Barbara Boxer says Impeachment should be on the table
By John Amato Wednesday Jul 11, 2007 4:34pm
Jonathan Schwarz grabbed the audio of Barbara Boxer telling Big Ed that impeachment should be on the table because this administration is like a dictatorship.
BOXER: Yeah. I mean, you left out a bunch of things -- spying on citizens without a warrant, going around FISA, on and on. Look, I have always said it should be on the table. Ed, I've always said it. I was on a book tour and I ran into John Dean of Watergate fame. He was on the book tour that I was on, for his book. And it was right after we discovered that the administration was spying on our people without a warrant. And he just said, he looked at me and basically just said, as far as he could see, unless there was some explanation for this, this was impeachable.
I've always said that you need to keep it on the table, and you need to look at these things, because now people are dying because of this administration. That's the truth. And they won't change course. They are ignoring the Congress. They keep signing these signing statements which mean that he's decided not to enforce the law. This is as close as we've ever come to a dictatorship. When you have a situation where Congress is stepped on, that means the American people are stepped on. So I don't think you can take anything off the table. Because in fact the Constitution doesn't permit us to take these things off the table...(trancscript below the fold) read on
SCHULTZ: They're throwing down the gauntlet. They're just declaring that they're not going to change anything -- the President in Cleveland yesterday saying, we're just getting started. So in the meantime, the frustration of the American people continues to build, and I have to tell you Senator, I'm not trying to rope you into a conversation one way or another or where you're at on this, but I want to say this for our listeners: they want impeachment put back on the table. They want impeachment on the table as a bargaining chip. Because for instance, Scooter Libby, commuting the sentence, what happened today with Sarah Taylor saying she'd been instructed by the president not to say anything, Alberto Gonzales, the story today about how he was briefed over the Patriot Act and then lied a week later in front of the Senate Intelligence Committee. I mean, when is enough is enough?
BOXER: Yeah. I mean, you left out a bunch of things -- spying on citizens without a warrant, going around FISA, on and on. Look, I have always said it should be on the table. Ed, I've always said it. I was on a book tour and I ran into John Dean of Watergate fame. He was on the book tour that I was on, for his book. And it was right after we discovered that the administration was spying on our people without a warrant. And he just said, he looked at me and basically just said, as far as he could see, unless there was some explanation for this, this was impeachable. I've always said that you need to keep it on the table, and you need to look at these things, because now people are dying because of this administration. That's the truth. And they won't change course. They are ignoring the Congress. They keep signing these signing statements which mean that he's decided not to enforce the law. This is as close as we've ever come to a dictatorship. When you have a situation where Congress is stepped on, that means the American people are stepped on. So I don't think you can take anything off the table. Because in fact the Constitution doesn't permit us to take these things off the table.
SCHULTZ: Would you counsel Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid to put it on the table and make a statement before everybody goes home in August. Because they're going to get an earful from the American people when they go home.
BOXER: Well, I don't presume to tell people what to do. I have made my statements. And of course if asked I will say. I've been out there, I'm out here again today. I think, John Conyers is -- this is where impeachment starts. When Alberto Gonzales, when it came out that he fired these U.S. attorneys, that it was politics being played with it, I thought then that we should look into impeachment hearings. So I don't think it should be taken off the table.
On the other hand, we've got a war to end. We've got things that we've got to keep on doing. So if we do this right, we should give it to the appropriate committees, let them do the hard work that it entails, but we have to do something about health insurance. We have to do something about global warming. We have to end this war. We have to do something about education. And all these other things. About the budget deficit. You have to walk and chew gum at the same. And I know Nancy's point was, we have to reverse about seven years of this horrific administration's policies, and she's fearful of losing steam on that, in that regard.
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Impeachment should be on the table. Dick and George's heads would look good too.
Let's trade that other Californian for this one. Speaker of the House Barbara Boxer!
Sweet! Now there's a woman who speaks for me. We ladies know how to fu*king set a table. Plates, forks, knives, spoons and a heaping bowl of impeachment.
Thank you Barbara and go Cali.
Impeach and then put the War Criminals in prison.
By not Impeaching, the Democrats would be putting party over the Constitution which is exactly what is wrong with the Repugs and the BushCo. regime.
it never should have been off the table.
how much more evidence do people need that the bush admin has run roughshod over the constitution? yeesh, if this deceptive, duplicitous, devious and dangerous administration is not held to account for their crimes i fear that admin's down the road will keep trying to push the envelope.
one thing the GOP understands is examples--as in making examples out of people in order to make a point. make an example out of the bush admin (trials, jails, whatever), and reassure america and the world that in america the rule of law is truly sacrosanct
Sorry, Madam Speaker, but the Senate doesn't give a shit about your head of steam. They've stopped your momentum from day one, thanks to Lieberschnitzel. The Rethug obstructionists can block the reforms that Americans want, but they can't block impeachment. Time to imprison the whole administration.
"because now people are dying because of this administration."
NOW people are dying?!?!
Hey SHERLOCK...they've been dying for over 4 years.
Did you notice how we usurped the "First!" person? :)
I agree. There are all kinds of good reasons to go after both W and Cheney for high crimes and misdemeanors... AND IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE A PARTISAN WHITCH HUNT! It should not be partisan at all.
I know SOME Republicans will scream bloody murder. It will be the responsibility of the Democrats in the House to show that this adminstration is BAD FOR THE HEALTH OF OUR COUNTRY.
THAT is getting easier every day!
Why do we always allow these repubs to frame the debate? The talk going on now is "the surge just started 2 weeks ago, so give it time"! We know the "surge" started 6 months ago.
"This is as close as we’ve ever come to a dictatorship." She sees the same thing that we do. Okay run her for president, she has my vote.
Barbara come be my senator. Mine's suppose to have b*lls, but you're the one with the big brass ones. This American stands solidly with you.
I'm so glad she's my Senator!
"Why do we always allow these repubs to frame the debate? The talk going on now is “the surge just started 2 weeks ago, so give it time”! We know the “surge” started 6 months ago."
Or approximately One Friedman.
Well that was certainly short of Boxer.
It wasn't on the table three days ago, when I got this response from her after I demanded that George Bush be impeached.
Dear Mr. Montague:
Thank you for contacting me regarding President Bush's decision to commute Lewis "Scooter" Libby's prison sentence. I appreciate hearing from you, and I share your concerns.
Mr. Libby was convicted by a jury on charges of perjury and obstruction of justice in the investigation into who leaked the identity of CIA undercover agent Valerie Plame. Following federal sentencing guidelines, the judge then sentenced Mr. Libby to two and a half years in prison.
I am deeply disturbed that President Bush has chosen to ignore the decisions of the judicial system.
Mr. Libby was part of an operation to punish a leading war critic and squelch dissent on the Iraq war. It is high time this President started protecting American families and stop protecting his lawbreaking friends.
I will do all I can to see that the President's action remains before the public as another example of the culture of corruption of this Administration.
Again, thank you for writing to me. Please contact me again about this or other issues of concern to you.
Barbara Boxer
United States Senator
caye @ 12:
Does she keep them on her desk, all five clacking and swaying in unison?
[Deleted. Spamming-Sitemonitor]
Nice start, but we need less talk and more action. Impeach now.
GOOOOO California!
abiodun @ 10:
Isn't it the truth....and what make me most angry is that the MSM lets that kind of
shit go unchallenged. Look at the number available...the "Surge" started in late Jan.
when first group of additional military personnal were sent, and in each subsequent
month(Feb thru July) more have been sent. WTF. Is the media so fu...... lazy
that it cannot report facts instead of more and more lies by this admin.???
