What ramifications will leaked Red Cross report have?
The Village Voice would have you believe that it paves the way for some sort of international tribunal. I'm just hoping it doesn't go down the memory hole unnoticed...
While the Democratic Congress has yet to begin a serious investigation into what many European legislators already know about American war crimes, a particularly telling report by the International Committee of the Red Cross has been leaked that would surely figure prominently in such a potential Nuremberg trial. The Red Cross itself is bound to public silence concerning the results of its human-rights probes of prisons around the world-or else governments wouldn't let them in.
But The New Yorker's Jane Mayer has sources who have seen accounts of the Red Cross interviews with inmates formerly held in CIA secret prisons. In "The Black Sites" (August 13, The New Yorker), Mayer also reveals the effect on our torturers of what they do-on the orders of the president-to "protect American values." Read on...
I don't recall any of the top three Dem candidates mentioning it. I do remember one of the Repubs candidates saying he would double gitmo. I believe it was Mitt who proudly made that comment.
While the prez is in Iraq today, maybe he can visit some of the Iraqis who have been tortured and see what they have to say.
I think this is the issue with the HIGHEST level of denial by Americans, who rely - unconsciously - on American exceptionalism for denial: "We're AMERICANS! That means we CAN'T commit war crimes!"
But I think that the war crimes issue is the most important international issue to arise out of the invasion of Iraq, though I guess it starts with the treatment of people captured in Afghanistan.
I think the second most important is retribution. The US ought to pay Iraq many billions in reconstruction money, WITHOUT directing the funding to US corporations.
Skip impeachment. Bring Bush and Cheney up on war crimes now and pack them off to the Hague! And send Kristol, Wolfowitz and LIEberman off with them.
As the rats jump ship and try to hide around the world, it will be up to other countries to CAPTURE these war criminals and prosecute.
Meanwhile those who remain in the country will have to avail themselves of the judicial system here. Are the people angry enough to make justice work?
Why would Bush buy lots of acres of land in South America near an abandoned US military base for his 100 plus Secret Service detail in a country with no extradition?
The fear is oozing from the pores and the eyes dart.
Their hoping money will by the insulation, good luck.
Who Would Jesus Torture?
there will be no war crimes trials.
Japan and Germany were soundly defeated, and Dresden never came up at Nuremburg.
Sorry kids, that's how the Real World works.
Move on folks, nothin to see here.
no history will not absolve us, it will crucify us
Yes, we'll go down history, again, as a nation-state that behaves as nation-states do in times of war. The question is, will our American children read those history books, or will we whitewash them?
And yes, as to tribunals - we would have to sign on to the treaties first, and physically permit the handover of the indictees. I think the best (vain) hope we have is that we do these trials domestically. Fat chance.
For a nation who proclaims themselves to be "under god", seems torture wouldn't fit into that picture. I guess our nation is "under god" but not above torturing our fellow human beings.
There is a great movie done by amnesty international called "closet land" done in the late 80's or early 90's on torture. It's hard to find, I watched back then and have never forgotten it.
One terrorist attack or another GOOD WAR is all that will be needed to swipe all this back under the rug. And this week we'll be treated to nonstop wallpapering of BUSH supporting the troops right there in IRAQ! Good photo ops to welcome home his much touted "impartial" guy, Petraeus...what a frigging joke.
You know the drill: We don't torture. Therefore, if we did it, it's not torture.
When you're in denial, you have nothing to deny.
Americans as a whole approve of torture. Sure some people don't, like on here, but as a whole Americans have known what their government does in their names for decades. Iraq is nothing new. Neither is Gitmo. That's why the media doesn't cover it. Why would they? Americans couldn't be bothered. It's irrelevant as long as it isn't happening to them. Ever wonder why they hate us?
myiq2xu @ 5:
Jesue was tortured and put to death and somehow managed to find the strength to forgive his torturers. I am no Jesus and would like to see the war criminals brought to justice at the Hague. (In a gesture to their humanity, I would like their deaths to be swift and painless.)
I'm voting for the memory hole. After all, our Democratic 'leaders' can't even stay focused on something like the U.S. Attorney firings, instead opting for the ol' 'if we play nice with George, he'll play nice with us' line.
Instead of pressing an inquiry into the illegal and warrantless wiretaps, the Democrats end up passing legislation that turn a flagrant violation of the law into the law of the land. (If you buy that 'sunset provision' nonsense, you're kidding yourself.)
