Widespread confusion
By Steve Benen Sunday Jun 24, 2007 8:05amAs part of its cover story on "what you need to know now," Newsweek conducted a broad poll on a variety of political and cultural affairs. There were plenty of interesting results, but one section was particularly noteworthy.
Even today, more than four years into the war in Iraq, as many as four in ten Americans (41 percent) still believe Saddam Hussein's regime was directly involved in financing, planning or carrying out the terrorist attacks on 9/11, even though no evidence has surfaced to support a connection. A majority of Americans were similarly unable to pick Saudi Arabia in a multiple-choice question about the country where most of the 9/11 hijackers were born. Just 43 percent got it right -- and a full 20 percent thought most came from Iraq.
Perhaps most troubling, the number of people who are confused about Iraq's non-existent role in the 9/11 attacks has gone up in recent years. When Newsweek asked the same question in the fall of 2004, 36% said Saddam Hussein was "directly involved" with the attacks. Nearly three years later, that number is 41%.
Sure, Bush administration officials have been careless with their rhetoric, leading to some confusion. And sure, there were probably some Fox News viewers included in the poll, skewing the numbers.
But that still doesn't explain a result like this one.
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too many people causing too many problems...............
we're in a land of confusion........................
Sure, Bush administration officials have been careless with their rhetoric, leading to some confusion.
Careless with their rhetoric? Try deliberately misleading.
This is mindf*ck on a massive scale and the only way to combat it is to continually reiterate the truth.
Never underestimate the gullibility of the sheeple.
as far as finding saudi arabia on a map that's the individual's fault but confusing the source of 9-11 attacks misinformation comes directly from the bushies. how many people think that the attacks came from iran or egypt?
[Deleted. Please respect the siteowner's policy regarding conspiracy theories]
Yeah, how come for number 7 (To the best of your knowledge, has the U.S. found chemical or biological weapons hidden by Saddam Hussein’s regime since the Iraq war began in 2003?) the correct answer is listed as "No"?
I mean, how can there even BE a correct answer for that question at this time, and why would it be unambiguously No?
Point number one: Jason is a moron.
Point number two: The number of persons who have replaced land lines with cell phones has increased in the past three years, possible accounting of the skewing of the numbers.
Point number three: Bush is a moron, too, but in a different way than Jason.
That confusion may have this administration as it's source, but who is responsible for consistently disseminating that mis-info and therefore, in my mind anyway, just as responsible for the confusion?? Oh, it's Der Media...how many polls by newsgroups need to come out about this stuff before those so-called news groups actually try to do anything to reverse the confusion, like doing some real live reporting. The White House Press core let's these guys get away with an awful lot....wouldn't want to blow that ACCESS they have, because then the books they are all working on( on the newsgroups dime...), won't have as good of a chance in the marketplace
Why doesn't an organization like the Center for American Progress take out a series of TV commercials that present in a clear and concise fashion the basic facts regarding these issues? In 30 seconds or a minute it would certainly be possible to list the origin of the 19 hijackers and state definitively that Iraq was in no way involved. It would get the information out there, and it would take a truly brazen denial of reality for anyone to publicly disagree with them. Good luck getting Fox News to air the spots, but most other stations would pick them up I'm sure.
Um, regardning my comment
pbk @ 5:
The 7 should be a 5 and the text should be (From what you know about the situation, do you think the United States is losing the fight against al-Qaeda or radical Islamic terrorism?) instead of (To the best of your knowledge, has the U.S. found chemical or biological weapons hidden by Saddam Hussein’s regime since the Iraq war began in 2003?). The comment will make much more sense this way.
This isn't surprising. As a nation, we're fatter, dumber, and less compassionate than we were twenty five years ago. Rah, rah, NASCAR, bucket-o-gravy-and-Chicken Britney-24/7 has a way of doing that to us. Can't remember why . . .
Let's make it really easy: 80% of the U.S. public gets all of their news from television. What else do you need to know?
Confusion? Newsweek just sucks. John Mecheam is a lying idiot.
Breaking News!!! American's are uninformed about the important issues of the day...Thanks to Faux News and all of the other Info-Tainment outlets, CNN, MSNBC, pretty much any mainstream news agency, including most newspapers are working their best to bring you round the clock Paris news but for some reason won't run a single story about how we were lied into Iraq...and these assholes will says "it's not important how we got there, it's important to decide what to do now." yeah, well, the only option I can think of is to leave, give the Iraqi people and their government a buttload of money to make up for us breaking their country without a plan to fix it and we can move on to our next Republican abomination.
isn't it funny how the right attacks the "liberal media" for making shit up but they have no problem with American's being so ignorant they don't even know who attacked us when. I guess the correct answer if you want to know what country planned and financed 9/11 you wouldn't have to look very far past our own borders...even into our own White House.
c-mon people time to get smart...all the trouble in American begins and ends with Americans being more informed...which is why the Repugs don't what honest debate or even commentary
sheep are lazy and the msm and gop count on it
Connecting Iraq to 9/11 is emotional protection.
