Rep. Charlie Rangel Mixes It Up With Florida Wingnut Over Cuban Embargo
By Logan Murphy Wednesday Oct 03, 2007 12:16pm
Wednesday on The Situation Room Rep. Charlie Rangel (D-NY) got into a heated debate with Florida Republican, Lincoln Diaz-Balart, over whether or not the U.S. should lift its embargo on Cuba. As Diaz-Balart goes hog wild, calling Cuba a communist country who sponsors terror and kills Americans, Rangel reminds him that the U.S. already does billions of dollars in business with hard line communist countries who are responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of Americans. Even The Beard jumps in to defend Rangel's position.
Download | play 
Download | play
Rangel: "...The fact is that we do business with Viet Nam, and they're responsible for at least sixty thousand Americans being killed. We do business with North Korea and China -- tens of thousands of Americans that are being killed. So we do business with Viet Nam, with North Korea, with China and HE'S going to tell ME that we should be fearful of the communist Castro? It's absolutely ridiculous!"
Login or Register to post comments.
They (Repubs in Power) are ALL absolutely ridiculous. I am so sick of coming to these sites and reading about the blatant stupidity that goes on every damned day and no one is doing anything about it!!!!
Which terrorists has Cuba sponsored and which Americans have died at the hands of Cuba? Reich-wingers claim Iran is doing the same thing and they want to nuke Iran. How come reich-wingers are not demanding that Cuba is nuked?
dumbest.embargo.ever
Viva Fidel!
Viva la Revolución!
Que Viva!
Diaz-Balart, typical angry and unhinged reich-winger.
I saw this yesterday as Rangel scored point after well-reasoned point, and smirked while Diaz Balart shouted and waved his finger while bloviating angry talking points again and again...it was a one-sided battle and Charlie clearly emerged the victor.
It's long past time when a few rich and powerful Cubans in Florida can hold our whole policy towards Cuba hostage to their hatred of Castro.
This is more about their desire to get their greedy paws back on the levers of power and riches in Cuba that they lost when Fidel took over then it is about restoring "Democracy" to Cuba!
Google 'Cubana Air Flight 455 1976' and learn about the biggest terror attack in the western hemisphere prior to 911.
Who are Olando Bosch and Luis Posada Carriles. Terrorists sponsored by guess who?
And pardoned by 41 and 43.
Who does terrorism? We do.
It is not surprising! I watch a very interesting documentary on a revolution in Venezuela with Hugo Chavez, and Hugo has been accuse of being a Castro sympathizer for protecting the Bolivar constitution for the country, the people that got kick out for staging a American backed coup in Venezuela are now living in Miami, Florida. Even though Venezuela is a democratic society they did over take the media that was run by a corporate that incited violent action to the people that supported Hugo, mostly the rich elitist. They took back the media to the people. The corporate did go so far to incite polarization of the country to fake a broadcast that tried to show that the Hugo supporter was shooting into the opposition crowd with live ammo. when in fact they were shooting back at an unknown sniper in the building windows. Hugo supporter obtain the original footage of the shooting to reveal no crowds below were being shot at by the Hugo supporter.
This undeclare war against Cuba has all to do with Venezuela's people fought back to keep their country out the hands of Corporate control. I now understand why Hugo sympathize with the American people and why he gave oil to help the poor without heat for the winter.
I somehow have the feeling that the US has more people incarcerated on the grounds of their beliefs than Cuba does...
What would our nation do for wingnut entertainment if it wasn't for my state of Fla? :roll:
Diaz-Balart doesn't like that we do business with China???????
Where the hell does he think we're getting our war money from???
not only am unaware of when and how Cuba has sponsored terror and killed any americans via violence, i must also be stoopid as to how "We do business with North Korea and China — tens of thousands of Americans that are being killed"
how is this true? where are "tens of thousands of Americans' being killed anywhere in the world by communist China or North Korea terrorism?
Do politicians just make shit up where ever they go?
The Vietnam and the korean wars, were just that, wars, which are Dear Leader is fast to remind us because of that the Geneva conventions applied to them.
By any standard, we have killed far more innocents foreigners by "terror" than Cuba has by blowing up Afghanistan wedding parties and killing dozens if not hundreds of innocents to get one guy.
we are ones who grab foreign citizens and ship them off to be tortured by syrians, authorize secret prisons, concentration camps, dismiss habeas corpus.
