Michael Moore vs Sanjay Gupta
By John Amato Tuesday Jul 10, 2007 8:25am
Michael Moore meets up with Dr. Gupta on Larry King to air out their differences because of a "fact check" segment Sanjay did about "Sicko" that Moore took exception to with Wolf Blitzer. Gupta did admit to an error regarding in his piece about claiming Moore said the per capita spending on health care in Cuba was $25 instead of $251...
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By the end of their segment, despite Gupta trying to pull the whole "no system is perfect, so why even try?" argument, they do end up agreeing with each other on the larger issue---health care reform. I hope CNN will stop running this segment.
Adam Howard: "As Gupta tries to defend his clearly biased report by claiming Moore has "cherry-picked" his numbers (a typical tactic employed by Moore's right-wing detractors), Moore explains that all of his figures are from 2007 and were generated from President Bush's Health and Human Services
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Gupta is a total fraud. His report was filled with factual errors and Moore rightly smacked him down. The decaying corpse called Larry King attempted the usual false balance without any confrontation of Gupta's factual inaccuracies.
Maybe I'm biased, but Moore looked great and CNN looks like the apologist shill that it is.
cnn won't stop trying to get back at M.Moore for his treatment of Wolf.
Just like Wolf tried to protect the 'credentials' of gupta, cnn will do their hit pieces to provide reichwing talking points, er, 'balance'.
larry king has to bone his young wife with his toung!
This guy is the most annoying MD since C. Everett Koopta.
I don't know, I'm mostly with Moore on this one but it did sound as though he selected the statistics that made his point in the best way possible, since he took one from the Health and Human Services stats and apparently elsewhere from an unsourced BBC report, something Moore didn't respond to directly.
He also spent too much time acting indignant in the interview when I do think Gupta was attempting to have a straight conversation with him.
Dr. Gupta, I hope you're able to shake off the monetary anesthesia from your conscience.
I wish Larry King would just wither up and turn to dust and blow away.
Moore will be swiftboated. How dare he confront insurance companies, big pharma, and bundles of cash to the Congress. How dare he!!
what I especially love about this is that Moore shows cnn repeatedly lying.
gupta: "just because you say it's wrong doesn't make it so."
king: "I just want to have balance." (I'm really just a piece of schitt trying to cover cnn's ass.)
moore: "you've lied even after I gave you the data!"
summary: cnn sux schitt and is useless as a source of information and not that good at infotainment either
I would strapulate that if Moore had not used statistics from Health and Human services, he would have been accused of not using the latest statistics -- hmm.... maybe not .... since the outlook is not positive?
Hey, is President Bush being overlooked here? Heckuva job Bush! Heckuva job repugs!
U.S. Big Box Medical Profits Racket (Docs in a Box)
"Kill me now or kill me later. We just want to "fu*k . . . you up"
Larry King telling Michael Moore not to interrupt? That's rich! Larry King is one of the worst interviewers alive, and one of the main reasons is that he interrupts his guests incessantly.
One of the main points that Gupta made was that Mike didn't disclose that Cuba was number 39 on the list. Mike brought up the fact that they showed the clip from the movie that actually shows Cuba under the US and they covered it up with the CNN Crawl. They went to break and it did not come up again.
to whoever mentioned it above: C. Everett Koop is very annoying - not to mention he looks like some comic book villian and is ugly as hell
and yea, Larry King is just a big joke at this point
the whole Michael Moore smack down of Wolf the other day was great, but this Larry King "debate" sucked - first off Larry only gave them a little bit of time because he had a stupid segment amount some tabloid story about a crazy husband and wife - and it also sucked because Larry doesn't know how to host a intelligent debate
Moore is trying to talk about the issues and yet Larry can only think to ask Gupta "did you like the movie"
Also Moore didn't do that good during this show and was at one point speechless - he was not at his best like he was on Wolf - he seemed tired
I thought the best point Moore made was: no matter
what the personal tax difference or waiting times are in other countries relative to the
U.S., the important point was that they did have health insurance,
and were not walking around with an estimated 45 million people with no
heath insurance at all one step away from financial ruin.
Hell, I am self employed and pay over 20% of my income for health insurance.
I can sit over an hour waiting to see my doctor, and have waited over 6 hours to get a
specialized eye exam that I had an appointment scheduled 4 months in advance because
that was the only open time.
This constant 'people don't wait for health care in America' rant is B.S.
Alex @ 5:
Oh c'mon.. you're playing right into what the corporate world wants you to play into.. focusing on one small part vs. looking at the overall message. HMO's and insurance companies throw millions out each year in campaign contributions and PR for exactly this type of thing. Isn't the basic message of "our health care is screwed up and nobody is doing anything about it" enough when everyone agrees almost all the figures in the movie are basically accurate?
Gupta's John Stosselist shitck is getting old. Every day another Cato Institute talking point from him
michael has gonads to not only go up against gupka and the lies perpetrated by the cnn report. he not only stands up against the doctor but he has to go up against another media whore in larry king. mike holds his own.
Well so much for "The Most Trusted Name in News".
Moore KO'd them.
I liked when Larry King was trying to imply that the $1400 difference was not so singificant anyway, so why was Michael upset? But if it wasn't significant why was it brought up as a significant discrepency by CNN? Moore comes off well, because the other side is admitting one mistake, but actually the paying field was not even level because no one contextualized what is going on: CNN tried to find errors in a two hour movie, and so claimed that 1% of the movie was wrong, but then in their three minute "fact check" something like a third of the numbers were wrong!
Two people using different sources. This problem happens every minute of every day. Everybody picks their own sources to support their own biases.
Both agree on the underlying problem. But everyone gets their panties in a wad over the data argument.
Neither side appears credible when they spew real facts from different sources about the same subject.
This isn't anything more than Moore and Gupta promoting their own personal brands.
I like them both equally.
Kick ass Michael!
I really like it when Moore puts the ethical question to Gupta about querying a patient's provider before being able to perform surgery, that was fantastic. Moore gets my respect from how he handled the situation being sandwiched between the unempathetic King and the selectively deaf Gupta, and for his clear explanation of the difference between receiving hospital services from taxes, and paying for it.
It walks like a suit. Talks like a suit.
First Lou Dobbs mistakes 30 years for 3 years.
Now "Dr." Gupta mistakes $251 for $25.
For an "objective" news organization, they do seem to have a predilection for Pres. Bush's fuzzy math.
The last discussion about Medicare/Medicade was set up by Bush and the Repugs under Dr. Bill Frist to fail.
They created a market driven "loss leader" in order to keep the Drug Companies fat and happy.
Under the Frist bill Big Pharma will rake in $billions and WE will foot the bill.
What an odd question Dr. Gupta threw out there at the end.
I was struck by the front page image on the CNN web site and posted on C&L. Gupta is smiling and prim, whereas Moore is frowning and frumpy. Could there be a more blatant bias? Granted, Gupta is their guy, but one of the pillars of our government is an objective press. This no longer exists.
Why doesn't CNN grill our elected representatives like they grilled Moore?
