First, no spin.

Watching timmeh is torture enough. Just the thought of "timmeh the talking turd" makes me nauseous.

"Double the Gitmo, double the fun!" -- Wittless Romney

Game set match, with that answer Timmeh. hillary put that pumpkinhead in his place. SHE is running for prez, not her husband. more of that sort of answer should be given to the press.

Here's an interesting and disturbing read from The New Yorker about the nut behind that torture loving series, 24:

Whatever It Takes
The politics of the man behind “24.”

The office desk of Joel Surnow—the co-creator and executive producer of “24,” the popular counterterrorism drama on Fox—faces a wall dominated by an American flag in a glass case. A small label reveals that the flag once flew over Baghdad, after the American invasion of Iraq, in 2003.

...“People in the Administration love the series, too,” he said. “It’s a patriotic show. They should love it.” READ ON
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/02/19/070219fa_fact_mayer

Oh, and I forgot to add that Mr. 24 from the link I posted above is very close friends with Rush Limbaugh. Bring on the pro-torture propaganda and get all of the Americans on board!

Kay @ 4:

Regardless of who you support in this debate, I think there is a consensus that all of these candidates would be better in this situation than anyone on the other side of the aisle. The only GOP candidate that isn't giddy with the idea of torturing someone is John McCain; the rest of them are eager to water board someone.

You forgot Ron Paul.

Imagine this scenario:

An overweight nitwit gets a big paycheck to allow fascists to "control the message" every week on his political talk show. Imagine that. Imagine it.

beth @ 11:

Oh, and I forgot to add that Mr. 24 from the link I posted above is very close friends with Rush Limbaugh. Bring on the pro-torture propaganda and get all of the Americans on board!

I'm still going to enjoy next season's '24', as Janeane Garofalo has joined the cast.

I love her to death. I will have to watch.

Here's some torture we can all endorse: TO ‘OBTAIN’ HILLARY’S CONFESSION ABOUT IRAQ

Tim Russert is a disgusting excuse for a news person. He should go waterboard himself!

Troy @ 13:

Kay @ 4:

Regardless of who you support in this debate, I think there is a consensus that all of these candidates would be better in this situation than anyone on the other side of the aisle. The only GOP candidate that isn't giddy with the idea of torturing someone is John McCain; the rest of them are eager to water board someone.

You forgot Ron Paul.

You're right. Forgive me. I think I forgot him because I associate him with an actual conservative agenda instead of the fear/war/hate mongering of the rest of the GOP candidates.

Does anyone else think that it's insulting to make an issue out of Hillary Clinton's differences with her husband on a particular issue? To me it is patronizing and a bit misogynistic. She is an elected official and is entitled to think for herself. By the way, she apparently differs with her husband on the armed forces' "don't ask don't tell" policy as well, having criticized the policy in previous debates. And she agrees with her husband on most other issues. Big deal.

Kay @ 23:

Troy @ 13:

Kay @ 4:

Regardless of who you support in this debate, I think there is a consensus that all of these candidates would be better in this situation than anyone on the other side of the aisle. The only GOP candidate that isn't giddy with the idea of torturing someone is John McCain; the rest of them are eager to water board someone.

You forgot Ron Paul.

You're right. Forgive me. I think I forgot him because I associate him with an actual conservative agenda instead of the fear/war/hate mongering of the rest of the GOP candidates.

Really? That big R next to his name has me thinking he's as big a sack of shit as the rest of the Repugs.
He's just a good liar.

My respect for Hilary went through the roof with that line. She delievered it perfect and held that stare at Russert while that smuck pussy lopped the question back at her. She was a very good sport to laugh off the follow-up to ease the tension.

PopeTodd @ 27:

Kay @ 23:

Troy @ 13:

Kay @ 4:
You forgot Ron Paul.

You're right. Forgive me. I think I forgot him because I associate him with an actual conservative agenda instead of the fear/war/hate mongering of the rest of the GOP candidates.

Really? That big R next to his name has me thinking he's as big a sack of shit as the rest of the Repugs.
He's just a good liar.

Look into his record... He's not like the other republicans. I'd love for him to be President since he's honest. Having an R next to your name on TV doesn't mean you're repugnant.