So strongly do people want America to be a just and righteous nation that they HAVE to believe Iraq was connected to 9/11. To believe they were lied to, that our nation is involved in a war of choice, is simply too hard to bear.
American soldiers dying simply so George and Dick could play "war prez" is a fact that is really just too hard, so believing 9/11 and Iraq are connected makes in reasonable. It makes this fiasco have a purpose. Alas, it does not.
The worst Iraq gets, the percentage of people who believe in that connection will probably only get larger. When it is over, and the wounds begin to heal, the people who believe Iraq and 9/11 were connected will slip to the single digits.
The constant conflation between Iraq and 9/11, both from Bush and now the rest of the GOP candidates like good ol' St. Rudy are keeping the false connection in mind, and are easily further propogated by the gushing press people like Guliani keep receiving, making their claims seem more 'trustworthy'.
Just goes to show you that we have a bunch of people who have no clue about thinking for themselves. They don't read or investigate anything they hear and if they do they are too stubborn to admit it when they are wrong. Sorta sounds like george bush, doesn't it?
Turn on American Idol and pass the Cheeto’s. Brain too tired to keep up with important stuff.
P.S. Like the WordPress
The Bush administration and its lap dogs in the so-called mainstream media bear virtually all the responsibility for this incredible situation. However, the Democratic presidential candidates and the national Democratic committee are doing little to correct the situation. Considering the amount of free press coverage that all of the major candidates—Obama, Clinton, and Edwards—get wherever they go, it would help enormously if all of them addressed this situation when speaking about national security, regardless whether they're speaking to the women's club in Dogscratch, Idaho, to Chris Matthews, or to the National Press Club in D.C.. And it won't take one speech or comment, but rather a sustained, planned, and consistently implemented assault on this fundamental factual ignorance. So long as major portions of the country believe that Iraq was involved in 9/11, it will be that much harder to convince voters in 2008 that the GOP has materially harmed our national security and should be held accountable.
I think many people are confused about who is responsible for 9/11. On a recent interview on CSPAN, Lewis Lapham mentioned that he was currently reading Debunking 9/11 Debunking: An Answer to Popular Mechanics and Other Defenders of the Official Conspiracy Theory by David Ray Griffin http://www.amazon.com/Debunking-11-Mechanics-Defenders-Conspiracy/dp/156...
Lapham said the author "raises a number of sharp questions... which I think deserve further questioning and investigation"
I'm thinking IGNORANCE explains a lot...just spend an hour each morning listening to WJ on C-Span if you need that confirmed. MY GOD, there were tons of callers today who actually believe that the right-wing radio hosts who spew their conservative/self-righteous hate crap are NOT influencing listeners because, as they see it, they are saying what THEY already think...DUH! There are none who will be so easily lead as those who have already checked their brains at the door...
debaser71 @ 12:
Sure, Bush administration officials have been careless with their rhetoric,************************************
No, they lied. Don't put lipstick on the pig, call the liars what they are.
The longer this fiasco drags on (Thank you Democrats), the more people need to believe that the deaths of 3500 Americans and hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, the total loss of America's status and moral authority, the utter rape of our economy, the debasement of our constitutional rights, and the takeover of our government by a cadre of de-facto dictators who have totally unchecked powers of domestic espionage and complete immunity to any and all laws they choose, was not just for the enrichment and bloodlust of a few oligarchs. There musta been a reason for all of this. THEY attacked us. Who is THEY? Whoever America says. Shut up and go back to worrying about the latest kidnapped white girl.
Depressing, but not surprising.
Lots of Elisabeth Hasselbecks walking around out there, with their heads way up their asses.
A perfect example of why public policy should not be set by public opinion. Just because people have been convinced to believe something is true, does not make it true.
Simply astounding !
I'm going to move to a country where less than 40% are as smart as a paper plate. This is a result of our current culture where intelligence is not valued, where "no child left behind" has resulted in uneducated kids.
Over the weekend I saw a report that said 48% of the citizens of Iceland believe in Newts and Trolls.
You don't need actual evidence. If the sponge minions see it on tv that's enough for them. If you polled the same people they'd probably tell you they are actively searching for the island where the "lost" characters are stranded.
The problem is not the media or the Bush Administration (not directly anyway). The problem is that Americans are into faith based reasoning. Just believe something to be true, facts or not needed. It's so much simpler than digging up the facts, and so much more satisfying since you never have to accept unpleasant truths.
Another fact perhaps not receiving sufficient attention: Coalition troops in Afghanistan have killed more civilians than the Taliban.
Of those who believe that Iraq is/was responsible for 9/11, how many of those people do you think still have a favorable view of Bush?
I'm guessing that these are the same people.
