AT&T: Say bad things and we'll cancel your internets
By Nicole Belle Sunday Sep 30, 2007 4:03pmNet neutrality, anyone? What an incredibly slippery slope we're now hurtling down...
Slashdot broke the news on Saturday that AT&T's updated terms of service for its high-speed Internet packages essentially forbid you from criticizing the company on pain of cancellation. The full terms of service are here, and here's the offending passage highlighted, courtesy of Ars Technica:
AT&T may immediately terminate or suspend all or a portion of your Service, any Member ID, electronic mail address, IP address, Universal Resource Locator or domain name used by you, without notice, for conduct that AT&T believes (a) violates the Acceptable Use Policy; (b) constitutes a violation of any law, regulation or tariff (including, without limitation, copyright and intellectual property laws) or a violation of these TOS, or any applicable policies or guidelines, or (c) tends to damage the name or reputation of AT&T, or its parents, affiliates and subsidiaries.
This is the exact kind of overbroad legalese that gets companies in trouble in ways they probably never thought of. If I am an AT&T subscriber, for example, and I post derogatory comments about AT&T on a site they own, does this give them leave to terminate my service? What if I post or send a complaint about AT&T to a complaint site or consumer news site, like ConsumerAffairs.Com (whom I write for), and they publish said complaint? Am I liable if I was using my AT&T ISP while writing said complaint? What if I did so while using my laptop at a Wi-Fi hotspot? The mind boggles.
Martin at S&R continues on with other egregious acts that AT&T has committed in the last few years, from cooperating with the Bush Administration on domestic wiretapping to blocking NARAL's text messages. And while Verizon's Terms of Service are no better, this kind of corporate fascism is truly disturbing. Tim Karr has more. Thankfully, I don't use AT&T or Verizon for my service, so I feel comfortable quoting William O. Douglas to them:
Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us.
Remember that.
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Who would ever have an unkind word to say about AT&T?
AT&T, SUCK MY BALLS! CANCEL MY CELL SERVICE, nevermind, i'll do it myself you fu*king traitors.
[Crooks_and_Liars_Blocked_Me, we did it again. You need to ASK to come back, not just take it upon yourself to do so on your own-Sitemonitor]
gaze upon AT&T and bow to your new masters...
:roll: guess which service I have
I'm on w/ AT&T. Let me be the first to say they suck. There customer service is non-existent, and well, they just plain suck.
Somebody pleeeeease take this to court.
I love cingular and I hate the fact that AT&T and cingular merged.
No surprise coming from the corporation that let the NAS install a spying appliance in room 641A.
This is begging for an ACLU lawsuit.
Actually we have been using them for several years and had no problems with service. We did have a problem one time and they sent a guy out on Saturday morning to fix the problem. He was nice as hell and stayed until he got it right. Our service was only down overnight. I'm not kissing ass here, just sharing my experience.
"For the laaaaand of the freeeeeeeeeeeeee .... and the home of the *CLICK* We're sorry, your service has been disconnected --hehehe.
You got Bobby "Black Panther" Rush to thank for this mess. He loaned his name to the bill introduced by the oil-soaked Joe Barton in the name of "bipartisanship".
And a cool mil from AT&T didn't hurt, either.
Cancel your AT&T account. It's just like complaining about cable news, but keeping your cable....hello? The only thing understood clearly by corporations, is m-o-n-e-y. The only way to get their attention doesn't involve t-shirts, plastic wristbands or crank letters and emails...it's choking off their funds.
Stop using AT&T. Betcha there will be a host of excuses for people keeping it, like the crappy "iphone." The bottom line is and always will be :Don't give them money.
Ok that's it for me any suggestions for service in the SF Bay Area?
Cooperating with? Aren't they owned by the shrub co. crime machine?
"Slashdot broke the news on Saturday that AT&T’s updated terms of service for its high-speed Internet packages essentially forbid you from criticizing the company on pain of cancellation."
I'm surprised it isn't pain of death. Never fear, as long as slaves to greed run this nation it will come.
Don't use AT&T for anything. A very long time ago I had the misfortune of working for them. In my opinion they treat their employees like dirt, they're sneaky with their legal clauses in your contracts to trip up their own customers and they play dirty union-busting tricks. Their prices are usually too high for non-existent service. After several years of working for them and watching them screw over customers, I'd had enough. I will not have anything in my home that has AT&T on it. I'm hardly surprised that they've introduced this new clause in their internet contract. Next time they try to give you a sales pitch, run far away.
Stop using AT&T and then what? Have no internet? Spend three times as much for Comcast? It's not like there's many options here and I require the Internet to work. It's not simply a luxury.
Knowing what I do, I don't really think my other options are less shady as it is. Evil company A or Evil Company B?
I had nothing but problems with AT&T service. My plan kept changing and kept getting switch back to them after I left.
Finally I've been AT&T free for a few years and happier for it.
AT&T's problems must be getting unmanageable, if they have to resort to shutting people up, to hide them from view.
