Colin Powell downplays the threat of terrorism
By John Amato Wednesday Sep 12, 2007 11:46am
I have a very bad opinion of Colin Powell after his puppet role was revealed in the Iraq war, but I'll get to that later. This quote from his interview in GQ is very relevant to the political debate about terrorism, especially today of all days.
Q: Isn’t the new global threat we face even more dangerous?
Powell: What is the greatest threat facing us now? People will say it’s terrorism. But are there any terrorists in the world who can change the American way of life or our political system? No. Can they knock down a building? Yes. Can they kill somebody? Yes. But can they change us? No. Only we can change ourselves. So what is the great threat we are facing?
I would approach this differently, in almost Marshall-like terms. What are the great opportunities out there—ones that we can take advantage of? It should not be just about creating alliances to deal with a guy in a cave in Pakistan. It should be about how do we create institutions that keep the world moving down a path of wealth creation, of increasing respect for human rights, creating democratic institutions, and increasing the efficiency and power of market economies? This is perhaps the most effective way to go after terrorists.
Many people have turned into scared little bedwetters after the 9/11 attacks who threw their civil rights to the wind while supporting a pre-emptive doctrine which will lead us down the road to hell. I talk about the right wing blogosphere and their talk show buddies of course. Being a NYer, the attacks stunned me, but NY picked itself off the floor and went on with life. These people see jihadists in their rear view mirror every time they get on the highway...
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We over reacted to 9-11. We hurt ourselves and we emboldened the terrorists in doing so.
Colin Powell is THE REASON we are in Iraq. Thanks.
too bad colin didnt talk like this 5 years ago
I totally agree with the the fact that a lot of Americans have turned into pussies over the terror threat. What happened to the land of the free and home of the brave?!? I long for the day when we have some politicians with a fuckin BACKBONE call out all of these bedwetters!
Somebody shut him up too, these clowns don't deserve a microphone after their hideous deeds, they deserve something else!
FIRST FRIST!
Coming from a man who willingly, knowingly lied us into a catastrophic occupation, thus contributing to the deaths or displacement of millions of people, what he has to say is of no importance.
A pity that such a bright man is such a wimp under that exterior.
or not
:(
We shouldn't have downplayed the threat of Colin Powell.
"These people see jihadists in their rear view mirror every time they get on the highway…"
But, if we don't kill 'em there they'll follow us home and murder us and beat us and take our wives, burn our dogs and steal our trucks, convert us to Islam and, and, oh, make it go away, please!
Colin Powell is a "but for" tortfeasor. If he didn't exist, yeah, maybe we wouldn't be in Iraq, but the real powers that be would have found another stooge. Like, say, Patreaus?
The substance of what Colin Powell is saying is correct. It is the most eloquent way of saying the real way to fight terrorism I have heard yet.
Too little, too late, Powell.
Words like these would have been welcome in 2002, or even in 2004. Hell, even in 2006. Now, that they don't matter, well, who cares?
The paranoia of some Americans amazes me. New Yorkers and DC'ers (except for the Very Serious) and San Franciscans and Angelenos, by and large, hate this fucking war, and hate this fucking president, and go about their lives and don't worry about terrorism, yet they are the cities most likely to be hit in any future terrorist strike.
Yet the yokels out in the boondocks piss themselves in fear, vote for the Boy King and his stupid war, all out of fear of terrorism and terrorists who don't even know that they exist and couldn't find their town on a map if they tried.
RichStraightWhiteAmericanMale @ 2:
That's simplistic crap. WE (all of us) are complicit in this war. Fear is the reason. Greed is the reason. Laziness. Powell was just a good soldier who realized too late that he let himself be used to spread the fear but we are all guilty of succumbing to it...no matter how we felt about it in the beginning.
"But can they change us? No. Only we can change ourselves."
What a load of semantic, new age BS! Of course only we can change ourselves, but when it's in response to the actions of others you can hardly claim that those actions had no impact. Osama & Co had an enormous effect on "the American way of life [and] our political system." As I wrote in In Defense Of The Pre-9/11 Mindset:
We've changed a whole hell of a lot at the behest of the fear blasted at us by both al Qaeda and BushCo. It's shameful and depressing and so is Colin Powell.
Hard to believe it - but I Colin Powell is actually right.
Terrorists can never, ever destroy our way of life. They can never, ever take away our freedoms. They just don't have the ability to do so.
An "end to America" can only come from within. From politicians who love power, profits and war far more than your liberty.
We all see that happening already.
That's my rant. Read on for more if you'd like:
"You Are Destroying America. Yes, You!"
http://www.populistamerica.com/you_are_destroying_america_yes_you
Colin Powell, it’s time to speak now or forever hold your peace.
You decried the way that “the sons of the powerful and well placed…managed to wangle slots into Reserve and Guard Units"[1] and then you went on to serve one of these sons as his Secretary of State.
You criticized the LBJ administrations prosecution of the Vietnam War with “Back home, the administration was trying to conduct the war with as little inconvenience to the country as possible…. Taxes to finance the war had not been raised. Better-off kids beat the draft with college deferments."[2] And now you sit silently while the Bush administration does the same.
You said of the downing of the KAL 007 flight: “Don’t be stampeded by first reports, Don’t let your judgments run ahead of your facts. And, even with supposed facts in hand, question them if they do not add up. Something deeper and wiser than bits of data inform our instincts. I also learned that it is best to get the facts out as soon as possible, even when new facts contradict the old. Untidy truth is better than smooth lies…."[3] But you told the world that we knew of WMD’s in Iraq. Perhaps you were misinformed by the intelligence briefings but you also wrote: “The lesson about experts had been reaffirmed. Don’t be afraid to challenge the pros, even in their backyard. Just as important, never neglect details, even to the point of being a pest."[4]
“If I never have to parachute again, that will be fine with me, yet there was never any doubt in my mind that I would do what had to be done."[5] Well Mr. Powell, it’s time to do what has to be done. You have a chance to make a difference today, this week, “Stuff happens. And a leader’s just got to start all over again."[6] So start over. If you have truth to speak, speak it now, before another day of Bush Administration's deception so it can make a difference. You’ve had plenty to say, after the fact, about Vietnam and other world events, but saving the truth for My American Journey Part II isn’t good enough. You owe the soldiers, those you helped place in harms way, the untidy truth. Today.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] Colin Powell, My American Journey, Ballantine Books, 1995, p 144
[2] Ibid, p 128
[3] Ibid, p 274
[4] Ibid, p 106
[5] Ibid, p 42
[6] Ibid, p 51
For me, Powell was the guy who whored his ass off for the Bushies. Recall that he did publicly 'confirm' that the 'weapons of mass destruction' could be readied for use 'in 45 minutes'.