While the GOP hardliners continue to push this trade embargo with Cuba, little do they realize that Cuba has been doing business with the Spanish, French and Mexicans since the Soviet Union collapsed... and that business is starting to boom. The GOPers have this hazy, nostalgic vision that all the cars down there are 1950's Chevy's and Fords, but the fact is those cars died out long ago and have been replaced by brand spanking new Peugeots and Fiats.
It'll just be like how we snubbed Vietnam and the Japanese and Thai swooped in during the 80's... and by the time we restarted trade talks with Vietnam, that country was already saturated by Thai and Japanese businesses.
paranoia, check this out. The Assasination of Hugo Chavez.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhs0u1IIc3o
I love Charley Rangel.....he's awsome.
I watched this last night, it was pretty funny. The best part was the arrogance of the Republican. Proclaiming that he and 6 other Republicans get final say in the matter because they all agree. It doesn't matter what the people want. What matters is what the super smart republican politicians want. After all the general public is full of a bunch of poopie brains and GOP politicians are Einsteins.
Republicans are such pissy-pants little chickens. Virtually everyone is a terrorist to them.
I blame Reagan. If he had strutted around on an aircraft carrier under a Mission Accomplished banner, maybe the GOP would get the message: THE COLD WAR IS OVER!
When the coup was in place in Venezuela, the Hugo opposition party took all the money from the palace and cleaned out the safe. My guess they took it with them to Florida. Florida has been overtaken by greed and money spent really well to take over Florida. People wonder how did Florida became a right wing state so recently in the history of the USA.
Diaz-Balart really knows how to hold a grudge. We should dictate current policies based upon actions over 10 years ago.
ThunderMonkey @ 20:
We do. Remember "He trahed to kill muh Dayud"-GWB about Saddam Hussein.
Joementum @ 18:
Yeah, but the Cold War was really over by the time Reagan got into office. We spent 1980-85 trying to line up regions in the Middle East as our puppet countries, whereas the old Soviet Union was working on the same thing.
It's good to see that our late Cold War policies really paid off down the road.
Naturally there is no mention of the Terrorisim the United States has inflicted on Cuba...
Which was the first country to be labeled a "Terrorist State" via the International Courts??
Anyone??
This Florida Republican, Lincoln Diaz-Balart makes it an understatement to call him a "Wing nut".
There is a positive in this interview.
It was one on one. Dem v Repub.
The interviewer (Wolf) over rode the Repubs filibuster to allow the Dem to speak.
And when the Repub refused to answer the Dems challenge and began his filibuster again on some ranting nonsense. The interviewer ended the repubs filibuster again to redress the question put forth by the Dem.
Are these signs of a journalistic balance we can look forward to ? Excluding FOX, of course.
The cuban American contingency in Miami is the equivalent of the AIPAC for Israel.... These mucks are bought and paid for. The old land owners still have a wet dream to get back their plantations and Casinos and begin raking in the dough.
-chomsky
I think this is known as cutting off your nose to spite your face.
You think Lincoln Diaz-Balart can really look at this situation objectively.
He is Fidel Castro's nephew through marriage with his aunt.
His father and Castro were was once good friends and classmates.
His family never returned to Cuba after Castro took power.
From a NY Times article:
All in the Family, Brothers Wage War on Uncle Fidel
John Wison @ 25:
Diaz-Balart may have said "Constituents" but what's he really saying is "my largest contributors". Rewatch the clip and replace constituents for contributors and it makes perfect sense.
Republicans count on all of us being as damned stupid as those who support them.
Blue Buddha @ 13:
you left out Venezuela and much of free south America. Cuba has so many friends, we are not missed. the miami contingent will die and the corruption they fomented in Cuba may never return, especially since the bitter, nasty, hateful face of USAmerica is so prominently and continuously on display.
We are: Hateful Nation
How many times is he (Lincoln Diaz-Balart ) going to repeat Cuba is 90 miles away?!!! All he was doing was ranting away and repeating his old talking points.
This type of thinking is dangerous and does no good for Americans.
I wonder if his seat is up for re-election?
Balzart spends most of his time screaming, responding with bush-league sarcasm and interrupting Rangel, then complains when Rangel tries to respond to a point by interrupting in turn, when it is clear to me that Rangel tried to break in because clearly Balzart was going to keep yapping for the rest of the segment unless Rangel tried to get back into the conversation. Filibustering fuckhead.
