Dems balk at MoveOn censure resolution
By Steve Benen Tuesday Sep 11, 2007 7:21amThe far-right Washington Times reports this morning that Republican demands for a resolution condemning MoveOn.org are being ignored.
Democratic congressional leaders and the party's presidential candidates yesterday refused to repudiate a liberal group's ad questioning Gen. David H. Petraeus' character.
Capitol Hill Democrats rejected a call for votes in both chambers to condemn the attack newspaper ad, run by MoveOn.org, saying Republicans are trying to take attention off what they call the president's failed Iraq policy.
Good. MoveOn is not the problem. If the right took coming up with a coherent Iraq policy half as seriously as they take some intemperate newspaper ad, the nation would be far better off.
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WOW.WOW.WOW
Republicans never attack the character of others. I can see why they're making this an issue.
Wimpy repubes scared of MoveOn! *cue scary organ music*
I think a 4-star general can handle a bit of criticism on paper. And, of course, nice shiny object for repubes to hide behind.
Good on the Dems. Now, I'll really be impressed if they something really right like deny further funding for the tragic circus called Iraq! THAT would really be something.....
I disagree. MoveOn, through their choice of words, gave the Republicans an easy play.
The Democrats need to draw the line and cut off funding.
Bush is slated to address the nation on Thursday evening and
make more false promisesunveil his plans for withdrawing up to 30,000 troops by next summer.Let's see, and the Republicans completely disowned the Swift Boat folks for their character assassination of a decorated Viet Nam war vet? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
I swear that if the Republicans have their way we will need to change our slogan to America, home of the...People? maybe, we sure aren't the Land of the Free anymore. I just don't understand how anyone can be so ignorant that they would support the Republican party at this point...I mean what do they need to do? I convinced that anyone in the Bush Administration could walk up and knock on a Republican family's door and when they answered the door the Bush official could shit all over the entire family...parents, kids, grandma and the family dog, and all the knuckle-headed Republicans would say is "well, it's going to be a hot summer and they are just trying to keep us cool."
I really hate these people! (not the fictitious family mentioned above.)
How come we did not hear of calls to censure the swift-boat attacks or attackers on John Kerry. The Republicans need to be reminded.
Sigh @ 5:
They were going to get right on it, but they wanted to wait until after the election!
Hey....take it easy on the Republicans....
Their top candidate can't get enough fundraising (until he gets corporatized help)
Their self-hating gay epidemic is hitting on all cylinders...
Their own party loyalists aren't happy with them (they want to bomb iran yesterday)
They have to find something to give to their puppet egomaniacal republican registered editors, producers, & board members in the MSM something to do while Paris Hilton, Britney Spears, Michael Vick, & Jenna Bush aren't 'newsworthy' at the moment....
Plus Fox Noise....is running out of 'good news' in Iraq to report...
Sigh @ 5:
That's what I was going to say. A lot of people knew that the Swift Boat ads were a lie, and the Republicans did dick all to condemn them... so why should the Dems condemn a much more factual ad?
How about Ari Fleischer's group?
Their hypocrisy has absolutely no boundaries.
The repubs are using the ad as a red herring to take attention away from the pathetic report on the war.
I'm not crazy about the ad and I probably wouldn't have put it in the paper. That being said, Petraeus' report was predictable as hell and one must wonder how much pressure was on him from the white house?
haah- that means that they have nothing...yet again... sad, really.
Sigh @ 5:
They attack Move-On because facts and the truth scare them. They understand and embrace lies like the swift boat folks put out, because it is they only way they can further their agenda.
"Why," replied Sen. Kerry, Massachusetts, "one could say he was swift boated!"
i liked the ad. and i think the attack is meant to prevent similar truth-telling.
pissed off patricia @ 13:
My guess is the part about not knowing whether the Iraq War was making America safer was not orchesrated by the WH.
Pine Nut, NC @ 18:
And yet, do we see any coverage of this astonishing admission by Petraus in response to a Senior Repub Senator's question, no less?
Pine Nut, NC @ 19:
oh, i'm fuggin up big time this morning, sorry for the disjointed posts
If petreaus lied in front of congress to keep us in a war, the ad is totally appropriate.
Colin powell made the same speech to get us into this war, now petreaus is giving a false and misleading speech to keep us in this war.
pissed off patricia @ 13:
It wasn't entirely predictable in my view.
I did not expect him to tell us that he has no idea if the war makes America safer, but that it furthers the 'Mission'.
He admitted that the war and the mission, have nothing to do with making America safe from terrorism. They serve a purpose that is outside of America's interests.
This war then is clearly intended to benefit a foreign power. Our young men and women in uniform are killing and dying for a purpose that has nothing to do with keeping America safe. They are not defending their nation at all. General Westmoreland Petraeus says so.
Will he be fired?
Is it no wonder that the Republicans want to focus on an ad?
Glad to see reich-wingers continue to be concerned about the most pressing issues of our days: flag burning, gay marriage, and newspaper ads. Reich-wingers are indeed irrelevant.
Alecia @ 7:
This isn't about John Kerry, either.
The Republicans would like nothing more than public perception and patience to be frittered away on irrelevant tangents while the clock ticks on and soldiers continue dying. This is their standard tactic, and the Democrats fall for it time and again - as soon as they close on an issue, the Republicans do their seagull routine, and suddenly the Demos are cleaning up seagull droppings instead of resolving the issue.
I have a lot of problems with any criticism of the ad as I cannot see anything in the add that isn't true. Are there some false or incorrect statements in the add? So essentially people are whining about the headline?
