Hardball: "What do you say? Why did they fall?"
By Nicole Belle Monday Sep 10, 2007 10:01pm
A visibly emotional Sen. Joe Biden and Chris Matthews discuss the ramifications of Gen. Petraeus's surprisingly unvarnished answer that he couldn't say that our presence in Iraq was making us any safer.
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MATTHEWS: But if the commander over there can't justify the deaths of these soldiers, because it serves a national purpose and makes us safer then what the hell are we doing there? [..]
BIDEN: ...This is...this is heartwrenching. They refer to every one of those bodies as a fallen angel. They put six fallen angels on that aircraft. And you know, Chris, um...what do you say? Why did they fall? What do you say? What do you say to their parents? What do you say to those, those troops? And you know what? They're incredible, Chris. I'm not one of these guys that gets on every time and talks about "I love the military" and the rest. But let me tell you something, Chris: I've been over there 8 times. These kids are brave. They get in these vehicles every damn day. They ride out on those roads, some of them having been hit already, knowing that their chance to get blown away is overwhelming and they do it every day.
Meanwhile, news comes from Iraq that rather proves the point that it's not safer in Iraq, much less here in the US: US Headquarters in Baghdad Attacked; 1 Dead, 11 Injured. That's right, Petraeus's office got hit.
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IMPEACH
Amazing!
Marty @ 1:
With more evidence every day coming out, we do need to impeach. Petraeus even says that there was no al Qaeda in Iraq before the ibvasion.
Oh c'mon, we know that NYC is less safe than Baghdad. I mean, Bill Clinton's office in Harlem gets carbombed at least once a week... doesn't it?
As an aside, why are they using the term "fallen angel?" That is what Satan is. An angel who has fallen from grace.
Petreaus' office just got hit... hmmm...
Obviously because Al Qaeda* wants a Democratic president!
*in Iraq (didn't exist before we invaded)
From The article:
Looks like the average Iraqi has a much more realistic grip on the situation than Patraeus, Al-Maliki, or Bush. Sadly, it is an assessment that's too realistic for most Americans to admit.
It's true, but what would happen if you were a news anchor on a major TV network or in a reporter in the White House Press Corps and you went on record saying it's true? You'd be fired, attacked daily in print for a month, and blacklisted.
Fired, attacked, and blacklisted. This is what it means to tell the truth nowadays in America.
Anyone planning to do anything about that anytime soon?
Matthews sees some light through the fog of Petraeus' testimony. Go toward the light, Chris. Go toward the light.
You know, because, "supporting the troops" means putting them into the line of fire to shore up a failing strategy cooked up by coddled and sheltered think-tank philosophers (aka the neocons).
Even the Iraqi's think it's all propaganda in front of an election........sad
swim2thesea @ 5:
Exactly, what is this "fallen angel" bullshit. Those are dead soldiers and Marines, not angels. Those are our fellow citizens, not some fairy-like creature dreamed of by rapturists.
Those are husbands and brothers, dads and uncles, formerly live human beings, sacrificed at the altar of Billy Kristol and and Norman podhoretz, urged on by a cabal of pundits, "serious" commentators and talking heads.
Corpse is the word used for dead bodies, and that's what they are, corpses to mark the march of folly, the grossly barbaric and inhumane manner in which our nation has waged a pre-emptive war on a nation that was no threat, posed no threat and was no enemy of ours.
Fucking fallen angels indeed.
Petraeus has long been a pro-Bush, pro neocon drummajor. Go back far enough and you find him claiming to find bio-weapons labs before the whole WMD excuse got categorically discredited.
Why did Iraq fail?
Oh I don't know, maybe it had something to do with the absolute arrogant notion that if the US removed a secular dictator and tried to put a theocractic society in its place that somehow the warring tribes would put aside their religious differences and work together under a banner of peace? Ya THINK?!
If your first assumption is wrong all conclusions based on that assumption will, at the very least, be equally wrong.
The same goes for your own religious beliefs, you conservative cowards.
biden won't end the u.s. occupation. so baghdad h.q. gets hit 6 years after the pentagon h.q. got hit. it seems our military cannot secure their h.q.
I saw this live and I thought that Chris' passion was quite amazing for a change. Is he finally coming around?
