John McCain: Constitution Established a 'Christian Nation'
By Nicole Belle Friday Sep 28, 2007 8:11am
*Sigh* It is so sad to me that 200+ years ago, our nation's leaders were actually more enlightened than they are now...as the old Robin Williams joke goes, maybe Darwin was wrong.
Presidential candidate and U.S. Senator John McCain discusses the country's Judeo-Christian roots, explains why the prospect of a Muslim in the White House makes him uncomfortable, and reveals that he wouldn't undergo a full-immersion baptism until his presidential campaign is over.
BeliefNet is hosting videos of McCain on Islam, Mormonism, America as a Christian Nation and his move from an Episcopal to a Baptist church.
Login or Register to post comments.
Another wingnut pandering to the base - gee what were the chances of THAT?
There's no doubt that when McCain speaks of the less enlightened that he refers directly to himself. In McInsane's world "God's children" means that you are white, male, and christian. What a deluded twirp.
Rudy's top fundraiser sole backer of California electoral vote initiative
Wonder if this will get as much play as Hsu? Ha!
And the "I'm Nuts and Was Once Considered Presidential Material" Award goes to...............John "Batshit Crazy" McCain!!!!!!! Amen and pass the collection plate John.
I used to have a lot of respect for Senator McCain. I used to think that he would have made a good president in 2000, even for a Republican. I was even going to vote for him, if had secured the nomination.
Fast forward to the election of 2004 and I lost all respect for Senator McCain. Instead of fully supporting his good friend, Senator Kerry, when his friend's patriotism and service was under attack, he remained silent. Then, he campaigned for President Bush. At that time, I knew that Senator McCain had sold his soul to the devil.
In 2006, Senator McCain chose to "show" that he was tacking to the theocratic right by announcing his support of the Arizona voter initiative to ban recognition of not only gay marriage, but also domestic partnerships within the state. Luckily the voters of Arizona (including me) voted down this atrocious "initiative".
Now its 2007 and Senator McCain declares that the Constitution (everyone remembers this fantastic document, right?) somehow proclaims that we are a Christian nation? Please, could someone point to the clause of the Constitution that states this? Could someone show me where Christianity (in its many forms) is the official religion of the United States of America?
I think Senator McCain needs to withdraw from public life and allow those who truly understand what our Constitution means to be our leaders.
Uhm, excuse me, Anglican here. How the hell does someone who claims to be an Episcopalian undergo a "full-immersion" baptism? That has to be the most heretical thing I've ever heard of a politician doing. I'm assuming if he's in an orthodox Christian church, he's undergone baptism as a child. You don't go through that twice, not under ANY circumstances. That would be like having a second circumcision.
PLease stop giving this "tool" a platform. Youre pandering just like they are. HE IS NOT IMPORTANT. HIS IS AN IRRELEVANT WALKING DEAD MAN. STOP IT C&L. NO ONE NEEDS TO HEAR FROM MCCAIN.
Said it before, will say it again...
1. One can not establish freedom of religion without first establishing freedom from religion.
I'd actually like to see Obama elected as president....just because of the Muslim thing....
Can we get him to Bellevue so he can undergo some counselling. Has religion now replaced sanity and common sense. Ask McCain what Jesus would do in Iraq. One would hope it wouldn't be to illegaly invade, occupy, steal oil and kill the citizens.
He is SUCH a LIAR!!
I'm pretty damned sure that Jesus Christ was NOT A REPUBLICAN!
This just goes to show that not everyone who has worn a uniform deserves respect. Yes, he was a pilot who got shot down in Vietnam and spent a long time as a POW. That much I have respect for but the uniform does not bestow some magical aura of respect for the rest of your life and when someone uses that military experience from thirty years ago like some sort of shield to deflect criticism it lessens their military service. Jimmy Carter was a submarine commander in WWII but he never made that the center piece of his campaign. Bush I got shot down by the Japanese in WWII as a pilot and he could have easily used it as a platform to show his patriotism but he didn't.
What a panderer. It seems he has lost all self-respect in his lust for the presidency.
And he's a republican presidential candidate who's actually gaining support? The republican party has become the party of the losers.
Jesus was Middle Eastern and spoke Aramaic. So, McCain is going to tell me that Christianity is as American as American pie, cheeseburgers and muscle cars?
If Deists are Christians then McCain is right - but they aren't so he's wrong.
A significant number of those who were involved in designing our givernment were Deists. Most thoughful people agree that the founders were most interested in keeping religion out of politics.
If you are a Republican, are you allowed more than a single brain cell? It would seem not.
Are we not men? We are Devo!
McCain's comfort is not of paramount importance to this nation. His ego knows no bounds.
Gee, it's so nice to see a presidential candidate so well versed with the Constitution, Bill of Rights and the Treaty of Tripoli.
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
No Christianity mentioned there, no siree!
Bill of Rights:
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Lookit! No Christianity mentioned here either!
Now for the kicker!
Treaty of Tripoli:
Article 11
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
Maybe we should send copies of said documents to McCain and every other right wing fundie candidate.