As for Hill-dawg, I lost respect for her last night. She was not at her best and she looked and sounded more like Bush than she did her husband.

When I think about it long and hard, I realize that the big (R) next to Ron Paul's name is less of an (R) than is the (D) next to the name of Hillary Clinton and John Edwards.

The (D) next to their names? It's really an (R). You know it. I know it.

There is one (1) candidate, (D) or (R) who would bring our soldiers home NOW.

That's Ron Paul. Hate him for the (R) if you like, but I have waken to the fact that the (R) and (D) don't make a goddamned bit of difference anymore.

The question to ask in today's world is...

Who's a corporate whore and who's not?

Ron Paul gets my vote.

Don't forget about the Dems voting record when it comes to Moveon.org.

Ron Paul (R-TX) has it right on the war, but he's a nutjob on everything else. He's Grover Norquist's wet dream as he wants to do away with basically all of govt. He doesn't just want to get the size of govt down to the size that he can 'drown it in a bathtub,' he wants to hold its head under while Grover films it. He wants to dissolve FBI, CIA, IRS, Dept of Education, FEMA, Social Security, HUD, ... (well, it is at least amusing to consider no IRS, but let's get real).

Ron Paul is the looniest Pres candidate in my lifetime, that's without a doubt.

Say what you want about Hillary, but she's the only one that can hit the ground running AND thwart the right wing smear machine. You don't really think Rove is just sitting back and relaxing right now do you? They may not be able to win the White House in '08 but that won't stop them from trying to hamstring anything Democrats will try to acomplish. Kuchinich is a great guy but repugs will eat his sweet little patootie like a deep fried twinkie at a redstate country fair. She's a Dragon Lady.

justabill @ 35:

Ron Paul (R-TX) has it right on the war, but he's a nutjob on everything else. He's Grover Norquist's wet dream as he wants to do away with basically all of govt. He doesn't just want to get the size of govt down to the size that he can 'drown it in a bathtub,' he wants to hold its head under while Grover films it. He wants to dissolve FBI, CIA, IRS, Dept of Education, FEMA, Social Security, HUD, ... (well, it is at least amusing to consider no IRS, but let's get real).

Ron Paul is the looniest Pres candidate in my lifetime, that's without a doubt.

Thank you! I was going to say the same thing, or thereabouts. The man is a libertarian who couldn't get elected as such, so he joined his retarded cousins in the GOP.

rduke @ 36:

Ron Paul has as much chance as Dennis Kucinich...

Why would you ignore Dennis ... and I assume.. jump the aisle so to speak and vote for Paul .. ??

When Kucinich is going to do just about everything positive that Paul would do.. and more with progressive policies.

Bingo.

If it is Repug it is not to be trusted at all.

justabill @ 34:

Ron Paul (R-TX) has it right on the war, but he's a nutjob on everything else. He's Grover Norquist's wet dream as he wants to do away with basically all of govt. He doesn't just want to get the size of govt down to the size that he can 'drown it in a bathtub,' he wants to hold its head under while Grover films it. He wants to dissolve FBI, CIA, IRS, Dept of Education, FEMA, Social Security, HUD, ... (well, it is at least amusing to consider no IRS, but let's get real).

Ron Paul is the looniest Pres candidate in my lifetime, that's without a doubt.

Well..

We could certainly prosper with NO CIA.. DEA.. FEMA... a totally reformed IRS and getting rid of the Fed Reserve. I weep no tears for seeing any of those go... In fact I would rest easier and feel better on my death bed knowing that my children did not have to cope with the bullshit and waste those alphabet bureaucracies that for the most part are cannibalistic on our and the worlds citizens..

Why should we keep these established criminal intelligence agencies?

When we can dissolve them and build new and better agencies that can be made to be never allowed to do the dastardly things ...agencies like the CIA are world famous for.

Defend the CIA... LMAO never

I much prefer the term Repuke.

Timmeh is a jerkoff.
There's really no netter way to describe him.
I was watching him and Matthews after the debate/inquisition and they were gaffawing and back slapping about Timmeh's loaded questions the way adolescent boys do after they hang up the phone after doing a crude prank phone call.
Timmeh really gets his rocks off setting up and trying to make asses out of the Democrats, but we all know he'll be taking a "wide stance" and serving up softballs to the Repub candidates.