Okay. Who's better? (For cell phone service.)
This is what the luxuries of a duopoly/oligopoly bring.
Ditch the cell phone. It is nothing but a dog leash.
The real question which needs to be answered: is anybody in Washington aware of this and do they take this into account this do-nothing Congress keeps giving the big Internet ISPs all that they want?
We need to clean house in DC, folks - Democrats and Republicans. The Democrats fail us on Iraq and just about everything else. The Republicans do too but that's to be expected from them. They ALL need to go (except Sen. Boxer - she's doing great).
Tony @ 18:
Of course, where there is absolutely no other option, there isn't much choice, however, there are more than enough 'voluntary' customers to put a pothole in AT&T's hamster wheel. Check your area for other companies.
So, if you're an AT&T customer, email the FCC. :P
I don't see what all the fuss is about. I mean, I have AT&T internet, and while their service is marginal, overpriced, far slower than speeds offered by other providers in my service area (like DSLExtreme, for example), and generally amounts to a multi-year contract for a great steaming turd masquerading as internet access, I find it hard to believe that just because I use their sevice to say so publicly, they would decide to termina
All I can say is: WHEN WILL AMERICANS WAKE UP?
Oh yeah! Shop 'til you drop and goofy teevee shows. That's all that matter.
Udon Nomee @ 26:
Thanks for the 'spit-take'....:D
My husband has a cell phone he has to carry for work. If the job didn't pay for it, he wouldn't have it. The personal phone is a pay as you go unit that I put twenty dollars on whenever I run out of minutes because that's the absolute minimum I can buy. Neither of these are with AT&T but it doesn't matter. I hate the damn phone and if I could get away without one, I would.
Just boycott the bastards and hit them where it hurts: in the pocketbook.
Boycott AT & T and be over with it.
AT&T screwed me on the my cell service. Charged me an extra $200 for nothing. They would not refund me so I quite them.
As an ATT customer, I'll pull my punches on what I really think about this other than: IT's CONSISTENT.
Isn't this kind of like Coke saying if you write anything bad about us we will no longer allow you to buy our product? I don't see their benefit in doing this. Maybe I'm not running on all gears today or something.
[Dimples. You are comparing apples to oranges. If you like the 911 crap, visit those sites please. There are plenty of them from which to choose-Sitemonitor]
First they spy on us for BushCo and now we can't criticize them.
Ah I see that AT&T is learning from the best fascist government there is .
With that kind of tattling going on it's not Big Brother watching us, but Little Sister.
Weaseldog @ 22:
No, mine has a camera on it too.
I'm calling to cancel AT&T right this minute.
What do I need a land line for?
Nada.
So what kind of terms of agreements do the Big Five owners of the media have with their outlets?
Rusty Shackleford @ 38:
Your dawg ate your camera.
What's it doing, taking pictures of its worms?
SonovaBITCH!
I live in the middle of nowhere in IT terms, and I have exactly two high speed internet options: AT&T DSL or SuddenLink cable. I have DSL now, but that's because Cox (before they sold my market to Suddenlink) had such abominably bad service that it was almost as bad as none at all--it worked about 2/3 of the time, and just plain didn't the rest. Technically there's a local ISP, but they're just an AT&T reseller, and satellite is way too expensive for my budget.
If nothing else DSL has been functional (helps that I live a block from the switching station), but now I'm faced with supporting AT&T or going back to near-broken internet. Crap.
Maybe I won't have to make the decision, since I'm badmouthing them now so they'll just turn my service off.
Seems to me, that this is a sweet way around their contract-cancel fee. Just start harshing them if you don't like it, and they'll cancel it for you. Better yet, when you do subscribe to their service, issue a signing statement that says that if THEY cancel YOUR service, you are entitled to a contract-cancel fee.
I don't use ATT, nor will I ever. Let those bastards "suck on this"!! Censorship is a very dangerous thing-- indeed. (sadly, it looks to be a world trend more and more.) Time to be a hermit in the wilderness (for me).
So now I have to be aware of their f'n subsidiaries too?
It's probably cat litter or some other obscure divestment.
verizon went after a lefty group, right? so what's to stop them and AT&T from terminating the first amendment by decree. booschaineyCorp will never use the justice department to enforce citizens' rights.
It is so nice not to be a customer of either of those inaugust organizations and therefore to be able to call them humming hives of douchebags. This opinion is based solely on the above information regarding their terms of service but it is really all I need to know about them.
Livin' in a AmeriKa............
Every ISP, telephone company, cable company and even DSL in the nation uses AT$T WorldNet-SBC Global at some point or another for every form of communication you can think of. In this country, you might as well say they ARE the internet. What better way to monitor, control and restrict the flow of information. In a few more years the people of our country will be so blind and gagged it won't be remembered how it got there. The Constitution and the rights it guarantees will, using the words of Alberto Gonzales, truly be just a 'quaint' little document. With the REAL ID law going into effect next year, traveling within our own borders will be restricted also. They compliment each other quite well, don't you think? Ladies and Gentleman, the U.S.A is being turned into the 'new and improved' Soviet Union. That is the kind of country our children will be growing up in. But it's all for own good.......right?
