MTP: Markos Discusses the Emergence of the Netroots Movement
By Nicole Belle Saturday Aug 11, 2007 12:45pm
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DailyKos Founder Markos Moulitsas Zuniga explains to guest host David Gregory on Meet The Press why the netroots movement signals the end of "business as usual" politicking for the Democratic party.
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As Chomsky states frequently, the overwhelming majority of American people are significantly left of the the Republican AND Democratic party.
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And the internet is now allowing Americans to bypass the filter of the corporate media who consistently tell the lie that Americans are a "Conservative" group. In addition, the corporate media ignores social issues that matter and that Americans -- if given the choice -- would vote liberally on these issues. Instead, Americans get sensational stories and stories that glorify patriotism.
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Yahoo! That was great and I'll be sure and watch the whole show later on MSNBC. Go Markos.
Wait a minute hold on here I know there's big problems with the Dems but he should going after the Republicans.
Don't divert effort and energy away from the Republican problem. I know Markos is an ex Reagan Republican but lets get focused on the real problem here at hand. Bush and Cheney and the Neocons.
Undermining the Dems and giving the Cons an advantage isn't going to help anyone.
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And, oh yeah -- FRIST!
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[Deleted. Wacko conspiracy theory]
L.A. Confidential @ 4:
The American system is the problem.
This idea that this is a Conservative country is a lie in my opinion. Even John Kerry's failed campaign was still able to attract 48% of the votes. I believe if Democrats stick to their ideals in the face of Republican attatcks, they would get 55% - 60% of the national vote every time. It's when they appear weak and uncertain that independents vote Republican because I'd rather support the person who stands for something than the person who stands for nothing at all.
STOP George @ 7:
Well of course but how many addicts are willing to go cold turkey?
Probing question from mainstream media hack Gregory: But... you're a LIBERAL!"
You f-ing suck, Gregory. Learn to think for once in your empty suit hacktastic life.
Markos cleaned house! I don't think he could've done any better, even if Ford had been bound and gagged!
Madame Defarge ie "Markos and the CIA": Let's see your sources on this claim. Video? Transcript? Any other hard evidence of this claim?
I'm not trying to get into a debate here really. I don't buy the claim, but if you've got something solid on it, I'm really interested in seeing it. I've met Markos and talked to him, hell, last Sat night he was hanging out with all of us in the hotel at YK in Chicago. I'm damn good at reading people and he struck me as completely genuine. Doesn't mean I would've picked up on anything like you're claiming here, but even if he had, I'd consider it an asset, more than a liability.
Mister Anderson @ 10:
It's a monstrous lie -- and the only way they can keep the lie going is through a corporate controlled media.
Here is the link to watch the whole thing.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10386260/
Madame Defarge @ 6:
Oh God, it starts.
Oh btw, you have to click on the red text "NBC Meet the Press Netcast" , to get it to start.
L.A. Confidential @ 11:
Well, if you don't cure the addiction to being blind -- then you're going to be doomed to repeat your failures, aren't you?
Sites like this one and DK are one step towards bypassing this heinous addiction.
The problem is the focus on the self-important Markos.
Now that he's been on MTP how long till he sells out?
People, people! There wouldn't have been a debate here if the DLC would lift their heads out of their butts and realize who the real Democrats are. I've been screaming at the air for the last five years, be proud of who you are and stand up and speak out! Stop whimpering every time some Republican says you're wimps! Markos is right and thank God for the internet.
How many Americans have died during this so-called "strong" President's term? Over 7,000! 3,000+ on 9/11, 3,000+ troops in an illegal war against Iraq. Who was President? BUSH! Every speech and every campaign ad should show how many American's have died during our current cowboy President's reign! Numbers don't lie, just Bush and Cheney.
It has become obvious to me that we have to impeach Cheney, or we are going to be sitting here watching our airforce and probably navy lob bombs into Iran and make what is a terrible mess now, into the worst war in our history.
CalGal @ 20:
HERE! HERE!!!
senator ford who was also on the program espouses taking the road of the centrist. according to him, that's the way for the dems to win. don't go too far left and certainly not too far right. just take a middle of the road approach and you alienate no one too much and you pick up stragglers or the undecided along the way.
that's a formula guaranteed to win. but while he was saying it, i was thinking the whole time of two scenarios: you can definitely win with that approach, but is it all about winning? should you win and implement your centrist ideas, is that not exactly what the repubs want, "bush light". so what is gained in the process? sound like a hollow victory. the second scenario is take the centrist position because then a win is attainable. and once that win is in the bag then implement the more radical ideas that the left embraces. the second scenario has to have a lot of trust that once they win they will go ahead implement the other agenda. is there anything (impeachment is off the table) that the elected dems have done of late that should foster that trust? not in my opinion.
Mister Anderson @ 10:
NAILED IT!
Madame Defarge @ 6:
Have anything redemptive to share Madame, or are paranoid visions the best you can do?
Gregory - "your a liberal"
Madame Defarge - "he's CIA"
"me" - "he's a sell out"
MARKOS - this isn't ABOUT ME. you're trying to make it ABOUT ME.
haw
When you think about it, Markos has accomplished something extraordinary. Ford is a has-been.
Right now Markos is THE cutting edge of progressivism.
STOP George @ 2:
This is exactly why I think Net Neutrality is so important. Keeping the corporate telecoms from filtering "the tubes."
no longer a proud american @ 22:
No offence, but the reason that the Dems can "win" on this "centrist" platform is because of these scenarios...
1. The republicans fuck-up so bad, that they win by default. (the current scenario)
2. They win on personality issues (because there's no real difference between the two parties).
The centrist platform exists for the Dems, because the political agenda is baked by the 5% who really control this country. You must change the system. A revolution is in order!
