DC: Anti-War Protester Kokesh and Others Arrested
By bluegal Thursday Sep 06, 2007 5:50pm
Wapo: (h/t Watergate Summer)
More than a dozen police officers converged at a corner of Lafayette Square yesterday, bringing with them a horse and extra handcuffs.
Their target: a handful of demonstrators who had gathered to post two signs on an electrical box advertising a protest march Sept. 15 against the Iraq war.
During a clash that drew a crowd during lunchtime, two demonstrators, including an Iraq war veteran and the mother of another veteran, were arrested on charges of defacing public property. Police charged a third protester with impeding an officer.
"It was a case of extreme police overreaction," said Brian Becker, a protest organizer.
The D.C. government has fined the coalition about $20,000 for posting signs, and the Park Service has asked the group to remove them.
The coalition countered by filing a lawsuit challenging the District's regulations. The suit is pending.
The group assembled for a news conference yesterday at Lafayette Square to promise to put up more posters, regardless of possible sanctions. Within minutes, the pledge was tested. An officer approached and asked whether the demonstrators had a permit for their gathering.
More officers arrived, including several dressed in black commando-style uniforms and one atop a horse that he maneuvered to push back the crowd.
Video of the press conference and arrests is here.
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Can you spell fascism, boys and girls?
"Back off, folks! You are instigating a riot by using the wrong paste for your signs!"
Are the cops here relatives of Sean Hannity? I thought you had to have some logical thought processing to be a cop. Guess not.
The police seem to get off on their power and this incident of the over-use of force should be investigated.
Check out video I got of the 2004 protests in NYC... same kind of thing, where the police entered Union Square.
I wish we could have debates like the one I shot that day. No time limits. No commercial breaks. Fight to the END!!!
http://www.dbprod.biz/videomind/24/
Dumbya showed he doesn't know the difference between OPEC and APEC in a speech today.
As often as the dunce puts his foot in his mouth, I hope it tastes good.
The only thing that came to mind when the officer rode up on his horse was... WTF!
I'm gonna be honest i'm against this war as much as the next person,
but there are times I can't take protesters seriously. A lot of people treat it like burning man or something and it turns into a puppet/performance art show (which is fine I enjoy art)
but its hard for me to take your opnion seriously when i'm distracted by your gold painted body and the acid trip you're on. And if someone like me that was raised by a bunch of artists/hippies/liberals find it off putting what does ma and pa kent think.
Whatever, Alex. If you're against the war, do something. All these people were doing was putting up a sign, and they got arrested. I can't see these charges sticking. WTF, indeed.
And Bush's Storm Troopers step in. Arresting people for promoting peace. What a great country we live in. Peace bad....war good.
Marc @ 4:
The
policeExecutive Branch seems to get off on their power and this incident of the over-use of force should be investigated.HOLY SHIT.
RUSH: You're talking about the Bin Laden tape?
CALLER: Yes, the Bin Laden tape.
RUSH: So CNN is not telling anybody the transcript details of Bin Laden excoriating his allies, the Democrats?
CALLER: That's right, exactly. And I'll tell you what. On MSNBC, that Keith Olbermann, he has a pathological hatred for Bush. I'll tell you what, nobody is watching that show, and occasionally I'll flip over because I'm a political junky but, you know, NBC is having out-of-control like that.
RUSH: Now, we gotta rein you in. This is a man eminently qualified for NFL pre-game show commentary, now. He was not good enough in the old days, but now you can have all kinds of deranged, insane, lunatic, liberal political commentators on NBC's Sunday night pre-game NFL show. My, how things change! The pioneers take the arrows here, folks.
damn, that's good advertising!!! let's see that's sept 15 . . .
I have a question.
If an "Anti-War Protester" and a "War Protester" were on a street corner, which would be arrested by the Bush Administration?
Old Billy @ 9:
thats a mature response by the way. I don't think you read the comment i'm saying when you dress up like a clown I don't think people take you seriously
It's all fun and games until somebody's rights get trampled http://tinyurl.com/yw93qf . A year from now the capital of Minnesota will host the Republican National Convention. Many groups are already preparing: protesters have begun organizing http://tinyurl.com/3cszpo , the local police are polishing their technique http://tinyurl.com/2pdr65 , and sex workers across the metro area are clearing local politicians off their August 2008 calendars in favor of visitors.
While the question of effective versus ineffective security is an interesting academic exercise, yours truly is more concerned with the likely inevitability of his own arrest next summer, and whether or not medical insurance will pay for taser burn treatments... that's when it all gets personal.
Our rights are being trampled by police on horseback!
sex workers across the metro area are clearing local politicians off their August 2008 calendars in favor of visitors
heh, heh, prefab seedy motels are springing up all over...there's even a shortage of linen of questionable provenance.
alex @ 16:
And I'm saying, at least people who are protesting, whether they are dressed as clowns, painted gold, or dropping acid (which describes none of the people in the video,) are protesting. If you are against the war and demonstrate that by sitting at home furtively typing on your keyboard, you aren't helping much either.
By the way, I'm not concerned about your perception of my maturity. It's Friday.
Ah yes, America...that sexy, fascist state! Heil Bush!
I'll be at the protest next week. And if only the Democrats could grow a pair...
Hey Alex: I don't see anybody dressed funny here. How would you like this comments section to be censored also? We're talking about free speech here. What are you doing to stop this insane invasion and occupation?
We are in the midst of a breakdown in constitutional law here and you are appointing yourself the fashion police!
Get a Freakin Life!
alex @ 8:
What video were you watching? I saw none of that, especially the whole acid thing, here.
Alex:
Yes, because only well dressed, attractive people who engage in the sorts of activities I approve of should be taken seriously.
*rolls eyes*
I'm curious as to where exactly at this little press announcement there were painted hippies on LSD conjuring a Burning Man atmosphere? It was some average people having their free speech rights trampled on, plain and simple. No body paint or LSD required.
hey, i cant find any data about how this law is directed at these antiwar protesters. Someone find something.
alex @ 8:
What exactly were these protesters doing that you can't take them seriously?
alex @ 16:
Who was dressed up like a clown? It looked to me as if they were average Americans protesting the war in a perfectly sensible and legal way.
I guess they are right. We have no rights.
This is the antiwar movement in action. I hope there are protests I can find out about in my city! There seems to be so little advertising. Maybe this is why??? I am only too glad to turn off the computer and get out and protest. But where are the protests?
Cabs are fab @ 29:
Well, if you find one make sure you don't paint yourself or go on some psychedelic trip!
Impeach.org has information on their site- but I don't know if there is any action on local levels...Over a Million are expected in DC...that might be WHY the WH (aka Parks) are acting Desperate....I do know that most states are sending unprecedented numbers of buses....all and most organizing has been on Internet...and MSM has been notified plenty and seems to be ignoring as usual....Foriegn Media has also been notified and have people here.....ready to cover....
alex-
I hearya. I don't think a band of freaky gypsies helps sell the idea to middle class America, BUT...
These folks aren't freaky gypsies. If ya put a monster truck rally t-shirt on the guy puttin' up the poster, yer lookin' at a Republican. And the guy who makes the speech in the last minute of the footage looks like middle management.
Don't let the headline prejudice yer view of what actually happened and who it happened to.
Here's my YouTube comment:
expatted (2 seconds ago) Show Hide Marked as spam 0 (Reply) (Spam)
Sieg heil. Teach your children to goose-step. The only jobs left soon will be security forces to make Americans OBEY the warlords.
(Yeah, that's me if you're over there: expatted. Ted is short for Edwin. I have nothing to hide.)
"Tin solders and Nixon's coming. We're finally on our own." Only this time it's the Bush Bullies and their commandos. Why are the DC police such cowards?
