UAW Workers Strike Against GM
By Nicole Belle Sunday Sep 23, 2007 3:18pmObviously, it's not your father's solid manufacturing career anymore either...
BBC:
United Auto Workers (UAW) union members at General Motors (GM) have walked out on strike after contract talks failed to reach an agreement.
It is the first time that UAW has held a nationwide strike during contract negotiations since 1976.
Workers began forming pickets outside five GM plants in the US as a deadline for a deal passed.
The carmaker wants staff to give up some of their expensive benefits such as pensions and health insurance.
In return the union wants assurances on job security from GM.
In a statement, GM said it was disappointed about the strike.
"The bargaining involves complex, difficult issues that affect the job security of our US work force and the long-term viability of the company," it said.
Here's the full text of the UAW statement. The BBC has some interesting links on the changing marketplace for GM. Autoblog will be watching the strike closely, as will Michigan Messenger.
Maybe I'm betraying my labor bias on this one, but it's hard for me to feel sympathetic to GM on this one. They're asking workers to give up pensions and health insurance and not even guarantee their job? Where's the incentive for the American workers? The substantial drop in market share that GM has experienced over the last 25 years can be directly pointed at shortsighted economic decisions that caught them flat-footed as the market and customer demand changed and left them behind. The same attitude can be carried over to much of the American manufacturing base as well.
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GM and other US manufacturers have driven the SUV over the cliff, and now they want the workers to catch them.
"Disappointed" about the strike? Wall Street will certainly open down tomorrow.
This is another example of how both corproations and unions have let industrial workers down. A strike like this comes about 20 years too late.
Union YES!
Nicole:
Why so coy about supporting labor?
The UAW has been making concession after concession, automakers won't budge. The union deserves our support.
more union garbage.
Fire them all and hire mexicans to do the job instead.
This should all be expected, and not be surprising in the least.
The reality that you don't seem to want to address here is that the "American way of life" cannot be sustained indefinitely. That is the real issue here. You can dance around the issue by talking about workers rights or bad economic decisions, but the reality is that globalization can result in a leveling of the playing field, just as much as it may involve opening up of new markets.
You can't have your cake and eat it too - sacrifices are an inseparable part of the picture.
Not to worry. Bush will get involved soon on the side of GM. Just watch and hear him say something about "national security".
UAW or DNC - different letters, same thing.
Wimps. Why are they surprised that management is back wanting more? Management had a problem they couldnt solve and got the UAW to solve it - twice. They are not problem solvers.
They are back a third time in a few years. They are in a weakened position, need the UAW and UAW concessions and will claim they are in the strong position and are only offering an option to the UAW. The solution to their problems involves the nature of their product and their market. That would involve them. The cars are made correctly.
If there is a cost issue here, management could start by demanding that Washington implement single payer healthcare - HR676 - now.
My advice - shut them down. Make them understand the true nature of their problem.
First thing to cut would be the pay and benefits to the execs. Isn't that what the execs should be offering up? to protect their company? The health care for retirees has already been put aside and paid for. The lion's share of the "crippling" benefits is fromthe execs and the fires/retired execs not the workers.
American Workers across the Country.
Stand strong.
Bush has intentionly positioned policies to accelerate the destruction of unions and pensions.
Bush and Cheney are globalization criminals and are a national disgrace.
And the people know it.
Man I hafta laugh because all these years I have heard little else from most Americans over the last 15 yrs is how great Reaganesque style union breakers are for this country.
GM screwed the workers in Michigan when they were a profitable company...they took their factories to mexico even though they were doing fine in the US...they want workers to pay for a wasteful management style.....we really need to support the workers.....
gonzalez @ 7:
Don't they make the Hummer? Need them to keep our (troops) traveling repub congressmen safe.
As a note - unless and until the workers can control/own the investment of their pensions (which they cant and they account for about a third of the investment market) they have no pensions. Workers live in fear as a result.
Yeah that is horrible. I would never give up my pension . . . wait I don't have one. Okay I would never give up my life time guaranteed health insurance . . . Wait I don't have that either. Still I would never give up the guarantee that they will always employ me . . . wait no one does that these days!
I can't imagine why we're not competitive anymore.
Yeah these union guys are being reasonable.
The anti-union sentiment in this country is alot like racial prejudice and bigotry. Promoted by those in a position to gain the most, and embraced by the ignorant.
Corporate greed is the root of a lot of the problems today and this looks like just another example.
Maybe if they actually made cars people wanted to buy...
Yep! GM in the US is losing money because they took the profits from prior years and invested them in Mexico. Now they import cars and the profits from their imports are applied to Mexico and not the US.
GM makes more money today but because of their own imports the US production is down.
GM Board of Directors and CEO need the same reductions as do manufacturing workers.
bob @ 13:
And I'm sure Bill Clinton is concerned too.
Donaldd @ 19:
So why make cars in the US? Seems the Mexican worker can do an equal job at a lower cost.
This is very unfortunate and I don't see it ending well. The corporations are highly stressed by the health insurance situation. America really needs to change this badly. They also feel empowered by the support they have from the government to resort to union-busting tactics and strategies.
It sucks.
*
If you're a progressive, if you are REALLY a liberal, you support organized labor.
PERIOD.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=d52LEcOVblU
Strawberry @ 18:
God - this is so true. They're all in trouble over this one. I wouldn't touch a GM with a ten foot pole - along with others I could name.
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noone @ 5:
And write America off completely. Nice idea!
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Strawberry @ 18:
Exactly. GM still produces garbage. The so-called "big 3" don't have a clue about innovation -- they put all their eggs in the pick-up truck and SUV market (PROFITS!) -- all based on antiquated designs. The domestic manufacturers still act as though ABS, fuel injection and multiple valves engine technology are revolutionary developments.
Someone tell me why the Japanese, German and Korean automakers ALL build cars in the USA, but the domestic manufacturers have so many factories outside our borders?
UG @ 15:
Regardless of the fact that the issue here is a contract of limited duration, and nobody is asking for lifetime guantees of anything, your argument is that since you have a shit job with crap benefits and no job security, it's totally unreasonable for anyone else to expect anything better...
Yeah, thanks. But I already pointed out the ignorance of those who embrace the anti-union position in my previous post...
Live Better. Work Union.
Imagine all the recalls when all of our cars are made in China! hahaha Our kids are all half brain dead after sucking on those toys.