God, I hate talking point, bumper sticker, false patriotism neo-republicans. No really; fuck these cretins.
*Balart.
Whatever.
Kald @ 9:
I wonder if Cuba has as many Cubans in prison as we have prisoners in Guantanamo?
I wonder if the percentage of Cubans in Cuban prisons is as high as the percentage of Americans in American prisons.
I'd stake my NetBank account on the both answers being "NO!"
Robt @ 24:
Well said! The filibuster-as-conversation-hey-don't-you-interrupt-ME-boy tactic is tired and annoying.
Nice also to see a one-on-one conversation.
the Batista Royalists don't care how much Cuba is suffering from the embargo. They just care about gravy training donations to keep their rich lifestyle up
I think Rangel was about to say, and the Congressman new it, which is why he cut him off:
"Do you really want to get into elections in Florida sir?"
The embargo is the best thing that ever happened to Castro.
Rangel talks a good game, but he doesn't seem to have a problem with extending NAFTA to Colombia, where union organizers are being murdered.
It is clear that in this debate that there is no understanding of the word terrorist amongst the decision makers in the US. Terrorism is not when your army invades and is shot at, terrorism is an attack on civilian infrastructure or non combatants in order to obtain political concessions. Diaz-Balart is both an ignoramous for using terrorist in that way, and likely also engaging in obvious public propaganda by bluring the distinction between military confrontation and terrorism.
Mr. Rangel said it... it's absolutely ridiculous!
trade with cuba is the best way to get them to convert to capitalism. It is already have some effects in China what makes the neocons think it wouldn't help Cuba change.
He has a point. Why are we doing business with China, Germany, Russia, Japan, Vietnam, Mexico, Canada and every other nation we've had a military conflict with and Americans died? Goodness, reich wing Republicans never fail to impress me with their stupidity. The fact is Cuba shows us up by living with less oil, grows more organic food, has universal health care and free higher education and doesn't engage in military conflicts. Republicans are just jealous because they do what we can't.
He represents my district and it's embarrassing that the Democratic Party can't find someone to seriously challenge this clown. The last guy that tried was a freakin ex-limousene driver who changed parties as much as he changed jobs. No offense, but can't there be more support to find a real alternative!? I'm sick of Balart and the other looney , Congresswoman Ileana Ros-Lehtinen and their bombastic, old, tired and illogical arguments. I've had the displeasure of having both these loons represent my district due to the Republican goons in Tallahassee and their gerrymandering.
most hispanics despise cubans, and the special preferences they get in regards immigration, etc
and the embargo has never worked, especially since cuban americans send millions back to their families in cuba every year
This country is ri-goddamn-diculous!
Doug @ 44:
When did we have a military conflict with CANADA?
BaScOmBe @ 35:
Absolutely. Because America not only imprisons Americans, it also imprisons Iraqis, Afghanis, Cubans, etc etc.
Le Roi Est Mort @ 4:
Yeah!
Dr. Acula @ 48:
A long time ago. The US lost. Read history.
The obsession with Cuba is ridiculous.
Rangel is right on.
DaveM @ 12:
Rangel's comments are crazy: why wouldn't he asks why Vietnam does any "business" with the USA, the the USA killed over 5 million Vietnamese.
Republicans are so hopelessly out of their depth with foreign policy.
qwert @ 43:
Yeah... that's my worry about Rangel's opening salvo that our farmers want to sell their products to Cuba! That is exactly how we f'up other countries: We insist that they import our 'stuff', pay top dollar for it and ignore the existing indigenous businesses who are starved out of existence.
Capitalism, as we practice it, should not be the reason for normalizing relations w/Cuba.
jr @ 37:
I'm so glad you mentioned Batista!! These radical right Cubans from Miami pretend that prior to Castro the island was a utopia. It wasn't; it was a haven for US criminals/gangsters.
That Lincoln Diaz-Balart dude is one pathetic, dumbass repug.
Charlie Rangel mopped the floor with him.
Unfortunately Balart was too stupid to notice.
Balart still thinks it is 1960.
I can't believe Balart tried to cite the 'invasion' of Grenada and Cuba's participation in the fighting (if you can call it that).
"The Cuban government released documents which showed that it had notified the United States on 22 October that no American or other foreign citizen was in danger and said it was ready "to cooperate in the solution of problems without violence or intervention. It received no reply until after the invasion had begun. On the 23rd the Cubans sent a message to the Grenadian leaders suggesting that the area around the medical school be demilitarized to avoid providing the United States with an excuse for invasion: "the pretext of evacuating its citizens''."
courtesty of third world traveller
Miami (properly pronounced my-AMM-uh) is the only American city where you need a cogent Foreign Policy to run for Mayor and City-wide office.