The insurgient Tet offensive . Deja vu all over again .
I have to say that tonight I was impressed with Matthews. Wish he had been this way from the very beginning
if biden keeps up with the fallen angel nonsense, larry craig will be sitting next to him in the restroom.
# 15 & #17: Don't hold your breath....by this time tomorrow, Tweety will be back
on the "other bandwagon". He is as patriotic and concerned about the soldiers in
the field of fire as is bush-lite.. NO creditibility whatsoever.
At the hearing today, there was no mention of the humanitarian crisis, by any of the senators. From the BBC. today "Damascus says it is struggling to cope with an estimated 1.4m Iraqi refugees. "The crisis is said to be costing Syria around $1bn a year and has placed exceptional strain on the country's housing, health and education systems."
Tweety goes whichever way the wind blows him(no pun intended)
Wasn't Biden head of the committee when the AUMF was debated? He help create this mess with that bipartisan bullshit he and lugar came up with. He has blood on his hands too. He is feigning ignorance, but the truth is he is culpable in this shyt.
mudshark @ 21:
Ususally amazingly true, but I thought I heard real anguish in his voice tonight.
Stop funding the war Biden! At least McCain was right about one thing, if the Democrats are really against this war then they should stop funding it. Biden and the other hypocritical Democratic candidates have voted over a dozen times to continue the bloodshed while simultaneously calling the war unnecessary and immoral. Since the inception of the War Powers Act, the only way our troops have come home is by Congress cutting funding. They know this. No, this is not "George Bush's war." The Dems control Congress, which makes it their war now. Stop the emotional cable show act and cut funding. Shame on Biden for having the audacity to displace blame.
LibertyLover @ 23:
Wish that were true, but like Freddie Boy Thompson, he too can act..
Manila Ryce @ 24:
[Deleted. Poster's request-Sitemonitor]
Chris Matthews has been on of the MSM's most outspoken figures against the war since BEFORE it started. Are you folks trying to sound ignorant???
spero @ 28:
Do you watch him regularly on "Hard Ball"?..He's a clown with many different faces.
Alecia @ 20:
I've probably got these numbers wrong but, from what I remember there are over 3 million Iraqi refugees since our invasion. And we've allowed only a couple hundred into the U.S.
That is just fucking shameful.
I agree with those who've already said that Chrissy will have a different tone tomorrow. That's why I stopped watching him. Well, that and Ann Coulter.
Remember, being antiwar is not a minority position, not a fringe position. We are the majority, they are the fringe. The lunatics are running the assylum.
It is a bitter pill to know that every death, American or Iraqi is because of a team of liars protecting a mentally ill coward.
Jumpy @ 30:
You are correct...2 million have moved "out of country" to neighboring areas and 1 million
have been transplanted into other regions within Iraq...w/majority, I've heard, being
Sunnis who had to relocate because of the the Shities...
Spero's right. I have other issues with Matthews, but over the last 4 years, with the exception of a couple of stupid comments praising Bush, he's been against the war. Even John Amato, host of this site agrees.
spero @ 28:
Its sad that I've become so sensitize to political figure's fake grief that it took me a couple of minutes to realize Joe Biden was sincere.
Fun Fact I learned from Sam Harris. Countries, such as the Netherlands, that did not support the war take in more refugees than we do.
Joseph "I was born a poor black share cropper's son a small log cabin before winning the Tour de France while my dad worked the coal mines of England" Biden sounded all choked up there. Anyone think he's really choked up or is the guy who wrote his speech choked up?
Keep hearing about how troops will be coming home for the holidays. How about clarification if they will be going back.
This "home by Christmas" crap has been sung before.
Nicole,
I think Senator Biden is not actually upset in the way you think he is.
I know when people are lying, perhaps not what is said, but definitely in their body language. This guy's visible gestures make this a show, a farce.
I think his mannerisms DO NOT reflect someone who is actually upset. He is doing this for the CAMERA only. It's just to make you think he is upset.
Come on, as a woman you have that extra added bonus of having a sixth sense when it comes to these sorts of things. If it weren't for women, us dudes would be all like this Biden guy.
see1988 @ 36:
phoney as a six dollar bill!
dreg @ 38:
I've heard, but canNOT substantiate, that Biden went to Hollywood within last year and
spent time w/Freddie Boy Thompson and received some "acting lessons".
