Dems caving (again) on FISA?
Dems vowed in August to revisit FISA after caving to the administration's demands. It looks like they're caving again.
Two months after insisting that they would roll back broad eavesdropping powers won by the Bush administration, Democrats in Congress appear ready to make concessions that could extend some crucial powers given to the National Security Agency.
Administration officials say they are confident they will win approval of the broadened authority that they secured temporarily in August as Congress rushed toward recess. Some Democratic officials concede that they may not come up with enough votes to stop approval.
Even now, they're so afraid of being labeled "weak," that they can't stand up for what's right. Edward Copeland and Brilliant at Breakfast have more.
Update: The NYT piece may have not have been helpful after all.
As Glenn Greenwald explained in a very helpful post, “[A]t least thus far, from everything I can tell, the picture is more complicated and less depressing than this NYT article suggests, and the defeat is not yet a fait accompli. To begin with, the bill to be proposed today by the House Democratic leadership actually contains some surprisingly good and important provisions.”
At Daily Kos, pontificator also tries to correct the Times piece, saying, "We have a good bill before the House. The ACLU and the progressive caucus were consulted, and many in the progressive caucus are comfortable with it."
You can read the bill summary. It looks like the NYT article was misleading.
No one should be surprised by this.
There is a 'reason'. People do not want to accept this so called reason....That is why.
Look at my homepage and you will see for yourself as to WHY the Democrats are 'caving in'. The 'Powers that Be' want it that way....
It will take about 2 hours of your time to see the FULL reason as to why and a few other mysteries out there. Worth the watch....
I'm certainly not. The dems have proven themselves to be excellent repug lackeys. It's exactly what I expected them to do.
Actually, I expected them to lie down on the house floor and roll over so the repugs could rub their bellys too.
I told ya so. But, sure as rain Progressives will keep voting for Dems.
Peace.
Ralph Nader was not completely wrong.
This is what I wrote to Pelosi. I tried to be nice but it's hard when your country is dying:
Gee, Speaker Pelosi, thanks for abandoning my constitutional rights. Why don't you and the rest of the Democratic Party just kiss George W. Bush's posterior on national television? It's bad enough you took impeachment off the table for the most corrupt administration in US history, but now you sell my rights down the river because you and the rest of my once-beloved party are afraid you'll look like pussies on national security. I'm trying to be civil but don't get your hopes up. I voted Democratic to change this situation in our government, not to keep the status quo. I, and many other Dems, am at the point now where I can see no difference between you and the Repubs in Congress, and since I see no difference I, and many other Dems, will sit at home in November 2008. Why elect pseudo-Republicans when I can sit back and watch real Republicans get elected? I expect THEM to violate my civil rights, but I never expected my own party to stab me in the back. And please do not respond with another one of your lame excuses saying how the war on terror has made it difficult to balance my rights with national security. My rights ARE the national security of this country. Grow a spine, dammit. You've got the American public behind you. Stop worrying that GWB might say something bad about you. What happened to my Fighting Democratic Party, or are you all a bunch of corporate losers now?
John Stewart pegged it: the eroding of the Constitution that is taking place under Bush w2ill make Hillary the most powerful President ever.
I think that's at least one of the reasons for the caving in: these bozos really want the power when (and if) they get back into the WH.
Dom - Real good letter. And yes they are a bunch of Corporistas. Time to pull the knife out and stick it to them.
Let's not kid ourselves; it's only a matter of time before DEMS ALLOW BUSH TO INSTALL ‘NANNY-CAMS’ IN THEIR OFFICES.
Dems and Repubs are both playing for the same team. The corporations. Time for a third party.
Two hundred years ago, four years was about how long it took to really get something done. They had to carry messages on horseback.
Today, these criminals still have the same amount of time, but the damage they can do is three orders of magnitude greater.
We don't just need a new president, we need a new system.
Yup, one by one Congress is going thru the list of Bush's impeachable offenses and crossing them off. Not by indicting him but by legalizing his illicit activities.
Torture - check
War Crimes - check
Illegal Wiretapping - check
Now we know what Pelosi was talking about when saying impeachment was off of the table. How do we impeach her???
It's long past time to clean house.
Starting with the major orchestraters of the "cave-in": Pelosi, Hoyer and Emmanuel. Until we start asking the million-dollar question: "What's in it for them?" and get a spotlight burning on their asses, they will continue this shyt.
Being afraid of a President with a less than 30% approval rating is like the RAW FanNation being afraid of Vince MacMahon. He can't do without their support and he knows it; what's more, the FanNation KNOWS IT.
