AFL-CIO Democratic Forum: Digging down to China
By Logan Murphy Monday Aug 06, 2007 8:30pm
The most outstanding remarks early on in the forum came from Congressman Dennis Kucinich. The question was on China and whether they should be considered a friend or foe. Kucinich brought the house down with his comments, even the other candidates couldn't hold back. Take a look...
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Now, that's what a homerun looks like, kids.
Aw, second.
That was a good one.
Kucinich has done great today. Also, I am sooooo proud that the Democrats had this forum in front of real people with real issues and took their questions directly. They've done this at least twice with the Youtube debate and this forum. I'd like to see how repugs discuss healthcare and underfunded pensions.
That's why I'm supporting Kucinich, I don't care if no one thinks he can win.
nonbeliever @ 3:
Does it matter what they say? They just make shit up and their people eat it up.
I love Dennis Kucinich, sadly though, he is dismissed as a third tier contender/candidate.
Dennis Kucinich is the best hope our nation has.
ALSO he has won an issues poll, answer 24 questions & you will see who is your best candidate:
with 90,000 responses his stand on issues are the as 55% of Americans!
http://www.dehp.net/candidate/
It is interesting that the Democratic candidates are offering a future and a plan to make this country great again. While the Republicans just scare Americans and offer just fear. I love to hear the response the Republicans to the man who lost his health insurance when his company went bankrupt. This what real Americans are facing today, the Republicans have know clue ,and they do not care.
oh my goodness.
chris matthews is unyieldingly vacuous.
if you ask me....I think Kucunich did the best....I really liked Richardson's idea about all Vets getting health care anywhere,anytime....The Rest did very well...all in all..it was a good start...Edwards did well too.
Hillary stumbled badly, but Chris Matthews is acting as if she hit a homerun.
Their internal response, not the one they would ever actually verbally express, but their actual instinctive thought response, is that the person in question must be a failure and a loser, and its his own fault hes unemployed and his company shouldn't have been such a failure that it went bankrupt. Admitting anything else to themselves would force them to confront the idea that a free market economy is not the end-all be-all solution to all of the world's problems.
Thanks for featuring Kucinich C&L!
Kucinich is the only one I can listen to without cringing.
Liberal Journal @ 4:
You & me both!! From the moment I found out who he was, what he stood for and what he has done... he's been the candidate for me!
Jay_M @ 7:
Unfortunately he is only popular among the internet population and we do not yet outnumber the typical American moron.
Cythraul @ 13:
That is the response all the talking heads on the right give , that the guy was a failure, and he made bad decision. They really do not care about real Americans. But the Republicans will never take questions from regular people like those at this debate. If they did they show their true colors, they do not care about real Americans.
actually, Markos of dailykos.com is another moron who loves to mock kucinich
crazy train @ 6:
What gets me is that he has been dismissed by liberal blogs such as the Huffington Post.
I don't understand it.
I'm encouraged by C&L posting this Kucinich moment.
Maybe it will change things.
I voted for him in 04', and it looks like I'll vote for him again this time around.
LOVE IT!
Damn Dennis!
I lived in the same near westside neighborhood as Dennis Kucinich. I believe he is 1 or 2 years older than me. I am backing him 1005 win or lose. He is the workingmans best hope. I will donate to his campaign again this year and I hope a bunch of c&l Bloggers can do the same.
I rarely gave Kucinich a 2nd thought before tonight...boy has that changed!!! I AM GOING TO VOTE KUCINICH DOWN THE LINE BABY!!!
Markos of dailykos.com is another moron who loves to mock kucinich
---------
see i never read this morons blog! and thats probably why some ppl do not know of dennis.
shame. the mans cutting off his nose to spite his face. Markos who?
AnnCoultersMoustache @ 5:
It'd be fun to watch them try to answer a real issue with a typical conservative idiot response before an audience as lively as this one. They'd get booed off the stage.
Railden @ 18:
That's because everyone knows by the Media reporting that the only two candidates that WILL win anything are Hillary and Obama. Nobody else matters if they don't receive the nomination, and regardless what the "grassroots" thinks, the one with the most media attention/money wins. I know it sounds like a conspiracy theory, but it is true. Been there, seen that. Many, many times. The best candidate and most popular rarely wins.
vivek, the tool shed called, your missing!
mudshark @ 10:
IIRC, Richardson is also a Vietnam vet. I never hear anyone mention that. It is a great selling point when compared to whomever gets the RNC nomination.
Kucinich and Paul speaking the TRUTH to those who only think they are powerful. YEWEH BLESS AMERICA.
Unfortunately, these two would be lucky to win the 'local dog catcher' race but, being from Ohio and Texas respectively, allows for good government to surface somewhere in this God forsaken country.
NChom, follow the money...