Doggiebobo @ 29:
Yes, I do. Mainly because he's one of the few cable news hosts that isn't just an ideological character actor (see: O'Reilly, Hannity, Colmes, Olbermann, Tucker).
There he goes again with that "we need 67 votes to override a veto" garbage. You don't need 67 to just STOP funding the occupation. You need 40, but that jackass Biden has already pledged to vote for continued funding of Bush's occupation.
Fake tears from a professional liar.
LibertyLover @ 15:
I agree, I have stopped watching Hardball altogether because of Mattews pathetic performances, however, I had the TV on today because of the hearings and caught Hardball. It was the best showing he has had in at least two years.
Oh another thing,
Biden is catering to the religious right when he talks about the story of "6 fallen angels that came out of that aircraft."
This speech he had with Matthews was scripted. The democrats, now that they have more control in government, see the benefits of pandering to the religious right. Biden uses the same techniques of talking that the neo-cons use. He quickly drops lines here and there so that when religious people are watching it, they have part of their beliefs on TV and with their leaders.
Next time Biden speaks publically, maybe you could look out for the same sort of techniques? It's very subtle, and if he does it again (he has in the past), I hope that will convince you he is not on our side? Or what our side should be?
Doggiebobo @ 40:
I wouldn't be surprised at all....our society like totally worships celebrities, so if our politicians show that same quality that people wil listen?
Cat Atomic @ 42:
40(Forty)???? I thought 51 votes were needed; just a simple majority.
Doggiebobo @ 46:
Wait, I am wrong....that is in the Senate; but in the House(Where funding is initiated)
out of the 435 total, 2/3rds is needed....Am I correct??
What a bunch of bullshit. I am surprised Biden didn't cry, yet he is going to vote to give Bush what he want's.
Bring them home.
nirak @ 48:
I agree. My respect for Biden rates right up with McCain which is to say I have no respect for either. Biden should just shut the hell up.
dreg @ 38:
Actually, dreg, in this particular case, I think the anguish is genuine. Unlike the administration who started this occupation, Joe will have skin in the game. His son is set to deploy to Iraq at the beginning of next year. I spoke to his campaign after he publicly stated that he would vote for any troop funding. I wanted to know why he wouldn't refuse to fund the occupation to force Bush/Cheney's hand and the aide said that this is very personal for him, that he wants to make sure that Bush/Cheney will never hurt the troops to make a partisan point--something he clearly thinks is possible.
Help.... Funding for bush's war in Iraq....
As I understand, funding inititates in the House of Representatives where there are
435 members..consisting of 231 Dems and 212 Repigs.
If approved by the House, then it goes to the U.S. Senate...100 members of which
49 are Dems, 48 or Repigs and 2 are "Independent"(counting LIE-berman).
My question? What vote total does it take in the House to disapprove funding..number
and/or percentage?
And,
What vote or percentage does it take in the Senate to uphold the House's disapproval?
Anyone know?
tweety plays both sides just to maximize his paycheck, which is the main problem with the media - no different from politics or anything else. . .
Nicole Belle @ 51:
Maybe Biden needs to visit w/Senator Webb...he too has a son; in Iraq at present, and
Webb will vote against (nay) as to funding..
HumboldtBlue @ 27:
It seems MENSA has sent another hitman after me. Talk about not being able to admit mistakes. If you'd like to actually dispel my points with a counter argument, rather than simply telling me to "shut the fuck up," perhaps you'd be worth listening to. As anyone who's been paying attention for the past 5 years knows, none of these things you love to blame Bush for would've been possible without the complicity of the Democratic leadership.
Nicole Belle @ 51:
He wanted to make sure Bush/Cheney would never hurt the troops to make aartisan point? what the hell has gone on for the last four years?
Fuck Joe Biden and fuck his son. Biden was my Senator when I was still in high school, he was a condescending dipshit then and he's nothing more than a pandering shill now.
If he wants his son to be safe bring the troops home now! As if this war suddenly becomes personal for Joe Biden is a reason to keep it going. What a coward.
