'The Revolt of the Generals'
Rudy Giuliani recently argued that U.S. military generals, by virtue of their service, necessarily have more credibility than practically anyone else. With that in mind, I wonder what Giuliani and others who share his approach to foreign policy have to say in response to the 20 generals who have defied tradition and rejected the Bush policy in Iraq.
The generals acted independently, coming in their own ways to the agonizing decision to defy military tradition and publicly criticize the Bush administration over its conduct of the war in Iraq.
What might be called The Revolt of the Generals has rarely happened in the nation’s history.
In op-ed pieces, interviews and TV ads, more than 20 retired U.S. generals have broken ranks with the culture of salute and keep it in the family. Instead, they are criticizing the commander in chief and other top civilian leaders who led the nation into what the generals believe is a misbegotten and tragic war.
It’s become fashionable in some circles to believe that patriotism demands uniformity. If you support the troops, the argument goes, then you support their mission. To even question the merit of a war while combat is ongoing is, to some, a sign of disloyalty.
These generals, thankfully, believe the opposite — they have a duty to speak out, and they will not shirk their responsibilities.
Why do Generals hate the military?
and.....frist
Retired generals don't count.
Generally speaking...
There was a feature in our local newspaper about a bunch of WWII vets who went to see the new Ken Burns' documentary, The War. I think they were guests of honor at a premiere of the first part of the film. Not sure.
At any rate, afterward they were asked for their opinions. One of them said, "I can't tell if it's anti-war or 'support-the-troops'..."
With all due respect to such a veteran, why do so many people have trouble with the concept that those two positions are not mutually exclusive?
Traitorous generals! Off with their heads!
Why to the generals hate America and want the terrorists to win?
Thankfully we have combat dodging chickenhawks like Bush, Cheney, Lieberman, the neocons, the 101st fighting keyboardists and the 29 percenters to protect America from her own military officers.
xtien @ 5:
I think what he was trying to say was that this war would be a lot more fun if they just stopped showing us the dead people.
Rusty Shackleford @ 6:
If only Boy King George and Darth Cheney has their way.
Will congress move to have a nonbinding bill to condemn what these generals said?
Supporting the war and supporting the troops are almost mutually exclusive.
Your headline is a little misleading. These are retired generals, not ones in active service. The generals who are still active duty can't speak out. The generals you mention can say anything they like against this war. Active duty generals would face a court martial.
I support the troops being treated fairly and humanely. I do not support sending them into war based on a shitload of lies.
(spell check finds no problem with the word "shitload". That's kinda cool)
I hope this becomes a coup. While their at it, they can dismiss the supreme court and the congress too. We'll start from scratch.
This would not be necessary if the
waract of aggression/invasion had been thoroughly vetted, discussed, debated by honest leaders in the first place.There's a reason why the military is referred to as the Dept. of Defense. Duh.
Oliver North.
Nuff said.
pissed off patricia @ 10:
Excellent point! Everybody should call their congresscreatures and demand that they censure these generals!!! This horrible, horrible political speech should not be countenanced!
pissed off patricia @ 10:
Hardly. GOPers are dumb but they're not stupid. Republican bullies only go after the easy targets like non-Christians, atheists, gays, immigrants and MoveOn.org.
Swiftboating Democratic war veterans John Kerry and Max Cleland is one thing, swiftboating a horde of military generals is something else all together....but then again, they are Republicans so I wouldn't put anything past them.
lisp voiced, cross dressing, serial groom Rudy wants every general to be a doormat for the repubs and their AWOL prez and 5 deferments VP
I think this matter will be resolved swiftly. GOP talking heads will claim these generals are not intelligent enough to gauge and war and that some liberal traitors put them up to it. One the dittoheads of FOX get this message, they will calm down about the outrage of their "lies"!
Dissent and respect for dissenting opinions are at the very core of what America is, and what it means to BE an American.
This country was founded by troublemakers.
14 signs of fascism post:
4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
Rudy is running on a fascist platform. Period.
What concerns me is how much blind faith Americans seem to have in the military and in particular the Generals, and why is the Right-Wing facilitating this blind faith? What do they have in mind??
Those Generals are actually upholding their oath.
speaking of revolt..
..Where is the REVOLT from our ELECTED Congress on this...
--> Bush Attorney General nominee helped mask FBI's pre-9/11 failures
and kept al Qaeda's infiltration of US intelligence from view
http://rawstory.com//news/2007/Author_Bush_nominee_helped_mask_FBIs_0925...
