August 17, 2007 04:03 PM
A Question for the Democratic Party
Kathy G discusses the Republican framing of Democratic candidates and asks:
It leaves me with a question, though: why aren't Democrats doing more to aggressively discredit the Republican candidates? It's essential that we shape the negative narratives about those bozos right now, before it's too late. Yet none of the operatives on our side seem to be doing that. Why is it that the Republicans always seem to be thinking and planning at least three steps ahead of the Democrats?...read on
We're not talking about Swiftboating, just pointing out the obvious.
That's easy -- they're discrediting themselves. Take Rudy for instance........
I dont support a democratic politburo either. We need to fix the system, not just learn to use the broken system like the fascists.
Well here's an example of the Democrats being a few steps ahead of the repukes, but its in the wrong direction, giving broader spying powers than even Bush wanted.
Maybe all the dems need to do is start saying "it's the constitution stupid"
More than anything, I think this is an indication of the Democrats complicity in the denigration of democracy. We have no choice but to vote for them, but I don't trust them. I don't see them coming out swinging for the average American.
And HERE'S THE ‘HYPOTHETICAL’ WE’D REALLY LIKE TO SEE THE GOP CANDIDATES ANSWER
Maybe if the Dems got one of those hi-tech spy satellites we would have something of a chance...
Geesh...
The Democrats play nice to death. They already failed to do anything to stop Bush, and even kissed up to him most of the time.
Why stoop to their level? If you have the advantage as the Dems do now, why not try to run a more elevated campaign and take the high ground. Seems to me that with politics being as divided as they are now it makes more sense to try and run with less mud slinging.
The dems are beholding to the same people the pubs are. I expect nothing good from either party and I am never disappointed.
The right wing propaganda machine controls what you see on TV and most of what is in the papers, the democrats don't have a voice. The repugnacans tell a lie and it gets discredited on the progressive blogs but really, only progressives read them so they get away with the lie. They have proven themselves to be fiscally irresponsible and morally bankrupt but still a large number of people will still vote for them. Maybe that's because Americans have become fiscally irresponsible and morally bankrupt. the only thing that matters is having more than someone else. Just look around you. America is sick with greed and greed is a basic staple of the repugnacan party.
Pointing out problems with and history of the Repub candidates should be considered an educational duty to let people know that who they may be voting for is not the good competent person they think he/she is. "Why stoop to their level" and "take the high ground" have been the tactics of the Dem congresscritters for the last 10 years. How is that working out for us?
You are on to something.
The republicans have been laying down the attadk foundations of their potential opponents in the Presidential race.
Mainly with the big three-Hillary, Edwards and Obama.
Examples;
Hillary's cleavage
Obama's inexperience
Edward's haircuts, wealth, and evil lawyersways.
These are trial ballons and building blocks for their attacks.
This is why the Repibs only debate Abortion, Religion, and 9/11.
They are not talking substance to reduce opposition. You have to admit that the cons haven't much else to run on and after all, Abortion, tax cuts, 9/11 and religion is all their base's uncurious minds wants and needs to know. But the Dems are out front on the issues.
And when your out front, Criticiism from opposition sitting on the couch is easy and less self damage inflicting. Yet hardly leadership.
Just listen to any right wing media. Everyday they sling the propaganda fundamental blocks to attack with. Where is the Dems operatives? Too busy on the issues I perhaps.
Don Davis @ 6:
Man, THAT is a good question Don.....Now if we can just get someone to pose that question in a Debate Forum...
The more I witness the Democrats vs. the Republicans, the more it reminds me of Coke vs. Pepsi : same thing with a slight variance in taste . Even though there are other choices out there, people are brainwashed that you're either "Coke" or "Pepsi" . Anything different and you're deemed odd . Why, in a country that extols variety and freedom of choice , has there been for over 200 years only two choices of party to govern ?
Gee....the ReThugs are getting ready to smear Democratic candidates. What a surprise! I disagree with Klein about one candidate: John Edwards. He has consistently framed his responses on many issues with an eye to future ReThug attacks.
But no one wants to point this out, just as 'they' don't want to discuss the fact that Edwards is the only Democratic candidate whom polls show beat ALL ReThugs, because....
He is a progressive candidate and the 'Democrat' Party insiders are scared shitless of his campaign. Much better to have lobbyist loving Hillary or All Hat No Cattle Obama as the candidate so the Party can lose once again.
Of course it's not just the 'Demcrat' Party 'insiders' it's also the 'leadership' who are frightened of winning because then they might have to fix the mess they've allowed the ReThugs to create.
Why aren't the Democrats doing more to discredit the Right? There is PLENTY of time for that. This is the lock 'n load phase of the campaign to build the case against the repub's - hold you hand, and lock 'n load!
It's a good point. My wife, who listens to me rant all the time said, "Its okay of Rudy were elected. I'd feel okay with him, if it couldn't be a democrat." I rattled off a few tidbits and she did an about face on that sentiment". The point is that idea of Rudy being "America's Mayor" is almost a meme now, and will be much more difficult to knock down later if it goes unchallenged now.
The do nothing Democrats is why I am so tired of the democratic party. The only one who is not in the pocket of big business and is standing up to the Republicans is Dennis Kucinich. Will he get the nomination? Most likely not because he is at a financial disadvantage. He is not owned by big business and he doesn't look like a movie star. We need to get together and support him. Show him that as democrats we want someone who has the balls to stand up to big business and the criminals in our government.