His tombstone should read, "This lying sack of shit, this traitor to his country, squandered everything he had going for him with his hand in feeding us a giant cake of falsehood iced with that infamous Big Lie about 45 minutes.
...and see liberals under their bed, ready to attack them as they go to sleep.
COLON Powell strikes again with criticism of his former buddies from a far-away corner of the ether, safe from any responsibility to actually do something about his complaints. At least this time he actually voiced these feelings for himself instead of hiding behind his buddy, Larry Wilkerson.
Tell me, COLON. Did you try doing anything about this when you were THE SECRETARY OF STATE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, COLON?
Ahh. Didn't think so.
STFU and go away, you opportunistic, go-along-to-get-along, save-@ss, boot-licking piece of sh!t. Thank you.
steve @ 1:
No Steve, our reaction was to go to Afghanistan and take out the Taliban and terrorist training camps. We failed to get the ring leader Bin-Laden.
Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9-11 please don't lump it in, that just legitimizes the repugnacan position. We went into Iraq because the monkey boy administration lied, yes lied, about the threat that Iraq posed.
Personally I put little value in what comes out of a Colin.
Like Pogo said: We have met the enemy and he is us.
dadanrachist: Very good point. The vast majority of the American population live in the larger cities and urban areas you mentioned, and they live life everyday like they did pre 9-11. I have family in NY and San Fran, and not once in the past 6 years have they ever said to me that they are afraid of being killed by terrorists. They just don't think about it. On the other hand, you have a bunch of ignorant, slack jawed yokels in the 'bible belt', and the 'heartland' of America, the supposed tough, rugged individuals, the pick yourself up by the bootstraps crowd, cowering in fear, afraid of the terrorist boogeyman. Please. I for one have had enough of these people getting all the credit for representing 'true America'. They aren't true America. NY is, LA is, San Fran is, Cincy is... not bum fuck egypt.
ckerst @ 18:
At least we announced three months in advance that we were going into Afghanistan. It would be fair to go after Osama bIn Laden without Bush giving him a head start.
Thank goodness we didn't go after the folks that financed 9/11 and provided most of the hijackers. Imagine the price of oil if we were bombing Saudi Arabia!
I'm getting tired of this meme of Powell as a courageous soldier whose only misstep was being used by Bush-n-Co. ("I have a very bad opinion of Colin Powell after his puppet role was revealed in the Iraq war...")
The idea that he stands up for his boss like a good soldier is crap. People forget he resigned from the military as chairman of the Joint Chiefs because he didn't agree with Clinton's don't-ask, don't-tell policy. If he was such a good soldier why didn't he stay and do his best to implement his boss' orders?
Powell has been an opportunist with an eye towards his political future for a long time now. He wasn't a good man who got screwed by the Bush team. He was trying to play the game and he lost because he was in over his head.
Powell isn't a tool, he's a failed player.
Powell should be playing golf in Florida with O.J.
Not too hard too see why Christopher Hitchens called Poweel "the most overrated man in politics": He occationally speaks the truth.
Powell was NEVER a hero. He helped cover up the My Lai massacre.
And for all these assholes trying to redeem themselves now STFU and disappear.
Here's one more piece of damage that Bush has wrought on our nation: his myopic PNAC-driven agenda and callous misuse of Powell's authority, combined to destroy any future good that this otherwise good and wise American could have done for our country.
ckerst @ 18:
I see and how is that war going?
Colin Powell's acknowledgement that successful foreign relations policy lies in peaceful, mutually beneficial tactics is a philosophical about-face when compared to his statements and actions as SoS in the run up to the war. A phiolsophical 180 does not excuse those those statements and/or actions, but instead, paints them, and Powell himself, as intelllectually dishonest.
Did Powell just recently discover the potential of fair diplomatic relations? Has he been reading? Where was this freekin' genius when we needed him?
The man has neither guts nor honor.
Ooh, I'm shaking in my booties!
If Colin Powell cares about "respect for human rights," then why didn't he campaign for John Kerry to defeat Bush in 2004?
Mitt Romney wants to double Gitmo. If he's the GOP nominee, will Powell campaign for the Democrat? I doubt it.
collin powel came to my city , made money sucking the dicks of these repigs that infest this town and left waveing a fist full of cash, wheres your god? he should have stopped this fucking traitors rotton heart before he spoke at the un, he deserves what tom dooley got!
Jeez, some of you are as bad as any wingnut regarding unfounded beliefs you spout like its rock solid truth.
Read "State of Denial" or "Fiasco" and you'll find out how Powell was tricked into the UN speech, how much he TRIED to do as Sec. State and was shot down my Rummy and Cheney.
Seriously, Powell went to the CIA right before the UN report and asked them point blank "Is this Intel correct? Is it credible?" Tennet's CIA said yes. What was Powell supposed to do? Go to Iraq and get Intel himself? NO! Our entire government relies on the CIA. Their failure to say "we dont care what you want Mr. President, this is the Intel we've got" put us in this war. It fooled Powell, It fooled the Congress and Senate. Basically it fooled the entire Country.
JW @ 33:
bullshitttttttttttttttttt
Colin Powell might have been a man with credibility and honor once, but not anymore. And, like the good mindless soldier that he is, he still won't directly speak out against the Chimp.
Too little, much too late Colin.
Go back into hiding (and counting your blood money).
Holy Cr*p Robin, Now you grow a set of balls?
His curriculum vitae notwithstanding, the core of Colin Powell's message represents what would have been the best option for the US's response to the post-9-11 world. Currently, in the «post-catastrophic application of an already odious Bush doctrine» world, it is not only still the best option we have, but a national and I dare say, civilisational duty as far as liberal democracy is concerned.
tyree @ 34:
Really? How so? You followed Powell around? You know for a fact he DID NOT go to the CIA and ask those questions? You know for a FACT that he wasnt leary of making those claims to the world without proof? Proof he did believe we had becuase the CIA intentionally misinformed him?
Again, you're as bad as any wingnut, just on the opposite side.
Not that it would help the cause, but it sounds like the opportunity Powell speaks of, is DENISS KUCINICH!