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CruzBustamove @ 27:
Damn Straight!! It may be one of the most important issues Americans face now!!
Mister Anderson @ 10:
When it comes to ideas and ideals, most Americans lean to the left. When it comes to labels, a large number of Americans classify themselves with a label that runs counter to many of the ideals they would otherwise support.
Cismontane @ 26:
Don't start worshiping the guy as messiah.
Thats will defeat the whole purpose of open dialog.
Cismontane @ 26:
No. It's not "Markos" -- as he will tell you. It is US!! WE now have a mass-media platform. The internet.
Marcos is a great spokesperson and advocate. He really has a way with words to state the obvious.
STOP George @ 32:
Until Bush shuts it down if a major war starts.
Don't think thats not possible.
L.A. Confidential @ 31:
recognising the guy for accomplishing something is now worshipping? whatever
The net's abuzz with talk about the essay Kos wrote back in '93 in favor of a ban on gays in the military.
L.A. Confidential @ 34:
Nope. That wouldn't happen -- it would have to be more subtle than that. I'm pretty sure people, at this stage in the game, would not let a mass shutdown happen.
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I think centrism has destroyed the Democrats. I don't care though, I think the whole idea of two parties ruling the country alone is patently wrong. You know who will win the next election? A centrist Democrat. You know what they'll do? Put on a happy Clinton face while carrying out lots of conservative policies nobody in America beyond a 4th grade education wants. We're damned if we do, damned if we don't until the American people realize we need to take the idea of other parties seriously, and do the work of putting them in government so there are real checks and balances.
And I don't even know why people are worried about another Republican becoming President right now... the republicans themselves are the deciding vote there (it's been 50/50 for how long now?) and they are fed up with their party.
So you'll have your Democrat in office, but they aren't the princes of peace they appear to be.
If something isn't working, admit the mistake, stop doing it and try something else. How American, and liberal.
Professor Farnsworth @ 35:
Just keep your perspective. What Markos needs to do is watch it because the right is on the attack on Kos right now and they are defining what it is according to their game. In fact they are several steps ahead of Kos and if Kos doesn't get with it they are going to be on the Defensive here soon.
Don't get caught up into this "wow we were on TV kid stuff" because this is the real deal friend.
Kos is as big an enabler as anyone in the DLC he's now criticizing, backing the Party over the people. He's gotten what he wants. He's an insider now.
STOP George @ 37:
Don't delude yourself pal.
David Ehrenstein @ 36:
David, david... how old was Kos in '93, 14?
David Ehrenstein @ 36:
This is how the media will attack us. Making it personal with high-profile net-roots organizers. But we can't let that happen! We're bigger than just one person.
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L.A. Confidential @ 42:
A mass shutdown of the internet? LOL! Give me a break. The corporate world is dependent on this technology too, you know.
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Manila Ryce @ 41:
Kos, himself, is irrelevant in the grand scope of things.
Here's the story
That's your excuse? You're going to have to do a LOT better than that, dear.
This idea that this is a Conservative country is a lie in my opinion. Even John Kerry’s failed campaign was still able to attract 48% of the votes. I believe if Democrats stick to their ideals in the face of Republican attatcks, they would get 55% - 60% of the national vote every time. It’s when they appear weak and uncertain that independents vote Republican because I’d rather support the person who stands for something than the person who stands for nothing at all.
Absolutely right. This country is centrist not conservative. It is full of people on the fence waiting for those who will stand up and be passionate. The only people doing that for the past 25 years have been Republicans and they have had great success even though their actual policies are often crazy. Democrats have spent too much time believing what Republicans say about America and putting their finger in the wind before they make their own stand on issues.
Real leaders will stand up for something even if it doesn't look like they will win. When they do this, something amazing often happens. All those people on the fence suddenly see a light to follow and they jump on board. Suddenly, something that was a marginal viewpoint is suddenly front page conventional wisdom. Democrats need to be beaten over the head with this until they stop being politicians driven by fear and start being leaders again. If they don't get it, then it is up to us to primary them out and primary new leaders in.
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STOP George @ 45:
The Corporate World and MIC doesn't need the Public internet to operate at full efficiency during war.
Interesting to see some of the same people who claimed they would never vote Democratic again (as if they ever did) after the DLC once again undermined the party and handed Bush the unfettered ability to spy on Americans are now attacking Markos.
The full debate is posted here.
http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm?f=00&t=s53&g=e10461f7-89e1-415c-aa58...
They end up shaking hands, so it's not quite as rough as the clips appear, though Kos wiped the floor of Harold for the first several minutes.
L.A. Confidential @ 49:
Sorry. You would have millions out of work if this were the case. I'm just not buying this "shut down the internet" thing. The attack on net-neutrality, on the other hand, is a very viable threat however.
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Is this blog a member of the Netroot Nation?
There should be a logo stating you are.
Merging a people movement with all left wing blogs is a great idea.
Pretty freaking funny right there!!
This whole obsession, this "Cult of Personality" BS running roughshod throughout or media and society seems to prevent far too many people of realizing that the point of all this isn't about any one person or another. As has been stated again and again throughout this thread (particularly by STOP George!); this is about ALL of us.
Snowball @ 50:
Probably 75% of the country doesn't even know who Markos is. On both sides. Not as many Americans as you might think spend all their time surfing the blogs as an "free" enterprise occupation.
LOL. . .strange world.
Plisko @ 46:
NO. Actually, the country is to the left of center. It is the media that distorts this reality. Just look at health-care.
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Marcos is correct!
The question we should be asking here, is: What is the DLC and who do they represent?
