The one speaker on the panel accidentally uncovered a very important point. he stated the bloggers are having an influence on the campaign trail, but the "establishment" is winning the (democratic direction) in capital hill.

Did you catch that? Our representatives we send to capital hill answer to someone else. The "establishment" he refers to here is vague, but it is clear he is not referring to a majority group.

Yes, I liveblogged the show:

Matthews: will Hillary surrender to the Lefties and act sensibly on the war?

O'Donnell: no she will not give in to the Lefties!!

Matthews: but she's with them on the war!

O'Donnell: well yeah except for that

Sully: but that's not fair the whole country is against the war now

Matthews: i'm confused why do we hate liberal bloggers again?

Sully: they never shower or leave the house

Matthews: i love you Sully

[...] Original post by Nicole Belle [...]

When are we as bloggers and Americans going to deal with the voter fraud and disenfranchisement that occurred during the 2000, 2004, and 2006 elections? I hope we don't wait until a the few weeks after the 2008 election and then forget about it again until after the 2010 elections. This is something that should be dealt with from now, before the elections, and until the problem gets fixed. I think some people are calling for voter verified paper trails and random audits. Others are working to implement IRV or Instant Runoff Voting so that we can rank our choices and make multi-party participation in our system more viable. That would be cool.

we're not "in charge" of the Democratic party. we're "in charge" of historical documentation. we took control of that, from the mainstream media, after they stopped reporting and started parroting.

the public wants "news". not buzzwords and empty, divisive rhetoric. blogs are better than newspapers, because:
a, they're free.
b, they actually report news, and attempt to adhere to traditional Journalistic guidelines

Why do all of these idiots have to join in the framing:

Sullivan:

"I think the MoveOn ad was, to my mind, disgusting. I think that group has always been way out of left field"

Disgusting for explaining point by point how Petraeus is not sticking to the facts? Out of left field for representing more than 70% of the public? Do us a favor and don't represent us. Just pack up and leave the podium, Pussy.

Jesus.. if Moveon is Way out in Left Field... Where am I standing?

I must be on the sidewalk on the far side of the parking lot...

Liberal bloggers and those who participate in them... while we have been voting for the Democrats for years... are more ourselves then we are democrats... We are liberals... and Democrats have been the parasites that have decided to feed off of us ...

With that being so...

We are not only the base of the Democratic/Green/ Progressive parties.... We are the Heart of them.

Orangutan. @ 8:

When are we as bloggers and Americans going to deal with the voter fraud and disenfranchisement that occurred during the 2000, 2004, and 2006 elections? I hope we don't wait until a the few weeks after the 2008 election and then forget about it again until after the 2010 elections. This is something that should be dealt with from now, before the elections, and until the problem gets fixed. I think some people are calling for voter verified paper trails and random audits. Others are working to implement IRV or Instant Runoff Voting so that we can rank our choices and make multi-party participation in our system more viable. That would be cool.

Yep. Electoral reform, if we can get a huge movement going on it, could help with a lot of problems. The very means by which we elect people -- even without the fraud and the computers -- tend to give us the kinds of candidate we get, and lead to the idiotic banter we see in this clip.

As for this idiotic banter, I still think this captures it perfectly.

She's baaaaack. I am so glad I saw this clip here today. Moron O'Donnell turns my stomach, especially with that cackle of hers.

Think back to when there were no cable stations and just 3 major networks. We did not have elections starting the day after we elected the president, nor did we start wondering who was running for which office the day after the off-year elections. This is a creation of the cable networks. They start their phony carping about who will be this or that to get ratings. IMHOP, they have done a grave dis-service to the country and they have escalated the dumbing down of our society.

I don't know anyone who would listen and take advice from Matthews, Blitzer, Russert, or anyone of that ilk. I think they have such contempt for those of us who use the internet for information is because we KNOW that they are full of baloney.

I wouldn't trust any of them to ask them what day it was. I'm so glad others have the patience to sit and listen to these creeps because I refuse to.

It's hard to take a panel serioous when Noron is part of it.

Yoohoooo people with tv shows and people with political power... I get tired of hearing about a new catagory of people called Bloggers. Bloggers are WE the People. It's high damn time you heard our voices too.......

Karen @ 16:

As for this idiotic banter, I still think this captures it perfectly.

Oh my. That is beyond funny -- and, sadly, accurate.

Personally, I think one of the first steps in all this "voter reform" stuff is to make Election Day a national "paid" holiday -- with one little twist: you don't get "paid" for your holiday unless you can provide proof that you used the day to either just go vote (standard day's pay); or to volunteer to GOTV or be a poll monitor, poll worker or anything of that ilk (time and a half pay). Sad that such an important matter would have to become something more incentive-driven, but hey - whatever works.

Oh yeah - regardless - all public transportation on election day should be free, and cab fares to/from polling places should be at least half off (hell, around here cabs are free on national drinking holidays like New Year's Eve).