If you don't impeach these criminals, then anyone can get away with anything. Do you really want to live in a dictatorship that has no consequences for actions? Well, you do.
Off topic, sorry
Does anyone know if Iraqi parliament took their 2 month vacation? I haven't heard anything from MSM or the Internet. Please direct to a news source that has this info.
Thanks!
17 Jim Montague
Can you provide a link or address for Barbara Boxer?
What we have for "senators" for Texas think it's their job to represent boosh and be his apologists, when they should be representing us.
Tom Anderson @ 24:
Last I heard is they may only take 1 month. Still 1 month too long.
Ron, no politician is going to read a letter that long, they just aren't. Hell, I'm not. You have to make it fairly short and to the point if you want to get your point across.
Just some friendly advice :)
Unless you impeach they will veto and ignore.
And you will get NOTHING done.
It's as simple as that.
Senator@Boxer.Senate.Gov
pissed off patricia @ 27:
No true, I sent a similar letter of similar length to Barney Franks and he DID read it and personally responded.
It was a weak ass response, something about other priorities we need to do and things we need to pass, but it was read and responded to.
Barney like Nancy doesn't get that they will be vetoed unless they impeach.
I heard today the Iraqi govt will take Aug. off. I guess bush will do his usual month long holiday along with our senators and reps. Seems everyone gets a break but the soldiers who are fighting and dying for who the hell knows what.
pissed off patricia @ 27:
It's a new Declation of Independence. If they havn't read anything that long then they need to. I would hope that they have read the original and the constitution. Why do you think they have staffers. Just help out and send it.
I didn't say there would be no response, I said that pols don't read really long letters. They may scan them, but I doubt they sit back and read every single word. If you can get your message in just a few sentences it doesn't look like such a reading task ahead.
OK Babs; You're off my shit list.. Maybe you ought to take a walk over to Nancy's office and have a little sitdown with her...
Apparently she's not seeing things the same way you are... OR 2 3rds of the rest of the country either.............
If this leads to something, then fine.. So far, just words...JD
Impeach the bastards!!
Senator Boxer's views aside, there is NO DIFFERENCE between the investigations going forward in the House Committees and some impeachment-labelled process. They take the same amount of time, and they run into the same limitations of DEMOCRACY, which are NOT the fault of Speaker Pelosi or Chairman Conyers.
The recent push for impeachment began -- oddly -- two weeks before the biggest appropriations fight affecting the Iraq war of the year.
• Great timing! Whose brilliant idea was that?
Secondly, it completely ignores the FACT of a conspiracy stretching not just through the Executive, but through the SCOTUS, the media, the Congress, and the rest of the MILITARY INDUSTRIAL CONGRESSIONAL COMPLEX.
Trying to correct a coup with impeachment will never work. It is entirely unfair to expect the Dems to take the whole weight of that process -- and until we have 20 R Senators ready to vote for conviction, it is a process without a result. And that is intolerable.
• It also is a process which would elevate Speaker Pelosi to the White House, which will lead to 100 years of 'partisanship' cries from the bastards who run the R party, whoever they will be if the party survives.
The R need to start the impeachment. WHY don't activists face that fact? Because they KNOW that the R is complicit, and yet they intend to shove Speaker Pelosi into that crisis, because of their own desperation. They are dumping on OUR best representatives, because activists REFUSE to do the heavy lifting of convincing 20 R Senators that the time has come.
• Senator Boxer is one of our favorites. But on this count she is wrong, wrong, wrong. She raises her own numbers by increasing the load on the Speaker of the other body. That's easy for her, but it is bad caucus politics, and Senators ought not call for impeachment UNLESS THEY HAVE THE VOTES IN THEIR BODY. And they don't.
Indictment processes require removing the Attorney General. GET ON THAT, Sen. BOXER. Do YOUR work.
What an inexplicably strong statement from a Democrat.
She *is* still a Democrat, right?
Here's an example of someone I can support, based on what she says and does.
I still feel no need to blindly worship a political party.
pissed off patricia @ 33:
Sometimes if a person in a higher position is challenged, as we are doing here, they pay more attention and may take some action.
Let's get impeachment back on the table. Start building momentum. Let's take back America from this criminal administration. Spread the word. At the bottom of all my emails, my signature automatically includes numbers to call in Washington to demand impeachment of Bush and Cheney.
The best thing to do is flood your congress people, Nancy Pelosi's phone lines and mail box demanding George Bush and Dickless Cheney be held accountable for their crimes, including impeachment. It's probably the only way to get Bush's attention, although I'm sure he'll try to worm his way around it.
it's great to see that ball rolling. now it just needs to gather momemtum and then allow the suits to take it over and see it will fly. we're always just a little too cautious in our moves with a trillion reasons why it won't work and why we shouldn't. the impeachment process should actually have begun years ago. i believe there was enough on the scumbags then to impeach.
final note, listening now to big eddy, it's good to hear him finally jump aboard. i think it was only last week when he was playing the "why it would be a bad move" card. i won't stay on the subject too long. he's syndicated and really does have a wide listenership so with him now railing for impeachment, maybe it will happen. i'm just afraid that the "suits" will also have to go through all of the travails the late comers have gone through before they are ready to begin the process. this is all reminiscent of we need to have an orderly withdrawal, because if we pull out all at once and suddenly that country will be enveloped in violence and chaos. yeh, right, like it isn't now.
I think we should all start buying our drugs from other countries. Also, buy your gas only from Chavez's stations. Pharmaceutical and oil companies going down the tubes what a great idea. The media kisses the asses of both. Wouldn't it be nice to see Bush's best friends suffer for what they have done?
this is soooo frustrating, i just don't understand why impeachment is not on everyone's agenda. why is pelosi so against it?
DUAL CHIMPEACH!
The way Boxer handles that handle makes me wonder how many other handles she's handled.
Ron @ 32:
Another way to take action as to Impeachement is to join in w/Ramsey Clark in his
efforts to have rallies in D.C. on Sept. 15th. I noted on another of C&L's post earlier
today, a website for Ramsey Clark...to be used by those who support the Impeachment
and who are willing to either personally participate or make a donatation/contribution to
the "Impeachement Cause". Sorry to say, I did not "save" the website, but maybe someone
else did and can post it here, for we ALL need to get involved and kick those SOB's out
of D.C.
Impeachment is way over due, overdue for chenny for bush for gonzales and all the rest of the enablers who have allowed the theft of our government. In fact if there is no justice for these criminals than this country is nothing but an expensive joke. How can we teach our children to adhere to law for the good of society when it's obviously not practiced by these rich fools. These guys are so far getting away with this. Looks to me like they are planning on laughing all the way to their comfortable retirements and turning over the books to their chosen offspring to continue stealing all the money for the next two hundred years.
Impeachment is important, required. Otherwise we have a lawless society which will only destroy itself with haste. Law is a foundation for democracy.
Do what we've been calling for since 2003!
Impeach the whole damn lot of them!
Put it on the table along with the thousands of other things... that is what they were elected to do and that is their constitutional duty; to do the people's business!
This idea that the government will come to a screeching halt is bull shit, plain and simple.
The idea that if we pull our troops out as soon as humanly possible that Iraq will slide into a full bore civil war (as if it's not already) is more of the same.
The world won't come crashing if we impeach and retrieve our stolen rights and bring back Habeas and end the spying and burn the patriot act and close gitmo instead of doubling it and fix our health care system and SSecurity and fund rebuilding Iraq, etc etc etc.
But... it may well be, that if we do not act on these issues, along with impeachment, that the world will indeed come crashing... or knocking.