SpankyTheMonkey @ 9:
I don't know what tam means. Obama is not a Muslim, if that is what you're thinking here. NTTAWWT.
Presidents are preordained by God and are therefore infalible.
No, wait, that's the Pope.
I think...
Oops. The above was supposed to read "I don't know what THAT means." I have no idea how the word 'tam' got in there. I'm on my first cup of coffee.
19 Nowonmai
Excellent synopsis.
FastMovingCloud @ 22:
It was probably the invisible hand of God.
Or the marketplace...
It's too late - the religious-right in this country has already done the damage. Our nation is but one small step away from a full-fledged theocracy wherein only white, MALE, heterosexual, Christian/Republicans will have first-class citizenship. The rest of us (women, atheists, liberals, gays, non-whites, Jews/Muslims/etc.) will be placed in ghettos and shtetls, if not worse.
This just goes to show that if you don't exercise your brain, when you get old it starts to ossify. This is what happened to Reagan. McCain has no more read the constitution than he's read the bible, and his opinions about it are just as ignorant.
DaveInRhodeIsland @ 25:
That sounds like a lot of work. Why move us around when we are so efficient at keeping them living in the style to which they have become accostomed?
When did the Straight Talk Express become a church bus?
Ah, never mind. It's going nowhere.
A few years ago John McCain was more enlightened. Like Phoenix Justice above, I would have had a tough decision last time around if he had been nominated and run against Al Gore. My faith is very, very important to me. But we see every day in the Middle East what happens when religious leaders gain power. Keep the church and the state separate. Just as he embraced Bush, McCain is now embracing the fanatical religious right. His straight-talk express has derailed. But he's not the only one on either the Republican or Democratic side to swallow his core beliefs to get the prize. And evidently deception is what it takes to be elected. Sad.
*accustomed (coffee needs more drinking...)
funny, i was just watching the Dawkins' god delusion on TV Links. How lame does McCain have to get before he is so pathetic you guys can just ignore him.
George A. Custer
Curtis LeMay
William Westmoorland
Oliver North
Colin Powell
John McCain
A few bad apples
Yet the troops in country are "phoneys"
rend @ 31:
The lamer and more pathetic he gets, the crazier and more outrageous he gets. It's a vicious circle. Wouldn't miss it for the world.
McCain has always been a mean, nasty Republican monster. People didn't want to see it because he seemed so nice, so honest. Next up, eagle scout Mitt Romney. That chin, that hair, that smartest-boy-in-the-class vibe will take him far, but look closely and you'll see a mean, nasty Republican monster - who's never in his public life said an honest word.
We don't really have to worry about becoming a Theocracy. Every President ever elected (or appointed) has been a Christian. Billy Graham has prayed with (given counsel to) every President since Truman. We have God on our side in every war. God is invoked in disasters, cerimonies and speeches by Media Pundits, candidates for office and elected officials. Candidates are asked what their favorite bible verse is during debates.
As i said, we don't have to worry about becoming a Theocracy.
I cannot believe idiots are considered viable Presidential candidates. Anyone who is such a luddite as to deny evolution (no need to 'believe' in it) or doesn't know enough American history to understand the Constitution the position requires s/he uphold shouldn't be a candidate. It should be an automatic disqualification.
I'm ashamed the public doesn't laugh them off the stage. I'm ashamed that the media no longer bothers to ask tough questions or follow ups and just accepts whatever blather escapes their mouths as an appropriate answer.
Some things are facts. There is no need to show "both sides" because one side is truth--the US was founded by Deists, not Christians and was NEVER intended to be a theocracy--and the other is lies. There's no 'you decide'.
I won't respect this country again until an admitted atheist gets elected into a (higher) public office.
btw, Muslim bashing gets you political points, anything else gets you kicked out of politics. Imagine if McCain said that some one of another religion (say, Mormonism) becoming president would make him uncomfortable.
Caren @ 36:
Hey, if people who want to become US citizens have to understand these basic facts, then maybe we should require our presidential candidates to know them also.
[McCain]reveals that he wouldn’t undergo a full-immersion baptism until his presidential campaign is over.
Which, thankfully, should occur fairly soon.
Thanks Jesus...
trev @ 7:
Everyone deserves a platform, that is what the First Amendment is all about. Even if you are McCain and your message is decidedly anti-Constitutional. C&L is one of the few forums that this policy is very clear on. Most of us here don't like McCain and know that he is an irrelevant numbskull and that is the point that we (C&L and readership) need to remember. This is what the First Amendment is all about. Until McCain is locked up as the certifiable lunatic that he may very well be, he has the right to voice his opinion and be heard. I hope that the day never comes that we no longer have that option. He will never get elected so he is not a threat for us. But he is an amusing distraction for the other side, isn't he? The neocons are beginning to feel the full weight of our strength! That only means that we have to keep pushing them off of the edge of the cliff and let gravity take over. They choose not to believe in evolution, gravity and a round Earth so it is only a matter of time until their beliefs go the way of Baal, Zeus, and all the others.
xoites defends Constitution @ 35:
I was hoping one of the smarter candidates would have told Mr. Russert, "Tim, though I understand why you think you need to ask that question, I am not going to answer it and here is why: The Constitution clearly forbids the use of religion to determine if a candidate is worthy of office. Specifically, the Constitution states in Article Six: The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States. So Tim, what's your next question?"