"I can’t believe that in a moment of this war–which is in a pivotal point–that he’s playing Rove’s partisan politics…"

Can't understand why he can't believe it. In his teeny tiny heart, Bush is a divider...

rduke @ 14:

and Democrats have been the parasites that have decided to feed off of us ...

So true. That sums it up, isn't it. And since they are nothing but the tools of "the establishment", whatever it means for this narrow, self-centered, hidden from the public view, relevant only for themselves group of people that doesn't qualify to be called We the People or simply the old style patriotic Americans, because We the People must understand what's going on in the world and our own nation and those people are on the left exclusively and logically so (check out the erroneous, wrong, fraudulent "writing" on the right wing blogs and senseless and mindless "talking" of the right wing media wings like Fox) and then ask yourself why the "parasites" would prefer the establishment and their money, and consequently, a total surrender of the nation and progress, to self-destructing right wing, anti-american because of an anti-muslim, pro-killing stance, distrustful conservative movement represented by the Republicans and their followers? They can do better in the time when they are finally called for what they are and any future power will be self-proclaimed, dieboldized, mislabeled, irrelevant and anti-democratic for 99% of the Americans and, as for the rest of the emerging, cooperative multi-power world, nothing but a laugh, loud and fully granted.

oncall @ 29:

Nora O'Donnell really cracks me up. She must be the quintessential gossip. Her "revelation" that Rudy G. rolled Hillary and Moveon.org into one and the same, was punctuated by her childish facial expression of glee and amazement. She must sell a lot of soap for those guys at NBC. That can be the only reason they keep her.

One of the thread subjects on this blog is about David Brooks being a wanker, well she is a wankette.

Sells a load of soap, or picks up a load of soap?

By the way, just what has MoveOn done to offend Andrew Sullivan, besides the fact that he's conservative. I guess he just finds their very existence offensive. Because we know that only conservatives are allowed to have a voice and control 90% of the media.

Hillary just declared she would vote against any further funding for the war, and as Nora said, she voted against the silly MoveOn bill or whatever it was. How then can they claim that Hillary won't "bow to the wishes of the left"?

if it's not on the war (and de-funding would have to be considered the "most left" position, even though it also might be the most popular position nationwide), then what exactly were they talking about when they said "bow to the left"?

unfortunately, like most spoon-feeding dumbed down politcs talking head shows, probably absolutely nothing. they are probably simply participating in the worshington echo chamber, contributing nothing of value to the national dialogue.

us 'Bloggers' and great sites like 'Crooks and Liars' came about to find honesty, compassion and truth in the news. we stayed and grew to help combat the evil, lying, complete stupidity and Bullshit of hate filled, bigoted wingnut neo-con talking heads like Tweety and shows like Fox News.

Tweety is swinging a little to left these days but i've learned to NEVER trust a wingnut. why, because they lie with impunity.

John Samsonite @ 34:

.............

unfortunately, like most spoon-feeding dumbed down politcs talking head shows, probably absolutely nothing. they are probably simply participating in the worshington echo chamber, contributing nothing of value to the national dialogue.

Watch this, here is the answer to the "igit" issue you so insightfully (meant as compliment) raise:

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/in_the_know_candidates_compete

Matthews repeats talking points from his daddy heroes Rudy and Fred Thompson

awefully convenient of mr mathews to ignore the fact that all this neocon publicity of the MoveOn.Org general betray-us ad helped them to generate over $500 million U.S. dollars!

Thanks bushies, heckuva job.

"Mukasey also signaled reluctance with naming a special prosecutor to investigate Bush-administration misconduct, according to one participant."

Mukasey is a Bush-insider NEOCON.

We already had a Gonzales. He sucked.

Time for the blogs to show their stuff. We want SPECIAL PROSECUTORS, not another Gonzales who thinks Bushco should skate.

Nyc W. Alberts @ 21:

Did you all miss Tweety congratulating Andrew Sullivan on his getting married to a man this past summer?

These are the same people that dog-piled on Larry Craig, with glee, not 3 weeks ago.

~Nyc

They did for good reason, too: Sullivan doesn't prattle on about how being gay is evil, issue constant public denials about their sexuality, preach "family values", and try to stop gays from having rights.

Such astounding levels of hypocrisy brings out the best in us!

Bob Roberts @ 43:

curtilingus @ 7:

A funny rebuke to everyone who responded positively to Hilary's comments on the previous thread.
"Will Hillary listen to the bloggers and let it affect her position? 12 to 0 no she wont."

Don't think she's listening people, even when she says she is.

Good. She should be considering the wishes of her electorate, who are not represented by the comments on C&L and similar websites. She should be looking at polls and speaking directly to her constituents, not following what curtilingus or I have to say on C&L.

As long as they're American citizens (unlike me), she should be considering them if she ends up as president. Not personally, natch: figure who ever's top dog is (hopefully) going to be a little busy for that. Same holds true for views on the right side of the spectrum...