Yeah, you keep on with that "it's the Democrats war now" bullshit, straight off Powerline. I wasn't sent as a hitman, and as for your mensa reference and my "dispelling" of your points, here ya go, have a coke and a smile and shut the fuck up. Does that make you feel better?
Fucking Biden.
"What do you say, what do you say?"
Tell them the truth Biden. You layed down. You cowered. You cringed. You did NOTHING to stop this from happening when it was a political risk. You let this train run right off the cliff and waited to do anything until the American people got way past you in opinion polls and it was safe.
You and all your Senate/House colleagues are garbage for letting this happen. As are Matthews and all his craven, pathetic, hack, pseudo-journalist ilk.
All your kind, all you cowardly beltway insiders who let this happen have a long, long way to go to redeem yourselves.
Biden is the man.
Tommorow Chris will be sucking the corn out of Bush's shit and telling us it's gold.
This is how they should have felt before allowing a war to have started in the first place. I can't tell any longer if their anger is real or if they're trying to improve ratings and get votes. Never trust a politician has reached a new level.
Did anyone else catch that they call dead soldiers 'fallen angels'?
Fallen angels rebelled against God & are in Hell with Lucifer,... real nice, dummies.
Have some respect for the dead & get a damned 1st grade Sunday school education.
HumboldtBlue @ 57:
I've never even heard of Powerline before, but anyone familiar with me knows I'm no "friend of Israel". What a juvenile attempt to dismiss genuine liberal principles by associating them with right-wing rhetoric. In fact, your smear tactics and name calling are symptomatic of the right in general. I'm not saying you share the same politics, only the same intellectual bankruptcy. Well, the attempt was at least made to have a civil discussion with you. As far as the coke goes, I'm weary of drinking the same kool-aid you've been sipping. Thanks anyway though. We're done here.
One of Biden's best performances. At least he didn't get all hokey here.
The Democrats should fund the trip home for every American soldier.
I think that was for real. Neither of those guys were acting.
Hell, it IS jaw-dropping and astonishing that the warmongers' designated Surge-promoter couldn't bring himself to say Americans are safer because of the Surge. It's fuckin' appalling. That's the final admission of folly, spoken at Bush/Cheney's chosen venue, the report to Congress on the results of the Surge.
This hearing was supposed to be a Cakewalk. Petraeus was supposed to be Greeted As a Liberator.
Piss and moan about Biden all you like. I'd regard him as a fraud if he merely sneered or glibly made political statements. His anguish is a legitimate human response to Petraeus' PR exercise, which backfired after a ridiculous buildup that lasted months.
it's about the contracts from the government. about 14 trillion with all the contracting , the pentagon budget and the special appropriations bills. these two pretentious insiders will lose their sincerity once the red light goes out.
if you had a choice between being killed(wellstone) and being bought(biden, LIEberman, Hillary, Obama & the DLC) which would you choose?
fact is it was about cashing in on the US trough. look at what has been paid out! just as in watergate, FOLLOW THE MONEY!
I'm surprised chrissie is not having a manflesh moment. then again, Biden's hairplugs ARE a turnoff!
These two are about as sincere as I would be if I said I believed them. Spare me.
sincerity: once you can fake that, politics and punditry becomes very easy.
Doggiebobo @ 25:
Biden was academy award caliber tonight. Watching these two Very Serious People perform for the camera one would never think that they...yes them! Had anything to do with the horror of
The MeatGrinder.
Nope, a sitting U.S. Senator and one of the largest talking heads in the media both of whom pimped and shilled for Mr. Decider's bloodbath....
And now butter wouldn't melt in their mouths!
What a pair of unregenerate pus-sacks.
Disgusting display worthy of the Roman Empire at it's very worst.
Matthews CAN sound very convincing in his stance against the war, and I really do respect that.
However, to state, as some have, that he was one of this wars most ardent critics before the invasion is absurd. I remember his gushing priase during Shock and Awe and his admiration for Chimpy's swagger across the deck of the USS Abe Lincoln.
Give me a break. He sounds great today, but tommorrow? He could be telling his audience only Guiliani is strong enough to save the country from terrorism, or that Bush can still save his administration from ultimate shame in history.