Any doubts now as to the unlimited and unchecked power of the Bush junta? This decade may well be considered the Dark Ages of America. McCarthy Revisited. I'm going to miss the US. I haven't been back in years....and I don't see myself going back any time soon.
Pelosi/Hoyer/Emanuel have become so good at enabling the BUSH/CHENEY/LIEBERMAN JUNTA, that the neocons no longer need their REPUBLICAN BASE.....
Electing the CLINTONS in '08 will insure the continued march of our RULING ELITES into PERMINENBT FASCISM....as would any of the BUSHBOTS running on the REPUKE side of the election, so now what the hell are WE, THE PEOPLE GONNA DO ABOUT IT?
Dom @ 6:
You've been very kind.
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Nancy is a Republican, pretending to be a Democrat.
She doesn't need to grow a spine, she is remaining true to her beliefs.
We keep getting calls from Dems thinking we'll be sending a check their way and the persistence is annoying...the last one was practically whining that we can't let the Repugs gain any ground...he didn't want to hear me continue to say that I put my financial support towards people who stand for something and do something...it's not about "having enough votes" it's about having political courage...listening to constituents...and standing up for what they said they would...of course we don't want to see more Republican victories but I'm not such an old fool as to believe that EVERY Democrat has a halo around their head!!!
I can't believe I ever thought Pelosi and Reed could be real leaders.
What was I thinking? I guess I was really only hoping - and look where that's gotten us.
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Trittydi @ 19:
Whoops - Reid.
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OTOH, I can't see the ReThugs allowing Hillary to have all that unchecked power if she becomes President.
The ReThugs will become Constitutional scholars and re-implement everything they allowed Bush to shyt on during his Administration, just because she's Hillary Clinton, and the ReThugs HATE the Clintons.
Why when a ReThug is caught with his pants down (pun fully intended), instead of answering questions about said ReThug, they always pull out the Clenis (don't know if pun was intended here, LOL).
It's a sad day that speaks volumes about the weakness of the Democratic Party's presence in Congress. If they have a defense - and it's a very weak one indeed - it's that they can't get much done with out bringing some Repubs along, and that's what this seems to smell of. However, if there is one single issue that they should hold tight on, it's resisting the further expansion of this administration's already staggeringly large powers.
We all need to pressure them on this; let's remind them that they do actually have constituents to answer to.
Has anybody seen a Constitution or a Bill of Rights lying around somewhere....I seem to have lost it!
Trittydi @ 19:
I couldn't agree more.
Well, the cavalry has arrived only they are helping the indians slaughter the villagers. Great system. I won't be voting for either party. I will not give anyone permission to take away my constitutional rights.
That is not my party. My party has been hijacked by corporatists.
I'm with Dennis.
Old Dood @ 2:
Thanks for the link. I will report back after I have time to watch it. I'll be honest. It might take a few days to get it in but after watching the first couple of minutes I'd say that the intro is very professionally done. Looks impressive.
You can be sure, if a Dem is elected President in '08, that any Repubs left in the House and Senate by then will do their best to repeal all this shit.
So weak against being called weak that they wind up being weak.
Good thing these compromising weaklings weren't in power in 1776. Our Founding Fathers knew well that eroding our liberties and freedoms at the expense of increased government surveillance and intrusion could be a very dangerous proposition and took proper measures to prevent it.
But in the end, to them, political expediency is stronger than taking a stand on principle. This isn't leadership in any way, shape or form and ultimately compromises the interest of the American people. Maybe they should remember that appeasement got Chamberlain in a lot of trouble in the late 1930's. How slowly we learn.
Here's an e-mail contact form for Speaker Pelosi, if interested. This is what I sent her ~
Dear Speaker Pelosi ~
You can take down the "New Direction" banner on your website - it clearly doesn't mean anything.
What about my Constitutional rights? Wasn't Congress going to do something about that?
You've managed to make me sorry I voted at all. Congratulations - I didn't think that was possible. You are all completely pathetic and I can't believe that I ever admired you at all, or thought you were actually leadership material.
When something is actually on the line it clearly doesn't mean anything to the lot of you. You did keep up the pretense for a bit though, which could be perceived as a kindness. Or was it really only saving face? Well that's gone now too, isn't it? No more face left to save.
Ralph Nader was right after all.
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Dom @ 6:
Wonderful letter. I have spoken for over 20 minutes on the phone to (D) Rep. Carol Shea-Porter telling her of my disgust with the congress and at this juncture I do not believe that the freshman Congress-woman is part of the problem but time will tell. It's still not too late but we need to be assertive and not listen to rhetoric like some of that coming from Jim Webb. It's time for tit for tat: you're either with us or against us Dems.
foolme1ns @ 25:
This is a tough argument to beat.