"careless with their rhetoric"
I disagree. I think they have been very careful with their rhetoric.
This is the same Bush administration that propagated the "I voted for it before I voted against it" lie on Kerry.
They knew what that meant. They knew there were separate bills, but they pretended that Kerry was "flip-flopping".
This administration isn't "careless" with their words - that's the only thing they ARE careful about.
The number of people who are confused about Iraq's role in 911 has gone up in proportion to the number of people watching Faux News. In fact, the number of people confused about reality itself has gone up...
I wish it were just, 9/11, but it is not, as this study makes clear:
If 48% of the population rejects the overwhelming scientific evidence for evolution, why is it so surprising that 41% reject evidence that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Acknowledging the former would require a re-examination of faith in god, the latter would require a re-examination of the notion of American goodness and exceptionalism.
Close to half the country is living in a state of denial and, with war in Iran looming, that is a dangerous state indeed.
What's even stupider is that all these right wing Republicans that WORSHIP Reagan, conveniently forget that Reagan was respondible for the 1986 Immigration bill, which was a failure, granting AMNESTY, and never securing the border.
Maybe Reagan wasn't so great.
[...] Korea Link to Article iraq Widespread confusion » Posted at Crooks and Liars on Monday, June 25, [...]
Jason @ 4:
Jesus Christ on a cracker. First of all, there was a bit more going on besides fire: (pic). Second of all, those cute pictures the 9/11 nuts show you of the "limited fires" are on the wrong side of the building. The fires were not small and localized and restricted to the 7th and 12th floors (pic). That's smoke pouring out of the building, not dust from the collapsing twin towers, as you can see from this unobstructed view (pic). Furthermore, the building did not neatly fall into its own footprint, the wreckage fell to a side as one might expect (pic). Here is a video of smoke clearly pouring out of WTC7.
But don't take my word for it. Listen to the firemen:
They told us to get out of there because they were worried about 7 World Trade Center, which is right behind it, coming down. We were up on the upper floors of the Verizon building looking at it. You could just see the whole bottom corner of the building was gone. We could look right out over to where the Trade Centers were because we were that high up. Looking over the smaller buildings. I just remember it was tremendous, tremendous fires going on. Finally they pulled us out. They said all right, get out of that building because that 7, they were really worried about. They pulled us out of there and then they regrouped everybody on Vesey Street, between the water and West Street. They put everybody back in there. Finally it did come down. From there - this is much later on in the day, because every day we were so worried about that building we didn't really want to get people close. They were trying to limit the amount of people that were in there. Finally it did come down.
-Richard Banaciski
The most important operational decision to be made that afternoon was the collapse had damaged 7 World Trade Center, which is about a 50 story building, at Vesey between West Broadway and Washington Street. It had very heavy fire on many floors and I ordered the evacuation of an area sufficient around to protect our members, so we had to give up some rescue operations that were going on at the time and back the people away far enough so that if 7 World Trade did collapse, we [wouldn't] lose any more people. We continued to operate on what we could from that distance and approximately an hour and a half after that order was [given], at 5:30 in the afternoon, World Trade Center collapsed completely.
-Daniel Nigro
Early on, there was concern that 7 World Trade Center might have been both impacted by the collapsing tower and had several fires in it and there was a concern that it might collapse. So we instructed that a collapse area be set up and maintained so that when the expected collapse of 7 happened, we wouldn't have people working in it. There was considerable discussion with Con Ed regarding the substation in that building and the feeders and the oil coolants and so on. And their concern was of the type of fire we might have when it collapsed.
-Frank Cruthers
Then we found out, I guess around 3:00 [o'clock], that they thought 7 was going to collapse. So, of course, [we've] got guys all in this pile over here and the main concern was get everybody out, and I guess it took us over an hour and a half, two hours to get everybody out of there. Oh, yes. We had Maydays like crazy.... The heat must have been tremendous. There was so much f*cking fire there. This whole pile was burning like crazy. Just the heat and the smoke from all the other buildings on fire, you [couldn't] see anything. So it took us a while and we ended up backing everybody out, and [that's] when 7 collapsed.... Basically, we fell back for 7 to collapse, and then we waited a while and it got a lot more organized, I would guess.
-William Ryan
A little north of Vesey I said, we'll go down, let's see what's going on. A couple of the other officers and I were going to see what was going on. We were told to go to Greenwich and Vesey and see what's going on. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn't look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn't look good.
...
So we gathered up rollups and most of us had masks at that time. We headed toward 7. And just around we were about a hundred yards away and Butch Brandies came running up. He said forget it, nobody's going into 7, there's creaking, there are noises coming out of there, so we just stopped. And probably about 10 minutes after that, Visconti, he was on West Street, and I guess he had another report of further damage either in some basements and things like that, so Visconti said nobody goes into 7, so that was the final thing and that was abandoned.