But alas, no one did.
In 2000, I had those good thoughts about McCain, too. The press did a good job of displaying his "good" side. I said I liked him (even though I would never have voted for him) to a republican friend (active in repub politics and I was trying to extend an olive branch). I don't remember his exact words, but he said McCain was an evil, deranged f*&%#. I was surprised at the time, but obviously, no more.
Mccain is pathetic. The Religious wrong will never accept him. Brave New Films blog had the great post about the guy living every law of the Bible for a year. "endorsing Christian Reconstructionism will help me win the primary"-Mccain
He would be an absolute danger to this country, all of them are bad but McCain is bad and scarey.
Phoenix Justice @ 42:
That would presuppose one of the candidates knows and understands the Constitution. By the looks of things it seems to be an historic document rather than a "living" one.
John McCain,
It's time for you to retire. You've become a caricature of yourself. You've degraded yourself so deeply, that it is embarrassing to watch you or listen to you. There was a time when I thought you had too much on the ball to indulge so readily in such willful ignorance. No longer. Now, you just appear to be demented - and that's on a good day. It's pathetic. Spare whatever dignity you still possess and just go away gracefully.
I keep looking for references in my Bible to Republics, Democracy, etc... I think these things may have Roman and Pagan roots. Christians throughout history have prefered monachy and despotism.
I'm not sure which is worse...McCain losing his soul or losing his mind.
More pathetic and desperate with every passing day.
McCain is beginning to make me believe that he shouldn't be voted for Senator, much less President. How can he defend the Constitution if he doesn't understand it?
Darwin was right, of course. Evolution only means change or adaptation over time - not necessarily for the better. Organisms adapt to their surroundings and those that are most successful are able to continue to propogate their genetic material. Those that aren't so successful eventually die off.
I'm hoping that McCain is part of the latter group.
Gee and the Native Americans say that a lot of it is based on the Iroquois Confederacy
I guess where the
Iroquios mentioned women, where the Consititution did not, is where the Christian nation meme fits it.
How about this "I will vote for no one who wears their religion on their sleeve."
I don't trust them, and actually these "religious" people have turned me away from religion, any religion. And specifically have caused me to have an almost knee jerk dislike for anything Chirstian, even the mention of the name "Jesus." (I'm fine when it is said in Spanish) . . . funny thing is, before 2001, I didn't have this disgust and dislike for Christians and their religion - I was even kind when they came to my door. . . now I read them the riot act, I actively avoid those wearing a cross or any establishment that looks Christian, etc.
I wonder how many people like me have been turned from "Live in let live. I respect you and your faith" to anti Chirstian in the past 5 years.
Cat Paw @ 52:
It seems to me he is attempting to adapt; to the Religious Right.
His plan to win over the ultra reich wing cult leaders involves many meetings in mens room stalls.
steve davis @ 6:
Because he's now a Baptist and what your sect gave him is now NOT good enough
Robin Williams is a notorious joke lifter. That line originally came from Mort Sahl.
"There were four million people in the American Colonies and we had Jefferson and Franklin. Now we have over 200 million and the two top guys are Clinton and Dole. What can you draw from this? Darwin was wrong!"
-Mort Sahl, 1996
more from the religious wrong - just a bit too much religious freedom has enabled far too many charlatans and fools in their mega churches with a tax loophole...
Darwin might have been wrong, but don't forget, Republicans have the nasty habit of saying something is true about government, getting into government, making that something happen and then going "see, told you it was true." Perhaps they're expanding on that approach and trying to act like we, as a society, are getting dumber (i.e. de-evolving? not sure what going in reverse evolution would be called) instead of getting smarter as time moves on. Then they can say "hey, if Darwin was right, why are we worse off overall now than we were years ago"?
Too cynical maybe?
Context: John McCain will say anything to get elected this time.
Buh Bye, John.
HDon @ 60:
Obviously that strategy is not working.
I do not understand the argument of Christian fundamentalists on this issue. When cornered, they'll say, 'well the founders were Christians, so even if they didn't expressly say it, the country was founded on Christian principles'.
Well the guy who invented VX nerve gas was a Christian, too. Is *that* founded on Christian principles?
Dum, dum, dum
Dum, dum McCain
Dum, dum, dum
Dum, dum McCain
Dum, dum, dum
Dum, dum McCain
Dum McCain
McCain should resign from the Senate for the Genocide in Iraq, along with Clinton, Biden, and Dodd, nevermind running for POTUS!
Clytemnestra @ 56:
Do you suppose his switch of denominations from Episcopalian to Baptist has anything at all to do with the fact that Baptists far outnumber Episcopalians in South Carolina, where McCain's floundering candidacy will be either reinvigorated or crushed beyond all hope in the primaries? If he were serious about switching, he would have already undergone the full immersion baptism.