Larry King's definition of balanced is starting to look more and more like Bill O'Reilly's.
Unfortunately, in my opinion, the "debate" was a draw...but ONLY because
Larry King is such an awful interviewer and seems more interested in covering
CNN's butt and/or being sure that the commercials ran on time.
Moore's list of grievances against CNN(in regards to Sicko, only):
http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/news/article_10017.php
Moore chose his stats specifically to follow the narrative of his movie.
Gupta chose his stats specifically to balance Moore's.
The problem was Gupta's assumption was that Moore's stats must be wrong or weighted and Gupta (including his staff) were either very lazy or intentionally misleading in confirming the source and authenticity of Moore's facts. Any truly professional journalist, which Gupta is, wouldn't have made as many factual errors as he did on a piece ABOUT fact checking.
I'm not too impressed Moore's stats came from the Bush White House, but, I guess if they didn't they would be picked apart even more.
Michael spanked his points out of the park.
@5:
I found it VERY interesting that Gupta criticised Moore for his Cuba figures...yet JUST corrected the figures to match Moore's own numbers. In other words - the number was right, you just got it from the BBC. WTF?
Oh, and the bit about Medicare....Was Gupta assuming that all Americans would instantly be given health care under Medicare? That would so significantly impact the program that the claim that it will be bankrupt is a baseless claim. The system would require such huge retooling that the current system can't be compared.
Any truly professional journalist, which Gupta is, wouldn't have made as many factual errors as he did on a piece ABOUT fact checking/
Sorry, I must DISagree....Gupta, a "professional journalist"....No Way Jose !!!
This is a good way to keep talk of another carrier being sent to the Persian Gulf off of the news channels. Heck, even Dan Abrams of MSNBC ridiculed Michael Moore last night on his show, but had zilch to say about the naval buildup off the coast of Iran.
Just a point of reference: I do not watch CNN, FOXNews or MSNBC for enlightenment, but for entertainment.
Moore just spent the last few years investigating the state of health care in this country. He's no dummy. He quickly sees through B.S. and is able to convey, through his films, when people are less than sincere. Gupta had that look through most of the interview, as if he were trying to look thoughtful and sympathetic while never really admitting that everything in his "hit" piece was factually wrong. It's clear that Gupta is a tool; another example of media gone wrong. Moore was restrained and dealt with the situation appropriately. I don't understand why Larry King is lionized in some circles. He's a notch below Tom Snyder as most annoying interviewer. Insisting on "balance" when one side is completely unbalanced is a commonly used rovian rightwing tactic meant to give weight to outlandish, delusional viewpoints.
Orwell's Illegitimate Son @ 36:
However, Keith O. did a bang up job covering the same topic on MSNBC; but that is
not a surprise since KO seems to always "tell it like it is."
Its kind of sad that two smart people promote ideas on different areas simultaneously.
Moore says Canadian Health care is free. He doesn't clearly acknowledge the tax connection - which if he did would support his cause that its cheaper - but he would have to acknowledge its not free.
Gupta says Medicare will go bankrupt. No it won't - our premiums will simply go up to cover the true costs.
I used to live in Canada and now I live in Texas.
Here are the highlights from my EXPERIENCE.
1. Its shameful anyone has to risk bankruptcy or jeopardy treatment for care in the US.
2. Treatment in Canada is subject to PROVINCIAL insurance authorization, vs. PRIVATE INSURERS in the US. Both systems make mistakes. Both systems eliminate the physician. Ask a doctor in either country, he will confirm this.
3. Wait lists in the US are shorter. This is a very big deal. My Dad has been diagnosed with Prostate Cancer in Canada. Its now 6 weeks since his original diagnosis and he can't get an APPOINTMENT to define his radiation treatment. Here he would have COMPLETED his radiation treatment in the same 6 weeks.
The truth is neither system is perfect. Both systems has costs that are extraordinarily high. In the US the general philosophy is private over public.
I don't like the fact that admin costs and profit in private health care are so high compared to the Canadian system. But I also don't like wait lists that place my Dad's health in jeopardy.
If I had the choice, I'd send $5,000 to the Canadian system in the tax I save here to pay for his appointment to get treatment. BUT I DON'T HAVE THE OPTION. At the end of the day, both solutions suck.
Why not get these two bright people off the fact check crap and onto providing some framework for building the necessary consensus for defining a solution? That's where Mr. King lost the opportunity.
All these comments about who scored more "points" on each other are just as shameful as either healthcares system shortcomings.
I'm very disappointed in Dr Gupta. I know he knows better. What a letdown.
Gupta claimed he had no contact with "sponsors" for his "report"...but I wonder if he has speaking fees, honorarium or research cash in his pocket from Big Pharma or HMO?? Hmmmm.
MarkC @ 20:
Without the specific numbers at hand, that $1400 dollars is at least a 20% difference.
I just wish Michael would have said something to the effect of "Hey, I made a 2 hour movie that presents an entertaining view of the problems with our health care system and some of the advantages of other heath care systems, when possible I used HHS numbers...if they weren't available I used other numbers(which are available for you to check)....I do not have the available time to cite every possible statistic about health care in other countries, as that would make a damn long and a damn boring movie. I am starting a dialoge about health care in this country. If Cnn would like for me to discuss this in more detail....write me a check and give me a show and we can bring every detail possible to this debate." or something like that.
Gupta has also repeatedly parroted the false statement that studies have found no link between vaccines and autism.
Doggiebobo:
I'd watch Keith O. if he would stop doing the dumb fluff and truly be the *real* journalist he apparantly wants to or thinks he is. His crying that "my producers make me do it" just doesn't cut it, and it hasn't for a while. If he doesn't have the clout by now to determine what does and doesn't make it onto his program, then he still can't be seen as a true news journalist.
Alex @ 5:
I don't know what you were watching.
Did you notice how larry only cut off Moore to let goopta spew lies?
Do you think after Moore sent them his information, that cnn should run the hit piece again?
Do you think after Moore explained that he sent the information that larry or goopta would at least have acknowledged it?
How many times should Moore have to repeat that his number are from the boosh admin for 2007?
What is wrong with Moore citing his sources? How is that 'cherry picking?
You read like a 'concern troll' with an anti-Moore agenda. Are you?
Gupta was given all MM's sources prior to the report.
Gupta then cherry-picked a few where he could distract the conversation from the massive failures in our system to whether Cubans pay $200 or $250 a year, and whether Americans pay $7000 or $8000 a year (to be 2 spots ahead of Cuba).
Sanjay is the cherry-picker in this battle. Sanjaya would have done a better job.
Is it me or does that guy's eyebrow endlessly drift up his forehead as though it was independent of his face?
andy @ 39:
You must have missed Moore indicating he acknowledge that taxes are higher in Canada,
France & Germany, and the "free" part he was attempting to make clear pertained to
the fact that we here in the U.S. have to pay the deductibles/co-pays/etc. whereas
that is NOT a cost/expense required in other countries in order to obtain medical care.
Hopefully CNN will start "fact checking" the Mann Coulter's of the world when they come on air to pimp new books.