Since Great Britain helped us topple a dictator in Iraq, maybe it's time for them to help us topple another.
Time to prove their so great.
i'm not voting for anyone who doesn't fully support the idea of impeaching and jailing this son of a bitch and all his croney friends. dems better get their crap together NOW!
Thanks Ron and Pissed Off Patricia
Fantastic, Barbara! Now stop telling Ed about it and introduce the damned articles, already.
Hmmmm, sounds like Babs has some cahones in her boxers.
Paul in LA, you keep repeating your argument and I just don't get it. It sounds like something I heard Dick Armey say at a town hall meeting.
"I'd rather do the wrong thing for the right reason, than the right thing for the wrong reason." - Sen Dick Armey Tx-R
You're arguing in my view, to do the wrong thing, because we might fail in doing the right thing. Fear of failure is your reason for not make the moral choice.
As an aside, if my nephew dies in Iraq while Congress argues about this, would you like a souvenir to remind you of your efforts to get him killed?
Democrats, please respond to the atrocities against the United Sates by Bush. You have no more important business in the Congress than to save our democracy from this delusional autocrat through impeachment. Please don't waste more time on partisan legislation that Bush will only veto. You have one mission; save our democracy.
Barbara Boxer is a vacuous garden gnome.
Would they impeach bush if he made a deal with Osama?
1. bush does not go after him and allows him safe haven in Pakistan
2. in return Osama agrees not to attack the US
3. pressure taken off Musharaff allowing him to remain in power with blair poodle status
4. bush has a perpetual boogey man to justify power grab, spying, and constitution decimation
if a presidential candidate is too much of a wuss to introduce an article for impeachment then i don't believe they have what it take to run our country.
TIKI AL @ 58:
Bush doesn't worry about Osama anymore. Al Queda has been marginalized and is no longer effective. Al Queda is also the greatest threat to Democracy.
Osama Bin Laden is under your bed! Booo!
POP--A nice big bowl of impeachment with whipped cream on top! It's the season for it......
Madame Speaker: Take notes from your colleague and fellow Californian Ms. Boxer.
Put Chimpeachment ON THE TABLE where it belongs!
I hate to say this but the Republicans who lack ethics, morality, and honesty, play the game of politics better and with more gusto and nerve. They organized an impeachment mob against Clinton when the majority of the people didn't feel that it was called for over a marital transgression and his lies to hide it from his family and the public. None of us even believed that his lies were true. No parents of teenagers who have heard similar tales believed it. Only some stone throwers who probably should have been aiming at a now Louisiana senator were armed for the attack. No one died. No one's rights were taken away. No one was tortured. The Constitution wasn't shredded. Monica was young but she wasn't coerced. Now, we have the "mob" in power and they are essentially burning the Constitution (not the flag of course) before our very eyes and we have to stand by and watch it. Barbara, you are saying the right thing, but talk is cheap. What warning or lesson does this give the next dictator? We are watching everyday as Bush and company continue to do whatever they want to our rights. We are mad as hell. We have played the game. We pay our taxes. We support our country. Stand up and shout! Tell Congress that is not merely gagging us. He is destroying our country. Things can get a whole lot worse in the next sixteen months.
kkkarl rove campaigned in '06 on the GOP's "fear" that if dems took control of congress they would look to impeach chimpy (hence pelosi's statement that they would not pursue impeachment)...
i say it is time to make kkkarl rove look honest, for once in his life, and pursue impeachment.
if not for illegal wars, torture, spying on citizens, katrina, OBL, 9/11, etc... then for what?
57 Pechorin, re vacuous: Go to the word in Dictionary.com, and what you find describes Your Man Bush to a T.
Impeach pie is a dish best served cold. Come ON, Congress, file impeachment papers against the whole passel of 'em. It's hot in herre.
Go Barbara Boxer!! Impeachment should NEVER have been off the table. If there was ever a time the Constitution demanded it, this is that time. If we don't stop these radical abuses of power now, what happens when the next administration comes in, especially, God forbid, if it's Republican? American democracy as we once knew it will cease to exist. Let's get going on this thing. We simply can't afford to wait out Bush's term. Stop the arrogance and abuse of power. The Unitary Executive theory is a load of crap.
steve davis @ 53:
Articles of Impeachement are ONLY introduced in the U.S. House of Rep, NOT in the
US Senate, where Ms. Boxer resides.
#47 Doggiebobo:
The website for Ramsey Clark is: www.impeachbush.org
Get active and get involved...
stogoe @ 6:
Are you for real??
Can they not stop impeachment?
I don't believe a word she says. I believe that she is pandering for support at reelection time. On a matter of time the Enterprise was sent out there and who wants to bet if it is going to be the next 9-11. That ship is over 40 years old and was due to be decommissioned. There are so many others they could send out there. My bet is that it is a set-up for Iran.
[Please don't post in all bold. Thanks-Sitemonitor]
Losing steam?...
Take the SOB's out and those policies will most likely be able to be erased and reversed with little effort...
man... That is a weak cop out...
Pathetic really..
Oh please - Senator Boxer thou protest too much too late. Where have you been all this time - oh silly me. You had ample time to rise up against this ghastly war before the last election but you did not. You did have time to butt into the Lamont/Leiberman campaign in CT against all reason and counsel and pimp for the disgraced war monger Leiberman, sticking the country with six more years of treachery from his opportunistic neo/Republican sorry ass. Why should we hapless constituents take anything you say seriously much less the rest of the country.
Well...it's about fucking time to take impeachment off the table and put it on the floor of the House and the Senate!
honesty @ 71:
I assume you are referring to the Aircraft Carrier "Enterprise", currenly enroute to
the coast off of Iran where it will join the LARGEST group of sea craft ever assembled
in that region. It is due to arrive in that local in early to mid-August 2007.
Doggiebobo @ 75:
By the way, yes the Enterprise is due to be decommissoned; but not until 2012 to 2014,
at earliest....so it's rather silly to assume the Navy is sending an "old/outdated" carrier
to that region just to have it used as another 9/11...At least that's my thoughts..
Pechorin @ 57:
So states another bible thumping republican serf. Be brave, join the party of the masses. Live your own dreams not your lords. Do you think they give a shit about you? The only attention lords give serfs is molesting their kids. Think of all the freedoms we could have if enough serfs woke up.
JustSickOfIt @ 23:
Um, isn't that what 'dictatorship' is?
I hope impeachment's back on the table. The unitary executive theoriests have to pay for all the lives and treasure they have caused us to lose
Impeaching for blow jobs is much more fun. This is boring. Can we go now?
Bout friggin time. Jeez!
Is this the same Barbara Boxer who made a special trip all the way to Connecticut last year to tell us why we should back Joe Lieberman? Just asking.
did anyone realize that she just said a bold faced lie?
"Look, I have always said it should be on the table."
wrong she said in more than one interview prior to the election of 06 that "impeachment is off the table". now that cindy sheehan threatened to run against her in the next election if she doesn't put in impeachment on the table, she reverses her words.
OK, lets not only put it on the table, lets put it at the forefront of this congress' business!
barbara boxer for president
mister mix @ 83:
I think Sheehan is considering a run against Nancy Pelosi, not Boxer.
DEMOCRATS, WAKE UP! IMPEACH!!!
How can anyone think about impeaching the engineer and conductor of this train?
Stocks Soar to New Highs on Retail Sales
Stocks Barrel to Records on Retail Sales Reports; Dow Posts Biggest Gain in Nearly 4 Years
Through all the din of the opposition to tax cuts that supposedly would bankrupt our economy, he stood resolute and prevailed. Sure, he took a chance that his plan would backfire and his popularity might wane, but he did what in his heart he thought was right for our country.