Do union workers get any financial help when they are on strike? Does their insurance stay intact? If they don't get any financial help during this time, this is sad as hell with the holidays approaching along with their regular needs.
As you can tell, I am not well versed in the union's ways. I just can't see GM giving in to these workers when there are so many other people out there that are willing to work for so much less. Since the housing boom here went bust, there are many many Mexicans who are out of work and are having to leave the area searching for other employment. Could GM hire these people to replace the strikers?
UG @ 15:
So you're saying we need to all join you in the race to the bottom?
and i thought labor unions were dead
support labor...
Let me be clear about the last question I asked in my comment number 29. I wasn't suggesting it would be a good idea to hire cheaper labor, I was just asking if they did, could they get away with it?
If we had a real health insurance strategy for this country, GM and the unions wouldn't be where they are.
As for retirement benefits; I have to laugh. Those benefits are a page out of history and only the old-money economies are trying to support them. The future for everybody working in high-paying jobs including those at GM is in 401k plans. Wall Street will always be there, but there's no guarantee GM will always be on Wall Street.
And as to this blog's quip about guaranteed job security - I call bullshit. Nobody in America or anywhere else in the world has guaranteed job security. As somebody who's been in the ups and downs of the tech industry and have seen companies succeed wildly and fail miserably, the market will hire and retain what the market can support.
gm wants it's workers to sign on the dotted line and give away everything. and right after signing, you can bet that gm would announce a big bonus for it's chairman and ceo and then promptly move out of the u.s.
pissed off patricia @ 29:
The union may or may not provide some assistance. It is normally based on seniority and would be a fraction of regular earnings.
GM publically stated recently that they were betting the shop on SUVs, that American Know-How can't compete in the small car market.
Maybe we should think twice about those fences on the border? We may soon need to go to Mexico to find work.
TomR @ 33:
And what happens when all the boomers are withdrawing funds from the 401ks at the same time? Where will the liquidity come from to keep the market up? Deficit spending?
TomR @ 33:
as in 400 million benefits package for CEOs... sure! Here's to the fat of the land.
What are unions now--something like 10% of the workers?
They've been demonized for several decades now, so I wouldn't expect much support anymore from ignorant Americans . Because child labor laws and the 40 hr. work week, unemployment insurance, etc. etc. came from conservatives, right?
Pensions are a pay as you go plan. The worker pre-pays into the pension fund, on the bet that it will still be there when he or she retires.
It is essentially like gambling on a 401k or SS.
Maybe I’m betraying my labor bias on this one, but it’s hard for me to feel sympathetic to GM on this one. They’re asking workers to give up pensions and health insurance and not even guarantee their job?
No, you're totally missing the point?
The purpose is to placate Wall Street, and drive the stock price up, so the Auto executives can afford their Porsches and McMansions out in Grosse Pointe?
You can't promise employment, cause the next step is massive lay-offs?
People don't just get basic Econ 101 (post 9/11 Republic Edition).
If the UAW gets their way, and GM gives them everything they want, then the company will be bankrupt very quickly and these morons wont have any jobs anymore.
They have to realize that they work for a sinking company and nobody wants to buy their crappy cars. Maybe they should focus more on building better products and then their jobs will be more "secure" as well as their pensions and their raises.
Labor unions suck in that way. Screw the workers. The consumers are more important. You cant sit there and promise workers every freaking benefit under the sun when you have such an uncompetitive product that nobody is buying it.
Im more concerned about consumers having access to high quality, low cost automobiles. Cause if they dont have that, then the GM workers wont have job security or pensions, no matter how many strikes they conduct.
You cant strike your way into competitive competency and high sales.
So the workers should be designing and building better cars, as well as running the company?
Aaron Kinney @ 41:
It is simpler than that. GM wants them to give up their pensions, so they can redirect that money into bonuses for the board. After all, look at the money they saved by cutting costs and stealing the pensions. Then they'll fire the workers.
They know that if they fire people first, then they can't touch the pension funds.
Remember, the pension funds came out people's paychecks. Legally, the money doesn't belong to GM.
I'm not fat in any sense of the word and am recently laid off from AMD, a company hemorrhaging money because it's having product competitive problems, largely of its own creation. The fact that AMD, GM, or any other company ultimately has its paychecks underwritten by stock holders both large and small is an unavoidable fact and it falls to corporations to answer to its shareholders accordingly. Capitalism isn't Utopian; it's messy and sometimes there are big losers. To hold GM or any other company to an unreasonable standard of compensation serves nobody if GM goes under the way AMC, Eagle, and other car companies have.
Don't get me wrong; I think unions are important and vital to labor standards in America. But I also believe that partnership all too often gives way to acrimony on the part of both corporations and unions. GM is no more operating like a 21st century company than the UAW is recognizing 21st century facts of inconvenience.
I worked for a man that was the manager for a large GM dealership in Southern California. He told me 2 years ago that GM was going to do whatever it could to bust the union when the contract came up in 2007.
pissed off patricia @ 17:
No, Particia. This is about workers demanding more compensation from a company that cant make a sale. GM is hemhorraging money out of their anus because their cars suck. And their cars suck because they have to spend too much money on retired workers pensions, and they cant invest that money instead into building a better product.
Why is it that the Toyota employees who work in US factories, who are non-union, have it better than their UAW, GM-employed counterparts?
Why is Toyota about to overtake GM as the #1 car manufacturer in the world?
Why is Toyota building cars that everyone wants, and making a big profit, while GM builds pure crap and bleeds money nonstop?
Toyota is a wonderful success story, and they have their non-union American workforce to thank. And in turn, those non-union, all-American Toyota factory employees are thanking their employer.
I work
You work
He, she works
We work
They OWN
pissed off patricia @ 29:
The short answer is: It depends on the union.
Generally, in advance of the actual strike, the Union will advise the membership to prepare financially for the interruption of their regular income, i.e.: hold off on the purchase of big-ticket items, increase savings, get caught up on bills and even make some payments ibn advance if possible, and be prepared to go at least a month without their regular paycheck. Usually there is a provision for financial assistance for the membership if the strike should exceed a cetain number of weeks/months, and for certain specific uses. For example, after 2 months they may allow you to bring in your utility bills, and the Union will arrange payment (as opposed to giving you the cash), or whatever. And/or the Union may be able to assist the membership in finding temporary employment, etc
It just depends.
unions in this country have been in bed with the companies for too long.
sure uaw is striking gm. what about the uaw workers at ford? what about all the uaw members who don't build cars?
when a union strikes the entire union should stand together--you know like united kind of like what being in a union farking means.
they know how to strike in france. if the busdrivers need support, the teachers, farmers, nurses etc. go on strike. demands are met fairly quickly. in this country that's seen as capitulation.
unions have made concessions one contract only to have to fight twice as hard next contract for one tiny gain and to not be given the concession(s) back.
unions in the u.s. are just another form of big business.