Yea, Powell, redeem thyself and endorse the candidate who will build alliances to hunt down a a man in a cave!
Even if he got tricked in 2002-03, it would have been nice to see him emerge with such sane, rational criticisms of Bush when they might have made a fucking difference.
Now, if he goes after Giuliani and tells America why Rudy's policies would be as bad as if not worse than GWB's, then and maybe only then, will I cut him slack.
JW @ 33:
JW @ 33:
I guess Powell is easy to fool.
The media bought the war, but I know I didn't, and neither did quite a number of people I know. But the media so loudly campaigned for the war, that our voices couldn't be heard.
JW @ 39:
really you know for a fact he did any of that shit you said he did , all you know is what he or they want you to know , the world is made up of fools!
he says this *AFTER* his lardass son made his nut @ the FCC.
quid pro qo.
John.. I love the reporting and passion, but enough with the bedwetters schtick. Geez. There could be children around.
Powells larger point may be true, but when you find yourself in a hole the first thing is to stop digging, and we are digging like crazy right now. Powell is absolutely right that the only force on earth powerful enough to destroy the US is the US, and so far the terrorists have played us like a fiddle to do just that. How much has been squandered in Iraq, which by the way was one of bin Laden's and Iran's biggest enemy? bin Laden effectively trickied Bush and his neocon idiot enablers to use the power of the US on ourselves, and they have shredded the Constitution, destroyed our standing with our allies, and by wasted thousands of lives and billions of dollars.
Weaseldog @ 42:
The media, Powell, all our elected officials, and most of the entire contry. If you didnt, it wasnt because you had evidence to the contrary. You had FEELINGS to the contrary, as in a mistrust of this administraion, an idea that this was really about oil, etc. You didnt have INTEL from any credible source that said the CIA was lying.
I think they had the main failure, as they pushed Intel they KNEW was wrong. The second failing goes to media, because outlets from other countries did infact know, but it wasnt reported.
Still, when it comes to Powell and the Congress and Senate, they are the American government. They are SUPPOSED to trust the CIA over foreign intelligence services.
Orangutan @ 45:
if thier are they better learn now about this shit thats going on ,not after thier minds have turned to crap in our lousey school system!
Dr. Acula @ 36:
You want him to get a colonestomy?
JW @ 33:
No doubt Powell got screwed but I think it's wrong to paint him as an honest man who got screwed as much as he was trying to play the game for his own political benefit and lost.
He's not a victim, he's a wannabe player who lost. And the stakes he played with were our military, and hundreds of thousands of civilian lives.
Johnny2Bad @ 12:
Speak for yourself. I've been protesting and shouting my disgust for this war since 2001. Don't try and toe the administration's tired line of, "Everyone was wrong. Everyone thought there were WMDs. Everyone thought there was an Al Qaeda/Saddam connection." Because it's just not true. Many of us were protesting, being called traitors and unpatriotic...your guilt for succumbing is your own.
tyree @ 43:
tyree @ 43:
I know it because I read books by TWO pulitzer award winning journalists, neither of which was full of partisan bias. They are both a very THOROUGH breakdown of what happened. Powell DID go to the CIA. He did ask. He was lied to. Period.
RichStraightWhiteAmericanMale @ 2:
That's simplistic crap. We (all of us) are complicit in this war. Fear is the reason...Greed is the reason...Laziness. Powell was simply a good soldier who realized too late that he was used to spread the fear. Now that doesn't absolve him (or us) of our responsibility for just like Powell, we let them use fear to bamboozle us into a needless, destructive war and an overwhelming majority of us said..."Bring it on".
JW @ 47:
Colin, Colin, Colin. You know Republicans once viewed you as a potential President, and plenty of liberals agreed. You had respect, you had gravitas. You had bearing. You had the potential to bring disparate sides together.
But you fucking lied to us about Saddam's mobile weapons labs, you stupid motherfucker. You lied your punk-ass off and you dragged our country into a fucking blood-stained swamp-pit of an unholy, unjustified war. So don't come around here begging for your gravitas back. You can't fucking have it. You are forever the Bush Whipping Boy Who Would Lie. You let that worthless jackoff use you for political cover, and you GOT USED. You can never ever overcome that.
FilthyHarry @ 50:
Well, that's an opinion. I dont see you backing it up with very many facts. If you look at what he's done since, I dont think that backs up what you are saying either.
dont you understand, the payoff for his performance @ the UN was giving his son the job @ the FCC.
follow the timeline.
Colin didnt begin this "speaking out" until after Michael powell resigned from the FCC.
JW @ 56:
do your own dirty work , prove the shit you believe in,
To people saying Colin Powell was tricked:
He didn't do his due diligence.
He played an audio tape of people supposedly hiding WMD without knowing who the people were.
Johnny2Bad @ 12:
You are right. FEAR is the reason we are in Iraq. FEAR spread by a respected, credible hero named Colin Powell who knew AT THE TIME HE GAVE HIS SPEECH TO THE U.N. that it was all lies. We bought it because we trusted Colin Powell. He is THE REASON we are in Iraq.
tyree @ 58:
His personal reasons for doing what he did are up for debate. Short of reading the guy's mind, I dont know of a way you could "prove" Powell's reasons for what he did.
I do know for a FACT that he did everything in his power to make sure he wanst lying to the UN, and the world. However, he was relying on intel from the CIA (which as an American he SHOULD DO) and they lied. I really dont see anything he realistically could have done to avoid being tricked by the CIA.
tyree @ 58:
i watched that prick spouting his mushroom cloud shit to the un , they didny buy it and neither did i, guess im smarter the powell
For about the zillioneth time-- MANY OF US KNEW IT WAS BULLSHIT.
It wasn't gut feelings or instincts or anti-Bush or pro-dems perspectives.
Scott Ritter, Ray McGovern, the IAEE, Hans Blix, and at least a half dozen others, told us there were no WMDs.
And some of those people wrote books too.
But they're not millionaires now.
JW @ 47:
I count Scott Ritter and the UN as credible. So I disagree with you.
I don't trust anyone, simply because authority figures have tried to train me to do so. I do my own research and I use my brain.
All you're doing in making this argument is demonstrating that you didn't have the capacity to work this out yourself. It is a common for of logic on the internet to assume that if you can't do something then. no one can.
