Glenn Greenwald on CSPAN: FISA
By John Amato Tuesday Aug 07, 2007 5:43pm
Glenn is a great friend and an expert on the NSA program. He hammers Dave Rivkin (WH apologist) on the pitfalls of this immoral program and the civil rights violations the Bushies have carried out against this great country. I made two clips to highlight his points...
GG: You admit that this new law does not require them to say that the person they are listening in on has anything to do with terrorism. That requirement has been eliminated with this new law. You admit that, right? There's no requirement at all...
Rivkin: That is correct...
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I guess we're all terrorists until proven innocent.
Glenn made some very impressive points, unlike the Reaganite official who just kept repeating that these government employees are professionals -- Professionals!!! --- who would never, ever, eavesdrop in any untoward way, even if it was totally secret and there was no possible review of their behavior.
Perhaps even more importantly, Greta Wodele is, just, astoundingly, amazingly gorgeous. And a great host. But also really, really amazing. Wow.
No. You don't say!
Just imagine what people with a nasty chip on their shoulder and a your either with us or against us mentality can get away with by spying-listening in on ANYONE they choose without limits.
It is really pathetic that the Democrats caved in to a lame-duck President who has less than 30% popularity. What I really mean is; I welcome our new christo-fascist overlords.
Oh; I see......the bush administration ONLY contains honorable people, so we can all rest easy.
L.A. Confidential @ 4:
Yeah, Hillary will need to be stopped. (snark). Be afraid, republicans, be very afraid.
Bush and co. have abused power time and time again.
Democrats go and expand his spying powers.
What am I missing??
AP - 1 hour, 49 minutes ago
WASHINGTON - President Bush was treated for Lyme disease last August, the White House announced Wednesday after failing to disclose the problem for nearly a year.
L.A. Confidential @ 9:
"Doctors have determined that the president remains in superior fitness for a man his age — anybody who's seen him on the bike or out and about certainly knows that — and that he is fit for duty," press secretary Tony Snow said.
"Fit for Duty" . . . . Militarism everywhere.
See, this is the way you get these crazy ideas repealed. Put some "expendable" folks in the media spotlight after the Democrats take over - have them stand up, and publicly admit that they are going to spy on someone famous.
Make it nightly news. You'll have, at the very least, all of the Libertarian-streak wingers complaining immediately.
Glenn, as usual, is great and knows from where he speaks.
Unfortunately, his warnings are too late since 41 House Dems and 19 Senate Dems decided to cave and give the Bush administration anything it wants. Why they caved is a bit of a mystery but it shows just how pathetic ad corrupt the entire system has become. It might be time for Democracy 2.0.
Will we be able to check our "Loyalty Record". Kind of like checking Your Credit Rating?
The White House can't even protect their own crooks, criminals and liars.
If you call your credit card company or need help regarding a product, your call will most likely be routed to an overseas call center such as India. That makes your call subject to wiretapping under these new powers.
I watched Glen and I thought he was terrific. He had a great grasp of the facts and the law and he buried Rivkin.
Rivkin is a real ass clown. He kept talking about the most inane examples of search and Glen wasn't having any of it.
It was refreshing to watch him.
Does anyone know what Rivkin's story is? He seems very weird to me.
Rivkin said that it is impossible for our government to enact a conspiracy for more than a year or two before it becomes public. Well, that's a relief! Does he have ANY IDEA how much damage such unchecked power could cause in a year or two?
did ya ever notice that some of the biggest supporters of today's fascism are naturalized citizens? they were born in less than free countries , and if America is less free, hell, it's still better than the land they grew up in , so no problema.
All your phone calls are now belong to us.
That's right, we can't just go around scaremongering and repeating mantras.
Oh, while I'm thinking about it, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11.
Thinking Person @ 15:
"Hello. I'm Joe. May I have your name, address, credit card and account number?"
All I have to say is...Glenn Greenwald is so awsome, he rocks my face off.
Seriously, how refreshing is it to see someone clearly and cogently stand up for the rule of law and for governmental oversight? I'm glad that he's finally getting his due.
And yes...Rikvin is a joke.
The irony is that Rivkin kept talking about how liberals indulge in fear mongering when that has been the M.O. of this administration for the past six and a half years and, as others have pointed out, the Democrats keep caving in to whatever Bush wants.