Who funds the DLC:
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1463
he DLC and its close associate, the PPI, receive grants from many Fortune 500 companies and various right-wing foundations such as the Bradley Foundation. According to the a 2002 study by the Capital Research Center, corporate contributors to the PPI have included the AT&T Foundation, Eastman Kodak Charitable Trust, Prudential Foundation, Georgia-Pacific Foundation, Chevron, and Amoco Foundation. The Third Way Foundation, an umbrella group of the New Democrats in the DLC, receives funding from the Lynde & Harry Bradley Foundation, Howard Gilman Foundation, Ameritech Foundation, and General Mills Foundation. According to John Nichols in the Progressive, the DLC has had funding from Bank One, Citigroup, Dow Chemical, DuPont, General Electric, Health Insurance Corporation, Merrill Lynch, Microsoft, Morgan Stanley, Occidental Petroleum, and Raytheon (Progressive, October 2000).
What is the Bradley Foundation and what do they want:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynde_and_Harry_Bradley_Foundation
http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=11219
http://www.mediatransparency.org/funderprofile.php?funderID=1
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Bradley_Foundation
To understand the DLC, you must understand the Bradley Foundation.
STOP George @ 50:
Whatever you want to believe guy. It's always a good idea to consider a worst case scenario so you know how to deal with it and have a plan b.
The Japanese thought they were invincible on the day Little Boy came raining down on them too.
STOP George @ 54:
Ok I'll give you that point if you will agree the the rest of what I said was the importaint part. Lots of people are unsure what to think and that often makes it seem like they are part of the conventional wisdom. When a good leader stands up passionately for an importaint issue, those people will often follow and, suddenly, what everyone THOUGHT was the conventional wisdom can suddenly change.
David Ehrenstein @ 45:
David,
I've been reading blogs going on 8 years now, even your blog once in a while. And I've watched some of these people grow and develop. Markos strikes me as a smart guy, he's all growed up and even learned to speak on the teevee. You're still a gay guy with a small blog doing your thing. Nothing wrong with that. You're a single issue democrat. Kos wants to build something bigger. Get with the program.
[Delteted. Off topic]
Am I sensing some Markos envy by some here?
STOP George @ 44:
Kos does his part, just like the Democratic Party, in making the word "Liberal" just a slogan. Look at how much the anti-war movement has fizzled just by being attached to the Democrats. People like Kos have disillusioned potential liberals into following conservative leadership, thereby making true liberalism impotent. I wouldn't say he's irrelevant.
Woo Hoo, Markos! Good for you! Harold Ford looks like the ugly regressive that he is. You ran circles around him and left him bewildered.
Plisko @ 58:
Yes, I agree. As Markos states -- Dems should be PROUD to hold liberal values. WHY? Because the majority of Americans are liberal.
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Manila Ryce @ 62:
I think he explained himself clearly on MTP by stating that it is "not about him". It isn't. It never was. The anti-war effort is fizzling because of the nauseating apathy in American culture -- nurtured, in a large part, by the corporate culture. I don't see how Markos could even come close to the effect that corporate America has had on it's citizens. To say he is a big player in this apathy is outrageous IMO, in fact. He has done more to spur on real debate on issues than anyone else that I can think of. Sure, there are issues which are taboo at DKos that I think should be talked about more (such as 9/11) -- but all-in-all, the DKos community -- and more importantly -- the net-roots community is helping (not hurting) the anti-war movement.
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STOP George @ 64:
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Well I'm glad we agree on the basic point but I think there are a lot of people who hold both liberal and conservative views and others who are not sure at all and waiting for someone to be their role model. Some of these views are strong and others are manufactured by their upbringing and the media pundits. That leaves them more open to change their mind than pure liberal or pure conservative but it could go either way. There is plenty of room for liberals to gain their support but I don't think it makes them completely liberal or they would vote liberal over conservative even if the candidates sucked.
Madame Defarge @ 60:
*Yawn* Listened to it, there's no there there. He applied to the CIA and never joined. Valery Plame worked for the CIA and is a Liberal, so what? Some of the best critics of CIA activities have worked for the CIA such as Phillip Agee.
More clips on Markos please.
More of progressives standing tall like this Please.
I guess since this is on the internets, I should say it as "More Pliz. K thx. Bai!"
Plisko @ 66:
Well I'm glad we agree on the basic point but I think there are a lot of people who hold both liberal and conservative views and others who are not sure at all and waiting for someone to be their role model. Some of these views are strong and others are manufactured by their upbringing and the media pundits. That leaves them more open to change their mind than pure liberal or pure conservative but it could go either way. There is plenty of room for liberals to gain their support but I don't think it makes them completely liberal or they would vote liberal over conservative even if the candidates sucked.
What I'm saying is this...
If Americans were given the chance to have a truly open and public forum to discuss the issues that really matter to them (even after being indoctrinated) then there is no question that the overwhelming majority would hold liberal opinions.
The internet is the first forum in many many years to allow Americans to do this. They can FINALLY see the truth and discuss it amongst themselves -- with people who are perhaps thousands of miles away from them. A true national and international forum of ideas -- devoid of the PR trickery from the mainstream media.
Republican ideas will fail in this open forum. Let me repeat that...
Republican ideas will fail in this open forum.
Republican ideas will fail in this open forum.
Republican ideas will fail in this open forum.
Republican ideas will fail in this open forum.
That's why the elite are so scared right now.
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STOP George @ 65:
I never claimed Kos has more influence over us than corporate America, but the apathetic nature you're describing is not helped by the partisan role Markos plays. It may not be "politics as usual", but it's still politics. Party is put above all else. You're correct in stating that the majority of America is liberal. However, very few Democrats are. Markos has consistently attacked people like Dennis Kucinich, who are truly liberal and anti-war. As you've touched on, we both know that his personal politics play a bigger role at DailyKos than he portrays in the clip.