If he doesn't get the nomination I will look outside the major parties for someone to give my vote to. None of our front runners is interested in doing anything about the mess we are in. Sure they will point fingers at one another but talk is cheap. Just look at the last two times Bush said he would call them back from their break if they didn't pass his bill and they rubber-stamped his bill. This party is such a disappointment! They don't deserve our support.
It's not the Democratic way. Take for example how Clinton (Bill) has been defined by the reich wing because to this day he his bashed by the GOP and their supporters even though Clinton left this nation a legacy of record prosperity and peace that the current mistake in the Oval Office has snice squandered. Clinton has been defined by the Reich wing. Whereas the Democrats never bash (remind voters) the Republican god, Mr.Iran-Contra-Star-Wars Reagan, left a legacy of record deficits that Clinton helped to erase and what a charlatan Reagan was. This is why when Americans are polled Reagan ranks higher than Clinton because we have allowed them to define Reagan as god unchallenged while they continue to bash Bill Clinton to this day.
This is our future because it has been our past unless we change it so yes, define them as the true Republican hacks they are now.
As usual, the democrats are playing not to lose...
You can't beat these guys that way. You can't wait for THEM to lose. You have to BEAT them into the ground.
And despite all the whining about negative campaigning, most research show that it works.
One thing that doesn't work is wimpiness. The people that vote don't respect wimps. Whether that is the best of all possible worlds is irrelevant.
Dems just don't get that. People like Paul Hackett, who wouldn't take any shit, inspire people.
The one I want to see more of is when they point out that during the "I'll keep you safe guys", over 3,000 American citizens lost their lives on 9/11 and who was the President? BUSH! The White House lied to Congress and the world when they declared Saddam was a threat to us and had WMD's and needed a regime change. Who started a war that turned into an occupation with no seeming end, and to day over 3,700 American soldiers have lost their lives? BUSH! Who left the people in New Orleans stranded in the wake of Katrina and has not rebuilt New Orleans or taken care of the people that will never be able to move back into their homes? BUSH! Who approved of torture of our prisoners of war contrary to the Geneva Conventions? BUSH! Who has inserted unqualified people to head various departments in our government (ie; the mine safety man who owns his own unsafe coal mine, Brownie in charge of FEMA, and I could go on an on on this one). Who appointed a liar to be our Attorney General? BUSH!
Charles @ 21:
Your comment about Paul Hackett was , perhaps, more inspired than you realize. :)
they don't give a shit?
Because we make the mistake of believing that the obvious is obvious to everyone. However, if the media can't see the obvious, then maybe we are expecting too much of people who don't pay that much attention to politics or politicians until it comes time to vote again.
Charles @ 21:
Yes, look not further than Montana and Virginia for proof of that. Jon Tester and Jim Webb, not exactly weaked kneeded wusses, both Democrats who pulled upsets against INCUMBENTS in REPUBLICAN LEANING STATES. Having principles AND the courage, strength and the balls to stand up to Republican bullies is what voters want. Principles without courage (prominent with so many in the Democratic party) ain't enough.
The Democrats have cleverly found a way to have time and energy that was once reserved for discrediting repubs, now directed at keeping them in line. If Democrats keep up passing bad bills under the disguise of "Blue Dog", Repubs will win the presidency in '08, because once again us Dems will find ourselves having to constantly go after our own Dems on these issues which does not look good for the party especially if we are trying to pick up some Repub votes in '08.
The Democrats play nice to death. They already failed to do anything to stop Bush, and even kissed up to him most of the time.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________
The Democrats need to do nothing. The Republicans discredit themselve on a daily basis. If the Republicans win again in 2008, that will prove that the nation is comprised of nothing but a lot of cretins, or the Republicans are good at rigging elections.
Impeachment! The nation is plagued with problems. We need solutions. Impeachment is not a solution. It's a very expensive and lethal distraction. Karma! Bush and his minions, will pay dearly for what they've done to America. You can count on it.
Remember these words.
Because we aren't like them.
But here's a pragmatic reason: If we hammer the GOP Presidential candidates now, it will not affect the votes of the
rottencore that votes in the primaries, and by next year, all that slime will be "old news."Because 25 years ago Republicans enacted a secret plan to have undercover agents run as Democrats. Slowly working their way up the US political system these are the very people installed in the top echelons of our government. Promising to fight for the common man but rarely actually doing so, save for the occasional bread crumb tossed out to keep their cover safe.
Sounds far-fetched at first but really seems to be the only way to explain the shortcomings the modern Democratic party
I wouldn't bring up the Repubs' obvious flaws either... Most people haven't really started looking at the candidates too closely. Just let them choose Rudy... it'll be hilarious when people in South Carolina and Mississippi find out who he really is... or when they find out that Romney was "the Mormon guy" that everyone was talking about... or McCain's (can I still count him as a front-runner?) stance on immigration. Let them choose from this obviously flawed crop then sink their boat. If we shoot them down now, they might end up with the evolution-denying Huckabee; which we could point to now as a flaw, but would actually galvanize their support for him.
They're too busy jockeying for position against each other to notice the other side.
spero@30
Excellent point! Which bring me to the question...who was the dumm ass mothefucker who designed a defective ballot in Florida and gave 19.000 votes to Buchanan? That action was never question by the Democrats. Maybe, somebody who knows something about it can elaborate about what really happened!