-Chris Boyle
Yeah. There was enough there and we were marking off. There were a lot of damaged apparatus there that were covered. We tried to get searches in those areas. By now, this is going on into the afternoon, and we were concerned about additional collapse, not only of the Marriott, because there was a good portion of the Marriott still standing, but also we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o'clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o'clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse.
...
No, not right away, and that's probably why it stood for so long because it took a while for that fire to develop. It was a heavy body of fire in there and then we didn't make any attempt to fight it. That was just one of those wars we were just going to lose. We were concerned about the collapse of a 47-story building there. We were worried about additional collapse there of what was remaining standing of the towers and the Marriott, so we started pulling the people back after a couple of hours of surface removal and searches along the surface of the debris. We started to pull guys back because we were concerned for their safety.
-Peter Hayden
By the way, did you know that there's never been a building in history taller than 26 stories that was demolished via implosion. Furthermore, controlled implosions require serious gutting of the building's infrastructure and take a large crew several weeks to do, even for buildings much smaller than WTC7. Here's an account of the aforementioned largest building ever imploded:
Mark Loizeaux, President of CDI, called Hudson's the greatest dynamic structural control challenge the company had ever faced. CDI had to sever the steel in the columns and create a delay system which could simultaneously control the failure of the building's 12 different structural configurations, while trying to keep the hundreds of thousands of tons of debris within the 420 ft by 220 ft footprint of the structure. CDI needed structural data to complete its design. Under CDI direction, Homrich/NASDI's 21 man crew needed three months to investigate the complex and four months to complete preparations for CDI's implosion design. During that period, the lower two basements of the structure were filled with engineered fill and the perimeter basement walls bermed to 1st basement level with soil to support perimeter walls which would surely have failed under soil and hydrostatic loads once the horizontal support of the Hudson's internal structure was removed by the implosion.
Double column rows installed in the structure between vertical construction phases, internal brick shear walls, x-bracing, 70 elevators and 10 stairwells created an extremely stiff frame. Columns weighing over 500 lb/ft, having up to 7.25 inch thick laminated steel flanges and 6 inch thick webs, defied commercially available shaped charge technology. CDI analyzed each column, determined the actual load it carried and then used cutting torches to scarf-off steel plates in order to use smaller shaped charges to cut the remaining steel. CDI wanted to keep the charges as small as possible to reduce air over pressure that could break windows in adjacent properties.
CDI's 12 person loading crew took twenty four days to place 4,118 separate charges in 1,100 locations on columns on nine levels of the complex. Over 36,000 ft of detonating cord and 4,512 non-electric delay elements were installed in CDI's implosion initiation system, some to create the 36 primary implosion sequence and another 216 micro-delays to keep down the detonation overpressure from the 2,728 lb of explosives which would be detonated during the demolition.
You don't just place a few little thermite packages on a couple support beams and press a button as you cackle maniacally.
[Deleted. 9/11conspiracy stuff here, and you know it-Sitemonitor]
test
Hank @ 32:
With all due respect, Hank, your own reasoning is inconsistent. The Bush administration is responsible for propagating the myth that Saddam Hussein was behind the 9/11 attacks, tactically eschewing the reality of the Saudi connection altogether. You are correct in assuming that Americans are blindly zealous, but the Bush administration exploited that obvious truth in a concerted effort to mislead this country. And apparently it's worked out pretty well.
Brainwashing accomplished!
Personally, I thought the finding that a majority of Americans were oblivious to the central role Saudi nationals played in the hijackings may be even more disturbing than the imagined connection to Saddam Hussein. Clearly, we have not even come close to grasping (much less internalizing) some of the most pertinent facts surrounding 9/11 and Al Qaeda. For a brief look at what I'm talking about, check out:
www.asecondlookatthesaudis.com
Given where we are at today, as alarmingly illustrated by that Newsweek poll, I don't think it is sufficient any longer to simply try and correct the record about Al Qaeda and Iraq. We have got to start shining a white hot spotlight on the Saudis and their incestuous relationship to the Cheney administration.
There's an obvious explanation for the 40+% who believe Saddam was responsible for 9/11.
If you add up all the crazy christian born-again evangelical fundamentalists, and the rapture-sodden whackos, and the demented 'believers in bush', you will come up with about 40+% of the population. If you look at a statistical distribution curve of IQ's, 40+% have IQ's of 80 or less. These folks are the same 40+%.
And this 40+% of the population lives by a faith-based 'reality', ignoring facts and truth in favor of figments and fables.
Just like our 'president'.
I guess my problem is I can not see how those numbers appear to be going up. I would think that the more the truth is out there the lower those numbers would be. Its as if, more people would rather believe that Hussein's regime was behind 9/11, even though all evidence points to the contrary, than to hold thier own Government to account for this falsehood. Some will even make up excuses or even conspiracy theories in a vain attempt to prove the U.S. Government right. You have to wonder if those people are trying to prove the Government right or if they are trying to prove those lies to themselves so that they do not have to confront the Government.