SWoods @ 45:
And if they succeeded, then maybe they could start making quality cars and start making good sales, and stop losing so much money. Then they could hire more workers and pay them better.
UAW forces GM to cater to them instead of to their CUSTOMERS. This is a formula for BANKRUPTCY. Wave goodbye to GM if they dont escape the stupid union contract.
hadenuf @ 38:
Bravo! Don't forget paid vacations, safety standards etc.
I love it when I hear "we don't need unions anymore." We need them now more than ever! If you think your employer does anything for you out of the goodness of his heart, you've been mislead. Unions set the standards in this country. Without them all our jobs will go to Mexico or China. Or we'll end up with the same shitty wages and shitty work conditions just to compete.
Living around unions and union dealings my whole life (My dad was a former supporter of the union he was a part of in Chatham, Ontario, until he seen just how dirty it could get), you get a varied opinion of it all. You get psycho pro union, pro union, don't care where is my cheque, pro company and psycho pro company. I've also worked at Wal-Mart for the majority of my employment life, which is so anti-Union you can touch it on the walls.
I support fighting for your rights and privelages. I also support fighting for job security. However, SOME UNIONS TAKE IT TOO FAR. Simply put. I know the guys at the top are making a ton of cash, but you know what? They run the show. You support it. Sometimes you support it by simply standing on an assembly line and doing a few arm gestures a minute for $60.00 an hour. The working class, especially the lower wage working class, is not going to see your plight, and of course will ignore the amount the company heads make (Since they ignore their own company) if you fight to keep $60 in a destroyed auto industry. It also doesn't help that most of the top heads at UAW and CAW are just as rich as the GM owners. It does not look good.
It also pains me that there is nothing you can do on a government level. It has to be two sides fighting. The Union deserves much of the disdain they have earned through Mob minded attacks on Scabs and those who cross the Picket line, as well as when they sit on fat wages doing little labour. However, they do not deserve disdain from biased newspapers, extremely rich CEO's and those in the public too weak to fight for their own jobs.
It's one of those gray situations for sure. There are no heroes.
Here we go. Wingnuts blame the little worker bees who assemble products. Surely not the suits fault, they went to Yale afterall!
Just to ask (and not having read responses yet)... but what *exactly* is meant by giving up pensions and health care?? Does it now mean that the worker might have to pay a $10 co-pay now instead of nothing?? Does it mean that the worker might have to contribute $100 a month to the insurance plan?? Or does it mean that whatever health care they want is now up to them entirely?? Same for pensions......
I have read, at some point in the not to distant past, that many auto workers do not pay *anything* towards medical insurance premiums, no co-pays for doctor visits, no co-pays on medicines and a whole lot of other perks in medical care.
Aaron Kinney @ 46:
I thought GM was asking the Employees to give up the money they paid into their pensions, to give up health insurance.
Is asking the employees to give up what they have earned, the same as employees asking for more? So the employees are being asked to accept less, and this makes the employees greedy?
Is that like stealing and accusing the victim?
GM seems to have plenty of money to design new SUVs. Are luxury SUVs cheaper to build and design than small economy cars?
its really hard to wring out much sympathy for the people who run GM. They're totally incompetent. It's not surprising that after making sub-par cars for 40 years, that you start having financial problems. How do you fix them? Cut worker pay. pfhah. The workers are the first to get screwed by bosses who don't know what they're doing.
It probably doesn't matter what the workers do b/c GM is likely to be out of biz in the next 20 years anyway.
Weaseldog @ 43:
Well I hope they succeed. If GM wins, and then actually blows its funds on board bonuses, then they will STILL find themselves bankrupt in short order. Serves them right.
But if they succeed in firing blue collar workers and make the SMART move and invest in building a high quality, low cost, competitive product, then thats even better.
Regardless, the lesson here to learn is that to survive one needs to be competitive, and cater to the consumer. Let GM at least hang themselves with their own rope, but dont let them squal and complain that their hands were tied when they go under.
That's a nice republican story, Aaron, but conveniently doesn't mention CEO salaries and perks--outdistancing wages and benefits of the average workers.
Also neglects to mention how Toyota recently chose to locate in Canada instead of the U.S. because the Canadian government provides health insurance.
I happen to dislike GM products myself--we have a Honda hybrid--but I see them on the road all the time. So maybe they're not so crappy, and the consumer has decided.
web_geek @ 51:
So remind me again why the non-union Toyota employees are such happy and productive workers? Is it because they die more on the job, and have less vacation, and get paid less? Is that why so many Americans love working in their non-union Toyota factory jobs?
You are fooling yourself. We need unions like we need a state-owned monopolistic car-making-ministry, which is not at all.
GM will get a Fed Bailout, after they've spent the pension fund. Then after they get the taxpayer funded bailout, they'll lay off a lot of their workforce.
We've seen this song and dance before.
It's amazing how much people who are anti-union hate this nation and it's people. If they hate American values so much they should pack up and move to Iraq since they are the same treasonous simpletons who jerk off thinking about how much they love the war. Maybe if half of theses radical right-wing extremists weren't inbred, home schooled , evangelical cultists they would be skilled and intelligent enough to get a union job and would change their tune. If you are not pro-union, then you are anti-American, simple fact of life.
Anyone remember the Xerox and IBM workers who were promised the moon to retire early? Interestingly, some of their payoffs never came through, some lost their promised health benefits, and class action suits settled in favor of the corporations.
I know of at least one who had to go back to work at 65.
hadenuf @ 58:
Meh, Im not a republican, but I dont blame you for thinking that Im one. I fully support the free market and I put the consumer first. So I dont care how much more the bosses pay themselves. All I care about is a quality product at a good price. THATS the key to prosperity here. Whether GM hangs itself through its big perks to its bosses, or whether it is hung by the UAW, makes no difference i the long run. But GM should have its hands free to at least be in a POSITION to do the right thing and invest in its product competitiveness.