One should hope that his legacy would not center on his economic successes alone though.
Doggiebobo Says:
I assume you are referring to the Aircraft Carrier “Enterprise”, currenly(SIC) enroute(SIC) to
the coast off of Iran where it will join the LARGEST group of sea craft ever assembled
in that region. It is due to arrive in that local in early to mid-August 2007.
By the way, yes the Enterprise is due to be decommissoned(SIC); but not until 2012 to 2014,
at earliest….so it’s rather silly to assume the Navy is sending an “old/outdated” carrier
to that region just to have it used as another 9/11…At least that’s my thoughts..
So that "largest battle group ever assembled off of Iran" part you wrote does not cause you to pause? My opinion stands and what I'm seeing is that that old carrier might just be a sacrifice (9-11/Pearl Harbor type of event) to kick off the next front. It is clear that 9-11 worked well to kick off the first 2 fronts! Now they can have a trifecta!
7 years of stuff to fix is right. First you must get rid of the instigators and stop the flow. Once they're gone, the fixing can begin. Not the othewr way around. (You reading this Madam Speaker?)
C. Montgomery Burns @ 85:
Exactly, and I think a better term is Cindy S. " is THREATENING to run...." but that too
is absurd.
mister mix @ 83:
I don't believe any of these creatures in DC! Both ends are playing against the middle, it is that simple and we fall for it over and over and over....
C. Montgomery Burns @ 85:
you are correct mr burns- it is PELOSI who said "impeachment is off the table."
dennis @ 87:
and foolish minions continue to buy into the DOW "highs," not factoring crucial factors, like the fact that the dollar has decreased so significantly that the "record highs" mean little if anything...they also fail to recognize that cost of living is rising while income averages are not matching, not to mention the dearth of healthcare funding, and the extreme debt to china while military spending soars (among the highest in the world). if anyone is benefiting, it is merely the engineer and conductor of this thrashing train. not us, and not enamored syncopates.
Barbara is right. Impeachment has NEVER been off the table and NO ONE can take it off the table without a Constitutional Amendment!!!!
Nancy Pelosi was just trying to shirk her duty, because it will be hard. But impeachment MUST begin now, because this is the very situation it was intended to remedy. NOT to impeach would be dereliction of duty by this congress.
Battleaxe,
All those crucial factors are factored in to the Dow averages, or the stock market in general more correctly. If those things were all amiss as you suggest, then scores of companies would not hit their earnings projections, their market values would erode and market bids for their stocks would decline. You'd see it conveyed in the market averages. We're not seeing that, we're seeing just the opposite. We all benefit in a growing economy whether you agree or not, almost all of us anyway, not equally necessarily, but a hell of a lot more than if the stock market was tanking like Democrats said it would.
"Paul in LA, you keep repeating your argument and I just don’t get it. It sounds like something I heard Dick Armey say at a town hall meeting." -- weaseldog
If you don't understand the issues, you won't understand my argument.
"You’re arguing in my view, to do the wrong thing, because we might fail in doing the right thing. Fear of failure is your reason for not make the moral choice."
No, you want to throw flour and water up in the air and have it come down pizza dough.
"As an aside, if my nephew dies in Iraq while Congress argues about this, would you like a souvenir to remind you of your efforts to get him killed?"
An impeachment would take A YEAR AT LEAST. So you can hang your guilt trip around your own Christmas tree -- that's no better than what would be expected from Republicans. It is neither my fault, no Speaker Pelosi's fault, nor the fault of the Democratic party, nor the fault of your nephew.
I personally have spent more than 500 hours in street protest since this began, and when we were in the minority I fought, daily, for impeachment for TWO YEARS. So, no, guilt trips don't apply.
• IMPEACHMENT HAS NEVER WORKED. It is not sufficient to remove the Executive, but we don't have the Senate votes for conviction, so it's just desperation and hopefulness, from good people who simply don't understand our situation.
Here's a clue: Just because one of our most liberal Senators says she supports impeachment DOES NOT GIVE US THE TWENTY REPUBLICAN VOTES WE NEED FOR CONVICTION.
• You want to do something? Bombard THEIR mailboxes. Bombard the Republicans who we need to vote for conviction.
Otherwise, I side with Chairman Conyers, who knows this issue COLD, who sat on Nixon's impeachment committee, and who wrote a book listing 25 major federal crimes by Bushco. How many of you have read it?
http://tinyurl.com/2f98w8
And I support Speaker Pelosi, who has recognized, as you lot haven't, that impeachment doesn't remove conspiracies and coups. Impeachment has NEVER worked, and won't work (*yet).
Without sufficient votes for CONVICTION, we will NOT begin an impeachment.
The amount of evidence written by the Committees is forcing change in the Republican caucus. That's the gameplan, and it IS working. Even if impeachment was started on January 4, it would not have stopped the Iraq invasion, or the coup, or the conspiracy. What it would have done is rip the Congress into tatters, and destroy our Constitution -- ROVE'S PLAN.
Go get your cookie from Karl, because you are actually helping him, not yourselves.
[...] Clark Link to Article nancy pelosi Barbara Boxer says Impeachment should be on the table » Posted at [...]
"Barbara is right. Impeachment has NEVER been off the table and NO ONE can take it off the table without a Constitutional Amendment!!!!"
Impeachment has been off the table since 1800.
It is a POLITICAL STUNT, not an actual power of Congress.
The two times it was used were BOTH partisan crimes by Congress.
• We are in the middle of a rightwing coup. The only available way to remove that coup is to chip away at it using the non-SCOTUS tier of the federal bench. We need Special Prosecutors, but we can't get them until we remove Gonzales. Working to force him from office would be a FAR better effort than trying to shake Speaker Pelosi from her clearheaded grasp of the situation.
She's second generation political genius. She's YOUR BEST FRIEND.
Disaffiliated leftists don't support the Dems anyhow, and are happy to score meaningless points in order to bash the Dems. Gold Star Mother Sheehan's latest absurdity is just another iteration of that.
You SEE, with your own eyes, how complicit the Republicans in Congress are. But you want to throw flour and water up in the air and hope for pizza dough.
Speaker Pelosi is a far better cook than you. She knows that the flour has to be kneaded into dough, and that takes a lot of pounding. Instead of joining her in forcing the media to out Bushco's crimes, in order to SHAME the Republicans into supporting the removal of the conspiracy (*including especially the AG torturer), you are just seizing on MEANINGLESS pieces of thread like Senator Boxer's recent comment. Others are seizing on the thirteen backers of Kucinich's bill -- as if that is suddenly going to balloon to 218 votes, like magic.
• PLEASE try to understand instead of giving in to desperation and hopefulness.
"honesty Says: I don’t believe a word she says. I believe that she is pandering for support at reelection time."
• Educate yourself before you open your pie-hole.
Senator Boxer was reelected in 2004 by THE LARGEST MARGIN IN HISTORY. She is now the Chief Deputy Whip (about third in order from Leader Reid).
She does not come up for reelection until 2010. She has solid support in the state, if she decides to run, without a doubt.
"She had decided to retire in 2004 but says she decided to recontest to "fight for the right to dissent" against conservatives like Tom DeLay. After facing no primar[y] opposition in the 2004 election, Boxer decisively defeated [the] Republican candidate ...by a margin of 20%, garnering the highest number of votes in the history of direct elections for the U.S. Senate (with 6,955,728 votes[12]) ...and the third highest vote total in the country in 2004 [that is, the Presidential race]" -- wikipedia
God Bless Barabara Boxer, I vote for her every chance I get and she always agrees with me...Dubya is a thug running a crime family.
marie @ 82:
Yes, that's her!