..and WHO is in charge of our DHS computers?
Hackers compromised dozens of Department of Homeland Security computers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&add...
..and speaking of computers... Whatever happened to that Promis software story?
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.01/inslaw.html
And just why did a former LAPD narcotics investigator and whistleblower
have his office burglarized and his servers smashed?
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/070506_offices_burglarized.shtml
Patthemokey @ 3:
Very well said. If these generals, whom liberals are so fond of praising, were really concerned about doing the right thing, then they would be emulating the example of Lt. Ehren Watada. As Watada pointed out in his speech at the Veterans for Peace convention in Seattle in 2006:
"The American soldier [and he is also referencing officers as well] must rise above the socialization that tells them authority must always be obeyed without question.Rank should be respected but never blindly obeyed."
He also emphasized that "The oath we take swears allegiance not to one man but to a document of principles and laws designed to protect the people. Enlisting in the military does not relinquish one's right to seek the truth-neither does it excuse one from rational thought nor the ability to distinguish between right and wrong. 'I was only following orders' is never an excuse."
This is how this illegal and immoral occupation should end, by those soldiers and officers having the courage to say NO to the war machine by refusing to obey those illegal orders that they are given. The documentary Sir! No Sir!, which chronicled the GI Resistance of the Vietnam War, showed the tremendous effect that the soldiers had when they spoke out against that unnecessary war. If they do not speak out, then they must realize that they are complicit in being part of the illegal occupation and brutalization of the Iraqi people.
When did Americans become so deferential to the military?
If someone quotes a General then everyone has to STFU because a General has spoken!
Bullshit.
I'm all for the military leaders speaking their mind... that's democracy. Kowtowing to them is not. We should be electing leaders that make good decisions, not letting unelected Generals control the debate.
Until the generals and admirals submit retirement papers and hold press conferences on the day after retirement, ,specifically stating that they have retired in protest - before they had otherwise planned on retiring, their revolt doesn't actually mean all that much. If they don't, they just saluted the flag and went along until it was convenient for them not to salute the flag. Moral credibility, possession of the moral high ground, comes from taking effective measures the moment you come to believe that what you are doing is wrong. Personal sacrifice. Assuming personal risk on behalf of an ethical or moral position. Every officer has the ability to resign, on the spot, without prejudice. None of them have done that yet.
It's nice that these guys have come out after the fact, but the way that they are doing it is not a whole lot different than the mere revising of personal histories. They've waited for a convenient time. That kind of waiting makes their subsequent words mean not all that much to me. Imagine how little such gestures end up meaning to The "Commander in Thief", who is a delusional liar and a self-justifying dilettante.
If the flag officers are expecting to make a difference, they can't leave Bush any wiggle room for rationalizations. Their words, gestures and acts have got to be in Bush's face. If not, he and his toadying propaganda corps will find a way to marginalize the generals into irrelevence. Their influence, if any, will be only a fraction of what it could have been. And nothing will change.
Just my opinion.
Just to lighten up the mood a little, today CNN has been all over the stuff BillO said after he visited the restaurant in Harlem the other night. They are inviting him to call in and explain what he said. One FOX official sent them a note saying their reports on the matter were just sad. Of course BillO said his remarks were taken "out of context"
This is like watching a train wreck and both trains are loaded with Sapphire gin. You don't want anyone to be physically hurt, but you do see prospects for gains. ;)
AMAZING at what kind of hack jobs they are doing to their once loved generals in the Conservative Blogosphere. I cannot believe the selective memory they have on them. Funny, when a former GENERAL, a battle hardened commander, who has seen actual war comes out and makes critical statements, they get blasted by the freepers and what not on those blogs. Take a look at the Free Republic and Right Wing News. A while back, when Colin Powell spoke out, they immediately deemed him as the WORST joint chief, ever. Incredible!
You're OK, but if you speak out against, you're mud! WTF?????!!!!!!!
Rudy is running on a fascist platform. Period.
Where is Smedley Butler when you REALLY NEED HIM????
These 20 generals were the Pentagon patriots putting love of country above self. Unlike General Betrayedus.
Bret @ 23:
Control of the military is a requirement of any fascist regime. It is even more so with regard to American democracy. Our military takes an oath to defend the Constitution. It is not beholden to any man...but to the ideas, principles and laws outlined in the Constitution. The right has always claimed a divine right to the imperial presidency. The military is an obstacle to such an abomination.