Gupta is being willfully ignorant, not to mention a smarmy @sshole. He underestimates the intelligence of people who've seen the movie, and tries, unsuccessfully, to skim over points he blatantly falsified or ignored, in favor of semantics. Gupta's definitely paid to bark by CNN and their Pharma sponsors. If you watch his expression, Gupta isn't interested in correcting the record, but throwing as much silt into the water to run out the clock.
What-A-Tool.
Doggiebobo @ 35:
There's blame to spread around at CNN. Gupta had at least one producer workin' with him. And doesn't CNN employ fact-checkers to vet stories independently of the production teams?
you can see the hearing with sarah taylor on c-span 3 now
Alex @ 5:
It's a red herring. You use the best sources possible. For the US you have the numbers right from Health and Human Services. But the US government does not provide numbers for Cuba and anything from the Cuban government is suspect so the BBC is about as good a source as is available. But why should he use the BBC for his figures on the US when we have US government sources for that? It's a back handed way to intimate that the movie is somehow suspect and biased. It's a totally cynical attempt to obscure the real issues raised in the film with phony critiques of process and methodology.
pissed off patricia @ 53:
Thanks, p.o.p.! Headin' there now. Hopefully John or Nicole wil post a thread fer it(hint, hint).
Perhaps Gupta outsourced his "fact" checking over to India.
1) CNN has had decades to examine the flaws in the American system, to fairly evaluate the success of other universal care systems, to interview the conressional representatives, and to demand answers from the HMO's and insurance companies. The have done none of it.
2) Now that Moore has opened the debate, reflected the problem back on Americans, shown them alternatives, and done real journalistic work, CNN turns its guns on Moore and whether he should have quoted the WHO or the BBC cause his statistics might be 1% point off.
The real question is the following: What exactly was the point of their report if not to discredit Moore?
It was the worst kind of gotcha journalism.
If CNN wanted to do a "Reality Check", they might have interviewed a couple of health management CEO's about why they declined to pay for treatment in the cases of clients who later died. They might have interviewed the directors of the hospitals in LA who have been dumping patients in skid row. They might have reported on the profits that the HMOs make, or asked politicians about the ethics of accepting donations from those same HMOs. They might have gone to Canada, France, and the UK and asked a cross section of their people about the benefits and drawbacks of socialized medicine.
But that would have been real journalism, would have extended the debate, and would have cost money.
How much easier to troll through some government websites, find a few statistics that vary from Moore's by insignifigant amounts, and then accuse him as "fudging facts."
The whole exercise was lazy, specious, unjustified, juvenile and has more to do with schoolyard taunts than journalism. CNN should be ashamed.
No Larry, it's not another topic. Its all related. As long as we keep spending money blowing up people in Iraq, we won't have money to spend on things like social security, medicare, and education. IT'S NOT ANOTHER TOPIC
Do you really think that CNN would have corrected their errors or admitted any mistakes if Michael Moore didn't protest and confront them with evidence?......... Come on.
Mike's right. They didn't apologize for their war reporting. Are they going to let you know that they are biased to coddle their corporate advertisers?
Gupta and his producers were given info about their faulty reporting days before Mike was on Wolf's show. Gupta was saving his slick little reporting job.
Go to MichaelMooore.com and check out the right-wing profile of that so-called expert Gupta invited on the anti-SICKO piece. Lets see. He works for a corporate medical industry lobbying group which is owned by Bush's ex-Sec. of Health & Welfare. Also, Mike has the photo copy of his campaign contribution to the Republican cause in Tennessee.
Mike Moore's staff is much more thorough, than Gupta's close-but-no-cigar superficial journalism.
Mike's hitting two birds with one stone by exposing the dirt on 1) America's lousy health care system, and 2) what is jokingly called news offered by the main stream media.
pissed off patricia @ 53:
Thanks!
First impression: she could eat the commitee for breakfast.
Jeff @ 58:
Exactly...were we not spending $12Million each week in Iraq, those funds would be
available, and much better spent, on providing universal health care for ALL.
I hope the brouhaha over Dr. Gupta's dishonest hit piece on Sicko encourages
more people to see the film. He should be fired from CNN for the arrogant
dishonesty that he has displayed over the past two days, but he'll probably
just get another show as he has proven that he can brazen out his mistakes. Larry King and Blitzer showed how they are willing to back
and support their fellow "journalist" no matter the facts.
I hope for his patients sake that Gupta is a better neurosurgeon than journalist.
baby jesus wonders why roads are so important to humans?
all the humans pitch in money so all can have roads, why are roads
more important than health?
baby jesus is soon going to clean the slate and start over with some single
celled creatures who are much easier to manage.
It is terribly sad when a physician goes up in front of people and lies. Much like everyone in our justice department that has agreed to violate law and subvert justice for profit, Gupta does not belong as a member of the world's doctors, for he has no credibility.
If he had any pride or sense of self worth as a person, compared to a spokes pie hole, he would go back to helping people and stop spewing nonsense and lying for those bribing him to do so
I hope the AMA has punitive arrangements for serial liars.
Freaked-Out Canadian @ 57:
I agree with you Canadian.
Keith Olbermann has a great segment on the Moore vs. cnn issue
It's worthwhile and has some insight from the inimitably intelligent Rachel Maddow!
Sanjay got some gupta on his face.
“no system is perfect, so why even try?”
Yeah, people are going to die anyway. What's all this hubbub about keeping them alive longer? They should just pay money for nothing!
Here's another out right lie that Dr. Gupta said on the show:
Michael Moore: "The one expert you had in the piece is a person from a think tank group, who is a big Republican contributor, he's done business with Blue Cross, with Aventis ... don't you have a right as a journalist, a responsibility actually, to tell the public when you're using an expert: this person is a Republican, he's with a think tank that's connected to Tommy Thompson, you know..."
Dr. Sanjay Gupta: "His only affiliation is with Vanderbilt University. We checked it, Michael."
Well Guess what? I found that hacks resume on-line and he indeed started a company that created software for the health insurance companies! Here's a link to this clowns on line resume:
http://www.owen.vanderbilt.edu/vanderbilt/data/faculty/189cv.pdf
Here's and excerpt:
1998-2002 Founder and Chief Executive Officer EBM Solutions Inc., Nashville, Tennessee
EBM Solutions is a software application used by health plans, hospitals and medical groups to integrate evidence-based guidelines into care management applications. EBM Solutions guidelines were built on an object-based data structure that could be seamlessly integrated into various applications such as hand-held devices, electronic records, and telephony, et al
• Creation of the Founders Consortium composed of Vanderbilt, Duke, Emory, Washington University, and Oregon Health Sciences University that oversee all clinical guidelines and intellectual properties of the company with (1) perpetual use of these institutional brands for use in care management with licensees, (2) perpetual ownership of all intellectual property and derivatives thereof by EBM Solutions, and (3) active involvement of these institutions in the ongoing strategy and operation of the company. NOTE: The role of the Academic Consortium is central to the operation of EBM Solutions: to date, 171 faculty members at these institutions have made contributions to the guideline management program of the company.