You mean that the Canadian government forces the Canadian workers to PAY for the insurance that it provides? Ah yes. Oh, and maybe thats why Toyota just expanded their operations in West Virginia and Alabama and Texas, and is now in NASCAR too.
News flash: Ford has more of its manufacturing in Canada than Toyota.
What youre seeing is the GM cars left-over. Their sales have been in a continued and increasing slump. When youre #1, you can drop quite a bit and still see your product everywhere, but the trend is increasing, and they are losing tons of money.
Like you, I dislike GM products. Their cars honestly suck. If I were to buy a new car today, I would get a Honda or a Toyota. But GM doesnt have to suck at building cars, and this UAW problem is only going to hasten their demise.
Aaron Kinney @ 59:
Nice try at redirecting the argument, but it doesn't hold up. The issue is about worker benefits. Not unions. When union workers bargain for improved benefits, all employers are motivated to match those benefits for their employees whether they are represented by a union or not. When union workers win, all workers win.
Don't forget, that GM is also Di-Tech and has a variety of other financial divisions that are hemorrhaging badly with the real estate downturn.
These workers will pay for the mistakes of the economists working for GM.
The upcoming DiTech bankruptcy is likely the reason this is occurring. GM tried to divest DiTech, but no other financial institution would pick it up. GM is faced with heavy losses with this division, and it is bringing the whole corporation down.
Aaron Kinney @ 59:
Don't be a smart ass. If it wasn't for unions all of us could be working like slaves with no benefits vacation or nothing. Hell we would still have child labor and sweatshops all over the country.
Oh yeah! The World is Flat. How's that free market religion working for you?
GM will fail because they make a shitty product. Period. That's why they can't sell cars....it has nothing to do with this nonsense about the price of their cars being too high because of employee health insurance. That's a convenient excuse from a poorly run company that is usually 5-10 years behind the curve.
Auto workers are being made the scapegoat in this case. Sad.
dan @ 61:
No, if you are anti-union, you are pro-free-market, which is an all American value. If you love unions so much, why dont you work in France?
Consumerism is the name of the game in the USA, and the reason that these union companies are going bankrupt is because they cant compete in the free market.
So either you gotta embrace the free market and a competitive labor pool, or you gotta embrace the nationalization of the entire industry.
And maybe you should ask Toyota employees what they think of this whole GM-UAW row. Ask them if they like their jobs or would rather work for GM (or do they work for the UAW???).
not trying to start anything,but i gotta say the unions,while an excellent tool for workplace reform in our country, over the years have become greedy.I have encountered several situations,(i'm in the trades) where union workers are so encumbered that they cannot perform a simple duty,even if it were beneficial to the worker himself,because of ridiculous regulations.We all have to remember that ,quite possibly the thing that made this country great was an overall cooperation,and a pride in our work that was unequaled.and i dare say,unions have driven up the cost of manufactured items to such a ridiculous extreme that the average american cant buy a new vehicle without going into hock.i have to agree with a previous post in that ,in times of strife ,all of us,including those empowered,superior, union workers might have to sacrifice now,in order to reap the greater good later.
Aaron Kinney @ 59:
You tell me why the "non-union Toyota employees are such happy and productive workers." You're the one that made that argument. How do you know they're so happy? I can imagine they're more productive because the Japanese have been WAY out in front in terms of production line efficiency for years. Is that the fault of the worker?
Tbest way to fix this recurring problem and to get beyond the need for unions is to encourage a culture of education rather than of proud ignorance. I'm sure we all know people who brag about how much high school sucked, about how little they did and what a waste of time it was. I know that someone has to make our cars and widgets, but rather than slapping a union band aid on the problem, perhaps each person should be taught from an early age to act as if they are responsible for their own future, regardless of how proudly ignorant their parents or friends are.
Please tell me where my logic breaks down. I'm just so tired of the red-faced union grumps boo-hooing about outrageously high-paying, low-skilled jobs while the rest of us have no job security, no pension, and rely on good education and hard work, with no guarantees, to make our living.
juanchopancho @ 66:
This is, yet again, a perfect example of a culture in decline--socially, educationally, economically, politically.
I am looking to replace my Civic in the next year, and I do look at what the US three have to offer, but what they offer just isn't what I want. I just don't understand who at GM, Ford, or Chrysler (which is now debatable as a US car company being owned by Daimler Benz) are thinking when they design their mass market cars (the two and four door cars in the $15K-$30K range).
I am thinking about either a Honda Accord or a Toyota Camry. The reason those two are at the top of my list is that both show the effort put into them; both Honda and Toyota design and build them as if they were their flagship products. Exactly what are the flagships for GM or Ford? That's not the unions fault at all.
Aaron Kinney @ 68:
:) First of all they are not mutually exclusive.
Pro-free-market is an all American value? I must have missed that meeting because I didn't get my handbook. So you think we have a free market now?
to aaron kinney at #46
yep toyota is worker utopia.
work at such a pace that you could build 3 toyotas in the time spent to build one gm product.
all new hires at toyota (since about '97) are hired as 'temps'. temps don't make as much as the person working next to him. he can't use the spiffy athletic toys they made for all the toyota boys. no benefits whatsoever really.
since this is the only way to get hired there of course a lot of more mature people who say have a family, can't work at a place indefinately with no promise of a permanent job. so they hire a bunch of 19 year olds who work as a 'temp' for 2 years until he finds a permanent job somewhere. the ones who stay work their butts off to try to impress on the supervisors what a good worker he is. users and abusers just like all the rest. there is no such thing as a benevolent big giant international corporation.
oh yeah and drug tests drug tests drug tests. it's not good enough to give 50 plus hours a week to The Company they want you to be a good toyota citizen aaaaallllllllllll the time, and they'll check to see if you are naughty or nice.
fully support the free market and I put the consumer first. So I dont care how much more the bosses pay themselves.
In Japan, whose economic system you seem to tout so strongly, it's looked on as absolutely a travesity that the executives make HUNDREDS of times what the workers do. They look upon us with scorn, and rightly so.
Besides, in Japan, the executives HAVE to perform and increase sales, instead of just playing corporate finance games to drive the stock up and get their fortunes that way?
In this country, by stuffing the compensation boards with their cronies, the executives have eliminated ANY responsability tieing performance to pay?
Cars don't sell? Lay off workers, give yourself a WallStreet Bonus and more stock?
Also, as other folks have commented, when the workers lose those benefits, the Republics in Washington just say:
Free Market at Work!