Too bad it has already been decreed that Dennis is not a serious candidate.
Kucinich/Paul 2008
Isome @ 14:
Dennis always does this- the guy is a trouper and is right on the money for every issue that A Real Democrat SHOULD.
Gotta love him. If only he were electable. But, we don't have a real democracy, so we can only elect people who the big corps control.
Kucinich and Paul should share the Independent Ticket
bones @ 29:
Exactly, but it sure is frustrating when people still back the party and talk like they have any influence whatsoever. Like I said, you get to vote for people CHOSEN for you to vote for. You don't have a choice. Not sure how people consider that democracy.
http://kucinich.house.gov/Biography/
Dave @ 31:
Get a clue. Ron Paul is a deadbeat. He's the furtherest thing from Kucinich that anyone could even imagine. Kucinich wants the government to work for people. Paul wants to get rid of the government all together.
Dirty Hippie Blogger @ 28:
The problem with that statement is that one of 'em- not Kucinich- only tells half-truths. The more ya dig into the other guy's message, the more ya uncover the similarities to Ayn Rand.
kaT-
"furtherest".
I like it! :)
Dennis is the Menace to Republican free-trade spin
Eric & Dave-
Stop it! Stop it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYDwvS9nPCk
kaT @ 37:
Thank you!! Paul is right about the war but I disagree with him just about everything else. No way that libertarian gets my vote.
If Hillary win the Dems Nomination They will Lose Horribly. That is why Tweety is pushing for her so hard.
Kucinich has been making alot of progress lately. However he scares the shit out of the establishment and they will try very hard to bury him. I hope they fail.
You know what I REALLY wish Crooks and Liars would do when they have these video posts...
I Really wish they would post a written version for those of us that still have dialup and an old dilapidated computer because we cannot afford (thank you Bush) anything else.
What the hell did he say?
It would take longer to download the video than it would take for me to grow another gray hair! Inquiring minds want to know...
Andy K @ 41:
you called it yesterday Andy...the trolls for he who has no name are coming out in abundance......ya know...he who has no name is going after all the fleeing repub votes,those who have left and those who are going to leave.The repug base has to try something to pull votes away from the left....all my freinds who are repub say they are definitly not voting repug this time around.......that must scare the holy living ..... out of them.
Thanks C&L for posting this. As is evident by the posts above, most true liberals now know that Kucinich is the only real hope for change this country has. He is also the only card-carrying union member on that stage. If anyone would like to support Kucinich further, please visit The 35 Percenters and subscribe to our channel on YouTube. If Crooks and Liars continues to inform the blogosphere about Kucinich and if The 35 Percents are able to bring that same kind of awareness to the YouTube community, then the guy just might stand a chance. We need to do all we can to counter the efforts of the mainstream media to edge true progress out of the public discourse.
No one but Kucinich in '08
Dennis Kucinich was great as Obama. I am a little taken off that MSNBC give it all to Hillary? As an independent I cannot vote for a party, I do not worry about that because we did throw all the repubs out.
Today in Democracy now was great.
“Freedom Next Time: Filmmaker & Journalist John Pilger on Propaganda, the Press, Censorship and Resisting the American Empire.”
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/08/07/130258
Don’t miss it I did taped it.
Way to go Dennis, that was awesome. With that he just won my vote in the primaries.
Railden @ 18:
I hear that. On DK he is trashed repeatedly. I don't base my decision on anything from any blog, but reading said blogs does give you a different perspective. In the end though, we should do what we believe is right.
Bryan @ 44:
Quite often there is a transcript attached. But when time is of the essence(and Logan got this one posted pretty quickly), the transcript goes out the window.
I bet if ya write to C&L and say really nice things about the Yankees, Amato can get the post updated to include a transcript.
kaT,
What is so wrong with (as you put it) "get rid of the government all together."?
I guess I'm dating myself because I remember my mothers serving spoon being put to use in the backyard. Yep I was digging a hole to China. Figuratively. (sp)
Now it is literally.
You may not think Kucinich has a chance in a general election (actually, I think you could run a wet sock against any Republican in '08 and win) but voting for him in the primaries is a great way to send a message to the Democratic party.
It's a wonder more of the D's don't bash China. Let's see...Communist regime.....poisoning our pets....putting lead paint in our kids toys.....making freaking Wal-mart verrrrry rich....sounds like a no-brainer to me.
I volunteered for him last time, and I'll do it again this time. Kucinich would make the best candidate-- and he is, in my humble opinion, the best candidate for the Democratic base to support during the primaries. Even if you don't think he can win the primaries, strong support for Kucinich provides and excellent point from which to haggle.
Don't accept a DLC stooge in the primary season, just because the beltway nitwits tell you they're "electable". That's like walking into an auto dealership and paying the sticker price.
