CNBC GOP Debate: McCain's Economic Revolution
By Nicole Belle Tuesday Oct 09, 2007 5:26pm
Download | play QT later (h/t Scarce)
With all the focus on whether Fred Thompson would be able to stay awake for the entire debate, this little exchange between Chris Matthews and John McCain flew under many a radar, but it was a WTF? moment for me.
Chris Matthews addresses a question about the shrinking middle class to McCain:
Let me ask Senator McCain, you know, when a lot of us grew up, in the late '50s and early '60s, a young guy could come out of high school, marry his girlfriend from school, get a job at a big industrial plant making planes or making subways, and provide for a family with a middle-class income and his spouse wouldn't have to work.
Will we ever go back to that world again?
A legitimate question to ask of a Republican considering how poorly the economy has done in terms of real wages and household income, especially in Dearborn, Michigan, on the eve of the announcement of a UAW strike against GM. McCain's response?
I'd like to say yes, Chris, but I think we are in the midst of a revolution that we haven't seen since the industrial revolution. A lot of people don't know that 50,000 Americans now make their living off eBay.
Um, huh? So 50,000 people selling stuff online now constitutes an economic revolution? And how does that address the vanishing middle class? McCain goes on...but also derails the question...Some of what he says makes sense in some aspects, but then he starts treading into Democratic economic territory by trashing defense spending. John, John, John...how are you gonna appeal to the base by cutting defense spending?
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Someone do the math - 50,000 people out of 300,000,000. Some revolution.
fiver @ 1:
Exactly what I was going to say. That's 1 in 6,000 people.
Roughly the same odds, I believe, of dying in a car accident.
"Making a living" on Ebay, or trying to buy food?
I'll bet the $15 I spent on a Pyrex coffee pot didn't go far.
ebay The world's largest yardsale.
Well, far be it for me to defend Mc Cain- he's a buffoon. But it would seem she was trying to get at the fact that workplaces, like those of a big industrial plant, have changed: people can make a living sitting in front of their computer, working in a virtual workplace. I believe that is what he was getting at.
"And besides the EBay miracle more than half a million folks make their living dumpster diving. Alumimun cans are a gold mine waiting to happen."
Boy, that Republican shill Meg Whitman (Ebay CEO) seems to get the bigtime props for her site from the GOP. Selling on Ebay is not any more legitimate of a job than working some crap min wage job.
Cheney pulled this crap as well. I ask them this (and I have friends who own a decent business that sells on Ebay and Amazon)...there are 200,000 or so sellers on Ebay. Of those, maybe 1% make a killing and 5% eke out a living. Where do they get 50K?
phlounder @ 6:
Particularly in MI, where the bottle return is $0.10.
Currently offered for sale on eBay: John McCain's political future.
Price: $11.99
Number of bids: 0
Senator McCain, it is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.
What a dingbat. Who wants to take a guess at how many of those 50,000 are either (1) retired, or, (2) not the primary income provider for their household, or, (3) living at or below the poverty level.
In other news, on NBC Nightly News tonight Brian Williams reported Jimmy Carter called Dick Cheney a militant and a disaster for this country.
Talk about calling a spade a spade.
I wouldn't call it an economic revolution, but rather, an economic reality. Seems like this country no longer makes things....it simply consults and outsources.
Sadly, the US could be facing a SERIOUS decline. Out of control deficits....not one (Afganistan), not two (Iraq), but possibly three wars (Iran) to pay for....crumbling infrastructure....an evaporating middle class....and a dumbed down population.
How does that add up to the US remaining the world's lone superpower?
I doubt anybody will make a best offer either...
Yea McIdiot, they selling their stuff to pay the rent.
Geez, what a moron.
Let me ask Senator McCain, you know, when a lot of us grew up, in the late ’50s and early ’60s, a young guy could come out of high school, marry his girlfriend from school, get a job at a big industrial plant making planes or making subways, and provide for a family with a middle-class income and his spouse wouldn’t have to work.
Yep. I know quite a few people who barely graduated and are know making subways. They can be pretty tasty, too.
I understand McCain also pined for zero percent interest rates.
How long before one of the punditocracy stumbles on the realization that a manistream GOP presidential candidate is INSANE?
So if eBay existed during the 20's, then the Great Depression would not have happened? We would have kept the economy going by having everyone sell knick-knacks to each other?