Nice to see the brilliant Greenwald is getting his due.
pinkobait @ 24:
He going to stop Bush?
None of us are brilliant enough to control Bush apparently.
Glenn made a clear and correct argument. The other guy simple had nothing to offer but spin.
Is this carte blanche for any administration to listen in on political opponents?
Rivkin is such an ass.
Greenwald says we need checks and balances, and Rivkin says he's scaremongering. Then he goes on to remind us that 3000 Americans died on September 11. What an ass.
Does anyone know the answer to the question about Eschalon?
By the way, nice fiction Rivkin is putting together about how wiretaps are done on foreign subjects. He doesn't know shit.
I don't know what its going to take to stop Bush L.A. other than a few dark fantasies best left unsaid.At any rate I'm not a violent man,just a passionate devotee of Democracy in its purest form.
Some fast food joint outsource your order to another country. All your request at a fast food joint will now be recorded, just don't say you want your taco explosively hot. That'll bring a swat team at your door step[!
And those 41 Dem House members and X number of Dem Senate Members voting "Aye"
on the new FISA law "Knew that we citizens could be listened in on when talking w/
a person in a foreign land, who are not know terriorist", and yet they voted in favor of.
WTF....As I understand, such restriction, according to above statements, has been
eliminated. That is absolutely the ultimate in violation of the 4th amendment and the
U.S. Constitution.
We dont need a law against misconduct, "lets assume" that the nice folks in the NSA wouldnt do such a thing.
In fact, why do we need a constitution? Lets assume that the professionals with all of the power of state are all just nice folks.
Also, forget this democracy thing. Lets assume that the king just wants whats best for us.
Somewhat OT-this from CAROL LAM on FDL a day or so ago.
Linked to Mark Levey at Democratic Underground.
A COMPLETE history of thuggery that appears well documented.
As I was reading it, and the links within, I couldn't help but recall the San Jose Mercury reporter who exposed Freeway Ricky peddling crack into LA's Watts, etc. All part of Iran/Contra if I vaguely recall . . . he lost his job, fell apart, and died a few years later . . . folks disappear, I guess when yer playing with the likes of THESE people . .
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&add...
Seems like a legit synopsis to me, from what I recall of history and such . . . thoughts?
If viable, please spread everywhere possible . . . I mean, it DOES explain why the Dem's are NOT standing ground . . . they're terrifed AND likely complicit, some of them.
The last caller, a woman, said that she would never believe anything the Bush administration said.
She said the Bush administration was the worst of her lifetime.
The moderator hastened the end of her call saying "OK we get it." Then she ignores the woman's statement
and changes it to a question about whether or not the Bush administration was effective in selling its' spying
program to the public.
What is happening to C-SPAN?
Here's something related, which brought back oh so many nightmares I read about long ago.
Pretty much tells why the Dem's are NOT standing ground-they're TERRIFIED, and some are likely complicit.
This is ugly shit . . . reminds me of the San Jose Mercury reporter who exposed Freeway Ricky long ago. Reporter fell apart from being hounded, and died a few years after . . . forgot if he took his own life.
Here's the ugly shit . . . seriously fugly:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&add...
Spread far and wide if it works for you . . . it seems legit to me . . . I know of these stories from the past, but having them all tied up like this to tell our present . . . scary . . . .
Rivkin's right...Secrecy is next to impossible with this administration. I mean, look at how many CIA agents they've outed over the years.
Are we really supposed to believe that this is about security?
You know, that link once pasted didn't work for me at FDL, either . . . for some it did.
So here's a link to Levey's Journal, at DU:
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/leveymg
Lesse if THAT will work . .
#34-Railden
Good point. That C-Span moderator seemed more concerned with brushing her hair back than with the content of what the caller had to say. Oftentimes it seems that television is more concerned with the looks of its personnel than with any kind of intelligence that they may possess.
Proposed GOP Bill of Assumptions (to replace the current Bill of Rights in order to help fight the terrists.)
Amendment I: Congress hopefully will make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances, unless they really really have to.
Amendment II: A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, probably won't be infringed. Unless it is.
Amendment III: No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law. Or whim.
etc.