Bret @ 23:
people who have blind faith in the military have obviously never been in the military.
see? a draft solves all kinds of problems.
If Petraeus retired tomorrow and publicly stated that the war was not winnable, should never have been fought and sucked from the beginning, what would they say about him?
This current mis-Administration is responsible for so many historical milestones....and all BAD! The most recent for me is the huge gap between the 'haves' and the 'have nots'. Thanks to link in a comment here, that gap has reached the 'magic' seventy percent. A gap that has rarely happened in two-thousand years of world history. The scary thing is usually one of two things happen when that percentage is reached. Total economic collapse or (gulp) revolution.
Other firsts include:
*ex-presidents publicly criticizing a sitting-president
*the highest deficit ever seen in U.S. history
*highest trade deficit never before seen
*unwarranted covert spying on U.S. citizens
*the legislation of torture
*suspension of Habeas Corpus
*'free-speech zones'
*most use of 'signing statements'
*most powerful Vice President
This is just a few examples. I am sure there are more. What about the things we don't know about considering this White Houses over-secretiveness? Why hasn't our criminal pretender President been impeached yet? Why is this filth being allowed to complete it's term?
...When a 'Seven Days in May' solution starts to look better than the status quo....(and it almost does now...) You know your ass is in trouble....and so is this country............. JD
speaking out after the fact is the ultimate in cowardice
so typical of americans
Ricky Bones @ 29:
Yep... I knew they'd throw the guy who argued strongly for going into Iraq under the bus when he admitted that it was a mistake.
Remember the general who said we would need more troops to successfully invade Iraq? He was promptly thrown under a fast moving bus.
So?
Nothing is going to change.
These 20 retired generals are now fodder for the reichwing echo chamber.
This is disgusting:
Link
"Oh man, here's some detonator cord. I gotta get this out of my neighborhood."
There goes your head.
I guess once the word "retired" appears after your name, you are useless and not worth listening to if you are military. Funny, they make it sound as though they are above all else when they are serving but once retired, who the hell cares what they think?
Ricky Bones @ 29:
...and if you're still active and you tell the truth, you suddenly become a retiree.
Ruthless People @ 9:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHfRjiM8TNc
Jack Damage @ 36:
Which is why any contrarian generals have been purged, why the National Guard has been sent out of the country, why troop levels are at historic levels (particularly at a time of war), and why power has been centralized to the White House.
Liberal AND Proud @ 45:
And I know the next question, why send the military away, when they may be needed to defend the White House.
They WON'T. The generals are the problem. They are educated and can rally support. The American people are SHEEP, and will be and ARE BEING controlled via Fox Noise and a compliant media.
"It’s become fashionable in some circles to believe that patriotism demands uniformity. If you support the troops, the argument goes, then you support their mission. To even question the merit of a war while combat is ongoing is, to some, a sign of disloyalty."
It sure is working great for the Republicans. There is no way to stop them or even slow them down. The Republicans have now got the Democrats believing whatever they say and giving them all that they want and more.
There isn't anything left for progressives to do but to continue to sit on the sideline and watch and send more threatening letters to their congresspeople to be ignored.
Loonie @ 11:
Your name says it all moron First of something can't be "almost" mutually exclusive secondly removing them from harms way in an illegal occupation supports their lives
ysbaddaden @ 44:
Hahahahahaha, oh my.
tunepang @ 30:
Reading about Smedley Butler, I saw this:
In 1934, Butler came forward and reported to the U.S. Congress that a group of wealthy pro-Fascist industrialists had been plotting to overthrow the government of President Franklin D. Roosevelt in a military coup. Even though the congressional investigating committee corroborated most of the specifics of his testimony, no further action was taken.
A little further research and one learns that some of those "pro-Fascist industrialists" included the Bush family!
The Revolution will be televised.
Boring Scott @ 8:
dead people , what dead people , i never see any dead people on the news ,
"dead people , what dead people , i never see any dead people on the news ,"
The dead people will not be televised.
I'm sure alot of the grunts in the field are feeling a lot of revulsion 'bout now.
konchster @ 48:
Maybe he's a Canadian dollar.
Liberal AND Proud @ 50:
Probably Pay Per View only.