Who cares what Rudy or Romney say? No Republican has a chance in hell. The Neocon candidates that we need to discredit before they take control of the White House are running as Democrats. We ought to be fighting against all corporate warmongers, regardless of party.
Democrats are pussies.
Republicans are bullies.
This is sad but its the same old high school song...The cheerleaders and athletes seem to own the stage while promising intelligent children are forced to sit in the bleachers at homecoming games and eat crow.
Its an early education (or an awful recollection) of how this country works.
We all buy it...every day.
Right wingers are attacking the Dems for things Americans don't care about, so what if Edwards spent too much money on a haircut and Hillary has cleavage (well, dah, she is the only female candidate, so I should expect that. Oh I forgot Rudy dresses in drag, so that might not necessarily be true.). The Dems line should be that the Republicans are not attacking their policy, because The Dems policy is on the side of Americans. Our policy is the policy that America needs to move forward as a nation.
The Repugs have been successful at uniting against the Democratic Party while the Democratic party fights among themselves.
Will there be more attacks from right wingers of course, and will those attacks be attacking policy? I doubt it. Democrats, please have some spine.ff
I vote for nenabeans' idea (#4) big time! It is indeed the Constitution and using that phrase would be an excellent idea.
►Runs-With-Dog◄ @ 14:
Just get me a Britt Hume mask, and I'll do it myself!
Ruthless People @ 26:
those guys have proven to be repubs in sheeps clothing!
obama 2008
I hate to say it but I truly think that the way the Dem party is being run, getting pissed on by the pubes at every turn, and not fighting back, is an indication that they are complicit in what the pubes are attempting to do to this country. It seems like almost none of the dems have the guts to stand up for themselves. It's like I used to tell my kids, if some school yard bully starts picking on you, punch the kid in the mouth just as hard as you can. You may get the shit kicked out of you, but that sob will think twice the next time because he KNOWS you will fight back. A lesson the dems can't seem to learn..........
john @ 35:
john @ 35:
We certainly know what happens when you get a former cheerleader in the Whitehouse. George gets out his megaphone every day chanting the same old trite phrases to rally his team, and there is a certain segment of the population that will join in and follow along. Just repeat the chant, then sing the song, no thinking required.
Oh, I wouldn't count the Dems out of a good ad or two in the near future. Just listing the crimes and misdemeanors might take several well-placed ads closer to the Primary. Meantime, just read these blogs for the real political stories. MSM is pathetic and bought by the corporations to skip bad news about this administration.
The problem with the Democratic Party is that they still want the corruption train to keep going but get rid of the Republicans in office. The corruption that currently permeates all of politics is what enables the Republican Party, without it the Republicans would all but vanish. Until the Democrats go after the things that enable the Republicans (namely campaign financing), they'll never win. Sure they'll make inroads now and again, but the Republicans will always come back.
I agree the Democratic Party needs to more aggressive...but without swiftboating..Like #4's idea.
But it kinda looks like the Republican candidates are doing a pretty good job of discrediting themselves.
The whole premise of the GOP, the Cheney/Rove/Bush Administration is based on their belief "We the People are Stupid". What they are discovering is it is only about 25 to 30% of "The People" that are stupid..
At this point I don't plan to support any Democratic candidates. Why waste my time and money on a Party that won't take even the minimal attempt at winning? Republicans will take the Presidency, Senate, House, and Supreme Court on Nov. 2008.
I belong to a democratic blog where most of the posters spend more time tearing down the democrats than they do the republicans. It is sickening. They want Obama to be the candidate you can almost see the venom in their posts about the others.
Eleanor Clift laid out the perfect game plan for Republican framing.
Forget about their position on abortion, instead ask:
1. How do you stand on the dispensing of the "morning after" pill?
2. What are your thoughts on hospital emergency personnel and police informing about and/or supplying the morning after pill to victims of rape or incest?
The Republics are struggling to win 50% + 1 vote of the 27% of Americans who think George WMD Bush is "doing a good job."
Let 'em fight it out for that magic 13.5% (+1 vote).
Any of the Democrats (well, maybe not Gravel) should be expected to kick ass against any of the Republic Party hopefuls. It kinda makes sense to keep your powder dry as the GOP keeps digging itself into a hole.
Whomever wins the GOP nomination is gonna have to do a one-eighty against Shrub's Iraq strategy in order to remain in the race. Romney's got more experience at flip-flopping, so he might have an edge. Now *there's* an issue!
An equally intriguing question is: Why do all of the Democrat pundits/talking heads
come across like milquetoast and all their Republican adversaries come off as tigers?
On this past Friday's edition of the Chris Mathews program, Hardball, Melaine Morgan
just growled it all over sweet little Naomi Wolf and regardless of the words each used
the perception, at least to this viewer, was that Morgan won the "debate" - if you can
call it a debate.
At any rate - it's time to drop the Mr. Nice Guy/Gal persona and start kicking some
Repuglican ass and doing it like we meant it. No wonder there's a perception that
the Democrats are weak on defense.
IT all seems straight forward to me. Why spend the energy and time attacking your GOP opponents when you need to be focused on getting the democratic nomination and appearing as the “best” democrat.
After the nominations then you will see democrats attacking republicans vying for votes.