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AbbeyHoffmansGhost @ 27:
It is in 3 parts... Yes it is very well done. It also brings up Aaron Russo in the film. Not just Americans should see this....everyone should see this film along with Aaron Russo's Freedom to Facism.
Elect Kucinich/Feingold '08. These are the last people that either the republicans or 'savior' dems want for the nomination. NO other candidates have done what they promised. Feingold himself continues to introduce legislation to end the Iraq war!
Hillary won't. Obama won't. Edwards won't. Paul won't.
Kucinich/Feingold '08
The only sane choice.
What do you all expect if you let people be your leaders? The united States is not a Democracy, it is a Democratic Republic. The politicians do not represent you, they represent the party and their own self interests. You talk about eroding liberties like you had them to begin with!
Be your own leader, don't vote and go out and plant a garden!
ANARCHY NOW! (Not the blow-up-buildings kind, the nice, cooperative kind.)
“We are giving the N.S.A. what it legitimately needs for national security but with far more limitations and protections than are in the Protect America Act,” said Brendan Daly, a spokesman for Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Democrat of California.
Just like taking impeachment off the table, this demands an explanation.
Screw this. Let's just get it over with. Reintroduce the "Bill of Rights" to congress for a vote. Bet it won't pass.
Trittydi @ 31:
Of course they're caving: the majority of them are moral cowards who have apparently never read the Constitution. They are no better than the overwhelming mass of Republicans, who themselves are unashamed enemies of the Constitution, liberal democracy, Freedom, Liberty and Human Rights.
If any of you simpering, spineless shitheads from Congress are reading this, you need to stop and think how much you are giving future generations cause to curse your memory. You are sacrificing every worthy thing for a non-attainable security.
Get it through your heads, Congress assholes:
The only places that are safe and secure are graveyards!
Dom @ 6:
You GO dawg....I am going resend it and give credit where credit is due. Couldn't have said it better. How long can our Government which is supposedly BY the People, FOR the people go on ignoring our voices? It looks like my little theory about the republicrats is still holding water. When it comes to gathering power into the Executive Branch...they all for that so they can get them some of that. Hillary's mouth is already watering.
I sure screwed up my response to Trittydi@31. The paragraph starting "and when 40-50%..." is my response.
Maybe we should start a "Constitution Campaign." We could print up copies of the U.S. Constitution and each one of us could mail it to Pelosi, Reid, etc.
Obviously, they've never seen the U.S. Constitution, so we should do our duty and mail them a copy.
Uhmmm,.... in order to "cave in", don't you have to first begin at some other point, like of strength?
This is like saying that the decayed corpse of Rocky Marciano is going to lose a title bout tomorrow night, when they throw it lifeless into the ring,...
RUB BER STAMP.
Thank you Dems, you are truly useless.
Jones @ 10:
Actually, when the government is no longer responsive to the will of the people, it's time for another revolution.
Third party.
flamethrower @ 12:
THAT'S THE QUESTION OF THE DAY!
hanshiro @ 35:
Exactly.
And so it would appear that the bait and switch has been used: the extreme radical right has taken over the Republican party and in turn the Republican party, being displaced, has taken over the Democratic party. Where did the Democrats go?
The dems are afraid of being labeled weak? Have these guys not been paying attention? Since they have taken control of congress, they have shown themselves to be spineless, subservient, and complacent to the whims of the white house.
The first thing the dems needs to do is get rid of Pelosi as speaker. She is a coward. Put someone in there with some teeth. More action :: Less lip service.
Kucinich/Feingold ‘08.....Now your talking.
They got my vote.
You watch.....Nancy is going to issue a statement saying how they didn't have the votes or there was other legislation that is more important to the country or new 'intelligence' has been brought to her attention or some other sing-song BULLSHIT. All the while our Government is making a list of people to round up for detention camps. I think I'm going to strand myself on a deserted island somewhere in the south pacific.
Cowards and traitors.
My email to Nancy follows. I'll be with you folks in Gitmo.
As you and Bush work together in the spirit of bipartisanship to eliminate American Rights and Freedoms, what is the final plan?
Is it because the terrorists hate us for our freedoms? Once you and Bush have destroyed the things that make America the Land of Liberty, will the terrorists be our allies? Is this the goal you are working toward? To create a nation that our enemies will love and cherish?
When you and Bush have eliminated the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights, what kind of nation do foresee for us? What is your plan? Where are you and your good friend George Bush taking us?