I looked at the videos of McCain and read Beliefnet's partial transcripts and I have to say they cleaned him up MIGHTILY. It's McCain's hesitations and changes that really reveal his stupidity and his weaselage. Made me go through and type out most of the entire thing. It's on blog at Wondermachine. The full transcript really show's his idiocy. It's as if he's an elementary school kid who forgot the oral report was due and had to stand in front of the class and pull stuff out of his ass.
The funniest (or saddest depending on your take) part is McCain's quoting Emma Lazarus' "New Colossus" poem to argue the founding father's Christianity. Who knew Emma Lazarus was a founding father? It's just breathtakingly stupid.
Nowonmai @ 19:
Don't bother. They know.
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." - Joseph Goebbels
John McCain: I Cannot Read or Understand Simple English.
There, I fixed your headline.
I can't stand to watch more than 30 seconds of this. To think that I once thought McCaiin would make a good president! He is obviously pandering and saying something that he knows isn't true when he states that this country was founded on xtian principles. He isn't convincing at all. He knows the party line, he repeats it.
steve davis @ 6:
Sounds good for his scond choice, third choice, etc until his voice is real high.
steve davis @ 6:
Take it from somebody whose buddy had to do it, a second cutting is not a good way to spend a weekend. Better to be Bernie, he said.
McCain said:
But I think the number one issue people should make [in the] selection of the President of the United States is, 'Will this person carry on in the Judeo Christian principled tradition that has made this nation the greatest experiment in the history of mankind?'"
People like him must hate the Constitution. I do not believe for a second that they are ignorant of what is written in it. They just have a fun time bastardizing it because the ignorant masses know no better.
What an ignorant old coot (from one who's getting older and I trust wiser).
...
wanda gag @ 48:
Hey, wait a dang minute. I thought America invented Christianity and democracy.
1. McCain's timely conversion to Baptist isn't meant to be belived.
2. McCain doesn't believe his claim that we are a Christian nation, and doesn't expect anyone else to believe he believes it either.
3. McCain isn't really that disgusted with Senator Larry Craig, and nobody is expected to believe that either.
McCain desperately needs more supporters, but the only big Republican block avaliable to him is the Christianist movement. If Lyin' John can hold on long enough, the Brownbacks and Huckabees will fade from the scene and he hopes to be standing there with these guys:
Mitt Romney, whose heretical Mormonism is like poison to the evangelicals- as well as a threat to their existence.
Rudy Gullianni whose formerly liberal views and rep as a serial adulterer and 3 marriages make him unpalletable.
Newt Gindrich, same marital track record as Rudy, and a well deserved rep as a lying crook.
Fred Thompson, a former birth control lobbyist and no church goer with a big boobed trophy wife.
I can see how John McCain (who only has 2 marriages and his POW years as an excuse for his divorce) thinks he can church it up and win the support of the Dobsons if he kisses ass long and hard and often. He might pull it off.
I blogged about not filling kids heads with the idea that anyone could be president if they were not white, Christian and male in January http://orestia.blogspot.com/2007/01/you-too-can-grow-up-to-be-president....
In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty.
~ Thomas Jefferson
AF_Comm_Guy @ 13:
Carter graduated from the Naval Academy in 1946, he never saw WWII service. He was, however, selected by Adm. Rickover to be one of the first commanders of the new nuclear subs. Carter's naval career was marked by dedication and excellence.
God damn it. I hate that RELIGION has become part of politics. Religion should be a personal choice and nobody's business. You don't have to be religious to be a good person. And it's obvious religion doesn't MAKE a person good. George W. Bush is a perfect example of that.
McCain has lost his marbles. Just when I thought he couldn't go any lower, he does.
he is a sad, sad, pathetic man...
This nation was once upon a time INVADED AND THEN PERMANENTLY OCCUPIED by many who were Christian, but the GOVERNMENT was FAR from Christian based, although it respected Christianity, it also respected ALL religious beliefs as many who drafted our constitution were NOT Christian!
IMO, it's not really a stretch to think that the greatest propagandists of the last half century claim that America was founded by Christian men, for Christian men. It makes logical sense in the context of the Catholic church or the Church of England as the state itself. It's not a stretch to understand that if you want the most organized and loyal voting bloc in America to vote for you, that you'd propagate that claim ... a claim that is by no means a new phenomenon.
Yes, that claim is bullshit. Had that been what the founders explicitly meant, then that is what they would have written. But to their credit, they left much to interpretation by design.
So I am not confused by commenters assertion that this kind of pandering bullshit is pathetic. I'm a little confused at what seems to be surprise and disbelief that a sellout like McCain would use this old standard. There are tens of millions of Americans that believe exactly what he said. This assertion is old hat; it's been used for as long as I can remember.