We're not talking about Swiftboating? Maybe not, but we're talking about ratfucking, a la Nixon. The Dems have had their lunch money stolen for years. Find out the Vitterisms of each candidate, publicize, repeat. Show them no quarter. After the last 6.5 years, we have to get down and dirty and ratfuck them. The Republicans must NEVER rise again. Think back on our country since 2000, and repeat after me - DESTROY.
blogenfreude @ 51:
Agreed, and I am still waiting and waiting and waiting for Larry Flynt to publish/release the names of the
30 Repigs(Flynt's figure used on the Larry King show) who he has allegedly confirmed visited one or more
cat houses in the D.C. Regions..and in fact, as I recall in his interview, he said..." And I am shocked
at the name of one of the U.S. Senators on the list.." I had hopes Flynt really had some more dirty
laundry on the Repigs that he would release publically(..drip, drip, drip or all at one time as he
said he would w/respect to the 30 individuals), however, it has been 52 days since he appeared on
TV making such statments and yet NOTHING.
Ghouliani's more hated by 9/11 families and New Yorkers in general than Kerry was by any neo-con fascist clan, so it shouldn't be hard too swiftboat Rudy, especially with all that weird video out there.
McCain's already retired from politics, he just doesn't know it yet.
Thompson isn't even serious.
The only one you gotta worry about is Mitt Romney. And all you have to do is keep hitting on his Mormonism. Explain his actual beliefs. This country (and the world) seems kind of fed up with religious delusions of grandeur, so work with that. Don't worry, most Christians agree Mormons are flakes, you won't be perceived as anti-religious for merely illustrating what these people believe.
One other thing, David Vitter's a real party pooper. Make sure your neighborhood neocons all remember that little bit of U.S. history.
Karl Bauer @ 53:
I live in NYC, and we remember when Ghouliani was running around trying to close down art exhibits he didn't like. He's the first to be destroyed.
The answer to the question "why aren’t Democrats doing more to aggressively discredit the Republican candidates?" is best illustrated by this chart:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/08/15/open-thread-563/
Amazing how the "mainstream" are all in the same bloody pool. Does that answer the question?
I was wondering that too and even wrote the DNC why they didn't challenge Bush when he said if we don't fight them over there (Iraq) then they will follow us here. Not one Democrat said anything so people just think it must be true. The same people (53%) who thought Saddam caused 9/11 because Bush went unchallenged with his lies.
kaT @ 5:
This is because the DLC members are not real Democrats. Everyone please listen. We have an enemy within. DLC democrats like Clinton, etc... are like traditional Republicans whereas the Republicans themselves have moved right into fascism. We need BALANCE and we need to bring back traditional Democrats to office. DLC dems do not want to impeach Bush - who is the ARCHETYPICAL example of a president that truly deserves impeachment.
In summary, we need to bring a stop to having two choices: BAD and WORSE. We need GREAT.
Check out Kucinich. He never voted for the war, is a seasoned congressman, etc... At least vote for him in the primary and if he doesn't make it, we can vote for another Dem.
This question absolutely has to be addressed. what is it with the democratic party when the indiscretions of the repubs are so obvious and yet the dems choose to sidestep or hit them with cotton gloves. each one of our elected dems needs to speak out and call them what they are. hell, i'm kidding myself, the dems have turned into the do nothing party. they are so afraid of alienating that they do nothing.
Enja @ 56:
great point. all this time i've been beating myself for going along with the war, based on what the bush admin fed us. it was the iraquies who were directly responsible for 911. WRONG. we know better now and the reason we didn't know better then was because those same dems who knew better elected to say nothing and they in effect gave the bush crime family a free pass to perpetrate a truly unjust war.
after what happened to John Kerry...their scared.it's the only rational answer.they have to get over that RIGHT NOW(who am I kidding)"Stomp them out ,neutralize them"
If I had to bet on why they haven't decided to "frame" the Republican candidates yet, I would say that it's down to complacency.
They're probably thinking: a Democrat's going to win the Presidency, it's just a question of *which* Democrat so they're spending time trying to differentiate themselves from each other. Meanwhile, the Republican candidates, before they can even gain any votes outside their core base, have to give the electorate a reason NOT to vote Democrat so they have to split their time between differentiating themselves from Democratic Party candidates *and* other Republican candidates.
The Democratic candidates have probably decided not to expend their energy on the opposition when a number of the Republicans are probably going to self-destruct before the year's out.
That's arrogant and complacent on the Democrats' part but that's my best guess at the psychology going on here. Every minute that Democrats *aren't* framing the opposition is an extra minute that Rove has to hatch another Swift Boat plan.
So how about calling up the Green Party and ask them to vote Dem this time around. Maybe invite them in to the Dem. Party. They need to take a good look at the Republican presidential candidate, when they vote green. So they will know who they are helping this election......................
I always say I never want the Democratic party to act like the Repug's and I am glad they don't, but this article is exactly right, calling a spade a spade is not dirty pool. The Dem's need to get their act together, and I would also say we have to get our act together, because the Republican party doesn't win elections on their own, they win because people on the right are willing to gather all the nutz and freaks and get them to vote. Now I'm not saying we need to get the nutz and freaks to vote our way, I don't think that will ever happen but if we could motivate the Democratic base to show up in force to vote then we would win 100% of the time, it's not the dirty tricks the republicans play it's the fact that they can get more people to the polls and we could too but it takes leadership to show people that there is someone worth voting for and it take public support not to say "I don't feel comfortable voting for this guy or that guy" but instead to see that America needs saving and the only way to save America is to make sure the Republicans no longer have any power.