No real products = no real economy.
The Straight Over the Cliff Express.
I'd like to say cheers to McCain for saying we need to cut defense spending. You cut that 500 billion a year budget in half and our schools instantly get better and universal healthcare becomes all the more viable.
However, if the right wanted to call Kerry a flip-flopper in '04, this puts McCain on the long list of GOP candidates who are masters at it. He supports the war, and specifically, the surge, but he wants to cut defense spending? He's one of the biggest Bush apologists but condemns torture. That's all these numbnuts are about. He'd do better if he just stuck to his guns and called the wingnuts what they are instead of defending them all the time.
My beloved late aunt, in her declining years, lived off what she could earn selling off her belongings on eBay. Gone are her Oscar statuette and the gown she wore to collect it in. I never knew about this when it was going on, or I would have bought them both--the gown fit me perfectly. She's passed away now, so she's not counted in McCain's 50K, I guess. So sad.
Thanks Senator, spoken like a man who hasn't looked for a job in a loooooooonnnnnggggg time.
The Populist @ 13:
Buy it now for: $6.00
Free shipping!
I realize that I'm rather insulated, basically homebound with a chronic illness, and also living in Chapel Hill. But I recently returned to my former home in upstate NY, and I heard stories about bankruptcies, small business closings, and the UAW strike.
Unfortunately, I was stunned to hear that it's the fault of the liberals. We may be almost as clueless--within our better education-- as the republicans.
If people turn to Ebay, and then fail at that, they'll blame us for that too.
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"...A lot of people don’t know that 50,000 Americans now make their living off eBay..."
Yeah, well duh!! I'd say there's helluvalot more than that!! And a few make their living ON eBay, as well. So what's your point, Captain Obvious!?!
A lot of people don’t know that 50,000 Americans now make their living off eBay.
Yes they are selling their furniture to buy food.
Translation: Poor people are only poor because they deserve it. If they weren't stupid and/or lazy they would be able to find a way to become rich in this counrty. Look at George W. Bush, Paris Hilton, Mrs. Kenneth Lay, etc.
OT
Ann Coulter was on the Tucker Carlson show less than an hour ago and accused John Edwards of having an 18 month affair.
I haven't found any details yet anywhere on google but I'm sure someone's going to respond to this. Wanted ya'll to know incase someone grabs the video of her saying it.
patthemonkey @ 21:
I guess thats the perk you get from drinking a glass of ethanol a day..
BJ @ 28:
saw that and wondered about this..Mann said it was breaking all over the wires and mocked Lizzy.
BJ @ 28:
http://www.nationalenquirer.com/john_edwards_cheating_scandal/celebrity/...
Another Council on Foreign Relations puppet gets outed. Big deal.
true @ 24:
Uh, if that's an internet poll, you can be sure that the rON pAUL r0B0TZ have been hard at work trying to pump this lightweight's numbers. (Warning, PDF's linked ahead) Reading actual polls taken by actual people, you can see that Ron Paul barely tracks the public's attention at all.
Sorry, but the guy is a nobody. The GOP isn't quite through stomping over a cliff yet.
Andy @ 30:
Christ.
I don't always agree with him, but they actually seem to be nice people and don't deserve this shit.
McCain: Yes, if we can get women to go back to where they belong, and give men back all the jobs it's very possible a family can have a Ward and June Cleaver lifestyle.
I listened to the man and I can honestly say I have absolutely no idea what he is talking about.
It sounds like a rambling monotone.
Real tasty joke about the bears though. Ick.
hadenuf @ 33:
She was pig a pig in sheet grinning ear to ear..she hates the edwards and would like nothing more for him to go down in flames...
This better be true cause she flat out called it an 18 month affair and there is a tape of her saying it.
I find this response insane, if you practice medicine, you need to pass a medical exam, if you want to drive a truck you need you need to pass a driving test. but to be a politician? what a racket, you don't even need to pass an I.Q. test? YEA... and this is the same ASS H*LE who said lets bomb bomb bomb Iran? military waste, what a joke! i think this guy-looks more and more like an idiot... as time passes. we don't need terrorist to take us down, the idiots that are calling policy, are doing that all by themselves! I guess it's a Karma thing with the good 'ol U.S.A. hold on to your hat!