Cuban dingbats literally blow each other up with car bombs over disagreements as idiotic as: should Fidel be hung by the neck or drawn and quartered?
God help you if you EVER disagree with one of them. To do so is to invite denunciation as a "COMMUNISTA!!!!" and a, "MARICON!!!!"
Be very, very glad if you speak no Cuban Spanish and thus never hear and comprehend Miami Cuban talk radio.
Every one of them over the age of 35 will tell you, AT LENGTH, that his family owned the Isle of Pines until that Communista Fidel dispossessed them.
They want the Embargo in place because they know that, were it to be lifted, there are a whole bunch of people who will encourage them, IN THE STRONGEST TERMS, to climb back onto their rafts and inner tubes and return to their beautiful island paradise, with or without their Lexuses, cell phones and multi-million dollar, drug money-financed Kendall and Coconut Grove fuck boxes.
I spent part of my youth in pre-Castro Cuba. The vast, overwhelming majority of average Cubans back then lacked a pot to piss into nor had they a winow to throw it out of. At least, when the Russians kept Fidel for a pet, there were doctors and schools for everyone.
Under Batista, the average Cuban had the Freedom to be illiterate, have intestinal parasites and die young.
And, my family's interests go Waaaaaay back before Batista, to the Machado government.
Is Castro a crooked, Commie schmuck?
Hell, yes! A piece of shit on the level of Marcos (remember him?) and not quite as crooked as Chiang Kai-Shek.
But he Comes By It Honestly...
"Bullshit! I know Nixon personally. He lugs a trainload of shit behind him that could fertilize the Sinai. Why, I wouldn't buy an apple from the son of a bitch and I consider him a good, close, personal friend." - General Taylor
Dr. Matt @ 2:
---------------------
damn! don't give these insane clowns any ideas!
actually i think that in the past some of them did want to nuke cuba but the rich cubans who fled here, whose grandson's are R congressmen and senators, wanted their plantations, casinos and grand estates left in good condition for when they took the country back for -- well for themselves.
Fuck the embargo! I want my cigars!
Seriously, this policy is outdated and obviously hasn't created the results that Kennedy hoped for.
These FL Cubans use this issue as a way to stay in power. It's time to move on from the cold war!
Scott in Chicago @ 61:
------------------
gosh scott, you live in chicago. go over to canada, buy some seegars and smoke away.
Patriot Actor @ 7:
-------------------
right wing cubans were part of the watergate bunch
Jenny'O @ 62:
You must be thinking of Detroit. Chicago isn't anywhere near Canada. Wisconsin is between us!
A Cuban friend of mine once told me,"fuck the Cuban community". The reason Castro is still in power after all those years is because. all the opponents to his regime have fled the country, and are planning the liberation of the island for more than 40 years, from across the pond while getting rich and fat...( and also because of the ridiculous and dysfunctionall policies of the US)
that speaks for itself
lots closer than s. cal. and kentucky.
Last I checked Quantanimo is in Cuba... We are imprisoning a whole lotta alleged "terrorsists" there.
and Cuban families in the U.S. can't help relatives there because CUBA is a terrorist regime?
What gives?
reyvn @ 51:
Ah yes, the "forgotten war" -- the War of 1812.
Iron Gator @ 59:
I just had to quote you because I think you captured Miami perfectly.
cetylovx @ 69:
Mee-ah-mee is a frickin' banana republic.
I think Wolf should do a better job moderating these discussions.
I wish Rangel had taken O’Reilly to Harlem. Oh what a conversation they would have had.
Loonie @ 17:
Exactly.
The GOP, the party of bedwetters. Instead of a blue elephant for the new RNC logo (yes, thats another story), it should be yellow.
"You can be emotional, but don't be rude." There's so many situtations I can use that in.
I don't usually say this but, pwned Republican Xenophobe!
What typical American arrogance- defining the kind of government Cuba must have-It seems to me that decision should be made by the Cuban people- not Washington..
This reminds me of Brownback's recent speech desribing the kind of government iraq shoudl have (never taking into account Iraqis might want a hand in deciding the form of their own government)
The arrogance of america never ceases to amaze me...