The longer we wait, the more we'll have to do to restore the Constitution and our protected freedoms. God knows if we'll ever be able to restore America's reputation.
myiq2xu @ 5:
Jesue was tortured and put to death and somehow managed to find the strength to forgive his torturers.
I am no Jesus and would like to see the war criminals brought to justice at the Hague. (In a gesture to their humanity, I would like their deaths to be swift and painless.)
The problem with the story is that it will come from American media. If the reporter violates a sacred convention regarding the red cross, cooperation may, in the future, be harder to come by. In any event, it looks like sensationalism. Either way, future credibility may be compromised.
To me, the biggest problem will be the extent anonymity may be preserved at the cost of credibility.
In any event, Guantanamo is actually sufficient as a case for indictment and would probably be a way to force other countries to cooperate less with the criminal US regime. But we don't, as a nation, have the cojones to do anything about what goes on and our representatives are cowards as well and quite possibly complicit in all of this.
Waiting for the day when the names and addresses of the torturers and enablers are published. It's going to be funny.
We don't even follow the Geneva Conventions in Iraq!
http://aliveinbaghdad.org/2007/08/27/iraq-has-no-new-oil-law-and-no-gas/
CensoredFan @ 13:
I disagree with the part about americans approval of torture. but laziness is certainly a factor. the returning coffins, the torture at gitmo and abu ghraib, walter reed and the multiple deployments have one thing in common: no media coverage.
But if I were msm, owned by war profiteers, I would keep my job by not reporting anything my masters did not want.
The junta's war crimes always get scrubbed while they distract the connies with culture war issue de jour
Shared Humanity @ 17:
I hate to break it to you, but they don't do the death penalty in The Hague.
pissed off patricia @ 1:
maybe he should exchange places with them so he can experience some of their experiences
Marty @ 6:
Things are very different now in how this works. It will only take one German, Spanish or perhaps and Italian judge and Mr. Decider and Co. will be on the run for the rest of their lives.
And what fun that will be.
We don't need no stinkin' red cross report...to prosecute these bastards. They've committed so many crimes against humanity that a world court would have a field day charging them with offenses.
BaScOmBe @ 21:
I partially agree. Americans do know what is going on, regardless of whether it's being reported. Hell, there was no internet, or tv in World War 2, and still the ones with brains knew what was going on and it wasn't all that Uncle Sammy said as usual. Americans know exactly what their government is and has been doing for decades but we don't care. It is irrelevant because it does not directly effect us. I was deleted in another post for commenting on the US military, but I was right on the money with my comments. Listen to Americans cry how terrible it is to see US military dead, all less than 4000 of them, but only pay lip service to the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. That is the REAL America. Tragic, sad, and pathetic. Capitalism has truly created an incredible country, hasn't it?
CensoredFan @ 13:
I don't think Americans as a whole approve of torture, but I think they have their heads in the sand and refuse to believe our perfect form of government could countenance torture. That's just my opinion, but neither you or I really have any hard data to boost our respective views.
on a related topic; here's a film I made for Al Jazeera English on the CIA's bungled kidnapping of citizens in Italy... with mention
of U.S. gulags and black sites, etc.. but we play if for humor and satire, in the way the rest of the world sees America these days...
extraordinary antics part 1
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_CVEMysbdOQ
extraordinary antics part 2
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wIFJltamP_A
What those in the military, both officers and enlisted, should keep in mind is the the lesson of Nuremberg and afterwards the Nuremberg Principles, specifically Principle IV, which stated that following orders during wartime can never be considered as a justifiable excuse to be absolved of war crimes, crimes against peace and crimes against humanity. The hope is that someday Lt. Ehren Watada will be called as a witness against Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld when those three will be tried in the future as war criminals.
naschkatze @ 28:
I agree. No hard data. But if it is just the "head in the sand refusing to believe their government" does it, then what you are saying is Americans are stupid AND lazy. I don't buy that. Nations do not become rich and successfull because of stupidity and laziness. We would have collapsed long ago.
If we want to continue with the American way as set up by the Constitution, Bill of Rights and the Geneva Convention, it seems War Crimes are necessary, otherwise, what exactly do we stand for?
The trial should be held in Nuremberg, D. C. - the scene of the crimes.
A.Citizen Says:
"Things are very different now in how this works. It will only take one German, Spanish or perhaps and Italian judge and Mr. Decider and Co. will be on the run for the rest of their lives.