Liberal AND Proud @ 52:
Only on Dancing With the Stars.
i think it's been 3 or 4 years ago now. i was visiting some old friends of mind. someone mentions the bush bunch and we talked -i think about wes clark- i said 'at this point i wish some generals would march into the white house, arrest cheney (if they can find him) and bush and hold the gov until we can have special elections monitored by say--holland.' everybody there was -- hear hear!
it's not too late generals.
serving generals...take your cue from the generals that almost got rid of hitler. put you country above your career.
A lot of the public's anger about the war in Vietnam was taken out on the returning troops. Anyone in uniform might have been called a baby killer even if he or she never left the continental United States. It's not easy being called a baby killer when in you managed to get through four years of war without harming anyone. It's especially tough when you were a medic, and spent the war trying to undo the damage done by others.The caduceus on your collar was not a protection from verbal abuse.
It took a while, but we came to understand that it was wrong to take it out on the troops. Especially since most were draftees and went to war against their will, so we came up with the concept of supporting the troops without necessary supporting the war. A much better idea but tough concept for Republican's to get their brains around.
I can't think of a better way to support the troops than to get them out of harms way. Every time George Bush asks for another 6 months he's also asking for the expenditure of another 500 lives. Since this was an unnecessary war, it's hard to justify the loss of those who have already been lost. It's even harder to say, ok Mr. Bush here's another 500 lives to squander.
And that ad sponsored by the right wing, taken out on a full page in the Wall Street Journal, asking if these generals betrayed
their country. Anyone seen that one?
dennis @ 59:
The right wing doesn't have to pay for that. The WSJ editorial page will give it to them for free.
to Carmikl at #58
myth myth myth
my brother was one of those returning vets as were several ppl i knew...they were never ever disparaged by any of the anti war ppl. never.
actually my brother was himself anti-war. he went into the air force so he wouldn't have to slog thru the jungles. he didn't seek deferments or go to canada because he needed to help support my mom and us other kids.
we were so happy and relieved when he came back home.
that is the way the vets came home.
the spitting and the baby killer taunts may have happened once or twice in one or two places but it is NOT TRUE that they were universally despised by the anti-war people.
Rusty Shackleford @ 60:
Let me know when you see it, Big Russ. I get busy some mornings and don't get around to reading it.
dennis @ 62:
Read that rag yourself and get back to us. kthxbi
Didn't some reichwinger in Congress suggest that the op-ed War As We Saw It couldn't have been written by those seven soldiers stationed in Iraq, because they weren't smart enough?
Since then two have died, and one is in the hospital with a head wound.
Jenny'O @ 61:
It's kinda hard to call my own personal experiences a myth. Of course, maybe depends on where you live but based on my own personal experience, and that of others who I served with who left the service at the same time, it's not a myth.
The error is to use one's position -- as General or President -- to compel others to blindly obey. US General during Vietnam -- Westmoreland -- would love this despite his misleading statement on US progress in Vietnam:
Those in "positions of trust" are and do rely on that "position" when all other arguments fail.
Muse @ 67:
Who's got a list of the Generals who have condemned Bushco's war?
Carmikl @ 68:
I'm sorry Muse, I just can't seem to get this blockquote thing right so I botched it on my reply @68. Hopefully I got it right this time. Otherwise maybe I should just go doddering off into the sunset.
Our founding fathers went to great lengths to keep our military under civilian control. George Washington warned against the dangers of having a standing professional army. That's why the Constitution reserves the right to declare war to Congress. Placing our ultimate trust in our generals is down right un-American.
If a General protests, he gets retired. Retired generals don't necessarily matter. The Reich wing just impugns their credibility. The Generals in place NOW are the ones who need to stand up and revolt. But Bush has done a pretty nice job getting rid of anyone who doesn't spout the company line. We have a bunch of yes men left..
Remember the ousting of 4 star General and army chief of staff Eric Shinseki over his estimation that we would need atleast twice the troops in Iraq? Well, now we know why. It wasn't because Rumsfeld is just plain arrogant and stupid. It's because that cold and calculating son-of-a-bitch already knew that Blackwater mercenaries were going to be in Iraq doubling the amount of soldiers on the ground anyway. (Although quite clearly that was not enough.)
I wish the members of our military would refuse to carry out the insane bidding of the civilian monsters that are running this country into the ground and bring an end to this sick war by revolting.
That these retired Generals are speaking out is unprecedented and should be a wake up call to everyone in the country. Someone mentioned in an earlier post that they cannot speak out while in uniform while another suggested that they should and are only worried about their career if they do speak out while still on active status. If a military officer speaks out against the President while in uniform, he will surely be censured and possibly demoted as required by the UCMJ. But it actually goes further than that because they are still subject to demotion and censure even though they are in a retired status. These are people who have honor and to be known that they served their country with an unblemished record is an integral part of that honor.