So Sanjay lied again!
Further Moore made the charge, "don't you have a right as a journalist, a responsibility actually, to tell the public when you're using an expert: this person is a Republican, he's with a think tank that's connected to Tommy Thompson, you know..."
What is the truth? You can find it right on the web and it backs Moore up 100%
Meet Paul H. Keckley, Ph.D.
Executive Director of the Deloitte Center for Health Solutions
Paul Keckley
Paul H. Keckley, Ph.D., is the executive director of the Deloitte Center for Health Solutions (the Center), a part of Deloitte & Touche USA LLP (Deloitte & Touche USA). He provides strategic guidance on the development of Center research and thought leadership. Paul has had 30 years of experience in academic medicine and the private sector. He is well-regarded for his knowledge of health care economics, health policy and trend analysis.
http://www.deloitte.com/dtt/employee_profile/0,1007,cid%253D159872,00.html
Meet Tommy G. Thompson
Independent Chairman, Deloitte Center for Health Solutions
Tommy G. Thompson
Tommy G. Thompson, the former Health and Human Services (HHS) secretary and four-term governor of Wisconsin, is independent chairman of the Deloitte Center for Health Solutions and a partner at the law firm of Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld.
At the Deloitte Center and Akin Gump, Secretary Thompson is building on his efforts as HHS secretary and as governor to develop innovative solutions to the health care challenges facing American families, businesses, communities, states and the nation as a whole. These efforts focus on improving the use of information technology in hospitals, clinics and doctors offices; promoting healthier lifestyles; strengthening and modernizing Medicare and Medicaid; and expanding the use of medical diplomacy around the world.
http://www.deloitte.com/dtt/employee_profile/0,1007,sid%3D80772%26cid%3D...
So the bottom line is that Dr. Gupta was using a partisan hack to attack Moore and he lied about it! The man has no journalistic integrity and should be taken off the air!
theWalrus @ 60:
It's early, but she's stutterin' and stammerin'...We should probably take this down to the open thread. I e-mailed a suggestion fer a Taylor thread, so hopefully...
Freaked-Out Canadian @ 57:
Condor @ 71:
Hahaha! You believe in Bushco!
CNN - "But no matter how much Moore fudged the facts, and he did fudge some facts…"
Moore is very thoughtful in his fact research. He know it will be picked apart at the nano level.
For every time CNN aired their "Fact Check" segment they should air a public appology or face libel.
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.
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Larry King...40,000 interviews...and he still sucks.
Gupta is nothing but a right-wing shill. Building straw men and coming across like he's "balanced". Pure bunk.
And listen to King -- "Good point"..."Why get so mad, Michael?"..."It was a pretty balanced report, Michael". LOL!
And King keeps cutting Moore off.
What a joke the American media has become.
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.
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75 Comb_Licker
Is that you, Paul Wolfowitz?
ysbaddaden @ 77:
shhhhhh.
Condor @ 71:
Am I to assume you believe in Bill O'Liely, Hanniety, Gibson, Hume,Fred Barnes, et.al. on
Faux Noise?
BaScOmBe, I was thinking the same thing about alex... a few extra things though... to quote official us govt statistics or projections is the most prudent thing to do. and forget the bbc report (which moore did respond to by the way) - they got their numbers from the same place he did - the united nations human development report from 2006. again, as 'official' a statistic as a statistic can be. and as for the 'acting indignant'? um, what?! to be flustered when someone spews lie after incredulous lie is quite a normal reaction. and moore did have a serious conversation, more than gupta (who couldn't quite stop blinking - the telltale sign that he was LYING when the piece started). and i was flabbergasted when the edited gupta report correcting the 25 per capita number was aired. that was the most egregious smear and to say, oh we made a mistake and moore is a raving lunatic for getting upset about it and then not show the original pre-correction piece was so blatantly biased against moore. and now to read the "oh, i don't know" responses here... c'mon people! wake up! moore held his own, made the few points he was given time for and did an excellent job overall.
Michael Moore: “The one expert you had in the piece is a person from a think tank group, who is a big Republican contributor, he’s done business with Blue Cross, with Aventis … don’t you have a right as a journalist, a responsibility actually, to tell the public when you’re using an expert: this person is a Republican, he’s with a think tank that’s connected to Tommy Thompson, you know…”
Dr. Sanjay Gupta: “His only affiliation is with Vanderbilt University. We checked it, Michael.”
It took me less than two minutes to google this clown's resume up on line and find out that again Moore was 100% accurate. Gupta lied and tried to conceal the truth, he's a hack!
The real question re Gupta's hit-piece is: what was its point? "Some critics claim Michael Moore uses phoney numbers, so we looked up his numbers and found that some of the time his numbers were almost the same as ours but not quite. Oh, and along the way we parrot some baloney that's spewed by dumb Moore-haters." Is that what passes for journalism these days?
Gupta's piece was entirley pointless and serves only one purpose: to attack "Sicko", either for the sake of "balance" or because sponsors/industry ties put pressure on CNN/Gupta. Should I really be surprised that the one talking head Gupta came up with was a GOP shill? Almost as if he was handed to him ona platter.
The really hilarious bit was the one about Cuba being #39. Yeah, let's be proud that you, the richest nation in the world, barely beat a country that has suffered under some of the most stringent sanctions for decades when it comes to health care.
And all that baloney about ELECTIVE procedures is just too dumb for comment. Moore should reword that phrase to point out what it really means: the US only leads when it comes to RICH people getting the treatment they desire.
CNN's really trying to cover it's ass on this. Moore's got CNN on the run. The Sanjay bit was a not so subtle hit job. His new argument that Moore leaves the impression with "unsophisticated" viewers that "it's free" in other countries is a bullshit argument as well as typically condescending to the public. Everyone knows that such programs require taxes. Christ almighty, before Sanjay got to that specious argument they spent several minutes comparing the cost per patient for healthcare. Does Sanjay think that would be translated as "free"? They are lying about Moore, and I'm glad he's swinging back. The only surprise is that apparently they hink they can have Moore on and actually win the argument based on their false information. Moore comes prepared. If they were "smart," they'd just run the hit pieces and not invite more to respond. So, I'll give them credit for either trying to be fair, with one thumb on the scale, or for being stupid.
I read "cherry picked" his numbers as "cheney picked" his numbers. Strangely and somewhat ironically true!?
Amazing. What these anti-National healthcare boneheads are trying to say, is that America today is powerless and unable to do what a broke and broken Britain did in 1945! Talk about low-balling our potential!
Dave @ 80:
Agreed, the most egregious smear was the Gupta figure of 25 PERCENT vs. 250 PERCENT
used by Moore in his Movie...yet being off the mark by 225 percent cent was just
a "mistake" and then to critize Moore for using 250 vs. 261 percent(off only 11 points)
is justified...WTF
Both were right. But for the "My Name Is Earl" crowd with their entertainment-based reality, Gupta smoked Moore on Larry King, period. I don't know what you're saying above (those who say Moore "won" or beat Gupta), but Gupta owned Moore's ass which is why Moore started feeling sheepish and even apologized for his tirade on Blitzer (which was deserved for it's tasteless hit piece on him just minutes before airing). I mean come on, didn't you feel a little embarassed by Moore's arguing and long pauses..and hemming and hawwing? It's shamelessly biased to say he "beat" Gupta. I love Mike Moore and have never seen him speechless or without a genuine ass kicking quip, but he truly had nothing to say but lines he's been using daily on tv appearences..sometimes while not even staying on subject.