But, when the Corporation is going under, they rush in and bail out their cronies on the board....
There's no free market in that, now, is there?
Aaron Kinney @ 72:
web_geek @ 70:
I thought youd never ask! Its because the Toyota bosses were smart enough to avoid union contracts and invest more of their profits in product development. GM, on the other hand, either bleeds money to the unions or stupidly spends it on pay raises for its bosses.
Cause they say so constantly, and Toyota doesnt have any strikes, and theres always lots more applicants for the Toyota jobs compared to their GM/Ford/Chrysler union counterparts.
You nailed it! And the fault is shared with the UAW and the GM bosses. UAW is too greedy in its demands for worker benefits, and GM bosses are stupid enough to sign contracts with UAW and either spend all its profits on union benefits or boss benefits.
The key here is the term "product development" which is a free-market, competitive idea. I am vindicated in that it is clearly shown that the one who competes the best, wins. GM cant compete properly with its crappy management and the stranglehold that the UAW has on its business practices. The only hope GM has to survive is to invest in product development, which it certainly cannot do if the UAW gets its way.
So screw the union, and screw the shareholders, and screw all their pensions and salaries. The consumer is king, and the consumer will make its lordship known by letting those GM products rust away in the new car dealership lots.
All hail king Toyota! ;)
Tom @ 71:
Oh boohoo. An education & $100,000 in debt. What choice do you have other than working really hard to pay of your debts. I mean really? That sounds like involuntary servitude. All that for no job security, no pension, and no guarantees. Brilliant!
If the workers who build the cars can't afford to buy them, then who will buy them?
You better be worried about the working class because if they fail, we all do. The Union bashing has grown to super stupid levels.
GM sold Hughes Aircraft to Raytheon back in the late 90's for billions in profit, profit for which they paid zero tax. Why didn't GM update their products back then and start making something I'd buy?
If you really believe that the consumer is king, I have a lovely, slightly used bridge to sell you. A little old lady only drove over it to go to church on Sunday.
Anyone else remember when Reagan began his union-busting policies and fired striking air traffic controllers en masse? A few years later, I was in Paris, and met a couple American ladies outside the old Opera who couldn't read a map, were lost and looking for Brentano's bookshop. I took them to the shop as it was on my way, and they invited me for coffee. They were a nice, middle-aged, very pleasant couple of women, but rather ditzy, with one of them far more ditzier than the other. Didn't speak French, didn't even bother to try the simple things like merci or si'l vous plait, and treated Paris like far too many American tourists did; as some sort of artificial amusement park created specifically for Americans to come and play in.
During this coffee, I asked what they did. 'We're air traffic controllers' the ditzier one said cheerfully. At my look of disbelief, she laughed. 'It was great! When all the air traffic controllers got fired, they needed lotsa new people. I was just a secretary, and they just whisked me off my desk, gave me a crash course, and I've been one ever since.'
I don't think she was making a joke; I think she really WAS an air traffic controller.
I didn't fly for awhile after that...
The Japanese car companies only build cars here because of tariffs and the desire to sell cars here. They also only pay decent wages because of the precedent set by the UAW. When the Japanese cars become unaffordable by the average American, the Japanese will move their plants elsewhere.
Aaron Kinney @ 79:
1- That makes them happy? The worker is happy because the company invests in the product? Maybe. I think GM's problems have far more to do with CEO salaries than working with the union on an agreement.
2- Prove that they say so constantly.
3- I call bullshit. It's not the workers' job to improve "product development" or improve the production line. That's management in your free-market failing.
Do you really think we have a "free market?"
and also mr know it all kinney, you say at #50 that "they'd hire more workers"
if a company can run 10 workers to death so they can get the production they used to get at 15, they're not going to hire those 5 workers back. they'll whine "oh these are tough times for ________ Co. Inc., we're barely surviving, boo hoo.! oh please workers, work harder for less money--it's for the good of _______Co. Inc. and yes good for america."
the aforementioned toyota prides itself on 'running lean'.
Aaron Kinney @ 72:
lol, the gall to even mention his name. No really? I'm so shocked!
As history shows Friedmans theories have worked wonders in Chile and all over south America. That's why the entire continent has rejected these right wing neoliberal privatize everything disaster capitalism programs.
And check out the latest Chicago Boys idiocy in Iraq with their neo-liberal economics.
Meh. Do you look askance at people who build nuclear missile bases? Or the missiles themselves? Or people who work at nuclear power plants? Or chemical weapons factories?
"How could you work there? SHAME SHAME!!!"
Well, all these idiots building gas guzzling death monsters are finally hitting the pinch from paving the planet or ruining the atmosphere. Brilliant. But "we feel sorry for the autoworkers."
I don't. They've built their lives around a completely unsustainable lifestyle of cheap energy. Fine. Choke on it. Between them and the suburbanshees who schlep "Little Muffy" to soccer practice in 3 tons of steel, glass, and plastics, I don't know who disgusts me more.
Yup - that means you. You piss me off. You're a lazy cow. You don't need a car. Live in a city, ride a bike. Don't like it? Tough. Stay out in your exurban hellhole. When gas kicks up to $100 a barrel next year, don't come whimpering to me about how tough your stupid little life is.
You made your fossil bed, now sleep in it.
Smack_dab @ 81:
Well said.
web_geek @ 75:
Well, having a monopolized labor market and an open, competitive labor market are mutually exclusive to economists such as Adam Smith, Milton Friedman, Murray Rothbard, and the like.
Try "An Inquiry Into the Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith. And no, we are not in a free market now, unfortunately. Currently it is a mixed economy.
Imagine a union that did NOT force the employees at a given job to join their ranks. That would be an example of a non-monopolistic union. But of course a union like the UAW would never allow that. They call their non-member coworkers "scabs" and commit violent acts upon them. Its very sad actually :(
hadenuf @ 82:
Ill prove it to you right now:
I do not wish to buy your bridge. I will take my business elsewhere. OH SNAP!
Aaron Kinney @ 68:
Oh, do please tell me more about this "free market" you speak of.
Are Blackwater no-bid contracts part of the free market?
Are massive federal tax breaks for Exxon and Mobil part of the free market, yet other forms of energy (i.e. non-oil related) get squat.
Are federal bailouts for the airline industry after 9/11 (which, by the way, went straight to the CEO's pockets) an example of free markets?
Are the lifting of most import tariffs by the US while all other industrialized nations are increase theirs an example of the free market?