And what fun that will be."
Mr. Citizen, you are obviously a great fan of Hollywood cinema. Mr.Decider and Co. will live out their lives in creature comfort as you and I continue to type our little comments on a little site on the internet.
War crime trials are needed but I doubt I will ever see them. All I hope for now is that history remembers the Bush administration for what they did.
Maybe not American history books, but hopefully the rest of the world doesn't have the revisionist history.
the indifference on the part of the rest of my country. We re-elected Hitler to office.
It is embarrassing to me that here we are still dancing around the idea of impeachment when presidential candidates should be getting asked whether they will support crimes against humanity against members of the Bush administration.
I would like to know if even Dennis Kucinich is this daring. If anyone knows, reply for me.
Sorry, should preview my posts first. The sentence that got cut off halfway was just about this being the issue that most makes me utterly ashamed to be an American.
I know everyone is supposed to think his own congressmen are the best even though Congress is generally held in low esteem. But in my case it's true: Senator Wyden is one of the best there are, maybe one of the few truly good ones, and he does so many good things which never get publicized. (In the traditional media, that is, not here on the blogs.)
CensoredFan @ 31:
That was true at one point, but we are collapsing now, and we have lost a couple of generations to the dumbing down of America.
To paraphrase a secret memo from the White House: "...the 'new paradigm' of the war on terror renders obsolete the Red Cross' and its desire for strict limitations on questioning of enemy prisoners and renders quaint most of its ideas on the rights of human beings."
'Half of writing history is hiding the truth'.
Perhaps it would be ok for the states of the victims to kidnapp the war criminals and hold them accountable on their soil.
Yeah, the hypocrites in the US will scream bloody terrorism.
None of this 'rape a 12 year old, murder her and her family, hide it all and then only get 10 years in prison' or sodomize children in prison and get off scott free.crap.
Yeah, the US is just a shining example of protecting freedom and human rights.
Someone was once criticized for saying that Americans were mini-Eichmanns. But he was correct!
You will hear the same crap the Germans said. Oh they will wave their flags and chant their chants but when the check comes they will claim innocence and cry over the dead.
'Oh, we are Germans, we do not do that kind of stuff'.
Change the flags and the language and you just might be frightened.
Especially with a call for more concentration camps.
Like it or not, what the Government does is done for the people, by the people.
The blood of every man, woman and child killed by US hands or by the hands of those they support, is on the hands of the people of the US.
As long as Americans stay ignorant to what they are really doing in the world, they have no reason to complain when their actions come back full force.
The Village Voice has been sadly irrelevant since 1987. They're trying too hard to keep up its readership, but the majority of its readership are now frat boys who destroy places like Niagara, or all those rich whites that survived the Ghouliani ethnic cleansing.
The policies have been set, the ghouls let loose to do their works, the deeds have been done. the crimes against humanity, the war crimes have already been committed, are now being committed as instruments of state policy. History has no choice but to judge the architects and the executors and the enablers and the justifiers of crimes against humanity as the criminals that they are. What's done is done. Those who did it or let it happen are what they are: twisted monsters whom the world community needs to protect itself from. They must be brought to justice before an authorized court or tribunal, or civilization will be deeply diminished for a long time to come.
"She quotes a former CIA officer: "When you cross over that line of darkness, it's hard to come back. You lose your soul. You can do your best to justify it, but . . . you can't go back to that dark a place without it changing you." "
I know of a way that the return trip from darkness can be made on an individual level: If you've blood on your hands and evil works on your soul, make your way to the Hague or other comptent body, and swear out an affidavit telling all that you know, and all that you did as a participant in war crimes and crimes aganst humanity. Name names, who gave orders, who particpiated with you. Everything. Spill your guts, regardlessthat what you are saying will be classified. classifications were only issued to conceal criminality, which is itself illegal. Do your part to bring the people giving the orders to justice. Along the way, you might just make it possible for yourself to acknowledge, without any filters, that you have participated in evil. You just might make it possible for yourself to understand all the things that words cannot convey about the concept of remorse. You might just be able to someday join or rejoin humanity.
Why does that left leaning Red Cross hate America?
Could a normal person do there things? The excuse that they are doing these things to protect America just doesn't wash. The best way to get a pass to do the unthinkable is find some way to make it a part of your official duty. You're gonna find a bunch of folks torturing for America, who got their early training on dogs and cats when they were kids.