Also, lets face it. anything was going to be jumped on by the Republicans and their enablers in the press. No group could be permitted to attack Petraus for his history and previous statements. No matter what Move On said they would have been attacked. No for the substance, but for the tone.
If the GOPers are wet the bed over an ad in the NYT, how can they be expected to protect teh Jebus Fweedom?
ron @ 26:
I agree. The ad was not false or misleading.
General Westmoreland Petraeus is serving a power outside of America's interest in commanding this war. The war by his own admission has nothing to do with the safety and security of the United States of America. He is sending our young men and women into battle to serve some other master. He is commanding a mercenary force against a nation that was not our enemy. These are not the actions of a patriot that serves America's best interests.
He is destroying our military readiness, spending the lives our of young men and women, slaughtering over a million people and spending trillions of dollars on a war that does not serve America's interests, but serves the interests of some foreign entity.
Does a patriot, destroy our military in order to benefit a foreign power?
What do you call someone who destroys a nation's military from within, in order to benefit another interest?
The ad is accurate.
ron @ 26:
Using the pejorative 'General Betray-us' is a blatant ad hominem attack. It is what people like Rush Limbaugh, Melanie Morgan, and other 'patriots' do as their stock-in-trade.
Any factual content of the ad is derailed by the emotional reaction, and suddenly, instead of championing facts, MoveOn has to defend its words regarding Petraeus' character.
I'm not sure if it's the heights of hypocrisy or sheer stupidity........I suppose they've conveniently forgotten the swifties...again
Shadowgm @ 29:
Congrats, Captain Obvious. This is the time we live in; reich-wingers spend 24/7 on the airwaves spewing their ad hominem attacks. At least moveon has a backbone is willing to fight fire with fire. Good for them.
When did they EVER repudiate or censure:
Ann Coulter
Rush Limbaugh
Michael Savage
etc.
etc.
etc.
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Friggning hypocritics
The fact that a slew of rethugs opened up their commentary yesterday admonishing the Dems and everyone who is liberal for something "someone" else said is typical of them.
Why should the Dems have to jump through hoops for them when they get Nugented, Coultergeisted, Bill'Od and Hannitized on a daily basis ? You don't here the presidential candidates running around demanding a bill to said Ted is a loon.
So...Why isn't there an amendment for every hate spew having them denounce what their "followers" are saying ?
For them to want an amendment is as crazy as the "freedom fries" thing. In what way does the ad warrant congressionalmentiona at all. This is a democracy...I think.
Well...thank you, Republicans, for giving MoveOn an even bigger audience for the ad. :)
Incidentally, betrayal is a pretty serious charge for a military officer, and you'd damn well better have hard facts - a casualty count and deriding Bush's 'stay the course' strategy, no matter how disastrous it has proven, doesn't fill the bill.
It's important that in exposing the wishful thinking of the Bush Administration that we don't substitute our own.
Shadowgm @ 29:
I completely understand your point.
Do you see any other lesson in this? In this case, an peace organization for peace, finally got their attention.
When you go back to being nice again, they'll put you back in the sandbox, with the Free Speech Zone Tape around it, then ignore you while they play with their soldiers.
They have successfully slaughtered over one million people by being rude. Will you let them continue to slaughter over a million more, by being polite?
IT'S CALLED
"FREEDOM OF SPEECH!"
YOU UNWASHED CONGRESSCRITTERS!
YOU TOO UNWASHED-DAIPER VITTER!
!
Dahgrostab'ph-r-i @ 6:
I am not sure these people are really "people". Maybe ....seedpods from outer space. Ever see "The Invasion of the Body Snatchers"? There you are! The GOP exhibits all the top down behaviors that we've come to associate with "seed pods". They are authoritarian, top down, suspicious of outsiders, and they believe kooky bullshit in order to "feel good about themselves". To complete the picture, they are delusional, cold blooded, ruthless, utterly lacking any feeling for fellow human beings. Other characteristics of the very worst in cultism of any sort, they are, to a person, megalomaniacal, crass, obvious, unapologetic hypocrites, liars, and, in the worst cases, criminals. A larger percentage of them, it would appear, are closet fags, pedophiles or perverts even as they try to persecute the gay community. Many are misogynists.
I have come to the conclusion that the GOP is NOT a political party. It is at best a kooky cult. At worst --a criminal conspiracy, a crime syndicate that ought to be investigated under RICO.
Shadowgm @ 35:
Or what? The free speech police will break my leg?
Dr. Matt @ 31:
Congrats, Captain Obvious. This is the time we live in; reich-wingers spend 24/7 on the airwaves spewing their ad hominem attacks. At least moveon has a backbone is willing to fight fire with fire. Good for them.
I no more want to live in a world where liberal invective wins the day than I want to live in Glenn Beck's America.
Enough with the moral relativism. It was wrong to use the term and has not furthered anyone's ability to refute the spin coming out of the White House.
Shadowgm @ 35:
When you deliberately manipulate the numbers (not counting all the fatalities) in order to help make a case to continue this futile 'mission', that is a betrayal of the troops under your command and of the people of the country you serve. It is what it is.
Shadowgm @ 40:
I no more want to live in a world where liberal invective wins the day than I want to live in Glenn Beck's America.
Enough with the moral relativism. It was wrong to use the term and has not furthered anyone's ability to refute the spin coming out of the White House.
I believe the ad was truthful. I'll repeat me argument. Petraeus says he has no idea if the war will make America safer. So who is he serving in commanding our military to fight a war for an outside interest? Who is he destroying our military readiness for?
He sabotaging our defense, for a cause that doesn't make America safer. to benefit whom? Who is he serving if it isn't the US Constitution and the People of the United States of America?
The arrogance of this amazes me.
These are the same people who embraced the Swift Boat crowd.