You opened the door for me to blast in and tell you some to the reasons why.
1. The Democrats can't or won't do anything with this right wing media that is controlling the message and
when you own operate and control the media, you can control the voice and these people are scripted
before they hit the air waves. They are told that they can only stick to certain topics that are already
laid out for them. It is not a free for all as many may think and our Democratic brothers and sisters do
not have the guts to stray from what they are told by these people.
2. Most all Democrats that you see or hear in media are the DLC or Blue Dog, gang that are in agreement
these right wing thugs. You all listened to Harold Ford last week and you see what they have made of
him. What more could you ask of these people, unless you are Congresswomen Maxine Waters, or Barbara
Lee or a few others . You get what you see.
3. On a fair note, it is simply dangerous to speak your mind in media today. They will twist your words to make them be what ever the right wing said you said or meant and you have few that are able to defend you against them.
I blame the democrats for not going after these media thugs and get some balance in our media and they should have seen this with the 2004 election and how they did Governor Dean, Senator Kerry and all the rest of the Democrats running for office and they are charging up to pull the same shit in the 2008 election.
They are not going to share the media with the liberal voice because it is currently the republican hold card of staying in power and all who cannot see this is blind.
They are going to shut down the voices of democrats and choose our candidate for us, just like they are now doing. There will be one lonely voice with a bunch of skeletons in her closet for them to attack, which is why she is the chosen one that they feel will be the easiest to completely tear apart.
We have an array of intelligent people running on the democratic ticket and they need to shut them down and keep the one they know they have the goods on.
Like it or not, these are just a few of the reasons why we are in serious trouble today.
Dahgrostab'ph-r-i @ 63:
Hmmmm, don't confuse the fact that Bush was 'elected' with "getting more votes". As far as I can tell, he did not get more votes in either presidential election. Florida was rigged with the SCOTUS and even the united nations wouldn't certify Ohio the second time around.....
Webb didn't defeat Allen - Allen defeated Allen. It was the Democratic tracker - the man who shot the footage and was the target of Allen's videotaped bigotry - who was the tool that turned a Virginia fuschia istead of Chinese Red ;-)
Use trackers and researchers - point out every gaffe, every inconsistency, every fart at the dinner table - and bring them up at debates, news conferences. Use the web - the MSM won't do it, they're terrified of being labeled unpatriotic. Why do you think Fozzie - er Susan Collins - is having a cow about a tracker following her? She's terrified of her own macaca moment. Knowing Collins, it won't be racist because she isn't, it'll be a totally clueless comment about 90% of her constituents. Like most Republicans, she doesn't understand that most of us don't live in Falmouth Foreside or Kennebunkport - that middle class people don't earn a quarter mil a year.
We must turn their own words, their own actions against them by shining the light of day on them. We can't count on Russert or Tweety to do it - they won't until they have to because it's a "big story." It's going to take YouTube and other high profile sites, ones without a liberal label, to turn a dumb mistake into a "tipping point."
fwacbar @ 65:
In fact, I would not even use "elected". In 2000 he was "annointed/selected" by the S/C and in 2004
he was again "selected" due to voter fraud in Ohio. In my opinion, he has NEVER been elected.
Marge @ 46:
got that right , some on here too, doggyboo boo and inca dinka do!
In the case of Al Franken because he said repeatedly on his show that he wants to debate the issues instead of stooping to their tactics. Another reason why Coleman will take him if Franken is nominated.
In fact, voters do look at ad hominem attacks and if you look at the Swift Boaters, they don't have to have any substance. Perhaps it takes a knack. Republicans proved they can't tell a joke with the Half Hour Comedy Hour. Democrats can't tell a decent ad hominem slur.
Doggiebobo @ 67:
no shit sherlock tell us someting that aint been said a thousand times on here jesus!
What Straight Shooter @ 66 wrote, and define what Dem leadership is and abilities to benefit all. Never allow the opposition (re)define you.
the truth is the republican party picks the front runners in the democrat party, obamma clinton both bought and paid for and they have a ton of bullshit on them for blackmail should they let them win , or they will get the voters so pissed off with lies or half truths and turn enough of the people against them and get one of their crappy candidates elected barring that they will just rig the elections again with dian fienstens help,
tyree @ 68:
Sitemonitor: If Tyree continues to attack me in such a manner as above, and refuses to accept my
apology(as expressed in an earlier C&L thread...being my #83 in the article pertaining to how the Pentagon
was ripped off by a plumbing firm to the tune of $1million), then is it time for him to be considered as nothing
more than a trouble maker and perhaps his subsequent comments need to be monitored more closely. I have
truly attempted to resolve our differences in views/opinions, however, it is evident by his most recent
comments above, that he is not in the mood or frame of mind to accept. You certainly, I hope, have
access to ALL of my C&L postings over the past 4 plus months...and likewise those of Tyree, so you
have my permission to go back, for the record, and see which one of us is attempting to stay on topic
and give meaningful feedback and who is not. Thanks for your attention...