I can see where this will go years from now if this trend holds. Those same people will teach those same lies to their children and so on. It makes you wonder about history in general.
I think this is not surprising. For people who want to believe in Bush, they're going to cling harder to fantasies as the ship goes down. Sad, just sad.
Liberals, thank the Goddess everyday that you weren't born stupid and gullible.
Glenn Greenwald| BIO
Iran: The Next War?
Posted June 24, 2007 | 10:29 PM (EST)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following is an excerpt from Glenn Greenwald's new book, A Tragic Legacy: How a Good vs. Evil Mentality Destroyed the Bush Presidency, to be released by Crown Publishing this Tuesday. The book is available now at Amazon.
Reuters, February 23, 2007:
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said on Friday Iran should not show weakness over its nuclear program, a day after Tehran ignored a United Nations deadline to stop nuclear work which the West says could be used for making bombs. "If we show weakness in front of the enemy the expectations will increase but if we stand against them, because of this resistance, they will retreat."
New York Times, on former secretary of defense Donald Rumsfeld's farewell speech to the Pentagon, December 15, 2006:
"Today, it should be clear that not only is weakness provocative," Mr. Rumsfeld said, standing at a lectern with President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney at his side, "but the perception of weakness on our part can be provocative as well...
"A conclusion by our enemies that the United States lacks the will or the resolve to carry out missions that demand sacrifice and demand patience is every bit as dangerous as an imbalance of conventional military power," Mr. Rumsfeld said in a buoyant but sometimes emotional speech.
Even after the Bush Crime Family's lies were exposed, the mainstream media was/is all too willing to perpetuate them.
America is a Confederacy of Dunces.
Excellent point. I became engaged in a heated discussion last week with my next door neighbor concerning Iraq and the troops. She told me that Bush has always told the truth. I asked her how many of the hijackers on 09/11/01 were from Iraq. She replied that she did not know and had no response when I informed her that the correct answer was zero. But even after knowing that Iraq had no connection with the Sept. 11th attacks, she still believed that I must support the troops, despite the fact that their mission means brutalizing and terrorizing the Iraqi people. I tried to tell her that the best way to support those troops is to get them out of that abattoir as quickly as possible but my declaration fell upon deaf ears. I suppose that I should recall the line that Henry Fonda said to another juror in the classic film Twelve Angry Men "He [in this case she] can't hear you. He never will."
[Deleted. 9/11 conspiracy theories]
Erroll @ 52:
Methinks you should check your math a little bit.
It's not confusion - it's rationalization. A lot of good people just cannot except the fact that their own leaders forced them into a war by lying to them. So they have to justify it somehow.
what we have is another survey from a limited sample of the only people willing to answer another useless, pointless survey. It is self-serving in that the MSM will say that that is waht the people believe and/or want to hear, so the MSM must serve their 'market'.
As usual, the role of the MSM as fascist, corporatist stenographers is not even glossed over.
But how about bonus question 30: Do you consider yourself a Republican, Democrat, or Independent?
25% Republican
Now THAT is a good sign!
Dr. Acula @ 51:
No... more like a conspiracy of idiots.
elchip @ 53:
Considering that 50% of Americans do not know how long it takes for the Earth to orbit the Sun, and nearly the same number think that dinosaurs and humans existed at the same time... I'm not surprised.
theWalrus @ 55:
================================
It's deeper than that! Many people think America is justified by Manifest Destiny and White Priveledge. The secrets that dare not be made public.
Space Coyote @ 50:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
And they still do!
Blue Buddha @ 59:
The contempt that some of you guys seem to hold for the average American isn't very helpful. You win support by building bridges and educating, not being rude and mocking.
elchip @ 61:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
48% of elegible voters vote here (78% in France, whom we mock)
0.01% of americans are actually doing something to end this criminal regime - they are NOT Congress or the Senate
I think Blue Buddha has a salient point
another comment just got lost
ANOTHER COMMENT JUST WENT TO THE BIT BUCKET - AGAIN!!!
[Actually, BaScOmBe, they're being caught up in the spam filter. I got them out. Sorry-Sitemonitor]
What is even more frustrating is that many who oppose our presence in Iraq continue to refer to it as a WAR, including bloggers like C&L, Rawstory, Americablog, and more. It is not a war. It has not been a war since Chimpy declared all combat operations are over. Since then, it has been an OCCUPATION. It is an occupation to this day.
As long as people continue to refer to Iraq as a war, the right will feel justified in connecting it to the global war on terror, which it is not. They will continue to beat the Dems over the head with the issue of supporting the troops in a time of war. It is not a war, it is an occupation.