She, like Conyers, Leahy, and Levin, are ALL TALK AND NO ACTION!
Mike Gravel has already laid it out clearly for the Congressional Dems as to how to FIGHT this lawless administration.
No one except Kucinich has done BUPKIS!!
Christ, I heard Conyers practically whining today about how Harriet wouldn't come for her subpeona!
Why isn't her ass in jail now? For too long, civility in Congress merely reinforces weakness.
Great that Boxer and I are on the same page. Now she must follow through with her statements.
Jonathan @ 102:
Don't hold your breath.
IMPEACHMENT HAS been on the table since our founding father created it to prevent politicians from abuses of power and to prevent TYRANNY.
The fact that this Congress is ignoring and evading this REMEDY when the people call for Nancy Pelosi is in itself an ABUSE of POWER. POWER to NOT use IMPEACHMENT as a remedy.......FOR POLITICAL purposes and for POLITICAL conveniences is misusing the power that the VOTERS handed to the SPEAKER. When a crime occurs especially in this MAGNITUDE where PEOPLE are dying and taxpayers are being squandered not for NATIONAL SECURITY but to enrich the War-Profiteers. And lying about it to the the people that it is for National Security is even WORSE. BUSH created the National Security Risk that we face today. His policy and his administration created this mess, so that "NATION BUILDER" can profit. Create destruction to create building construction.
WHAT a waste of our RESOURCES. WHAT a waste of human lives. If there is any one who deserve to be called EVIL-DOERS. WE have plenty of inventory here at HOME.
All well and good until we got to the end of Boxer's statement about Pelosi's priority the need to reverse 7 years of bad policy first.
WHAT THE FUCK??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Paul in L.A.@97, YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS MY ATTENTION:
"The only available way to remove that coup is to chip away at it using the non-SCOTUS tier of the federal bench. We need Special Prosecutors, but we can’t get them until we remove Gonzales. Working to force him from office would be a FAR better effort than trying to shake Speaker Pelosi from her clearheaded grasp of the situation."
Do you think these media stories bubbling up on all sides are a deliberate attempt to shake them out of the tree? ALL these exposures and stories happening, is it cooincidence or coordinated? What do you think?
At first when I heard this, I was enthused & pleased. But I gave it some thought (also, I am a Californian & familiar w/ the protagonists) & realized they're prob. only playing Good & Bad Cop. #68 makes a vital pt.: impeachment starts in the House & Boxer's a Senator. She can feed the true base (bloggers, anti-war) w/ strong words, but Nancy will protect the Chimp as she's promised.
Both Pelosi & Boxer get 100% approval ratings from AIPAC, if I'm not mistaken, and look higher on the site to see the cheerful news of our Senate's endorsement of a new War w/Iran since the old one's getting a bad rep. When Boxer first got elected she seemed to be sincerely progressive, even borderline radical, but she's inside the beltway & utterly compromised by now
impeachment, laughable. democrats bringing forth impeachment proceedings, nah, no way, they are too close to the koolaid and too fearful of the bush machine. so do as nancy says, take it off the table. hand them the keys the credit card the car and the money, they win. the slimey bastards win again. and all this time some thought bush was stupid. he's not. he's devious. the only ones i would tag with the stupid label are the dems. but then it has to be a two word label for them, stupid pussies. so totally disgusted with them. go down on your shield not on your knees begging for mercy.
99 Paul in LA Says:
Who do you think you are looser telling me what to do. You shut your pie hole! Now my opinion is that both parties constitute one massive plutocracy PERIOD. Anything these people say it pandering. Now what I should have said was elections in the Dem party!
Why didn't the Democrats figure that if the Republicans were worried about impeachment that perhaps they knew it was a reasonable step? Thank you Senator Boxer. Now if the rest of the Democratic leaders could grow a spine.
Ruthless People @ 2:
California SENATOR......
A damn good one at that...
Voted for her since I was 18
You know, I have supported Senator Boxer for several years now via her website. I have given money, constituent support for her "programs" and on and on and on ... I mentioned the fact recently on her website that not only should the Speaker of the House, but Senator Boxer should also make impeachment a TOP priority and handle all of the other issues when these tyrants are removed as it would certainly make all the other "Programs/Projects" much easier to handle once the tyrants are removed -- so would you PLEASE make impeachment the number one "project" for now and all else will fall into place.
I reminded the good Senator that the reason I voted for the Democrats was the fact that more woman would be in power. I thought these women would take a strong stance on the issue of impeachment. Boy, was I ever wrong! Talk about your spineless wimps. Now Senator Boxer says impeachment is on the table. What table? And exactly what does that mean for her and the Speaker of The House?
The reply I received. I am a California Senator and therefore you should contact your State Senators regarding the subject of impeachment. I serve the constituents of California. Excuse me Senator Boxer but you quickly enough took money from a Pennsylvania Constituent, namely me. You had no qualms with my backing your "project/programs." You and The Speaker of The House need to grow backbones. I can't believe these woman are so spineless! At least some male senators are on board (not on the table) with the subject of impeachment and I believe Senator Spector of Pennsylvania is one of them.
For voting for Bush in 2000 those that voted for him and there were plenty and more in 2004 I hope you get the Monarchy you all deserve. We know he stole the vote in 2000, but let's face it: You, Me The Senate, The Congress, The Supreme Court you name it all went along with King Bush's agenda. WE ARE ALL RESPONSIBLE. What's done is done no turning back now. No way will the simpering Congress or the Senate impeach either of them. Oh you might see some mention of impeachment but they will not do it. Notice how quickly they attempted to impeach Clinton? And for what? A blow-job!
caye @ 12:
I would rather that you took our other senator ;)
IMPEACH THE WAR CRIMINALS NOW !!!!!!!!
I will not give the Democratic Party another dime until they start talking about impeachment. I am tired of all this table talk. Laws have clearly been broken, treaties have been violated, and nothing is really being done. Start now and you will be done by Christmas.
And here's a flash Harry and Nancy, nothing is getting accomplished anyway. Republicans have vowed to block every thing that you do. So give up and start impeachment proceedings on both Bush and Cheney (stick Gonzo in there too).
[...] BOXER: Yeah. I mean, you left out a bunch of things — spying on citizens without a warrant, going around FISA, on and on. Look, I have always said it should be on the table. Ed, I’ve always said it. I was on a book tour and I ran into John Dean of Watergate fame. He was on the book tour that I was on, for his book. And it was right after we discovered that the administration was spying on our people without a warrant. And he just said, he looked at me and basically just said, as far as he could see, unless there was some explanation for this, this was impeachable. I’ve always said that you need to keep it on the table, and you need to look at these things, because now people are dying because of this administration. That’s the truth. And they won’t change course. They are ignoring the Congress. They keep signing these signing statements which mean that he’s decided not to enforce the law. This is as close as we’ve ever come to a dictatorship. When you have a situation where Congress is stepped on, that means the American people are stepped on. So I don’t think you can take anything off the table. Because in fact the Constitution doesn’t permit us to take these things off the table. MORE [...]
"Do you think these media stories bubbling up on all sides are a deliberate attempt to shake them out of the tree? ALL these exposures and stories happening, is it cooincidence or coordinated? What do you think?" -- crazylove
These exposures are a DIRECT result of outings by the Dem-led committees, and the blogs.
"And here’s a flash Harry and Nancy, nothing is getting accomplished anyway. Republicans have vowed to block every thing that you do. So give up and start impeachment proceedings on both Bush and Cheney (stick Gonzo in there too)." -- Betty
20 Republican Senators' votes.
Until you have that, you do NOT have a process with a known end. Giving Bushco the agenda, allowing the R in Congress to hide behind their patriotism, and then allowing the partisan SCOTUS to review the whole matter -- these are SURRENDERS of what should be steady indictment outings and the resulting pressure on the cronies blocking the legal process.