Well, here's one Hillary skeptic who's had his eyes opened.

She was awesome. She answered the question head-on, simply, with no mincing. She didn't launch into a tiresome list of what she'll do "when I"M PRESIDENT!"

And, then, the ending. She handled that dogturd Russert like a little boy!

tim russert chose these questions? is he auditioning for fox news?

chris m @ 48:

oh yeah, let's not have gravel have a say here.... very nice... very....

He didn't get asked about it. I put a clip of every candidate that got asked about torture in that segment in there. Don't blame me. Blame Timmeh.

It's very unfortunate that this question needs even to be asked. This should not be an issue.

BTW, not that this topic has anything to do with Ron Paul, but:
Dimple @ 33

Ron Paul gets my vote.
Don’t forget about the Dems voting record when it comes to Moveon.org.

Don't forget Ron Paul's voting record when it comes to Moveon.org

yenehC hcaepmI @ 44:

Please forgive PopeTodd for appearing to want to emulate the very republicans he's calling names.

Honestly PopeTodd, when I come here and see people only offer a few "repigs" or "repugs", it gives me the impression they really don't have a grasp of what is going on in America and around the World.

Don't you feel like Bill O'Reilly by trying to discredit someone by calling them a name?

Don't take to good people of this blog to that level please.

Nope, just responding in kind.

Don't you feel like a concern troll chastising me like that?

No.
Ron Paul voted against the Moveon resolution.
He was the only Republican to vote NO.
Just stop the lying.
http://blog.oregonlive.com/politics/2007/09/blumenauer_votes_against_fun...

Hillary? She voted for the resolution to condemn Moveon.org.
Ron Paul? Like I said. HE VOTED NO.

Yeah, don't forget Ron Paul's voting record on awarding the Congressional Medal to Rosa Parks.

What a scumbag.

Dimple @ 46:

The Democrats in the House pile on to condemn Moveon.org (our only voice) and all my peers can manage is thoughtless, snide remarks about Ron Paul.

{cue twilight zone music}

I'm gonna have to go third party. The Democrats have lost me on this one.

Better than voting Repug. RP is a freak and you new breed of trolls aren't going to get him elected here.
We've been through this before, many times before.

I like Dimple used to be a democrat but now realize both are the same...We are not repug scumbags...but democrats who can see their party has also been hijacked by neocon mindset. Hillary and Obama are not gonna pull out the troops...its part of american policy now, democrat or repug cuz of big lobbying groups like AIPAC and the oil companies. Wake up PopeTodd dont be a mindless drone for the democrat party simply b/c the label DEMOCRAT. Realize the dem party you support today was not the party that got Bill Clinton into office. It is a bunch of spineless swine that cave into repug/neocon demands.

BTW Dimple, are you Indian?

Dimple @ 59:

No.
Ron Paul voted against the Moveon resolution.
He was the only Republican to vote NO.
Just stop the lying.
http://blog.oregonlive.com/politics/2007/09/blumenauer_votes_against_fun...

Hillary? She voted for the resolution to condemn Moveon.org.
Ron Paul? Like I said. HE VOTED NO.

When you start calling names like "freak" and "troll" you know you've lost the debate.

The Democrats in the House could vote to condemn everyone who voted for them in the last election, and they would still get your support, PopeTodd.

That's because your understanding of current affairs runs no deeper than the R or D next to the name of your favorite corporate whore.

Dimple @ 46:

The Democrats in the House pile on to condemn Moveon.org (our only voice) and all my peers can manage is thoughtless, snide remarks about Ron Paul.

{cue twilight zone music}

I'm gonna have to go third party. The Democrats have lost me on this one.

Dimple @ 42:

FBI - Criminals
CIA - Criminals
Dept of Education - sucks up all the money that should be going to teachers.
FEMA - heck of a job, brownie.
IRS - enforcers of the fiat currency that is the American dollar. The same debt-based currency our forefathers were fighting against in the Revolutionary War. The income tax is unconstitutional and doesn't pay for schools or roads, rather it pays the interest charged to you by the notFederal notReserve.

And Ron Paul's crazy for wanting to get rid of crime in government.

mmmmK.

If you're not for the Democrats, you're for the Republicans. America's Mayor thanks you for your support.