This is what our corporate overlords deign as important for now and wish us to consume
http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/Music/10/01/spears.federline/index.html
All discussion concerning anything else is prohibited.
END TRANSMISSION
BTW, once the internets go down its time to bring back short-wave radio as a means of dissent.
Welcome to the New World Order: Of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the corporations.... Hopefully it won't take a "great Civil War" to free us.
Great quote from Hon. William O. Douglas.
The problem is that the Constitution and the Bill of Rights is protection from government actions, not private.
Since the corporations are being handed the keys to the kingdom there is no overt set of protections.
Perhaps this is why the Rethuglicans want to outsource everything: to put it outside the Constitution.
...
Weaseldog @ 22:
Until you're in a car accident on the freeway, which was what convinced me to get a cell phone.
Dimples @ 35:
I'm new here.
What topics are prohibited from discussion on this site? And why?
Site Monitor: We ask that you keep your comments on topic and civil towards others. Hate speech and advocating violence are not allowed. We do not allow the discussion of 9/11 alternative theories, because it tends to invade all threads, take them off topic and cause huge flame wars.
Wasn't there a time not so long ago when the customer was King?
What ever happened to that sovereignty? Now the company believes it has the sovereign right to dictate to you rather than the other way round.
Imagine if they didn't like your zip code or your choice in furniture.
The Republican wave that started with Reagan is continuing and corporatism is the new religion. And the little guy is the water boy.
Lessee, the only thing that comes to mind is: Go Fuck yourself, AT&T...just to borrow a little eloquence from Dick Cheney.
Thankfully Gonzales’ is Gonezo.
He urged the Federal Communications Commission to oppose Net Neutrality.
If the american people start seeing censorship or the suspending of service from any company..
word will travel all across the country.
...any company involved. Will be the looser.
Since the Bush Admin and Justice Department
started the Hit Job Against an Open Internet.
heres a list So far...
http://www.savetheinternet.com/blog/
NATIONALIZE AT&T AND ALL THE OTHER "COMMUNICATIONS COMPANIES.
THEY ARE UN-AMERICAN, MONOPOLY-STALINIST LOVING COMMIES!
!
First, I suspect that no one could do as much damage to AT&T, et al., as they've just done to themselves with this unAmerican dictate;
Second, who are "its parents, affiliates and subsidiaries"? I'm guessing the list is really long, even if they don't include the Whitewash House on it.
Hey AT&T, Go fuck yourself. If you can't stand the heat, don't offer the service, you greedy dribbling old bastards. Fuck OFF. I hope sites using you for their bandwidth LEAVE IN DROVES.
I discontinued your service as soon as I was able. And if I had to, I'd use tin cans on a string before I'd use your service again.
Yoohoo @ 58:
Uh-I think you'll find that AT&T as is far away from Stalinist-Loving Commies as a company can be. Nationalising companies is much closer to the Commie philosophy than the AT&T monopoly model is...
Udon Nomee @ 26:
LMAO!
cc @ 53:
Then get a pre-paid phone. They're great for the just-in-case situations. Plus most plans won't burn a whole in your wallet. Now back to AT&T...
I'm so glad that I have nothing to do with the Bush-loving, information-sharing, boot-licking morons at AT&T. I don't have their crappy cell service or their crappy internet (thanks Cable)
... which is why sites like this one need ssl, so that without cooperation of the site, the ISP can't analyze what is being blogged with a packet sniffer. Everything now needs to be encrypted.
Thanks. I was just considering getting a Direct TV Package from AT&T. That's no longer under cosideration. As far as our AT&T cell phones go, we'll pick out a new service in the next day or two.
This is going to hit people where they live.
Don't get me wrong... I think the TOS is wrong headed and sends a very unfriendly message to the consumer, but how many people has AT&T terminated using their fancy new rule in their ever changing game of "Calvin Ball"? I'm an AT&T customer on three counts: Home, DSL, & Cellular, and generally I have no complaints. Even if I did, somehow I doubt that posting a rant to my blog is going to create enough of a stir that AT&T would even bother to carry out their threat.
Of course if you want to play musical chairs with you communications, go right ahead. I'm going to sit tight for a while and see if they actually do anything with their posturing before I decide to worry and moan.
Free speech has officially been banned.
If the worthless Democrats in Congress want to do something to show they still believe in the Constitution, they will put an end to this ASAP.
Where are all the idiotic Libertarians? They ought to be tickled pink about this. After all, this is just the free market at work, doing what the free market does when left unchecked by government.
Smack_dab @ 69:
Surely their God, Ron Paul, has a solution...
I'm all for a class action lawsuit. Can somebody from any civil liberties group take on this.
So this means we can't say mean things about the iphone?
I welcome our corporate overlords.