The only way we can shut it down is to frame it as the illegal occupation that it is. OCCUPATION not war. Occupation is a distasteful word, a negative word, but it is an accurate word, and the more we use it to describe Iraq, the faster we will end it.
Polls are crap.
How does this poll square with the poll that said 82% don't believe the government is telling the whole truth about 9/11?
Difficult to explain?
Naah.
The American People are the laziest SOBs on the planet. They take their democracy for granted. They swallow anything that is "sold" to them. They ask no questions, they show no curiousity for things that are actually important. They have more interest in knowing how much Pam Anderson paid for her implants, then what the war is costing them and where the money is going. They have more interest in missing white girls reported on the news, then the thousands of soldiers maimed or killed in Iraq. They damn the French for their political and economic systems, when they have no understanding of their own. They prefer to believe a lie repeated a thousand times than the truth spoken once, so long as the lie fits into the comfortable little bubble of their lives.
No it's very easy to explain. Simply look at our so-called President. A man easily confused, a man flumoxed by hard work deep concepts and views that conflict with his own simple value system. A country is a reflection of its leadership, and vice versa. That may never be more true than now.
This Administration has been on a steady course to De-Evolve it's citizens. There is a deliberate move to take us backward in our circle of knowledge. This is mostly the result of the administrations fight against science. They still will not acknowledge Global Warming, Want to teach that the Earth is only 6,000 years old, that man and dinosaurs existed at the same time, that somehow using on-hand embryonic material (that would be destroyed anyway) for the common good of mankind is against their gods teachings, that America is a Christian Nation (when actually people came here to escape that and have religious freedom)
Folks, unless we can turn things around in this country come the end of 2008, then we, those of us who have been here for a few years, have witnessed what appears to be the end of Democracy in America. The new Supreme court is busy right now whittling away the very rights we have fought for over the last 200 odd years.
Meanwhile it is still possible to just walk across the boarders of America, We have a Religious Fundamentalist who thinks god spoke in his ear, and Every one of the people running for GOP Presidential office (save three) don't believe in evolution and think being Gay is a choice.
Is it time to get rid of these folks? Will America save itself?
I'm lucky because I'M 70 years old and got to live in this country when it was still a country of Laws and the Laws were respected. This is not the case now.
Liberal AND Proud @ 62:
You speak the truth...well said, thank you.
[Deleted. Please respect the siteowner's policy regarding the discussion of alternative 9/11 theories]
IMO the way the numbers break down seems typical of what I've read that is caused by socialization. People choose to believe the things that they think that their leaders believe because of how humans conform to their society. With that theory, the opinion polls for that segment of the population will reverse once the government changes.
Sure, Bush administration officials have been careless with their rhetoric, leading to some confusion.
"Careless?" Um. No. I think it was a little more of Darth Cheney's "sometimes you have to work in the shadows" kind of INTENTIONALLY MISLEADING rhetoric.
Elchip at #52
Check my math? 15 of the 19 hijackers on Sept. 11, 2001 were from Saudi Arabia. The other four were, I believe, from Yemen. Not one of those hijackers was from the country of Iraq. It is amazing and stunning that there are still people out there like you and my neighbor, even after almost six years after those hijackings of those airplanes had taken place, that still wish to make this mythical connection of 09/11 to Iraq.
Liberal AND Proud @ 62:
Well put and I agree.
First, I can’t help being reminded once more of an old saying: “It ain’t what you don’t know that worries me as much as what you do know that just ain’t so.” Personally I’m worried by both, but the distinction should be kept in mind. The former derives mostly from a lack of access to or interest in education and information; the latter mostly from leaders and opinion makers who are lazy, deluded, and/or deceitful.
Second, I think Rob makes an excellent point, the foundation of which is that we should also make a distinction between knowledge and belief, however fuzzy that distinction might be. Why do so many people believe that the earth is only 6-10 thousand years old? Subconsciously, a lot of them must surely feel they have to, because their parents, teachers, and religious leaders have combined to convince them that their system of religious beliefs is like a pyramid of oranges in a grocery store: taking away just one piece of the system (like the age of the earth or Mary’s virginity) would be like taking away just one orange from the bottom level of the pyramid. The whole structure would collapse.
Third, a follow-up, one of the reasons those returning from the war have cited as causing depression, sleeplessness, etc. (sometimes in suicide notes, alas) is that they went there believing they were engaged in a noble cause and then discovered that in fact they were engaged in something pointless, inhumane, and utterly horrible. As Rob suggests, it’s likely that one reason the numbers of Americans believing that Iraq threatened and then attacked us is that to accept the truth would be experience the same shattering disillusionment that’s destroying the lives of many returning troops.
P.S. Glenn Greenwald has a good piece on how, starting a couple of weeks ago, the military in Iraq began referring falsely to every group they were fighting as “al Quaida” rather than truthfully as “insurgents,” “sunnis,” “shi’a.” And guess what? The MSM are happily repeating the lies, without challenge. How do you suppose that will affect Newsweek’s next poll?
