Back to stifling dissent
Over the past couple of months, most of the rhetoric from top Bush administration officials about the public debate over Iraq has been fairly encouraging. Sure, far-right activists have said dissent is treasonous. And sure, in February, when lawmakers were passing a non-binding resolution criticizing the escalation strategy, Tony Snow went so far as to suggest that the debate itself brought “comfort” to terrorists. But in practical terms, senior administration officials have made clear how wrong this is.
Defense Secretary Robert Gates said in April that demands in Congress for a timeline to withdraw are good for Iraq because they exert pressure on Iraq’s leaders. Condoleezza Rice used congressional debate the same way.
And yet, some shamelessly demagogic talking points apparently die hard.
The Pentagon told Democratic presidential front-runner Hillary Rodham Clinton that her questions about how the U.S. plans to eventually withdraw from Iraq boosts enemy propaganda.
In a stinging rebuke to a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Undersecretary of Defense Eric Edelman [said], “Premature and public discussion of the withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq reinforces enemy propaganda that the United States will abandon its allies in Iraq, much as we are perceived to have done in Vietnam, Lebanon and Somalia."
Got that? Even discussing withdrawal helps the enemy.
Amanda helped explain how wrong Edelman, a former Cheney aide, is.
I have a weird hope that these buttheads will be driven from at least making public statements. Their stupidity is beginning to show through their fear tactics. No one is going to believe this latest POS.
Allies in Iraq? What allies?
Only those who are insecure in their hold on power would fear dissent.
Those in power have been wrong about the war (Busholini's folly) every god damned step of the way. They have NO credibility.
Except, apparently with our "MSM" -- those libruls!
Who is the enemy, again?
How is discussing withdrawal helping them?
Just heard a bit ago that this guy, Edelman, used to work for Karl Rove. Figures, doesn't it?
Sounds to me like somebody is scared shitless of Hillary Clinton so they even let the pentagon attack her. Not a good move on their part.
Edelman is correct in that it does give some comfort to the enemy (every time a Republican comes out against the war, does it make libs feel better? Sure.).
However, Edelman is very wrong to try to squelch any discussion about it. Democracy requires that people be able to explore possibilities in a public forum. Saying that any idea that may give comfort to the enemy cannot be discussed in public is about as antithetical to democracy and freedom as anything could be. After all, should we keep on doing the wrong thing because doing the right thing would make the enemy feel better? Of course not.
These neo-cons are "cut off your nose to spite your face" people...
It is the coward who lacks the conviction of their own beliefs who most fears dissent.
Wow, C&L is slooooooooow. This was yesterday's news.
Countdown even did a segment.......come to think about it, C&L posted his Special Comment.
Soooo, what the hell?
Jo @ 2:
Exactly! The coalition of the willing was a myth this administration used to show they had support. It was false propaganda. Almost everyone except the UK is gone already or their commitment from the start was on the condition of "no battle". They were there for reconstruction and other small jobs ONLY. Besides that, wouldn't you think these "allies", would hear we are leaving, and leave too?
That's their answer to everything. Unless you repeat their talking points you are aiding the enemy. Can't declassify something because it would give away our secrets and aid the enemy. From what I can gather the enemy is doing pretty well at this enemy-izing without anyone's help.
Apparently, the Hillary camp is overjoyed with these developments. Spokespersons for Hillary are calling it 'political manna from heaven'.
And I'm sure Hillary hates early withdrawals.
When I heard about this yesterday I couldn't believe it. Why would anyone send such an answer to hc? You have to know that she is going to make a big issue of it. Then I read this article at huffingtonpost and it makes some sense -
What Would Machiavelli Do? The Attack On Hillary
Erich Endelman sounds like the perfect name for a unterfuhrer.
Or a Butt Mesch.
Actually, I think Bush knows best on this. Withdrawing from Afghanistan sure helped Al Qaida (sp?).
Discussing impeachment helps America. Demanding withdrawal from Iraq helps everybody. Calling a Nazi a Nazi is the least we can do. We need to go well beyond the least we can do and call the Nazis exactly what they are. We need to put the world on notice that America will not tolerate totalitarianism and yank Bush off of his imagined thrown and throw him in front of the international court for commiting war crimes, our courts for treason and stop appoligizing for standing up for what is right.
Aiding and abbetting the enemy? Bush made up an enemy in Iraq and now civilians are being slaughtered everyday. Since when is supporting that supposed to be patriotic?
TheToonGuy @ 3:
When even one American – who has done nothing wrong – is forced by fear to shut his mind and close his mouth – then all Americans are in peril.
--- Harry Truman
Butt Mench.
Back to flippin' off those who merely ask questions about the war. Or better yet, just pin the blame on those of us who don't believe in this war. As KO said last night, as long as Bush & Co. can find a scapegoat, it isn't THEIR fault.