Edwards isn't too bad, either. :)
That was absolutely brilliant. Guess my mommy was right... looks like we actually did dig a hole to China.
AndyK,
Who really cares what Kucinich or Paul say? The issue is that they get a forum to speak the things that some may consider to be 'a bit uncomfortable to discuss' for those who 'don't want to hear it'.
Right now, as I write, FOX' Hannity is trashing Paul.
Uncomfortable Yes. Priceless No.
pookers @ 52:
Don't feel bad pookers....I tried too..........never did get any deeper than 3 or 4 feet though......and sadly yes we have literally hit China.......
This was the first time I actually sat down and watched one of the debates (Mainly due to the fact that Keith was hosting/moderating) and I have to say that Kucinich really impressed me. Mainly due to the fact that he answered many questions with out a lot of the waffling that some others seemed to do. At least three time that I can recall, he gave a straight up answer. One of those straight up answers was on the WTO/NAFTA and if it should be scrapped. It refreshing to see a candidate answer a question straight up and not muddy the waters with political crap. Both the wife and I are now supporters of his after this debate.
Remember, even if you don't think he can wain against some of the others on stage (or not on that stage) you do your self a disfavor and our country a disfavor by not supporting the candidate you think that is the best for our country. This is not a case of wasting your vote. Once of those candidates will be the democratic nominee and more then likely, another will be the VP. Let's worry for now about who we want to represent, not who is more likely to win, because from what I've seen so far, America will win with any of them as our president.
Dirty Hippie Blogger @ 51:
You really want corporations and wealthy oligarchs running everything unimpeded by the collective democratic will of the people? Think about it. Privatized police forces and infrastructure, privatized fire departments that will let your house burn down because you haven't paid their fees, gated communities, workers treated as slaves with no rights? That's the world Libertarians have to offer. We're close enough to that already.
Snowball @ 53:
Ya Know...yesterday I said I didn't think he could win.But...If he keeps this up.....he could.He definitly must of come up in the polls.....he might stand a chance now.
mudshark @ 45:
Muddy-
Go back to this post yesterday and check out the anti-Dem comments:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/08/06/the-sell-out-democrats/
Not sayin' they were his supporters, but there was some ugliness aimed at Paul in LA . He more than held his own, imo.
In fact, Paul in LA, if yer lurkin' tonight, I wantchya to know that although we've had our differences I've never had anything but the utmost respect fer ya. And the way ya fended off those sucks(specially the one who reads like a cross between Mao's Little Red Book and a Hallmark greetin' card who I will refer to as Learin' Goof) blew me away!
If C&L awards it's own an equivalent to the Congressional Medal of Honor, Paul in LA deserves it!
NChomsky @ 25:
I agree, the best candidate rarely wins !
casper46 @ 54:
don't forget all those really great tires that millions of people are driving on now......makes me wonder about the guy next to me on the road.
NChomsky @ 25:
Clinton or Obama would not be inevitable if the internet progressive community would start focusing on issues and
who would be the best to solve them. At this point Kucinich is by far the most coherent candidate. Hopefully progressive
blogs will begin to discuss him and his ideas. Why should "liberals" be talking about Clinton and Obama going "toe to toe"?
Let that be the fodder of Murdoch. Real discussions could bring votes to Kucinich - and he deserves them.
If we had a real movement of ideas, all of Clinton and Obama's money wouldn't matter.
Dirty Hippie Blogger @ 51:
What's that? I'm callin' from the government-free future and I can't hear ya over the sounds of the collapsin' infrastructure!
Love it!
Had only Richardson jumped in with "Eh, should have gone left at Albuquerque."
Just got home from work and currently watching Gingrich on C-Span2 actually making quite a bit of sense , but I'm curious, though not enough to watch, what are KO and Tweety saying about this? Have they actually given Kucinich some love? Or is it the usual bullshit about haircuts and blouses?
Agent Orange @ 67:
Thhhay, thith ithn't Pithmo Beach!
Agent Orange @ 67:
I thought it was 'Alba-coy-key'
Was that Keith Olbermann at the end? His hair is fantastic!
mudshark @ 64:
There's a lot of things very bad coming out of there. Sweat shops ,slave labor,etc.And this is our #1 trading partner????? WTF? How in the hell did this happen? I guess people in this country have been sufficiently dumbed downed. Thanks NCLB.
miss_kitty @ 69:
It's actually ,"Hmm, I must've taken a wrong toin at Albakoikee."
HAVE PITY FOR THOSE OF US ON DIAL-UP! Provide a quote or somethin' . . . . .
AndyK- well played sir
miss kitty- nailed the accent, nicely done
me-"Just got home from work and currently watching Gingrich on C-Span2 actually making quite a bit of sense"
...see I go and say something nice about him then the tells me he is going to be speaking for the AEI...son of a bitch...and he was speaking so well about our current election process and the msm's coverage of it...sigh...