But what matters is that they did both pick various sources, and they both agreed that health care sucks. Now if Larry King had a pulse at all, he'd have used that half hour of air time to introduce something new that wouldn't have those two guests bickering over some inconsequential numbers about one small part of Moore's movie...perhaps something like "So Michael/Sanjay, what do you see in the presidential candidacies' health care proposals that are good?" or "Do you see a specific plan from one of the candidates that you can get behind, and why?" But no...the boney shoulder man just sat there like a tired old windbag he is and waited for the half hour so he could move on to something that gives him a mild boner.
It was great to see Moore call Sanjay a liar right to his smarmy face. The good doctor was blinking like crazy as he repeated the lies he told in his report. From the amount of time and effort CNN devoted to trying to save face for the lying liar, it's clear that they know Sanjay's questionable credibility is on the line. These corporate shills need to be slapped in the face with proof of their lies as often as possible so they will eventually become thoroughly discredited.
Condor, I don't believe in Michael Moore.
Heck, I don't believe in anybody or anything anymore. How could I? I pay attention to these clowns, and none of them either truly understand or want to lead on that they understand what is going on.
This is all entertainment posing as hard news, created by the Elite for mass consumption by the proletariat class.
Sanjay is clearly trying to save his career the way Tucker Carlson was after Jon Stewart got done with him. People need to stop playing the media game and challenge the assumptions and ground rules the way Moore has so brilliantly done.
baby jesus, we're way overdue for a pandemic.
Imagine the health care crisis then.
Rasputin @ 70:
Nothing personal, Ras, but I factually, intellectually love you.
Sanjay, nice of you to say it is good of Mr. Moore to get this subject into the media for discussion. My question is, why wasn't it you doing this? With your immense access to all areas of the healthcare industry and your daily pulpit to speak from, where has your voice been? There is no information provided in Sicko that you couldn't have reported on long ago, to millions of your daily viewers. If you aren't using your standing to help fix the problem, you are part of the problem!
Aside from the rapid blinking, didn't Sanjay look a bit constipated? Like a four year old getting caught in a lie.
andy @ 21:
Gupta/CNN making this about "sources" was disingenuous from the start.
It was completely unethical for CNN to run the "corrected" version of Gupta's story without announcing it had been re-edited beforehand to show the $251 figure for Cuban health care--which comes from SiCKO (i.e., the BBC report, which is also supported by the United Nations Human Development Report)--as opposed to the $25 figure Gupta originally (before the re-edit) said was in the film. Gupta had originally said it was actually $229 (from the WHO) as opposed to $25, which he accused SiCKO of using, and King intro'd the video as having aired the night before, which it didn't, because it had been altered to cheapen the discussion. And notice that $251 is higher than the $229 figure Gupta had used to try to make the point that Moore was "fudging facts" towards his POV by using the $25 figure.
Obviously, though, the tactic worked, with so many posts here missing that point completely.
Then, to top things off, in the King interview, Gupta accuses Moore of having used the $229 figure. Michael called him out on it quickly, but Gupta talked right through. That's why Moore "didn't respond," as another poster had said above.
Also, the $1400 difference is not between the Gupta figures and the SiCKO figures. That difference was $996, because the film said $7,092. The $7,498 figure is from Moore's initial response on his website, which clearly says the US will spend that per person in 2007 to make the point that it's going up even further. All of this was taken out of context in the King inteview for the purposes of obfuscation.
The whole thing was thrown together quckly to draw ratings based on the Monday scuffle; so hopefully the next round (which was promised) will actually be done well and thoughtfully.
And if you think that because they both agree there's a problem with the health care system equates to them agreeing on the "underlying problem," then you missed the boat entirely, which would be easy to do based on that contrived, fluff-piece ending. They are not in agreement as to why there is a problem or what those problems are, which are much more specific and important issues.
Gupta says the French pay taxes, therefore their healthcare isn't free. He's being dishonest.
Of course, the French pay for their healthcare through taxation, just as they pay for their roads, so in the trivial sense it's not "free". But everyone in France is free to use any hospital, just as they're free to drive on any roads.
In the US, everyone is free to use the roads, but if you develop a health condition or have an accident, you may not be "free" to go to some hospitals, if they're not signed up with your insurance provider -- or you can go, but you'll be charged for the ambulance ride or whatever. If your medical condition isn't covered by your plan, then it's not "free" either.
Gupta dishonestly conflates the market sense of the word "free" (to cost nothing) with the medical insurance sense of the word "free" (to be covered).
What a hack.
Gupta is given credibility because, "He's a neurosurgeon!" Many physicians (see Frist) get most of their money from businesses associated with the business of medicine, not from direct patient care. I would like to see CNN reveal Gupta's finacial involvements in medical insurance companies and other medical businesses. I think that would explain a great deal about why his "reporting" is what it is.
Here is the video of Michael Moore flipping out over CNN's coverage of the story. He also gives Wolf Blitzer an earful about CNN dropping the ball with Iraq and his last movie.
VIDEO:
http://beta.redlasso.com/Community/ClipPlayer.aspx?i=d92151d4-9e12-4834-...
Here's CNN's comment form, you can tell them what you think of Dr Gupta's hack attack piece:
http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form5.html?65
An interesting bit of information obtained from www.opensecrets.org website:
Of the top 10 Lobbying groups spending money on "our" Congress, four of
them are: American Medical Assoc., American Hospital Assoc., the Pharamsecuitcal
Assoc. of America, and Blue Cross/Blue Shield.
Wonder if their contributions/donations have anything to do with why we do not
have a universal health care system for ALL???
The "My Name is Earl" crowd?
If you base your entire argument on that ad hominem attack, you've got nothing, and that's what you've got... nothing.
Alex @ 5:
I think the important thing is the CNN accused M. Moore of "fudging his facts" when the essence of CNN's argument was "there are other, similar statistics that are not precisely the same." That is true about every number we hear on television. To suggest that is fudging the facts is immoral.
cspan 3 has Sara Taylor testifying.
andy @ 21:
Moore mentioned taking the Dept. of Health and Human Services estimates for the US figures; this should be the best source for the cost of health care spending in the US. As far as I know, they dont do projections for the Cuban health care system. He probably took the figures he felt he could trust.
BaScOmBe @ 92:
Awww shucks, twern't nothing!
Alex @ 5:
Just for the record, the per-capita cost in Cuba Moore quoted was actually higher than the one Gupta used. Also, Moore explained that the figures he used for the US were newer than the BBC figures.