@ 69
"Where are all the idiotic Libertarians? They ought to be tickled pink about this. After all, this is just the free market at work, doing what the free market does when left unchecked by government."
But don't you see, another company will come along that will allow you to talk smack about them, and you can choose them. Nevermind that this puts the consumer into the position where they have to make choices about which company is least egregious on different levels - who cares!. So, if company A doesn't use slave labor but is environmentally safe, and company B pours dioxin into the local lake but pays fair wages, you can decide which you care about more.
That's the beauty of having a completely unfettered market! Yay!
cancelling my a t and t tommorow siegh hell
One more reason why i hate AT&T!
Hi guys,
No time to read the comments right now so pardon me if I'm duplicating stuff.
I just signed back on with ATT for my business landline. 3 nightmare experiences in as many months, including false billings, slamming, you name it. I will cancel my account asap with this news.
Second, Skype is looking more and more attractive. For about $60 PER YEAR, I have a local line that is always good at my house, and with the right phone, I can take the service anywhere there is Wi-fi.
Look into it. The telecom industry is very vulnerable right now and we as a people can cripple it with a little simultaneous cooperation.
“Where are all the idiotic Libertarians? They ought to be tickled pink about this. After all, this is just the free market at work, doing what the free market does when left unchecked by government.”
I think both the cable and telco industries were heavily regulated, and protected from competition - hardly a free market. With the move by the government to give to the telco's carte blanche the "last mile" of copper built during the monopoly era, high hurdles to any new competition have been erected. So, we're stuck with this cable/telco duopoly where the goal now is to replace the current net neutrality with something resembling the broadcast industry so that corporate interests have an increasing control over mass communications. And in the meantime, many internet subscribers are stuck with the requirement of an unwanted purchase (television, telephone) in order to not get price gouged on internet service.
Wow that is pretty arrogant of AT&T...
Too bad people aren't free to just, you know.....choose a different service provider..
Oh wait! We are!!
So what's the issue? Don't use their services.
This type of activity is typical of AT&T and the reason I never use any of their services,, ever. I just cancelled Cingular after they were switched to AT&T. Moved to Vonage after AT&T took over SBC. None of my money will go to them.
The attacks here on AT&T are warranted.
America is devoted to supporting corporations in order to grow the economy in order to manage the national debt.
The problem, I submit, isn't simply AT&T. It's the whole deal.
LeeBurtArrianne @ 43:
LeeBurtArianne, you're genius! I've been cursing AT&T for years - their billing people are sleazeballs (with a few notable exceptions). I keep getting different charges on my bill and spend at least an hour each month tracking them down. I always win, but enough is enough. I'm checking out Charter.
Milo
Hopefully ATT will start cutting off people's internet service for speaking ill of ATT. The more people get cut, the louder the roar of disapproval will be. Once more people realize that it's not just people they don't like whose rights are getting trampled, that truly nobody is safe, not even themselves, they won't stand for it.
To put it in a way that Republicans can understand: It's OK if the scary raghead down the block gets his Internet cut off for visiting, say, Arabic language news sites or something - but dammit, if I can't complain about AT&T's lousy service on the messageboards, mark my words, heads will roll. You can't treat me like this, I'm white! My rights are the ones that actually count!
I'm tired of this corporatism. These companies use the bill of rights as toilet paper
The Libertarian Party and its dogmatic pro-business followers are going to love this. After all, according to them, only government can censor, not private industry.
The irony of those words is no doubt becoming apparent to those that wrote them.
steve @ 74:
Uh yeah, and the moon is made of green cheese.
The Libertarian Party and its dogmatic pro-business followers are going to love this. After all, according to them, only government can censor, not private industry.
I should stop reading these threads backwards.
Seriously tho, ALL DSL IS NOT THE SAME!
If you are in area that has AT&T for your local telco, you are NOT necessarily limited to AT&T for dsl service. Any number of dsl providers may available to you, at a wider variety of speeds, prices, and payment options, than offered by AT&T, and you also will probably have a choice of the AT&T network or the COVAD network for your Internet access.
Particularly if AT&T has told you that you are too far from the telco C.O. (Central Office) to get dsl service, often other providers are willing/able to provide dsl service beyond the limitations of your local telco.
As a rule, dsl from the telcos is not the best deal around. Even large companies like EarthLink tend to suck major ass, bigtime (is that redundant...?). Smaller companies provide faster speeds at lower prices and with better terms and service packages.
And if you are using AOL, you should be ashamed. However, those of us with actual Internet access would like to congratulate you on having won that free Apple iPhone, Apple iPod, and iPod Nano. Again.
AOL is to Internet access, what Sonny and Cher was to Rock and Roll.
As a rule, if one company can get away with this, the rest will follow suit. And BTW, in most areas, you can't choose your service provider.
I have exactly one "choice" for my cable service.