Clytemnestra @ 43:
They hate you for your freedoms.
But don't fret. bush and company are doing what they can to relieve you of those freedoms, in the hope of making you more lovable.
Let the trials begin!
I'll start getting the gallows together...
CensoredFan @ 31:
I think it might be that we are stupid and lazy at this point.
We are in decline as a nation, and our fortunes are running on fumes so thinking about how the US USED to be is to turn a blind eye to the state of the nation as it is.
If we were smart and engaged as you suggest we would not be rapidly becoming a second world economy.
The Bush-cabal has quietly signed non-extradition agreements over war crimes involving Administration officials with countries that receive monetary aid from the US. They can't legally send these people to The Hague for trial any longer.
So ask yourself why the bushies felt a need for such agreements at or duing a time the Iraq nonesense was playing out.
Planned or coincidence?
In the 1994 Torture Convention Implementation Act, we put into U.S. law what we had signed in Article 5 of the UN Convention Against Torture, which is defined as "an act 'committed by an [officially authorized] person' . . . specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering . . . upon another person within his custody or physical control."
The 1997 U.S. War Crimes Act "criminalizes . . . specifically enumerated war crimes that the legislation refers to as 'grave breaches' of Common Article 3 [of the Geneva Conventions], including the war crimes of torture and 'cruel or inhuman treatment.'"
I assume Bill Clinton signed these into law. If so, it looks like Bill might have the last laugh after all. Good.
Here's an idea. Next time an in-the-closet repugnican gets outed by toilet cops, cover this story instead. That way, if these guys end up being Bush media decoys, you wont be helping Bush.
9/10ths of an important story, is whether it is covered adequately.
What ramifications will leaked Red Cross report have? NONE!!
I stopped believing the USA was a moral, civilized country the day the president signed the TORTURE legislation, and NO ONE SAID A THING!!!
PopeTodd @ 47:
The average American is stupid and lazy. They don't want to question anything, just go on about their lives in a kind of la-la land, and not pay any attention to those less fortunate, or those being TORTURED. They are apathetic and poorly educated.
el kanuckistani @ 45:
More importantly, the question no one is asking, "Why does Bush hate America?"
A Richard Head @ 49:
Not so. Bush made it go away.
http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/08/aspa080302.htm
In 2002, Bush signed into law the American Servicemembers Protection Act.
No-one in American uniform, or their political masters, will be put on trail in The Hague. America can (will?) invade the Netherlands when such trails begin.
Isn't the Iraq war just one great big War Crime?
1, When the senate failed to do it's duty to declare war and delegated it to Bush.
2, When the Senate knew that the reason to wage war in Iraq was a set-up and did nothing.
3, When the current Senate does nothing but give more money to the war and re-authorizes the warrant-less wiretaps.
4, Isn't there already enough crime to justify criminal charges against nearly all of them including our Senators? Because they truly are complicit and the thinking that They (the democrats) will do anything to change it is simply living in a delusion.
Edwin @ 52:
Reagan hated this country. that is why he attacked public education and other social programs every chance he got. That is why he tried to turn FEMA into a detention camp manager. My dad got a good education in the public Ed system in the 50s. He grew up in a supportive, awesome country. So did all of his friends. The problem is they voted for Reagan three times (governer, president, president). Now they wonder why their kids are dumb. Their error was conservatism--believing that markets could do the job better than government.
Try them all "in absentia", convict them and leave it at that. Then the rest of their lives they'll be tagged "convicted war criminal".. I love it.... Convicted war criminal, Dick Cheney had a medical setback today.... convicted war criminal George Bush had a pie thrown in his face at a pro-am golf tourney today, it was the 12th time in 3 years this had happened...
el kanuckistani @ 45:
Or better, they hate what your freedoms are doing to the rest of the world.
I agree that war crimes trials aren't likely, but I won't rule them out. This is a crazy world, and a crazy time for the US. If the very worst case scenerio is possible, the very best must be also. Remember, the average Serb never thought Milosevic would be put on trial, and yet he was. Then again, the Serbs did eventually throw out their odious regime, something we have not done with ours.*
*No, I'm not saying the Bush and Milosevic regimes are the same, obviously, I'm just drawing the best "what people expected" comparison I can.
tubino @ 2:
How many Americans were ever brought to justice for war crimes and crimes against humanity? Hm? Do you think there ever would be one?
I didn't think so.
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