David Ehrenstein @ 45:
Well, geez, we may as well just ignore everything he's ever said or done then.
[Deleted. This has what to do with what?]
Madame Defarge@72
So, your point would be...?
LA Confidential had it right in the beginning of this thread.
One of the major problems with liberals is that the first people they attack are those who don't conform to their ideology (does anyone see something wrong here?). We need to concentrate our fire on Republicans.
Family squabbling can come after the bad guys are sent packing though I sincerely hope the liberal side of the equation stop demanding philosophical purity.
While we're at it - take back the once honorable label "liberal." Forget "progressive" or any of the other synonyms we use because we're afraid of what we are.
We are liberal We are diverse AND we should respect the opinions of all other liberals. Drumming them out is illiberal.
I'm "still a gay guy"? You mean at 60 I shoudl have "evolved" into something else by now? My "single issue" is multi-facted -- a fact I've been keenly aware of ever since I blossomed into my Full Queer Glory back in 1961.
And you fancy that I'm a Democrat, do you.
I'm an anarcho-syndicalist. Get with the program!
Manila Ryce @ 70:
True enough. But at DKos, there is a wide range of views. Myself, I have posted a few diaries in support of Kucinich. I have never been told to leave, however.
Notice in that MTP clip that Markos never really goes into any details about what his political leanings are. That's not the point, afterall. DKos is NOT about Markos, despite what the corporate media would have us believe.
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straight shooter @ 74:
When your party doesn't reflect the majority opinion, then you must work to fix that. Otherwise, it is all a ruse.
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Snowball @ 73:
[Deleted. You are trying to create a conspiracy theory, and a lame one at that. This will be the last time that you are asked to get back on the topic. Next stop, banning]
David Gregory:
David, your true calling is as a Christian rock evangelical dancer. You don't want to be doing this hard journalism stuff.
straight shooter @ 74:
Right now, the Democratic Party is not liberal. This is why the left is fighting amongst each other, because the politicians leading the left are actually conservative. Voting for Democrats won't mean a damn thing if those Democrats aren't liberal. Sure, we can be sheep and want them to win, but what have WE won? The "bad guys" aren't just in one certain party.
What's really interesting about Gregory finding fault with Markos' partisanship is that he (no Corporate Media hack would) ever ask that of a Republican. Partisanship is only ever criticized or pointed out when it comes from the left. When Republicans do it, the Corporate Media hail them as being "resolute" and "straight talking."
STOP George @ 69:
What I'm saying is this...
If Americans were given the chance to have a truly open and public forum to discuss the issues that really matter to them (even after being indoctrinated) then there is no question that the overwhelming majority would hold liberal opinions.
The internet is the first forum in many many years to allow Americans to do this. They can FINALLY see the truth and discuss it amongst themselves -- with people who are perhaps thousands of miles away from them. A true national and international forum of ideas -- devoid of the PR trickery from the mainstream media.
Republican ideas will fail in this open forum. Let me repeat that...
Republican ideas will fail in this open forum.
Republican ideas will fail in this open forum.
Republican ideas will fail in this open forum.
Republican ideas will fail in this open forum.
That's why the elite are so scared right now.
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Well we still agree so I guess it's semantics. What some would call liberal ideas today, fiscal responsibility, following the constitution, keeping the church out of government. . etc were conservative ideas yesterday. Barry Goldwater is left of center by many of todays standards. Often, "controversies" between parties are manufactured with wedge issues that focus on the differences rather than the similarities in viewpoint. So I guess it depends on the questions being asked of people and the time period they are asked in as to where EVERYONE agrees if pressed on things and which are specifically going to come from the liberal or conservatives of the day.
Your right. The bad ideas from either side will not stand up to scrutiny in an open public debate. That used to be congresses job but now it's up to us. Gotta run for now. Thanks for the feedback.
straight shooter and LA Confidential - I disagree. We need to clean up and repair our party. We need to remove current management and replace with new management.
The Republican party was a failed party near the end of Clinton's term. Their perception among Americans had bounced from high to low. Their attempt at an impeachment/coup had failed. It took Karl Rove's and other's consultation to create the "Neo Con" movement, to propel the party back to relevance and power.
The Democrat party needs a "Neo Lib" movement. We we voted in people who turned out to be soft-spined losers in 2006 - to get us out of an illegal war, to re-ignite the economy, to bring criminal GOP powers to justice - and those wimps are cowtowing to a false perception that they'll look "weak" or "lose votes" if they proceed. They're afraid to put their necks out there like Kos has.
This is why I strongly advocate people like Kos - and many times, this site as well - "dividing" the Democratic party, as you put it. Its not division... its a management shake-up in the interest of benefitting the company as a whole. and its probably going to piss off the current management. The Pelosi's, the Reed's, the Kerry's... their turn is over. and just like typical GOP baby boomer aged powerhouses in the late 90's, the current crop of DNC "leaders" are not happy about it. oh well. its about party, not party leaders.
Snowball @ 81:
Markos handled it well. He himself is proud to be a partisan (as am I at this point, heavily partisan), but let's the community go in the direction they want to go.
Snowball @ 81:
ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!
To frame the mainstream American view as being "extreme" is a ploy that is committed by the corporate media all of the time. I wish someone would call them on that.
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[deleted]
Keep your posts on the topic and not other posters.
Erevann @ 11:
He admitted it himself. Well, ex-operatives in the post-soviet countries (East Germany, Checkoslovakia, Poland) have lost their careers and privileges for life, some have become multi-millionaire and some have gone bankrupt. Being CIA operative is advantage IF, you assume CIA is good, can be trusted and works for the common good of the US citizens, would never act against the Americans, would never deceive and lie to farther a certain agenda, namely to start wars, cause bloody revolutions around the world, assassinate inconvenient leaders, create artificial oppositions to make the impression of a well functioning democracy, etc, or is disadvantage IF, that wasn't true at all.