I too used to respect McCain ... until he let Karl Rove and GWB ass rape him in 2000, only to roll over and stick his tongue in their mouths. He is irrelevant. He's done. He knows this. Why not just retire and enjoy the last 10 or so years of his life? Megalomania, that's why. It's prevelant in all politicians. It's what makes Newt Gingrich actually think that he could float the possiblity of running for president. It's also, sadly, what makes politicians successful and rich. 99.9% of politicians don't succeed unless they are rich. Rich people don't get rich by being wonderful people. They get rich by making you wax poetic about how they just ass raped you. (I said 99.9% just to make the Kucinich people happy)
I honestly want to know what happened to this man.
The Constitution is a tool to these Repugnants It shore as hell doesn't bother them to eavesdrop spy or torture not to mention suspend habeas corpus As I remember it the Constitution guarantees freedom of religion that implies freedom from religion as well and dictates the separation of church and state Am I wrong trolls
Remember the Christian oriented Apocalypse game based loosely on the Left Behind series? In that game the players - children - were encouraged to convert non-believers, and failing that, execute them.
Nothing like a little Christian mass-murder conditioning.
McCain is famous for his bad temper and rudeness. Who else would have gotten in trouble for a joke? "Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly?" Yeah, McCain fits in perfectly with the Xians.
i find it sad that a man who survived the tortures of the damned in nam has been unable to survive the tortures of the repug political base
mccain will die with the knowledge that he sold out all his core principles for a chance to sleep in the white house
Try as he might, John McFlip-Flop will NEVER be the GOP's nominee...if for no ther reason than the sad but obvious fact that he's too old and simply losing it! (Otherwise, the lack of character itself wouldn't be an impediment to the mouth-breathers!)
I couldn't stand or trust McCain even before people began to realize how batshit crazy he actually is. No offense to our vets here, but if a guy has spent years in a North Vietnamese prisoner of war camp do you really want his finger on the button if we get into a dispute with any Asian nation, especially North Korea or China? And his hypocrisy on just about every major issue is downright bizarre. But most of all is his lapdog attitude towards GWB. How can a man like John McCain ram his tongue so far up GWB's asshole? After the way Rove destroyed his campaign in 2000 he could have strangled Bush and gotten away with it - and probably gotten the presidency, too. But now people just see him as a loser and a Bush sycophant, and his actions after Katrina were truly disgusting, sticking up for the Boy King when he could have told the truth about this administration's incompetence. I really don't care how much time McCain spent as a POW. He can go fuck himself. He cares more about Bush and the Republican Party than about his country he supposedly loves, so fuck him. He's doing more to destroy our nation than any member of the Viet Cong ever did.
Why are we evening talking about Insane McCain anymore? I mean, I feel sorry for the man -- Alzheimer's is an incredibly tragic illness. But let's face it, Alzheimer's victims are not suitable presidential candidates.
The GOP have nothing but Jesus and terror.
Nowonmai @ 19:
It wouldn't matter. The basis for their position pre-dates the Constitution. They'll refer to The Pilgrims, The Quakers and Jamestown.
Of course, their history is dead wrong there too, but try convincing them of that.
I don't want a radical Christian or a radical Muslim in the White House. The Bushes and the Bin Ladens are two fascist families. It is no wonder they were business partners.
The Christian Right is a kindler, gentler version of the Taliban.
They'd love to turn America and the entire world in a Christian theocracy.
McCain= Boosh......simple as that....pandering.
If the right suddenly wanted to elect a Hare Krishna, John would be campaigning with his head shaved (except for a pony-tail in the back), and finger cymbals.
[...] Could evolution actually go in reverse? Story is here [...]
Let the dunking begin 'cause your candidacy is kaput!!!!!
Phoenix Justice @ 5:
Well said. Mc Cain simply does not have the courage be an authentic person. Any damn fool can be a panderer. And that's a lot of our current problem.
Good posts in this thread!
You know what really bugs me? When I hear, "The Founding Fathers were [X]." The Founders weren't monolithically anything in their beliefs. They were all white men, but even on that point, many were influenced by the beliefs of their wives, whom they respected, or even by conversations with their slaves, on occasion.
Indeed, many of the most famous Founders -- Franklin, Jefferson, Paine, Madison -- were Deists who had explicitly rejected Christianity. Jefferson himself was largely agnostic, and Paine openly decried Christianity as evil.
Others were Christians who passionately supported religious freedom and diversity, such as Adams and Hamilton.
Still others were indeed devout Christians, of varying stripes. And some of them did want to establish Christianity as the official religion of the federal government or of their respective states. Patrick Henry immediately comes to mind.
But these men, these great men, deliberated on this issue. And the majority decided, even the religious ones, that disestablishment was necessary. They studied history in depth, and even the southern Baptists -- no, especially the southern Baptists, who feared oppression by northern Anglicans -- opted for disestablishment. In the federal government, and in their respective states. Indeed, for southern Baptists now to seek establishment, or to portray the U.S. as an established Christian nation, not only betrays the U.S., it betrays their own cultural history. It is disestablishment that has allowed them to flourish.