This outrageous request absolutely needs to be completely ignored - these people clearly have hopelessly skewed values and the entire political left can see that.
Should we expect better values from the perverted "family values" crowd though? The party of closeted perverted sex - with men who . . . .
*are SERIAL ADULTERERS LOOKING FOR YOUNGER AND YOUNGER "TROPHY" WIVES,
*ANALLY RAPE their wives,
*SOLICIT GAY SEX IN PUBLIC WASHROOMS,
*PAY PROSTITUTES TO PUT DIAPERS ON THEM,
*CROSS-DRESSERS
*MARRY THEIR COUSINS
*DENY HEALTH CARE TO CHILDREN
---and perhaps most egregious of all -
*PURSUE SEX - RAPE - with VULNERABLE UNDERAGE MINORS, BOTH BOYS AND GIRLS.
We're supposed to worry about the moral outrage of this group of sexual perverts and criminals? I'll even leave their other crimes against humanity out of it for now.
Do we concede the moral high ground to these DEGENERATE, DEBAUCHED, DEVIANT FREAKS?
I don't think so.
But keep talking about the ad you perverts - I'm sure Move-On can use the free PR. The more people who find them, the better for the liberal left movement to take back America.
*
This is EXACTLY what the founding fathers had in mind. The federal government should be passing more resolutions condemning political statements. Perhaps the Republicans will want to set up a committee to oversee expressions of discontent and mete out appropriate admonitions? Might I suggest "Ministry of Truth" for the name?
Weaseldog @ 39:
Has the concept of facts and rational debate completely deserted this country?
Facts do matter. Otherwise, there's nothing wrong with packaging a bunch of lies about John Kerry's service, because it's free speech. Don't we owe it to ourselves to respect that right, rather than use it to justify insults?
The angry and hypocritical Rethugs must have wet their beds again.
Joe Pasetto @ 11:
True - will someone please send a photo-shop rendering - on the internet - of Ari with a Clown nose and ruffled collar?
It would improve his overall look and would characterize his current projects nicely.
*
selise @ 17:
~ and - as noted above - draw attention from the report itself.
*
Shadowgm @ 45:
That wasn't the point, concern troll.
ron @ 26:
The real reason they're upset is because the "Betray US" moniker is so remarkably MEMORABLE! They see the potential for this to STICK BIG TIME - especially as the noise and confusion around the report itself expose the fact that Petraus is doing EXACTLY THAT - BETRAYING AMERICA - and the troops too let's not forget.
*
can anyone help me find the resolution articles by republicans against the swiftboat attacks? i tried all the Internet search capabilities i know and none have been successful in finding what i am sure of what must amount to a large amount of information.
repube hypocrisy knows no limits. and once again they are more than willing to change the true topic being debated. what move on said in that ad has zero importance when you compare it to what the general and ambassador did and DID NOTsay in the hearings.
Shadowgm @ 45:
Ignore facts if you like. Or say that because you and I disagree, I am wrong.
As a citizen, I am not required to become an attorney in order to believe that the War in Iraq, and General Westmoreland Petraeus do not serve my country. That they illegally serve and outside interest that is causing harm to my nation.
You may be of the opinion that someone must bring criminal charges against Petraeus before I decide that I believe that the facts show that he is betraying his nation. You may argue that his actions in commanding an illegal war does not make him a traitor.
You may also make the argument that the fact that soldiers under his command continue to torture and rape prisoners with his knowledge, does not put him at odds with the Geneva Convention a treaty that according to the US Constitution has full force and effect of law. You might disagree with me that his continued and willful violations of the Geneva Convention make him a war criminal.
You disagree with me, that he is a war criminal who's actions bring shame and dishonor to the US Constitution, a document that he has sworn to uphold and protect. Therefore, he is in dereliction of his duty. Further, you can disagree with me, that his is giving his troops illegal orders in the furtherance of a war, which he freely admits, has nothing to do with making America safer or defending its shores. In fact, he leaves open the question as to whether through continued engagement of this war, he is not increasing the danger to the United States of America, because he admits, he doesn't know one way or another.
And finally even though he is at odds with the US Constitution, the Geneva Convention in pursing a war that has nothing to do with the security and safety of the United States of America, he has asked that he be allowed to continue to pursue the war and continue committing war crimes.
I believe that these facts are true. I believe that these facts justify calling General Westmoreland Petraeus, a betrayer. What else do you call a war criminal that has betrayed the US Constitution after swearing to uphold and protect it?
Disagree as you see fit.
Shadowgm @ 35:
I've not seen this mentioned anywhere - but in the clip of that idiot congresswoman in florida asking Dems to distance themselves from Move-on - for a few seconds they cut to a shot of Petraus. His discomfort is palpable. I read this one way - guilt. The man is guilty of lying before congress now and he knows it.
*
Weaseldog @ 51:
Please, do not feed the concern troll.
Weaseldog @ 42:
Incidentally, Petraeus' answer came two days after the ad ran. Unless you've got a time-traveling DeLorean, you can't use it to justify the ad's insult.
But, if General Petraeus thinks the Surge is working and you disagree, he's beholden to some booga-booga secret conspiracy? That's like Bill-O's fixation on George Soros (second only to his fascination with loofahs).
Given that we have been in-theater since 2003, how is Petraeus - the latest in a line of commanding officers of the Iraq debacle - single-handedly responsible for the destruction of our military readiness? Perhaps you think he should object to his legitimate orders and magically transport our men and women home? The sad fact is that he does not have the grounds to decline the instructions from the White House (perhaps, maybe, if they said 'gas this neighborhood,' he would).