Plisko @ 82:
You're right. These ideas seem to be relative to the time and I guess I am talking about the Republican ideas today (being neo-conservative).
Today, true liberals stand-up for the people. Today's Republican party stands-up for the corporate elite at the expense of the people.
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[deleted - refers to deleted post]
yarg @ 86:
As long as that's clear in your mind -- I guess that's all that matters. I wish you much success in your name-calling.
We'll let you respond, but let's not feed that one again.
Mister Anderson @ 8:
I think this is the inherrent weakness for the liberal mind - i.e. the Democrats. They have so many ideas floating in their heads and see so many shades of gray that they have a really hard time settling on a focus point for issues. Whereas the narrow minded zealot has no problem zoning in on the only single point in his head. This makes the single minded thinker appear "strong." Dems have so many ideas they have trouble agreeing how to get things done. Probably a dangerous weakness for all of us. I think this was one of John Kerry's big weaknesses. It's hard to appear decisive when you're analyzing things from every angle and see so many possibilities.
If you buy the meme that America is a conservative country, it's a short step from there to buying a line that America is country that deeply values its good, solid totalitarian undepinnings or that Americans are a nation of subjects who love their Elite Overlords. It's all bullshit.
It seems to me that the sickness in this country derives directly from America abandoning, with help every step of the way from our subverted DLC, its historic liberal and progressive principles, prinicples which gave us our moral authority within the world, principles which, when put into play, made this country the envy and hope of a world of many darknesses.
Unlike some commentors above, whom I greastly respect, I am not of the opinion that we should ignore or tolerate the corrupting and subversion of the DLC in favor of "dealing with" the Republicans. The DLC is within our immediate circle of both influence and control, while the Republicans are not, nor can they be until our own house is healed of disease. And, I am convinced that the DLC is a sickness in our own house, akin to a cancer. It is eating away our soul, mainly because it has repeatedly attempted to barter away that soul (a set of enduring principles around which we have shaped ourselves), in order to gain a transient advantage among those who do not have the country's best interests in mind or at heart.
The DLC, together with the DCCC and DSCC, has been making a quiet business of ingratiating itself with that which it perceives to be an emerging power structure these last many years. It's made a deal with the devil and in the process become ruddlerless and empty. Look at the candidates they most support: Corporatists all, presented as "Centrists". We are given a choice only of souless, hot-swappable leader modules as their favored candidates, all conceniently pre-programmed to tow the Corporatist Party line. They are the ones who have given us one party rule. In every way that matters, their allegiances are congruant with the Republicans. The only difference between the two is that until recently, they could not be as overt as the Republicans in displaying their loyalties.
Seems to me that if our own house isn't cleaned, even healed, nothing is going to change, and that in dealing with our own internal issues, we will be simulataneously begin an effective work of taking on the Republicans. Markos Moulitsas Zuniga is so nuts-on right about this being a new game and a new hope. Business-as-usual time is over.
As an aside, this should be another indicator of how important and precious net neutrality is. If he corporatists can take it away, they absolutely will do it.
Just my two cents' worth.
KABOOM!!
There went Harold Ford's head.
sam @ 87:
In other words, you can only hope there is a democratic, liberal wing of the liberal Central Intelligence Agency. There is but the effects are yet to be seen.
David Ehrenstein @ 75:
Markos is a lot more confident here than I've seen in previous national TV appearances, and he seemed to hit a home run on the main point here, which is (obviously):
No one, NOBODY, has their hands on the reigns of the netroots movement. Not Markos Moulitas Zuniga, not Jane Hamsher, not John Amato, not Arianna Huffington, not the CI freakin A. No individual nor any group of individuals is at the wheel, and no one needs to be because this baby is driving itself via the energy of the millions of people (like you) who interconnect with each other on these sites, share information, raise money, strategize, hash things out, write diaries, post, etc.
The fact that Fox News, O'Reilly, the DLC, and the corporate media are extremely bugged (and basically clueless) about this phenomenon is proof that it's working. Keep pushing!
[...] Update: You can watch the show here or here. [...]
As an afterthought, the counsel that the centrists provide reminds me of Krema Wormtongue whispering into the ears of Theodin, urging him to his ruin, down he path of least resistance. Perhaps our current day DNC/DLC/DCCC/DSCC is the kinf od thing that Tolkein had in mond when he created that character.
sam @ 94:
Look sam, before you get yourself in a lather about the CIA, try to grasp this rather simple concept: Whatever the personal politics of Markos might be they are totally irrelevant at this point in terms of where the DailyKos and the rest of the netroots movement is going. Sure, he's a convenient spokesperson to the MSM, but he is no more "leading" the netroots movement than you or Stop George or myself are "leading" this thread.
That's the most brilliant and radical thing about the internet: we don't need no stinkin' leaders.
[...] Update: You can watch the show here or here. [...]
Don't ask for "proof" LOOK FOR IT yourself, ever hear about google. My Left Wing has the link to his Common Wealth Club interview and guess what, he admitted on air, to "going all the way" in CIA training, during the beginning of Dean taking off .
But what's interesting, (read between the lines), if you play poker and are good at playing poker, you know how to read people, and the set up before the admission to the question, was geared to gain sympathy, " unemployed " (said 3 x), "you've all been there", ya and the first thing I did was to run down to the local CIA office, ya right. THEN Kos admits to going through the interview process, and meeting psychologists, and ops, who " were all liberals " then making the absurd comment, " the CIA is only interested in a stable world " . If you have read William Blum's investigation of the CIA, nothing can be further from the truth .
You add this to the censorship of 9-11 discussion, it equals to this Kos guy being a Trojan horse, to control the message and it shows this guy is a highly trained propagandist.