And I say this as an American..
this is undoubtedly the most ignorant foreign policy the U. S. has today--and that's saying a lot. "Keeping billions from this communist, terrorist country with a terrible human rights record." But Red China's good, Saudi Arabia's good. What a crock!
Logic really pisses the Neocon shit heels off.
Premise:
A. We do not trade with Cuba because they are (insert facile label, i.e. Communists)
B. We do trade with countries that are (insert label from A.) just not Cuba.
Conclusion: Our reasons for not trading with Cuba have nothing to do with A. so there must be some other reason.
Don't know if anyone brought this up yet but Charlie Rangel is a SELLOUT. David Sirota has written extenisvely about a new SECRET Trade Deal with countries including Peru that is strongly backed by Rangel and other leading Democrats. Just what we need, another NAFTA!
From the article...
"...the New York Times reports that Pelosi, Rangel and Baucus appear to be cutting a “deal” with Bush that the majority of Democrats do not support “Despite the endorsement of Rangel and Pelosi,” the Times wrote, “many Democrats say that half or more of the Democrats in Congress may vote against the deal.” The Times also notes that the deal “paves the way” for Congress to grant Bush’s request to reauthorize fast track authority—the authority that allows presidents to eliminate basic labor, human rights and environmental protections from trade pacts."
www.tompaine.com/articles/2007/05/11/bush_and_dems_collaborate_on_trade_... -
How dare Charlie bring logic and superior arguments to a debate?!? What does he think this is, a liberal democracy?!? Where does he think he is, America?!? The nerve of some people.
PayAttention @ 80:
Well, sorry to say it, but if Rangel is down with that, he is a sellout. To hell with him. I would hope that he is better than to side with the corporatists who are destroying this country.
Just another absolute, laughable idiot and very, very, ignorant Right wing-nutO that has to GO.
Dumya must give excellent head to bait these idiots in as well as he does. This idiot is obviously brain damaged.
PayAttention @ 80:
You need to get up to speed to what is happening in Latin America. Countries like Peru badly need these free trade agreements. If this fails, Peru will likely fall under the influence of Chavez - hardly the model of democracy we want to promote. We should prioritize trade with Latin America over places like Vietnam and China. I find that people who are virulently free trade have done little traveling outside the U.S. Yes, labor standards, environmental standards, etc. are worse, but not as bad as you think. Have you read about the conditions of the U.S. work enviroment at the turn of the century? Rangel is not a "Sellout", he's a pragmatist who thankfully understands the complexities of the world better than you do.
I especially enjoy when Rangel amuses us all with a good right-wing nutO ass whopping with a clueless idiot.
Would these be Cuban American descendants of Cubans that enslaved most of the people of Cuba? You know, the ones that want to re-claim their vast plantations and restore Cuban slave labor. Is that who Lincoln Diaz-Balart is referring to? Yeah, restore Republican type democracy in Cuba. How sad it would be for the Cubans. No more free health care and it will be back to the plantations, especially for the dark skinned Cubans.
I brought it up before, but unless Fidel is willing to allow sweatshops on the island, the embargo will continue.
Republican foreign policy: Don't agree with someone? They're TERRORISTS!!!
At least Cuba didn't invade another sovereign nation under false pretenses and then proceed to occupy this sovereign nation just so it could steal natural resources.
That's one for Bush and zero for Castro.
paranoia @ 19:
Not to worry. As global warming continues, Florida will be mostly under water.
cetylovx @ 45:
Take this as an opportunity for you to run for office. Don't be afraid. You can do it.
Since when did Cuba become a country of terrorists? Must be since the U.S. government turned Gitmo into a torture sanctioned political prison camp.
Cuba is one of the most beautiful Carribean countries that I visit and the Cuban people are certainly the most friendly.
They certainly struggle because of American Imperialistic policy, but you know something,
one of the nicest things about vacationing in Cuba is ....NO AMERICANS!
Uphold the embargo.
When the CIA backed death squads, does that make America a state sponsored terrorist nation? I'm more concerned about the Supreme Court installed regime that is spending half trillion dollars of our tax dollars. Who are we to lecture when we have an unelected despot who invaded a country based on lies?