Who is sabotaging things? Who is championing this 'cause' of freedom? It's all Petraeus' fault? News to me.
He's linked to contractors and oil companies and reaping in war profits? News to me.
Why is it that you continue to presume he MUST be answering to some evil overlord somewhere?
Petraeus' testimony would have happened regardless of the MoveOn.org ad. The ad didn't make a damned thing happen, other than give Republicans a distraction to wave in front of the public.
This is as much about 'winning hearts and minds' here at home as the spin telling us that we're doing this in Iraq.
God... What about Fox News and all the LIES they tell, everyday?!? MoveOn.org is at least speaking the TRUTH! Those skeezy "Family-Values" types are the most brazen sort of hyporites!
What a bunch of cry-babies-bed-wetters liar losers. Steve is right on point.
First they blocked and broke the Rev's freedom and civil rights, now they are trying to block freedom of speech.
Next we will see billboards all over the US with chimpy's face plastered on it, talking his bullshit sound bites. "We're kicking ass." What a stupid hillbilly inbred asshole.
Indigowatcher @ 55:
Tell it!
fixed noise does this all the time and remember this is the channel darth endorsed.
The fathead, stupid asshole.
Petraeus is only the messenger.
Also, isn't drawing attention to MoveOn.org by criticizing it just feeding its popularity? I mean, that's a GREAT way for MoveOn.org to get some exposure. These stupid-ass politicians are shooting themselves in the foot, and I'm glad.
What we need is a laundry list of Rethug attack ads that THEY can repudiate at the same time.
Shadowgm @ 54:
You should learn to read for content. You are clearly inventing an alternate argument to debunk. I don't play the strawman game.
Why don't you write your own arguments under another name, then argue with yourself?
From Fox News:
Report: US Plans Iran Attack Fox News reports in a Web exclusive that the German government's decision to "withhold support for any new sanctions" against Iran has "pushed a broad spectrum of officials in Washington to develop potential scenarios for a military attack on the Islamic regime." Political and military officers, "as well as weapons of mass destruction specialists at the State Department, are now advising" Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice that "the diplomatic approach...has failed and the administration must actively prepare for military intervention of some kind." The "next shoe to drop" will be when Secretary Rice and President Bush "make a final decision about whether to designate the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) and/or its lethal subset, the Quds Force, as a terrorist entity or entities." The "designation of such a large Iranian military institution as a terrorist entity would also be seen, sources said, as laying the groundwork for a public justification of American military action."
Germany Gives Secret Assent Fox News' Special Report reports diplomats "from other countries suggest Germany would privately welcome, though publicly protest, an American bombing campaign against [Iran's] nuclear facilities."
You've linked Petraeus to incidents of torture, violations of the U.S. Constitution, and violations of the Geneva Conventions. On top of that, you just think he's a Bad Man.
That he is instrumental in perpetuating the policies of a morally bankrupt administration is almost certain. The problem with your argument is that he must, therefore, be a willing participant, rather than the latest commanding officer to be handed a sack of shit and told it's field rations. Yum.
Until Congress holds Bush impeachable for using the AUMF and outright lies to justify the war in Iraq, General Petraeus is bound to follow his legal and legitimate orders. That you disagree with the reasoning behind those orders, or the people that gave them, does not make him criminally culpable.
What we have here is not unlike the Caine Mutiny. Sure, Captain Queeg is nutters, he holds a trial to prove what happened to some ice cream ... but the court-martial does not find that Willie Keith's actions were justifiable.
There can be no "coherent Iraq policy" because there is no solution which we should have been involved in for openers. It's not our country and the Civil war there was not our war. Bush made it "his war" and it will go down in history as "Bush's failed war" - just like Vietnam.
short sharp shock @ 58:
No mere messenger has as much license to shape the message.
Shadowgm @ 63:
IMPEACH BUSH NOW AND SAVE OUR COUNTRY! We don't have 500 days left for this charlatan to destroy it! BRING IMPEACHMENT PROCEEDINGS TODAY.
Maybe each poster needs to simply write 'IMPEACH NOW' for all of the threads because they all would not be happening if this group of thugs would be booted out on their ears.
Further, the timing of the attack will be purely political.
Consequently, according to a well-placed Bush administration source, "everyone in town" is now participating in a broad discussion about the costs and benefits of military action against Iran, with the likely timeframe for any such course of action being over the next eight to 10 months, after the presidential primaries have probably been decided, but well before the November 2008 elections.
Weaseldog @ 61:
Somebody has trouble reading, and it isn't me. I merely continue to question your assertions, and you've been unable to provide answers.
That's a pretty far toss from criticizing MoveOn's use of the term 'Betrayus'.
sunset @ 66:
No argument there. Tell Nancy Pelosi: AmericanVoices@house.gov
IF the dems had any f**king balls, they'd put forward a motion to censure Rudy for appearing at a 9/11 function with Ann Coulter, who accused the wives of WTC victims of enjoying their husbands' deaths way too much.
Oh yeah, and they'd end the US occupation of Iraq...
Shadowgm @ 63:
Your logic is false.
Shadowgm @ 69:
You clearly didn't read the ad.
Thank you for trolling.
the righties are more angry at an ad pointing out that people have died than that people have died
To the Republicans a quote from the Bible:
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Rather, the Republicans pay big bucks to purveyors of hate to speak at their events.
I have mixed feelings about Petraeus. Bush is the Commander-in-Chief. But in a democracy, everyone, including Move-On, has a right to express their opinion. I haven't seen the ad, so I have no opinion about it. But, I am tired of Republicans spewing out the phrase Move-On supporters as though they are just short of a terroristic or subversive group. Unless they're truly ignorant, they know that Move-On's supporters are pretty mainstream. But, they wouldn't be fear-mongering to their ill-informed base, would they?