My feeling is that they retired before stating their opposition for some personal reasons but probably more importantly because if they had done so while active they would, through distractions that court proceedings, become ineffective in their command capacity which would degrade the mission of their command. This would degrade the effectiveness of the military overall. This is how you can more easily see the difference between the courageous Generals who left a life of the military that many have spent anywhere between 25 to 40 years or more, and a dilettante like Petraeus.
These are people who understand that we went to war under prepared and that the war is in itself based on lies. Just be glad that they have spoken up at all because they are representative of what our military is all about. Let's hope that they aren't being replaced by worthless scum like Petraeus who truly are only in this for personal gain.
This article is only partially effective. For an effective argument there needs to be a list of the generals and a summary of each one's views. Quoting a number of generals is good news reporting and I enjoyed the article but strong talking points are necessary for argument an debate. jp
rudy gets stupider with each marriage.
xtien @ 5:
Because it's the same people who voted for repugs.
nate @ 26:
This is what chimpy wants us to believe, although we know they (chimpy's man-servants) only serve as buffer for him. It has nothing to do with chimpy acting like his self-proclaimed name, decider.
Maybe they are tired of having sworn on oath that they believe is worth dying for and have determined that they must speak up or their oath is worthless. Unlike Petraus who has done his duty to his little sissy god Georgea W. Bush. I know petreaus is blushing and humbled by George but a real person would have challenged the Pres..
Republicans think it is OK to vilify Generals who disagree with Bush, but we cannot vilify the jerks he sends out to obviously lie for him.
Well he and the republicans can just get mad, because there is a whole lot more coming to not just the lying ass Generals, but all of them that dare to continue to use media to spew their hatred and vermin at decent American citizens and they can take that to the bank along with the billions they have stolen.
Loonie @ 11:
We know that Bush Doesn't support the troops. He vetoed a 0.5% pay raise, longer period of rest for combat troops and additional funding vor the VA. His idea of supporting the troops is keeping them in theater longer, and calling up reserves for 4 and 5 tours? WTF.
pissed off patricia @ 13:
what about "kinda"
Actually, what the generals are saying DOES matter, folks.
Here's why:
1. The people are giving their opinions weight when they read them in the news or read the books and articles a couple of them have put out.
2. While it is true that the rightwing propaganda machine has the biggest megaphones, more and more people are pushing them in the background while they seek their news elsewhere
3. Bush's flop at the UN is a perfect example: there was only cursory applause at the beginning and end of his speech, and no applause at all - NONE AT ALL mind you - during his speech. He talked about what fantastic guardians of freedom and democracy America is. No one believed him.
4. Active military and their families here at home and abroad on bases in Europe and elsewhere have the internet and read too. More and more of them are beginning to see the light and realize this particular war is wrong, and that attacking Iran is another big boondoggle for which their lives will be asked and the lives of their spouses will be traumatized forever.
5. As more generals, Republicans, lifelong conservatives, and prominent media personalities speak out, the right becomes less and less able to characterize the antiwar movement as a bunch of mindless drugged out hippie-communists, which of course, for this particular war, has NEVER been true.
6. Secrecy, complacency, and the reticence of people to speak out provides the necessary environment for fascism to rise. The generals are correct in identifying it as their patriotic duty to speak out. As US citizens, it is our duty to our country to do so too. IMHO, anyone who is antiwar and doesn't speak out is shirking their duty.
While it is true that the White House can try to malign or ignore them, many of the rest of us ARE paying attention. For us, the very fact that the White House is trying to suppress their views is a flag that their views are important and need wider exposure.
ecotopian @ 12:
That's not true. Several of the active generals disagreed with the policy in Iraq, primarily because they were asked their opinion, and then those opinions were disregarded. I'd love to see the Pentagon try to court martial them. We're libel to continue our descent to Rome and have the military banned from home soil so they can't unseat the treacherous Presdent-cum-Emperor.
‘The Revolt of the Generals’
Rudy Giuliani recently argued that U.S. military generals, by virtue of their service, necessarily have more credibility than practically anyone else. With that in mind, I wonder what Giuliani and others who share his approach to foreign policy have to...
This article is dishonest as these generals are not agianst the war. They just disagree with its execution. Rudy is correct. you are a tool.
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