As far as this wingnut, what war did he serve in? I know Rangel is a fighting Dem Korean War veteran, but my wager is this red state conservative bedwetter never picked up a rifle a day in his life unless it was to shoot a defense animal that couldn't shoot back.
unfrozencaveman @ 85:
Yeah, like Mexico is benefitting from NAFTA. We aren't doing any favors to these countries by getting their population to become virtual slaves for multinationals. It kills business from intrinsically developing in these countries that could provide better jobs/wages. All these deals need to be SHREDDED. We don't need Charlie Rangel trampling on the basic tenet of what Democrats are supposed to stand for - decent jobs, decent pay for a middle class. Also, Chavez is not my enemy. Nor is he America's enemy. Instead of trying to kill him perhaps we should try to respect him and work with him. In his Democracy they actually count all the votes, so I kinda like that! You need to read a little more broadly so you don't sound so foolish in your posts. Chavez removed $30 billion from our treasury and decided to use his oil revenues to help his poor people. Can you f*ing blame him? Lastly, you say that labor standards are not as bad as I think?? Have you read about Colombia's role in the "Secret" trade deal Rangel is negotiating? From David Sirota...
"The proposed Colombia deal is by far the most controversial of the four pacts in The Secret Trade Deal of 2007. That's because Colombia's government works with paramilitary gangs to execute union organizers. Facing growing Democratic opposition to the deal, the Colombian government has hired former Clinton administration officials as high-paid lobbyists to press for passage of the pact."
http://www.workingassetsblog.com/2007/09/secret_trade_deal_new_report_s....
Excuse me!? Who's the terrorist?
US troops in El Salvador were training and supporting right wing death squads. The mass graves and disappearances of entire communities of El Salvadoran citizens are known documented facts. FLMN is now one of El Salvador's largest political parties and participates in elections. The Sandinistas overthrew a violent and repressive right wing dictatorship and brought democracy to Nicaragua at least two years before they had promised to do so. Now, Daniel Ortega, head of the Sandinista party has returned to the Presidency through democratic elections after a decade of corrupt right wing rule. Orlando Bosch and Luis Posada Carriles, right wing Cuban activists, bombed a Cuban civilian airline killing 73 innocent people as well as having orchestrated a bombing campaign against Cuban hotels which killed an Italian citizen. They are also known to have been involved in arms and drug smuggling, death squads and assassinations. Both these terrorists have been sheltered by the US government and Luis Posada Carriles is currently running around free in Florida, the US refusing to extradite him to Venezuela where he is currently wanted for his role in the airline bombing.
Read up on Luis Posada Carriles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Posada_Carriles
How can we claim to be fighting terrorism when we shelter the most notorious and deadly terrorist in our hemisphere? Rangel should have pointed this out.
So one guy is defending american actions in the 80s in El Salvador and Grenada???
And Rangel is saying that the Viet-Namese are resposible for killing 60,000 americans???
Last time I checked, America was the aggressor, not the defender in these conflicts......
Dr. Acula @ 48:
The war of 1812
Adding to my comment... I wonder... if the Viet-Namese would invade America and americans would defend their country, let's say resulting in 60,000 viet-namese deaths..... I wonder if the Viet-Namese would blame america for killing 60,000 viet-namese as they invaded.... don't think so...
So this priviledged ass-hat and his 6 buddies think they are representive of Cubans?
:lol:
Iron Gator @ 59:
Thank you, General! This is the best post I've read in a long time! Great trip back down Memory Lane of some history that happened during my life time. I live in Florida, North Florida-- and I feel as though South Florida is actually North Havana. If there were any way possible, I'd sever that part of Florida completely, and push it, and everything and everybody on it, out into the water, in the general direction of Cuba. I stopped going to Miami when it became Little Havana!
What about the fact that the largest supplier of terrorism, Saudi Arabia owns
a large portion of the American economy and we do billions if not trillions in
business with them...but that's okay?
Dana @ 103:
Sure it's okay, as long as you can find a poor scapegoat to blame for the world's problems. And if you are the only country in the world ready to cut off your nose to spite your face, so much the better.
/sarcasm
Just remember: Repugs don't have to make sense. They are immune to reality.
When Lincoln Diaz-Balart says to do business with Cuba the political prisoners need to be freed on the island, I wonder if he meant the prisoners in Guantanamo?
Another day, another right-wing blowhard. They are everywhere.
Does not the U.S. lease Guantanamo from Cuba? Business as usual.