Ok, so, if everything the administration is doing "to protect america" by spying on phone conversations is being done by "professionals" and is completely above board, why is it all done in secret, with no oversight? And why was it denounced by former attorney general John Ashcroft as illegal? And why would they, if everything was above board, not be able to get a warrant from the FISA courts? If a situation was really urgent and they didn't have time to go thru the courts and get a warrant *right then*, the law already allows for a warrant to be issued retroactively up to 72 hours later. So why, if everything is above board, and only spying on suspected terrorists, was a FISA amendment necessary to allow wiretapping without a warrant? Does this make any sense?
What kills me about all this is that the people who are saying that the FISA amendment was necessary either don't know the law at all, or know it full well and are LYING. For anyone to claim to be any kind of professional regarding these matter and do either of the aformentioned, especially the second, is a sin plain and simple.
The Bushes aren't interested in spying on terrorists. They have NEVER been concerned with terrorism. They are using this program to spy on their political opposition. They have been spying on the opposition and fixing elections since the Nixon era.
What's happening to CNN?
The White House has the power and the means to shut out any reporter if they do not co-operate with them. We need a law that protects the media from being shut out or shutdown. FOX news is the worse of its kind in presenting the fact, yet they can guaranteed coverage of any of its Official in the White House.
They have threaten to do away with any press releases, and Tony Snow is the last chance to have them.
hillary needs to use this to get after the right wing conspirators.
Smack_dab @ 5:
Amen, couldn't of said it better. Canada is looking better and better, and I HATE the cold. The Dems will most doubtly run Hillary and either Obama or Edwards. The only one of them I like is Edwards but he'll probably turn out to be full of shit too. We'll see after 2008, if we make it that long.
Greenwald really handed Rivkin his ass at the end of the second clip. Masterfully done.
They can listen to my phone calls and read my e-mails all they want. It only proves that they are guilty of treason in addition to being war criminals. May everyone associated with this treasonous government be tried at the Hague , convicted of war crimes and hung.
Why post this John? Do you wish to continue to remind yourself of your Ineffectualness?
What I don't understand is how David Rivkin can have such confidence in 'the professionals' when Bush, Cheney, Rove and Gonzales have demonstrated in every other federal agency, FDA, FEMA, DOJ, DOD, INTERIOR, etc.. They have demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt how easy it is to subvert these agencies and their professional staffs with well placed, devious GOP management. The power for abuse is too obvious. How does he ignore it?
This administration is the worst in my lifetime - I didn't think that Carter
could be "topped" but Bush has done it.
Interpreter of Maladies @ 8:
A lobotomy. You have to get a lobotomy before you understand their master plan.
glenn keeps his cool so well! in my next life, ill be unshakeable and calm, too. he came of well!
Tigerwong @ 40:
From . . . people who are violating the Constitution. Not this crew. They pick and chose their enemies to create scapegoats.
Certain enemies in the White House. Speculative enmies on the phone. Time for the prosecutors to go after the current and former WH-EOP-DoJ Staff counsel that put this mess together. Let's get some indictmens on the table. Then get legal counseld disbarred. These are real FISA violations.
HEY SQUAT THRUST, the real point is that there are 16 turncoat senators who are traitors to the party. It is still unfathomable that these 16 would vote this way even while the gonzales hearings are exposing the Bush Crime Family for what it is and how it operates to the observant.
Wait a second here, this time is not the white house alone, let's not forget the 28 democrats. I will not give them a free pass.
Guilty until proven innocent: How Rovian.
Glen missed the main point that Ron Paul told to Tucker. Which is, the reason why we are OK giving personal information to private businesses is because if they use the info improperly we can have the government investigate them and maybe prosecute them. (Also we give the info voluntarily)
This is a sharp contrast to giving info to the government, in which case, if they do something wrong with the info WHO will protect us. The government investigate itself, BULLSHIT. Also sobriety check points and the airport strip searches are completely unnecessary and totalitarian, nobody is OK with those.
This Rivkin guy is a complete fool, saying to 'just trust' the career government employees. My experience is that government employees are dumber and more corrupt than people in the private sector, the only thing the makes some of them less destructive is that they are sometimes too lazy to harm you.
Interpreter of Maladies @ 8:
Just your rights, not to worry.
I won't comment on either side of this issue. This comment is of international in origin, and subject to inteception. In fact, this entire thread is therefore subject to interception and scrutiny.