I for instance, don't have all of the knowledge and experience necessary to build a nuclear power plant, but this fact does not prove that no one does.
steve @ # 28
" I see and how is that war going ?"
Well basically the best equiped and trained army/navy/air force in the world is running in circles . They have not been trained to deal with a situation like they have to deal with in Iraq. Bush and company have dug a very deep hole and no one , anywhere, knows how to climb out . Money and increased Ameican casualties will determine the end game.
JW @ 56:
The fact that he quit the military because he did not agree with Clinton's 'don't-ask, don't tell' policy completely belies his reputation that he follows orders. When he did not agree with Clinton he quit. Therefore I conclude he stayed with the Bush admin not because he was a 'good soldier' but because he wanted to. As far as the rest, you're right it is an opinion, and my opinion is that if a man with Powell's resources was unable to determine the facts it is either due to idiocy or willful negligence. I don't think Powell is an idiot, so I conclude by his behavior that his playing along with his intended role, he was trying to be a player. And what do you mean by his behavior since? All he's done is try to mitigate the damage he inccured by playing and losing. If he wanted to do anything of value there is a LOT more he could say.
slippytoad @ 55:
Worth repeating.
I wonder if he looks in the mirror in thinks that.
Weaseldog @ 64:
Well, if you were one of the few who was folowing alternative media and gettin the Scott Ritter, Hans Blix version...sure. You have reason to believe.
Still though, came down to a choice WHO to believe. Our own intelligence services, or others. You chose as you chose, and it turns out you were right. Powell didnt have that option. As a member of the American government, he HAD to chose to believe what the CIA told him. The fact that Powell took the time to go ask the CIA directly about how sure they were suggests he was not entirely comfortable with the idea, but once the CIA said "Yes, the evidence is there, its credible, we are sure" Powell didnt have a choice.
And save the "All you’re doing in making this argument is demonstrating that you didn’t have the capacity to work this out yourself." shit. This is a limited form of communication. By its very nature no one can cover all counter arguments and scenarios in a single post.
Too late to get on the right side of history, Powell. Tens of thousands are dead because you didn't do your patriotic duty as an American to call bullshit on Bushco when they used your "credibility" to hoodwink us into a war. Yeah, better that your not still a Koolaid drinker, but better you go off quietly, gently into the sunset of a disgraced career. Thanks for nothing.
Weaseldog @ 64:
Correctamundo!
JW @ 68:
Wow that is way off the mark. What are you saying, people in government are not free to make up their own minds? That if hypothetically Powell had evidence proving the CIA wrong he'd has no choice but to use the CIA intel as if it were true just because its American? He has a mind, he is free to exercise it. Not to mention that at the time is was certainly known by Powell that Cheney was making almost daily visits to the CIA to oversee, pressure and cherry pick the intel.
Powell didn't go to the CIA for intel, he went to cover his ass, not for the truth.
Jason Wolfe @ 10:
Agreed. I find it highly unlikely that Powell is the reason we're truly in Iraq. The fact is, *someone* would have made that presentation before the UN.
However, I do think Powell ruined his credibility completely; and yes, he does have a lot to answer for. But on this he's right, and I think people should look at the substance of the words as much as the mouth they come from.
JW @ 68:
You do know that Scott Ritter is an American, he is retired Marine Major. He was assigned to the International UN Inspection team by the US Government. He submitted his reports to the US Government. Colin Powell received copies of his reports. Colin Powell on several occasions talked about the UN Reports and argued for them, until he gave that UN testimony with the blurry satellite photos and cartoon pictures of mobile weapons labs.
Colin Powell is not a robot, he does not have to agree with the CIA, simply because the CIA is part of the government.
As to alternative media, I'll tell you the alternative media where I got the information from. I got it from the United Nation's website. They published the declassified portions of the reports online for anyone to read.
Try this link: at the United Nations
I agree that if you didn't have a computer, and there was no public library, Starbucks or a friend with a computer, the online UN reports were unavailable to you. Otherwise, all of that info was a few mouse clicks away.
The Americans that got fooled by Powell and Bush, were just too lazy to do their homework, or they wanted to be fooled.
Powell must be concerned with protecting himself if the war criminals are brought before an international war tribunal. That's the most obvious answer to this crap that I can think of. Bastards.
Lollimom @ 6:
does it really matter what he did then and for whatever reason he did; when he's now doing the right thing?... after all, if bush isn't going to be impeached or tried for war crimes, isn't the next best thing that he backs down from his position and starts doing the right things like getting the troops back home and establishing useful dialogues with countries like iran (instead of exhibiting his currently childish and pissy sabre-rattling)?
oftentimes it takes the embarrassing memory of a failure to spur one onto discovering their courage... his words should be taken with a grain of salt, sure (and so should everyone else's); but i believe it better to encourage his change of heart rather than to completely dismiss him outright since he can still do something to stop this madness before it continues to escalate unabated...
klunk @ 75:
This certainly helps. Maybe Jesus will forgive him for working to get over one million people slaughtered in an unnecessary war..
colin can kma.
He went right along with chimpy's bs until he
realizedhad proofhe sawhe realized he wasn't one of chimpy's reindeers, he was Rudolf. Now he wants to save the day. GTFOOH colin isn't doing anything more than the rest of the repugs, jumping the sharkjumping ship. BFDRemember chimpy had him dancing, dressed up as a construction worker and singing Y.M.C.A. in Japan. The gay men's anthem.
repugs will play and play stupid; their decider is a freakin idiot
It's gotta sting to be buggered in full view of the public and then left in a puddle. I'm sure this man does not sleep as well at night as his buddy Rumsfeld.
klunk @ 75:
what matters is this traitor could have stood up and cried its all bullshit ,before the 06 elections but he set with his pecker in his mouth and said nothing!
damn I have to work on this strike through thing.
Begone, Colin. You sold out. You can't buy your soul back, or my support.
Enjoy the gold coins you gained by selling out your beliefs and your integrity.
Liberal AND Proud @ 81:
He still has his used military hardware business to rely on. I imagine it is doing brisk business these days. His catalogs go out to universities doing defense research. He sells everything from handguns to outdated helicopters and jet fighters. A destabilized world can be good for the arms business.
Colin had to know he was being played. he was speaking about aluminum tubes Iran had that were very dangerous to the US, and up pops a Powerpoint pic of a cartoon pic depicting the everything he just said. Come on now. It turns out the tubes were harmless.
Until he comes out with the truth, he will remain idiot general #1.