Doggiebobo @ 73:
thats very decent of you doggy , not to shabby , sorry i didnt read your appoligy , i must point out to you that you and the inca do insulted me for no good reason other then your just a dickbroke old grouch , but now ive become a fan of yours of course if you say anything worth listening to that i havent said on her over the yrs im all ears , its sad when you have to attack another lib just because he believes something you dont, how ever if your really sorry you were a prick to me then i accept your appoligy , lets just call it even ,your a swell guy !
So where is the democratic version of the republican slime machine?
I know, I understand politics and campaigns. Will we ever move past this.
I want to vote FOR someone not vote against someone.............................
There are other ways to handle this sliming machine of the Republicans.
Or do you want tofight on the playground some more? That is the conservatives turff. Make them come to us not we to them.................
You know, what is obvious to us is not obvious to the average American citizen. The media does not do it's job well in disseminating information of substance on the Repub candidates - particularly any type of negative information. So when people on this site come to the conclusion that the Repubs misdeeds will be their own undoing, that only applies if the media reports it well, and they have not been.
So since the media doesn't do it's job, let the campaigners do it for them. Let's see the Dems have commercials placed on t.v. pointing out all the corruption, lies and misdeeds the Repubs and their candidates have committed.
The Dems don't kick their butts because they are gutless losers. Pure and simple. Now, they also happen to be kind hearted decent fairminded people (compared to republicans) but they are gutless losers. Republicans? They kill people outside the village. Democrats? Eat their own children.
It's just a fact. We're faced with a two headed beast, and they two heads don't really get along and argue and fight all the time.
But the body walks in one direction, and it's ambling directly towards a cliff.
Me? I left the country. I'll watch it walk over the clif from a distance. Die stupid people. Die.
Here. I have some PUSH-POLLING suggestions for Democratic Party voter-mailers:
For possible Republican voters in Utah and Arizona:
"Would you vote for Rudy G. if you knew that he raped his son with frequent violent anal sex violations... and actually spray-painted his second wife's personal cell phone number on the walls of restrooms in lesbian dance clubs while performing in DRAG during his courtship of his third wife-to-be...?"
For Mitt Romney supporters in Iowa:
"Would you vote for Mitt Romney if you knew that two of his "sister-wives" are actually thirteen and fourteen years old... and were purchased by campaign funds from Mitt-For-President ralley organizers in Colorado City, Arizona?"
For Fred Thompson supporters in Florida:
"Would you vote for Fred Thompson if you knew that he has been engaged in a twenty-five-year homo-sexual relationship with Fidel Castro... and as a result of that affair gets all his Cubanos FOR FREE, rolled on the thighs of sweating virgins, and shipped personally by Fidel and Raul, from clandestine destinations inside Cuba?"
I'm not going to "do" McCain... because he was "done" by KKKarl Rove in South Caroina in 2000... and he just does not deserve another one.
For the best answer yet to this question visit two great interviews by Matt Renner with George Lakeoff:
http://truthout.org/docs_2006/081507A.shtml
Send this to any and all Bluedogs and everyone else. Lakeoff is superb.
Curtilingus @ 3:
That's simply not true. The Dem vote nay on that bill was 5/6 in the House, and 2/3 in the Senate, with all the leadership voting nay. The preceding evening, the House voted down the House Dem interim bill, which gave none of this candy to Bush.
• The underreported fact is that the Dems have been working on a top-to-bottom FISA rewrite for months.
FISA has never worked, and does not now work, with or without the interim bills. FISA was an attempted solution to Cointelpro, but as such was mainly designed to prevent unwarranted FBI invasion of privacy that was used to quell political opposition to the Contras. Anti-terrorism investigation was not a direct target of FISA (TMK). And the FISA court has rubberstamped almost everything put in front of it.
One has to wonder why reporting on these Democratic efforts to generate a better law has been so poor. But then, Dem bashing is a good substitute to actual political work toward progressive goals, so it helps if the Dems can be blamed for 1) an interim bill they did not write or vote for, 2) which sunsets in six months and provides no cover for past illegal activities. It is also helpful if no one mentions the Speaker's letter to Chairmen Conyers and Reyes immediately after that vote, asking them to ramp up the new FISA bill to early September. And certainly one must avoid noticing the many committee hearings into FISA violations and the issue in general, leading up to that new bill.
Everything just comes out of the forehead of the pure, without any work to be done. Which is good, since they are habitually incapable of electing ANY officials to accomplish what they believe in. It's a program of overripe tomatoes, rather than an effort to organize actual election of qualified leftists.
tweakerbell @ 77:
Cowards who come here to express their bigotry anonymously. Just what exactly makes you think that's honorable? Oh wait, you didn't say your actions or views are honorable. You just want to gloat over those beneath you, to make yourself feel better.
A CEO mentality if there ever was one.
no longer a proud american @ 59:
YOU voted for the war. Rep. Pelosi, and sixty percent of House Dems voted NAY.
Try to keep those facts in your head.
ANYONE who wanted to know Bush was FOS only had to look. I never trusted him, never thought he might be right, never believed his lies, and long before Fall 2002 anyone who wanted to know knew that Bush was LYING.
So now you want to remove your shame by blaming the Democrats? HILARIOUS.
Pelosi is Speaker BECAUSE she led the House Dems against that evil Iraq Resolution. She wasn't fooled then, and she isn't fooled now. Six times the House has passed language barring permanent bases in Iraq, and barring US special treatment over Iraqi oil. Three times Bush has now signed that language. And, it now seems, that effort to leave bases in a former-Iraq hellhole WILL fail, as it should.