Bunch o' bureaucratic bullshit to me.
The Champ is out.
oh, bushit has given himself yet another illegal tool to stop disent.
he will put a freeze and hold if not just downright steal all your funds in you bank and other financial holdings.
this is just one of the many things hitler used to smash disent in germany.
bush/cheney/rove need to be impeached and now. start with cheney a full blown asshole.
Hilary wrote a letter asking about an exit strategy. Is
al qaeda reading their mail? Where is the letter to the few republicans who are also asking the question? As far as most people are concerned Hilary is about the least anti war candidate out there. They must be very afraid.
It's this type of typical White House stupidity and fear monguering over and over and over that the vast majority of Americans just don't buy it anymore and tune it out altogether.
Lookey here! Guess who's a Joe McCarthy fan! Ann Coulter!
"In an interview with David Bowman, Coulter said that Senator Joseph McCarthy is the deceased person she admires the most."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason:_Liberal_Treachery_from_the_Cold_Wa...
Anybody predict a really good Democratic whooping in 2008?? I do.
Janet @ 22:
They are very afraid - that's why they're trying to take down the leading Democratic candidate for President.
The GOP associates "whistleblowers" with terrorists...ala JOE MCCARTHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TERRORISM WAS THE BEST THING THAT HAPPENED TO THE GOP, AND THEY ARE PRAYING FOR ANOTHER 9/11!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/House_Republican_takes_aim_at_CIA_0720.html
Big Dan @ 24:
Really? She didn't say she would admire some liberals if she could make them dead?
Disent no party. Disent no disco. Disent no foolin' around!
Dale, i think you are talkin' dread. :)
16 Dale Says:
"Actually, I think Bush knows best on this. Withdrawing from Afghanistan sure helped Al Qaida (sp?)."
you are an idiot. bush did not withdraw from afghanistan, he just lied and pulled troops into the illegal madeup war in iraq. get your history right. it's fools like you who keep the lies going. if you can't read, then ask someone to help you.
Planning is not propaganda. Being prepared for something does not embolden the enemy.
As the Bush crime family and their pathetic camp-followers sink slowly into their twin Middle East quagmires, they still manage to let out an occasional little squeal about it being Clinton's fault, the corporate media's fault or whatever...
Those sllippery little Bushies, just slime and smear and smirk and point their pasty white fat little fingers... Eventually the American people are going to get a little tired of their act, and then the Big Hook will come from Stage Right and they will be whisked away. The remains of the Grand Old Party (GOP) will be scattered to the four winds and will go the way of the late Whig Party of the 1840s and 1850s...
Now they say that Gore forced Bush to steal the 2000 Presidential Election; that Clinton forced Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld and the FAA bigwigs to let nine-eleven attacks happen... on and on, forever or until Impeachment doth part them from us.
Swashbuckler @ 26:
They're going down on Hillary?
dadams @ 31:
So I'm an idiot, I can't read and I can't get my history right. Which qualifies me to be president of this country. Oh, but I'm an atheist, which disqualifies me from being president of this country.
Take it easy, dadams. You're gonna break your keyboard.
According to the latest exec order, Pres. Bush may be in trouble of his own making. If "destabilizing" Iraq, or making statements or taking actions that could hurt Iraqi stabilization efforts, all your assets could be seized and you {he} could be held as "enemy combatants". Also, Hillary could be removed from the race if her statements or actions are deemed harmful. EGADS!!!!!
Who gives a rat's ass what our "enemies" say once we leave that hell hole. Oh my! Listen to what they're saying about us now that we deserted our allies (?) in Iraq! What matters is that our folks are being blown up and burned to death daily. And...we are making the situation worse by our very presence. For every innocent life we take (can't be helped..cost of war don't you know..so sorry) we enable the radicalization of who knows how many fanatics. Fuck what anyone says. Our international image is shit-stained as it is thanks to that mad man POTUS. Let's not talk about leaving, let's SHOUT about leaving.
thank you dale says, your response says it all. my point made. thanks again.
"dale says" ?
America's past WORST presidents in US history.
1. James Buchanan
2. Andrew Johnson
3. Franklin Pierce
4. Warren G. Harding
5. William Henry Harrison
Of these, I'd say Andrew Johnson is the only one people would recognize because he was mentioned a lot when Clinton was going through his impeachment trial. The others... meh, I'd say, "not so much".
6. George W. Bush
He won't long be forgotten. His legacy will last for at least 5 decades. Future generations ie, the unborn, will continue to pay down his debt.
He won't be forgotten... but he will be dismissed. No statues will be erected in his name.
He will be deemed America's greatest enemy. He will be tried. He will be convicted.
I pray that the next president doesn't pull "a Ford" and pardon him. Let his actions and his legacy be a lesson for all politicians and all men/women who would be king.
dadams @ 38:
Your welcome, dadams. [deleted--keep it civil].