History is complicated. Establishment is not. Establishment kills liberty. Always. To fight for it now betrays our complicated history, and the principles to which our Founders officially committed their lives, fortunes and sacred honors.
Oh come on guys! You know you all like to watch a good train wreck!
Besides, one good thing about McCain... He'll suck votes (and funds) away from the real threat candidates just like Nader did to Gore in 2000. That way when it comes down to whatever lying hypocrite crook Republican is left vs whatever coward sycophant the Democrats put forth the Democrat will win.
And in 2012, when the Iraq, Iran, Syria, Turkey ( and probably France since our elected leaders are dipshits) casualties reach 40,000 or so, the electorate has realized that the Democrats suck too, then we'll have a third party candidate have a real chance of actually winning the white house.
Clytemnestra @ 53:
Yup, over here, me, me! Now when ever I see that little fish on a car, I no longer think "What ever gets you through the night" (John Lennon) to keep the frig away from me or I'll run your ass of the road.
There should be no doubt to anyone that McCain is insane. The man has gone batshit crazy by following the Bushies.
Agreed. Lots of good comments in this thread.
Senility strikes the best of us...and to play fair it also strikes McCain.
There was a time when I had a begrudging respect for McCain. That is long past. One moment, he's the model for a Rockwell painting of the "candidate". Eight years later, he's a journeyman whore.
The republican candidates remind me of the old movie "Magic Christian". A bunch of guys that had some dignity at some time, wallowing in a huge vat of shit fishing dollar bills out of the sewage. Bon chance!
McCain is so desperate to be president he looks pathetic, tired, and defeated. The man is a disgrace to the McCain of 2000.
McDuff @ 15:
This is what the Christo-fascists want others to believe. They want to hide the fact that Anglo-Saxons and their white cousins have hijacked Christianity, which originally was born in the Levant and was composed of brown Arabs and Jews who had turned away from Judaism. But the American Christo-fascists don't want to belive that Jesus could have been anything but a white man with light brown hair.
Sorry McDouchebag, religion is blight, it is madness as opposed to the Constitution which was law, reason and sound doctrine until your douchebag party decided to ignore it completely.. Oh, by the way, fuck you! Why don't you die?
Great Frybread King @ 108:
I dream of Jebus with the light brown hair
any religious person in the white house makes me uncomfortable.
when MC Cain's senility speaks, Eugenics wins.....
He won't get dunked until after his presidential campaign?
What the hell is that all about?
Is he not telling us, in no uncertain terms, that he'll see how well his alleged Baptist conversion plays on the campaign trail before he fully commits to it?
"I'll see how well it plays to the base before I LITERALLY take the plunge"
Episcopalian? Baptist? In the immortal, if not paraphrased, words of a master; an asshole, by any label, stinks the same!
It seems that mccain is REALLY HUNGRY for some of those spoils of war - the money that is currently going by the millions to those in the cheney/bush WH.
He is so hungry that he is willing to go to any lengths to do so - pandering to anyone who will let him suck their privates, pandering to any religious group that may give him votes, pandering even to those who keep a war going for the ideological reason of "religious cleansing" by the wanton killing of Muslims.
Shameless, and scary all at the same time. Thank goodness, most think he is approaching senility!
the only problem with giving john mcain a full water-emersion baptism is that they won't hold him under water long enough.
the guy is a fucking idiot.
Kind of your ultimate flip-flop there.
Abraham Lincoln: Fourscore and seven years ago.....
JFK: Ask not what your country....
Bush: "We're kickin' ass in Iraq"
Romney: "We oughta double Gitmo"
This is just as sad as it gets .... is McCain for real here? Seriously. Are we supposed to take any of this as anything other than a desperate attempt to find voters.
And what's wrong with people that they need to have politicians cater to their private religious belief system? Anyone who has to have the Christian faith reflected in everyone they see is insecure and has no real faith in the first place.
Second the Christian belief system is based on myth and has no historical record other than the fact that everything written down about Jesus was done so almost 100 years after the time period he was supposed to have existed. There was no historical Christ ... the myth is plagiarized mostly from Egyptian beliefs and worship of the Sun.
You have to wonder why God waited this time period before channeling his word through to the world. Maybe God (dad) and Jesus when to visit Mary in another galaxy and that took over 100 years time. They just didn't no where the time went they were having so much fun.
George Washington was the head of his local Freemasonry chapter
Does that mean we're a nation of Freemasons?
I'm Scottish, I prefer to be paid.
bill w @ 71:
I'm an excommunicated Mormon. Their baptisms aren't even recognized as valid by the other branches, and I su ppose now mine isn't recognized by the church I was raised in.
How refreshing.
I'm sure other's have expressed the same thing but why does John McCain keep getting media attention? It feels like whatever happens, John McCain has something to say and his word gets out to our eyes and ears. Does he still have that kind of credibility? I hear more about what John McCain has to say than I hear about what Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama have to say. And they're frontrunners unlike John McCain who's scratching the bottom of the Republican voter barrel.
Go away, old man. Time to retire.