Jerry @ 52:
That is the single skill these corporatist whores have demonstrated: excuse making. They are just looking for reasons to capitulate to the fascists; it has never been their intent but to do anything else.
bushsuckcheney @ 51:
they don't count votes anymore...
Dancer @ 18:
THIS is what every Democratic incumbent or candidate NEEDS to hear from EVERYONE on EVERY call. This is what gets their attention.
WHY should I give money to YOU? YOU have clearly shown you don't represent ME.
I am more moderate than most here, but at the end of the day, if a Democratic Congress is going to act no differently than a Republican one, I'll just spend my campaign money on trips to Cabo.
WL (Proud resident of OH-10)
I have to agree with an earlier poster, just like the neo-cons took over the Republican party, it appears the corporatists (is there any difference betwixt them and the neo-cons?) have stolen the Democratic party.
Ya know, at first I was just toying with the idea of fleeing to New Zealand, now I'm actually seriously investigating the mechanics of it. If Billary wins (a quasi-independent subsidiary of BushCo), I am off. Starting to get a very post-Weimar vibe in my country...
Not one more penny for any Democratic candidate. EVER. I have even re registered as an independent.
I don't know if there is a word in English that quite captures the combination of timidity, subservience, and impotence of the Democratic party, but their constant folding on constitution issues doesn't shock or surprise me anymore.
Today's Democrats are yesterday's Republicans.
Both parties are so far right on the spectrum that any true difference has blurred. The only reason they pretend to disagree with each other is to propagate the farce that they are two separate parties and Americans really have any choice at all.
OT. sorry, but this story needs to be out there.
Iraqi report is finally finished and al Maliki has told the White House to get Blackwater out of the country in 6 months and to hand over the contractors who killed their 17 civilians!
MSM is letting the story die….
http://willyloman.wordpress.co.....them-over/
This is Iraq saying “Our Lives Have Value!”. Very important step.
Another amazing set of slanders and stupidities, in response to a totally vague journalistic hit piece suggesting the Republican spin will no doubt come true.
There's not one of you fit to tie the Speaker's shoes.
It's amazing that people will whore their disaffiliation to such a degree, but that's politics.
Paul in LA @ 63:
Wake up [Deleted. Attack the message, not the messenger-Sitemonitor]. It's not a hit piece it's called reality. If you had your eyes open for the last 10 months you would see that this is the party line. BTW, the Speaker can't tie her own shoes, and she can kiss my ass.
They caved on Iraq too:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1007/6251.html
Geez, I wonder if our government is broken?
Weaseldog @ 17:
Wow, you know, in rereading this, I'm convinced that quite a few supposed 'people' writing this crapola are plants.
You're unreal.
Who exactly are YOUR representatives? Rep. Diane Watson, my representative, votes with the Speaker. She's in the Out of Iraq Caucus, and she is working hard with other Democrats to drain the swamp. WHO does YOUR representative vote with?
If you are so goddamned pure that you can potshot the first Progressive Speaker in US history over what she might do, then someone should bring you all glass slippers, because you really are too pure to touch the ground.
I'm so tired of the GUTLESS Democrats it isn't funny. Who elected these assholes? What weaklings!
We need to get very angry and call, email, write and complain at such a level that these DEM cowards have seldom seen before and help them to grow a spine.
I have my Senators and Rep in my cell phone call list. I have great fun during my lunch hour making myself into a self-riotous nuisance to them. And no one said you only can call your own reps.
getalife @ 65:
You quote rightwing propaganda, Mitch McConnell's office and POLITICO, and say that the shit you read is reality.
Hilarious. Nevermind that the House Appropriations Chairman just said there would be no more supplementals without withdrawal plans, and the Speaker just said the same thing.
Better tune into politico, and see what your Republican propaganda line is for today.
Wolf Singer @ 68:
WHO are they?
If they wanted to win here, couldn't they do it by simply not allowing this bill to reach the floor for a vote?
Gonzalez @ 67:
Who are your representatives. Who are YOU sending to Congress?
None of you live in the United States. You have zero representation, no history with past governments, and lived through Congresses that were PERFECT. How dare this Congress not be perfect? What cyncial pricks failed to elect better people?
Oh yeah -- YOU.
JustSickOfIt @ 64:
You're full of it. You're trashing the Speaker over rumors of what she might do.
[Deleted. Attack the message, not the messenger-Sitemonitor]
Paul in LA @ 72:
Either you work in one of these DINO's offices, or you're the most reliable sucker on the face of the earth. Either way, the party establishment appreciates your blind, unquestioning support.
dave @ 59:
[Deleted. Attack the message, not the messenger-Sitemonitor]
william @ 60:
I think that they're doing a good job to make Democrat stand for the word you want.