"careless"???
deliberate.
The MSM are happily repeating the lies, without challenge. How do you suppose that will affect Newsweek’s next poll?
This is the crux of the issue. Is it bad reporting due to the fact that reporters don't want to refer to earlier proclamations of the leaders and call them on it, or is it conspiracy wrought by the station owners themselves who are doing the bidding of the Administration.
It is this lack of transparency that leads to conspiracy theories. I have my own view on this, which I need not bore you with. It is however, the essence of what is wrong with our democracy.
Bush Bites @ 2:
I totally agree. Repeat a LIE over and over and it becomes truth in many lazy minds.
"But that still doesn't explain a result like this one."
Stupid people, they're everywhere...but they don't know they're stupid.
Better wide spread confusion than wide spread contusions.
But not as good as wide spread thighs.
[...] a post on Crooks and Liars Steve Benen writes about the results of a recent poll published by Newsweek: Widespread confusion By: Steve Benen on [...]
Mr. Benen,
I disagree with your characterization of the bushco administration talking-ponts as "careless rhetoric". It was anything but careless. It was highly orchestrated and drummed into our brains 24/7 for years. The sheeple ate it up and swallowed it whole. Why should anyone be surprised at these poll numbers?
Have you not learned yet that when "authority" says something is so, it is so. (snark)
P.S. Glenn Greenwald has a good piece on how, starting a couple of weeks ago, the military in Iraq began referring falsely to every group they were fighting as “al Quaida” rather than truthfully as “insurgents,” “sunnis,” “shi’a.” And guess what? The MSM are happily repeating the lies, without challenge. How do you suppose that will affect Newsweek’s next poll?
If Chimp’s administration and the Pentagon continue to use al Queda the way they do, it will loose its true meaning and just become a generic word for anyone that is troublesome or a nuisance. Using Chimpspeak, big city police could start calling local gangbangers ‘al queda cells.’
'Have you not learned yet that when “authority” says something is so, it is so."
Followed by an Amen and Hallelujah from the pulpit of the Religious Right truth is Dead before it is born.
Considering 38% of Americans also identify themselves as “born again” or evangelical Christians I guess it's not to surprising about the same number would blindly follow the word of Cheney, Bush and the right-wing pundits who have been using insinuations and even blatant lies to blur the distinction between reality and the sad state these people live in. It may be harsh or judgemental of me to believe it is the same group of people in these catagories and I'd be curious to see if this is correct or not.
If C+L has a problem with a fulsome discussion of the events of 9/11, I just wish they would stop posting stories related to 9/11 altogether.
There can be no rational point whatsoever to complain about BushCo and the American peoples ignorance regarding the bait and switch of Iraq and 9/11 if all that can be acceptable here is BushCo's version of 9/11.
Based on experience and historical facts, I have a general aversion to accepting anything BushCo wants me to believe. The "official conspiracy theory" is the only point of agreement between C+L and BushCo as far as i can tell and I find that odd.
Why should it be surprising that the American citizen is ignorant and confused about everything when so much can't be freely discussed whenever and wherever the mood strikes, be it abortion, 9/11, race, religion, borders etc. Are the American people not all living in little thought bubbles where they have to be careful about what they say and to who they say it to? Can this be healthy for democracy?
I sincerely hope to meet the terrific staff of C+L in a Official Government Sanctioned Free Speech Zone one day where, just maybe, I can find out what's really going on in America today.
[...] statistical study is depressing. As part of its cover story on “what you need to know now,” Newsweek conducted a broad poll on [...]
The Bush Administration has been careless with their rhetoric concerning Saddam's participation in the 9/!! what a fucking joke that is How about have outright lied in order to justify what they thought would be an easy grab for oil
Only people dumber than Bush are the people that voted for him. Majority (supposedly) of Americans voted for him. Were they Confused about Iraq, I don't think so. They were sold Iraq like an Erectile Disfunction drug, and Karl and Dick are excellent salesmen. All evidence points to us crapping in our pants on this one, but America wants to stay and fight, and not only that, they want to put a fortified Embassy in Bagdad and four military bases there, assuring that the occupants of the Middle east will stay pissed off and continue to terrorize us and our kids for generations to come. Only bright spot is that I doubt we will in my lifetime find a bigger idiot to elect President
But that still doesn’t explain a result like this one.
I'll explain it. At least 40% of the people in the U.S. are fucking idiots. See? Not complicated at all.
Remember a few ago when a major university parterned with Knowledge Network and did a study that showed that PBS viewers were the most informed TV viewers and FOX News viewers were the least. CNN and MSNBC shared the middle ground. Perhaps, if a news network like FOX has a viewership where only gets 20% of their facts are correctly passed on to the viewer, the FCC might look at their license renewel and mandate some improvements. Shouldn't the news being reported as truthful fact actually be truthful fact? The FCC is concerned about pornography. Networks like FOX that repeatedly and intentionally mislead are a pornography of information harming the decision making abilities of the nation.
