Iraqis give up on surge policy goal
If we give an ineffective policy in Iraq more time, will it eventually produce political reconciliation? Not so much — even Iraqi officials now concede that political progress is impossible, and isn’t going to happen.
Iraqi leaders argue that sectarian animosity is entrenched in the structure of their government. Instead of reconciliation, they now stress alternative and perhaps more attainable goals: streamlining the government bureaucracy, placing experienced technocrats in positions of authority and improving the dismal record of providing basic services.
“I don’t think there is something called reconciliation, and there will be no reconciliation as such,” said Deputy Prime Minister Barham Salih, a Kurd. “To me, it is a very inaccurate term. This is a struggle about power.”
Humam Hamoudi, a prominent Shiite cleric and parliament member, said any future reconciliation would emerge naturally from an efficient, fair government, not through short-term political engineering among Sunnis and Shiites.
So much for Sen. Lindsey Graham's (R-S.C.) predictive skills.
As Kevin concluded, “If reconciliation depends on the emergence of efficient, fair government in Iraq, that’s pretty much all she wrote. It’s time to pack up and go home.”
History will ask....how anyone could have thought following Bush II, on or about anything, was reasonable or smart.
But its all going swimmingly in Iraq.....
Get ready for worldwide riots at US embassies if the Iran attack goes ahead.
Unfortunately, anything short of a Rwanda style killing spree is going to viewed by the wingnuts as a sign of progress. That's what happens when you're allowed to make your own reality.
History not only repeats itself, it leaves lessons about how to avoid the repetition. All one has to do is read. Either no one in this administration read the lessons, or if they did, they accused history of lying
I, for one, would actually welcome the unmitigated and unforgivably arrogant stupidity of the US attacking Iran. Only then would there actually be a movement of the american sheeple against the Bush regime because make no mistake---- The US attacks Iran and Iran will hand america its ass one way or another! Let's not have any illusions about that!
This morning on c-span I watched a rerun of a meeting of some dem reps and William Polk. Mr. Polk is an amazing man with credentials a mile long. He has the answers, regarding how to get out of this mess, if someone with a brain in DC is actually looking for them. No answers are all good, but his are reasonable and make sense. It was so frustrating to hear him with his studies and wisdom and know damned well no one in this administration will pay a bit of attention to him.
Great to see an open thread on Kucinich! I missed it last night, so just let me say Go Dennis!
Saw him speak at the Latino Congresso on Saturday and he was great.
Kucinich/Gravel '08
Lindsay Graham said our troops were "kicking ass". Yeah, right. Where? How? When? Does getting wounded/dying mean we are kicking ass? Graham ought to smarten up some. Even Iraq wants us out. He's as stupid as GW.
OMG! Even the "good" Iraqis are tired of being buttf**ked by the US now. This demands a new foreign policy memo.... Form now on the only good Iraqi is a dead Iraqi. The american way, right?
The idea that somehow Sunnis and Shiites would stop being what they are after a little military training has always seemed a little silly. We can't train their religion out of them and make them into a secular army or police force. Sooner or later either their tribal loyalties or their religion is going to cause make them take sides.
The emphasis on fighting al-Qaeda has made them seem like cohesive units because both Sunnis and Shiites hate al-Qaeda, but sooner or later these guys are gonna start shooting at each other with weapons we gave them.
As they might have said on Seinfeld, IRAQ ‘RE-GIFTS’ DEMOCRACY
SpankyTheMonkey @ 5:
I wish I were so confident. I really don't think much would happen, certainly not what should happen (impeachment of both Pres and VP). As long as American Idol and Survivor stay on the air, I don't see any movement of the "sheeple" (what I consider the Bush apologists, or the apathetic, uneducated masses). We'll hear more screaming from the people already screaming ... but I just can't be confident that the sheeple will do much at all.
I've always been amazed and bewildered that US politicians and a portion of the electorate, have always throughout their history thought you could have peace through killing. There must be some sort of scientific experiment that could be performed to conclude why this is. "oh my god, he thumbed his nose at me...bomb him"...."hey, terrists blew up our building, why do they hate us?"
Odd behaviour. We sanction a nation for over a year, bomb the hell out of them killing their women and children, and can't quite grasp why they aren't bowing down to our mighty will. It is truly amazing.
PurplePatriot @ 12:
After tens of thousands of soccer moms bury their children, then they will take to the streets.
An attack on Iran, will put the US military in a desperate situation. Congress will be compelled to bring back the draft. Then a couple of years later, America will start turning off the TV and getting off the sofa.
Maybe in 2010 this will start turning around.
Weaseldog @ 14:
OR, it will invoke WW3. I truly believe the world will not sit idly by and let the US government expand war anymore. The world is tired of this "faux" war on terra. The entire world knows the US is up shiite creek without a paddle financially right now, and the military stretched so thin it'll snap with much more pressure. Expansion of the military will be the downfall especially when you have to borrow money continually to sustain it. If you go to a casino to gamble on credit, how long do they let you lose on that line of credit, before they pull the plug and either kick you out or break your legs, or both?