Smack_dab @ 69:
Well... unless they're hypocrites, I would hope they are changing service away from ATT as we speak. I doubt it though, as most "libertarians" I meet these days are actually Mussalini corporatists, and ATT/Cingular has always been big into business contracts for cell service. You know, kinda like those "small government" conservatives that have bloated our government into record debt? It's almost easier to define people by the exact opposite of what they claim to be these days...
Bud @ 50:
You mean, like this? It seems similar in my mind, anyway.
Snowball @ 91:
AT&T doesn't provide cable service. The topic is AT&T internet access, which is dsl.
Udon Nomee @ 93:
Irrelevant, as one telecom goes, so shall the others.
If you don't think this won't set a trend for all internet providers, you a seriously naive.
My Verizon account was cancelled without notice within weeks of getting it for apparent "band width abuse," it took 4 months to get my deposit, and all I had done was watch some 911 type vids at youtube and update my Mac with some software downloads.
They are pushing us for a nexus or revolutionary change in our commerce habits and choices. A million people canceling their cable might wake them up as to who has the money they steal.
Bad keyboard!
This is why we need an independent FCC. We need an FCC that is pressured by its own original charter and by needs of the majority of users and not pressured by the large telcos that the FCC is supposed to be regulating.
Udon Nomee @ 26:
LOL.
They will never ban anyone.
They will instead make purchasing dsl high as Magic Johnson's johnson.
Snowball @ 94:
Nonsense. That's what they said about AOL's aborted pay-for-email scheme. Public outrage nipped it in the bud.
But my post was in direct response to your claim of lack of choice. If you are in an area that can get dsl, you should certainly have a choice of providers for dsl internet access.
It is your cable service that is irrelevent to this discussion.
I guess this make us the USSRA now...this will surely bite them in the ass.
Udon Nomee @ 101:
No, it's your loony toon delusional "free" market drivel that's irrelevant.
The keyword in that sentence is "if."
Bottom line is: corporations can't be trusted with control over the means of communication.
Crooks_and_Liars_Blocked_Me @ 2:
Ditto for me,but I`m not canceling.If they cancel me I think I would have a pretty good lawsuit because I haven`t heard squat from them about new user terms.
Fuck AT&T. I'm canceling my cell phone with them-
When I found out that ATT gave information to the Govt, I cancelled all dealings with ATT. They call me, I tell them I don't care how much they can save me, I don't do business for ATT. They ask why, I tell them.
DON'T DO BUSINESS WITH AT&T.
IT'S SIMPLE FOLKS.
What's to prevent internet providers from blocking access to sites like C&L and others that support net neutrality other than regulation of the industry through the instrument of democratic government? Nothing. Consumers can migrate from one to the other until there are no options left and will have to settle for what internet providers are willing to offer. Corporations will simply agree amongst themselves to divide up the market, charge whatever fees they wish and censor at will.
Snowball @ 103:
You are arguing with the wrong person.
Who said anything about "free market"!?! Don't get mad at me, just because you can't discuss a topic without injecting your own irrelevant personal issues into it.
Pointing out that there are better dsl services than AT&T is "loony toon" and "delusional", huh... Well, I will concede that the "loony toon" and "delusional" would definitely be your forte`, not mine.
I will also respectfully suggest that corporations can't be "trusted" with much of anything, not just communications. Hence the existence of the Federal Communications Commission (NOTE: I point out it's existence, not it's more recent actions). It is precisely that Internet service is considered neither a public utility, nor a federally regulated means of communication that we find this sort of thing happening.
Geez. Get a grip, will ya?
AT&T--your world delivered. To the fascists in power.
If I were a major stock holder of a business that used AT&T, I would demand changing to a different carrier. Remember INSLAW? When the Reagan thieves stole that wonderful software and sold it all over.
Hey big business, tell me you'll be surprised when Gonzales' brother in law is selling your latest widgit as his own. You really want to run your trade secrets through the most blatant band of thieves to ever hold office in US history? Then keep using AT&T and Verizon.
Even the small ISP I use are rats. ANd the big ones are a thousandfold worse.
Udon Nomee @ 110:
I'm not sure what "personal" issues I've interjected into the discussion. That aside, the point I'm making is that perhaps for now there are better DSL providers, but how long do you think it will be before they follow suit? AT&T customers are merely the canaries in the coal mine. If they can do this, it won't be long until the rest do.
And sorry if I thought you were a Libertarian.
AT&T...goose stepping all over your free speech rights!
Crooks_and_Liars_Blocked_Me @ 2:
Ok...hahahaha...I have to....On a post about AT&T and internet censorship, this gem comes up almost immediately...I know, I know, it's your blog and all that, but ya gotta see the irony!!! It's friggin' hilarious!!
I actually wrote about this issue (with regard to Verizon's terms rather than AT&T's) last year:
http://ironcity.blogspot.com/2006/07/since-ill-apparently-be-banned-from.html
Dr. Matt @ 7:
To begin with AT&T Wireless was bought up by Cingular and now AT&T has bought it back. Do ya think the corp execs made a stock killing on this or what?
Fuck all of these coporate cocksuckers!