Don't you get it?? The Right Wing has already won the debate. They didn't intend to show real errors and lies. Their goal was to put doubt in the minds of about 50% of the people that really want to believe that the U.S. is #1 in everything they do. They will continue to repeat the lies over and over. They have a massive talking machine that will point at the debunked comments as proof and fact. All the time the discussion will be about details of the movie and not about the health care system. They win again. The American public doesn't have the patience to follow the story past a few talking points from both sides. Some points will stick in their brains and the truth has nothing to do with it.
Larry shows footage of the angry Moor, but then doesn't show the version of the clip that made Moore mad. That smacks of spin. Gupta admits to the $25 vs. $251 error, but acts like it's no big deal. "Fudging" implies willful obfuscation by Moore, for which Gupta provides zero evidence. Should we judge Gupta by the same standards, and assume that his inaccuracies were willful?
Gupta then compounds his earlier error by falsely claiming that there is a discrepancy between the film and Moore's website ($251 vs. $229). Actually, $229 is GUPTA'S OWN figure from the original version that made Moore angry. (It is on Moore's website, but only as an example of Moore's Moore has used $251 from the beginning in both film and website.
The only way you can think that Moore DIDN'T beat Gupta is if you favor truthiness over factuality.
Dr. Gupta: "fudging the facts" and "cherry-picking from different sources" are two VERY different things. You accused the man of being a liar. That was not constructive.
Mike, you held your own very well. A grateful nation thanks you. The money spent on weapons is related.
Larry - didn't you rub Brando's feet on the air because he asked you to?
As moore pointed out... Larry King aired the attack piece again without telling Moore. That was the third time that they aired the piece and this tactic was used by the swiftboaters. You get the news to keep airing the phony piece add and repeating the lies over and over.
CNN is guilty of irresponsible journalism of the worst kind!
Here's CNN's feedback thread:
http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form5.html?65
Cnn made a hit piece that shifted the debate from universal healthcare into "Michael Moore fudges facts." It seemed like the majority of Cnn's "corrections" were simply a matter of scale and did nothing to change the over all point: Most Americans would like a different healthcare system closer to what they have in the rest of the industrial world. And while we are looking to foreign examples to improve our system, NO country is looking at the US system to improve theirs... It's not the doctors that are the problem, it's how we pay them...
I find it very odd that my comment (#39) is completely glossed over in favor of focus on data discrepencies.
Focusing in he said/she said arguments (basically grade 5 level maturity) over real issues like wait lists for Cancer treatments and the real total costs of health care causes me to think the biases on either side (left or right) in the abscence of substantive debate is the real problem.
Many people on this discussion board need to stop yelling and start thinking before they post.
As I watched, all I can ask myself what the fuck are they arguing over because they ultimately agree?! They just appeared to be arguing over numbers that are very similar. I mean Moore didn't pull numbers out of his ass as they were all sourced yet Gupta has as an issue as to the accuracy to some of the numbers regardless if they're GOVERNMENT sourced?! My impression was that Gupta believed Moore made up numbers but then switched to an accuracy issue. WTF!!! It was just kinda weird. If anything it was Gupta who was DEAD wrong about the Cuba per capital spending! Gupta was helped by King, who seemed to be in a bad mood, as they set the environment to SHAME Moore. It was just a TV ratings moment and nothing productive came of it. NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Also, Gupta's harping about whether it's really free and whether you should call it free felt tremendously condescending! I just yelled at the TV saying " I KNOW FUCK HEAD..TAXES WOULD GO UP TO PAY FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE..I'M NOT STUPID!!". Then we got the waiting line bullshit!! Lord, does Gupta see the big picture of Universal Heath care at all?? The real winner is the American Health Industry because the segment just created just enough cynicism and incredulity to obfuscate the issue by creating more meaningless arguments while ONCE AGAIN ignoring the REAL FUCKING ISSUE!!! Good job CNN and GUEUUEUUUPTA!
I wish CNN would fact check Tony Snow, pResident Bush, Dick Cheney, Republican members of Congress, etc. as much as they do Moore.
The irony is just too painful that the "Fact-Checking" segment by CNN needed fact-checking itself, and turned out to be much more flawed in its 2 minute report than Moore's feature-length film.
And then, to crank the irony up even further, they inevitable dismiss Moore's films in their introductions as "not really documentaries, but more like a personal rant", or "what he's doing is not really journalism", or "Moore's films are more about entertainment than journalism".
As though day after day, the MSM have been bringing us hard-hitting, 2-hour long, thoughful and moving examinations of the war, health-care, gun-culture and the weapons industry instead of Paris Hiltonesque fluff.
"Is your family pet a threat to the health of your children? That story next! Can the neighborhood lemonade stand kill your kids? That story coming up! Do ghosts really exist? Can budgies talk? Are bedbugs, grasshoppers, satanists, muslims, lesbian gangs taking over your town?"
If the MSM really thinks that Moore's tongue-in-cheek approach to journalism is too off-hand, then they should get up off their lazy, three-ring circus clown asses and produce something like PBS's Frontline instead of the drivel they spew out day after day.
Oddly, their crap is non-partisan. They set Moore up in an unforgiveable way, and I cringed as they cut from their intro to Mike, but I squirmed similarly as Wolf sniggered his lesbian-daughter question to Cheney. I have no love lost for Dick, but if Blitzer wanted to ask the question, he should have done so directly.
So much of the MSM seem to approach everything in this odd, sneering, passively aggressive, kewl-kids, adolescent tone. They either toss softball questions to those they are in awe of, or ask insinuatingly nasty questions of those they dismiss.
If they want to be nasty, why not just come out and say it?
"Mr. Edwards, isn't it true that you love politics more than your sick wife?"
"Mr. Moore, aren't you just a big, fat fraud?"
"Ms. Clinton, why don't you just admit that you are a controlling, lesbian bitch?"
Instead, they ask slimy, insinuating, leading questions and, when the intervviewee reacts with anger or appropriate indignation, they feign shock..."Wow, that Michael Moore sure is a hair-trigger guy! He behaves like it's all about him! It's not like we called him a 'fraud' or anything. We just said he 'fudged' his facts. Like, whoa!"
The real problem in America is not the government. It is the media. The recent statistics about how uninformed - and wrong - public perception is (on science, global warming, Iraq/Osama, WMDs, evolution, governmental process) all point to a problem can be duly laid at the feet of the media who spend so little time teaching and informing, and so much time distracting.
Canada has the CBC, the UK the BBC. Maybe America needs to elevate PBS to the status of national broadcaster, and stop the partisan meddling in its management structure. Any great democracy needs an informed citizenry, and for that, they need reliable, rigorous and trustworthy sources of information.
If you go back to the time of release of Moore's previous films, and compare what he said to what the consensus was in the MSM - and look carefully at how Moore's films were being represented by MSM commentators - you'd conclude that the world really is upside down.
The irony is that Al Jazeera has become more reliable than CNN. Well, maybe that's not an irony, but it is a shame.
hanshiro @ 51:
Not to mention the experience of millions of Americans who try to access health care and get their insurance to pay for it. These guys have no clue.
The points Gupta picked on originally were really picky. The main fact is that in Cuba you can get care every time and here you can't, and we pay a whole lot more: $250 v 6 or 7 thousand dollars! At that point, who's even counting?