[...] Update: You can watch the show here or here. [...]
I hope Kos gets booked for more sunday shows. Really great work
[...] Update: You can watch the show here or here. [...]
Me @ 17:
he's already been on MTP. a few years back.
Wow. What a hatemonger! BillO really has it right. LOL.
Nice to see Kos get on TV and contrast his humility with the arrogance of most of the Sunday AM talking heads.
Ali@91.
You said,"I think this is the inherrent weakness for the liberal mind - i.e. the Democrats. They have so many ideas floating in their heads and see so many shades of gray that they have a really hard time settling on a focus point for issues. Whereas the narrow minded zealot has no problem zoning in on the only single point in his head. This makes the single minded thinker appear “strong.” Dems have so many ideas they have trouble agreeing how to get things done. Probably a dangerous weakness for all of us. I think this was one of John Kerry’s big weaknesses. It’s hard to appear decisive when you’re analyzing things from every angle and see so many possibilities."
This is true, very true. But as Plisko and Stop George have discussed or hinted at in their comments starting @64 and going through 88, there is a way through this dilemma. The passage through the wilderness is actually pretty clear. That passage is to be found in the principles that define us, and how well we live within them.
There is a key difference between Republicans/conservatives/neocons and the Democrats/liberals/progressives that makes all the difference in the world. The Republicans give much noisome lip-service to prinicipal. It is only lip service, though. In act and deed, they are a party guided solely by shifting expediencies of the day or the moment. They long ago abandoned all adherance to enduring principle of ethics, morality and humanity. They are now, in their deeply degraded state (if only they had the eyes to truthfully behold themselves) about only base and bruthish things like power, wealth and privilege. They chase from expedient to expedient in pusduit of their dark dreams, convincing themselves that those expedients are in reality, virtuous principles. Their unity is an easy thing to obtain, because so many of the expedients which they have embraced are mere vices like greed, power lust, the supreme selfishness of the animal and the like. Such things require nothing of their adherants other than merely letting go and giving in. It's easy to build unity and consensus if that is all that is required. But in choosing this path, they have doomed themselves to eventual obscurity and irrelevence, to the day when only the worst of society's thugs and criminals will find kinship with their "ideals".
On the other hand, the large part of Democrats, and the liberals/progressives still adhere and give deep value to enduring principle. It is those priniples which motivate them. What are those principles? That human dignity is a thing of precious worth, that people are capable of ruling themselves, that justice is a priceless thing beyond all compare, that the pursuit of happiness is still a legitimate human enterprise, that genuine virtues(honesty, generosity, fairness, strength of character, inclusiveness..the list is endless) are things of inestimable value...we all know what they are, if we only stop to think about them. Maybe we're suckers, but everyone of us believe in those things and are engaged, by whatever degree of strength and determination can be extracted from daily lving, in trying to live our lives in conformity with these prinicples. That belief shapes our thinking to such degree that our fidelity to our principles shapes how we judge ourselves. Our principles, in very large part, become the very standard by which we judge our own goodness and against which we measure our failures. They give voice to our collective conscience and lend it sufficient volume that we are able to hear and listen to the promptings of conscience. The principles that we have individually and collectively adopted also bestow upon us another peerless gift: a capacity for shame, which we can use to question our actions, learn from mistakes and guide ourselves anew. You know this is both truthful and accurate.
If it can be remembered that this is so, the task of leadership is no longer an impossible job a herding house cats. It is reduced to a much simpler and doable process of calling people to be true to the principles that we collectively share, of reminding those who have lost sight of what those priciples are to recall those principles, of calling to accounts and ruthlessly exposing those who have abandoned those principles, of forgiving those who return to principled behavior and of welcoming all who embrace those principles. To such degree that this happens, there will be unity. And to the degree that unity is fostered, there will be successes and a multiplication and spreading of well-being. It is actually very simple.
It is for this reason that the failure of the current leadership to successfully herd house cats is so blameworthy. Their first failure was to think that they are in the house cat herding business in the first place. That is forgivable. But, their second failure is not: This leadership has, as did their predecessors, purposefully abandoned principle and embraced transient expedients for base reasons: the accumulation of advantage, power or whatever that ill-serves the general well-being of all. This is how they ended up herding house cats in the first place. Similarly, it is for this same reason the DNC/DLC/DCCC/DSCC is so blameworthy. They, also, have consciously walked away from principle and embraced worthless, shifting expedients, chasing from one to the next, rudderless and clueless. Inevitably, they will fail, they have failed, they only can fail. There is no other possible outcome. That the shift in what they give there allegiance to - from principles to expedients - has always been, at its core, a matter of choice, only compounds their blameworthiness.
When we collectively recall our roots, which are made of our founding and uniting principles, we will know exactly what to do to remove the negligent and derilict stewards, what is needed to set things aright. And if we fail to do that, we will be - like the Republicans - walking a path that leads to extinction.
The netroots is a breath of hope that must be safegaurded with deep vigilance.
Just another two cents' worth,Ali@91.
You said,"I think this is the inherrent weakness for the liberal mind - i.e. the Democrats. They have so many ideas floating in their heads and see so many shades of gray that they have a really hard time settling on a focus point for issues. Whereas the narrow minded zealot has no problem zoning in on the only single point in his head. This makes the single minded thinker appear “strong.” Dems have so many ideas they have trouble agreeing how to get things done. Probably a dangerous weakness for all of us. I think this was one of John Kerry’s big weaknesses. It’s hard to appear decisive when you’re analyzing things from every angle and see so many possibilities."
This is true, very true. But as Plisko and Stop George have discussed or hinted at in their comments starting @64 and going through 88, there is a way through this dilemma. The passage through the wilderness is actually pretty clear. That passage is to be found in the principles that define us, and how well we live within them.