Apples @ 74:
No, I have some of the finest representatives in the Congress, and you are afraid to compare yours for mine. MINE aren't the problem, except for Senator Feinstein, who is the ghost of Ronald Reagan, and a California curse.
Otherwise, I put my Boxer and my Watson up against your whatever. And as a Californian, Speaker Pelosi, whose career I am exceptionally proud of, and my nextdoor Congressman, Waxman.
What do YOU send to Congress?
I think Pelosi et al might be scared of being rendered to a foreign country and tortured. Oh wait. No they're not. That only happens to guilty people.
Vote For Hillary -- More O' The Same!
Different Anonymous @ 58:
[Deleted. Attack the message, not the messenger-Sitemonitor]
WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court on Tuesday terminated a lawsuit from a man who claims he was abducted and tortured by the CIA, effectively endorsing Bush administration arguments that state secrets would be revealed if the case were allowed to proceed.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21205942/
I hate that f**king excuse. They use it for all their crimes.
This new FISA bill is supposed to have rules but as we know, bush doesn't follow the rules. He won't allow Congress to see the reports for the same reason as above. National security shhhh......State secrets shhhhh.
They don't want this to come to trial because they are guilty of kidnapping and torture. State secrets has NOTHING to do with it.
Paul in LA @ 77:
What the fuck are you talking about? What will comparing congressional representatives prove... ? That doesn't give you some special street cred, you know. It's not like collecting baseball cards.
For the record, I must live like blocks away from you-- considering Waxman.
ThinkProgress on the new FISA bill:
Paul in LA @ 66:
I'm in an all Republican district.
I think what you're saying is that some dog poop taste better than other dog poops. If I don't like your favorite dog poop then I shouldn't be saying that dog poop stinks.
It is hard to tie Nancy's shoelaces when she's bent over into Bush's lap.
Are we out of Iraq yet?
The authoritarian obedience traits you exhibit are the mark of a true neocon.
Apples @ 82:
The people trashing the Democrats en masse and shitting on the most progressive Speaker in US history must be sending some REALLY WONDERFUL PEOPLE to Congress to make them so inflated with themselves that they can slander people for fun. Who are their offerings to the national government?
And then you find out they live in Issa's district, or something. Do absolutely NO political work. Are on a permanent vacation from work, because they've got a SCAPEGOAT. And those ain't easy to get nowadays, when there are so many people to blame.
[Deleted. Attack the message, not the messenger-Sitemonitor]
Paul in LA @ 69:
They keep saying this in public and backsliding on the vote.
You keep getting fooled over and over.
Paul in LA @ 86:
Paul in LA @ 86:
Why haven't you stopped the war yet? What is wrong with you? Why have you failed?
Paul in LA @ 85:
What you say would be true, if the Dems in congress had shown any spine. It's October and I'm still waiting. STOP THE WAR. IMPEACH THE PRESIDENT. PUT BACK HABEUS CORPUS. etc. What have we got? nothing.
Instead they've decided that they'll win next November and in the meantime they can pass some nice pork for their districts.
Is our representatives learning? For me, I hold the leadership responsible. Pelosi is responsible for her conduct. So far, she's a spineless worm.
[Deleted. Attack the message, not the messenger-Sitemonitor]
Paul in LA @ 91:
FISA is unconstitutional. It is an illegal law.
I think there should be a new party: The Constitutionalist Party. A party that upholds the Constitution, and the standards set by it. Period.
Who's with me?
zugzug @ 90:
[Deleted. Attack the message, not the messenger-Sitemonitor]The AG is out. Rove is out. Further supplementals without withdrawal plans are out. A habeus restoration bill is not a problem in the House, but it won't pass the Senate yet.
As for stopping the war and impeaching the chimp, not enough votes on the planet to stop a dictator who has the media behind him, the war underway, and terrorist attacks to refresh the fear as needed. But NOOO, it's not an emergency or anything.
[Deleted-Sitemonitor]
Paul in LA @ 91:
The last go at re-legislating FISA, pardoned Bush for all the crimes of this type that he had already committed. WTF is up with that?
Now you're behind continuing to let the Bush Gov spy without cause? You're a neocon concern troll, aren't you?
[Deleted. Attack the message, not the messenger-Sitemonitor]
Would the Democrats rather be labeled weak by their opponents or spineless by their supporters?
Just asking...
With all this caving in it seems the Dems would've found Osama by now.
[Deleted. Attack the message, not the messenger-Sitemonitor]
goatsage @ 97:
COUNT THE VOTES. You may think it's a good idea to hold an impeachment and only get 25 votes for conviction, but no one who has counted the votes does.