This should convince all the decisionmakers who get their policy analysis from GQ.
Johnny2Bad @ 13:
Speak for yourself.
Why is Powell being given a voice in our society? He should have been banished from civilization years ago. He's got a lot of nerve...
please don't use the future about leading us down the road.... we are way way down the road already.
In other words, soft power! The idea that you can democratize a country at gun point is absurd! Of course, if there is an immediate threat to international security as posed by the fascist axis in WWII or arguably Milosevic, there is a rationale to attack so hard that the leaders are deposed. Iraq? Not so much.
Don't any of you believe that Colin Powell believed the information given to him. Ever since the evidence he gave the UN was proven wrong he has been fighting to end the war, and restore the US values that matter.
How many hundreds of times must one man say "I'm sorry". Cause I'm sorry that none of you can see that he's been working hard at trying to right that wrong. Throw him under a bus instead of using on of the smartest men out there, thats all you're doing.
Listen to him.
I swear most of you would treat a serial rapist better. Forgiveness isn't something only to be given to people who never make mistakes.
Collin Powell = despicable c*nt
Evinfuilt @ 91:
You entreat us, then insult us?
No, I don't believe that Powell believed what the CIA told him, because, he argued for over a year that the CIA was using information that even the CIA knew was untrue. Colin Powell told us a number of times that the CIA information was a lie, before he went and used it at the UN.
People lie. The uniform doesn't make people into Angels made of pure grace. People wear the uniform, and some of them oare good people and some of them are bad people.
Powell could've chosen not to lie to the UN. Then someone else would've done it. But he made that choice and now my nephew is risking his life in the Baghdad, fighting a war with no honorable purpose and no end.
Colon Bowell, far too little, far too late. Your name will be forever linked to the worst President ever. Where was this tiny bit of backbone you're now showing before thousands died?
Why anyone gives Bowell any respect is beyond me. He has been a slimey sack of shit for quite some time. The only thing Bowell lost by being Bush's bitch was the veneer of decency.
If Joseph Mengele had said he was sorry, would he have been forgiven?
Evinfuilt @ 91:
Give me a fucking break, troll.
Why didn't he listen to the inspectors? Why didn't he see chimpy was going to do anything to start a war with Iraq. What about the Downing memo? Why didn't he hear Hussein say, no matter what he did to appeased chimpy, chimpy was acomin for him? Why didn't he see pre-emptive shock and awe was wrong?
serial rapist eh? Don't press it. The only one that will forgive you is God.
Too late to be a statesman, Col. You're all out of what the Bush boy calls po-lit-i-cal cap-i-tal. (Who taught Bush how to speak, anyway. A Klingon governess?)
Far as I am concerned, the people of the city of New York soundly defeated Al Qaeda and the fear of terrorism by the morning of 9/12 2001. I am proud of them. We didn't lose any relatives or friends, but it was close (brother-in-law severely injured). The people did not panic; they worked together in a way that was beautiful to behold for a long time after the event. Despite the self-aggrandizement of Guiliani ever since, I think he was a calming influence at the time and one does have to give him some credit for that, regardless of his prior decisions that led to considerable loss of life among the first responders. That came out only later. I am referring to the public's perception at the instance.
tyree @ 81:
perhaps... but that still doesn't mean he can't turn some warhawks around now...
Many people have turned into scared little bedwetters after the 9/11 attacks who threw their civil rights to the wind while supporting a pre-emptive doctrine which will lead us down the road to hell.
****
This is my point exactly I really hate it when people talk about 9/11 and say: "OMG i thought the world was coming to and end"!!!
I just laugh...what gullible sheep. I thought the governemnt just fucked up a demolition when I first saw the coverage on the news. Never did I think the world was coming to an end.
Powell is human like the rest of us. For him he let his career ambitions battle his common sense. I am not excusing what he did, and sometimes we don't see clearly when we are in the middle of such a disaster, and now he has had time to think about it (although I agree it has taken way too much time) he sees he was wrong and he problably realizes he was only looking for evidence to support Bushies claim of WMD. You can not judge a person by one action in his life, maybe he wants to set it right, and when he dies he should be judged by everything he has done, good and bad, and I don't know what he will be at that point. He has alot to make up for, I hope he has alot years of living left! Who is the real Colin Powell?
lalalalalalala!!!!
I'm not listening to you!
the media needs to stop giving the bedwetters airtime with "security mom" billing
Did you know that Colin Powell snorted that whole vial right after he finished his speech? I swear it's true.
Weaseldog @ 75:
Oh please...
If youve got intel pushing two different conclusions as Powell did, hes going to go with the CIA over the UN everytime. Especially after he walks in and pushes them to confirm it. When you are secratary of State, and the UN tells you "No" and the CIA tells you "Yes" you go with the CIA because until then, they were credible. As every intel agency can be wrong, there was no reason to go with the UN's assessment over the CIA's until we KNEW for a fact there were no weapons.
You may feel like youre justified now because it turns out you were right, but when you made that decision you made it based on "I believe what the UN is telling me over what the CIA is telling me". Its not like you actually had access to the data yourself.
And I agree, the Americans that got fooled didnt do their homework. You must be surrounded by people that actually do. I can tell you, the MAJORITY dont, which is why abortion, gay rights, and taxes are the central issues in every freaking election.
Personally, I did get both sides of the story at the time, and since I dont do intel myself, and didnt get access to either the UN's intel or the CIA's (just their spokes people's take on that intel) I really didnt know what to believe. I wasnt surprised when we didnt find anything, but I also wasnt disingenuous enough to claim I actually knew which side was telling the truth. Both were credible organizations, but without the ability to analize their intel in person, it was going to come down to "who do you want to believe".
Anyway, in regards to your argument about Powell being able to back the UN intelligence over CIA intel, I disagree with you in that he had a choice. That said, even if he did, I dont think he decided to be GW's sockpuppet. I think he legitimately made a mistake, and I think his track record suppports that. You guys go ahead and crucify him in your own mind all you like. Its nothing Ive not seen the wingnuts doing to dissenter's on other blogs which brings me back to...
Youre just like wingnuts, only on the other side. Youre either with us or against us. Its why I get attacked on most blogs, cause Im not with either of you.