You never know with Matthews
Manila Ryce @ 55:
That is not true. Bush does not need the Dem leadership on board to continue his war. He only needs enough votes to sustain his veto. There are plenty to do that still. Whether or not the Dem leadership has been complicit is debatable, but he certainly does not NEED them to continue his war war. In fact, I would argue that he never needed them even to start it. He just needed an excuse and he was more than willing to just make one up.
By the way, I am not endorsing the stupid STFU attack on you, just saying that you are wrong about Bush needing the Dem leaders' support.
Wow, good acting Joe Biden. Go pray for God's forgiveness because you are part of the reason we are at war there. You should have never voted for this war in 2002. There's no excuse. You knew better but you thought it would be politically beneficial to jump on the war bandwagon. Go to hell Joe.
Amazing clip......
Zeta @ 70:
...smh
Some comments on here are from mind readers. I think you have to be either very cynical or disingenuous to think either of them were faking. I learned a lot about some posters on here more so than I learned from their comments about Biden and Matthews.
I would like to know how you can read motivation into what they said? First, you are watching it through a screen that came from a camera. With sound. By no means, were any of us in the studio. We are receiving Hardball, secondhand, filtered. This, to me, is the only rational, reasonable explanation that someone would have to say 'they were faking it'.
Being skeptical is healthy and good for the brain. Being cynical is intellectual laziness. Imo.
IMPEACH the awol wanker shit-for-brains bush.
he is a fucking bastard fascist.
It amazes me the cover that these Beltway people need. They have been given a small bit of the truth and now Joe and Tweety can sound all indignant. They knew the truth years ago and now that someone in a god damn uniform says something half true they can act all huffy. Get a fucking spine.
David Betray Us will memory hole his office being hit as he dreams of book deals and speaking fees
" in all likelihood, when the Democratic president pulls US troops out in summer of 2009, all hell is going to break loose...
In other words, the Democratic president risks being Fordized when s/he withdraws from Iraq, by the aftermath. A one-term president associated with humiliation abroad and high inflation at home? Maybe I should say, Carterized. The Republican Party could come back strong in 2012 and then dominate politics for decades"
http://www.juancole.com/
Why don't we emphasize again and again that there is not anything for us to accomplish in Iraq? We are the midst of a civil war and our actions can have no aim except to postpone the inevitable so Bush can try to escape responsibility for his disaster? Keep yelling this. Eventually it will get across. For further discussion see
randomabsurdities.wordpress.com
Stunnning. Just...stunning. I hope supporters of Bush's war see this piece, but I'm afraid too few of them will.
That's exactly the point, ey? The kids in the military are braver than any of the politicians sending them to the warfront on false grounds. Bush is probably scared of damned spiders. Consider Bush talking to Putin, ex-KGB. The chicken and the hawk. Amusing until you realize these people have actual powers....
Send in the Bush twins!
Draft young Republicans!
Tshober @ 69:
Complicity goes further than votes. Veto power is only relevant if you actually have a spending bill to vote on. While many Dems are not actively supporting Bush, they are accomplices in his tyranny by not taking drastic measures like filibustering or impeachment. It only takes one senator to filibuster war spending. The Democratic presidential candidates seem to be exploiting the war to get votes just as much as the Republicans are exploiting 9/11. "Get me into office and I'll end it". The only two I've noticed correctly stating that it can and should be ended now are Gravel and Kucinich.
HumboldtBlue @ 11:
Another winner! Finally this site is bringing out the best in America. Either that or people have really woken up and are ready to take back our nation.
It made me physically ill, no joke, puking sick, to watch those two gutless fucks pretend they are motivated about the war. Hairball has been at best, non confrontational and most of the time sycophantic is its support of the bush/Chaney crime festival. Then Biden, who is two sandwiches shy of a pick nick, does his best Norma Ray impression trying to convince voters that he gives a fuck.
"I've been there 8 times" Big fucking deal. How many times did you vote to continue this war? When did you ever filibuster an emergency spending bill? Name one fucking thing you ever did to end this blood bath? Biden was just telling Tim Russert how he wants to spend more money to buy new toys for the troops. The new Cougar troop transport which can get blown up and nobody dies. What a load of crap.
These guys love the war too much to ever think of letting it end.