And even with all the bs and supposed inaction by Dems, Senator Kerry WON his election -- swiftboaters or no swiftboaters.
So try to keep in mind that YOU were fooled. You don't get to shift your bad feelings about that onto the House Dems who weren't.
Re: It leaves me with a question, though: why aren’t Democrats doing more to aggressively discredit the Republican candidates? It’s essential that we shape the negative narratives about those bozos right now, before it’s too late. Yet none of the operatives on our side seem to be doing that. Why is it that the Republicans always seem to be thinking and planning at least three steps ahead of the Democrats?
Because the Dems are pus***s, that's why.
"...why aren’t Democrats doing more to aggressively discredit the Republican candidates?" That's easy. Because they're too fucking stupid.
Otay @ 76:
spero @ 30:
myiq2xu @ 29:
edgar @ 10:
These are my favorite quotes from this thread. ---
Republicans and Democrats, conservatives and liberals. ALL CURSE WORDS. at least in terms of 'office holding' politics. Your debate has been framed for so long, along these lines, that people no longer recognize what the boundaries of these things were in the past as opposed to now. Historically, what republicans stood for once is what Democrats were a few years back. What Democrats are right now has switched polarities twice (that I can recall from history) as well! And both of those semi-recent former positions are NOTHING like what the viewpoints are now, in motion (as opposed to in theory, discussion, and debate).
Wake up. Office bearing democrats are not the democrats you learned about in high school, nor are the republicans. But you remain loyal to brand names, and they know this. We technically have independents as our '3rd party' but running in action this party does not have enough mass to be considered statistically viable AT ALL. so you choose between democrat and Republican, whatever that really means (again, as opposed to what they claim to be, or promise to act like). You want to see them change? ABANDON THEM BOTH. en masse.
You all talk about courage like it's something only to be won like spoils on a battlefield, like it's something outside of yourself, or something that any of these spineless liars (and lairs-of-ommission in dems.) can spontaneously pull from their asses because you assume that they want to find it. But my question to you is: do you have any idea what it is to have enough of your OWN courage when the time truly comes? When push comes to shove, when it's not just your keyboard versus the amorphous 'conservatives', but the People versus the Governmental Machine (as separate idea from the Government)? Will you have the courage to vote for someone you don't like at all, or don't know at all, just because the true battlefield is in YOUR mind and the opposition is actually your own senseless loyalty borne out of mind control and consumerist laziness - a la, my favorite brand is off the shelf, so I'll just grab the next most famous brand name with pretty colors?
If you did, and if you had the TRUE COURAGE to talk to someone you have never met and tell them, one person per day, that BOTH parties are fuct and that they only way for you to force THEM to do what YOU want is to not vote for any of them in the primaries, AT ALL? Think about it: yes, if there was almost no popular vote at all in either primary, you would have dipshits running as the party frontrunners... but if you reserve your golden silence, and do nothing but blast BOTH parties and consistently say NOTHING and NEITHER in the polls - as opposed to being spoonfed like you really are, one or the other - you would see even the most strong-headed assholes chomping at the bit to do what you want so they'll get elected the weakest pussies of all parties is the AMERICAN PEOPLE, who will no doubt attack me from all sides just for saying it. But hey, it's true -- you never wave at people you dont know just to say hi for no reason, you don't know how to get your way or your voice heard unless you PAID FOR IT (sound like politics to you?), and you let people convince you of what you need so you can be as close to flat-lining as possible once you get out of work. try actively fixings THESE problems, and your own true moral compass will show you the ONE ANSWER NO ONE WILL LET YOU SPEAK ABOUT.... not voting, unless the poll has an entry for "nothing and neither of you assholes", or not voting at all in primaries - as a whole people - to show them you are serious. Go ahead, give me the rhetoric you have been fed about "not voting is not exorcising your responsibility as a citizen!" and I'll ask you which politician or authoritarian school teacher burned that into your brain. because one of them did. Since when is a resounding silence the only sin in people's-side politics? because it's your only weapon left.
if all else fails (and actually try everything else first), vote Kucinich, and THEN learn to use your silence. but please, America - TRY. actually try.
Asking why the Democrats don't do more to oppose the Republicans is like asking why the Harlem Globetrotters' opponents were such patsies. The game is fixed.
Come-on my fellow liberals. Swift boat the bastards. Negative
always wins over positive. Low-road beats the hell out of the
high-road. We are the party of FDR. Lets campaign like the great
man did otherwise we lose again.
Charles @ 21:
As usual, the democrats are playing not to lose...
You can't beat these guys that way. You can't wait for THEM to lose. You have to BEAT them into the ground.
And despite all the whining about negative campaigning, most research show that it works.
One thing that doesn't work is wimpiness. The people that vote don't respect wimps. Whether that is the best of all possible worlds is irrelevant.
Dems just don't get that. People like Paul Hackett, who wouldn't take any shit, inspire people.
Spot on.
There is no reward for Dems. when they take the so called " high road".
When Dems. talk about issues of importance in a substantive way they are
portrayed as weak and out of touch by both their opponents and the media.
In short they are made to look like wimps.
The right wing media hacks,clowns and pundits will lie, fabricate, and dissemble
in any way they deem necessary in order to make Democrats look bad.