And Texan is back to stiffling heat.
Funny thing, Al Qaida doesn't allow dissent either. Nor did Saddam, or Iran, North Korea, China...
thanks dale says, i will do just that as soon as i remove your lips from the hole.
hey America, whats the deal with letting this son of a dumb cow lead your country? The idiot now is babbling some shit about "Executive Order" - What the hell is wrong with you Americans? Do something beneficial for the world and force feed this retard some anthrax or something.
worst flame war ever: dadams v dale.
sheesh!
40 Targa Says:
6. George W. Bush
He won't long be forgotten. His legacy will last for at least 5 decades. Future generations ie, the unborn, will continue to pay down his debt.
He won't be forgotten... but he will be dismissed. No statues will be erected in his name...
How about statues of his erection?
Oh wait, that's Clinton.
still running the old Goebbels PR strategery, I see. Well it's worked so well on the 28%ers-it's that remaining 72% they need to
trickconvince.Dale @ 41:
He started the name calling.
[When are you going bring up the ugly "I'm rubber, you're glue" incident? Sitemonitor]
Dale @ 49:
hey eveyone, i apologize to all of you except dale says,
i should have just stopped at the 2nd response.
We're seeing the new strategy take shape before our very eyes: blame Hillary often as possible for losing the war.
Forget it dadama says. So says seevee says.
I mean "dadams" says.
what we are seeing it the some tactics the gop and the adminstration has used from the beginning.
use someone as a scapegoat, smear and then change the subject.
they have not changed. problem is kerry did not fight back hard enough or we might not have been in this mess. hillary on the other hand is fighting back. good for her.
Well, I apologize to dadams for the sand comment.
I'm not an idiot, as you said. I am well aware of the things that this administration has done to deceive this and many other countries. Perhaps I don't have the facts exactly as they are. I doubt any of us will ever know all of the facts. So you, dadams, are probably wrong, too.
But you're not an idiot because of it.
I'm curious, if a Dem wins in 2008 and uses these methods that boosh is providing precedent for, would the Dem be accused of fascism; and, if the Dem doesn't use all tools available to win, would the Dem be accused of being spineless?
boosh thinks he precedent.
dadams @ 55:
Yes, Kerry placed too much hope on nuance.
dadams and dale... you guys aren't idiots. You have opinions. Great. State them.
George Bush on the other hand..... now that right there is an idiot.... and he's dangerous with his power grabbin', money grubbin', daddy bailin' outin', sorry ass excuse for a politician that is doing the bidding for corporations in order to turn back the clock to the idyllic 1800s so that they can eliminate the middle class. (breath)...
and you dales says are probably right in your remarks in #56.
good for you, we all see things from our own perspective, so we both can be right and wrong.
Dale @ 49:
Or even "I'm Trojan, you're Rough Rider" argument?
ysbaddaden @ 61:
Or, "I'm not touching you.... I'm not touching you"... etc, ad infinitum. :)
dadams @ 60:
Now this is how diplomacy should work.
Targa @ 62:
I'm so over this argument.
Dale @ 64:
You didn't forget to roll eyes did you? Whatever.
The Pentagon told Democratic presidential front-runner Hillary Rodham Clinton that her questions about how the U.S. plans to eventually withdraw from Iraq boosts enemy propaganda.
Well, one can forgive the enemy for assuming that we are never leaving.
Of course! The bottom line is the NeoCons want the middle-east. They will do anything they have to, to see that the U.S. is mired so deeply into that quagmire it will take the second coming itself to get us out. If you have presidential candidates running around and promising withdrawal that is just making it harder. Never mind the fact the Iraqi population hates us and wants us out. The WarPigs will probably attack Iran before their term is out. Cheney will probably do it while Bush is sedated and getting his butt probed. (insert anal jokes here. i would but then i'll be here all night) Besides, how can you run the world if you don't have control of a major portion of the petroleum reserves?
Dale @ 29:
lolz @ life during wartime reference.
Edelmen doesn't want people to talk about getting out of Iraq?
Fine,fine fine, whatever!!! I don't want to talk about that anyway.. I want to talk and see serious political players talking about getting Bush and Cheney out of power...permanently! Any good regarding Iraq, will flow directly from that...JD
[...] House Link to Article iraq Back to stifling dissent » Posted at Crooks and Liars on Friday, July 20, [...]
It seems to me that Mr Bush AIDED UBL to evade capture by removing the troops from Afghanistan to Iraq. And it was another AID to him when he shut down the unit tasked with finding him. And I'm sure it was a great COMFORT to UBL to know he wasn't being pursued by the US with any zeal. Even though Bush alleged confessed to Tony Blair that he wished to sodomize UBL.