Alex, if these people are freaks, where the hell do you live?? Is everyone already in their Nazi gear? These people could be anyone's next-door-neighbour. Don't you support their right to free speech, and the First Amendment?
First Amendment
n
part of the U.S. Constitution: an amendment to the U.S. Constitution that forbids Congress from interfering with a citizen’s freedom of religion, speech, assembly, or petition
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2003. ⓒ 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
It'd be nice to see this notion that you need a permit to gather challenged in court and ruled unconstitutional.
What I want to know is why does the right wing hate America? Why do the police hate the constitution? This really isn't a joke. What the hell is wrong with these people who claim to love America but hate everything about America?!?
kevin @ 37:
You don't mean to lump Canada and Mexico into your rant, do you?
Why not call your country by its name, the United States?
WTF is up with the cop on the horse?
Get their badge numbers. These cops are thugs and fascists. I'm sick of this crap. If they don't have the common sense not to overreact, sue their asses.
Canuknotusa @ 38:
Yes, you're right
A Couple of people up above have said that" Freaky gypsies" are protesting, actually they are incorrect ( and I think we need to get out of the 1970s mindset, next someone will use the "hippy" word-yikes) there are VETS, VET families, Gold Star Moms, and Familes, and Moms, Grandmothers and Dads, and Religous Groups, and Justice and Human Rights Groups and leaders planning to be there to try to show in Numbers how many people here are Ready to Impeach Bush /Cheney and BRING THE TROOPS Home...NOW....Many Groups have joined to send a Messege to the WH, OUR ELECTED, and to People Watching Overseas ( who are beginning to think we LIKE Bush- and we can't have that...) and it lets' the Troops know we are trying to get them Home...
Oh BTW Alex...Some of the folks are not "dropping acid" or "dressed funny"....matter of fact - they are VETS...back from Iraq...
Canuknotusa @ 38: Hey, why are you excluding all of South America? Some sort of North American bias? ;-)
I know Canadians can get touchy over this, and I'm sympathetic to a point, but it's an abbreviation and virtually the entire world uses "American," and uses "America" for "United States of America" quite often as well. But you can certainly calll yourself an "American" too, although it normally doesn't play as well as "Canadian" abroad these days. ;-)
That's funny, I thought cops were supposed to uphold the LAW (regardless of their personal opinions on it). Here they are doing just that, and all you can do is say they overreacted and should be sued. Don't like the law? Too bad, you'll still get arrested for breaking it. Plastering posters on public property is not free speech, it's defacing public property. How would you like it if I put posters all over your house? Perhaps pro-war posters? Then claimed 1'st Amendment right to do so?
Yeah, you'd allow that, for sure. Spare me the B.S.
Batocchio @ 43:
This is 'way off topic, I know. You're quite right about South America - I omitted it by mistake. In any case, as a Canadian I am an "American", bit I'll be damned if I'll ever be lumped in with the USA.
I invite everyone who can to pay a visit to our nation's capital sometime this month and exercise your 1st Amendment rights while we still can. I will be there.
And by the way, if you want to wear a funny hat, paint yourself gold, or mock our congressmen by putting on sheep constume-do it. You still have that right!
hah? what do clowns have to do with what happened in the video, which is what this post is about?
i smell a concern troll. it's as if i said, i might want to support fred thompson but i really hate those people that blow up abortion clinics.
stay on subject and then maybe we'll take you seriously alex.
Freedom.
Geez.
The WHITE HOUSE is OUR house too...we pay taxes and we pay for the war too, and we have EVERY right to go to DC and speak OUR TRUTH and Freedom of Speech is Still Worth Fighting For and Protecting.....Our Founding Fathers Wrote the Consitution and Laws to Protect Those Rights....We are not the Ones that Have Lied to the People and Broken Laws....We are not the Criminals....and maybe we should be in DC to remind Everyone of that....
( okay John, if it is This Hot still I am not wearing a Sheep Costume....)
It's getting ugly and it's only going to get worse.
I see martial law and no elections on the horizon.
*
Tomorrow there should be five thousand people there putting up signs. The next day, ten thousand. And so on until the jails are full. It is time to stop this war. If you can get to DC, and you love your country, go. It is your duty as a patriot.
I should probably clarify my standing on this, I have protested the war before I appreciate and have no issue with protesting. I my self have participated in marches.
I was not speaking of the video, I was speaking of protests I have seen in the past.
A lot of you seem to think I am trying to trample peoples rights, protest however you want I don't care
I never said people are freaks you can express yourself however you want all i'm saying is sometimes how you look or act counts a lot for your message. people are visual and first impressions matter.
Canuknotusa @ 45:
:lol: Well, sure, and that's sorta the point, isn't it? If you were in Europe and you said you were from America, no one would say, oh, are you from Canada? The U.S.? Brazil? It's a matter of usage, and plenty of everyday usage is imprecise for convenience.
(Where in Canada are you at, BTW?)
I met an Aussie in Europe once who asked if I was Canadian. I said no, from the U.S., and he laughed that he thought so, but "Americans" (as he called them) didn't get upset if he asked them if they were Canadian, but Canadians went nuts if you assumed they were American.
Anyway, have a good weekend, and I think we can all agree that civil rights are a good thing, and something worth fighting for. I'm glad those Montreal cops got exposed for trying to stage that riot not long ago, but I think the U.S. has it worse with its cops overall. Peace to our Canadian brothers and sisters.
I wonder if we'll have choice of locations when they start rounding us up for the detention/re-education camps?
A permit to protest?
The correct answer follows:
"Fuck yeah, I got a permit. It's called a social security card. I'm a citizen exercising my rights and you're a representative of a fascist regime illegally encroaching on my rights. Do you have a warrant to stop me from protesting, sir?"
Okay let's Clarify this, and let's table the talk about"first Impressions" .....DC belongs to WE THE PEOPLE.... it is the heart of OUR Government, we have every right to MEET and Gather and Address OUR Elected and let them KNOW as voters and hard working Taxpaying Americans that we Do Not support this Criminal Regime and their Illegal War. I am sorry but I have not seen ANY carnival Atmosphere or Circe-de-Soliel Antics - ALL the Protests And Marches Have seen have been Respectful ...and yes, full of Disheartened People, Americans who are tired of Blood being spilled Daily in their Name. I have seen Children, Greyhaired Moms And Dads, I have Seen Worried College Kids, I have Seen WarTorn VETS.....and their Families....and that is a Hell of A First Impression Alex......
the dc police are fachist pigs!
Georgette Orwell @ 2:
Are you Serious?? Fascism? Umm, Alex makes a good point. If you look like a clown, the mouth breather church going VOTING part of this country will not take you seriously even if you are trying to make a valid point. I hate the idea of judging a book by its cover but you and I will not change hundred of millions of peoples opinions by looking like Ronald McDonald on Acid. Would you show up to court and stand before a judge in Gold paint and glitter?? Derr.
The freedom to gather and protest...it was nice while it lasted....OH..OK I get it now...gotta get the permits first.......and you end up somewhere in bumfuck nowhere......hmmmm...doesn't seem very Free to me.
Batocchio @ 53:
Yes - the "usage" is what gets up my nose - and it's because of the US foreign policy and your support of cultural genocide in favour of corporate profit. I simply don't want to be mistaken for a citizen of such a country.
I realize there are many good "Americans" - and many of you post on this site - but unfortunately, you have to take responsibility for the worst of your country's policies - even if you are one of the good ones.
What really disturbs me though - is seeing how my country is becoming so much like yours.
God help us all.
Marc @ 4:
The police seem to get off on their power and this incident of the over-use of force should be investigated.