JustSickOfIt @ 84:
Word is that the Cougar guys were very happy about Biden mentioning their product during the debates. I wouldn't be surprised if the makers of all these wonderful toys were also major campaign contributers.
Thank you Sen Biden........................................
Why is it that Mike Gravel was vilified for saying that our soldiers are dying in vain in IRAQ (and Vietnam), while Biden gets a pat on the back from tweety for basically stating the same thing? What.. Biden has better hair?
We know the obvious, it's just painful and actually horrifying, to admit that it's so.
The question remains: what do we do with this truth?
It's all pretty sickening. I just don't believe anything that comes out of this administration, and clearly Patraeus was put there to support Bush's policy, and clearly he has grave doubts about whether Iraq is making us safer. We know it's not. In fact, if anything, it's made us less safe by serving as a recruiting and training ground for future jihadists.
I don't believe Chris Matthews, but Biden didn't seem credible either. I think they both ACTED very well.
However, I agree with what both of them said, that this war is wrong, and it's time to bring our troops home.
I don't get it: First, Matthews is enraged about the MoveOn ad because they're critizising Patraeus, because he's wearing a uniform, now he's enraged about Patraeus himself although he's wearing this holy piece of clothing!
Anybody else notice Biden didn't answer the question?
Getting emotional is all well and good but if you have no plans to pull our troops out of Iraq and you basiclly endorse Petraeus' assessment of a decade or two of occupation, then tears mean nada.
Biden is a one man dog and pony show.
All said, it was a good piece. Hopefully it snapped some sense into the fence-sitters, etc. (No hope of the wing-nuts coming around.) They don't like to move till they see people angry on their TV, then they follow the crowd (or keep shopping).
WHY ISN'T THIS EXCHANGE BETWEEN WARNER & PETRAEUS ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE NY TIMES?
Maybe MoveOn and all the rest of the anti-war forces, blogs, liberal media, Dems, &c. should consider a new strategy, a new tactic: shame Bush into calling it quits a.s.a.p. That's right. Make an appeal to his Christian conscience: we're giving you one last chance to make your mark in history, a final opportunity to prevent characterization as "the Worst President America ever had." Put it somewhat in these terms: "Mr. President, you've done NOTHING to earn a place in history as a leader who did the right thing. Everything you have done has been wrong. You have fucked up over and over again. As it is, you are going to be judged by history as the Worst President Ever. But here is your last best chance to edge out Franklin Pierce and a couple of other miserable turds and avoid the dreaded 'W' label (you should pardon the unintended pun): Announce that you will begin immediately to withdraw all troops, expeditiously and as safely as possible, giving them a chance to sing, in unison, with Bing Crosby's Ghost, 'I'll.....be HOME...for Christmas.....'" You guess he'd go for it? Uh...no...no, that guy doesn't HAVE any conscience!
STAY THE COURSE!
Manila Ryce @ 24:
no this is and always will be shrubs war....and to blame the Dems for not wanting to leave our troops without funding and equipment is just dum!
I find it almost laughable that the main thrust of this thread is criticism versus support for Matthews and Biden. The truly important and substantive issue is Petraues' refusal to say the war is benefitting America's security interests. It's not that he doesn't know the answer, he most certainly does. He is no dummy. He is definitely Bush's point guy for selling the war and they very carefully scripted him so he could studiously avoid giving any answers he was not comfortable with. Over the two days he demurred many times so he could just foucs on the mission, the objective, the war etc. and left all the other larger questions alone. Suddenly when he is completely cornered, by a well-respected senior Republican that he really has no choice but to respond to (remember, no Republicans backed him into a corner during the House hearings) the best he can do is say, "I don't know." I think he went as far as he could and could not bring himself to tell that one huge overarching lie because he does not truly believe it. Perhaps what remaining character he has a a leader peeked through at that moment.
To me, this is huge. The guy Bush annointed to sell the war for him, so he could say, "See, I do listen to my generals. I'm not some crazy, obsessed nut case," just said we are sending our people to their deaths, we are spending our money, we are straining our armed forces and I can't really say that there is a reason for it.