"Newsweek" should perhaps re-name their magazine "All You Need to Know" - or "Whatever We Choose to Tell You Is All You Need to Know". That's, in essence, the wider "media" problem we've got in this country. We will have it as long as there's no "fairness doctrine", and as long as there is corporate ownership of the media. The "infotainment" news shows create smoke, never light.
The trouble is, they "think" all we want to hear about is Paris Hilton - though, I can't name one single person I know who gives the remotest damn about her - not even in passing.
The Media shoulders a lot of the blame for the "fact free" brains of the American Public - but the real problem is.....the American Public, who must be the most willfully ignorant and proud of it, infantile, self-regarding narcissists on the planet. They aren't just ignorant of events - they're ignorant of basic civics-class facts about how their government functions, they know nothing about history, geography, world events, or social science. They are blind, insular rubes who know nothing of the world around them, and are singularly incurious about it.
I haven't the faintest idea what the solution is - because if self-interest can't make them pay attention, I really don't know what the hell will.
elchip, elchip, you must be the same one from Fark, no?
How long have you been lurking around these parts?
From the moment I noticed the extent to which "Al Qaeda" was what the press was calling just about every bomb explosion in Iraq, I figured it was part of the disinformation that is being given out to counter arguments that the Iraq war never should have happened.
I once emailed an NYT reporter in Baghdad, asked him where he got his info that AQ was responsible the latest bombing. He emailed back that it came from the military, not an independent source, but he was vague and curt. I emailed back to him asking for more specific info and never got a response except for a defensive "who are you and why do you want this information?" Only satisfaction was that his report changed slightly in its updated posting to the NYT website, removing several AQ references.
So we should be actively concerned about how every molecule of information is processed -- just who does the masticating and salivating before it's shoved down our throats. I use that image thanks to inspiration from the noisy family in the swallows' nest in the eave outside my office window...
I didn't realize that 4 of 10 Americans lived under rocks!
Considering 38% of Americans also identify themselves as “born again” or evangelical Christians I guess it’s not to surprising about the same number would blindly follow the word of Cheney, Bush and the right-wing pundits who have been using insinuations and even blatant lies to blur the distinction between reality and the sad state these people live in. It may be harsh or judgemental of me to believe it is the same group of people in these catagories and I’d be curious to see if this is correct or not.
Quote This Comment June 25th, 2007 at 9:14 AM - PDT
Stupid Git
Actually considering most Southern Fried Christians are authoritarians, the authority of the Bible, the authority of their preacher etc, it's not surprising they blindly follow leaders. Afterall in general, they're used to practicing faith, not reason.
Willful blindness...
what is the margin of error? 36 to 41 is probably close to the error margin...
Chuck Says:
I concur. It is blindingly obvious that 9/11 conspiracy theories are, at the very least, plausible and possibly undeniable.
BaScOmBe @ 64:
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thanks! I'd still like to find a way to avoid the spam filter. I changed the website from tinyurl. I yahoo(my email) catching?
Polls like this are why I support strict gun control - I shudder at the thought of individuals of this mental caliber walking around packing heat.
[Start your own site-Sitemonitor]
I keep tellin' ya, that's just how really fucking stupid many Americans are!!!!
What I found most funny, is that they have the "correct" answer in bold ... which is no.
The only possible explanation is that we are a nation of uninformed dumb fucks who deserve the everlasting enmity of the rest of the world. We could very likely point out this area called "the rest of the world" but we have been unable to locate the exit from the mall parking lot.
Hey, why hasn't the MSM hailed the Democratic Congress for increasing its Gallup Poll job approval rating from 14% to 24% (that's a TEN POINT increase, up 72%!) in just the ten days from June 4 to June 14?! The MSM certainly made plenty of noise when the Democratic Congress' month-over-month job approval rating fell from 54% to 44% in a poll. Why so silent on this tremendous rise in their job approval rating over a much shorter period of time?
LOL! Actually, that's a trick question.
The answer is because this Democratic Congress NEVER HAD a Gallup Poll job approval rating as low as 14%, although you certainly would have thought they did by listening to the MSM. In fact, the lowest job approval rating on record for any Congress in that Gallup Poll was the previous Republican Congress at 16% approval.
(solution to the trick question: That 14% Gallup Poll rating wasn't a job approval rating. It was something called a "confidence" rating where respondants were asked to rank 16 pre-determined institutions in terms of their "confidence" in them. It had nothing to do with a job approval vs disapproval rating. But the MSM made no effort to clarify that distinction with a real difference. And now you know how bogus that "liberal" MSM moniker is.)
Where did you get the "36%" in 2004?
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/0...
[Deleted. Off topic conspiracy theory]
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