The police Executive Branch seems to get off on their power and this incident of the over-use of force should be investigated.
Well clarified.
The LAW @ 44:
ANSWER Coalition Press Conference in Washington DC
to Announce Free Speech Lawsuit Against DC Government
Statement by Sarah Sloan
National Staff Coordinator, A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition
August 20, 2007
The Department of Public Works is not telling the truth when they say we have improperly posted signs promoting the September 15 March to Stop the War. The fact is that we have posted these signs in accordance with District of Columbia Municipal Regulations.
Specifically, the 65 Notices of Violation sent to us last week from the Department of Public Works claim that we violated Title 24 Section 108.9 of the DCMR which states that "Signs, advertisements, and posters shall not be affixed by adhesives that prevent their complete removal from the fixture, or that do damage to the fixture."
Therefore, an adhesive can be used to affix posters as long as it does not "prevent their complete removal" or "do damage." All posters in question have been affixed with a water-based and water-soluble paste. Volunteers have in the past removed these posters following events and found that they are removed easily and quickly.
When politicians campaign for office they plaster their posters everywhere and frequently in a manner that is not in accordance with the law. They are provided 30 days following the election to remove the signs. Frequently they do not remove them. The ANSWER Coalition will remove the Sept. 15 posters following the demonstration....
more... http://www.pephost.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=8603
Oh, and by the way, if you plastered posters all over my house that would be private property.
Doesn't King George ALWAYS say in his speeches about Iraq, that we are there to Protect therir Rights and Bring them Freedom ? So that means we are not allowed to have any Civil Liberties on his watch...oh, and about the "Permits" , we still have Rights, and the Right to Gather And Assemble- and yes, there are permits for the 15th- let's stay on the Subject- this is NOT about permits or posters, it is about Cops Acting with Incredible Power- emboldened by this Regime, and violating American Citizens' Rights, and the Constitution.....
Never mind the fact that we, the people have a right to peaceably assemble wherever the hell we want to. Permits? We don't need no stinkin' permits!
Go Kokesh!
Erosion of Constitutional Rights
alex @ 52:
ALEX, you make a VERY GOOD point! If everyone came to a protest/rally wearing a suit and tie, the unwashed masses sitting in front of their commercial boxes would view such an event with a bit more seriousness. Of course, this would be extreme, but presentation is almost as important as the content.
We all know there is no end in sight. This occupation has nothing to do with Iraq specifically, it is just a staging area for hegemonic dreams.
The LAW @ 44:
Police are to uphold and protect the people they serve.
Look up the constitution- seem to missing a few marbles, but putting up protest sign on public property is in the peoples right to do so, and recent ruling of the Federal court rule that in favor of the people versus the state.
Sticking sign into the ground is not property defacing, posting sign with water soluble base adhesive up on wall on public property is not defacing. Recent Federal Judge rule in favor the rights for public protest by these 2 method.
In boldly and publicly breaking the law you only help this administration. This administration has taken away many of our rights. But to to break the rules in order to voice your angst about the rules you accomplish nothing but looking like a jackass. Change takes time and in some cases can actually happen quickly and with extreme force but this is not one of them. You have ALWAYS needed a permit to protest ALWAYS because if the local government doesn't know whats going on and a 5000 person group is blocking the path of an ambulance with a dying person inside or a fire truck racing to to a burning orphanage those people can die. They need to know alternative routes. Also many times the protesters have protesters and the police need to be there to stop the escalation of violence. Not to mention the violence that occurs many times during "PEACEABLE" protests as well as property damage to private and public property. I hate this administration, I hate the laws they have changed and the rights they have taken away but defacing public property in front of cop and having the cop arrest you is not a secret fascist agenda it is just plain stupid. DUH.
The LAW @ 44:
You idiot. People are allowed to put posters on public property. They DO have regulations concerning the type of paste used, but the posters themselves are perfectly legal.
Idiot.
you're an idiot if you have an opinion thats different, everyone should think the same. opinions are overrated. HOW DARE YOU DISAGREE. We should all think as one. if Don't question the people that decide what opinions you should have they know better.
Should have postered the horse, but then I suppose they would have gotten plastered with an animal cruelty charge as well.
Again the Federal court has ruled in favor of the protester rights to protest.
who is telling you that people don't have the right to protest? Who is telling you that you cant post signs on public property? Because that person didn't tell the mayor or the candidate running for office!
VJB @ 71:
I am certain these knuckledraggers would have slapped them with battery against a police officer - either stating that the horse was a police officer, or that it was indirect battery against the one riding the horse.
Again we need to stay on point here, WE THE PEOPLE have the Right to Protest, the Right to Protest this Government and this Illegal War, up above the Commenter#62 Clarifys the Legal aspects, BUT the main thing that people are missing as they get stuck on minutia points- this is NOT about Type of Paste or where the Posters were, or what the heck they were wearing ....These American Citizens ,one a VET and One a Mother of a VET were arrested for acting as Citizens, trying to Announce A Gathering , A March, a Protest....that is a Violation of Freedom of Speech - a Protected Right Under OUR Constitution.....For ALL of US....
Otay @ 73:
is there some irony in smearing glue on a horse?
idiot @ 75:
The horse was probably ready to bolt at the site of the paste. Until the protesters told it that it was made from wheat. ;)
I do recommend for Everyone going to DC, Carry the Constitution with you at all times, and Memorize it...be able to recite the Freedom of Speech part....by heart....
enigma4ever @ 77:
Me too. Except they had a lawyer and that didn't work on these Neandertals.
" No one can terrorize a whole nation, unless we are all his accomplices"Edward R. Murrow
alex @ 52:
So if I understand this correctly, for the heck of it, you decided to post something that had nothing to do with this video. This doesn't make you look that impressive.
Marc @ 4:
Police look down on the rest of us because you have to have a nearly perfect record to be a policeman, or be a genius at lying. What these police seem to need is a real job.
1) Sitting in shitters in parks and airports
2) Posing as children on the internet
3) writing 'speeding' tickets
4) Acting like gestapo at a peace rally
The list goes on...
That is why when they finally get the order to lock us all up in a FEMA prison, they will jump at the opportunity. I think that RNC 2004 proves that beyond a reasonable doubt.
It is the message, not the act that got these folks arrested. I have plastered posters up in DC without getting arrested. If you do not put them up on private property it is supposedly legal (unless they have changed the law since 1992.)
Honestly, I don’t know how many different times or how many different ways something can be conveyed before it’s understood.
There were a handful of demonstrators trying to get the message out that there is a protest taking place on Sept. 15. There were not 5000 protesters; they were not on private property, disorderly, belligerent, blocking traffic, or the myriad of other terms some posters have used. They wanted to speak with the media and hang some posters when the police went into fascist mode. I agree with “enigma,” the police were using the posting of these signs as a guise to stop the demonstration.
Angelo @ 81:
Well...
In the 1990's the DC government had a hiring surge in the police department. They hired a lot of officers. They later decided to take a look at who they hired. Turns out that among the scores of convicted felons they hired were five convicted murderers. Not to sure about the perfect record reference you cite.
law@44...oh look, there's another authoriarian minded "oh please sir, tell me what to do! I want to be a good boy and not misbehave! Down with the traitorous pro-American, anti-Mother England Boston tea harbor hippies!"
law44, see comment 62.
Agonystes, um, "duh"? (duh?!) what adult uses that in conversation?
1)You must have missed the wonderful "special force" of New York cops that were sent out to OTHER states, undercover, to infiltrate groups the Republicans felt might be disruptive/dangerous to their Convention.