Peace @ 96:
First of all, Mexico is not benefiting from NAFTA what it could becacuse of China. We turned our backs in Mexico in favor of investement in non-democratic China. Second of all, I live in Latin America, and I travel all over the region frequently. While I don't claim to be an expert, I am very well informed on whats going on down here. You call me foolish - what's your expertise then? You obviously have not read about what Chavez is doing. He is not promoting democracy, he is destroying it. He has created a rubber stamp congress, hold all the controls for elections, and he will be President (aka Dictator) for life. Thats democracy? He uses politics in the most cynical way. You obviously fell for the subsidize heating oil ploy. You are a fool if you think that was nothing but a crude (no pun intended) political ploy.
Have you ever been to Colombia? Do you understand how complicated the situation there is, or how far they've come in the past 5-10 years to lower the violence level? They need that free trade agreement to keep the trend going. The model we want to promote in Latin America is Chile - and yes they have a Free Trade Agreement with the U.S. Ask both sides how that one turned out (its a success).
I am going to Cuba in November for a holiday. I can't wait! Put that in your can of malt liquor and drink it. You dipshite republican.
I really hope that when smarter heads prevail and the embargo is eventually lifted. That Cuba, in particular Havana, in particular particular Old Havana, won't lose it's old world charm and become Americanized like so many other places in Mexico and the Caribbean. I swear I'll lose it the first time I see a KFC in Plaza Vieja.
boy, those Florida Republicans are dumb. Can't wait for my second trip to Cuba! (i'm American by the way)
Paranoia,
The documentry that you are refering to is "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised". It is indeed a great movie with perhaps the most inside view of that period and the challeges Chavez faces in his country. It was filmed by a BBC team that got trapped in the presidential palace while there. It is something anybody who thinks they know about venezuela needs to see. It will make several of his policies that confuse Americans sensible. it will also explain the bush administration's dogged hatred for him.
the link for info is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Revolution_Will_Not_Be_Televised_(documentary)
Chavez has created a rubber stamp congress...hm...I could have sworn that his party has support from about 66% of the country and the last election was BOYCOTTED because they knew they were going down in defeat. I'm so sick and tired of the Orwellian thinking of people like yourself. Let's see, you live in Latin America, travel often, write perfect English, have access to the internet and have enough time to come on here and argue with us. I think I have an idea as to why you don't like Chavez and, as usual, little of it has to do with democracy. Explain how Venezuela, who has the most participatory democracy in Latin America, has a democratic deficit. Articulate this for us and leave out the bumper sticker logic. I find the coverage of the recent RCTV incident by people like yourself to be very revealing. RCTV takes money from a foreign country that is militarily and economically attacking its own country (through the NED, CIA, USAID and has organization like Reporters Without Borders receiving cash from the same groups helping with the propaganda), openly support a coup that dissolves all branches of government (the constitution that was voted on by the Venezuelan citizens with backing from the vast majority of the country) and replaces it with a military dictatorship, the coup leaders thank (on camera, watch "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" on youtube) RCTV for helping them set up the dictatorship and what does Chavez do once he is restored back into power by the Venezuelan public? Does he do as we would do if China had done to us what we did to them (treason charges, jail, possibly execution, could you imagine what the country here would do if CNN or FOX had done this with Chinese or Cuban money, my god)? No, he waits five years so their license runs out, their punishment in the end is that their station now has to go to cable. Listen to people like yourself though, he's a dictator! Le Monde, based in a country with no term limits, calls him a dictator for asking the public to vote on whether or not they want to end term limits.
Regarding "free trade", the Mexican government recently did a study about the effects of economic liberalization in Mexico since the mid 80's. They found that (in addition to over a million Mexican farmers losing their means of living thanks to state subsidized US agriculture, wealth disparity going through the roof and immigration increasing 8 fold since NAFTA's passage) the annual benefit from "free trade" has been about 12 billion annually (again, not at all evenly spread) while the cost to the environment has been about 36 billion annually. Soil erosion went up 89%, solid waste by 108%, water pollution by 28% and air pollution by 97%.
Then there's the anti-democratic nature to deals like NAFTA and CAFTA. If a corporation feels that a government gets in the way of them making a profit (like the Canadian corporation with MTBE in California) they can sue the host government for damages even if its proven that the product or service is of great harm to the public. When they do, the case goes to a SECRET three person tribunal and the findings aren't usually given to the public even when the case results in their tax dollars going to private corporations. CAFTA stipulated that Central American citizens couldn't buy generic drugs for a few years and HAD to buy off of multi nationals. You could go on forever. When does an idea become so obviously bad that something better just takes its place and people like yourself can just be honest with yourselves and everyone else?