CensoredFan @ 115:
No irony there, that's what happens when the means of communication are privately owned and operated. C&L is merely illustrating on a limited scale what could happen to the whole system.
I haven't done business w/AT&T in many years. I used to have Cingular Wireless until this goat rodeo with AT&T began and now I have Quest Wireless. Quest, by the way, is the only major wireless carrier to tell the Bushies to fuck off when they wanted to browse through customers cell phone records and listen in on calls. Honestly, my cell phone coverage was better with Cingular, but I don't care. I'd rather do without a cell phone than give my money to AT&T.
Oops! I meant Qwest, not Quest.
Snowball @ 118:
Oh I know what you are saying, but it is ironic that a blog that is privately owned, censors and monitors ( which most have to and I agree with btw ) is posting about an internet provider that is going to do the same thing. AT&T is a crappy corporation for sure, but they have every right to cancel a customer for dissing them. How long would anyone work for a company if you complained about them, before you were fired?
If AT&T doesn't have a position supporting free speech over their network, then I guess I am in favor of restricting AT&T's right to do business in this country. I am thinking we need to go to a public non-profit model if the internet. The internet IS the market. Private corporations should not be allowed to interfere.
Just one more reason to stay the hell away from America's Worst Phone Service.
Snowball @ 112:
Snowball @ 113:
Apology accepted. I am no libertarian, by any means. Far from it.
With regard to AT&T TOS (Terms OF Service) policy, it takes more than just declaring a policy for other providers to start falling like dominoes. They are all in the business of making money. And AT&T is a compettitor, after all.
It makes sense for AT&T to implement this policy (and as quietly as possible) in an effort to limit public condemnation for their lobbying activities seeking protection from the possible legal consequences resulting from complicity in illegal government wiretapping and data mining activities. But other service providers face no such consequences, so the benefit, to them, of such a policy is negligible.
IMHO, this is not an effort to censor the Internet. This is an effort by a huge corporate interest to limit the damage of public opinion to their bottom line, because they know the power of the internet, and they know that when there is a new Administration in the WH, they cannot count on the protection they enjoy today.
Here are some alternatives I know of for phones services.
http://www.workingassetswireless.com/dfawireless/index.cfm?event=ourMission
http://www.skype.com/
Anyone care to recommend either or add other recommendations for alternatives?
CensoredFan @ 121:
BTW, again, it's apples and oranges. C&L does not claim to offer a "a means of communication". They offer a information on current events, and a forum for their discussion. They do not (to my knowledge) have a policy of denying people the opportunity to participate in the discussion if they criticize or disparage the C&L organization in their posts.
Sure you can claim that expecting people to stay on topic, maintain a certain level of civility, and refrain from using the website for self-promotion is a form of censorship, but it isn't.
I wish Americans had the strength to ban together and bankrupt these companies. We have the power to cut off their funds when they do sh!t like this.
Don't all corporations have that same interest? The bottom line is not just about selling services, it's also about perpetuating crony capitalism by controlling access to certain information to the public. What's to prevent the others from following suit once an example is set. Also, you are assuming that corporations do not collude with their competitors to control the market. They do it all the time and get away with it. There was a case a few years ago where a disgruntled employee recorded just such a meeting where several companies got together to artificially set prices and divide up the market between themselves. Who got punished? The employee. The F.B.I. then declined to use or pursue the information gathered.
I would just like to say, for the record That AT&T LICKS THE SWEAT OFF THE PIG MANS BALLS ! cancel me if you wish.
Chris from Ohio @ 127:
Except those same Americans are also, to varying degrees, stockholders of these companies. I don't think it's necessary to bankrupt them, but I do think that it is time for not only political activism, but corporate activism as well.
If you own stock, it's time to read, fill out, and mail in those "proxy" letters, and attend those stockholder meetings. If you only own a handful of shares, find others and combine your voices to let your views be known.
If you participate in a mutual fund, find out what corporations your fund holds stock in, and speak up.
That's what the major stock holders do.
No, you cannot influence the board of directors directly, perhaps. But your displeasure and lack of confidence can and will influence a stock's trading price, and that will influence them.
If you own stock in AT&T and disagree with this policy, you are morally obligated to do something about it.
"We Have Seen The Enemy And He Is Us." -- Pogo (1971)
I say Fuck at&t, fuck them right in the ear!
Snowball @ 128:
Not at all. "Corporation" is not necessarily synonymous with evil, by definition. There are infinite examples of benevolent corporations acting in the public interest, and not just the non-profits either. After all, the corporation is made up of stockholders. AT&T is not a "person", an autonomous entity beyond all influence. It's made up of your friends and neighbors, your mutual funds, your 401k, and even perhaps you, yourself.
Not unlike unchecked government power, unchecked corporate power is never a good thing. But unchecked government power is brought under control by "political activism", and so too can unchecked corporate power be brought under control by "corporate activism".