Weaseldog @ 14:
Maybe ... just in time to blame the democrats.
Iraq is a U.S. Colony.
Get used to it.
"So much for Sen. Lindsey Graham’s (R-S.C.) prediction"
I would be easier to keep up with what the conservatives have been right about. The list would be much shorter.
SpankyTheMonkey @ 5:
Keep in mind that the Bush administration is on it's way out. Most likely Bush would time any attack on Iran close enough to the time he leaves office that there wouldn't be enough time for any backlash against him. I don't think we should wish disaster upon ourselves.
L.A. Confidential @ 17:
The US is a Saudi Colony.
Get used to it.
Weaseldog @ 14:
Honestly, I would say much sooner than that. Not even the 'sheeple' are that clueless and ineffective. To think it would take a disastrous decision like attacking Iran to make all this happen....
Former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright says "War on Iran cannot be ruled out."
Seig Heil Hillary?
L.A. Confidential @ 17:
We aren't building the the world's largest and most expensive embassy in Iraq to pull out. I'll bet Dick Cheney rolled out the blue prints for it at his secret energy task force meeting with big oil.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2006-04-19-us-embassy_x.htm
Weaseldog @ 20:
Not really. We can literally destroy any country that fu*ks with us. And they know it.
Ruthless People @ 23:
They had eight years of Clinton to draft up their plans. They had it ready the minute Bush was installed into power without a doubt.
L.A. Confidential @ 24:
Who do you think we serve by driving oil from $20/Barrel to $83/Barrel? Who profits?
SpankyTheMonkey @ 21:
I like what you are arguing, but I can't think of a single reason to believe in it.
I like Santa Claus too.
Weaseldog @ 26:
Americans serve Big Oil. The United Big Oil States "uses" Saudi Arabia.
L.A. Confidential @ 24:
*LMAO* Ignorance really is bliss it seems.....
SpankyTheMonkey @ 29:
Don't kid yourself we can wipe out anyone if we really got serious.
We could have destroyed Afghanistan, Osama, Taliban, literally off the map with one well place Nuke on Sept 12.
L.A. Confidential @ 28:
Do we?
They are building artificial islands in the shape of the world and putting the world's tallest skyscrapers on them. They have the world's classiest hotels. They have a banking system untouchable by US terrorism laws, where it is said all the world's drug, piracy and terrorism money flows through. They have the world's biggest playground for the rich and famous. Halliburton moved there to avoid paying taxes and to exempt themselves from US law. The wealthy there buy and sell large harems of slave girls from Thailand. they drive the world's most expensive cars.
We have New Orleans and collapsing bridges.
Weaseldog @ 14:
I used to think a draft was inevitable, but Blackwater changed all that. There's no shortage of mercenaries we can employ as long as we don't mind paying extra for them. Sadly, Bush and Congress don't seem to mind.
L.A. Confidential @ 30:
Cool, in the mean time, inflation keeps rising and wages decline. We can't give our kids proper medical care but we can kick ass!
Weaseldog @ 31:
No you don't say. And who's fault is that?
Weaseldog @ 33:
Right, and Americans sit in from of the TV or Internet wasting their time babbling.
L.A. Confidential @ 30:
do you think the people that own the Bush family are going to let Bush nuke them? The Bush's billions could be frozen with the stroke of a pen. Do you really think they'd nuke the banks that hold their money?
I'm pissed today.
Nothings CHANGED
Weaseldog @ 36:
Thats for me to know and you to figure out.
Good Luck
NanaT @ 1:
And I pray that history accurately records the horrible damage that Bush's greedy wealthy base and ignorant Christian religious voters can inflicted on the USA and the world when they voted for that foolish sycophant who wore his religion on his sleeve.
Also, what we should be asking now is how these past elections were stolen and how most of the same process is still in effect. Diebold, no paper trails, voter intimidation, ringer apposing candidates, etc..
Kerry was such a weak fuck-up during his campaign that I believe he had no intention of winning and was merely a ringer opponent for his Skull&Bones brother. That explains why he conceded the race when voting fraud was blatantly obvious.
Please excuse my typos. I get so riled up when I type about this disgusting subject that I post too fast and forget to proofread.
L.A. Confidential @ 38:
As long as the Saudis keep returning the love, our politicians won't move against them.
Keep in mind that the Saudis own a lot of US real estate and businesses. TXU here in Texas just got sold to them.
Citicorp (a Saudi Corporation), holds paper on millions of homes, and holds loans to many US businesses.
The owners of the Carlysle Group are Saudi Princes. They put the Bush family on the board to give it an American friendly look. Arabs were on the board until 9/11, including a few Bin Ladens. They gave up their seats, but maintained controlling interest.
pissed off patricia @ 4:
Supposedly David Petraeus not only read the history, but did his doctoral thesis on the lessons learned from Vietnam, then wrote the book. Goes to prove that you can read the lessons of history and still not learn from it.