Dimple @ 67:

When you start calling names like "freak" and "troll" you know you've lost the debate.

The Democrats in the House could vote to condemn everyone who voted for them in the last election, and they would still get your support, PopeTodd.

That's because your understanding of current affairs runs no deeper than the R or D next to the name of your favorite corporate whore.

No Dimple, dealing with trolls is what we've been doing for a couple of years here.
Call em if you see em, don't debate them cause it's a waste of time.

A few of you are putting forward that we thinking folk should vote R because this one is different.

Horsepucky.

A Repug is a Repug.

And you along with a couple of others here are asking that we cross party lines to the dead zone and vote for one when we have Dennis on our side and he's a THOUSAND times better and let's face it, he's not a nut job.

If you troll you will be called a troll.

PopeTodd @ 63:

Dimple @ 46:

The Democrats in the House pile on to condemn Moveon.org (our only voice) and all my peers can manage is thoughtless, snide remarks about Ron Paul.

{cue twilight zone music}

I'm gonna have to go third party. The Democrats have lost me on this one.

Better than voting Repug. RP is a freak and you new breed of trolls aren't going to get him elected here.
We've been through this before, many times before.

I'd consider myself a center-left independent in the political arena and I've been on this site for more than 2 years now. I would hardly take being called a troll seriously just because I think I should be free to show my respect for Ron Paul, the only man in both parties with balls big enough to go in public and burn the neocon establishment.

From now on...
Any Democrat who voted for the resolution to condemn Moveon.org is not a Democrat, but a war-loving Republican.

You can put Fruit Loops in a Grapenuts box. That doesn't mean the cereal in the box is Grapenuts.

Dimple @ 59:

No.
Ron Paul voted against the Moveon resolution.
He was the only Republican to vote NO.
Just stop the lying.
http://blog.oregonlive.com/politics/2007/09/blumenauer_votes_against_fun...

Hillary? She voted for the resolution to condemn Moveon.org.
Ron Paul? Like I said. HE VOTED NO.

Do you even read your own links?
Congress voted to condemn the Moveon.org ad by a vote of 341-79
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll910.xml
Ron Paul voted to condemn the ad.

Bob Roberts @ 69:

If you're not for the Democrats, you're for the Republicans. America's Mayor thanks you for your support.

Thanks for filling me in Mr. President.

Dimple @ 74:

From now on...
Any Democrat who voted for the resolution to condemn Moveon.org is not a Democrat, but a war-loving Republican.

You can put Fruit Loops in a Grapenuts box. That doesn't mean the cereal in the box is Grapenuts.

Nice! That plays for Paul as well you know.

justabill @ 72:

Oh yeah, those Clinton years were terrible! Thanks for reminding me. Wouldn't want 8 more years of that.

:-/

Clinton years were wonderful...but you honestly think given the current situation we are gonna get that again...i think not...just because hilary is his wife doesnt mean that we are gonna have conditions to bring about those wonderful years. You know why the clinton years were wonderful (I love bill dont get me wrong on this but)?

1.) Democrat in Presidency + Repugs in Congress = Nothing gets done by the governemnt
2.) When the government is inefficient in passing legislation, people have more freedom to do what they want to do..hence the prosperity we had.
3.) If Hill gets in we will have all three branches under teh same party and we'll get similar BS to what we have had the past 7 years. People wake up government is best if it is out of our lives. That is what the Bush presidency/ Repug control has taught me. But if we have dems bending over backwards and taking it up the butt...we are having a continuation of the repug control...and hence the horrible state we are in...Bush gets what ever he wants accomplished...

I Miss Monica!
http://deanfriedman.cf.huffingtonpost.com/

I really really really do.

PopeTodd @ 78:

joe @ 73:

PopeTodd @ 63:

Dimple @ 46:

Better than voting Repug. RP is a freak and you new breed of trolls aren't going to get him elected here.
We've been through this before, many times before.

I'd consider myself a center-left independent in the political arena and I've been on this site for more than 2 years now. I would hardly take being called a troll seriously just because I think I should be free to show my respect for Ron Paul, the only man in both parties with balls big enough to go in public and burn the neocon establishment.

Repsect him sure, vote for him never. He's a nut bag.