Liberal Journal @ 4:
Right with you. My wife and I have been Kucinich supporters since the last election and we met him earlier this year at a meeting at a little coffee shop in New Hampshire. I sat next to him and was able to glean the genuineness of this man. What I want to hear from someone, anyone, who doesn't like Mr. Kucinich, to tell me of the ethical and moral problems that they have with this man. Or proof of a lack of integrity. The reason some don't like him is not because of anything in his past that he has done it's what he can do, given the opportunity, to make this a much better country and they and their personal welfare are worried by that.
kaT @ 37:
Amen!
Agent Orange @ 67:
They gave him a lot of love in the first five minutes. No one mentioned him after that however. Pat Buchanan was saying more good things than Tweety, interestingly enough. KO never mentioned him.
lets face it... the Unions are dead. The dems should have the courage to say that manufacturing jobs are gone and they are not coming back. They have gone to Mexico, China, Vietnam, etc... no one has the power to bring them back!!!
casper46 @ 71:
FYI, #1 trade partner is Canada.
pookers @ 52:
If you keep dating yourself you will grow hair on your palms and go blind.
The man with the least publicity as a presidential candidate is actually the wisest and most sensible. Dennis Kucinich is clearly a breath of fresh air. Exceptionally courageous and different from the rest of these candidates. He has actually done what he says he will do and has been right about the war all along. HE DESERVES respect for standing up for AMERICA when all the others where complicit to the BUSH CRIMES.
To those who say Kucinich and Paul are quite different, you're right. I'm behind Ron Paul, but I do respect Kucinich. As for the thoughts of a Paul/Kucinich ticket... no. Again. Too different. Paul vs Kucinich for the 2008 elections is something I'd love to see. Naturally, there are people in here who don't care for Paul and that's fine. It's not like one cares about the people and the other doesn't. They both do, but in their own way and it's up to us voters to decide which way we most agree with. You can't get a more honest Republican than Ron Paul. Likewise, I don't think you can get a more honest Democrat than Kucinich (barring Gravel). I'm not following the Democrats as well, so I can stand to be wrong.
BTW, I'm sure I've said it before, but to remind: I'm a Libertarian. In case you're wondering why I'm behind Paul.
Why is it that the only candidates who say what they really believe are considered lunatics?
It was absolutely the best line of the debate.
myiq2xu @ 84:
I could say it's because honesty is considered taboo in politics, but that's too easy. I'd like the answer of: it's not those candidates that are lunatics, it's those who call them that.
OSC @ 83:
Sincerest props fer lettin' people know where yer comin' from. Yer honesty is appreciated even if I think yer candidate's a loon.
What I can't stomach- and I think ya realize this- is when someone poses as a disaffected Dem who is suddenly a Paulist libertarian. That is loathsome, trollin' behavior.
OSC @ 86:
I have more respect for lunatics that speak their minds than "serious" candidates who only speak in carefully crafted, consultant-approved sound bytes.
Whose to say that the establishment candidates aren't saying what they really believe? They are, after all, well heeled economic elitists who are more terrified of the working middle class and poor getting our fair share of the pie than they are of anything else.
myiq2xu @ 84:
Because when push comes to shove, both parties will work together to push any candidate out that threatens the elite money makers in this country. If the people of this country really truly are fed up with the corporate power and their lobbyists dictating the message, then people must trust their instincts and defeat their own fears before even thinking of taking on Washington insiders.
myiq2xu @ 81:
LOL
Great line, great delivery Dennis!
...
This is what Bush and the GOP's China policy has produced... BLACKMAIL!
No wonder W is buying 10,000 acre ranches in Paraguay and Cheney has moved all of his investments into Euros!
Dennis was great tonight. He really knows how to talk to a labor crowd.
Andy K @ 69:
clam digging anyone?
Kick ass response by Kucinich!
Rasputin @ 93:
I haven't seen any of this.thanks for the info RAS...yikes..here it comes.....
mudshark @ 97:
And Halliburton is now an off-shore corporation
The Chinese have got us by our short and curlies.....I thought boosh was supposed to be a CEO type prez....and look he gets his golden parachute.while we get......trouble.Worst Prez ever...hands down.
Rasputin @ 93:
"You'll buy our poison toothpaste and you'll like it!"
mudshark @ 99:
He is a CEO president.
Just like Ken Lay and Dennis Kozlowski.
The AP labor reporter Jesse Holland wrote the article for AP, never once, not once even mentioning Kucinichs' name. I just emailed AP and Holland, and sent this clip to them. THE PRESS IS DECIDING WHO IS RUNNING FOR PRES. They joked about it in 2000, but they're actually doing it now. I urge all of you to write and complain, it's not bad enough they use Gravel and Kucinich as bookends, so the camera doesn't usually show them. This is making me furious.