Poor Richard @ 117:
Add:
FDR: "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself"
McCain: "Bomb, bomb, bomb. Bomb, bomb Iran"
So are we a nation of Skopsi's, Old Believers & Gnostics?
Anybody subscribing to this kind of thinking should be barred from elective office.
John McCain - you seem to have finally, literally, completely lost your mind. Do you have any idea how many Americans you OFFEND with a comment like that?
You are a fucking idiot and I don't want a fucking idiot for president.
*
Trittydi @ 125:
But you'd accept a chaste idiot?
9/11 has really thrown conservative for a loop. It's thrown even their (admittingly few) balanced thinkers into disarray.
McCain used to seem to make sense. Since 9/11, he's as terrified and (over)reactionary as the rest of the conservative movement.
9/11 has put into stark relief who we truly are.
It's very sad seeing so many Americans so easily weakened and become paranoid advocates of totalitarianism. Escpecially when it's been accomplished by a few radical religious zealots. I suppose it shows how fragile their psyches, ideologies and worldviews were in the first place.
McCain has become a sad and pathetic figure. And he used to be one of only a few honest and rational conservatives.
The word conservative is rapidly becoming an epitath. Not something one should be proud to be labelled as.
A radio station here in St. Louis once had a really nifty minister on explaining why we should have prayer in public schools. I called in to say I was sure that would be fine until the day that the Buddhist, Hare Krishna, Catholic or Jew got to choose the prayer. Then the reverend probably wouldn't be so interested in having his little Christian charges saying the prayers of those faiths.
He told me that would never happen because this is a Christian country, founded on Christian principles and the prayers should be Christian prayers.. That was 20 years ago. Nothing much has changed among the true believers, has it?
If America was founded with any kind of religious intent it was founded with the intent that it's citizens would represent all kinds of religions.
The melanoma has metastasized to his brain. That's th only rational explanation I can come up with.
I wonder when these assholes will realize that all they are doing is DESTROYING christianity. Who will ever flock to such a hippocritical money grubb rich boys "its all going to be ok" club.
they pay to be diluded.
When did the "Judeo" part get added. From what I recollect, America at large, has been as anti-Jew as any other place on the planet. Wake up. We know that's true. I didn't say it was nice, I said it is true. I've heard the Christian Nation part, but Judeo is new. (Support for Israel gets deeper entrenched in the American psyche-- GOP.)
Yeah, that's what our founding Fathers REALLY meant by the separation of Church and State. I wonder if this 'Christian Nation' would be based on the old or new covenants? If he had his way probably the old covenant that way the government could stone people. If he has a full immersion baptism I hope they forget to lift him out the water.
The constitution makes not reference to any god, let alone to Christianity. Any claim that the constitution established a Christian nation is categorically false. Any person aspiring to the presidency, who would claim otherwise, is unfit to hold that office or any office of public trust.
Beliefnet is FARCE
They rate Huckabee as just as religious as Obama and Clinton? Give me a break. Huckabee thinks the earth is 6000 years old and Noah floated around in an ark and re-populated the entire earth from his waterborne zoo after a great global flood.
visit: http://FreeThoughtPedia.com/ for some rationality on these issues.
Edwin @ 134:
I'm sure you already know why it's called Judeo-Christian. But I'm surprised that you've never heard it before. It has nothing to do with the state of Israel that exists today, as you already know. It is because the Old Testament is Jewish, as was Jesus ... but I know you already knew that too. I'm just surprised you've never heard it before. To your point, I've always found anti-semitism ironic given my points above. But I'm no scholar of religion ... nor do I want to be.
Lets hear ya speak in tongues Senator. Psas the hpyiorcsy.
steve davis @ 6:
Good point, Steve!!!
Second circumcision, indeed!! LOL LOL LOL
Karen got it righter than most when discussing the theological foundations of this country. But she forgot to mention two important points. First, divorcing Church and State had multiple reasons. The first was that many of the founders did not trust the Church because of its connection to European monarchy...more on that later. The second relates to the pilgrims, that quintessential group of Americans from your school history lessons. Forget what you've been told and an ask an English friend about them. They were on Cromwell's side in the English Civil War. While they were in power, they outlawed Christmas, dancing, and a great many of the little things that makes life fun. Think of them as the English Taliban. When the monarchy was restored, so were all the things that the pilgrims had made illegal. They were not persecuted (so much) in England. They were mad that they lost power and so they came here to establish their own little theocracy where nobody would bother them for burning witches and the like. The obvious intelligence of the founding fathers was just as obviously perturbed by them, and made sure that they wouldn't grab the political power in America.
The second point is all about deism. Most of the founding movers and shakers were Freemasons. Calm down, don't get the tinfoil hat in a bundle. Whatever Freemasonry is today is moot. Back then it was a place for smart, esoteric men (and women) to gather...free of the Church. Yes, they claimed to have secret knowledge of an ancient character, mostly relating to Egyptian magic and "science". Washington laid the cornerstone of the Capital in full Mason regalia. His monument is an obelisk for a reason. They were tight with the French who led that revolution, one that was even more overtly Masonic. And over there, they attempted to de-Christianize the country...going so far as to convert Notre Dame into a temple of Isis, among other things.