Gonzales, and USA Taylor are the cronies in the way.
Replacing them is basic to any return to a legal Executive. Impeachment will not work without those indictments; and with them, the political act of impeachment is not necessary. Consider how much better it would be for the country for this NOT to be politicized by impeachment, but rather pursued successfully to a legal conclusion that prevents the claim of partisanship.
"The reply I received. I am a California Senator and therefore you should contact your State Senators regarding the subject of impeachment. I serve the constituents of California. Excuse me Senator Boxer but you quickly enough took money from a Pennsylvania Constituent, namely me." -- Baekland
If you sent money to Boxer's campaign, you wasted it. I'll quote from above,
"Boxer decisively defeated [the] Republican candidate …by a margin of 20%, garnering the highest number of votes in the history of direct elections for the U.S. Senate."
She didn't need your contribution, and, yes, it is indeed the case that Senators owe their duty to their states, and to the country at large ONLY as the US Senate.
But I don't think you gave donation to Boxer's campaign in the first place.
Senator Barbara Boxer is very correct on keeping the impeachment issue on the table because it keeps the Bush Crime Family on notice. Its obious to us that every day Bush, Cheney and et al. gives us the finger everyday and they also know the Dems can be easily bullied and never stand up to them. I know Nancy Pelosi wants to focus on undoing the damage Bush has done on America for the past 6 years he has invaded the White House. But I have to warn Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid that ignoring the impeachment issue will be at your own political peril . If aren't going to have put the impeachment on the table WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO DO IT???? When Bush dissolves Congress or delares martial law ?? When's it going to happen Please read my article about impeachment at my blog The VORB I know we got a war to end and other things but this is important. We can bring the troops home and impeach the Bush Crime Family at the same time!
"they also know the Dems can be easily bullied and never stand up to them."
They never stand up to them, which is why 20 cronies have resigned as a direct result of Congressional investigations, Harriet Miers is getting a contempt charge, Rove is about to be subpoena'd, Gonzales has committed perjury and likely will be found in contempt (and thereby potentially disbarred and removed from office), Cheney tried his 'fourthbranch' nonsense and now is known to be guilty of a huge number of felony classification violations, and Boy Wonder himself has commuted a sentence in order to obstruct justice.
What YOU are complaining about is that the law is slow, especially when blocked by cronies. But there is a MAJOR difference between 'getting away with it,' and being on the verge of multiple indictments.
We just need a tiny bit of JUSTICE. You, meanwhile, are caught up in a myth about the Democrats, and have no faith in the law. Do you really think that Bush at 25% and his cronies is invulnerable to the legal process?
An impeachment process is a POLITICAL manuever which doesn't work. We need to clear the clog in the Justice Department drain, and we are right on the verge of doing so. Thanks to the Dem chairmen and Speaker Pelosi, and Reid to whatever degree.
Paul in LA @ 121:
Paul maybe you are right But I do have faith in the Dems and in the law. I am personally slow to the impeachment bandwagon and I'm fully on board on it yet but what i hear for the people out there that they are fustrated every day that what Pelosi has said of "keeping impeachment off the table" is fustrating some people out there that the Dems aren't doing their jobs. They want the dems to do something right now and get bush out of the white house ASAP. I read the blogs and some people out there have a lot of contempt for Reid and Pelosi of not doing it fast enough and now you have Cindy Sheehan who wants to challenge Pelosi's seat if she doesn't do what she wants. I really think Sheehan's actions is very futile, childish and naive but what do you tell the people who wants some action from the Dems besides waiting it out? You have the Bushies out there doing things that upsets the people (the Harriet Miers no show at Congress for example) and they want the Dems to do something about this. Paul what would you tell them?
"I’m fully on board on it yet..."
Sorry typo, It should be: I'm not fully on board on it yet..."
Could someone please explain to me why, insted of impeachent, why the entire administration isn't in jail?
If I'm 5 minutes over on a parking meter, I'm getting a ticket. How many more laws are they going to break? They break them faster than Congress can pass them,...
John, could you start posting some phone numbers every day for Pelosi, Reid and switchboards of senate and house. Some of US who read you regularly are old and it helps. This is what WE need to be doing every day. Save Iran and a world war! Rush Holt's bill HR811 is scheduled soon for a vote in the House. It will perpetuate non transparency in elections. He is a dem. says most Americans don't care...Bill Gates won out over US..he has a business in his district that would make money on continuing theft of democracy.(according to an interview with him on bradblog) If Bush could steal 2 elections, you know a lot of the repubs. and probably some dems. in D.C. weren't fairly elected...hoping they will do the right thing is like whistling in the dark. They need to be turned out.Rahm Emmanuel went around the country discouraging progressives from running. My dem. opponent to Olympia Snowe , who was progressive did not get a penny from the dems.
[Deleted-Sitemonitor]
Here's the problem. Boxer, Pelosi, Conyers give us explanations that don't make sense to us. Boxer's statement here was coherent until she reached the baffling end-statement that Pelosi's main concern is undoing 7 years of bad policy, a priority over impeachment.
Why gather the press at all, raise hopes and then end with the now-customary-two-fingers-in-the-eye-what-the-hell-just-happened?
We know that is a bizarrely impossible nonsensical thing to say because it is impossible to do that as things stand and they have 7 years of frustrated failures and kicks in the head to prove it.
Why did Boxer not offer a straightup statement instead of veering off into a fork? THAT is what has people feeling betrayed and understandably hysterical and not understanding the committee process...because she, Pelosi and Conyers and those we trust are not trusting us by giving us straight responses!
I count myself among many who felt hopeful and expectant we would hear the purpose of Boxer's press statements fulfilled. She ought to have taken that opportunity to address the public in a STRAIGHTFORWARD manner that respects and informs their TRUE intentions. Instead we were given pablum, and a maddening insult of a striptease.
I become an hysterical fool when set up to slip on a banana peel, and that's exactly what Boxer did at this press conference.
Hey, guys. Lets not forget that politics is always very much theatre. Who really cares if Pelosi "says" it's on the table. Did not Kucinich introduce a bill to impeach the Vice President awhile back? From a strategic point, what does anyone gain if Pelosi says impeachment is on the table? It's certainly not going to convert anyone from one side or another. Rather, it will just make people on all respective sides of a coin dig their heels in.
Pelosi is doing it right. Let the investigations continue. With the ongoing war, and the regular airing of further scandal in this administration, along with more key players inching closer and closer to contempt and perjury charges, more people are warming up to the impeachment idea. Let all the other reps discuss impeachment and bring it up. Pelosi doesn't have to. To sum up her "impeachment is off the table" comment as easilly as possible, just remember that the ongoing right-wing meme and talking point when she became the Speaker was that she would be pursuing impeachment because she wanted to be President and it would allow her a backdoor into that office. Let Boxer and everyone else turn up the heat on impeachment. When it's politically feasible (and considering you need a 2/3ds majority vote to convict and remove in the Senate, where the split is fairly even along party lines, thus making "politics" key), Pelosi isn't going to stop it from happening. But, we aren't there yet.
Erin, then why did they not simply state the case:
"We are approaching a complex set of factors through the committee process".