And this guy is the "3rd tier" that Hillary and others want removed from the primaries? Cleveland represent!
[...] Clark Contact the Webmaster Link to Article dennis kucinich AFL-CIO Democratic Forum: Digging down to China » Posted at Crooks [...]
I am Canadian and I live in China with my Chinese wife. Talk of economic punishment against China scares me. First off, no one can doubt the economic hardship on Chinese people that would ensue. Yes, Americans (and Canadian) workers have suffered but that damage has already been done. Imagine millions workers losing their jobs in a matter of months not years - with absolutely no social safety net.
Chinese people save about 40% of the income (they are not a nation of debtors). They need this for retirement and medical since at best there is just a small government pension. Many have saving accounts in US dollars which have steadily dropped in value over the years. Some in the US are advocating a 15% increase in the value of the Yuan. What will that do to their savings?
Imagine those parents with US saving accounts and children working in the factories. The factories close, the value of their savings accounts plummet...I think we'll start hearing about the starving kids in China again.
And before all these millions people are pummelled by a change in US policy, it irks me that as far I can tell US policy encouraged the exportation of jobs to China. Since the US allowed this to happen all the while China said they weren't going to revalue their Yuan, well...the US knew what they were getting. So basically, the US will now publish the Chinese people for their own government policies.
Since I'm writing from China and have to be careful what I say this has been rather one-sided. But my point is, don't forget people will get hammered by a quick change in US policy. And there are alot of people here.
Dennis Kucinich vs Ron Paul in 08?
Bush Bites @ 101:
I can't see how anyone can argue about this one anymore...even the repug blogs are revolting about Preznit boosh.
He has my vote. Been that way for years.
Now we have to insist that he be given a chance.
Obama-Clinton-Edwards are all irrelevant to me.
Check out Kucinich's U.S. Department of Peace initiative, an attempt to create a cabinet level Department of Peace
http://www.thepeacealliance.org
why is it so many here who "love" Kucinich immediately dismiss him? how is that truly supporting him? he won my vote already and my financial support. if everyone stopped worrying about being in the "popular vote", we could get him in office. it's not about you. it's about us. and he's the only one who supports us. translate that to the U.S. if you will.
kaT @ 38:
Perhaps that duality can restore a healthy government where real issues are tackled and possibly resolved.
CanadianInChina @ 105:
US Policy was supposed to be to drop our trade barriers with China and they would reciprocate and drop theirs against American goods. That didn't happen, they have an upfront 25% tariff on our goods and their currency manipulation amounts to subsidization of all of their industries... So please stop the bullshit about its our own fault!
Further... they can dump 105 Billion a year into their military build up, build schools, hospitals, roads and infrastructure as well as military aide all over Africa and South America, but they allow their own people to struggle at subsistence levels and allow slave labor of children, some of whom are as young as eight years of age... and you claim that we are the author of their misery????
I worked in China and I've seen it with my own eyes. I've seen the cities and the disparity of wealth between the urban business types and the farmers in the provinces. They have my sympathy, the unequal distribution of wealth in China is appalling, but don't go laying that on America's doorstep. They did that all by themselves.
Dennis...you're awesome!
OKAY, now Kuchinich has my vote. And I like HIS hair too.
Dirty Hippie Blogger @ 51:
What do you want corporations to run our country more than they do. The trouble with government now is Corporations control it. Lockheed Martin, Halliburton, Eli Lilly, GM, Texas Instruments, Exxon-Mobil. Man they have got you completely confused. You are playing right into their hands. It was the Republicans who started the whole thing that government is bad. Yeah bad for them bad for them swindling more money. Now they have almost swallowed the government with K street lobbyists and their control of the media.
Our government was founded on the principle that it was a government of the people. Secondly it was founded on the principle that all people have inalienable rights bestowed only by the fact we are people. You want to give this up and privatize everything? You want to be subject to the whims of a corporate board who don't give a shit about you, other than the fact you are both a commodity and a consumer. You want to be a measurable wage unit that is replaceable, expendable, reformable, or undesirable or useful for the time being.
Dream on about your free market bubs. There aint no such animal. There are those with the money and those without. If you think you are so bright or industrious that you will be one of the haves that will benefit greatly by a libertarian social system you are dreaming or delusional. The odds are greatly against you.
Do you want to pay Acme Corp. for your water. Do you want to pay Solomann Brothers a toll everytime you use the interstate. Do you really want to eat tomatoes with a fish gene in them that...well makes them taste like fish. Do you want no regulation over toxins being dumped into our environment, do you really want to go to the store and buy produce grown in human feces and watered by water so polluted it makes the locals sick, and drenched in herbicides an insecticides. Do you want to work in a factory in which the air is not fit to breath. you have to work for whatever wage the company sees fit to pay you, and work as many hours they tell you to work.