And what can be said about a "man" who has been responsible for AIDING AQ to reach its pre-9/11 size? And I'm sure that all of the arms that have gone missing have helped to kill an American or two. And the lack of armor and other adequate equipment has, too. And I wonder if anyone has died due to excessive stress and burnout from so much duty with so little time off. It seems to me that the NeoCons have done the most to give AID to the enemy and they are probably pretty COMFORTable with the NeoCon's rule.
E Pleb Neesta
GODISNOWHERE
Blessed are the cheese makers.
If HPV vaccination, contraception and sex-ed promote promiscuity,
then surely confession promotes sin.
I have a question which no one seems not to be able to answer. Just how does bush and his henchmen know what the terrorist think, do and say ahead of time. Are they part of the movement.
HUH!!??? Well, I'll be damned.. I guess I wasn't posting to the thread I thought I was posting too above.... I take it back sitefolks.... my bad... Too many similar threads I guess... sorry.
JD
Who was it again that determined conservative ideology to be holy writ, against which all dissent is heresy?
You can never start swiftboating the opposition fast or soon enough!
one would assume by shit-for-brains recent remarks and many of the press meetings that bush/cheney/rove are part of the al qaida and are enemy combattants themselves. how else would they always know what al qaida's plans are and how prepared al qaida is to attack us on usa soil. if they have this much information, then they definitely know where they are.
bush/cheney the bastards are aiding and abetting the terrorists and should be impeached and then turned over to the world courts for all their crimes against mankind.
I think it is time to fully embrace the patriotism factor.
Is it patriotic to represent Iraq as a national security threat with knowledge that such was not the fact, with the result that the war on terror was shifted from Afghanistan to Iraq and resulted in the needless deaths of over 3500 troops, and the squander of over $400B, with the final tally expected to exceed $1 trillion? Does such a misrepresentation amount to treasonable like conduct?
The results is that Al-quada has recouped and Musharraf is teeter-tottering in Pakistan. We left the Taliban intact on the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan for 3 years while we conducted this escapade in Iraq, and now we face the risk of the leadership of Pakistan changing to more radical elements. I note that Pakistan has the bomb and missiles to deliver it. Because we cut and run from Afghanistan, Musharraf wound up having to negotiate a treaty with the Taliban. We never should have left any Taliban to negotiate a treaty with. Now radical fundamentalists associated with the Taliban are undermining Musharraf.
The Afghanistan-Pakistan matter was a U.S. national security matter. After all, it was Al-quaeda, located in Afghanistan that perpetrated 911. Saddam, and his financing of Palestinian suicide bombers was an Israel national security matter. We should have gotten out of that on the cheap, perhaps by letting Saddam know that for every suicide bomber, a Presidential palace would be destroyed. We never should have ignored U.S. national security concerns that were subverted by this Middle East makeover escapade. As far as the oil is concerned, the U.S. needs to start using less.
So, I think we need to get this patriotism issue out, front and center.
Then, there is the complete nincompoop factor of which a discussion would take up too much space.
Tony Snow talks about brining "comfort to the enemy", thats a good one. Lets see, we have a coke snorting, dry alchy, bible thumping moron that has NEVER succeeded at ANYTHING he has attempted in his entire life, leading the country in an illegal and immoral genocidal adventure. Based on past performance, the folks over there have to figure he WILL fuck this up too. It may be bloody and painfull, but George will fail, always has, always will. So, who is realy bringing comfort to the enemy? The folks who say lets leave now, or the folks who say stay the course even though the course is doomed to failure?
Militarily speaking it is incredibly incompetent to NOT have a withdrawal plan!! But then again it is militarily incompetent to not have a number of plan "B"s from the beginning too. Actually it is militarily incompetent to launch illegal wars of aggression in the first place. Eric Edelman is obviously an America hating piece of shit!
I take issue with DoD Staffers complaining about a dialog about withdrawing. The DoD and OSD staffers well know that the discussions related to budget documents are routine, ongoing, and part of the normal budgeting review. HOwever, if the DoD staff has a "problem" with open discussion of Iraq withdrawal. the budget cuts could be made behind closed doors: All descriptive summaries could be zeroed out; OSD Staff could be denied input; and it would be the job of the GOP to pass Amendments.
If the OSD staff does not like the open discussion on Iraq, they are free to leave DC and let others "not talk" about the budget cuts: They'll just happen. How are you liking the markups of the descriptive summaries, OSD Staff? Those contracts are required to support OSD goals. When the OSD refuses to permit open discussion, there isn o basis to continue budget discussion. Until you discuss the budget, you get nothing.
What You Can Do
Call for the OSD Descriptive summaries to get zeroed out by the Congressional Staffers. Call your member of Congress and remind the OSD Staff that if they do not like open discussions of budgets, nothing is stopping them from leaving the US and work for a country that does not engage in public discussion: The Taliban -- The President reminds us the law isn't there to stop them.
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