Crazylove:
Because, at the time, the key was to undo some of the nastiness this administration had done. And they moved on that very fast and hard, as was documented here. They finally forced the President to use his veto. A tactic that was being tried at the time was to bring up impeachment. To get Pelosi to claim it was part of her agenda. And why shouldn't that have been the tactic for Republicans? For the most part, they've achieved a lot of things they wanted over the years and were first facing a real fight on it. If impeachment became the main government business, heals get dug in. Nothing moves. No agenda. Nothing. Just bickering where, in the end, there wouldn't have been enough votes for any successful impeachment anyways. So why bother? Pelosi did the right thing by saying it was "off the table." Meanwhile, even though she's said this, Kucinich somehow got a bill in there on the impeachment of Cheney. If it was off the table, how did this happen?
If Pelosi says anything else on the matter before it's actually a realistic possibility, all attention focuses to her wanting to be President. If you take out Bush and Cheney, she is the President of the United States by default. Thus, she doesn't need to say anything more than she already did. That it's off the table. Meanwhile, others have been conducting investigations and interviews of the corrupt administration, all which is moving us closer to a realistic possibility of impeachment. What would be better? To hear Pelosi say what most of us already know is the right hting to do? Or to let her remain silent while her colleagues that agree with us do their jobs in making it harder and harder for people who currently would vote "no" have to vote "yes?" There's nothing to be gained by clinging onto a final term unpopular President outside of maintaining some party strength. But, once it reaches a point where your votes in support of him may cost you your position in the future, you jump ship. I'd rather see the tactics pushing towards that scenario continue uninterrupted than seeing Pelosi come out and say what I already know is right anyways. What does her saying "we should impeach" achieve at the moment? Can anyone answer that?
Eris, your points are well-taken, however:
" Pelosi did the right thing by saying it was “off the table.” Meanwhile, even though she’s said this, Kucinich somehow got a bill in there on the impeachment of Cheney. If it was off the table, how did this happen?"
This is what the public doesn't understand. If Kucinich understood the process as he should, then why tease with such an empty gesture to a desperate public? Does he lack maturity? Did he wish to appear heroic at the expense of his party?
The messages coming out DO NOT CLARIFY and further confuse those who wish to understand. They are making people crazy.
I have no argument with any of your statements as to "why" of Pelosi's strategies.
Well, I am sure Boxer has good intentions and yet she is hijacked by Lieberman gang.
We have a new singing bee in the white house - Pelosi. Hey, Dems, Pelosi is helpless and hopeless.
Crazylove,
I don't think what Kucinich did was a tease to the public at all. Examine the timing of it and what has happened since along with other factors.
1.) Kucinich is looked at as a Dark Horse Presidential candidate. He's one of the few people that can absolutely get away with introducing such a bill with out facing scrutiny that would hold back other issues.
2.) The bill was in regards to the Vice President, not the President.
3.) The VP had been accused, and discovered, of having his nasty hands involved in multiple scandals and possible crimes.
In a sense, while I could be wrong, it is my firm belief that what Kucinich did is what frightened Cheney into acting like the amoeba he is now. Someone introduced something to give him come-uppance for his actions. In some cases, he decides to exert executive privilege in order to cover his ass from further embarrasment that would give momentum to a move to impeach him. In others, he claims he's not part of the executive branch. The guy has more or less shot himself in the foot and, as a direct result, NOBODY like the guy anymore pretty much. All it's going to take is one of these nuts to crack in the investigation and he's gone. And when it's shown that Bush was complicit in it, and not just an easilly-cowwed boob that was unaware of Cheney's actions, he goes down with him. Since impeachment is a political game due to the nature of the fact that it requires a 2/3ds vote in the Senate to be successful, you have to believe that a party has somewhat of a plan. I don't think there's any mavericks here. The more pressure that gets put on, the more this administration begins to crack. Cheney was a weak spot to hit in the furtherance of something larger.
Brother JB @ 121:
Welcome to America. It's hilarious to see that forcing Miers to risk contempt and showing that she is so weak on defense of her actions that she can't appear is somehow a sign that the Dems -- WHO DEVELOPED ENOUGH EVIDENCE OF HER CRIMES TO SUBPOENA HER -- aren't doing anything.
It's the media that is cheating the Dems out of coverage of their actions -- so no wonder people are upset.
I strongly recommend that people read Pelosi's blog on a regular basis. It is chock full of Dem goodness, videos, upcoming fights, heads-up, and healthy democratic OPTIMISM about the difficult job of driving out a conspiracy and coup.
www://speaker.gov/blog
crazylove @ 130:
You simply don't understand. ANY Representative, even a state legislature (via a Representative) can file a bill of impeachment.
• That bill is then refered to the House Judiciary Committee, where it will not get voted out to the floor, because impeachment is off the table, and Chairman Conyers agrees with the reasoning on that.
And the reasoning, since you said you don't know, is that we don't have the votes for Senate conviction.
Eris @ 132:
Yes, you are wrong.
The reason why Cheney lawyered up and tried his 'fourthbranch' argument is because Chairman Leahy and Chairman Conyers have his nards in a vice over his repeated felony violations of Executive classification law (as in 'top secret'). Cheney has been exposed as having declassified perhaps thousands of documents (which he didn't 'classify' himself) -- and that is a FELONY, every time it was done.
Kucinich's bill has 13 sponsors, and is dead in the House Judiciary Committee. Cheney knows it will not threaten him -- what threatens him is subpoenas of the documents which will prove his guilt and lead to his CRIMINAL INDICTMENT.
Impeachment is a non-criminal, political process. It removes, but it does not prosecute. INDICTMENTS cut to the chase, are NOT political (as such), and are the real stick in the eye that old bag of shit fears.
Paul in L.A.@132,
That wasn't my quote. I was quoting Eris's quote.
Paul in L.A.;
Been reading your posts, all logical and well thought out and delievered much better than I might relate... I get it.. In the perfect world I would agree with you and the strategy you basically outline... I understand the lack of votes for impeachment and how that is a big roadblock and I agree getting the AG out of the way as a block is as important as anything else.. I get it.. I just am not sure any of it matters anymore... I'm burnt out on all of it... A lot of the nation is burnt out on all of it..
Bush in some thread or one of his bullshit folksy news conferences says its war fatigue...Yea, probably but its more than that... It's Bush fatigue.. It's neocon bullshit new world order fatigue... And even though your arguments have merit and as tactical and strategic thinking goes, it's all good... But I would submit that even a failed attempt at impeachment would send a message to the rest of the world about us as a people... A good message we need to send... Other than that simple 'gut' feeling on my part and a personal desire to see all the principles in that administration in leg irons and cuffs chimping rocks in Leavenworth... I got no real argument with your perspective. But I also can see you're having a hard time selling the idea to others.............JD
Expansive, Iherent, Retained Rights and Powers of We teh People To Lawfully, Non-Violatently Oppose and Destroy This Dictatorship
Congress is ignoring the Constitution: They have illegally assented to illegal warfare; not used filibuster to block illegal bills. I could care less who was the majority or minority 2001-2007. We have the same results: Dictatorship, not change. This reckless DNC leadership has not zeroed outs budgets, but has let the GOP block Amendments. That illegally continues unlawful warfare. Time for the DNC to accept they have failed.
Congress refuses to check the President; WE the People retain the power to check the President and Congress through lawful action, national action, and powerful action by WE the People. We the People may take a broad view: Where the President defies precedent, WE the People may defy precedent.
Where the President ignores the law; WE the People must follow the law, but may use his deviation as evidence of his dictatorship.
Congress has been delegated powers. Wen those powers are not used, Congress still retains them. But We the People have the powers which have not been delegated. Those powers are infinite. The US government's powers are small, defined, and finite.