Look at China where workers live 10 to 20 a room just to make ends meet. Look at Wal-Mart in Mexico where the baggers aren't even paid, they rely on tips to earn their money.
Who do you believe enforces labor laws, child labor laws, civil rights laws.
All you libertarians are worried about is your goddamn taxes. I would rather be taxed by an elected government than billed by a private corporation any day.
The whole idea about being progressive and egalitarian is to make sure that our goverment is spending our money on things that benefit people as a whole as opposed to giving it away to rich cronies as it is happening now.
You stupid fucks have completely bought into the wealthy elites arguments that government is bad. They hate government because in principle it represents the vast majority of people. It is something they are subject to as opposed to them running the show, and enslaving you.
You think you are so clever and liberatory, You're a bunch of yahoos who don't know your ass from a hole in the ground.
How do you suppose it happened that a person so singularly unqualified, so monumentally stupid, so brazenly arrogant and
Hey Dirty Hippie - fuckng brilliantly constructed essay. Channelling Thomas Paine.
P.S. Where's the rest of it?
K Jones @ 102:
what is Holland's email... I would love to set him straight.
Oooops, Credit to yeranalyst. Hey yeranalyst, fucking brilliantly ... etc.
How do you Libertarians suppose it happened that a person so singularly unqualified, so monumentally stupid, brazenly arrogant as George W. Bush came to power.
It was your so called free market economy that brought him to power. Those who had money wanted more money they wanted to place a stooge in government that they controlled.
Bush started his 2000 campaign with 86 million dollars. What? do you suppose he raised that money from individual small contributors that were so enthralled by his intellect and statesmanship that they just couldn't help themselves. No he was financed by a handfull of oil men who wanted quid pro quo.
If you desire an unregulated free market system if you don't want government intervention, if you don't want to pay taxes, if you believe private ownership is the metric in which all things should be measured then prepare yourself for more George Bushes or worse. Their will be no plurality to level the playing field. it will be oligarchical fascism running the show. Kiss your rights away. In truth the Constitution will become just a piece paper as George called it. The judiciary will be completely bought and paid for and the electoral field will be whoever Fox News says it is.
Yeranalyst...
Don't leave us hangin' finish your essay, good stuff! Have you met Private Freedom o this site yet? I look forward to the exchange!
Told ya.
Dennis Kucinich is the guy.
The rest are just wimpy flip-flop, vasilating, make it up as you go, just seeking a way to win false ideology politicians.
Dennis Kucinich KNOWS WTF to do.
Mugsy @ 20:
DITTO
For me there are only two candidates: Kucinich and the rest. He's the only one who really knows what's going on and speaks his mind.
I don't care what others say about him being a long shot, I'm voting for Kucinich.
[Deleted. Blogwhoring spam]
Obama lost me...gotta go with Dennis.
He's 3rd tier now..we have quite a ways to go. Don't excuse Kucinich just yet.
As for Ron Paul...I'm seeing tons of Ron Paul bumper stickers in Texas.
It was a good debate with some healthy battling.
nonbeliever @ 25:
Exactly. They'll have to put together a debate with a mock audience and that's the only way they could pull it off....911 , torture, gitmo, iraq, 911, torture, jack bauer, blah blah.
I loved Dennis' Sea Biscuit analogy.
.
He's also the ONLY candidate, currently serving in Office, that stands for responsible accountability of the current crime gang in office.
The others make promises about what they'll do for us tomorrow, but are they delivering what is needed today, especially in light of their records of yesterdays?
.
crazy train @ 6:
... and the reason he's considered a third tier contender is.... because people keep spreading the meme that he's not a serious contender. It's time Americans stopped treating the elections like a beauty pageant and started listening, and I mean really listening, to what the candidates are saying.
I've looked at Kucinichs platform and ideas and found a man who never forgot where he came from, and what poverty really feels like. If Americans are going to take their country back from the current aristocracy they need to stop buying into the Beltway wisdom (bulls**t) and back people with real vision and original ideas, instead of gladhanders and spinmeisters. Only other candidate I see as remotely genuine is Edwards. Every other candidate it telling us what can't be done, and why there screw-ups weren't screw-ups. I will never vote for a candidate who starts beating war-drums when we're already mired down in a never-ending bloodbath.
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I mean, how are they supporting and defending the Constitution of the USA that has been declared by them, recognizably, admittedly so as having been threatened and damaged by the actions of the current Administration. They've allowed to degrees, unconstitutional principles to usurp our Foundational Principles by NOT standing up for immediate accountability.