If there is any integrity in Congress at all, this should be the tipping point. They should send Bush a bill that requires redeployment out of all major cities over a short term, eventually using troops perhaps to secure the borders, which should have been done long ago, thereby creating the environment that not only allows, but compels the Iraqis to sort this mess out. I thinkwe would also thereby create an environment where the international community would step in and then there would still be some folks there to help a real process, not a fake one. Coupled with that, start bringing folks home on a regular schedule, close those damn bases (yes, even Pat Buchanan understands that our presence in the physical Muslim world is a trigger for violence against the US both abroad and at home).
If Bush vetoes such a bill, so be it. Just let him know he's not getting another one like last time. Make it his decision to defund.
What's the best guess on today's sping trying to annul what Patreaus said yesterday??????
Angels? Oh, fuck me.
B. friggin' S.!
The troops aren't "brave", they're murdering accomplices. You want a hero? Show me a soldier who puts down his gun and refuses to take part in this disgusting rampage. These are a bunch of frat boys getting their rocks off, or hoodwinked poor whites, latinos and blacks who fell for the crap the military was selling. They should know better by now.
I don't support murdering innocent people. If you don't either, then you DON'T support the troops.
Biden- yet another spineless Democrat who cannot say what he really feels.
Wow... Chris got emotional, too... Keep that inside you, Chris. Use if when a chickenhawk or a neocon spews their guilt as patriotic fervor and blast them back to where they belong!
LibertyLover @ 15:
All evidence points to Tweety being seriously bi-polar so I wouldn't count on him ever being consistent in his views.
When Gen. Petraeus said "I don't know," that was the end of this war.
That one sentence was the Patraeus repot.
Game Over
Jimmy D. @ 99:
This is truly an ignorant comment. I don't expect even a small fraction here at C&L support such views.
Doggiebobo @ 29:
Not a clown with many faces so much but perhaps he has multiple personalities.....
see1988 @ 36:
see, if you dont know genuine emotion when you see it, you must be a rethug pig.
One has only to read about the bomb threats to overseas US bases to realize they're not safer, either.
I think Petraeus slipped up and said the right thing!
He is probably getting his @$$ chewed for it.
I cannot believe that he wasn't coached on that question...
They have referred to the soldiers that died in war as fallen angels before, I specifically remember reading a book about war by that title. It referred the war in Vietnam, and if you ask me, I feel sorry for those poor guys over there fighting the politicians' war. It isnt the soldiers' fault, so dont take anything away from them. Biden is covering his ass becuase he and all of those other idiots are too pussy to do anything decisive because it might possibly come back to bite them in the ass. Petraeus finally stopped supporting Bush by letting this slip in my opinion, probably because he is tired of all of his fucking soldiers getting blown up or shot. I know you all think that he has an agenda, but if he is a real general and not a bastard, he really cares about his boys. That is what the army is supposed to be like. He will probably lose his post, and maybe he wanted to keep his hands from having even more blood on them. And Matthews was probably doing what he was paid to. He is on national tv, I would bet he can act at least a little.
Jumpy @ 6:
The group, Al Qaeda in Iraq was fake. It was proven recently. Al Qaeda wanted to put an Iraqi face on the organization. Look it up.
iraqconcilable @ 16:
We won the Tet Offensive. Cronkite declared the "war was over". Again, it might make sense for some of you to look at history. And while you're on that chapter, look up how many MILLIONS of innocents died in South Vietnam, Laos, and Thailand after our "peace with honor" withdrawl.
24-
Yes, the democrats in congress can try to stop funding the war...but that will only cause more chaos. don't forget the president has the power to veto what congress gives him. the white house has proved time and time again that despite all evidence to the contrary that the supposed surge is "working" to improve security in iraq that it will find every way to keep our troops there. we won't leave iraq if funding is cut...the troops will simply have to do without proper weapons, armor, and support....oh wait...they are already doing that! this is coming from someone married to an iraq vet. the troops, along with the iraqi citizens are on the bottom of the iraq war totem pole. They are simply policing the country while simultaneously building US embassies and military bases, which was the only purpose behind this war in the first place. the government "needs" iraq as a central base of operations in the middle east. we have military bases in 3/4 of the world's countries and iraq is smack dab in the middle of a volatile region. i don't care if people think the following statement is liberal bs...the US is quietly building an empire, economically, socially, politically. we americans need to wake up and take account of what are government is doing to other countries. period.
ralph @ 53:
Yeah, because the OBJECTIVE media need to pick a side. Come on now.