I haven't read all posts, so maybe someone else has beat me to the punch.
Check this document from the WHO:
http://www.who.int/whosis/whostat2007.pdf
Page 73 - 4th row down are the statistics for the United States. You'll clearly see column 3 is Per Capita spending in 2004! and it's the 6096 Dr. Fraud is speaking.
Also, the document states:
"Figures have been computed by WHO to ensure comparability; thus they are not necessarily the official statistics of Member States, which may use
alternative rigorous methods."
andy, have you been paying attention? We have massive health-related horror stories in this country. Everyone knows someone with one. Moore received over 25,000 emails on the topic; I hope he compiles them in a book, except that it would be extremely depressing.
that would make you an excellent candidate for republican conversion, throw more information at a republican than he can handle, it all becomes a blur and they get lazy with investigating truth. The definition of a bushy - lazy, gullible, manipulable, science-hating masochists.
Larry had the audacity (perhaps alzheimers terrets) to show a DOCTORED clip where they re-recorded FUDGED inaccuracies on CNNs hit piece, then ask Moore if HE had overreacted over them accusing him of FUDGING??? what a TOOL!
Gupta is an RX salesman sponsored by HMO corps, all my doctor acquaintances do it too, just not on tv. They pay BIG MONEY. He should have apologized for admittedly falsely quoting Moore - he did not. The hypocratic oath does not require doctors to be hypocrites. Gupta is a hypocrite and has no credibility.
At least Wolf accepted that the facts were against him with a modicum of decency.
andy @ 21:
Freaked-Out Canadian @ 115:
Canada has the CBC, the UK the BBC. Maybe America needs to elevate PBS to the status of national broadcaster, and stop the partisan meddling in its management structure. Any great democracy needs an informed citizenry, and for that, they need reliable, rigorous and trustworthy sources of information.
If you go back to the time of release of Moore's previous films, and compare what he said to what the consensus was in the MSM -
The irony is that Al Jazeera has become more reliable than CNN. Well, maybe that's not an irony, but it is a shame.
Huh. I used to live in Canada (moved to the US 14 yrs ago). CBC is filled with remarkable bias (particularly anti American). They regularly quote biased facts to support their personal agendas. US press does the same, but don't place CBC on a pedestal.
Yes, the best source is probably the BBC, but don't even try to compare the CBC with BBC. That's like comparing a pipskeak with a giant.
I had CNN on yesterday afternoon and heard the insufferable Kyra Phillips doing two promos for the Moore interview, first saying that part 2 of the interview with Blitzer would be coming up, so stay turned for more of Moore's "ranting and raving" and later adding "if you can stomach it". The only thing I have a problem stomaching is the self-righteousness and "how dare you talk back to us" attitude of the media.
hadenuf @ 118:
Absolutely true.
But lets not assume other countries don't also have theirs. My Father just happens to be in one of those horrors.
All I'm trying to do is get people on this board to stoop the yelling about he said/she said and get to the underlying problem. No system is perfect.
Instead of raising the level of constructive discussion, everyone wants to crap on the MSM.
I just want my Dad to get treatment.
Ironchef @ 87:
Moore was "speechless" when Gupta accused him of not pointing out that the "French are drowning in taxes". This is exactly - I mean exactly - a line that Moore delivers in his film. He never suggests that socialized health care is "free" in that sense. He devotes considerable time (the ex-Labour MP, the French, the Canadian golfer) to explaining that other countries see paying for Health Care out of their taxes as a civic duty. The Brit MP reads from a pamphlet that explicitly says that the NHS is "not free...you pay for it out of your taxes."
Ironchef, I'm not sure if you have seen the film or not, but I get the feeling that so much of the discussion around Sicko is specious because the critics of Moore have yet to actually see the film. I don't think that anyone, having seen Sicko, would come away saying that Moore...
1) Failed to recognize that "free' systems pay for their care in taxes.
2) Suggested that any single existing system was what the US should adopt.
He specifically calls for Americans to pick the best features of other 'universal' systems and build them into an even better system for Americans.
A friend of mine from the US was visiting me last year, and cut very deeply into his finger while we were in the middle of France. After on-site treatment, an ambulance ride to the hospital, stitches and pain killers in the emergency room, and not having his US based insurance info with him -- his total bill came to exactly € 23. -.
Let's see that happen anywhere in the US.
andy @ 39:
I had respect for gupta before this piece-he's just another lying tool-had to laugh at his 'pained' look while michael was
speaking-these folks have no conscience-
andy @ #112,
It was ostensibly a fact-checking piece by Gupta, so you shouldn't be surprised that people are upset when a "fact-checker" can't get HIS facts straight.
It's a sad day when the guardians of factuality (news organizations) are more factually challenged than the "controversial" demagogues they are supposed to be"fact-checking".
I very much liked Larry's interview with Michael two weeks or so ago... they had an hour of really great conversation.
Larry King doesn't press issues because that isn't his job nor SHOULD it be the job of any interviewer. The Bill O'Rielly's of the world who disagree with their interviewee and badger them seriously need to stop interviewing. The interviewer should be as impartial as possible.
If Gupta were one of my many docs, I'd fire him. Sharpish.
I'm impressed that Larry King could take time out of his busy schedule of obsessing with Paris Hilton and lost white girls of rich parents to actually run something of interest to the American people.
Doggiebobo @ 61:
DAR
Ah, we are spending $12 billion [b]a month[/b] which is $3,000 million per week, not 12 million per week. Consider:
"It’s not just the troops that are surging. War costs are up for American operations in Iraq — way up, more than a third higher than last year. In the first half of this fiscal year, the Defense Department’s “average monthly obligations for contracts and pay is running about $12 billion per month,...
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/07/war-costs-soar-.html
Also, I have no problem with Michael referring to health-care as free in these other countries. When I go to the library, it is free. It goes without question that the library is being paid for by taxes. However, if you are really poor and don't own land, you are paying very little in taxes (for libraries or health-care) but are still covered (in these other countries). Actually, people do pay health-care premiums in Canada but they are very low.
Here in the US my brother and his wife had health insurance when she went to the hospital to have a baby. Unfortunately his health insurance company went bankrupt so they were stuck with the $10,000+ bill. They went bankrupt shortly after. And then divorced. We can do better.
Gupta is a shill and a piece of crap. Arguing about nits when the big elephant in the room is that US health-care is a mess and a national disgrace.
Darrel
All in all a healthy debate that will help us all decide for ourselves what should be done. There was no name calling or personal attacks. Two intelligent individuals clearing the air and stimulating the debate. I haven't seen stuff like that since the night before when Amy Goodmand devoted the bulk of her show to Ralph Nader. I'm always energized by a good dose of corporate disembowelment.
Here is the video where Michael Moore flipped out at Wolf Blitzer and the MSM in general
VIDEO - Moore Loses It
http://beta.redlasso.com/Community/ClipPlayer.aspx?i=d92151d4-9e12-4834-...
andy, I'm sorry for your father; I really am. If he were wealthy, then he'd be able to travel elsewhere. Quality health care should not be available just for the wealthy.