Impeachment's "off their radar" on on the People's table. H. Res. 333
For the candidates to argue against responsible accountability of the Bush Administration in favor of doing later, when their president makes me HAVE TO ASK:
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Snowball @ 61:
Snowball@61
"Corporations" are "legal fictions" that can't exist without the "Government" fiction. Both are really just people giving themselves labels so as to avoid personal responsibility.
Rid yourself of the so called "government" and you rid yourself of "legal". Without "legal" you have no "legal fictions".
Your cognitive dissonance isn't allowing you to see the value of a competitive free market. Fairly common since most have never been involved in a truly free market.
You will never have a free market as long as "government" violence exists to disrupt the markets. "Government" violence will always exist when "governments" exist because violence is "government's" only tool.
Andy K @ 67:
AndyK@67
You've got "collapsin infrastructure" now. Without "government" you have private ownership of all property, including "infrastructure". It doesn't make good business sense to allow the property that you own to get to the point of collapse.
I just wanted to post to give a hat tip to Dennis. I wish the legislative branch was full of people like him.
yeranalyst @ 115:
yeranalyst@115
The people behind the so called "corprations" don't run "countries". They bribe the people who call themselves "government". Rid yourself of "government" and you rid yourself of the bribery.
All "governments" are founded on the principle that superior people are to govern inferior people. You can't want to govern/control others unless you feel superior to them.
It makes absolutely no sense for a person or group of people to tell some "government" how they want to be governed/controlled and then have that "government" turn around and govern/control them the way that they told the "government" to govern/control them.
A truly free market provides consumers with what they want. Businesses can't afford it any other way. See comment 131 on "Corporations" and free markets.
Enforcing so called "laws" always involves violence. Indeed, "Rule of Law" could be called "Control by Violence".
I don't think that it's "wealthy elites" that hate the so called "government". I think that the people who hate "government" are the same people who hate liars, murderers, and thieves. Afterall, if you look at all of the complaints about "government" the bottom line complaining is about the lying, murdering, and thieving.
As I stated in a previous post. The people who call themselves "government" have only one tool in their toolbox. That tool is called violence.
Think about that next time you decide to vote. What you're voting for is violence. Everytime you hand over your property to those people who call themselves "government" your funding violence.
Good day.
Ed @ 135:
So because there's some criminals in government means that all government is run by criminals?
That's stereotyping, and it's not true. Laws are made by the people, just as governments are made by the people to serve the will of the people. Of course enforcing laws requires violence. The funny thing is that criminals don't like to stop committing crimes, so force is sometimes necessary.
I think that you think what you wrote follows logically, but it's really just a collection of loosely connected thoughts strung together in an ultimately meaningless fashion.
Good day to you, too.
I support Kucincich all the way. But you don't even have to be a Kucincich to be better than the criminal Bush/Cheney gang. Here is a reminder of the end of the Clinton Administration.
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/09/27/clinton.surplus/
"WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Clinton announced Wednesday that the federal budget surplus for fiscal year 2000 amounted to at least $230 billion, making it the largest in U.S. history and topping last year's record surplus of $122.7 billion.
"Eight years ago, our future was at risk," Clinton said Wednesday morning. "Economic growth was low, unemployment was high, interest rates were high, the federal debt had quadrupled in the previous 12 years. When Vice President Gore and I took office, the budget deficit was $290 billion, and it was projected this year the budget deficit would be $455 billion."
Instead, the president explained, the $5.7 trillion national debt has been reduced by $360 billion in the last three years -- $223 billion this year alone.
This represents, Clinton said, "the largest one-year debt reduction in the history of the United States."
The economy and the economic future was in good shape when Clinton left--let's not get into what could have been better.
Bush/Cheney/Neo-con greed and wars ended that. Tax cuts for the rich, why not?
I wonder what these liberetardians do when they get sick? I can't imagine that all of them are millionaires.
Ed @ 133:
Sorry - gotta take this on.
It makes perfectly good business sense to run property you own into the ground, as long as you walk away with the liquidated value. You see this all the time when CEOs who screw up the running of their companies get multi-million dollar kiss-offs because they negotiated it as part of their contract.
People who take pride in their property and the work they do are a dying breed.
As to China, BOYCOTT THE OLYMICS.
Ed @ 135:
First of all they don't call themselves government. They are the government. They are elected. The Corporations that are bribing them are criminals as those who are being bribed. How do you suppose those"free markets" are protected. Yes violence is the ultimate recourse of government as it is for any organization or group that is being preyed upon, or is predatory.
I would be glad to give up government if you would be willing to do the same with capitalism.
Capitalism is the ultimate predator. It is an economic system based upon creating wealth through surplus value. Surplus value is obtained through the exploitation of labor. It is by its very nature undemocratic. It exists to create a class society. There is no doubt that capitalism is a very efficient engine of wealth creation. Wealth only trickles down as the gap between the wealthy and the poor increases.