2)You must have missed the fantastic news, that sometimes these cops acting as activists help to incite whatever usually non-existent "violence" you're referring to.
3)You must have supported the massacre at Kent state by "law enforcement officials"?
Your point is valid to a certain extent, but your love of authoritarianism suggests to me that you're a neo-conservative, or have republican traits.
Conservatives have gone from not wanting a nanny-state, to the biggest nanny-state, nanny-loving, childlike "save me from the big bad terrorists! tell me what to do in the bedroom, and with whom! tell everyone else how to teach their kids about sex education! force God on me, and ignore science! make evidence for WMDs fit the agenda!" bullSHIT.
FASCISM!!! Yes, FASCISM!
I think I'll do my thesis on whether or not when an authoritarian "patriotic" moron is in office, if it ripples on down to the everyday cop on the street, the love of authority, and likeliness that they'll just as willingly ignore individual rights
[...] http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/09/07/dc-anti-war-protester-kokesh-an... [...]
Agonystes @ 68:
A permit is not a permission slip it is customary to inform the police of your action so they can serve to protect the people. However they can not legally stop you from protesting as long as it is peaceful and legal. Getting a permit is just a way to cover the event organizer from lawsuit if a protest turn violent when it has left the control of the organizer. The police can plan a route on the street and you must stay within those approve routes.
The Horse charged up to the people on public property, and the Portland Horseman are being sued for doing the same on Oct 5Th 2006 protest. You can clear the streets with police horseman, but once your on the sidewalk approve for pedestrian usage you have the right to stand on them, and same for any public property.
Agonystes @ 68:
You are mistaken on several levels. Before the Clinton Administration you could protest in front of the White House with signs and even small "structures" set up on the sidewalk without the need for a permit. (Actually the concept of getting a permit to protest is the finest example of an oxymoron i can think of.)
Now you can not even get a permit to carry a sign on the White House side of Pennsylvania Avenue.
In quietly and privately obeying the law you help this administration. This administration has taken away many of our rights. But to follow the rules in order to remain silent about the rules you accomplish nothing and look like a jackass.
Okay Comment 62 clarifys the LAWS about Posters etc. AGAIN....this is not about DC laws regarding posters and paste..IT IS About the Constitution, and the Rights of that Document, and the Ability of the People to Gather, Assemble,and Speak Truth to Power, and yes, this Administration has turned OUR Country into A Police State that has been empowered, and emboldened to Mistreat Citizens, WE THE PEOPLE..and the Police are violating Our Constitution and are merely just tools for the Criminal Regime that shredded OUR Constitution....We the People, Especially VETS and VET Families have Every Right to Protest a War that is Illegal and Costing 200 Million a day OF OUR MONEY...and the Blood of Our Sisters and Brothers...and friends...and neighbors....and the blood of the Iraqis ( 1800 last month alone)....It is time for for Us, We The People to stand together, we don't have time for Nitpicking about "First Impressions".....We need to save What is Left of this Country.....And yes,folks this is What Fascism Looks like....
Stasi always on the march the last 7 years
It's so sad this had to happen, with the wonderful DC weather we've DEW19832 been having. The police seem to think this behavior is acceptable. The right to 873321 protest is indeed a32 sacred. I have little doubt that this is Rove up to his dirty tricks again, assisted by Cheney.
Omar Bakhtesh @ 91:
Don't underestimate the DC Police's ability to violate the law. They have been doing it for decades.
As a former law enforcement officer (6 years on the road) and a veteran of the first Gulf War, I can say I am ashamed of what law enforcement has become... and at the attitudes of some in our military.
When you enlist in the military you take an oath to defend the constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic. When you become a law enforcement officer, you are charged to uphold the laws of your jurisdiction.
Today, we get cops attacking protesters (and yes, I consider actions taken by police at previous demonstrations to be nothing more than attacks) and military men being "yes men" to an administration that is shredding our constitution.
Our country is truly lost...
But that electrical box was so beautiful, why should we let them deface it? BTW, have you heard of the houses, stores, hospitals, mosques, etc., that our military, under the direction of KickAss George, has defaced?
And stop arguing with Alex, he's a paid troll. The only protest he would go to was the one outside the Florida office that was recounting the votes after the current incompetant administration was rigging the election.
Angelo @ 81:
And yet IIRC the mayor of NYC gave the cops an "A-plus" for their performance at RNC 2004. If New Yorkers are so progressive, then why the hell do they elect ass-hats for mayor?
If Congress has no authority to restrict the right of the people to peacefully assemble to petition their government for redress of grievances neither should any state or local government. The notion that Americans need prior permission from anyone to do so is an egregious suppression of their inalienable rights.
I have a friend that is a die hard Republican, and just this last week I found out she voting for a pro-peace Democrats.
How hard up one must be to be still rooting for Bush? Or willing to deface the constitution in order to protect a Public property from water soluble adhesion posted sign?
It seems like everyone misses the point. Protest peacefully. Do it lawfully. Then when the police beat the crap out of you and sic their dogs on you thats what gets major coverage and people will see a lopsidedness to whats going on in our government on all levels. Otherwise you just feed the fire for the NeoCon agenda. People on their side and in the middle see you as some shouting obnoxious jerk. No one takes a shouting obnoxious jerk seriously. You unknowingly become a Fox Noise spokesperson for the Nutty Left." As far as I am aware you have always need a permit to protest but it is possible that it varies from state to state. I live in Oregon and you have always needed a permit to protest here. Its not hard to get you just need to file for one. No biggie. For those who use the example of Kent state you people are sick. What was on the the video versus Kent State could not be more different. Wait till their is a draft then you'll see another Kent State.
It kind of seems like a bunch of people on here just seem to be arguing the same side but differentiating things with trivial semantics.
Fight together not against each other.
Agony: you are not helping anyone-you and Alex need to go and work on your "first impressions"....98% of the people here are talking about Loss of Freedom of Speech,( the Righty Blogs are for those that want to Judge Americans that are trying to protest An Illegal War that is killing thousands....and their chat rooms are empty- go and enjoy, there are only two here that are causing problems, we call them trolls).....We are trying to have a discussion about Citizens - Good Americans ( one a VET and a Vet's mom) that were ILLEGALLY arrested ....and they were Peaceful and were not breaking any laws...the ONLY laws that were broken- the Police used Excessive Force and violated their Rights that are suposed to be protected Under OUR Constitution.....
And What to do about the Protests this week:
In DC Carry a copy of the Constitution and a Camera...and be ready to send to YouTube and also maybe many bloggers should start to identify themseles as Constitutional Journalists....and be ready to document and post to YouTube and Blogs...We the People need to take care of each other...
Agonystes @ 98:
There is a time for quiet, peaceful protests, and there is a time for outright civil disobedience. The more restrictions our government puts into place, the more rights that we have taken away, the more we need to be vocal. In 1988 the government saw fit to start restricting the rights of the people to gather freely, redress the government (in form of protests) and speak freely, by forcing not only to get special permits for protests, but also by setting restriction as to where one can protest (typically far away from the event and media as to not be seen or heard).
Starting even before that, in the 1800's (then enforced and written into law in the early 1920's, and not fully realized until just recently) our government put the "sedition" laws on the books, to discourage people from speaking out against the government.
If we allow our government, our public servants to continue taking our rights of free speech away (and yes, putting these posters up was perfectly legal, gathering in small groups is perfectly legal - we aren't under a dictatorship yet) - then soon enough there won't be any laws that allow us to peaceably assemble or redress the government in a "lawful manner" whatsoever.
The Boston Tea Party wasn't exactly a peaceful protest, and yet we still have that event on the history books. They were taken seriously, praised even. So too were the protesters who engaged in violence during the G-8 summits and WTO meetings. (albeit the police didn't help keep the situation calm, they only made it worse). Their protests were also taken seriously.