Please, do tell me about this wonder "American value" called "free market."
well,hell,i'm new to this shit,but anyway...........my dad was a staunch union man.in the seventies,the town i lived in led the nation in unemployment.one company was enduring a strike and advertised jobs for 8.oo an hour.This was huge,there were no jobs anywhere at that time,and if there were they only offered 5 and a half,if that. i told my dad ,who had been on my ass to get a job(i was 17 at the time) that i was going to cross the picket line and get the job he so badly wanted me to have.i was promptly kicked out of the house,because ,as he put it,"no son of mine is going to be a scab!!!!!!!!" (emphasis his).but today,many years later my father,a diehard union man,has nothing but disdain for the unions,and agrees with me,that the unions have done nothing to further the progress of the american worker,in fact my old man said it best" being in a union used to mean something,but now its about being selfish".
If the Libertarian fantasy had any merit, we would have long ago become that utopia as we were closer to the Libertarian ideal a hundred years ago than we are now. We moved away from robber-baron capitalism, aka Libertarianism, because it was so destructive to the majority. The only ones who benefited were those entrenched at the top. It killed innovation and progress, something that we had after we stopped that and introduced workers' rights.
If Libertarianism worked, then Somalia would be your paradise. Go there and live your free market dream.
flashbazzzbo @ 69:
Firstly, regarding the criticism of the unions, ALL unions are only as strong as their membership. If the union fails to address the needs of its membership, the fault lies with the membership, not the union.
The union bargains for contractual agreements that prevent the employer taking advantage of the workers in ways that may seem to defy all logic and common sense. But the contract specifies the duties of each job description, so you have ask why the contract doesn't provide for a broader set of duties within that job description, not assume that the union is at fault for not letting the employer rewrite the duties of that job description after the fact, especially if it seems to make so much sense to do so.
Yeah, Aaron, what a comeback.
And you really had us all fooled about not being a republican.
If GM wants to break the Union, the means to do so has already been given to them through bankruptcy. The airlines made null and void all their labor agreements the moment they declared bankruptcy.
Aaron Kinney @ 90:
"monopolized labor market?" :lol:
That's rich!
I think my personal favorite example of the free market has to do with Enron.
Ok, here's a question for all the anti-union people out there:
You keep saying the unions are greedy. Can you give me an example of this "greedy" you speak of.
When I see a union contract in the paper, it's usually for 1%-3% raise and health benefits.
The way I see it, keeping your pension and healthcare is not greedy - it's self preservation.
That would be an example of a non-monopolistic union. But of course a union like the UAW would never allow that. They call their non-member coworkers “scabs” and commit violent acts upon them.
Amen. Short of deporting them, what else ya gonna do with anti-American scum?
From 'Frontline: Can you afford to retire?' Viewable online.
HEDRICK SMITH: [voice-over] So if bankruptcy doomed United's pensions from day one, why did United take two-and-a-half years to kill its pensions? I asked Jamie Sprayregen.
JAMES H.M. SPRAYREGEN: It may have been, you know, intellectually obvious, but coming up with a process by which to handle adjusting expectations so people would buy into the need to address the pension issue, without it becoming a situation where we would lose what we call the hearts and minds of the employees, was a real challenge and an art.
GREG DAVIDOWITCH, Pres., Flight Attendants Union, United: Ultimately, what we concluded was that management had a very deliberate course of action set out from the beginning of the bankruptcy, which was to roll out demands for concessions over a period of time in an escalating way, in order to bring the employees along without creating a spark that would have led to real labor unrest.
HEDRICK SMITH: [on camera] A strike.
GREG DAVIDOWITCH: A strike.
ELIZABETH WARREN: What it really comes down to is, How much can we take away from the employees before they finally say, "Fine, you take it, but I'm not working here anymore." And no one else will come to work for them, either. That's what corporate reorganization in America has become, "How much less can I give you and still keep you here?"
I'm on strike with the UAW. GM won't sell a car to anyone I know until they can provide healthcare and pensions to their employees and cut in half or more the CEO's salary!
the free traders and supply siders have brought misery to our land. We're in a race to the bottom. The pundit class has a disdain for all workers except their ceo friends
Aaron Kinney @ 91:
-----------------------------------------------
kinney, since you don't read anything that someone hasn't lifted from one of your incredible (true sense of the word) statements, i thought i might finally get your futzing attn for one min.
listening?
i'm an ex toyota employee and what you are saying is total bull crap. you have no idea what goes on there or how the worker feel, think or say about any damn thing. so in net speak STFU.
and to the site owners, i apologize for feeding this troll.
can't you do something about how he constantly uses such big chunks of what other people say? i think he likes to take up space--like that large empty space between his ears.
Smack_dab @ 81:
I will, with all my disposable income that my non-union job affords me :)
OF COURSE Im worried about the working class. I work too!
I was speaking a bit harshly... what I meant to say is that the consumer is king in that all other prosperity is dependent upon the consumer class, and that INCLUDES the prosperity of the working class.
If the consumer doesnt ant to buy GMs product, then NO AMOUNT of UAW contract wage increase guarantees will save those workers from being jobless.
Do you seriously think that the UAW can just legislate or dictate worker job security by making a contract????? Do you seriously think that the sales of the product will not be the determining factor of whether or not the jobs of the employees are secure????
Boring Scott @ 92:
No.
Of course not! Thats what commies do!
Definitely not. Let 'em go bankrupt and have Jetblue or some other profitable airline fill in the gap they leave behind.
On the US side, yes. On the other side, no. But leading by example is a time tested virtue.
It was a very common thing to see back in days of yore, but we have strayed far from our roots. Too bad America is more commie than free market nowadays :(
I don't get it!
I just finished reading the New York Times and the Washington Post and I come over to C&L to find news of a UAW strike from the BBC?
WTF? Over...
Jenny'O @ 105:
BWAHAHAHA! You dont know me, or the Toyota employees I know. And you just admitted that youre an ex employee, so...
More important: have you ever worked for the UAW? Do you work for them now? Are you on strike with all the other GM employees?
Im not a troll. Im a regular reader of C&W, as well as DailyKos, firedoglake, etc. But Im a rare commenter. Issues like this get ym goat because it pisses me off that people are messing with my choices as a consumer.
By the way, it was pretty cute how you told me to STFU, accused me of being a troll, confessed that you are an ex employee of Toyota, and yet brought no evidence or specific arguments to refute my claims that Toyota employees got it better off than UAW/GM employees.