Shadowgm @ 4:
Absolutely right. Look, the headline (not the substance) of that ad was stupid and uncalled for. Patraeus is a lot of things (shill, mouthpiece, opportunist) but he is not a traitor.
I'm not for censorship or censure but that was flamethrowing not honest debate. On the other hand, if they only wanted to get lots of attention...it was a huge success.
>...Colin powell made the same speech to get us into this war, now petreaus is giving a false and misleading speech to keep us in this war.
"Those who do not learn from WHAT HAPPENED ONLY A COUPLE OF FRIKKEN' YEARS AGO are doomed to repeat it"
How about the Repugs condemn Bush and his cronies for lying us into an unnecessary war.
After seeing Patraeus's rosy story of great success turn into an I don't know what will happen or whether what we are doing in Iraq is making the US safer, the Moveon.org seems to be making a legitimate point.
The Repugs claimed freedom of speech when McCain, Kerry, Murth, and Cleland were dishonored for the service to the country.
How about the Repugs condemn Bush and his cronies for lying us into an unnecessary war.
After seeing Patraeus's rosy story of great success turn into an I don't know what will happen or whether what we are doing in Iraq is making the US safer, the Moveon.org seems to be making a legitimate point.
The Repugs claimed freedom of speech when McCain, Kerry, Murth, and Cleland were dishonored for the service to the country.
It wasn’t liberal activists who came up with “General Betray Us” line, it was conservatives.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0907/General_Betray_Us.html
First, Petraeus has betrayed us. Second, that ad was paid for by a huge number of Americans who believe that he has. It may not have charmed Republicans (or centrist Dems) or even yours truly. But .... Petraeus is a betrayer. Republicans will seize on anything to distract public attention from the fact that they are supporting the betrayal of the American people and our military.
Honest to God, it really, really pisses me off to think that these assholes moaning about the MoveOn ad are the same douschebags that didn't blink as John Kerry was swift-boated by Karl Rove and Co.!
When the hell did this country become the frickin Soviet Union???? I seem to recall many republicans calling true patriots like Max Cleland and John Kerry the vilest of names and they ridiculed Kerrys' purple heart by passing out purple heart band aids at the damn republic convention. But god forbid don't call the sainted Patraius a name or you will be horsewhipped and jailed. "Screw the f-ing hypocrites!"
Lamest GOP publicity stunt since "Freedom Fries." Grow up or shut up, dickheads. There's a war on.
Weaseldog @ 72:
Enlighten me, O Prophet.
Tell me how your belief makes him criminally culpable. That's not how this country works. I can believe that O.J. killed his wife, but it's the proof of a botched police investigation that caused the verdict to be otherwise.
I could also believe that General Petraeus is an alien assassin from the planet Drofwarc, but that doesn't prove criminal culpability, which is necessary to remove him from his position.
This whole situation came from Bush believing that Saddam had WMDs.
What makes your belief different?
Oh, and speaking of trolling, I never disputed the content of the ad. I objected to the use of the pejorative 'Betrayus' as unnecessary and playing into Republican talking points.
While they may not be attacking now...
Just a few weeks ago, the left would have been all over this story. Now they aren't so sure. But if you ask them why this is true, they would deny.
And just because we get a few inconsequential points in now, don't think that they won't be back. They will bring this advertisement up in 4 or 8 years from now to demonstrate their feelings toward true democracy.
Retired Navy @ 86:
Using Betrayus to explain Petraeus' behavior is not a pejoritive Shadowgm. He did not uphold his oath of office "To Protect and Defend the United States of America". An oath I took several times.
And your impression of that would be?
did the republicans repudiate the swiftboating of John Kerry. I don't think so.
Fakeass war.
chimpy can't answer simple questions like why are we there (it changes every time he has a bowel movement); Why is he wearing out our troops (can't maintain enlistees no matter how he fudge the number or how low he lowers the bar); Why is Iran important to the US (Israel)? (The prevention excuse is a lie, especially when Pakistan has nukes and harbors chimpy's so-called " al Qaeda*? I'm not even going to try figure out why chimpy let Il (NK) off the hook (nukes and China.)
I know I answered my own questions because these bs excuses are unacceptable to the majority (sane) of people in the US. chimpy knows this but he demands to do things his way, chimpy's way, Chimpy and his gang are determined to run the the US into the ground. It's all the decider's fault.
*Al-Qaeda's military infrastructure in Afghanistan was destroyed but US officials believe the terrorist network has reconstituted itself in Pakistan, with more than 3,500 al-Qaeda fighters believed to be hiding throughout Pakistan's cities and border areas. In addition, the terror network has cells.
We need a war and all our military power to chase 3,500 al Qaeda fighters around the world? This is ridiculous.
Weaseldog @ 62:
Gawd! We will face double trouble. And Germany doesn't welcome the attack on Iran publicly but secretly they do, what kind of chimpy shit is that?
Shadowgm @ 85:
That word 'Betrayus' didn't appear in the ad. You are arguing about an ad you've never seen.
You've continued to use the Nuremburg defense, which I wholly reject.
Are you a neo-nazi?
Israel makes a bombing run over Syria.
It looks like all those Iraqi refugees will be moving again.
I don't see how this continued escalation will make the world a safer place.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gD-E7E_IrcMkCLx2Ouqu6IY9f-DA
Shadowgm @ 4:
I agree with you GM. With an upcoming election that will be ENTIRELY decided by moderates/the poorly informed, providing the repulican machine a soundbyte that got repeated for an entire news cycle for free isn't exactly what I would call helping the cause.