Colin, with each public statement, proves himself to be remarkably irrelevant. Words such as ¨the most effective way to go after terrorists¨ring hollow now. Many of us knew that the military was never a solution to terrorism. Yet thanks to Powell and the Neo republican wing of the party we have embarked on a singular path to our own destruction. The Petraeus testimony suggest just how strongly we are embedded with the military industral complex and just beauracratic the military is. I see more military interventions and more blood and treasure sacrifice in the future and I see the new American dream; spreading democracy throughout the world, even when we don´t practice it at home.
The mood in America after 9/11 was not fear but anger. The people did not relinquish any constitutional rights to fear or to anger. The government claims to have suspended them for national security reasons, yet it has no authority to have done so since all its right derive from the consent of the people, and the people have given their elected representatives no such power other than amending the Constitution of the United States, which they have not even attempted to do. Consider that virtually every act of the United States Government since the judicial coup d'etat of December 12, 2000 has been illegal, and that those who have aided and abetted them are criminals.
"You do know that Scott Ritter is an American, he is retired Marine Major. He was assigned to the International UN Inspection team by the US Government. He submitted his reports to the US Government. Colin Powell received copies of his reports. Colin Powell on several occasions talked about the UN Reports and argued for them, until he gave that UN testimony with the blurry satellite photos and cartoon pictures of mobile weapons labs."
Given to him by the CIA, who said "Slam dunk. Yes this is Credible" blah blah blah. It appears like you are trying to convince me he was wrong to go with the CIA over the UN intel. Everyone knows that now. Back then, he had two sets of conclusions drawn by two sets of intel groups, both credible. When the CIA told him it was good intel, he chose to believe them. That's my take. You think he's a sockpuppet for the Bush admin. Fine. But you act like finding now WMD's in Iraq means you KNEW what was right. Reality? You chose a side. You didnt have access to the intel, just what the talking heads from both org's put out publicly. You chose...and it turns out you were right. Powell chose wrong.
"Colin Powell is not a robot, he does not have to agree with the CIA, simply because the CIA is part of the government."
When its a choice between intel from the CIA or others, hes got to chose one, and Im saying he would go CIA everytime, as would any American government official who believed the CIA was credible. There is intel out there to support ANY stance you want to chose. It all comes down to who you chose to go with. Powell chose wrong in this case. That doesnt mean he did it because hes a Bush Sockpuppet.
"As to alternative media, I’ll tell you the alternative media where I got the information from. I got it from the United Nation’s website. They published the declassified portions of the reports online for anyone to read."
Neat!
"Try this link: at the United Nations"
Yep. Its neat stuff! Old news...but neat!
"I agree that if you didn’t have a computer, and there was no public library, Starbucks or a friend with a computer, the online UN reports were unavailable to you. Otherwise, all of that info was a few mouse clicks away."
Haha. What, you think all Americans do that? Why are the central issues in every election Abortion, Gay rights, and freaking taxes? MOST Americans arent informed, though I partially agree with your next statement as to why.
"The Americans that got fooled by Powell and Bush, were just too lazy to do their homework, or they wanted to be fooled."
I agree that most didnt bother to do their homework. I disagree that if they had, they would have come to the same conclusion you did. I do mine, and I certainly didnt. I came to the conclusion that there was no way to know. Youve got the CIA and the UN bickering about whos right, each taking a different stance. Both credible. Both sure of their conclusions. Dissent everywhere. No access to the intel myself, so I was reliant on what THEY said.
So, my conclusion was this; I didnt know if Iraq had wmd's or not, but it was pretty damn obvious we were going to war.
Anyway, back on topic...
You can think what you want about Powell but the bottom line is... there just inst any way you can conclude hes a Bush Sockpuppet in that UN speech, and not legitimately pushing what he BELIEVED, without a leap of faith. I dont have faith, but from what Ive read, thats not the conclusion Id come to. Its possible, Ill conceed. I just dont think its probable.
John Amato -
Thank you for your excellent post. Especially: "Many people have turned into scared little bedwetters after the 9/11 attacks who threw their civil rights to the wind while supporting a pre-emptive doctrine which will lead us down the road to hell."
Always remind people that that republicans are selling fear, and nothing better. (Though in some contexts you may wish to modify the wording.) I understand commenters anger and frustration over Powell, but if he completed his thoughts, he might make a useful Democrat.
Powell was skeptical of the whole march leading up to Iraq. MSM kept the infighting between Cheney/Rumsfeld & Powell out of daylight. Did Powell intentionally lead the country astray? I don't think so. He insisted Tenet sit in on his leadership failure at the UN. The manipulators of this drama continue to work all the actors masterfully. I am not arrogant enough to project what I knew on everyone else. I had a fucking stroke trying to persuade people of the reality. My brother and I didn't speak for five years. Powell was groomed to do what he did and played his part.
I move to stop killing the messengers and in true American fashion get to the root source of the problem, cut it's head off and kill it.
The main reason the bedwetters have such an irrational fear of terrorists is because their attitudes are primarily based on deep-seated prejudice against against Arabs and Muslims. The activation of negative stereotypes can produce intense negative emotions and extremely biased perceptions of anyone within that group. In turn, those negative emotion can activate the fight-or-flight behavioral responses that we so often see in homo sapiens wingnuttus.
People harboring less stereotypic views of Arabs and Muslims can think about terrorists in less rigid, less emotionally charged ways and although may still consider terrorists to be a threat, will not likely think that the terrorists are literally lurking about everywhere in the shadows.
This guy was always a prick. The fetishism Americans have for men is uniform is ridiculous. He wasn't fooled--he was entirely complicit and staking his political future on the Bush train. Sadly for him, but not for us, they tied him to the tracks and ran him over. If anything it should be viewed as poetic justice, a craven political opportunist used and ruined by far more clever political opportunists.
That this guy still gets a forum to speak is pathetic. In an even halfway sane country, he ought to be notorious. (And in a fully sane country, he ought to be in prison)
there is only one real terrorist cell operating in the United States and it's
the bush administration. al qaida did not rewrite our laws and al qaida did
not viotate the u.s. constitution.........bush and cheney and their cronyies have.
the only terrorists cell operating in this country is the bush administration.
al qaid has not violated our laws and al qaida has not rewritten our U.S. Constitutional
freedoms,
but bush and cheney have. so who should we fear? look to the whitehouse.
the only terrorists cell operating in this country is the bush administration.
al qaid has not violated our laws and al qaida has not rewritten our U.S. Constitutional
freedoms,
but bush and cheney have. so who should we fear? look to the whitehouse.
the only terrorists cell operating in this country is the bush administration.
al qaid has not violated our laws and al qaida has not rewritten our U.S. Constitutional
freedoms,
but bush and cheney have. so who should we fear? look to the whitehouse.
colon powell was the petraeus of his time and launched a career path base on ingratiating his betters. schwartzkopf was the man in gulf-w-one, not powell. now it's obvious there was a reason for it.
colon the sycopant goes back to My Lai with his subterfuge and whitewashing.
colon is a bush sockpuppet. anyone with dignity would not have walked into the UN with fingerpaintings and asked that war be declared on Iraq on that as evidence.
honestly, why is there a thread up for him?