I'll make up my mind in november but I know I'd vote for him over Hillary without hesitation.

Moose @ 80:

Dimple @ 59:

No.
Ron Paul voted against the Moveon resolution.
He was the only Republican to vote NO.
Just stop the lying.
http://blog.oregonlive.com/politics/2007/09/blumenauer_votes_against_fun...

Hillary? She voted for the resolution to condemn Moveon.org.
Ron Paul? Like I said. HE VOTED NO.

Do you even read your own links?

Congress voted to condemn the MoveOn.org ad by a vote of 341-79
Ron Paul voted to condemn it.
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll910.xml

Oh man that was so good. *two thumbs up*

joe @ 85:

PopeTodd @ 78:

joe @ 73:

PopeTodd @ 63:

I'd consider myself a center-left independent in the political arena and I've been on this site for more than 2 years now. I would hardly take being called a troll seriously just because I think I should be free to show my respect for Ron Paul, the only man in both parties with balls big enough to go in public and burn the neocon establishment.

Repsect him sure, vote for him never. He's a nut bag.

I'll make up my mind in november but I know I'd vote for him over Hillary without hesitation.

If you want to vote like that vote for Dennis, at least his head is on straight and his voting record blows doors on RP.
Don't give the R an inch, they've already rigged 3 elections. A vote for anyone under that banner is a vote for more of the same old same old, RP or not.

They are ALL good! The difference between the Democrats and the Republicans on this is shocking! With the exception of Ron Paul, every single one of them was intelligent and grounded. We could fight over the details, but damn, I'd take any of them!

Let me repeat this, since Moose and some other Book-Cover-Trolls attempted a big LIE.

Ron Paul voted against the resolution to condemn Moveon.org.

Here's the proof...

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll911.xml

Hillary? She voted to condemn Moveon.

Dimple @ 87:

Please stop lying, Moose. Good try, though, linking to a different vote! You little devil, you!
Here's the link...
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll911.xml

Ron Paul voted AGAINST the resolution to condemn Moveon.org.

Okay, I now realize I'm dealing with someone with zero reading comprehension skills.

If you look at your own link to the newspaper article.
Scan your eyes down to where it talk about "David Petraeus as "General Betray Us." The resolution passed 341-79."
And click on the link on "motion" in the same paragraph.

The vote you are referring to is an unrelated federal funding bill that was voted on that same day.
Let me know when you get it figured out.

Dimple @ 92:

Let me repeat this, since Moose and some other Book-Cover-Trolls attempted a big LIE.

Ron Paul voted against the resolution to condemn Moveon.org.

Here's the proof...

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll911.xml

Hillary? She voted to condemn Moveon.

Ever notice that nobody here is really into Hillary anyway? So why all the pointing at her like she's our fav or something?

That doesn't mean we like RP though. He is a Repug and gets no slack.
If you are seriously going to change parties you are on the wrong site and have earned the name troll.

Might as well wear it with pride.

That's one smart bullwinkle.

Dimple @ 92:

Let me repeat this, since Moose and some other Book-Cover-Trolls attempted a big LIE.

Ron Paul voted against the resolution to condemn Moveon.org.

Here's the proof...

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll911.xml

Hillary? She voted to condemn Moveon.

You got slapped HARD! Did it hurt troll?

PopeTodd @ 91:

Dimple @ 87:

Please stop lying, Moose. Good try, though, linking to a different vote! You little devil, you!
Here's the link...
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll911.xml

Ron Paul voted AGAINST the resolution to condemn Moveon.org.

So I see he did, he voted for it before he voted against it.

He's still a R, no quarter for R's, ever.

Or was that the other way around... BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!

PopeTodd @ 98:

Very nicely done.

Troll alert!

Credit where credit is due. It all belongs to Moose.

Don't go away mad Dimple, just ...

Well, what we have here is plain and clear evidence of the logic and comprehension deficits necessary just to be a Ron Paul supporter in the first place.

Dimple @ 103:

HJ RES 52
Mooses link is on the question: On Motion to Recommit with Instructions.
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll910.xml
My link is on the question: On Passage (of the resolution to condemn moveon.org)
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll911.xml

So, in the end, despite attacks from book-cover-trolls, Ron Paul DID INDEED vote AGAINST the resolution to condemn Moveon.org.