Your average voter isn't going to know the nuanced story, he is going to see an organization devoted to electing democrats saying "bad things" about a uniformed general officer.
Further, When "Swiftboat Veterans for Whatever" were slandering/libeling John Kerry in 2004, how many of us stopped to think, "oh, hey..this is just a 527 group which is in no way coordinating strategy with the GOP to sway the uniformed voter with BS"?
My first thought was, "look how low the GOP is sinking this time". I bet most of you thought the same thing.
If that isn't the damnedest thing ever, taking time in Congress to censure a political organization. The stupid Rethugs won't censure all of Bush & Cheney's lawbreaking, but they want to censure an organization that is trying to save the lives of our military.
This country is just totally screwed.
PW @ 81:
And the whole Iraq issue is detracting Americans' attention from the fact that we are being invaded on the southern border by people intent on the destruction of the U. S.
Isn´t there a questionmark at the end of the ad? General betray us? That´s a Cavuto, so no one is accusing anyone. Just a FOX News question right?
Bob @ 96:
A fox news question is one without a shred of evidence. :)
WHY is MoveOn "intemperate"?
Answer: It isn't. A mouthpiece lies and lies and LIES and calling him a liar is "intemperate"?
They should have ran a full-page ad sayng only: Gen. Petraeus is a LIAR." Period.
I am frankly sick of the namby-pamby whines when The Left tries to fight back, even a little. "Oh no! This will guive the GOP fodder to slam us!"
Can't you dweebs see that that is what they do ANYWAY?
I have long thought that those making this kind of comment were either children, or GOPers themselves, trying to undermine Democrats.
Now there is no doubt.
Go home, you freaks. We don't want you.
Shell5960w @ 98:
Thank you. Calling someone a liar when they LIE is not bad. Saying someone has betrayed us WHEN THEY HAVE, isn't bad. It's the truth.
Conservatives prefer to attack people who bring attention to a problem, instead of addressing the actual problem.
when the repugs repudiate ari fLIEscher's $15M attack ad spree, I'll be impressed.
Forget the War, House GOP Wants to Censure MoveOn
Sept 10, 2007
The Nation -- What is the first formal response of House Republicans leaders to the well-spun testimony of General David Petraeus about how the "success" of the Bush administration's surge strategy requires a long-term commitment to keep U.S. Troops on the ground in Iraq?
A resolution commending the general's logic? No, that wouldn't do. There is nothing particularly logical about claiming that, because things are going great in Iraq, the overwhelming majority of U.S. troops should not be allowed to come home.
A measure putting members of Congress on record as supporting President Bush's war-without-end approach to the Iraq imbroglio? No, that would provoke a revolt among rank-and-file Republicans in the House that party leaders could not control.
What. indeed, is the response to the most ballyhooed testimony the House has yet heard with regard to the war? Why, it's a resolution condemning internet activist group MoveOn.org for buying a full-page newspaper ad -- which appeared in the New York Times on the morning of the general's testimony -- to suggest that Petraeus, the U.S. commander in Iraq, might be preparing to betray both the truth and the troops.
Minority Leader John Boehner, R-Ohio, wrote the resolution, which has attracted the support of ten of his GOP colleagues, including California Republican Duncan Hunter, the ranking minority member of the House Armed Services Committee and an erstwhile contender for the Republican presidential nomination.
"The despicable attack MoveOn.org launched against General Petraeus today should be condemned by all Members of Congress, including the Democratic leadership," grumbles Boehner. "I urge members on both sides of the aisle to join in support of this resolution so the House speaks with one voice rejecting the character assassination tactics employed by this extremist group."
The resolution makes for good political theater. Indeed, the only real problem with it is this: The MoveOn ad predicted that Petraeus would make a political statement -- as opposed to a reasoned military assessment of facts on the ground. Additionally, the ad cited concerns expressed by the Government Accounting Office and intelligence specialists about efforts by Petraeus and his aides to "cook the books" in order to foster the false impression that the surge is working.
As it happens, that is precisely what Petraeus did. So, for all Boehner's blather about "despicable" attacks and "character assassination," the general's own testimony confirms the accuracy of the MoveOn ad's prediction of a betrayal.
Hence, there is nothing to condemn -- save, perhaps, a general who cloaked Bush administration spin in a military uniform, and a House Republican leadership that is more loyal to the party's president than to the republic its members supposedly hold dear.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
John Nichols, who appeared in Outfoxed, is the author of a critically-acclaimed new book, THE GENIUS OF IMPEACHMENT: The Founders' Cure for Royalism. Rolling Stone's Tim Dickinson hails it as a "nervy, acerbic, passionately argued history-cum-polemic [that] combines a rich examination of the parliamentary roots and past use of the 'heroic medicine' that is impeachment with a call for Democratic leaders to 'reclaim and reuse the most vital tool handed to us by the founders for the defense of our most basic liberties.'"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20070911/cm_thenation/45231423;_ylt=Am...
Let's make a deal. We'll censure MoveOn if you impeach the president.
Charles @ 99:
Karl Rove 101.
Weaseldog @ 91:
Oh, wait, I missed a whole friggin' SPACE. It wasn't Betrayus, it was BETRAY US. Oh, dear, dear. Good thing I don't type in missile coordinates for a living.
And there's a fine distinction between Petraeus being constrained to follow legitimate orders from a legitimate command authority and the Nuremberg Defense. You continue to proceed from the grounds that your fervent beliefs that the whole of the orders comprising operations in Iraq are immoral and must be disobeyed.
In the absence of clear and compelling proof, backed up with legal action, that the Commander-in-Chief (Bush) is ordering acts outside of the law, or is mentally incapacitated, there are very few options available to Petraeus. This means Congress needs to get off their asses and impeach Bush.