Also, please do not bring up Colombia. That is not an argument you want to have. The originin of the violence, how the paramilitaries were set up, who they targeted and (really) why, why and how the FARC was created, the connection between the government itself and the drug runners as well as the death squads, it isn't pretty and is a losing argument for yourself.
Cardinal_Fang @ 109:
Old Havana is a tourist trap- you'll understand what i mean when you see it. Though true there ar no fast food joints there. Be really careful your your passport doesn't get stamped. Other than that talk to as many locals as you can.
Yo -
Yes I am an American living in Latin America. Yes, high speed internet comes here. Your comments show you have no first hand experience here. The FTA agreements hold popular support in Peru, Colombia and Panama. Give these countries a chance, listen to what they want and stop telling those countries what they are supposed to from your ignorant perspective.
Just becuase I don't like Chavez doesn't mean I'm some sort of corporatist. Yes in Venezuela he is popular, but that is based on his use of handouts instead of really improving productivity in the country and the standard of living. Ask people outside of Venezuela how they feel about Chavez and the ambivalence rises. His popularity is based on Bush's stupidity more than anything else. Chavez is now ruling by decree - how is that democracy? Lifetime leadership appointments and democracry don't mix.
The trade deals are far from perfect, I know that. Remember that the U.S. heavily subsidizes agriculture - a huge disadvantage to lesser developed countries. Stop judging these countries by our present standards. They have to make textiles before they can move on to electronics, microchips etc. Development cannot be done all at once.
The decree you refer to was used numerous times before Chavez took over. I highly doubt most people who are now screaming about it gave a damn then, but then Venezuela sent more people to the School of Americas to be trained than almost every other country in Latin America, so they weren't evil like now. There is one big difference though, which you didn't mention or aren't aware of. As a result of the constitution, created by the Chavez government and passed by the people, if 10% of the public disagrees with ANYTHING he passes while on decree the law is automatically put up for public referendum and must be voted on. That wasn't the case before. So there is a check, the people, not the people in government themselves. I would, and I'd bet most Americans would, love to have that option. This the power that was used and abused during the Chavez recall. That recall wasn’t a possibility until Chavez took over. You also pretend to not realize the leftward shift in the elections across Latin America. Even in the countries where the leftist candidate lost, like Peru, the candidates got 40 plus percent of the vote and the candidates who beat them said little to nothing of the “free market”. The candidates who were relatively moderate won but by not talking like moderates.
I live in Southern California, am involved with groups helping workers organize in Tijuana and have been all over Central America. I'm sorry but to say there is a wide range of support for "free trade" is ridiculous. The issue is much more complex than you'd ever spend the time understanding or thinking critically about. What is "free trade"? It is lowering all impediments to the movement of capital and the decision making of those who own capital. If you have competition as the basis of your economic philosophy, what sense would it make for a Peruvian company to want to compete with an American company when it’s obvious who would win? What the citizens is control over their own resources and the ability to control their lives. In representative democracy those who create laws are the very ones who benefit from the laws they create. In a world where investors have all the power and can chose from hundreds of countries to put their money, doing what's best for workers and the environment is actually a disincentive for investment. Polls in Mexico show, for instance, that support for NAFTA is higher than in the US (which is low) but that people believe that the US has been the real winner in NAFTA. Why would they be in favor of something which results in them losing out to the country they signed with? The options are bad to worse, and bad is better than worse. There hasn't been a free trade deal signed that didn't result in the concentration of wealth, the destruction of small farms and the environment. Who, again, knowing all of this and knowing all the facts, would be in favor of having the resources in your country taken over by foreign capitalist and the domestic elites they pay off, having their local environment ruined and having less rights as a worker? You come say that garbage to the workers I work with in TJ, see the reaction you get. You say that in Chiapas, where there is tons of natural resources and miserable poverty or Oaxaca. I highly doubt you bother talking to many that aren't relatively well off and when you do, how honest and in detail any conversation would be.
You moving on to microchips, etc, is also naïve. There is a finite amount of resources, in minerals and metals more so. All these countries aren’t going to be able to fully industrialize, if they do there won’t be many resources available for future generations. What is likely is small industry in each country with consumption at a relatively sustainable level. The doesn’t jive well with growth capitalism over the long run.
anon @ 111:
Incredible film.
Open your eyes a wee bit?
Login or Register to post comments.