Stop ASSERTING that my arguments are bogus and try actually demonstrating it, if you can. Im more than happy to concede error in any of my Toyota claims that you refute with actual substance.
The workers are screwed.
The will move their plants out of the country.
Aaron Kinney @ 106:
Please illustrate how you figure sales are connected to job security...
Because one need look no further than Wal-Mart to see that sales, market share, etc., do nothing to provide job security by themselves.
Aaron Kinney @ 107:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Our goobermint has been subsidizing oil companies for years!
Are you calling our government communist?
dan @ 101:
Probably the best thing GM could do is refuse to sign any more contracts with any more monopolistic unions.
The unions are also a reason why the public school system sucks so bad. My roommate is a schoolteacher and he says its impossible to fire the crappy teachers due to union rules, and that the high performance teachers are not given incentive to remain high performance, so they get jaded and start sucking at their jobs too.
People would do better jobs at building cars and teaching our children if their jobs actually depended on their PERFORMANCE! Gee what a thought...
web_geek @ 112:
Pretty much, yes.
Governments are communes by their nature: a monopoly that forbids others to compete with it on the products and services it provides, and enforces the loyalty of its customer base so they have no choice but to buy its products and services at the prices and rates it wants them to.
They're all gonna lose their jobs... remember, they are competing with competent auto workers in places like China and Thailand and Mexico, where they get paid $2 an hour, or less... compared to say $40 an hour in the U.S. Now who the frick would YOU hire?
Udon Nomee @ 111:
King of Mean @ 115:
Sweet! Then that means soon we will all be able to buy super awesome cars and super cheap prices. Look at Hyundai for example. They came to the US with crap cars, and they sold like 8-track players. Buy Hyundai fixed their quality problems, and managed to keep prices low, and now they are selling very well. Its a textbook free market success story.
And I dont see reports of Hyundai employees bitching in the Korean press.
Aaron Kinney @ 113:
If this is true (and it isn't. the concept of "tenure" wasn't invented by unions) then your roommate needs to get off his ass and get involved in the union and change it, not sit around crying about it to you.
Udon Nomee @ 118:
You are absolutely right! Well said :)
I have told him that the solution is to break the stranglehold that the teachers union has on the public school labor pool, and he agrees, but he doesnt bother to try cause he thinks its an impossible goal :(
It's truly fucked but this country is going to have to fail and fail hard before it can move in a positive direction. Amazing that the terrorists want the US to destroy itself and the neo-criminals and robber barons are making that happen.
To anyone union-bashing, what makes you think you're not going to be next to play, 'How low will you go'?
The only jobs being made in this country are service sector jobs. We are all supposed to be each others maids or pour coffee for each other.
Udon Nomee @ 118:
I forgot to add that while the concept of tenure wasnt invented by unions, its now utilized by unions, and "tenure" is an uncompetitive practice regardless of who wields it. So whether or not the unions invented tenure (which I agree they didnt), has no bearing on the validity of my assertion that, currently, the unions are a big part of the education quality problems this country is facing today. The LAUSD is one of the worst examples of this (thats the district my roommate works in).
Aaron Kinney @ 109:
:lol:
That's funny! Ain't nobody gonna mess with my choices!
Just go buy your Toyota now, won't you?
The current state of organized labour would have its founders spinning it their graves. What we have now is Big Labour vs Big Business. Both workers and consumers seem to be forgotten in the fight.
There's lots of blame on both sides. CEO and management compensation has grown disproportionally over the last decade or so and it no longer has any connection to the actual performance of the company.
UAW extracted exceptional benefits/retirement packages for its workers during the boom years, and the present day cost of those benefits puts the company at a huge financial disadvantage.
The unions have taken the easy way out and have indoctrinated their members with an "us or them" mentality. I'm "ignorant" if I disagree with the party, er, union line.
As someone upthread said, the so-called "American way of life" has become unsustainable. Just as the American frontier turned out not to be endless, and we're finding out that the oceans aren't bottomless, so too the pyramid scheme that is unbridled capitalism is on the verge of collapse.
Smack_dab @ 120:
Service sector includes jobs like insurance underwriters, financial consultants, computer services, and investment managers. You know, all those high-paying, white collar jobs where people get rich and buy mercedes and stuff.
Thats not a job segment that I mind working in, nor do I mind it being the segment that is growing.
And having more people pour coffee is an indicator of more wealth in the population, because its rather a luxury to pay someone to pour your coffee and shine your shoes, dont you think?
Aaron Kinney @ 116:
Aaron Kinney @ 114:
Oh, the irony.
Strawberry @ 18:
Have you BEEN to a GM dealership lately? Check out the sleek, affordable, nimble Pontiac G6. Look at the amazing Saturn Sky. Look at the CTS-V.
All those rappers seem to love the Escalade, and the US gov't can't get enough of the Suburban. Combined, sales of the GMC Sierra and the Chevrolet Silvarado dwarf their nearest competitors!
Oh, and Buick of all cars is more reliable than Lexus, thus making it the most reliable maker in the US. I believe that was just last model year in '06.
What a smug fucking remark.
Are you the type who'd buy a BMW or a Mitsubishi? Both of those emblems are meant to represent airplane propellers. What did these companies do about 60 years ago? Oh, that's right. They made planes to attack our air and seamen in the South Pacific and the European front during WWII.
And to think that we have to even attempt to persuade people to buy American. If they'd only consider them!
King of Mean @ 115:
I want to drive one of those safe cars!
/snark
Where’s the incentive for the American workers?
Keeping their jobs.
I see a need for unions, and at many employers, they'd be a boon so long as their demands were fairness. But the UAW veered into the business of extortion years ago, and now they are paying the piper. They have to give up some of their cherished benefits or hit the breadlines.
I am sympathetic to most workers, but the UAW membership lives in an alternate reality.
Communism/socialism has been the norm in human society for far longer than capitalism. Socialism is what got us to where we are now. It's only for the last few hundred years that capitalism has been dominant.
Why do those who hate socialism hate their fellow human beings? Why do they view their own species as disposable, little better than livestock?
Don't the paid trolls understand that if the neo-criminals win, they'll be out of work just like everyone else?
anon @ 8:
only because RepubliNazis refuse to stand up for the working class , instead siding with management and calling it "pro-business".
Remeber that, next time a RepubliNazi says they are "pro-business".