Nice try, Moose (book cover troll)

On no, you are the R trying to sway us here on the prog site. That make you troll of the evening darling.

Getting back on topic, I equate torture to attempting to have a reasoned discussion with a Ron Paul supporter.

Yeah, good ole' Eisenhower (not). The same repuke a$$wipe who ordered the overthrow of the secular democracy in Iran in 1953 that led to 25 years of a US puppet dictatorship held in place by our CIA trained SAVAK secret police that Amnesty International held was responsible for the worst human rights abuses on the planet. The shah's torture and murder record was much worse than Saddam's.

Just like Reagan's supporting Saddam and arming and training bin Laden. Republicans SUCK at foreign policy. That's why the middle east hates us.

Blowback" is a CIA term first used in March 1954 in a recently declassified report on the 1953 operation to overthrow the government of Mohammed Mossadegh in Iran. It is a metaphor for the unintended consequences of the US government's international activities that have been kept secret from the American people.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20011015/johnson

National Security Archive
Secret CIA History of the Iran Coup, 1953
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB28/

joe @ 112:

PopeTodd @ 101:

joe @ 99:

PopeTodd @ 88:

Did you ever hear Eisenhower's closing address?

Learn your history. The GOP was for long traditionally against starting wars and policing the world. It was actually leaders in the Democratic party who brought the country to places we didn't belong and sold us this Holy American Empire of today. The tables have turned because of ever changing factions within the two parties colliding evolving since the 1960's. Somehow remarkibly, the GOP works for the neocons today.

All I'm saying is try not to judge people by the image of the parties. Judge the individuals themselves.

I know my history, probably better than you from the sounds of it.
Nope, I'm going to take the party as a whole based on their CURRENT activity.
And they are CURRENTLY needing to be banished from the scene wholesale, root branch and stick. That includes RP.

Wouldn't that make a Democratic monopoly in the government? The only thing worse than this duopoly of the Rep/Dem establishment is 1 a party dictatorship. And it doesn't matter which one it is.

I don't think so.

Look at your recent history, as in current events.

The Repugs kicked the hell out of the Dems who had become corrupt and lazy. This turned the Dems into spineless jellyfish. Do the same to the Repugs should knock them down a notch and maybe kick enough real conservatives in the head hard enough to purge the NeoCreeps from their ranks for good.

I'm all for a total rout.

Not one Repug should make it past the next elections, no matter who it is.

It's called punishment.

Disco Inferno @ 64:

It's insanity to elect another Clinton or Bush to the White House. Why do people keep electing more of the same kind of politician? Why is this country so sick? More insanity is what a Hillary Clinton Presidency would produce. A sickening continuation of the last 20 years - Bush, Clinton, Bush, Clinton?!

We should all hope this doesn't happen - or we're doomed! Really...?

24 years of the same ole sick and tired shit after Hillary's first term. TWO family's running the White House for 24 years with a possibility of 28 years! DON'T YOU WANT TO KNOW WHATS BEEN GOING ON IN THERE? Won't that take someone outside the Clinton Bush dynasty?

Don't be insane - vote for sanity!

Dynasties: They're easier than thinking.

peachkfc @ 122:

Although I'm a little late to the game, since almost none of the commenters have answered the questioned you asked (which candidate acquitted him/herself the best?) I will: for once, it was the usually motor-mouthed Joe Biden who just said torture is wrong, it doesn't work, if I'm Pres, we won't do it. He wins this one. Hillary is a joke, Obama is not ready for prime time, Edwards has a lot of potential, Richardson and Dodd, especially should get much more attention but won't. It's so depressing. On the other hand, Russert is without doubt a total jerk. More important, how did a guy with no journalistic experience or credentials ever get to be considered the top TV "journalist" in the business?

Got that right, too bad Bidden is such an ass about everything else that I have a hard time believing him as well.

Kay @ 4:

Regardless of who you support in this debate, I think there is a consensus that all of these candidates would be better in this situation than anyone on the other side of the aisle. The only GOP candidate that isn't giddy with the idea of torturing someone is John McCain; the rest of them are eager to water board someone.