How many of us are stockholders but ignore those pesky "vote by proxy" letters, don't bother reading annual reports, and have never been to a stockholders meeting? It's time to change that and take responsibility for where we invest our money, as well as where we spend it. And once invested, continue to participate in the way that it is being used.
Change can be brought about from within and without. The modern corporation is slave to their bottom line AS WELL AS the trading price of their stock, and public opinion can go a long way toward influencing that price.
And people wonder why at&t is marketting like a motherfucker and trying to control the wired, wireless and internet services it's conglomerated back from a totally non-existant SEC, FTC and compliant FCC...
They are getting 'quid pro quo' for raping the constitution.
And their president is a fucking nimrod greedy prick...
Suck that at&t!!!
Hey, but relax...
The market is up. There are more desirable property parcels to be had, cheap...
More 'Pioneers' can afford that Bentley than ever before...
If you make huge contributions to the junta, your kids don't have to spend any time worrying their little coc addicted heads over doing any time in the military...
Life is good, if you're a 'true republican'...
No one said corporations are synonymous with evil, that's a strawman. However, corporations are obligated by law to maximize profits for their shareholders. To do so, if left unregulated, they will do so by hook or by crook. With risk benefit analysis, many even find it more profitable to break existing laws and pay whatever fines or to influence the political system to change laws to suit their purposes than to act as good citizens. There is nothing in the corporate charter to require corporations to act in the public interest. Despite the myth, there is nothing really democratic about markets or corporations although they may create that illusion. The most likely response of a corporation to consumer or share holder demands for responsibility or better service is a PR campaign, not actual change.
The idea of shareholder democracy is similar to the poll tax, it's pay to play. For the most part anyway, shareholders aren't into the game for social responsibility, they do it for the returns on their investment. Few of them could care less about what harm their investments do.
Umm, invest what money? I work for the largest print on demand publishing house in the country as a designer and live paycheck to paycheck. One would think such a large and successful corporation could do better than that. Clearly, you don't experience the same economic reality that most of the rest of us do.
So when will it be appropriate to ask Al Gore, and the rest of the Apple board, to drop AT&T? Al Gore must come to account. Our heros must be held to a higher standard.
Well, in addition to not buying ANYTHING from AT&T, it's a good idea to ask your favoirte events to kindly drop AT&T's corporate sponsorship PRONTO.
I'm looking at you, Austin City Limits Music Festival.
I'm looking at you, Lollapalooza and Vegoose.
I'm looking at you, San Antonio Spurs.
Basically, everyone you find here: http://www.attblueroom.com
And those of you who can, make it policy that no act on your label(s) perform at any function underwritten by AT&T or any other company that doesn't abide by a higher standard of corporate behavior. Or just write to the management of the bands you like, and the bandmembers, and let them know you won't patronize anyone sponsored in part by AT&T.
Or just say something now and then go back to your locked-like-Fort-Knox iPhone. AND keep records of all your on-line activity, so you can sue those bastards when they cut off your service.
Oh, yea, and do what I can't find the time to do: Get more involved in your mutual funds. Make sure they know what concerns you wish them to bring up at shareholder meetings.
If they won't, switch your money into accounts with Mutual Funds that Socially Responsible Investments. http://www.socialfunds.com/
Dear Nicole:
I agree with you on AT & T regarding free speech issues and how they can censor people. But hasn't Crooks and Liars itself banned people from using this site and also censor or edit comments that does not go along with C&L's own commenting policies? One cannot have it both ways. I am not trying to be confrontational but C&L also has some commenting policy rules that can be argued, infringe on the same "free speech" criticisms charged at AT&T. I am sure that those who edit comments here can cite "go start your own blog," and that its a "private blog," so therefore "we can do such and such as stated in the commenting policy of C&L. Yes, I wish there was more tolerance and understanding from all parties, even from the editors at C&L, CommonDreams.org. etc., as well as AT&T. It seems that censorship and knee jerk editor/censors are found not only on many blogs these days but at AT&T as well.
Site Monitor: There is also a distinction to be made between a privately-owned blog and a federally regulated utility. We don't "censor" posts lightly. Actually we don't think of it as censoring at all. We monitor these threads to keep them relatively speaking flame and troll free. We're working to create a community here that is respectful and concerned with progressive causes. Think of it as an open house at John Amato's house. Sometimes, someone will show up and offend all the other guests. That's when we have to step in.
[...] Why am I posting this now? I don’t actually have any specific complaints about them at this particular moment (odds are good I will when I get my first bill, though). However, it would appear that they have revised their Terms of Service to ban their customers from criticizing them, on pains of ca.... [...]
Snowball @ 135:
Seriously, you need to brush up on your definitions of "false arguments". A 'straw man' argument involves caricaturing a position to make it easier to attack.
Example: Scientists suppose that living things simply fell together by chance.
I never said YOU felt corporations are evil. That corporations are not evil by definition is MY OWN position. Many corporations ARE evil, but not simply by virtue of of being corporations. The statement is supported by the next sentence, that there are many examples of benevolent corporations.