Cheers.
who exactly is the conservative here? the guy that says "hey, just trust the gov't"? That ass just keeps trying to say that these upstanding gov't officials wouldn't abuse the priveledge. well how would we ever know? his off the cuff factless hypothetical argument is something like "their too busy to abuse your privacy, right? well how is this for an off the cuff question: the gov't would NEVER abuse its authority right? would it? oh no! every last stinking NSA official is always ethical, all the time. gimme a break. I want some oversight, and I want some transparency.
What bothers me is that this Rivkin says "foreigner" the same way others say "bogeyman". So its okay to spy on foreigners with no oversight? Fine.
What about all of the American citizens who live outside of the United States, either as military personnel or simply as part of the global free-market juggernaut that Repubs admire so much? How do they know that both participants AREN'T American citizens UNTIL THEY ARE ALREADY LISTENING IN. Maybe I am crazy to think this would make any difference to these asssholes.
Hasn't anyone else noticed that every mundane detail about Bush and his minions like Gonzales, Meiers, etc. must be kept in absolute secrecy due to some made up "executive priviledge?" On the otherhand, the established right of every American to not be searched/spied on without due cause or oversight means nothing????? Whatever. I can only hope that fuckwit Bush personally read everything I ever said about him. He has every reason to be afraid of the people in THIS country.
I wrote the producers after watching this video. This host does something at about 7:50 that is a common Fox News trick by suggesting that the illegal spying program is "necessary".
Check it out.
Scott @ 61:
Sorry, I watched it again. She did not say "necessary". She said "...the need for programs like this one."
He was good -
but Again - the righties are filibusters we need to learn to do that - the guy on the other side - was smug. Glenn had a few comebacks - but I would smoked this guys lunch with being affiliated with policies and administrations that have had illegal activity and crooks for the past 30 year.
Scott @ 61:
she is alittle righty I have watched her from the get go - I think she came over from the hotline or The Hill - The hill is a righty paper. But she has gotten alot better.
Tigerwong @ 40:
Perfectly said - Glenn can quote you
i heard this on Washington Journal yesterday. After that performance Rivkin should have left feeling ashamed of himself.
I disagree entirely with Greenwald's recent approval of Obama's warmongering statements about Pakistan.
We don't need any more Presidents who want to play tough guy.
Are people more safe and secure in repressive countries? How does giving up our Constitutional and Civil Rights make us more safe than those who don't have them in dictatorial regimes? The misguided argument that we must lose our rights in order to be safe and secure makes no sense at all...
And why would we trust someone to spy on us who has proven to be so untrustworthy over and over and over again. What was Congress thinking when they wrote yet another blank check to this dangerous and destructive administration? Isn't it time to stop the insanity???
.
Through out history we've seen times were government plays on the fear of people. But the truth lies within our founders - Ben Franklin, said "Those who would give up essential liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety". Take nothing for granted, these are the liberties that our forefathers have fought for. Power is Corrupt. Please send the a message, "how dare you" we put you in to do what is right for America, NOT what Bush threatens you with. Spineless http://www.youpolls.com/details.asp?pid=281
let's mention "clinton"
and "sept 11"
nothing to be concerned about you citizens--only people who want the best for you will decide what and who to listen to.
"media hostility"
i'm surprised the guy didn't argue that george washington had
"fundamentally contrary to the system of government that the founders created"
sorry about that comment -- i hit the submit comment before my thought was finished
Shorter Rivkin: "That's partisan fearmongering! 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! These nice professionals would never violate your privacy. But you would be safer if you didn't worry so much about your privacy. 9/11! 9/11! 9/11!"
I think we should just trust the president - Britney Spears.
What that idiot thinks is red tape is the only thing holding this country together.
How do they even know that only foreigners are involved at the overseas location?
I HATE when they say "honorable career men and women of the NSA" will be listening and monitoring to ease our worries of government overstepping.
I don't give a DAMN if they wake up and turn toward Washington ten times a day to say the pledge of allegance while reading the constitution for easy reading with the eagle as their computer wall paper and the American flag as their screensaver. They are employees who report to political appointees, can be threatened up to their lives if they whistle blow or "say too much" because of the sensitive nature of what they do, or be forced to resign in protest (which this administration wouldn't care so long as they get to install loyal Bushies).
What part of judicial oversite don't these people get? One of the framers said we designed the government in such a way that the devil himself could run it. He was speaking of the beauty of government checks and balances. That's been tossed in this law, and now we're left with the devil running it, and we're left with a trust me and a big "F*CK YOU!".