Our health care model probably should be more like France's or the UK's than Canada. I'm very skeptical that anything will change; the money interests are too powerful. People were talking about universal health care at the beginning of the last century!
Write to CNN! I just did. Made me feel better.
Nail them for showing footage of an angry Moore, then showing a doctored clip!
Nail them for glossing over the $25 vs. $251 error!
Nail them for compounding that error by falsely accusing Moore of a discrepancy between website and film ($229 vs. $251). $229 was GUPTA'S OWN NUMBER from his original clip, which he then changed in the second clip!
Actually, it's my understanding that the AMA was against Medicare and Medicaid back in the day.
Within the last ten years I've read reports of record numbers of doctors joining unions that were originally for the blue-collar.
They'll do more damage than the foreign born doctors in Britain.
Honestly, none of our deliberations about socialized health care here matter in any way at this point and are completely ineffectual since the President, the parties, the Congress and the Judiciary have no intentions of ending their loyalty to the insurance industry that was a large part of planting all of these politicians in the government. These politicians are PLUTOCRATS and serve corporate interests over the will of the citizens of the land. This is why there will be no impeachment, this is why the Patriot Act was authorized and this is why the war will never end! The citizens have three choices consisting of endless talking, accepting the police state or revolution. Two of those three achieve the same state of acceptance of the police state so there are really only two choices.
TYRANNY vs LIBERTY
Progressives and all the rest need to drop the wedge issues and converge on the concept that the responsibility to rectify this situation lies in the PEOPLE who this government no longer serves. Our remaining choices are protests, petitioning, marches and NATIONAL STRIKES. Beyond that the Founding Fathers make it clear that the government is to FEAR the PEOPLE when all is correct. When the PEOPLE FEAR the government we must set it RIGHT! We are far past talking about this!
Gupta got his but kicked by Moore. Awesome. Gupta seemed like a whiney child begging Moore to rephrase the concept of "Free" I wish Moore had looked into the camera and just said "In Canada, the UK, and Cuba, HEALTH CARE IS FREE."
Gupta's phrase about "people without a sophisticated understanding of the healthcare system" being hoodwinked by Moore's terminology is insulting.
I hate to say it. Moore got pwn'd.
Gupta: "We have Michael Moore speechless. That's pretty hard to do here."
He couldn't stay on topic when Gupta just kept pounding on him.
Gupta: "Would you say this (Medicare) will still be a working system 20 years from now?"
Moore: Not if we keep spending $100 billion on war."
C'mon Moore! You've got more to say about health care! Speak more Sicko, not Farenheit!
Look, skeletor. Go somewhere and interrogate Paris Hilton and leave fixing healthcare to those of us that actually give a damn. And the irony of course is it looks like you could use some extra coverage yourself.
As the saying goes, "Ain't no fool like an OLD fool!"
In Canada, we should fund our system better, and we should shorten waiting times. That's a given, and all Canadians would agree. But we pay less per capita than the US, and there are several good points.
1) Our overall health is better, at least by longevity and infant mortality measures.
2) Every Canadian is covered.
3) No Canadian has to fear quitting, moving, taking time off, or otherwise leaving a job because it means the loss of employer-sponsored health coverage.
4) It is almost unheard of for treatment to be 'denied'.
5) No one goes personally bankrupt because of a health crisis.
6) No one avoids pre-emptive care because they can't afford it.
Those are pretty big up-sides.
Both my parents had medical nightmares (repeated aortal aneurysms, multiple bouts of cancer, etc, etc.) and each spent 5-10 years in and out of hospital and the ICU. I was with them most of that time and have a keen sense of the failures of our health system.
There weren't enough nurses, and they were often overworked. The rooms could have been more modern or prettier. A couple of times, the emergency waits were too long (although never when the issue was critical).
That said, the diagnoses, operations, after-care were superb. My dad's life was extended almost miraculously, and my mom is clear after two go-rounds with cancer.
If we were living in the US, I figure our family would be broke and in debt.
The problems we have in Canada could be easily cured if we paid anywhere near what the US pays per-capita. They are solvable problems.
The benefits of our system (see above), however, are sacred to us. That's why Tommy Douglas, the 'father of medicare' in Canada (and grandfather of Kiefer Sutherland) was voted the "Greatest Canadian" of all time in a CBC contest.
We complain about the failures of our system, and seek to improve it, but a vast majority of Canadians find our Medicare to be a sacred trust. The same is true of Britons and of the French.
That should be the starting point of the discussion.
RayC at 107, you are right that CNN didn't intend to refute Michael Moore but just to create a sense of doubt in 50% of their viewers' "minds". Very Orwellian, and they probably succeeded. I didn't watch because I refuse to watch Larry King who is a tabloidist 90% of the time, but I wish Moore hadn't gone on the program and had just left the issue standing at the slapdown of Wolfie.
All the health care numbers you could ever need are here. This summary includes comparisons of the American health care system relative to other countries and between the states, plus data on the uninsured, rising health care costs, the woes of Medicare and Medicaid and more.
For all the details, see:
"SiCKO Required Reading: U.S. Health Care by the Numbers."
Gupta admitted that the American Healthcare system is terrible. Moore asked him to say if he would choose it over the other Developed Western Countries systems. Gupta did not even answer. That is it all in a nutshell. Case closed. Michael Moore gave Gupta a chance to defend the current US system and explain why it was better than any of the those in the other twenty five nations. Gupta never answered the challenge. Michael Moore in a walkover.
...
"No system is perfect, so why even try"
The mantra of every social, economic and political parasite to ever exist.
so you're saying that goopta looked more 'debate-winner like'?
goopta 'smoked' Moore?
goopta 'won'?
Is that your best ANALysis?
Reich-wingers hate the thought of health care for everyone because that would only attract more Democratic voters. Yet again, reich-wingers care more about their party than the country.
BaScOmBe @ 146:
Too bad chief didn't say goopta "pwned" Moore. That would have been the icing.
Why doesn't Moore loudly drum the point to CNN that "fudging the facts" means to state untruths, or making it up.
Because Moore got statistics from the Bush administration's own Health and Human Services Department, and Gupta got his from the BBC and elsewhere, that DOES NOT qualify as "fudging". In fact, Moore's sources are far more likely to be accurate and up to date than are Gupta's.
Watch it carefully at around the 9 minute mark. Moore brings up the issue about the cost of the Health care in other countries. Gupta then responds and says "I won't disagree with any of that", but then continues on trying to get Moore to concede that he's wrong with what he says about it being free. I mean almost in the exact same breath, he contradicts himself.
I lost a lot of respect for Dr. Gupta after this. I have to give the guy credit for using his medical skills to help perform a very complicated procedure on a young Iraqi girl when he was embedded in Iraq, but this was just clearly biased on his part.
All you have to do is look at the Doc's face to know that his hand is caught in the cookie jar. Even Larry King refers to the piece as "kinda balanced, what's wrong with that?". The media thinks that fair and balanced means facts countered by lies.
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