WRONG! Corporations are legally obligated operate for the purpose of generating a profit, not to maximize profits! The point is to keep people from being hoodwinked into investing in a company whose business model strictly takes investors' money without any intention of returning a profit.
This holds true with privately held companies, so-called "mom-and-pop" operations, as well as private citizens, not just corporations. So I fail to see your point.
Clearly YOU have a tendency for unfounded assumption. The poll tax? WTF!?! Do some reading, check out the history of this country and find out how we come to be in this sorry state of affairs before you start making comparisons to wacky shit like the poll tax, will 'ya? 1886, the Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad decision declared that corporations were persons under the 15th Amendment. Check out how the laws applied to corporations before that, and how they applied after, then tell me about the poll tax...
I as a consumer reserve the write to burn your fascists corporations to the ground.
My Terms of Service ;P
Boycott all things AT&T and Verizon! They are Anti-American fascists, unworthy business partners, betrayers of customer trusts.
My terms of service? Betray my trust (you have), I reserve the right to join alll your other disgruntled customers help you fail as a business.
Mr. XXXX @ 139:
Sorry, Nichole, And, too, am not trying to be confrontational; I don't buy your response. At least not all of it. You have entire topic lines that are verboten to mention or dicsuss, which have commentors using all sorts of codes and euphenisms to discuss them. If a poster comments on the censorship, the typical response is to "start your own blog if you don't like it". But, that is a strange thing to say when you also collect money from those who are subsequently censored. By donating, this site becomes their blog, too. I give money to C&L, but do not like the censorship rules, especially when there are alternatives to censorship (like setting up a free for all comment zone link where any topic is legitimate). I'm just saying, you can't have it both ways.
Read this from Dadelus that was featured on Bill Moyers Journal.
Corporations are soul less organizations run for one true purpose (now in the age of Bush) and that's 'capital return': PROFIT.
Slash workers? More profit. Get your stuff made in China? More profit. Don't test that Chinese junk when it gets back here for sale? More profit. Deny what few workers you have here healthcare and a living wage? More profit. Pay money to your personal congressperson for 'special favors'? More profit.
We live in a land of 'runaway capitalism' which I've said many, many times before... They own your ass and greed owns them.
When I am surfing on the AT&T internet I can not load www.crooksandliars.com. They may be filtering it. Can anyone confirm or debunk that for me? I have tried multiple computers and when I am on Verizon everything is fine but when I move to AT&T it won't load.
I have AT&T too. Not by choice so much as convenience....... But I HATE AT&T> like everyone else. I say it's time for new companies to form. Let's close these sons of *itches up. Let them eat bread and water for a long long while
"We will protect you from things you don't need to know. It's for your own good."
Now, watch this drive...
Christmas is coming. Go shopping. Go shopping now.
Thou art a subject of the divine, created in the image of man, by the masses, for the masses. Let us be thankful we have an occupation to fill. Work hard, increase production, prevent accidents and be happy. Let us be thankful we have commerce. Buy more. Buy more now. Buy. And be happy. Please come back. You have nothing to be afraid of. How shall the new environment be programmed? It all happened so slowly that most men failed to realize that anything had happened at all. Everything will be all right. You are in my hands. I am here to protect you. You have nowhere to go. You have nowhere to go. Economics must not dictate situations which are obviously religious. For more enjoyment and greater efficiency, consumption is being standardized. We are sorry. Blessings of the state, blessings of the masses. - THX-1138. A look ahead...
I've always paid attention to the companies Carlyle invested in or bought or partnered with. I remember reading about little telecommunications company they were involved with called SBC. I immediately began tracking SBC. Within a very short period of time (3 years, give or take), SBC gobbled up all the Bell companies, Cingular and AT&T. THEN, they changed their name to AT&T, so that it would always seem like that nice, safe company you've always known. Once they had a virtual monopoly, they became Big Brother. But, Carlyle didn't just fritter away its time with little ole SBC, they also got involved with various surveillance companies. Now, they've bundled them all together. They read it all, see it all, hear it all.
Anyone here familiar with C.M. Kornbluth's "Marching Morons"? I always thought of it as a quirky, interesting, but extremely unlikely view of where American society was heading. Silly me. 40 million votes for the dude who said "childrens do learn." 40 million votes for the unseen slaughter in Iraq. 40 million votes for a guy who just let Canada's dollar pass ours. And now the guy and his mob are gearing up for another war, against Iran. And the same 40 million marching morons are going to support the s.o.b. because "of course we have to bomb the crap outta them heathen, unwashed sumbitches and, oh my, did you see about Britney and her kids she ain't no fit mother, but hey, are ya ready fer some FOOTBALL, and that guy on Idol seemed a little gay didn't he, get me a Bud Light while yer up and stop gripin' about that lump 'cuz we can't afford the test but thank god we ain't askin' for no gummint handout-healthcare, if Hillary gets in the commies will make us all pee sittin' down!"
Mr. Kornbluth, I salute you sadly.
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