Who gives a flying F what colin powell has to say to us NOW?
He is a traitor. He lied to us then when the pan got hot he quit.
He is a coward and a liar.
dadams @ 115:
Here here! While Mr. Powell has lost some credibility by doing the administrations' bidding. He seems to be doing his best to right some wrongs. The man speaks the truth. When do we start the impeachment process? Waiting this administration out is far to painful.
Please, Colin Powell has always been a whore, going back to his whitewashing of the My Lai massacre in Vietnam. I've only heard him speak the truth once and that was in an interview (late 90's when everyone was fawning over him and touting what a wonderful president he would make) when he was asked about affirmative action and he admitted he would not be where he was if it was not for that policy -he stated he knew of men much more qualified than he, who had been passed over each time he had been promoted.
At this point, no one really cares what Colin Powell says about anything, especially national security/terrorism. General Powell is still the spineless yes-man that he has been since the Reagan administration.
It's unfortunate, as Powell could have won the 2000 presidential race. Instead he took the safe road, and became a subservient secretary of state. Go back to the country club Colin. Your are more irrelevant now than you've ever been.
BaScOmBe @ 118:
As an example of the difference between having honor and integrity versus only the appearance of having those virtues. Powell being the latter.
I disagree with the headline. If Collin Powell "downplays" the threat of terrorism, then that means that you disagree with him and that terrorism is the #1 threat to America which it isn't. So, John Amato, I ask you, is terrorism the threat that the average American perceives it to be?
I think people, especially on C&L, need to make the distinction between surrendering to the fear of terrorist attacks and the actual threat that terrorism poses. Statistically, one has a higher chance of getting struck by lightening than being killed in a terrorist attacks.
Hey JW, Remember Hans Blix. The Night Rider reporting. Scott Ridder. Powell did not have to go to Iraq to check the facts. The claims put out by the US govt. leading up to the invasion were dubious at best and that is why the UN and my countries leaders saw though the lies and the consequences of the path the SOS was asking us to walk down. The very clear efforts at deception Powell and Tennet went through for the attempted con job at the UN can be erased by your media but outside of your borders the reocord is clear.
The sad part is that even very "liberal" states -- where Nancy Pelosi lives, for example -- are marching lockstep with this.
He said;; Dangz Iz needs sa moh diz stuff. Miz bottle bout empty.
" It should be about how do we create institutions that keep the world moving down a path of wealth creation, of increasing respect for human rights, creating democratic institutions, and increasing the efficiency and power of market economies? This is perhaps the most effective way to go after terrorists."
this would be a very profound statement if it did not come from a once respected man that was an active participant in an administration that attacked and in many cases damaged the very institutions he speaks about. revisionist repubes are all around us.
McDuff @ 125:
That's true. I think if we evened it out for the world, the terror statistics spike over the last couple of years (no thanks to Bush & Co.) but roughly you stand a 40 out of 300-million chance of dying in a lightning strike. One of my favorites to note is that terrorism falls between being struck by lightning and being killed by a meteor.
I was against going to war in Iraq from the time it was first being reported that Bush was considering going after Sadam. This opinion was based on what evidence they had to support their claim that Iraq was a terrorist haven. While the media reported that Osama was hiding out along the borders of Afghanistan and Pakistan and that we were making real progress against Al-Qaeda, that Iraq was somehow involved completely escaped me.
Colin Powell was part of the catalyst that took us to Iraq and I would like to see the day when all of the people involved are questioned and held responsible for the war. But that won't happen. In this blog item, it is stated "Many people have turned into scared little bedwetters after the 9/11 attacks who threw their civil rights to the wind while supporting a pre-emptive doctrine which will lead us down the road to hell." These are the people I hold most responsible.
We talk about how our government is screwing us and the rest of the world but the world is blaming the average American too because we are allowing this government to do pretty much whatever they decide they want to. I do know a lot of people on the right who felt that the war was wrong but yet did and said nothing to help stop it. There are probably just as many on the left as well.
The point is that if you haven't called or written to your representative in Congress, the senators from your state, your state governor and if you did not vote, you are no better than Colin Powell. Get up and do something. Go out to attend a rally or put up a poster that makes your statement. If you do nothing, your apathy will be taken as acquiescence and you can't blame that on anyone but yourself. If you do acquiesce, then you have forfeited your right to complain and you are in the same league as those who were afraid to take a stand against tyranny when this country was founded. The right will stand there, shout and wave flags. They won't actually do anything like fight when it's necessary because they know that we will. The left is better than that and that's why we have to protect ourselves by questioning the government when we think that we should. If we don't, nobody will. The patriots of our past knew that we would; that's what they fought for.
Powell knew himself that the "intelligence" supplied to him by Tenet was bullshit, and said so in private before his UN presentation, according to this story:
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/030609/9intell.htm
On the evening of February 1, two dozen American officials gathered in a spacious conference room at the Central Intelligence Agency in Langley, Va. The time had come to make the public case for war against Iraq. For six hours that Saturday, the men and women of the Bush administration argued about what Secretary of State Colin Powell should--and should not--say at the United Nations Security Council four days later. Not all the secret intelligence about Saddam Hussein's misdeeds, they found, stood up to close scrutiny. At one point during the rehearsal, Powell tossed several pages in the air. "I'm not reading this," he declared. "This is bulls- - -."
PS: Wired magazine published a document on the anniversary of 9/11 last year, called "One Million Ways to Die", comparing the risk of death from terrorist attacks to other more or less common risks that we and society at large are happy to incur on a daily basis, without surrendering our civil rights to eliminate them:
"...here's a handy ranking of the various dangers confronting America, based on the number of mortalities in each category throughout the 11-year period spanning 1995 through 2005 (extrapolated from best available data).