And the government seems to be taking this upcoming protest seriously as well, otherwise they wouldn't be harassing the groups and supporters as much as they are.
I wish I was a paid troll, what does it pay is there a retirement plan
I voted for Nader in 2000 so I guess you can blame me vicariously for voting for Bush. I voted for Gore in 2004 and will vote for a Democrat in 2008 Even though it makes me sick to do so, because I see little difference buts its enough to make me vote democrat.
I'm a little disheartened that I'm labeled a fascist, and a Bush supporting neocon. I'm all for constructive rational debate but when you digress to name calling it doesn't help
Agonystes @ 58:
Alex, I get what you are saying-I've seen the crazy looking stuff at protest too, but frankly at this point I'm happy to see someone able to turn the TV off and do
something to speak out.
And FYI, I am a church going voter and I feel compeled to go to Washington next week. I'm going to have 3 goofy looking buttons on my hat saying "Bring Troops Home", "We, the People are the Deciders", and "Pro-war is Anti-Christ". I am going to a rally and I am going to meet three young men who will be ending a peace walk (see marchofthepeople.org for details). After the rally we are marching to the capital to exercise our first amendment rights.
Awesome go forth and protest I have the utmost respect for what you're doing i'd be right there, if I was in washington.
Why do cops hate freedom? Rhetorical.
Because they can't think for themselves. And they are too emotionaly retatarded to do anything about it.
Actually, this has been brewing for some time. The DC government had an issue with the adhesive the protestors were using to post flyers of upcoming protests. They city claimed it was taking city workers alot of time to remove the adhesive so they decided to fine them if the put any more up.
And of course the DC cops, which from experience are complete jerks, seem to enjoy pushing their weight around. Part of it is an ego trip. Anything to find an excuse to block traffic and give people a hard time. They literally are riding around on their high horses thinking they are big and bad.
They have a history of grabbing bystanders right off the street and arresting them. Some innocent people are just passing through and the police grab them with everyone else.
They could care less about 1st ammendment rights. DC cops suck.
Don't come to DC if you don't have to.
The people putting up the poster mentioned the glue they were using in the video, as if it meant something. Perhaps there is something about putting up poster using a kind of glue that makes it hard to remove, rather than no posters at all.
The police over reacted, no doubt about it. In a way they have done a service to the protest by bringing more attention to it than it would have gotten if they just left the people alone and kept the posters up. Now there's this video out there and a question of suppressing decent by the DC police which will cause many who would not have considered attending, to attend just to reinforce their constitutional right.
Canuknotusa @ 60: I'm checking in much later, so apologies for the delayed response. I hear ya, and again, am sympathetic to a point (cultural genocide?), but I also have to take issue. Most people can distinguish between the U.S. government and U.S. citizens, as you sorta do in your comment, but then ya don't. You are aware that almost half to over half of U.S. citizens didn't vote for Bush, and don't support the current occupation of Iraq? It's also ridiculous to hold any citizen responsible for the actions of its government except on a case by case basis. Do I really need to trot out all the historical and current examples, Germany, South Africa, Japan, Chile, Argentina, China, Indonesia...? You have no idea what I or any other poster do or don't do in terms of activism. It's my responsibility to speak out, and to take action to the extent of my abilities, and to try to clean up the mess other "Americans" such as Bush make. But I'm not personally responsible for his sins or mistakes. That's silly. The point is to build some sort of collective or coalition to fight the idiots in power in the U.S. and all nations, and blanket, simplistic condemnations of an entire nation and all its citizens, even with exceptions for "good ones," doesn't help anything except perhaps personal catharsis. I don't have much patience for blanket bashing past a point, whereas I'm used to having some pretty frank discussions of what's wrong and how to fix it, and I've found that doing that with folks who aren't U.S. citizens is normally both fun and insightful. There's venting, which can be necessary, and then there's getting to work. Why pick a needless fight with people that are mostly in agreement with you? Hey, it's a blog thread, no biggie. But nationality is nothing compared to power dynamics, and I'm most interested in putting my energy into trying to change the abuses of power with other folks who feel the same way. Peace.
My former girlfriend and I were standing on a NYC sidewalk holding signs to protest a business that was ripping us off. We were not blocking anything or anyone. Just standing there holding the signs and talking to anyone who talked to us. The business called the cops who told us we needed to leave or be arrested because we didn't have a permit. When we went to get one we were told there was no such thing as a permit for 2 people holding signs.
That fact is that this is unconstitutional behavior. Freedom is an illusion. The police are in the wrong just like when they arrested those two people with anti Bush T-shirt at a Bush event, but the people giving the orders don't care. Those people won the lawsuit against the government but they still got removed from the event. Mission accomplished. Nobody can challenge the police at the time, they are the authorities and they can taser you or beat you with clubs or even shoot you if necessary. They count on people lacking resources or being too intimidated to challenge them after the fact and, if they do, the government just says "oops" and use taxpayer money to pay whatever penalty there is. I don't know of any restrictions on a government from unlawfully arresting people and then paying a settlement too often. The worst they will have is a pissed off comptroller. It's a perfect workaround when you think about it. They basically just buy as many unconstitutional events as they want, and it's not even their money.
Not to be cynical or anything.
I am betting those cops were the bullies in their schools too. :-/
Permit to assemble? In a public place? Wonder how much longer it will be before these brownshirt wannabes start flexing their muscles on all forms of protest, including tracking down 'seditious' statements from opponents of Bush and his regime.
alex @ 52:
Your 'concern trolling' of this issue started with your 'issue' about protesters not meeting your dress code. Which is patently ridiculous, what with all the dying and illegality and horror.
But protesters getting arrested, especially ANSWER protesters getting arrested, is not equivalent to a police state. The courts are still open, and they can still sue, and no one is stopping ANSWER from holding permitted rallies, or from using the media to advertize their latest action.
"“It was a case of extreme police overreaction,” said Brian Becker, a protest organizer."
• Brian Becker is not just a 'protest organizer,' he's one of the main leaders of ANSWER. And the whole point of this exercise was to get arrested, so mission accomplished.
ANSWER does NOT represent the antiwar movement, nor are they are chosen spokespersons. It's a radical group, which is fine, but that doesn't make their rhetoric somehow representative -- they wish. A considerable number of worthy protesters do not protest with ANSWER any more; a large number of groups do not form coalitions with ANSWER, as a result of what is perceived to be ANSWER's general interest in antagonizing police.
I appreciate ANSWER's organizing of protest marches, though their rhetoric is highly radicalized and not similar to my own. And next week will be one of protest, both on Nine-eleven itself and on the fifteenth. You don't have to agree with ANSWER to march or otherwise nonviolently protest on the fifteenth, and I hope many of you will.
Antagonizing police is not equivalent to protesting the man. Police agencies are not generally monoliths. There are good cops and bad cops. In general, cops are not the issue -- making the protest point with the PUBLIC is the issue. Making cops the issue may feel like 'doing' something significant, but it is actually just another symbolic act. The act of protest itself is worthy -- you don't have to get the cops riled to accomplish that purpose.
Plisko @ 108:
You don't need to bug the Constitution to get your right of protest. All you needed was your local 'lawyers' guild,' someone who could intercede with the police in court.
It is not, or should not, be news that municipal police take as their primary purpose the protection of property. The protection of persons is usually a far lower priority. It does not take more than a few police overreacting to create the 'illusion' of your freedom. But your freedom is hardier stuff than a handful of cops can change, unless of course they permanently injure you (to be avoided).