I remember getting calls from polling companies back in 1988, and when one asked me if I was a liberal or a conservative, I answered conservative, I believe in the Divine Rights of Kings.
They laughed.
The georgie-boy got elected.
And now no one's laughing.
I wish someone would give georgie some Rogaine, and tell him him it's a hemmorhoid ointment.
Paul in LA @ 94:
Work for the damned votes. The Dems don't even try. They say, "Oh it's hard to fight the neocons. Oh, we don't have the votes, we should quit now! We should vote with Bush!"
So what if it is hard to do what is right. What do you get if you try and fail versus, voting with the Republicans and winning through losing? Why vote with the Republicans? Is it for cash prizes from lobbyists?
Why is impeachment off the table? More cash prizes from lobbyists?
ysbaddaden @ 98:
Yeah, but maybe the Dems have only tunnel vision
Paul in LA @ 100:
Impeachment? Where in my question did I mention impeachment?
sold out sold out sold our sold out
theWalrus @ 28:
Sadly, that's the only way it happen. It will be interesting to see which Dems re-think their opposition to the "unitary executive" theory when that day comes.
Sadder still: Even with a Dem president, it will probably require a veto-proof majority.
Paul in LA @ 96:
I'll take credit for this, if you take credit for all the dead in the current wars.
ysbaddaden @ 101:
Bullshit, ys. Boy Wonder never was legally elected yet.
In their mealy mouthed efforts to 'not appear' weak on terror...
The dems in congress are showing what they're apparently really made of in caving on this FISA shit.... They may be able to sell to some that they are not 'weak'... maybe... But what they really are, weakness contention aside... are FUCKING COWARDS!!!!! Every last goddamned one to bailed on this FISA issue. They keep this weakass shit up on every issue they claim to be taking Chimpy to task on, then not doing ANYTHING 'real'. They will NOT be able to get out from under that 'coward charge'. And, ultimately, if they don't change their gameplan, it will haunt and hound them right out of office........JD
Weaseldog @ 103:
Work for them? You need forty-five votes, from co-conspirators.
There aren't enough blowjobs on earth to make those forty-five Larry Craig's change their orientation, W-dog.
You really shouldn't throw so many stones.
[Deleted. Attack the message, not the messenger-Sitemonitor]
[Deleted. Attack the message, not the messenger-Sitemonitor]
Dems should buy a gold mine, and attempt to make money caving.
The sickest part of the joke: They are caving due to 'political pressure'.
What? We, the people that they represent want MORE people sneaking into our private lives?
I didn't think that's what "NO MORE SPYING, END IT NOW' meant, but I have been known to be wrong from time to time on such nuanced points in the past... But I have to say this: Rollover and see if I vote for your asses in November. Taste what true political power is when it's used upside your fluff filled heads!
Paul, you're doing a great job, making more people flee the democratic party.
Keep it up.
Paul in LA @ 109:
He sort of did in 2004, but with the aid of illegal actions by a Republican elections judge in Ohio, basically disenfranchising new voters, including those now fighting in Iraq.
Funny how the MSM aren't connecting the dots. There's no real evidence beyond the anecdotal to support the charge of fraudelent voting, but there is evidence of vote caging and voter suppression, that leads to Republican operatives intimidating voters in certain precincts, and retaliation on federal investigators of the DOJ who don't find any evidence of election fraud.
Hard to believe I could ever look back on the good ol' days of Ray Gun.
[Deleted. Attack the message, not the messenger-Sitemonitor]
ysbaddaden @ 117:
No, you got that totally wrong. The SecState was Bush's campaign chair, and he REFUSED to do a court-ordered recount, and ran out the clock.
Since that time, the entire Cuyahoga registrars office has been cleared out, "FOR CAUSE."
And the Diebold et al. evoter-fraud machines have been outed. AND, the RNC is under Congressional subpoena over the FELONY vote-caging they did.
NEVER elected legally. A total criminal.
[Deleted. Attack the message, not the messenger-Sitemonitor]
Paul in LA @ 94:
They PASSED laws making Guantanamo legal after the fact instead of closing it. They have done everything that Bush has asked, including 2 separate funding bills for the war. They keep funding the war. All they have to do is stop sending along checks and the war will be stopped.
I hope you're right and they find a spine and do something. In the meantime, I'm going to find another party. Goodbye Democrats you useless POS.
Jones @ 10:
Time for a third party? Please forgive my laughter at you. Time for a third party? When the deck is so stacked for the Dems and Repugs? It would take you a hundred years to get a third party into the majority! I dont know about you but I dont expect to live that long and by then it will be too damn late.