S E V E R E
Driving off the road: 254,419
Falling: 146,542
Accidental poisoning: 140,327
H I G H
Dying from work: 59,730
Walking down the street: 52,000.
Accidentally drowning: 38,302
E L E V A T E D
Killed by the flu: 19,415
Dying from a hernia: 16,742
G U A R D E D
Accidental firing of a gun: 8,536
Electrocution: 5,171
L O W
Being shot by law enforcement: 3,949
Terrorism: 3147
Carbon monoxide in products: 1,554
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/09/71743
of increasing respect for human rights, creating democratic institutions, and increasing the efficiency and power of market economies? This is perhaps the most effective way to go after terrorists.
He's right about the fact that terrorism is a mostly overblown phantom issue but he tip-toed over the real issue at the same time he mentioned it. "Increasing wealth" is fine if it is done without trampling a whole peoples...
create institutions that keep the world moving down a path of wealth creation, of increasing respect for human rights, creating democratic institutions, and increasing the efficiency and power of market economies? This is perhaps the most effective way to go after terrorists.
1- Institutions are already created for this and they inevitably rape the land and people and become so powerful that they ravage sovereign nations of all wealth, it's empire's goal in Iraq. Period.
1.5- Wealth creation is coordinated and ultimately comes down and back to those that have the funds to make the initial start or those that own the means already. (The American Dream is out the window and everyone thinks it means making a lot of money. We've been sold this bill of rotten goods for a very long time now. Forget about being happy- get filthy motherf'in rich! That's the ticket!)
3. Great thought! Excellent idea, yet increasing respect for human rights doesn't jive with the other objectives of increasing wealth and efficiency and power of a global market that is teeming with greed, for it, humanity, cannot soak up all the blood with any amount of filthy stinking goddamned money!
4. If Colin "suspect testimony" Powell had the nerve and/or the foresight he might speak the truth; it is because of the continuous bullshit about money and a global market (adding in the beauty queen nauseatingly pat answer of "increase respect for human rights") that al Qaeda ever came to be!
The first course of action should be to never believe anything a corporation or a discredited Secretary of State or most used car salespeople or any politician seeking re-election or selling their godforsaken books or a TV personality disguised as a journalist or a neocon! Etc, etc, etc…
I think you get the picture...now if only Colin and the deniers" could sing that tune...
Colin Powell is a loser. That is mainly why he will be a Presidential Candidate for the Republican Party in 2012.
Too Little, Too Late Colin
And yet, Hippo, he DID read that BS to the entire world, didn't he? I am ashamed to have believed him, thinking that Powell was actually an American of conviction and truth. What he says now is meaningless, as he is simply a damned sell-out... Many of us have despised Bush from the get-go, even more of us his string-pullers. But Colin Powell was the one bit of apparent credibility in that effing regime. When he lied, then admitted it in his "woe is me" tone, I became more disgusted with him than the rest. The others are just filthy, self-promoting crooks. Powell's after-the-fact preaching here makes me want to puke.
If Colin Powell immolated himself on the steps of the Pentagon, I might piss on him to put him out. Anything less, not so much.
Colin, with each public statement, proves himself to be remarkably irrelevant.
Isn't it the truth? I printed out Powell's UN Speech after listening to the French Ambassador that followed. The French blew 8 tons of bird shot through Powell's argument. I printed Powell's speech because I used to teach Ethics and Logic, and Powell's content was a wealthspring for students of informal logical fallacies. The presentation was so inherently, internally flawed that it was irrelevant WHO was supplying Powell with the details because none of the details allowed you to soundly or even sensibly conclude there was a case against Iraq.
Now, the only scientific study of war deaths in Iraq estimates upwards of 655,000 as of a year ago. It's a country twice the size of Idaho that used to be populated with 22,000,000 citizens. How does Powell contribute to the destruction of a civilization and its human occupants then show his face? If this were a novel, he'd have committed suicide or met with some disease or accident to set the fictional universe right again. Powell was the legitimate, credible face of the Bush Administration and he used that power to secure war, while Cheney secured Haliburton contracts, and Bush Blackwater contracts, Gonzales secured the means to torturing without calling it torture.
Powell has no meaningful contribution to make on the grand scale. He is shamed.
Mr. Powell
You are a little late with this shit. The time for you to have come forth with this vital information was when you allowed Bush to just screw you and the American people up in the beginning.
You are to be held accountable along with Bush, Condi and Cheney for the death and destruction of our young men and women, as well as the destruction of Iraq and the brown people of that country that did nothing to us.
Go to hell and stay the hell out of media. You need to go hide somewhere and think about what you allowed to happen for the rest of your worthless life.
After watching the UN speech, I told my wife, "This will haunt him for the rest of his life. He knows that he is fabricating a reason to send American soldiers to die. He has taken an oath to support his Country, and Commander-In-Chief. But, his first loyalty always has to be to his soldiers. He is rationalizing his actions, and hoping for the 'best scenario'. It is not going to happen. In his heart-of-hearts, he knows this is not what the administration is planning".
I am a Vietnam combat veteran. I was effected by the 9/11 attacks. Who would not be? But, I had already learned to conquer fear and remain in control of my faculties. It is the only way to survive. The Iraq connection to 9/11 was so full of flawed logic. But, as someone already wrote, most Americans were pissing their pants. Most had never faced any kind of lethal threat, especially within our country. Even people I knew to be normally clear thinkers, and good analysts, were pounding the war drums.
There are far too many people in the media, and in government, who sold America out. Some did it because of the 'fear factor'. Others did it for profiteering. There are also those like Kristol, Ailes, Perle and the other members of the Israeli lobby. Like most of you here know, the war with Iraq was almost a forgone conclusion. it is enough to make you weep.
Soon, we may very well be suckered into an invasion of Iran. Like the song says, "We won't be fooled again". Or, will we?
I don't know what he is saying. Not to be afraid after 911? I wasn't after it slowly sank into my mind that this whole thing is a lie. Tell a big enough lie and everyone will believe it. I don't know what the purpose of his speech is.
[...] a few of us and perhaps knock down a building. But as a whole, we shouldn’t fear them. At least that is what Colin Powell says, and I agree with him. From Crooks and Liars: Q: Isn’t the new global threat we face even more [...]
I have no doubt that Powell truly believes in the power of America to solve the world's problems. Unfortunately, he went over to the dark side on 2/5/03 and has no remaining credibility.
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