As a general rule, if the police tell you to stop doing something, the next step should be to contact the police administratively, and file a complaint if you were in the right. Someone along the chain of command is going to see your situation as a potential embarrassment, and a clarification will often ensue, after which you will probably be free to nonviolently/nonobstructively protest the bastards in the store to your heart's content. Not all cities are that free, but many are, and they get that way through the advent of lawyers and the community. But to expect beat cops to take your side against a property owner or business is expecting quite a bit indeed.
Having watched that clip especially of the policeman on horseback just indiscriminately and wildy over reacting, not to mention physically endangering a handful of protestors putting up a piece of paper for god's sake and having read about the people arrested for WEARING a TSHIRT expressing their disapproval of the government it is agonising to watch how America has turned into what can only be described as a mixture of 1980's Salvador and Pinochet's Chile.Im not kidding ,I'm terrified for you over there and horrified at what you've let your country become.Youre now living in a country where you can be "disappeared" overnight, can't even wear a piece of clothing protesting the government, you can be arrested without charge and held indefinitely without any recourse to a lawyer or a phone call and your emails and phone records are handed over to the government.FREEDOM??????You left the monarchies and dictatorships of europe and the world precisely to escape that bullshit abuse of power and here you have it right in front of you, snooping in your communications,banging down your door at midnight,stopping you free assembly and trying to silence all dissent.
Joseph, ONE cop does not have the power to turn America into anything it wasn't or isn't already. This is ANSWER staging an event with the police as the fallguys. A backdrop to dramatize protest. And the cops played along.
To suggest that an instance of police intimidation has some new force is hilarious. Any major city has thousands of instances of such in any particular month. Cops are required to be aggressive to handle their jobs. ANYWHERE in the world you do not want to deal with the cops if you can avoid it.
I grew up here. America is a violent society in one way of looking at it; in the other, there are millions and millions and millions of nonviolent persons. History is full of injustice by rulers -- it's really not the fault of most of us, though we take on fault if we don't protest crimes. But to overreact to the mild interactions on that clip is Academy Award material. Most cops are just cops.
DC city government should be profoundly ashamed of itself. This is the one place in America that has no representation, no say. DC wants statehood, but when the DC government has a chance to shine all it does is use its power to crush unfavored free speech? Hey, Washington DC, is this what you are going to do with the power of self-determination if you get it? A couple hundred years of chattel status hasn't taught you guys shit, has it?
Paul in LA, I appreciate and thank you for your comments and of course not living there does affect my ability to observe first hand but the point I'm making is that staged or not, it still involved a tiny and harmless protest and the response to it was ridiculously over the top.To call that clip of a policeman on horseback wading in to the gathering a mild interaction just shows how desensitized youve become there to aggression.I agree,most americans are non violent and have tremenduous good will in their hearts but the day your right to assembly and your right to openly criticize your government is suppressed then you've crossed a line from democracy to something much darker.thats all im saying.And I dont agree with you,cops are NOT required to be aggressive in handling their jobs, theyre required to be courteous and competent and efficient in assisting and serving the public first and aggressive as a last resort if need be in the face of aggressive provocation.There's a vast difference between being called out in a city to a scene of a dangerous disturbance and a peaceful non violent protest.
I posted the video in large format on my blog. Lets get the word out. Oh, I'm sorry, isn't that what our government is trying to prevent? My bad ;)
Batocchio @ 107:
I didn't intend to "blanket bash" all US citizens, as much as I intended to emphasise your responsibility in a free democracy to fix what's wrong with your government. It is true, I don't know what actions you have taken, personally, to do this - but if as you say, half of US citizens are outraged by the Iraq occupation, why hasn't something been done yet? And where was the outrage during the countless other US interventions in the affairs of others over the past 100 + years?
http://www.apk2000.dk/netavisen/artikler/global_debat/2002-1126_us_imp_b...
As a citizen of a neighbouring country, I've seen how Canada has both benefited (mainly economically, debatable) and been damaged (culturally) by US influence. I don't know if the average US citizen is even aware of what their own government has been doing in the name of the United States for much of its history.
Another whiney, self-indulgent stunt by the ANSWER Coalition. I'm entirely against this war, but as a long-time DC resident, I can tell you that public opinion amongst Washingtonians--and I mean liberal community activist Washingtonians--are fed up with ANSWER.
Why? Because they plaster posters on every possible surface all over town, in violation of city codes that mandate a maximum three posters per block, and that you take your posters down after your event has been completed.
ANSWER slaps around THIRTY posters per block, and they do this multiple times per year. Even the very--very--left-leaning DC columnist Jonetta Rose Barras has lambasted ANSWER for their tactics around town.
These are suburban-born Marxist wannabe litterbugs, and they are enjoying the spin and other press benefits of these stunts. But this entire effort is one where they simply believe that the rules do not apply to them--kind of how Bush approaches the world.
I hope they are fined to the nines for their violations of DC law. Those of us who really live here, who really work for change and improvements in our city, should matter as well. ANSWER could care less.
Joel Says:
Oh, dear. Too many posters! God forbid that your comfortable life is upset by too many posters! What do the Iraqis know about suffering? What's a bullet to a child's face as compared to this disturbing trend? Jesus.
Really - who gives a shit. At least Answer gets protesters to Washington speak out about this horror. How many serious protests have occured without their encouragement? And I think their motives are a bit more high-minded than getting attention for themselves. They are garnering attention to the protest and to the fact that the DC cops are hand-in-hand with the Bush administration in attempting to quash any free speech that deviates from their their authoritarian mindset.
So Answer are litterers. Our current leaders are war criminals. Hmmm...which is worse?
Christ.
Canuknotusa @ 116: Thanks for the clarification. At this site, I'd wager many people are aware of U.S. foreign policy and its history, most of all propping up "strong men" and almost always backing the more conservative faction in a country. As for those that aren't, I'd say there are two key factors, as in any nation: who's in power and calling the shots, and the quality of the media.
As for culture, I assume you mean the pervasiveness of U.S. movies and the like. France actually mandates that only so many U.S. films can be shown, and so many French films must be shown (or used to). I don't know if Canada does the same in addition to their arts funding for Canadians. If it's a matter of Canadians choosing U.S. films, TV shows, music, books, hey, that's their right. If it's a matter of TV station managers and homogenized movie theater chains not supporting Canadian product (a complaint I've heard), that's another matter entirely.
Its not Brownshirts now its BLACKSHIRTS.
Joel @ 118:
So they littered. Fine them and give them a ticket to appear in court. Only shit-for-brains cops would make an event of it by bringing in a horse to stampede the event, and then hauling them off in cuffs. Why the hell do you folks in D.C. let these dim bulbs be police officers? They are not doing anything beneficial for any side when they pull this crap. Does D.C. stand for Dumbshit Citizenry? I swear, between you guys and New York. You advertise to the rest of the world that you are too dumb to vote, for mayors to rein in the dim bulbed cops, and for laws to keep the cops accountable, and for education to tell the cops how to do their jobs without making a media circus of it.
By the way, don't work for change anymore. Your city is just too damned stupid to come up with any sort of change that would be beneficial. Please, just tell everyone in your city to tear up their voter registration cards.
Paul in LA @ 111:
I agree with this. In the end the citizen will usually win if they pursue it. My problem is that, by then, the police, and whoever is ordering them, have already gotten what they wanted. The protest was interrupted. The protester was removed from the area of the Republican convention, the people with the mean T-shirts were harassed and removed. etc etc etc. What you do after the fact is basically irrelevant because your original intention, to influence people with your protest or your free speech, has been neutralized. I would rather stop the war or get Bush impeached than collect a settlement from the government for stopping my influence on others.