Heck, my own bank, 'Bank of America' is Saudi owned.
We need to make one more sincere effort to solve the birthing problems of our new 51st State, Iraq.
Let's appoint a new Governor, someone who represents the true family values and ethical principles of this administration.
Despite his apparent insistence that he is going to remain a member of Congress, Larry Craig might very well welcome the opportunity to escape the country. And, he has been selected and is about to be installed as the newest member of the Idaho Hall of Fame. (For those of you who wonder about the reason for this appointment, it's because Idaho does not have a Hall of Infame).
Christ, Craig as a member of a Hall of Fame! That's comparable to G.W. Bush being accepted into the Texas Mensa. (Is 'Texas Mensa' an oxymoron?)
Anyway, Craig would be perfect as Governor of Iraq. When he starts tippy-toeing in those Baghdad toilets, he's gonna be in seventh heaven (you know what they say about those Arab camel-jockeys).
L.A. Confidential @ 30:
Oh ya. Other nuclear powers would sit idly by trembling at our display of power!! Hahahaha.....don't be so delusional. Sure we gots weapons. So does everyone else. Your point? We can't use em unless we pay for them, and currently China OWNS 90% of CONgress and 90% of the Senate, and YOUR house, and YOUR bank, and YOUR health insurance, and.........hell, they could destroy us without firing a shot...mind you it might also destroy them, but hey, would that not be what would happen if one of our wingnuts shot of a nuke that missed it's target, kinda like our cruise and patriot missiles miss 90% of their targets?
L.A. Confidential @ 17:
Then you can hardly justify anything you do in Iraq as terrorism anymore. From now on they are "freedom fighters" battling oppressive colonial rule pr. your definition. I can just picture it.. a bunch of them throwing crates of freedom fries into basra harbor, followed by some intellectuals writing up a Declaration of Independance. Oh! The irony...
Weaseldog @ 43:
I did not know that.
Holy shit!
Didn't Sen Linsey Grahm just say they'd meet these goals in three months?
CensoredFan @ 44:
And I heard China also supplies most of the parts for America's WMDs.
L.A. Confidential @ 37:
Like Bill Maher has said ... Everyone said how 9/11 would change everything. It changed nothing.
L.A. Confidential @ 38:
I think you believe it.
But why should the world believe that we'd start a nuclear exchange with Russia and China?
Until we start dropping nukes, the world isn't going to see us an enemy that will use nukes willy nilly.
Once we start using nukes in conventional war, then other nations will start using them against us. Nuclear proliferation will become an actual problem rather than a fantasy problem.
If we used nukes against Saudi Arabia, a third of the worlds oil production will just end. China will crap bricks. They'll soon have billions of people idle, with nothing to do, and not enough food. they'll be forced to mobilize to take the ME oilfields away from us.
Carmikl @ 42:
Goes to prove that you can learn from the lessons of history, but sell out America for political or financial gain.
CraigJohnson @ 48:
Not to forget those flag lapel pins and probably the flags draped over our soldiers coffins.
Fools on the Hill @ 47:
LOL -- they move the goalposts so often, it's a wonder they even bother unpacking them.
PurplePatriot @ 51:
The interesting thing about Ph.Ds is that there are usually about equal numbers of them on either side of any public policy argument. I guess that means that if you have a PhD you have about a 50% chance of being right.
CensoredFan @ 44:
Finally, a voice of reason...and L.A.---you are utterly clueless!
“There is no doubt - no doubt at all - that these tactics are torture and subject to prosecution as war crimes. We know this because the law is very clear, when you don't have war criminals like AEI's John Yoo rewriting it to give one man unchecked power. …We have war criminals in the White House. What are we going to do about it?”
- Andrew Sullivan, Republican Blogger in The Atlantic 10/07
“All of the solemn 'debates' and hand-wringing and anti-torture laws that were passed have changed very little, because the administration knows that there is no political will ever to enforce any of that. They know that the political and media institutions intended to impose checks on their behavior will never take any meaningful stand against what they do, no matter how blatantly extreme or illegal.”
- Glenn Greenwald, Salon.com 10/07
The good news is Petraeus will give them "the breathing space" they need to attain those benchmarks. So whats the new spin gonna be? I think they're running out of lies.
The best punditry of the last month? (paraphrased):
The US has only two good options, option A) get everyone out by midnight tonight. Option B) get everyone out by midnight tomorrow night. We are the fuel that is burning Iraq down.
-Seymour Hersh
moondancer @ 58:
By the time I'm old and dead, and we are still in Iraq, they will still be using excuses, as Americans ignore the entire plight of Iraqis, cuz, hey, it all boils down to a majority of Americans don't give a rat's ass what happens in other countries, even if it involves the death of our own "underclass" kids. They just don't care, or this would have been over already.
give senator lindsey graham credit. this man is actually going over to iraq to serve in the military. he is currently the only senator serving the the iraq war. at least he practice what he believe in unlike bush, who had no military experience and none of his children is in iraq.
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