Paul in LA @ 112:
What difference does it make when the laws you pass get modified by a signing statement and then ignored by a President who doesn't believe in checks and balances or the separation of powers. Remember: VP Office not in the executive? The answer:
IMPEACH, stop funding the war.
The constitution's answer for dictatorship is impeachment. Start an investigation, some republicans will vote for it once they see how their country has been destroyed (and that they'll never get elected again if they don't).
underdog @ 11:
Or as they say on the street,
"Don't hate the player, hate The Game."
I think it might be better to read the bill than the NYT article about it. A summary can be found at think progress (as noted in #83 above)
The idea of this bill is to RESTORE the restrictions of FISA that the Chimp Administration has disregarded. Some key provisions:
Clarifies Ambiguous Language on Warrantless Domestic Searches. The bill clarifies and eliminates ambiguous language in the PAA that appeared to authorize warrantless searches inside the United States, including physical searches of American homes, offices, computers, and medical records.
A RESTORE ACT Authorization May Not Be Used to Target Any Known U.S. Person. If the government learns that the target of surveillance is a U.S. person (say, an American traveling abroad), it cannot use this new authority.
Requires an Audit of the President’s Surveillance Program and Other Warrantless Surveillance Programs. This audit mandates a report and documents related to these programs be provided to Congress in unclassified form with a classified annex.
Reiterates the Exclusivity of FISA. Includes House-passed bipartisan Schiff-Flake language stating that FISA is the exclusive means to conduct electronic surveillance of Americans for the purpose of foreign intelligence collection.
Pontificator writes:
In short, just because Democrats have a bill that addresses FISA does not mean that they have "caved." I think that C&L should go back and review this, and perhaps post an update.
IMPEACH, stop funding the war.
The constitution’s answer for dictatorship is impeachment. Start an investigation, some republicans will vote for it once they see how their country has been destroyed (and that they’ll never get elected again if they don’t).
You still haven't figured out that your pleas for impeachment are falling on deaf ears?
all true - but they have still done better than the 109th. they have done SOME things.
I don't believe that signing statements actually "modify" the laws - though I don't think it has been tested in court, the executive does not have the power to make law. Really all Bush is doing with such a statement is saying either "as I understand this bill, I can do whetever the hell I want" or "Oh, yeah? Well I'm going to hold my breath til I turn blue and never enforce this one." I suspect that with the Dems in "power" (ha ha), if he goes very far with this it will go to he courts.
I do agree, though, that the only solution (as spelled out in the constitution) is impeachment. And the sooner the better.
Frankly folks. I have taken that step over the cliff. I have come to the realization that neither of these political factions, republicans and democrats alike, are not working for the people of the United States of America. Nor do I expect them to do so.
Paul in LA @ 113:
Yet you want to blame me for everything the Republican party does?
The Republicans are smarter on strategy. They fight for everything they want. They even fight for the things they can't win. And the reason is, it gives them room for compromise. They can trade in the battles they would've lost, to make sure that they win when it matters.
The Democrat's strategy is weaker. They only fight the battles they can win. When they have to compromise they are forced to trade in things that matter.
In the last election, I watched Rahm Emmanual and Nancy Pelosi, fight every anti-war candidate they could, and promote pro-war candidates in their stead. They did this, they argued, because they wanted to promote candidates that had a chance of winning. So they promoted Republican-Lite Candidates that vote for the war.
But that reason is false. the Dems would've gotten the same sweep if they had promoted anti-war candidates.
And where was Nancy on this vote to have Iran's Republican National Guard declared to be a terrorist organization? Why did the Dems vote to help Bush gain support for a war on Iran?
And maybe you rallied maybe you didn't. Why not tell us that you're an astronaut too? On the internet, this kind of chest thumping is meaningless.
You still haven’t figured out that your pleas for impeachment are falling on deaf ears?
then we'd better yell louder.
dirk gently @ 125:
Funny, I don't see the words "High crimes and misdemeanors" anywhere. What difference does passing this law make when they just sign secret memos making whatever they want legal. The congress has to impeach the chimp.
steambomb @ 126:
No, I've figured it out, that's why I will not vote for a democrat this coming election.
Dirk Gently just schooled Paul in LA on how to persuade people.
not every bill can be an impeachment. again, i agree the whole administration should be impeached. so far, the only bill floating to do that is kucinich's call for cheney's impeachment. but he isn't getting any traction because, while most americans agree with every one of his policies they think he is too short or wacky or something. which i just don't get.
still, secret memos don't make anything legal. just because bush does it, doesn't mean it's legal. yes, we need to start holding him accountable (preferably in chains), but THIS PARTICULAR BILL seems more like a means to do so (read the audit requirements) than a capitulation to Bush's trampling of the constitution.