There is a key difference between Republicans/conservatives/neocons and the Democrats/liberals/progressives that makes all the difference in the world. The Republicans give much noisome lip-service to prinicipal. It is only lip service, though. In act and deed, they are a party guided solely by shifting expediencies of the day or the moment. They long ago abandoned all adherance to enduring principle of ethics, morality and humanity. They are now, in their deeply degraded state (if only they had the eyes to truthfully behold themselves) about only base and bruthish things like power, wealth and privilege. They chase from expedient to expedient in pusduit of their dark dreams, convincing themselves that those expedients are in reality, virtuous principles. Their unity is an easy thing to obtain, because so many of the expedients which they have embraced are mere vices like greed, power lust, the supreme selfishness of the animal and the like. Such things require nothing of their adherants other than merely letting go and giving in. It's easy to build unity and consensus if that is all that is required. But in choosing this path, they have doomed themselves to eventual obscurity and irrelevence, to the day when only the worst of society's thugs and criminals will find kinship with their "ideals".
On the other hand, the large part of Democrats, and the liberals/progressives still adhere and give deep value to enduring principle. It is those priniples which motivate them. What are those principles? That human dignity is a thing of precious worth, that people are capable of ruling themselves, that justice is a priceless thing beyond all compare, that the pursuit of happiness is still a legitimate human enterprise, that genuine virtues(honesty, generosity, fairness, strength of character, inclusiveness..the list is endless) are things of inestimable value...we all know what they are, if we only stop to think about them. Maybe we're suckers, but everyone of us believe in those things and are engaged, by whatever degree of strength and determination can be extracted from daily lving, in trying to live our lives in conformity with these prinicples. That belief shapes our thinking to such degree that our fidelity to our principles shapes how we judge ourselves. Our principles, in very large part, become the very standard by which we judge our own goodness and against which we measure our failures. They give voice to our collective conscience and lend it sufficient volume that we are able to hear and listen to the promptings of conscience. The principles that we have individually and collectively adopted also bestow upon us another peerless gift: a capacity for shame, which we can use to question our actions, learn from mistakes and guide ourselves anew. You know this is both truthful and accurate.
If it can be remembered that this is so, the task of leadership is no longer an impossible job a herding house cats. It is reduced to a much simpler and doable process of calling people to be true to the principles that we collectively share, of reminding those who have lost sight of what those priciples are to recall those principles, of calling to accounts and ruthlessly exposing those who have abandoned those principles, of forgiving those who return to principled behavior and of welcoming all who embrace those principles. To such degree that this happens, there will be unity. And to the degree that unity is fostered, there will be successes and a multiplication and spreading of well-being. It is actually very simple.
It is for this reason that the failure of the current leadership to successfully herd house cats is so blameworthy. Their first failure was to think that they are in the house cat herding business in the first place. That is forgivable. But, their second failure is not: This leadership has, as did their predecessors, purposefully abandoned principle and embraced transient expedients for base reasons: the accumulation of advantage, power or whatever that ill-serves the general well-being of all. This is how they ended up herding house cats in the first place. Similarly, it is for this same reason the DNC/DLC/DCCC/DSCC is so blameworthy. They, also, have consciously walked away from principle and embraced worthless, shifting expedients, chasing from one to the next, rudderless and clueless. Inevitably, they will fail, they have failed, they only can fail. There is no other possible outcome. That the shift in what they give there allegiance to - from principles to expedients - has always been, at its core, a matter of choice, only compounds their blameworthiness.
When we collectively recall our roots, which are made of our founding and uniting principles, we will know exactly what to do to remove the negligent and derilict stewards, what is needed to set things aright. And if we fail to do that, we will be - like the Republicans - walking a path that leads to extinction.
The netroots is a breath of hope that must be safegaurded with deep vigilance.
Just another two cents' worth,
Nice tie, Markos :)
Wow, it seems there is a concerted effort here to smear Markos by deliberately distorting his story about having applied for work at the CIA and never joining. I also find it interesting that the same people putting this forth completely ignored my post @56 concerning the link between the far right Bradley Foundation, corporate interests and the DLC. If one were really concerned about fighting the right wing, they would find that very interesting. It appears that trolls have successfully hijacked this thread and gotten it off focus from discussing the DLC to having to bat down a specious smear of a Liberal political activist.
I am a Conservative Republican voter, but frequently read this site to see what you guys are saying.
I am being totally completely sincerely honest when I say that I, too, hope the netroots, Markos, Kosians, etc. take control of the Democratic Party, and the DLC goes down down down.
This is something your side and mine can finally agree on.
We both want to see the rise and take-over/influence of the netroots on the Democratic party.
And I know that many Conservatives and Republicans read daily kos for the very same reason, many, many.
Brent @ 109:
*Snore*
BTW, thanks for confirming the troll attack! ;)
Brent @ 108:
You mean you want to see ordinary people back in the loop of political leadership rather than elites right? That would be a good thing for both parties.
Very classy, Markos. Sure puts turds like Billo in their place.
BTW: the movement is awesome and gives us all a little hope.
I like what Markos is doing and saying but he needs to find a better
spokesperson for Kos. He is the beginning but he needs to get a media
person that is a potential candidate himself.
What Dems & Repubs alike must realize is that their respective party leaders have sold out. Both parties' well entrenched leaders do not listen to their rank & file members. I have heard many long time Repubs grumble about how their party has been hijacked and no longer represents the principle that made them Repubs in the first place. there are plenty of Repubs who want their party to be the party on Lincoln & Eisenhower, and are willing to fight to regain control.
This is the Achilles of the Republican party, and Democrats often overlook this fact. We are not battling Republicans. We are battling the neocons & robber barons who have taken control of the Repub party.