Wealth disenfranchises the poor and enslaves the working class.
Capitalism at the very least requires government independent from it to regulate its excesses, and to empower the disenfranchised. Capitalists hate government acting democratically because they don't want their excesses curbed. They don't like paying taxes because they have no allegiance to the greater society or the commonwealth. Capitalists hate the commonwealth because wealth loses its political potengy and the ability to bstow privilege if it is diluted over the society.
Markets don't regulate anything except prices. This is hardly the kind of regulation that capitalism requires.
Aside from all this the notion of free markets is ludicrous. When markets are cornered there is no more competition. Monopolistic control of the market occurs. Everyone is then susceptible to predatory pricing for that particular commodity.
I think people in the US have a very skewed idea of the predatory nature of capitalism. We have a middle class that is far wealthier than the great bulk of the worlds population. Our privileged middle class to large extent are living off the impoverishment of the rest of the world. In that sense our middle class is not really a true working class. It is more of an accomplice class. The middle class is very protective of the ruling class and doesn't like to even think of society in terms of class. Ever since the advent of strong labor unions the thrust of social perception has been to blur the distinctions between classes. Working class people prefer not to perceive of themselves as second rate citizens or declassé, they prefer to view themseves as upwardly mobile and potentially upper class.
Your notion that government is based on the idea that superior people govern inferior people is ludicrous. Our government in theory is based on the idea that the people choose qualified people to represent them in making decisions or laws.
It is the wealthy that have corrupted government and have made politicians beholden to them to be elected. The need to publicly finance campaigns and break up media monopolies has never been more acute than it is now.
Dennis Kucinich gives a person faith in real democracy and plain old good human sense. Makes me wish he was a Canadian, though America clearly needs him more than we do at this time.
bernarda @ 139:
I say, as to China -- boycott China, across the board.
Oh wait ... my board was even made there :-/
The population of AMERICA is approximately 300 million people.
IF EACH AMERICAN would contribute at least ONE DOLLAR to our choice of candidate that is $300 million dollars.
If you think Dennis Kucinich is deserves to lead and be our NEXT PRESIDENT. THEN donate at least ONE DOLLAR today to help him WIN. IT IS OUR ONLY CHANCE to WIN BACK OUR NATION from the RUN-A-MOCK government WE HAVE TODAY.
SwingJay @ 15:
My Dad, who is an 80 year old GOP'er took the quiz & Kucinich came up as the candidate who was most closely aligned with the issues he cared about.
He got about 35%, when I took it he got 65%.
He was still #1 for both of us.
I would send this poll to everyone I know. It does seem he is more in step with the population than any other candidate.
How he doesn't fair better in Dem polls is beyond me.
Hillary stumbled badly, but Chris Matthews is acting as if she hit a homerun.
That's because Tweety loves Republicans.
yeranalyst Thanks for an absolutely perfect and succinct epitomizing of the complete moral vacuity and blindness of the Libertarian movement. Libertarians beget Bush, simple as that. Oh, they will complian now that he is not their president. But, guess what, he is exactly their president, and he was elected precisely and exactly by their rules. The "free market" broguth him the money he needed to steal two elections and give the "free marketers" what they paid for: lower taxes and an absence of any meaningful government oversight.
Libertarianism is a nice philosophy, but it creates the politics of repression, rule by the wealthy, and disenfranchisement of everyone else.
Yerbrilliant, yeranalyst! Thanks much!
About Matthews and vacuity: The speech Al Sharpton gave at the Dem Convention was absolutely electrifying and brilliant. He brought people to their feet, standing up and cheering. Then Matthews and the other "pundits" piped in with their commentary. Matthews began the "discussion" by talking about how Sharpton had just turned the audience off, had distracted the proceedings with an off-messag rant, etc., etc., and the other idiots chimed in.
I was dumbfounded. Flabbergasted. Infuriated. And a little frightened.
It was clear that Matthews and his fellow panelists that night-- and most other nights -- were so deluded by their own certainties about the way the world works that they had become incapable of seeing the truth -- even when Al Sharpton is bringing the house down with it.
Sad. Very sad. But also scarey because these "pundits" are, after all, the folks who interpret the world for the lumpen proletariat.
Railden @ 18:
This is why I despise most american "liberals"
hello @ 142:
I agree about bycotting the Olympics. There was some BS goody-two-shoes promo on the Today Show this morning from Tiananmin Square and I was wondering how long it took to clean all the blodd off of it after the massacre that we so righteously turned our backs on. China is a very sick, represive society yet the forces of capitalism have allowed the IOC to turn it into a showcase for athletic prowess. How nauseating!
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