As for the neo-nazi comment ... since my original comment was that using the term BETRAY US added nothing to the necessary and important debate, and you have offered nothing but insults and weak excuses ('strawman'), well ... you've proven my point quite nicely.
I'm done.
I really thought move on showed restraint. Betrayus should be glad I didnt write the ad. LOL I guess thats why I'm ranting online instead of writing copy for a national campaign.
"If the right took coming up with a coherent Iraq policy half as seriously as they take some intemperate newspaper ad, the nation would be far better off."
Now that sounds like the basis for a good Dem ad campaign.
Shadowgm @ 103:
Good, you finally read the ad.
Other Generals resigned rather than follow illegal orders.
Your moral compass differs from mine. You find it easy to apologize for war crimes, yet get upset about a headline you hadn't read that can be ambiguously interpreted as name calling.
I believe that General Westmoreland Petraeus has betrayed our nation. Your bizarre request for proof after misinterpreting my arguments leads me to believe that you aren't here for an honest debate. I do not believe that it is important to prove to you, anything at all, in spite of your insistence that I must do this.
If someone lies to me. I have no bones about calling them a liar. If I believe that someone has betrayed the US Constitution, then I have no problem in calling them a traitor. I do not need your opinion in order to make up my own mind, nor should the rest of the human beings on this planet be required to check in with you, before deciding what they should believe.
'I was just following orders', is the Nuremburg Defense. It is illegal for a soldier to follow an illegal order. I believe that Genereal Westmoreland Petraeus has been following illegal orders by engaging in an illegal war.
At the core of this argument, we have the US Constitution, which stipulates that only the US congress has the authority to declare war. It does not grant Congress the authority to bestow upon a third party like Hugo Chavez, Vladimir Putin or George Bush the authority to Declare War.
this should happen. because we know that the most offensive thing which has happened in 5 years of war, and all the unnessisary death, treasure and blood spent, this moveon.org ad has been the MOST offensive thing to transpire.
let the repubs scream all they want. no one is listening to them any more. it is all static.
Shouldn't we be pushing for a censure resolution on John Cornyn? Afterall aren't senators sworn to uphold the constitution, including the freedom of speech? The Move-On ad was politics at it's purest. If they've slandered Petraeus, it's up to him to sue them for slander.
Someone call these crybaby repugs a waaahmbulance. There was never a move to censure the swiftboat liars or that degenerate harridan Mann Coulter for the truly vile or d things she's said about Democrats and liberals over the years. All the repugs that are complaining now can go fuck themselves.
ysbaddaden @ 110:
I read the line, not as name-calling , but as a question. It has a question mark at the end.
MN USA @ 75:
Like Superman's heat vision?
Oh, let's see no colusion between Petraeus and bush? Daily videocons, shrub's visit to Anbar, bullet in the head, criminal, bullet in the back of head insurgent, taking credit for Sunni acts before the surge. Hmm, yep, Petraeus played it straight-up.
If the repukes bitch we panic, if the repukes criticize, we cower. Fuck that.
did the republicans repudiate the swiftboating of John Kerry. I don’t think so.
No, he was royally mocked, especially with the Purple Heart Band-Aids and Flip Flops passed out at the ReThug Convention in 2004.
And the Concern Trolls need to piss off about the contents of that Move On ad. Ever wonder why Eli Pariser named the organization "Move On".
It was in direct response to arguing about the election being stolen, and these same ReThugs hollering at us to "Move On, because the election is a done deal."
I don't like my rights hijacked by some neo-con, repressed perverted jackasses who spout off about "family values" everytime they open their mouths, while they violate those same values at every given opportunity. Last time I looked, I lived in the United States of America. With liberty and justice for ALL, DAMMIT.
Yeah, I'm going to bring out slavery - my ancestors built this Bastard, and we were brought over here against our will, yet we made America our country as well, though if you leave it up to the ReThugs, the people who make this country great would be rounded up and shipped the hell out of here.
Weaseldog @ 108:
Show me one general who has said that was the reason for their departure. Really. Not 'I don't believe we can complete the mission,' I mean a literal, "I stepped down because I refuse to obey an illegal order."
War crimes. Like what? What has Petraeus done that is significantly different than any of his predecessors? If it is simply keeping us hammering away to no purpose in Iraq, then he has lots of company. If no other officer or soldier under Petraeus' command has seen fit to call a spade, then they, too, are guilty.
Where are these illegal orders? Do you have privileged information as to the content of specific communications between the White House, the Pentagon, and General Petraeus? (The orders for waterboarding went to a different set of generals.)
Honest debate?
Look, Einstein. You are essentially accusing a ranking officer in the United States Army of treason. And you don't feel you need to provide proof?
What part of your argument is being misconstrued? You say he's a war criminal, I ask for proof, you refuse. Without proof, your claim is meaningless.
And we're right back to 'you believe it, therefore it's true'. Well, gosh, sport ... Bush believes he talks to God. It must be true.
And I'm free to dispute your beliefs, or ask for proof. Whining that you don't have to prove anything isn't honest debate, it's hiding the fact that you don't have anything to back up your arguments but a 'gut feeling'.
Your belief won't fly in court, criminal or military.
The chain of command is legitimate up and until it is proven that a superior has given improper or immoral orders, or is mentally or physically unfit to exercise that command authority.
At no point have I said 'I wuz jus' followin' orders' is an acceptable defense.
Funny, it's been four fricking years and no one in Congress has done a damned thing to say otherwise. So, by your reasoning, they're all war criminals, too, as they did nothing to act against an illegal order.