Elections are dirty ugly affairs, the sooner the Dems. learn that and act
accordingly, the sooner the wimp label will disappear.
Let's worry about the "high road" after we win the election.
crazylove @ 79:
C'mon. We're punching our way out of a paper bag. Grabbing the wrong end of the donkey. Marching down a blind alley. Were it not for 12 bluedogs sabotaging every goddam meaningful vote we'd be calling Iraq the Occupation that it is. One more time, please go here:
Otay @ 12:
"Why stoop to their level"? It's time to go BELOW their level. Past time.
NO MORE "MR NICE GUY". :(
bill w @ 90:
Okey dokey. How?
Can only speculate (since ACTION is so rare these days) bet Larry Flynt is waiting for the pithy moment to roll the dice against these freaks outside of nature itself.
Now you guys are talking. High-road is crap. Let's fight
the bastards & make them sound like they are on the
high-road. We hear those right wing asshats day & night
with out rebuttal. It's time to fight. My neighbor is a Republican
& to kick things off on this Sunday morning I will call him up,
won't let him speak a word tell him what an ass he is & hang up
in his ear. It's not much but a good start. :-)
Democrats are weenies, they have been for too long.
Unfortunately, the stuff that is "obvious" to us is complimentary to their supporters. He's a religious extremist! He's a bigot! He's a hypocrite! I'm going to vote for him!
Repugs are at their WEAKEST EVER. They have NO PLATFORM for '08.
The dems are still quaking in FEAR WITH THE DOOR STANDING WIDE OPEN, all because of 12-13 pussies.
Re-educate your local state pussy (my state has 2)
Hillary Clinton is a repuke...visit
http://motherjones.com
Oooohhhhhh, silly peoples. Republics and democrats are really the same. They all are being pressed to continue the NeoCon agenda at ANY cost. As per the instructions of the true masters of the Government. Whosoever they maybe.
The Democrats beat the Republicans on the record of just about every issue that matters. Even the record of results for the supposedly "worst" Democatic President of the modern age, Jimmy Carter, rivals or beats the record of resutls of the supposedly "best" Republican President of the modern age, Ronald Reagan.
If the American people care more about character assissination and crooked gotcha' gamesmanship than a better record of results, then they vote Republican and they get what they asked for. No amount of reasoning is going to prevent idiots from doing harm to themselves.
The political problem with the Democrats is NOT that they don't trash the Republicans as much as they so richly deserve. The problem is that they don't tout their true history of presiding over far better results at nearly every level of nearly every important issue than Republicans.
That is why the Republcans understandably denigrate "looking back". Oh, no, they always want us to "look forward". It isn't helpful, they tell us, to whatever new calamity they have presided over for anyone to "look back", you know. Well, Republicans hate "looking back" because their record of measurable results so clearly lags behind that of the Democrats. If I were a Republican, I'd really hate for anyone to "look back" at the record, too.
Democrats should ignore that carefully crafted accusation from the Republicans and instead do a lot more of it. There is practically no danger in a Democrat "looking back" at the record of results to compare their Party's with the Republicans.
WITHOUT THE VOTE-FRAUD, Republicans LOST 2000, 2002, 2003 (CA Recall), 2004, and worse in 2006.
So all this 'low road' bit -- which is NOT coming from Dems, and won't -- is unnecessary. If we can get our votes counted, WE WIN. As we are.
• WITHOUT becoming what leftists always say Dems are: the same as Republicans.
No, we are not. We're going to run positive campaigns and avoid the gutter. Because those who want to go into the gutter want a dictator anyhow, not democracy. A good dictator for the leftists -- one who will punch his opponents in the nose -- and a bad dictator for the rightists, who will be pretty much like Boy Wonder, or worse.
Democracy is not the solution for people expecting to see pro wrestling instead.
arroyo @ 94:
Great, so when you have faced machine gun fire like John Kerry, or fought on the ground in Korea like Charlie Rangel, or were a platoon commander in Vietnam like (Navy Cross receiving) Jim Webb, then you will have something to compare to their heroism.
Democracy is weaker than you think. What you call 'being weenies' is actually our system of gov't -- a system where you actually have to negotiate with your opponents (you can't just ignore them). Which is why the brass balls on cats like Ralph Nader would mean BUPKISS if they were to find themselves in power.
a question for the DEMOCRATS.
When are we going to begin on some serious accountabilities? When are we going to begin IMPEACHMENT?
Impeachment or criminal proceeding is not going to end even when those in our goverments who are trying their darnest to run-out the clock on this Criminals in the White House.
The statement from the Congress is ....it is either you are with us or against us. NO!
It is either the Congress is with the PEOPLE or AGAINST THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. The congress IS the servant for the PEOPLE and NOT the other way around.
If he doesn't get the nomination I will look outside the major parties for someone to give my vote to.
Read, "If he doesn't get the nomination, It's OK with me if the Republicans stay in charge."
What a lame commitment. I care so much about this country that I'll do ANYTHING to kick out the Republicans – even vote for Hillary if it means the Dems get a shot at it.
Why aren't they doing more to counter the Repubs? Because they first have to spend all their energy convincing the rest of us that they really are Democrats. They haven' convinced me yet. To my eyes, most of them look like a bunch of corporatist whores and neocon-lites trying to find cover under a "centrist" label .
Wise_Fool @ 85,
Well said.
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