Paul in LA @ 47:

Bob Roberts @ 43:

She should be looking at polls and speaking directly to her constituents, not following what curtilingus or I have to say on C&L.

Maybe your views aren't worth following, Bob, but mine certainly are. The value of bloggers' opinions over 'the constituency' is the level of INFORMATION and the active learning curve of bloggers, compared to the lazy read of the lying newspapers and lapdogs on television.

Bloggers go off half-cocked plenty. But at least they can generally name the persons in politics and describe the later and earlier scandals in some detail. They also know who the real enemies are, one reason why H. Clinton is getting so much flack for her tendency to drive on both sides of the road.

Ah Paul. I shouldn't have gone for false humility. Not only should Senator Clinton deeply consider whatever I feel like writing, it should pretty much be the only thing she should consider. Your views just aren't as important. After all, the universe ends when I die.

You mean I'm not directing US policy from my keyboard?

[Dog pile on Larry Craig, and I missed it!! He's hot stuff.]

seriously---> I think that all politicians should be checking the blogs. Bloggers are interested enough to make themselves informed. Amid our, sometimes, rants... there is some good, thoughtful information, and there are some great ideas/opinions to be gleaned. [The rest of the sheeple are still wondering what will happen to Britney next (as is sure to happen.)]

Edwin, I really despise that bigoted phrase 'sheeple.' Not only is it counterproductive, it also does NOT relate to the facts, which is that you are living in a period of unprecedented information technology, which IS in fact spreading to the masses.

Suggesting people are sheep directly opposes Lincoln's dictum: 'Give the people the true information and they will make the right decision.'

I meet people all the time, and have not yet found them bearing wool. Just because puns are fun, rhymes are relatable, and alliteration is Arf! is no reason for you to demean yourself with bigoted expressions.

Otay @ 12:

Why do all of these idiots have to join in the framing:

Sullivan:

"I think the MoveOn ad was, to my mind, disgusting. I think that group has always been way out of left field"

if move on posts a pro gay ad in new york times. andrew sullivan will revert his comments. his arguments don't make sense to me. He most of time doesn't explain his arguments in his blog.

Disgusting for explaining point by point how Petraeus is not sticking to the facts? Out of left field for representing more than 70% of the public? Do us a favor and don't represent us. Just pack up and leave the podium, Pussy.

This is the same bs that Sully and the right-wingers have pulled since the beginning. When the left said the war was about oil, they scoffed and called us fringe lunatics. Now they casualy talk about it as if it was their idea. When the left stood behind Michael Moore, Sully and the Right called him a "fat pig" and questioned his patriotism. Now they all agree with every point he made in Farenheit 9/11. Issue after issue after issue, they demonize and ridicule the so-called traitorous left, and then eventually incorporate the exact same views into their own narrative. God these people make me sick.

They talk of bloggers as someone other than an American voter?

Just consider what they must think of us that read and comment on the blogger's blogs ?

What is criminal of Chris in this is how he states that Hillary voted to condemn the Bloggers and the Moveon Ad.

That is absolutely not true !

Read the resolution that was voted on, It speaks of the Senators not talking bad of Generals. Moveon nor its Ad was mentioned in the vote.!

And Chris, as every other talking head continues to perpetuate that Moveon "Called Petraeus the Betrayer". The Ads title Asks the question. People make up their own minds.

Now the content of the Moveon Ad questions correctly the Petraeus report. If they fell that is bad then the initial cherry picked reason to attack Iraq still has a death grip on their hearts and minds in the press. Scared as sheep the press are............................And the Blogs appear to have the honesty that other media journalism has lost their way on or decided their own pocket books are more important than real journalism that informs the nation to best decide. They feel they have so much influence that they control us. The Blogs could be in their way...and now holds their feet to the story when they care to face it.

#59

Jimbo,
I would say the big deal is probably what condition the next generation will be in from not being informed or misinformed for many years? With education being torn down, corporate media control, concentrated power of wealth. Those alone have a grave impact at where we are today and how the hel to correct it. Don't you think.

The GOP constantly, relentlessly attacks and defames Democrats, their patriotism, their citizenship, even their right to exist in this Country. What do OUR elected representatives do? They attack US. Even Sen. James Webb, whom I personally went door-to-door for? They vote yes on a resolution to condemn us. Move-on was born defending Bill Clinton (a DLC, not liberal) Democrat against being thrown out of office. It fought an illegal war based on lies. It has provided a forum for Al Gore's series of incredibly courageous speeches on foreign policy, security, and the Constitution since 2002. In short it defends mainstream Democrats not "radicals, as some centrist (and even some "progressive") bloggers have suggested. In short. Move-On is me. It is main stream. And it is right. Bush and Petraeus have betrayed us. And I will never forgive the unbelievably outrageous attack on our patriotism and right to be in this country. Rather than condemn McCain, who unbelievably called for kicking move-on out of the country, as being the Joseph McCarthyite that he (McCain) is, the simpering apologists for McCarthyism and authoritarian oiligarchy kicked it up a notch.