And it's awfully ironic that you seem to think your special beliefs negate those portions of the Constitution guaranteeing the rights of the accused.
If the AUMF did not specifically refer to operations outside of Afghanistan, then Congress also has it in its power to rescind that authorization. But, no, the Democratic leadership won't even think about it.
Your problem is the very one you accuse me of - that everyone should agree with the purity of your haphazard logic and the strength of your beliefs. It is the paranoid belief that, since President Bush has lied to the country, anyone who remotely supports him must also be a liar.
Weaseldog @ 112:
That's a laugh. A question mark makes a pejorative okay?
So you didn't really impugn my morals, you just asked if I was a neo-nazi?
Maybe repubs would have liked the ad if it had featured a wolf stalking America? Or, perhaps, if a group of officers had cherrypicked a combat mission from thirty years ago and dissected and distorted every detail to paint the General as a coward, even though they weren't there to witness his actions?
Bush supporters like commercials like that.
Hey Rethugs!
How about a resolution to censor Faux Noise for their lies and outrageous distortions?
Want some more money so you can print the ad again. It's worth it just to make the idiots heads explode. This must be the effect that Coulter and her crew like so much.
What better way to spend time then passing non-binding motions regarding an ad? And these are the people who want less government, yet think that dealing with an ad is a worthwhile use of time?
You just have to laugh.
Call the Whaaa-ambulance.
Sigh @ 5:
Dead on, exactly right.
At last public frustration has an outlet. Good work Moveon.org!! Keep up the attack. You finally gave the right a taste of its own medicine. I guess they cannot take it very well. This ad was a brilliant concept.
Some say this ad shoots the messenger. HOG WASH! This general is by no means a simple messenger. He has the ability to alter the message this makes him an excellent target for critical comment. Especially when he has the ability to alter the message that will cause more Americans to be killed in Iraqi!
[...] Strategy: Democrats Need to do More Than Back MoveOn.org Posted on September 13, 2007 by fitnessfortheoccasion The Democrats need to recognize that every attack from the far right is an opportunity for an effective and devastating counter attack. Nowhere is this more apparent than the rising chorus trying to condemn MoveOn.org for their brilliant ad against General Petreaus (Steve Benen, C&L): [...]
I think Move On made the right decision to let American people know that they are not going to get any truth from National Media unless there is a liberal voice speaking it. This man is in this crap like all the other right wing lunitics, for the love of his stars stripes and money that Bush is stealing from the American people and funding his rich buddies that cover his ass to keep this crap going and I might add with the help of Democrats that continue to hand him all the money he wants.
There is credible information all over the place to support the fact that this administration and all of the people involved are making money off these young people, yet this right wing lying ass media will not tell the truth or they give it to you on the back pages and place the liars on the front.
We need to stay in the face of our Congress members to discontinue funding this illegal invasion. They should only be giving Bush money to bring our young people home.
We need to continue to continue to question these polls they give us or we are going to end up with a republican selected president that none of us support.
We need to understand there is nothing truthful in National Media and keep saying that to yourself, until it sinks in.
Indigowatcher @ 56:
Wow. Fox News tells lies everyday. I watch all the news channels and they all say about the same thing. The "news" shows are something completely different. I don't believe anyone is telling the truth. Not Fox. Not MoveOn.org. Everyone has their on little political goals in mind, and everyone puts their spin on the "truth". If you want mostly unbiased news, listen to NPR. I have found their reporting to be mostly fair. MoveOn.org is for simpletons.
Overall, I found his testimony fair. It did not paint a rosy picture. I am not sure about the lies, but then again you can say anything you want with statistics. I am hearing that the Iraqis are finally getting it, but how much of that is just to make us feel better I am not sure. I have spoken with people who have been in Iraq and they say something different to.
I agree the republicans are hypocrites, but then again so are the democrats. Both parties have lost touch with the American people. Both parties are clueless and I will spend another election cycle wishing I could vote for someone with common sense and not the lousy lefties and righties I am constantly left with to choose from because of the ridiculous primaries and two party system. But we will be left with more of the same. No one to address the real issues, just more rhetoric with just enough action to placate us and keep us from marching on Washington and demanding their heads.
I wish the Iraq were over. I do. I hate to see our men and women coming home dead or maimed. Especially fighting for an ungrateful population. I did not support the war. I knew enough about the politics of the region to see the consequences of taking out Saddam. I also was not under any delusions that we would be done in less than 10 years. Americans and their short attention span (turn off the TV you morons). Rumsfield f----d everything up with his ridiculous policies and notions from the very beginning. But how do we get out of such a situation? We leave and it all goes to hell and then Iran steps in and takes over. Is that what we want? Unfortunately it is not as simple as just pulling the troops out, or that redeploying nonsense. It is a helluva lot more complicated than that. I wish it were it simple just as I wish Bush had not been so friggin stupid to go in there in the first place.
No matter how we got there, we are there (stating the obvious). Who is going to clean up our mess? The Russians? The Brits? The Germans? The Chinese? No. The world expects us to clean it up. The world sees us making these stupid mistakes and they expect us to be adults and take care of it no matter which moronic president started it. No wishful thinking by the pundits and politicos will change that. Getting a democrat in the White House won't change that cold, hard reality either. You want the world to think even less of us then by all means pull out. Let's go to Darfur and get into the same kind of shit there. Maybe it is time America stopped trying to be the world leader and concentrated on its own messes at home. Let someone else do the dirty work.
I generally agree with the view that the Repulicans should not make an issue of MoveOn's questioning of the General's character after his report to Congress. It only lends credibility and gives publicity to the MoveOn's left wing liberal and seemingly uncompromising partisan positions.
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