Melissa @ 111:
Did you forget our HUGE base in Qatar?
If Chris Matthews hasn't figured out by yet why we are in Iraq (HINT Chris you the media built up and pushed the drumbeat to war, you, NBC, ABC, CBS, Fox are all responsible for it. Couldn't resist those ratings while we were headed to war now could ya) As a result the American people pushed for it, Our Congress gave a blank check to the President and poof now we want to act like it didn't happen. Grow up already Chris, you used to be a respectable commentator, now your nothing but a liberal mouthpiece.
swim2thesea @ 5:
They use the term Fallen Angel because of a text in the bible.. I can't remember it completely but 6 angels fall from the sky. Many people believed it had to do with a space shuttle mission that went wrong many years ago.. But, thats is why the term is used..Just figured id throw that out there
Oh, it's somewhere in Revelations if you want to look it up..
CMD @ 113
No i haven't forgotten our base in Qatar. That is where a majority of our troops go before they head to Iraq or Afghanistan. It is where my husband called me to tell me he made it ok so far. Our government has said over and over again, obviously in different context, that Iraq is central in getting a hold on the middle east in terms of keeping an eye on Iran, Syria, Lebanon, etc.
JohnnyThief @ 62:
like anything they teach you at sunday school is 'education'. talking snakes and men in the sky, zombies with flying powers and all that utter bullshit
dreg @ 38:
Agreed. In fact, just a few short weeks ago while watching one of the Democratic presidential debates, it was Joe Biden who concluded we could NOT get out of Iraq. That we had to sustain our presence there for at least another year and then draw down over a period of time because the military and government contractors couldn't just "up and leave" without being placed in harms way. Huh?
Now he wants us to believe that it is so heartwrenching ( because of a ride on an aircraft with "fallen angels" ) that it REALLY IS TIME to get out entirely. This coming on the heels of the beating he has been taking for not following the majority opinion across our nation that we must bring our troops home NOW.
And as to the term "Fallen Angel", I can tell you this. Having served in the military on active duty for 10 years, and another 10 as a government worker, SOMEONE in the public affairs office heard someone say that they need to come up with a term that can be used as a designated title - in order to add significance to the "cargo". Well, I can tell you this. It wouldn't matter a damn bit to the average soldier what term they use because they are "brothers" who lost their lives. Making up a title for some feel-good marketeer is an exact microcosm of what this way has seemed to be: a freakin Madison Ave. attempt at selling a war that has no substance and must be "tricked out" in order to make it more palatable.
Freaking disgusting. And Chris Matthews? This guy blows back, forth and all over - in more directions than a plastic flag on top of an ocean buoy in the Pacifc.
IMPEACH.
navydavy @ 96:
Agreed. This war belongs 99.99% to Bush.
Stopping funding would likely accomplish nothing useful. A stubborn and unfeeling president that was willing to let our troops in the field suffer for lack of funding or to defy the will of the congress by spending funds targeted for other areas of government to continue his war would be able to do so at the very least until his term ends. The Dems, who actually care about the health and safety of our troops, are not willing to to play chicken with Bush when winning that confrontation means making the assumption that Bush actually cares about our service men and women and would react rationally. This is an assumption I am glad to see they are smart enough to not make.
The only way the Bush Iraq occupation will end is if significant numbers of Republicans abandon Bush or if he leaves office. In the end, the Dems are powerless to stop him without Republican help.
Slocum @ 103:
Please tell me what is ignorant about my comment?
What part is incorrect?
[...] administration (I’ve heard Condi use it at least) refer to soldiers who are KIA as “Fallen Angels.” Traditionally fallen angels are angels who have become apostate or otherwise opposed God [...]
Marty @ 1:
Tell you what, the moment the House moves to impeach the little dolt,
you can bet that he will attack Iran that evening.
God Damn, I like Joe Biden a lot more now.
@124: no shit.
Damn, he made me cry during that segment.
One day I'm hoping, with all the hate in my damn heart, that Bush and all his cohorts be tried and found guilty for committing war crimes againts humanity.
These sons of bitches MUST be taken out of power now!..
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