Where the Congress refuses to check, We the People retain the power and right to check: The documents, the evidence, and the power. Violence is not needed. Violence is illegal. We the People may use all lawful options to discuss what may be legally done to lawfully, without violence, end what is a dictatorship. It can be done. Our Forefathers have done it: They opposed and destroyed the dictators of the world using lawful methods. Today's world in 2007 is no different: We are equally capable of using our lawful resources to lawfully end what is not acceptable: This American dictatorship. We the People alone have the power to define it, characterize its weaknesses, and use lawful options to bring this dictatorship to an end.
These leaders in the DNC and GOP may be lawfully opposed using lawful methods. We the People retain the inherent right and power to discuss -- outside Amendments -- what process is required to lawfully transform this dictatorship, that We the People alone have the power to define -- into something that is not a dictatorship, but Consistent with the Constitution.
We the People have the power to define -- outside Congress, outside the Courts, and outside the Executive Branch -- when this US government needs to be recalibrated; and when lawful methods need to be used to correctly compel all the branches to assent to the Constitution, and ensure their operations are consistent with the Rule of Law, not this dictatorship.
We the People retain all non-delegated powers which US government have not been delegated, or not reserved to the States. Time for We the People to take an expansive view of Our Power: Each illegally asserted power of this President has a matching power of We the People to lawfully oppose that unlawful assertion of power.
We the People may openly discuss lawful methods to seek, expand, and lawfully assert our retained powers. Congress and the President have no power to deny We the People from lawfully assert all power power to end this Dictatorship.
We the People have the power to declare this US government a dictatorship; and that it is illegal to cooperate with it. Congress cannot compel We the People to cooperate with dictatorship, or this dictatorship. We the People retain the power to decide -- without any review by the Courts, President, or Congress -- what is a dictatorship. There is no precedent for We the People to follow that defines when a dictatorship begins, or how We the People -- using lawful options -- may end it. This dictatorship only lasts as long as We the People refuse to use lawful options to end it, contain it, and lawfully destroy it.
We the People retain the power and right to lawfully define this Constitution as something that is different than a dictatorship; and may compel the US government officials to choose between this dictatorship and this Constitution. We the People are with the Constitution; this President and this Congress -- both the DNC and GOP with their inaction and buffoonery -- have illegally chosen dictatorship.
We the People may openly discuss our belief about this dictatorship; and openly discuss lawful options to legally end it, lawfully destroy it, and lawfully oppose it. We the People may use any lawful power and option: All lawful options remain on the table. We the People may use them with or without notice to lawfully end, destroy, and contain this dictatorship.
We the People retain the right and power to refuse to cooperate with illegal contracts, which this dictatorship relies to advance its dictatorship;
We the People retain the power and right to define rules for We the People to lawfully destroy this dictatorship; and promulgate standards of conduct which We the People shall exceed when we wage lawful, non-violent opposition to this dictatorship;
We the People may devise any lawful scheme, ruse, strategy to lawfully, non-violently destroy, contain, and punish this dictatorship.
This US government has impermissibly supported this dictatorship. WE the People may lawfully use non-violent means to contain what is not permissible: Domestic threats to Our Will and The Supreme Law. This dictatorship has chosen impermissibly to defy the wrong citizenry: We the People. It shall lose. It has no hope. We outnumber them, and can use our expansive powers to non-violently, but lawfully destroy this dictatorship.
We the People have the power to declare this President an outlaw, and lawfully gather evidence to prosecute him outside Congress, outside Impeachment.
Only the States are denied the power and right to associate with foreign powers to defend this Constitution; but We the People are not prohibited form broadly asserting powers which shall use all lawful options to defend this US Constitution against these enemies in Congress, in the Executive Branch, and in this US government.
We the People retain the inherent power, right, and authority, to deceive dictators; but we have the legal obligation to follow the laws, and treat the US government as if it is were the legal authority. We do not have to recognize a dictatorship; but we can pretend that the dictatorship is one that going to survive. No, it is doomed to fail.
They wished this.
Force the Senate to endure the House filibuster: The House Managers' filibuster on the Senate floor. There is a method to bypass the House Judiciary: Even if Conyers does not agree, a State Proclamation calling for impeachment requires a floor vote to start the review, and it cannot be buried in committee.
This is not correct, given the [ House Rule 603 ] permitting a state proclamation for impeachment:
Paul in LA @ 134:
Whether the Senate votes to convince is meaningless: Impeachment is a power of the House. If it is a "meaningless" thing, why is the GOP opposed to it? One answer: Impeachment denies the President pardon-promises.
As to the claim that the Judiciary Committee can "block" an impeachment: Non-sense. The Precedent of Judge Swayne's impeachment establishes that even when the Committee cannot agree on what happened, the States retain the power and right to require the House to vote -- outside the Committee -- whether it will or will not impeach, investigate, or review. The proclamation must be dealt with.
The House Judiciary does not have the lawful power to not use all legal options to defend the Constitution. That defies their oath.
If anyone would like to read more about this, I encourage you to read House Rule 603: There is a way to bypass the House Judiciary Committee: The State Proclamation would require a floor vote, could not be hidden in committee. Even if the Judiciary Could not agree, they would still have to report to the House Floor the results of their investigation.
House Rule 603, in effect, makes Conyers irrelevant.
Whether the Senate agrees or disagrees is meaningless: The GOP Senators need to be forced to face the voters in 2008 on the basis of their vote on the President's illegal activity. That they "might" not support removal is speculative. Let's find out, force them on the records, and then let the voters see whether they will enforce the law, or defy their oath. If 'enforcing the law" is a "waste of time" then America's legal foundations -- the rule of law -- are a "waste of time". That is not permissible.
Time needs to be spent to put the Constitution on the table. Impeachment will give the House control over the Senate -- where they can compel the Senators to be silent; and the senators cannot filibuster; and the senators shall silently sit, while the House managers filibuster the senate on the topic of the day: This President's and Vice President's war crimes, illegal activity,a and others things which the US legal community and Congress have been complicity.
Impeachment gives the House the power to filibuster the Senate; and the Senate can say nothing until the House managers choose to end their filibuster. That is on the table. Support House Rule 603. Get your state legislators to support what the Congress reuses: This Constitution through a State proclamation calling for impeachment.
Jack Damage, this situation is like attempting a tally of how many snakes are writhing in a bag using simple math.
Same as you, this outrageous crazymaking situation is screaming for a solution we see as an obvious one.
What Paul LA is saying is that the solution requires a formula and not simple math. Rather like diffusing a bomb that will go off if not carefully dismantled in a backwards-seeming way.
I've not until the last few days been able to reconcile my appreciation of Pelosi's political savvy which has been obscured by not understanding what is really going on.
I appreciate that because the image we have generally is grotesque and monstrously frightening, when what appears to any of us to be common sense doesn't seem to apply anymore. Helplessness=depression.
I feel less of that and a bit more patience that perhaps both sides haven't completely rounded the bend, and may contain a nugget of good sense.
Barbara Boxer: "Impeachment should be on the table"
[...]"Yeah. I mean, you left out a bunch of things ? spying on citizens without a warrant, going around FISA, on and on. Look, I have always said it should be on the table."[...]
I agree with her that Impeachment should be on the table, but that's as far as I go.
I believe it shouldn't just be on the table, but that we should be actively SEEKING it. Impeachment proceedings keep getting buried before they even reach Congress...why? And why are we not looking into this further?
She's also advocating we "do something about Global Warming." I have the solution.
Stop talking about it.
We are not responsible, it's a natural phenomenon...just like El Nino, just like the fact that you can have a sunny, wonderful day that turns into a thunderstorm in a matter of hours. It's NORMAL. Get over it.
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