As for taking my side against a property owner or business. If I am on a public sidewalk the cop's job is to protect MY civil rights as a citizen, not to protect a business owner on private property from embarrassment. I am on PUBLIC PROPERTY. The business owner wants to exploit that public property to attract people walking buy. . . but that property also comes with the price that free citizens can use it to express their views. Within the boarders of the private property the business is protected. On public property it is supposed to be me that is protected from them. Freedom, at the individual level, is indeed an illusion unless the cops decide to do their real job, which is, in large part, supposed to be about protecting and serving citizens rights.
Joel @ 118:
You are an overindulged jackass if you think that posters trying to save military lives are too much of an imposition on your life. Instead of hiding behind city ordinances, why don't you enlist and head to Iraq so you can stop being harassed so terribly by those darn anti war people and their posters.
God some people really need to be grabbed and shaken forcefully to wake them up from their self induced oblivion. People are dying and you are complaining about littering. Do you think this is all just some reality game show? Good God.
Perspective please.
Joel @ 118:
By the way. If there is ANY group that city litter ordinances shouldn't apply to it is the group trying to keep more Americans from being killed. Every one of those posters is an attempt to save lives. Every one of them is a symbol of our power as citizens to change the course our government takes. Every one of them represents the founding fathers dream of a free people. But to you it is just trash. Litter.
Shame on you.
Joseph Lane @ 115:
OK, sure thing.
2004 stats, per 100,000 residents (there are 580,000 residents):
Homicide: 35.7
Forcible rape: 46.8
Robbery: 385.9
Aggravated assault: 615.3
That's a DC cops daily existence on the job. SHOULD they manage their stress and the aggressiveness of the job well? Yes they should. But it is hardly surprising when they don't.
Canuknotusa @ 117:
• Little has been accomplished because we're in the middle of a COUP, with one party complicit, which used VOTE-FRAUD to control the Congress and the Executive, and shut out our democracy.
As for 'the last 100 years,' this data is GROSSLY misconstrued, and leads to the wrong suppositions. There is simply no comparison between actions taken before WWII and the formation of the UN, and actions since. Nor are the US' actions in such dire contrast with the actions of other major powers.
In the time since, the US has been driven by hysteria to war in Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq, by the military-industrial complex and its lies. In each case, those actions have not been constitutional, and in each case there have been illegal warcrimes committed. Vietnam and Iraq were both carried out by unelected figures in league with war profiteers. It's not a pretty picture -- it's a national and world emergency (among many others).
But if you think democracy can easily stop wars, you are just kidding yourself. It's a weak system of government, and regularly fails to stop this kind of criminality in time.
Paul in LA @ 126:
Exactly how many of those crimes occur at press conferences? Are you saying that cops get a pass to be hostile to everyone everywhere because there are bad people in DC and they have a tough job? Professionalism should mean, in fact it DOES MEAN they understand the difference between a street thug and a veteran holding a poster. Sorry I can't buy into this. If they can't manage their stress they belong on leave not on the streets.
gigi gryce @ 119:
Quite a few. ANSWER regularly drives out other organizations, while yet benefitting from marchers who are NOT members of ANSWER. But if you will look at the organizers of most of the protests, it was not ANSWER as the main organizer.
And that doesn't change the fact that ANSWER regularly conflates the local police for the Bush administration, causing trouble with police by that radical stunt. As for the overpostering of DC, yeah, in comparison to the crimes in Iraq, that's not much of a violation of the human compact, but it IS a violation of DC rules for protests, and as the action of a HANDFUL of protesters, is something that ought to be reined in by ANSWER. That they violate the rules with glee at the police reaction is not meritorious. They aren't scoring points against the Man. They are just not following the rules of legal protesting.
And the reason is that radicals mistake confrontation with action. They can't confront Bush directly very often, so they end up confronting the DC (or LA) police, and use the emotionalism of that to convince themselves that they are fighting the Man. It's really quite pathetic.
Plisko @ 128:
The courts are still open. The police can be sued for violent actions under color of authority. My point is simply that city cops around the country are expected to be aggressive, even violently so, on a split-second notice. Therefore it is unreasonable to expect such cops to be dainty with the public WHEN THE PUBLIC IGNORES THEIR ORDERS.
In the video, the officer/official tells the group to disperse. That's the end of the legal protest.
They don't disperse. At that point a confrontation with the police is on its way. And that's what ANSWER wanted. It was a stunt, which is fine, stunts are part of political work. But to be so aghast at the minor level of violence by the cops is to be hilariously out of touch with the reality of the street cops' existence. They expect their orders to be followed -- and as a protester of forty years experience, there are few times when police orders should not be obeyed. In this age of videocamera phones, the police are under special scrutiny, so if the police action violates standards, then they can be hauled into court and lose their careers. So it's not like there is no remedy to police overreaction.
Plisko @ 123:
That's correct. It's an effective tool, using the police to remove a protest.
It's not inconsiderable to back the police down on opposing protest. That is progress in many cases.
(Cop, to me): The City of Los Angeles owns the sidewalks.
(Me, to cop): Who owns the City of Los Angeles? The citizens.
(Cop leaves)
Ah, the idealism of youth. Of course, the cop is required to protect your rights. But most people are aware that cops main duty is to protect property and the status quo. They regularly oppose protesting.
(Cop, to me): You can't carry that sign -- it has profanity on it.
(Me, to cop): The Supreme Court says that there is no profanity in political protest.
(Cop, to me): I don't give a fuck what the Supreme Court says.
(They drive off, I go back to protesting, they come back, handcuff me, throw me over the hood of their car, and lecture me. They eventually take off the handcuffs, and leave, and I go back to protesting).
HILARIOUS how some people heap verbal abuse on a liberal, gay, anti-war vegetarian me simply because I--along with just about every single like-minded DC community activist I know--is completely fed up with ANSWER.
Oh, how dare we dislike these suburban revolutionary wannabe brats and their 30-odd posters per block, pasted NUMEROUS times per year, making our city look like shit after our years of working hard to clean it up. Just for disliking that, we're a bunch of petulant people without a sense of priorities, standing in the way of ANSWER's valiant efforts to lead their red-banner brigades against this war.
Get a grip. ANSWER is a joke, and those of us who hate this war, those of us who have actually given decades of our lives to public service for progressive good, have a very clear view of ANSWER, thank you very much.
For Chrissakes, they were friggin' founded by people who thought the Tiananmen massacre was the fault of the "counter-revolutionary" protesters. They defended Milosevic.
So yes, I cringe every time I see the anti-war movement aligned in any way, whatsoever, with ANSWER. And pardon me for being irritated, too, at their rat-assed posters all over a block I literally risked my life to improve (if the name Rayful Edmonds means anything to you, you'll get the drift).
P.S. One of the two persons arrested brought her 13yo daughter without any backup guardian, so the little girl was left to stand there crying while her mother was purposeful in her efforts to be carted away.
What courage, what valor, what parenting skills. But of course, how dare I point that out, when Iraqi children are dying! So screw the kid's fearful abandonment in the middle of DC that day, right? Priorities, people!
The cops carted her away while leaving a thirteen year old standing there, while they could have just handed her a fine? Wow, that changes my mind about the cops and citizens of D.C. who put up with this crap. /sarcasm
There wasn't a single DC cop involved in this, so everyone get that straight. These were US Park Police, and probably Uniformed Division Secret Service in the mix. DC police have no jurisdiction over National Park space, and they sure as hell don't go into Lafayette Park. DC cops know how to deal with the suburban poser looney ANSWER brats. Incidentally, ANSWER's lead poster boy and volunteer organizer is a Howard U. student who just LURVES himself the Cultural Revolution. Great, great group for us to rally around in their moment of glory here.