Novo ordo seclorum...new world order. (again, not about conspiracy) It was about the cult of Reason. The pyramid with the all seeing eye, that was the header on "The Declaration of the Rights of Man" that founded the French Revolution. It is a representation of "God", but to a Mason of the time, you wouldn't call it God. Primal Geometer maybe, but not the Christian God. Along with the Egyptian element, there appears to be some heretical Christian elements as well.
Masonry seems to have been a refuge for the Cathars of what is now southern France (Occitania). The Cathars were "eliminated" by the Albegensian Crusades c. 1300. Their crime was to claim apotlistic succession from Christ. They thought that the cross was a symbol of torture and an icon of state power. They denied that Christ was anything more than an apparition sent by the God of good to shine a light. They were dualists. The God of good created human souls. The God of evil--Jehovah--created the material world. Hence, they believed the Catholic Church to be the Church of evil (who can blame them). Cathars behaved a lot like Buddhists. Some historians posit that life was so good in Occitania--everybody got along, women were equal to men, great thinking, etc.--that it would have produced a renessaince if the Church hadn't stamped it out.
Catharism wasn't new, the Church described it as a continuation of heresy stretching back to the first century. Then, it was mostly in Alexandria, and it claimed Gnosticism as one of its constiuent parts. Remember, the collected wisdom of mankind sat in the library of Alexandria...we all know about the great fire, but we hear little about the fact that the fire was set on the order of the bishops. A mob of Christians attacked the compound because heretics were holed up there. They went to the compound because it was the holiest of places in Alexandria and they thought they would be safe. Wrong. They were hacked to bits and the great library (who knows how much knowledge, since some of it had been brought from the Egyptian cities of Heliopolis and Karnak/Luxor) was burnt to the ground on purpose.
Masonry also has elements of the Templars, whose stronghold was in Occitania. Supposedly, they were loyal to the pope, but they never joined the Crusade against the Cathars. They were then elimnated by the Church, and the reasons were much similiar to the reasons for persecuting the Cathars.
This was the intellectual heritage of our founding fathers. If it had anything to do with Christianity, it was to break its hold.
From where i sit, it looks like the pilgrims won. Still, i like Isis and Toth/Hermes/Mercury better.
The American tradition of no established religion is the best concept the founding fathers ever implemented.It would be nice if those people concerned about our heritage as a Christian nation cold truly appreciate just how much they've benefited from this principle.
jackpine savage @ 141:
People like you are what's wrong with America. All of your book learnin and fancy words are destroying the fiber of the American family. Keep your fancy words. I'll keep my faith that God created America the Christians to thrive and prosper.
Just kidding. Good stuff.
Retired Navy @ 41:
Please dont hide behind the first amendment to justify your drivel. Simply pick a different story to exploit. Leave him for hardball and the other wastes of space.
You people are being mighty harsh on McCain. Not like I'm supporting him or anything, but your comments lack objectivity. A Muslim in the Whitehouse is ok, as long as he doesn't enforce his religious views on anyone. The same applies to Christians.
SpankyTheMonkey @ 9:
--
Thats why liberals are dangerous. You would vote a muslim for spite. And that Muslm will open all the doors for immigration of Muslims into our nations. And very soon liberals like you living in an Islamic nation will be killed and hanged for voicing your opinion.
Grow up u small minded short sighted liberal.
Why is McCain being hung out to dry for this?
Can the man NOT have his own opinion?
Do we not want our politicians to be REAL people with their own principles, not parrots who regurgitate what is popular?
What McCain is saying is completely understandable. He is simply expressing that he does not believe that a Muslim would make a good President nor a Presidential candidate for that matter.
How can we not expect a Muslim to do what everyone is criticizing McCain for doing? Muslims are very fundamentalist people. They do not just believe in the Muslim faith, but rather live it. Their faith is very structured, strict, and disciplined. To consider that a Muslim who sought the Presidency could set aside his/her beliefs to take on the Presidency, would be folly. The Constitution states that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States ", but it seems dubious that a Muslim would lay down his/her principles to take on the role as Commander and Chief. So why I ask, do we require the same of Mr. McCain? He simply stands on that fact that we are "one nation under God" not one nation under allah.
A recent poll found that 55 percent of Americans believe the U.S. Constitution establishes a Christian nation. What do you think?
I would probably have to say yes, that the Constitution established the United States of America as a Christian nation. But I say that in the broadest sense. The lady that holds her lamp beside the golden door doesn't say, “I only welcome Christians.” We welcome the poor, the tired, the huddled masses. But when they come here they know that they are in a nation founded on Christian PRINCIPALS.
Here is the question and McCains response. The notion that the United States is founded on Christian PRINCIPALS 'that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights... certainly indicates that the founders, all Christians, were referring to the Deity. What's the problem other then spin?
Login or Register to post comments.