"pro-business" = "anti-worker"
web_geek @ 122:
Damn straight! ;) Im the consumer and where I spend my money determines the fate of these workers and their bosses.
Actually I currently own a Ford Mustang, which is a gas guzzling, unnefficient, constantly-breaking-down PIG of a car. And the reason I can still afford this obsolete behometh is because of the high wages that my non-union service sector job affords me :)
But if I were to get a new car, like a truck or a high-efficiency sedan, it would be a Japanese car all the way.
Le Roi Est Mort @ 127:
After three Hondas in row, I just got a 2007 Pontiac Solstice GXP. It's the first new car I've ever bought in my life, ordered exactly the way I wanted it.
A fantastic uffking car!
Nick @ 129:
How is it folks are so against Unions??
"cherished benefits"??
ya mean like "health care"??
lol.
Or maybe its the paid vacation??
Wouldnt want working class folk tryin to spend time with their children in the summer or anything.
I mean you are infering that these folks are getting some sort of extravagant pay/benefits package that consist of a nigs ransom, rare jewels, exotic animals and far-away tropical Islands.
Its fuckin living wages and health care for their family.
Its not like they get million dollar bonuses like the ceo's.
Smack_dab @ 130:
No. They don't.
Aaron Kinney @ 119:
And as long as he does nothing about it, his is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
The conclusion that, therefore, the fault lies with the union, and the removal of the union from the equation will result in the removal of the problem, is simply wrong.
With all the crapaganda and anti union sentiment floating around it's established fact that many UAW factories are world class at the top of their game in quality and efficiency. So many should stop pooping on UAW.
Udon Nomee @ 125:
The UAW contract that GM signs limits GM's ability to produce a competent product because of the tying up of resources that the contract causes.
Yes. Specifically, managements failure to toss the UAW to the side and go the Toyota route.
"Fair" wages and benefits are determined by the market, not decreed by unions.
If GM doubled its sales next month, it would HAVE to hire more workers and pay them more because otherwise it wouldnt be able to keep up with consumer demand. Consumer demand for a given product or service determines the amount of workers the company employs, and the amount of money they pay in wages. Geez man, I learned this in my basic economics course. Supply and demand, hello?
Ah yes, so you expect that if a company wanted to, it could hire the amount of employees that it prefers, and pay them what it prefers, regardless of the demand for its product and the quality and competitiveness of the labor pool? If you sell more cars, you have to build more cars, and if you build more cars, you need more employees to build them, and if the going market rate is X dollars for X job, then you have to pay a wage competitive to that, or else nobody will apply for the jobs you have available. Simple market facts, my friend.
Smack_dab @ 130:
You have it exactly backwards.
News flash: the neo-criminals are socialist, big-government, big-legislation types. If you want freedom and prosperity, vote for Ron Paul or dont vote at all.
A few weeks ago on the back of a Ford SUV was the mega-popular (here in Michigan, anyway) bumper sticker that says:
"Out of a job yet? Keep buying foreign."
To the right of that sticker, hand-painted, was an arrow pointing to it that said:
"This bumper sticker was made in China"
I'm not sure what that guy's point was, but that's a pretty fucking dry irony.
Seems like the Chinese love American cars and hate the Japanese brands. Buick, Cadillac, think Shanghai pre 1930s. History is a bloody bitch. That worries UAW as GM could start thinking "China" as demand for American cars goes way up. China buys American, America buys Japanese, Europe buys European; it's like a big circle jerk.
juanchopancho @ 137:
So why does nobody want to buy the products that are coming out of those factories? Note: GM sales have nosedived.
Admittedly, they are doing better in product quality than they were before, but they STILL cant keep up with Toyota, Nissan, etc. Toyota is honestly building a better truck right now. And aside from a few random examples like the Soltice, etc, the Japanese cars are overall the better product.
Aaron Kinney @ 138:
aaron kinney---"i am not a troll, i'm not! i'm not! can't you see i'm a human being?
can't you see that I CARE about the workers? i just want them to be happy!
you left wing bullys...waaahhhhh!
i'm not i'm not i'm not!!!"---holds breath---we hope.
Aaron Kinney @ 142:
So who is to blame for that , the engineer/designers or the guys that follow orders and assemble what they are told , how they are told.
Do you think the UAW workers bring sub-standars steel to work in their back pocket to sabotage product quality??
Aaron Kinney @ 139:
How very Fascist of you.
Ron Paul, the only Republican running for President who isn't 100% batshit insane. Somehow that makes him into a savior even though if you look on any streetcorner you can find someone with more sense than Ron Paul. Apparently in the land of the totally fucking retarded, aka Republicanville, the only slightly idiotic is king.
Jenny'O @ 144:
So I take it that you have no substance to your "STFU i am an ex Toyota employee" argument?
Okay, just checking.
And yet here I am, having an honest productive dialogue about econonics and the UAW strike, and IM somehow the troll. Note: disagreeing with people in the comments section and specifically talking about the issues relevant to this C & W entry is not trolling a priori.
Aaron Kinney @ 132:
Good for you non-union service sector working guy! I'm not in a union either. Big deal. I'm fortunate too, and grateful. My hard work and good fortune does not limit me from supporting other hard workers in a field of laborers.
And as you'll see upthread a bit, I've been driving Hondas for the last 18 years or so.
Do you support supply side economics? Just curious.
kulshan @ 145:
As I conceded before, the low product quality is the fault of the GM bosses, who were stupid enough to tie their resources up in either A) UAW promises, or B) bonuses to themselves.
The Japanese on the other hand put as much money as they can into product development, which in the long run helps out the consumer, the factory worker, AND the bosses.
Not at all. I think that the UAW leadership (not its rank and file members) put an unfair stranglehold on the labor pool which, in combination with bad GM management dicisions, causes these strikes and causes their low car sales and will eventually cause their bankruptcy and the layoff of all those UAW workers.
And then there will be many more Toyotas on the streets.
Smack_dab @ 146:
Dont get too excited my friend. Although I would prefer a Ron Paul win over any other in 08, its still a "lesser of the evils" game. I am not going to vote in the general election at all because it is against my principles.
Well actually the neo-con repubs hate Ron Paul more than the Democrats do. Its a sad silly game, Ill admit. But I prefer batshit insane presidents who are anti-war and want to minimize government and taxes, over the batshit insane presidents who are anti-war and pro-welfare/subsidy/big government.
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