I don't think anyone here is "rallying around" ANSWER. They are pointing out the actions of the police as being excessive and just plain stupid from the standpoint of not wanting to make them martyrs. Let's face it, the police were the ones that turned this into the media circus that people like yourself are upset at. If they had not reacted like they did, there would be no story, just another set of fines. So why don't you place the blame where it belongs?
By the way, you are creating a really obvious straw man with your arguments. I don't respect people who use straw men.
Well that's funny, because I don't respect groups that fight paper tigers, by staging self-indulgent propaganda stunts, all in the name of slapping their "brand" across the growing anti-war sentiment in this country. I'm with that "straw man" lover David Corn in his clear distaste for ANSWER and their propaganda tactics, whether in Lafayette Park this weekend or in their jumping on the backs of anti-war marches:
Behind the Placards
The odd and troubling origins of today’s anti-war movement
By David Corn
http://www.laweekly.com/news/news/behind-the-placards/3458/
Do you even know what a straw man argument is?
Yes, and Exhibit A could be your claims that I'm wrong because this was DC cops, DC citizens are stupid for allowing DC cops to do this, and therefore DC residents are too stupid to have voting rights (all of which you posted previously), even though the originating article clearly indicates these were not DC police.
So yes, I have a very clear understanding of the term.
Actually I gathered from the video that there were both. Not to mention that the D.C. government was the one that fined them. Therefore complaints against the D.C. government and those that support them (including the police) is not a straw man argument.
But your argument is. Your straw man argument was when you stated that we "rally around" a group, and apparently "rally around" their message of Marxism. Nobody here has done any such thing.
And my argument still stands. You really should not be voting if you do not realize that any group, no matter who they are (even if their argument is just plain stupid) has the same rights as any other. Whether this group supported the Cultural Revolution or the Republican Revolution has no bearing on the matter. They have the same rights.
Period.
You gathered wrong: the video doesn't show a single DC cop. Not to mention the Wash Post article specifies it was the US Park Police--THREE TIMES.
But regarding your efforts to ensure this dialogue meets with the most stringent standards of forensics (calling DC "dumbshit citizenry" surely being a fine example of said standards), let's put your little test, well, to the test, specifically:
"You really should not be voting if you do not realize that any group, no matter who they are (even if their argument is just plain stupid) has the same rights as any other."
Okay, let's wager our voting rights. Newsflash: prepare to sit out the next presidential contest, otay, Otay? Because the DCMR (DC Municipal Regs) do simply and plainly provide the same rights to publicize a political point of view. All you have to do is put your org name and date on the poster, mail a copy to the city, and take them down after your event is over. Oh, and max three per block.
Pardon me for living here, but I'm aware of the regulatory equality, while you aren't (kinda like how I'm aware of how words spell out "U.S. PARK POLICE"--three times--instead of "DC POLICE," but I realize that's a sensitive matter for you). I wouldn't want some jackassed Repug group to semi-permanently paste upwards of 30 posters PER BLOCK all over this town, and I don't like it from ANSWER either.
But go ahead with your straw man. Just please give me one that can read.
Joel @ 137:
Since Corn has supported Bushco policies and downplayed the dangers to our society, he's not really a good choice of hero.
ANSWER is a radical group that has done come good work. Their rhetoric is entirely disaffiliated, so they see the police only in Marxist terms. You are right, Joel, about how they tend to use their self-awarded righteousness to bash other groups and in that way have offended any number of worthy cohorts in the fight against injustice, illegal war, illegal war activities, and corporate conspiracy to take over the government -- topics which they seem to think they own. But even then, aside from the red hot leadership like Becker, there are many in the rank and file who have more modulated views, so even ANSWER is not monolithic.
I don't have heroes. I do have feelings of approval and alignment with articles that are accurate; if you have factual issues with Corn's piece on ANSWER, then we have something to discuss.
The article does not state that there were no D.C. police involved and they do mention the D.C. government being involved and I saw what looked like two different groups of police. So sue me if I was wrong but ignore the greater message about those, including yourself, who support the D.C. government and these actions by the police.
And you still have not come to terms with the fact that you think that mentioning their support of Marxism should influence the assessment of how they were treated by the cops.
Oh, and in case that wasn't clear enough,
Fuck you, David Corn.
"The odd and troubling origins of today’s anti-war movement", as if ANSWER is the movement, as if ANSWER was the movement, as if David Corn publishing this screed against the entire anti-war movement in October 2002, right around the Iraq Resolution bs, wasn't helping Bushco foment their war.
Unlike Corn, those of us IN the anti-war movement have easily recognized ANSWER's rhetoric and politics for the views of ANSWER, and while ANSWER has fed radical nonsense to a lot of teenagers, most of the 'anti-war movement' was not born yesterday, and already know what's what, without Corn's overgeneralization, intended as it was to cast doubt on the opposition to the war Bush was OBVIOUSLY trying to start.
I heard Corn with Oliver Stone here in Los Angeles in 2004(?). It was DISGUSTING to hear Corn play pundit for the validity of Bush's war. He was roundly booed by the audience for several of his comments, and for his total lack of conscience about what Bushco has done. Maybe, I hope, he has wised up in the interim, but the political theology of ANSWER doesn't infect very many of the people who go to ANSWER-sponsored marches, Corn's suggestions otherwise notwithstanding.
Oh the article doesn't mention that no DC police were involved, so the absence of a fact allows the entrance of an assumed fact into a debate. And you're invoking guidelines? Sheesh. That crap would smell up a junior high school debate class, Otay.
I'm to terms with connecting ANSWER's tactics and their, well, tactics alright, and I've clearly and proudly stated it previously. They are Marxist and anarchist. If you understand what that means, it means THEY connect their beliefs with their tactics, including their propaganda tactics. This is Poli Sci 101, even your local community college might be in the position to help you out on this one. They feel the rules don't apply to them. Heck, they believe it's important to use cheap propaganda tactics to subvert the rules.
Yet, you suggest DC residents will only earn your respect once they realize that the rules should be applied equally.
Yeah, sure, you got SOME linear thought going on there, Otay!
Again, factual problems with the Corn article? Guess I missed that somewhere in your hissy fit, Paul.
Joel @ 144:
The popularity of ANSWER, such as that is (not much, compares well with the popularity of Ron Paul.
Both offer a rhetoric that enjoys some popular support. Neither can explain their odd support for anti-liberal views.
In the case of ANSWER, their rhetoric about supporting Milosevich and Hussein; in the case of Ron Paul, his support of the outdated concept of absolute sovereignty, which would strip away the concept of crimes against humanity in favor of the view that all nations are free to do whatever the leaders decide, without regard to international standards.
Both approaches are COWARDLY.
The Great Wheatpasting War of 2007 is not going to be remembered for shit. ANSWER is pathetic in trying to make a mountain out of such molehills. And the Ron Paul supporters who ignore the ROLLBACK of basic rights that Ron Paul supports will also not be remembered for shit once their hero fails at the polls (even if people don't hear about his 'other' views, the ones that would strip away their reproductive rights, their right to sue the government, their right to federally-established citizen rights).
Again, we are not talking about ANSWER here. We are talking about the police and how they took what should have been a small incident and amplified it into a media event - by playing into ANSWER's desires, if you want to say it. But play they did, by over-reacting. Police are supposed to defuse a situation, not magnify it.
The political ideology of ANSWER is moot. What matters is how ANSWER acted during this incident, which in this case appears to be quite mild. If the police here were smart and media savvy, they would have reacted in kind, and countered with restraint. Then nobody would be talking about this, and ANSWER would have no pulpit to preach from.
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