Glenn Greenwald is absolutely correct. All calls and e-mails - repeat all - are scanned by computers to identify those communications that potentially contain intel. How else would the NSA figure out which communication to screen?
Rivkin is so full of shit; it is astonishing to watch the depths of intellectual dishonesty that some really smart people can sink to when they let ideology substitute for thinking. If the government employees were as honorable as Rivkin is claiming they will be, they would to a person refuse to participate in any activities which undermine the Constitution. That's just not going to happen. They are going to do what they are told, and the people who are telling them what to do are always going to be political appointees - people who have demonstrated that loyalty to the Despot is the ONLY thing that matters. It will be unprincipled crooked,corrupt eager loyalist yes-men calling the shots. Abuse is not only possible, it is certain.
That abuse and violation of the People will be pervasive; it will become one of the defining qualities of life in this newly launched United Police States of America. And those nameless, numberless civil servants will be the vital cogs and gears, without which the machine of tyranny will not be able to function. Watch it happen. There is no other possible outcome.
Thank you Dems for selling out and voting for all of Bushies crap legislation you cowardly wimps.
uh, that was a message to the govmnt, not the voters.
Incapable of performing like the Nixon administration? If he means that they are incapable of violating only the laws the Nixon admistration did he is correct, but the bush regime has gone way beyond that. Leave it to a republican to call in and imply what bush is doing is just dandy because Clinton supposedly did something similar. I guess murder is okay now too, since Manson did it in the 70's.
It is also very annoying for the neocon sympathizer to pretend that bush has done nothing to earn the great concern Americans should have about his trampling on our constitution. If only we could all love bush so we could debate.
Glenn handed Rivkin Rivkin's ass in a hat. Well done Glenn.
Caller #2 pretty much summed it up. If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and acts like a duck. You can be pretty sure it's a duck. This Administration is without question what it appears to be. C-span lady: teh hawt.
It seems the argument posited by David Rivkin can most effectively be argued against if seen akin to the medical marijuana argument made by those against legalization. The medical contrarians argue that legalization would make the drug more available to the illegal market.
The same argument can be cross-collateralized to wiretapping. By introducing the Protect America Act (given the 1978 wiretapping law and Echelon) we make illegal wiretapping more available to rogue politicians.
While marijuana and wiretapping are very different, they share the quality that if available, they will be abused.
L.A. Confidential @ 9:
Did you mean Lyme or Lying Disease?
We have to hold Congress responsible. They are incompetent and corrupt. They allow the special interest groups to enhance laws without any oversight. They are only interested in getting elected/re-elected and have no intention to look for future generation. Congress is a follower and not a leader because they do not stand up for the true essence of democracy - life, liberty, and happiness.
Chip @ 86:
Good one! LOL
Rivkin better get with a publicist and a tailor. He looked like the clothes he was wearing had been laying on the floor for a couple of days and that sport coat was a couple of sizes too small. I suppose if you're a greasy weasel you should also look the part.
Greenwald did well, especially since I've heard Rivkin on the radio bully his way over many another guest in the past. His pitch here is authoritarian: trust us, and how dare you question the patriotism of the NSA? It doesn't matter if the NSA are all swell folks. The system needs oversight, and checks upon it. What's ironic is that Rivkin admits that we've been able to survey foreign terrorists under existing law, which raises the question as to why we need these new, radical changes (which Rivkin consistently mischaracterizes, most of all on how there's oversight). He also talks about the "need to have a serious debate" while trying to shut it down! Rivkin, like many Bush backers, tries to pretend that animosity toward Bush is irrational and not based on overwhelming evidence.
Daverz @ 73:
Thank you, you performed a public service by summarizing their bloviated comments.
The IRONY is, to hear CONS like Rivkin, who for the past 27 years have never missed an opporutnity to tell us that "Government is the problem" and that "the scariest words anyone could hear are 'I'm from the Government and I'm here to help" is arguing that we accept it on faith that "the good, hardworking, employees of the NSA" would never abuse their powers!
What a maroon!
So...we're supposed to trust the career people at NSA because they would never do anything wrong...and then we're supposed to believe that "we won't see anything like in the Nixon administration..."
If it happened once, it will happen again. And we all know it's happening now.
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