You guys seem to forget Ron Paul. The only canidate besides Kucinich who might have a clue about the Constitution. Can't you see through these people? I am not claiming to have an all powerful knowledge, I just don't want to believe the false prophets anymore.

You guys seem to forget Ron Paul. (...) Can’t you see through these people?

What's it with you Ron-Paulies already? Why take the one Republican who has still some decent bone in him - his other nutty convictions notwithstanding? Why giving the shoe to these Democrats?

They all said resoundingly no to torture, no exceptions. While the Republicans played Jack Bauer. I think that's reason to be proud to be a Democrat.

Certainly no reason to look for some strange ex-libertarian who is only against the Iraq war because he's an isolationist.

I. Conoplastic @ 12:

Timmeh's question can only be answered with another question right back at him:

Do you think what happened to Sen. John McCain would be applicable in our own struggle against Islamic fundamentalism? Would YOU do the same as the Vietnamese torturers did to him?

When you adopt the tactics of monsters, you become one. There is no longer any moral high ground.

thanks

Julie @ 125:

Kay @ 4:

Regardless of who you support in this debate, I think there is a consensus that all of these candidates would be better in this situation than anyone on the other side of the aisle. The only GOP candidate that isn't giddy with the idea of torturing someone is John McCain; the rest of them are eager to water board someone.

You guys seem to forget Ron Paul. The only canidate besides Kucinich who might have a clue about the Constitution. Can't you see through these people? I am not claiming to have an all powerful knowledge, I just don't want to believe the false prophets anymore.

No we didn't, he is a Repug.
Where do all of you clowns keep coming from anyway?

I don't like Hillary Clinton, but I do like what she told Tim Russert. That was an honest human moment up there, and momentarily, I thought well of her. But the only ones who flat out said torture was unacceptable were Biden and Kucinich.

LMAO, Hillary BITCH SLAPED Russert. All the Rep candidents would say yes torture them.

Libedhabahbahba - Timmeh!

Wow, Hillary lashed tim at the end, the clip was worth that alone.

Isome @ 62:

rduke @ 36:

Ron Paul has as much chance as Dennis Kucinich...

Why would you ignore Dennis ... and I assume.. jump the aisle so to speak and vote for Paul .. ??

When Kucinich is going to do just about everything positive that Paul would do.. and more with progressive policies.

Yeah... do not ignore the D-man!!

And I agree that Kucinich and Paul look like the best guys for the job right now. In the end this shouldn't be about "jumping the aisle," it should be about who as an individual is the best. Anymore, there is no real difference between Dems and Repubs. They all seem pretty screwed up and tainted to me. Anymore they really don't give a crap about representing what the people want. I'm pretty dang insulted by the fact that they seemingly see us as the "ignorant masses." I think our biggest concern at this point should be electing someone who is capable of heading off the special interest groups and making sound decisions based on the big picture. It would be nice to have someone in there who actually recognizes that they are there to serve human instead of corporate and powermonger interests. Too, Ron Paul has historically run on the Libertarian ticket. I don't know why that changed but I'm sure it had a lot to do with actually having a chance to win. I figure as muddied as Democrat/Repubican, Liberal/Conservative parties are I'm all for making a dang break for truth and Liberty.

You're getting the Ron Paul supporters here because there are few sites for moderates.

The Conservative sites are full of Anti-Liberal speech and the openly Liberal sites are full of Anti-Conservative speech. For those of us that don't have a party that believes in us, C&L is relatively neutral ground.

Before this last election, we saw Nancy Pelosi and Rahm Emmanuel dress up a lot of conservatives in liberal clothing and push them through the primaries. When I mentioned over at Eschaton that some of these people have conservative and anti-America records, I was called a concern troll and lectured that I should vote for them because they had a D by their name. Sure enough, they are voting Republican straight down the line. they are actually neocons, pretending to be Democrats.

Some people have argued that Democrats are better than Republicans, because they have a D instead of an R. I disagree. A Republican who lies, and puts a D in front of his name, isn't better than a neocon.

The leadership of both parties has sold out their base. They will not allow any candidate to survive the primaries, unless that candidate is a bonafide corporate bootlicker.

If the Democrat Party wasn't full of neocons that are pretending to be liberals and the Republican Party wasn't full of neocons pretending to be conservatives, I'd find something to like in each party. I want to vote for representatives that vote for the people and by the people.