Weaseldog @ 133:
He won a Nobel Prize in Persuadinomics for the aforementioned pwnage. True story. It took him 600 hours of work.
actually, it was a "no bull" prize. sounds similar, but somewhat les prestegious.
dirk gently @ 134:
We're in trouble when the executive branch is actively trying to find ways to twist the laws as much as they can. Signing statements are a way to make new law by making certain provisions ignored. Example, with this new FISA bill, Bush could issue a signing statements saying that the whole law is not needed because he can do what he wants under executive privilege. Law ignored. Congress circumvented.
zugzug @ 137:
Exactly.
Bush doesn't give a crap about laws. They are just a waste of time.
If passing laws were enough, we'd have no bank robberies or murders. But passing a law is only the first step. The laws must be enforced.
No one will enforce this new law, for fearing of appearing weak.
Nancy Pelosi was supposed to be the new Sheriff. Well, the Black Hat Boys are shooting up the street. Where is the Sheriff?
Signing statements are a way to make new law by making certain provisions ignored. Example, with this new FISA bill, Bush could issue a signing statements saying that the whole law is not needed because he can do what he wants under executive privilege. Law ignored. Congress circumvented.
see, i don't think that's true. i think that's what the chimp and his organ grinder WANT to be true, but congress has options to establish the law.
of course, their ultimate recourse is impeachment, which pricedure the republicans very cleverly tainted by using it against a very popular president under a completely frivolous and despicable charges. now, the dems are afraid to bring impeachment out against a despised criminal in the white house for real crimes and misdemeanors because "it is a painful exercise that hurts america." pure b.s., of course, but that's how it plays out.
still, if you start with the presumption that the prez can just ignore whatever congress passes than the entire american political experiment has failed and we might just as well accept dictatorship.
the secret, my friends, is the primaries. that means throwing support (and money [and votes]) to progressive candidates within the democratic party. 'coz there aren't any in the republican party, and third parties won't get there fast enough. too much media to get through.
imagine, though, if kucinich wins the primary. or even finishes in the top three.
that would be difficult for the powers to be to ignore.
gotta go, folks.
i'm sure you'll all figure it out and have the whole thing solved by the time i come back.
see ya.
Democrats still haven't figured out how to avoid the "weak on defense" smear, which in and of itself reveals a level of ineptitude that goes all the way up. How a redneck ignoramous like Bush ever put them in such a weak and defensive posture will be something historians will ponder for a very long time. Those with good ideas? Cowering and afraid. Those with bad, un-American ideas? Bold and courageous.
I'm selling bracelets and ribbons in protest!
Who wants to buy some to show that you really REALLY care?
:P
Oh great, I sent Nancy Pelosi an email before I learned of the update saying the NYT article was misleading. Here's what I wrote, I'd like feedback on whether it was appropriate or not and how it can be more effective. No one ever taught me how to write letters to my representatives so it's time to learn!
----
Dear Honorable Nancy Pelosi,
I urge you and everyone else in congress not to renew the August 2007 Protect America Act, which impedes on American's Fourth Amendment rights. The NSA and other parties must not be given broad authority to listen to conversations of Americans at any time no matter who is on the other end, without proper warrants. The Fourth Amendment of the Bill of Rights gives us the right to privacy.
Do not listen to those who try to scare you or your colleagues by calling you "soft on terror". If the new FISA bill passes allowing broad surveillance without individual warrants, people will start calling the Democratic Party "soft on America". Please keep America strong by upholding the peoples' rights.
Sincerely,
----
I'll vote for any progressive challenger over any incumbent. Definitely had enough of these clowns. Thinking of running for congress? Do it. How can you lose?
Democracy for America has a program where it's supporting primary challengers against Bush-Dog "Democrats". This won't fix the problem immediately, but we really do need to start weeding out these curs so that the we can start getting things done in '08.
the new york times "misleading"? no.
Paul in LA @ 83:
That is not ThinkProgress' opinion of the Bill; it is a re-printing of the Pelosi prepared summary of the Bill. The full Bill has not been widely circulated yet.
Fiver @ 148: Very good point and observation. Until the "new" FISA proposed Bill
is "in print", speculations as to what is actually contained thereis is just that..."speculation".
Right now, the American people are stupid enough to vote for a
Republican candidate who will continue Bush's policies.
People say they're appalled, but they're not.
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