This is the common ground for both parties- the desire to regain control of the party and make it represent the American people. Once rank & file disgruntled Repubs realize this (and they will, since they see the success of dailykos), they will organize on the net & rebel against the neocons that have taken over the party.
This is why the mainstream is trying its best to destroy any net roots leaders. And this is well evidenced by the trolls that are here trying to smear Kos. Note all of the Rovian tactics they use. And mainstream is terrified of the fact that the net has become the source of unfiltered information. With the net, the sheep cannot be herded, and news cannot be edited.
This is not a Repub / Dem issue. This is an issue of democracy, the return of the power to the people as the founding fathers intended America to be. This is the point Kos made so clearly, and why Kos is so dangerous to the controlling establishment. It isn't Kos, it is the growing power on the people channeled through dailykos, that is the true focus.
Boy, with all due respect, you guys are missing my point.
The reason I, as a Conservative Republican voter, want Netroots to take over the Democratic Party, and DNC go down, is quite simple. IT ASSURES A GOP VICTORY IN '08 (Does anyone remember George McGovern?)
Go Markos, go go go!!!
and Azureblue, if Kosians can help kill the mainstrem media, great!!!!!
(The MSM has been the greatest subsidy and support of the Democratic party, by far!)
Which, by the way, is precisely why I love, LOVE, L O V E, things like Crooks and Liars!!! I hope C&L gains more and more popularity and influence within the Democratic Party.
Brent @ 117:
Heh, I got your point. I'd no sooner take advice from you than I would from a two bit con man. The thing is, is that you are even less trustworthy. ;)
Snowball, I know and hope you and lib (I mean progressive) readers will NOT TAKE MY ADVICE, which is why I freely give it with no worry!
Brent @ 121:
Enjoy your long stay in the political wilderness. The Republic party is toast. :)
Manila Ryce @ 80:
What worries me is that liberals start voting for one of a dozen third parties, partially in protest, partially because those third parties represent liberal thought - but that way the liberal vote is split up. Meanwhile, Mitt Romney, Rudy Guiliani or Fred Thompson wins because the lockstep crowd votes Republican, not Libertarian or any other third party.
I got run off the Maine Green Party listserv in 2000 because I dared to suggest that Nader's candidacy was the best thing that could happen to Bush. I was right - of course the folks who ran me off feel righteous and remain in denial.
Hillary is a Southern Democrat - read conservative - just like Bill. I have no idea where Barack stands on issues. John Edwards may or may not be too conservative for my likes. Richardson has apparently po'ed a vocal Democratic constituency so he's been declared toast by the cogniscenti. Frankly, I don't care if my cat gets elected, as long as she is not a Republican. She stands her best chance if she's a Democrat - not a Friskies Socialist.
And I know Kos would not take advice either, because Kosian Netroots are more concerned with gaining power and control of the Democratic Party, than in winning elections. (Not that they are not concerned with elections, but that they are MORE concerned with gaining power and recognition.)
Right, C&L?
Snowball, you're either a very very clever troll, or are (in my opinion) less than informed.
@103, I no sooner get finished talking about the differences between conservatives and progressives, and what happens? A clueless conservative troll shows up and demonstrates those very differences. That's a valuable service the troll just performed.
Brent @ 125:
LOL, straight from the mouth of one of the 29% that still supports the Republic party. :)
Brent @ 126:
That's a laugh, feel free to come back when you get a clue.
We have one of those "(climatology and probably geological and evolutionary) science is a liberal conspiracy" types here, who's around to lecture us about being informed. Also the type of guy who would gamble his house trying to win back the car he lost in Vegas when everyone including his wife tries to get him to give it up - oh, sorry, he didn't lose, he's just waiting for that winning streak to kick in.
Should be interesting...
Wonder how long before his mom comes down to the basement to tell him to go to sleep?
[Deleted. Pathetic blogwhoring spam.]
Markos is CIA. Try opining on 911 truth or Israel and see how far you get. He is a gatekeeper and can't be trusted. Same goes for Lou Doobs.
Markos is an example of why we will probably have a Republican president
again. I saw this asshole on C-Span & he reminded me of the so called
liberals who when push comes to shove reveal their conservative self.
The Kos is a piece of crap blog & it's loaded with Republicans like Markos.
O-well. Another Republican in the White House & you guys will start whining
while that grinning jackass Markos & the Daily Kos will pretend they are liberals.
I hate this fucking little blowhard.
Brent @ 110:
Mike @ 134:
Markos is fishy to me...Beating on the dems, when the rest of the country is doing that, is not helping the overall cause.
I understand about keeping your own home in order, but he feeds into the "bash dems" collective.
NO THANKS. I haven't visited his website in a long time.
Crooks & Liars is the best there is.
The spew that Brent is pushing is exactly what the DLC has bought up. It's the garbage that comes out of Billo's mouth when he says that well spoken liberal are "loony" and "marginal." Meanwhile, every pole continues to show that it's opinions like Brent's that are actually marginal.
How anyone could ever accept the notion that sticking to their principles is somehow harmful to their political chances is beyond me. The DLC is just as bought and corrupt as the Neocons, they're just bought for less. There's no sense fighting to get the "right" party elected just to find it's been infested with the same elements of greed and corruption.
But you're right, Brent. GOP is guaranteed victory in '08. That's why you need to desperately troll around a Liberal blog. The fact that you can pick up a newspaper and remain smug points to either severe delusion or the more likely case: you know you're wrong.
Plisko @ 114:
I would like to correct the above comment. In response to the comment that the netroots was/is 'ordinary people', I wrote:
"Ordinary people? The netroots of the Left is almost all white and middle class."
My apologies for the confusion.
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