Hillary is a neocon. She will continue the war and wage war in Iran, because that is what Israel wants. She'll say anythign that she thinks will get her elected in the mean time.

She just voted for more war! She loves the war! She wants more war!

Right now, I like Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul. But I know that neither are good enough bootlickers to survive the primaries.

Clean the neocons war lovers out of th Democratic Party and I'll come on board.

Weaseldog @ 141:

You're getting the Ron Paul supporters here because there are few sites for moderates.

The Conservative sites are full of Anti-Liberal speech and the openly Liberal sites are full of Anti-Conservative speech. For those of us that don't have a party that believes in us, C&L is relatively neutral ground.

Before this last election, we saw Nancy Pelosi and Rahm Emmanuel dress up a lot of conservatives in liberal clothing and push them through the primaries. When I mentioned over at Eschaton that some of these people have conservative and anti-America records, I was called a concern troll and lectured that I should vote for them because they had a D by their name. Sure enough, they are voting Republican straight down the line. they are actually neocons, pretending to be Democrats.

Some people have argued that Democrats are better than Republicans, because they have a D instead of an R. I disagree. A Republican who lies, and puts a D in front of his name, isn't better than a neocon.

The leadership of both parties has sold out their base. They will not allow any candidate to survive the primaries, unless that candidate is a bonafide corporate bootlicker.

If the Democrat Party wasn't full of neocons that are pretending to be liberals and the Republican Party wasn't full of neocons pretending to be conservatives, I'd find something to like in each party. I want to vote for representatives that vote for the people and by the people.

Hillary is a neocon. She will continue the war and wage war in Iran, because that is what Israel wants. She'll say anythign that she thinks will get her elected in the mean time.

She just voted for more war! She loves the war! She wants more war!

Right now, I like Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul. But I know that neither are good enough bootlickers to survive the primaries.

Clean the neocons war lovers out of th Democratic Party and I'll come on board.

This was very well said. I dunno that the word "moderate" is how I'd describe myself though. Given how far we've trailed from the spirit and mindset this country was founded on then I'd say a radical over/underhaul in perspectives is what it's going to take. I consider myself to be an independent thinker who isn't bound to subscribing to anything where I think there's a fundamental flaw. If something is fundamental true then I'm all for it and I'm not constrained by which group it comes from. I dont think we can consider Ron Paul a republican here because not only is it obvious they're not claiming him, but it's pretty clear he's prepared to strike out on his own for the people here. He's outing his party left and right for their collusionary tactics. He's outing the overall brokenness of the system. I think we should endeavor to be openminded because anymore we can't trust either "party." We have to look at the individuals here.

It disturbs me that people say it's impossible for these people to get elected because it's like giving up. I mean it's thinking like that that leads to the fact that we can't seem to come together in enough numbers to mobilize change. Defeatist thinking gets us nowhere.

Oh, and I commented here because I thought it was called "Crooks and Liars." Since their are Crooks and Liars on both sides I didn't realize that it was limited to Republican crooks and liars. Blind faith in the democratic party is as bad as blind faith in the republican party. Seriously, folks...

I've seen a lot of things in the last few days that talk about how the current state of things has bankrupted religion. I see a lot of truth in that. I'm bankrupt on my faith in the "democratic party." They sold us out and they were able to do it based on the fact that people put blanket faith in them. I still believe in the truth and our power, as individuals, to change things, though.

Carrie @ 143:

It disturbs me that people say it's impossible for these people to get elected because it's like giving up. I mean it's thinking like that that leads to the fact that we can't seem to come together in enough numbers to mobilize change. Defeatist thinking gets us nowhere.

Defeatist? Maybe. I think its just being realistic. The system is broken. The frontrunners are known long before the primaries. It amounts to who can raise the most campaign money. Which means who can suck up to more corporate money. In the end its not as much about issues and values as about power and control. Then, you have all the suspicious election manipulation like Florida 2000 and Ohio '04, if it matters at all,, because the average American casts their votes based on some sound bites they hear on the evening news, or on what Jesus tells them to do.

I admire Paul and Kucinich for staying in the fight and raising important issues. And I won't give up fighting for what I believe in either, but will put my effort into local grassroots action where I think it does the most good.