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Ok..on the affair...Her breaking news source was the the National Enquirer and it's plastered on Mann's site.
Edwards and the "affair"...as reported in the "National Inquirer"...Let's see, as I recall
that particular publications has a factual/accuracy percentage of something like 42
percent as to articles it puts into published form....So,until proven (which will most likely boil down to her word against his word), this is in my opinion a non-story..and probably one
that is fictional. Time will tell.
david burke @ 37:
Here's the ladder.
Born into money
Stanford or Yale or Oxford
Politics
Run for President
Fox News
Grave
What McCain doesn't know is that for those 50,000 Americans selling on ebay, there's 500,000 Nigerians on ebay ready to pay more than double for your items.
Say, does Ron Paul still believe the Federal Reserve should be abolished and management of the US currency returned to private banks?
If so, what nation would he prefer to manage the dollar, Holland or China?
true @ 38:
Andy @ 39:
She's a sick puppy, that one.
The only remarkable thing the Enquirer has ever done was scooping the rest of the world on the H. pylori bacteria that causes stomach ulcers.
"John, John, John…how are you gonna appeal to the base by cutting defense spending?"
obviously by buying stuff for the pentagon on ebay!
btw, there are miles of videotape of the coultergeist saying libelous things that have never gotten her skinny tits caught in any wringer. why expect this latest to cause her any trouble?
What kind of health insurance does Ebay provide?
The only revolution is no one wants to buy worthless U.S. paper debt anymore.
Got it figured out now?
http://news4florida.tripod.com/indexfraud.html
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Symon @ 47:
LOL -- good point. He also failed to mention that you can't get prescription drugs or replacement organs on Ebay.
True @50: Far be it for you or anyone to label me a "clinton troll"...NOT accurate by a long
shot. The point I was attempting to make is that the numbers you supplied in the two polls
are not by a long shot representative of the number of registered voters...as someone
implied by "WashingtonStateBlue" @ 51. I have indeed listened to most of the debates,
and cannot disagree w/you that R. Paul is, amongest those 11 Repig candidates, the
only one who has somewhat a handle on several of the more important issues...war in
Iraq/wiretapping...but on other issues he is standing alone, so the reality is that without
the support of the MSM, he is most assuredly "out of luck" as to receiving the Repig
nomination...Facts/reality are sometime hard to accept, but....."that's all folks"
L.A. Confidential @ 49:
Seriously. This is what we are up against.
Grand Bushonian Fraud
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True @ 57: No disrespect intended, but R. Paul getting the nominations is as likely
as it is for you to buy the Brookland Bridge in N.Y. at a cheap, cheap price.
Doggiebobo...
no offense taken!
i probably would have believed you 6 months ago, but i have seen what has happened and the core constitutional base of the GOP is really, really upset about how the entire party has been hijacked by the Military Industrial Complex, Energy, and the Neocons. Similar to what has now happened in to the Democratic Party. I also mean no disrespect, but if you think that the MSM is so dang powerful, why are you hanging on this progressive blog that acts as a check and balance for the now corrupt mainstream media?
true @ 58:
I call B.S. "The core constitutional base of the GOP" voted nearly unanimously for Bush - twice. Trying to distance yourselves now is not going to fool anyone who isn't a fool already (like the core constitutional base of the GOP).
I used to like this guy, but the more I hear, the less I understand why.
true @ 58:
Why do I hang out here at C&L? Well, because it is the one blogging site that does in fact
justifiably and frequently "attack" the MSM for what it is....BIG business/Corp. controlled
and people like Rupert Murdick need to legally be held accountable for the misinformation/
lies/deceit they continue to spew forth over the radio/tv/print media. To me it is pretty
crystle clear that the MSM has already decided that Hillary and Guiliani are the Dem and
Repig nominees...sad, disgusting and irresponsible, but with their power, they are in fact
a primary source of "news"(?) reporting..and unfortunately much of the viewing/listening
audience is uninformed and/or tooooo lazy to do some homework on their own,consequently
the MSM seems to be the primary power broker; telling me/you/us who is the best candidate.
It's wrong,wrong, wrong, but again, that is the reality of how powerful the MSM is.
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Ron Paul doesn't rise above the margin of error. I am truly sorry but YOU ARE NOT WINNING this argument.
true @ 58:
In fact, so upset that they voted for Bush twice. The core constitutional base of the GOP, odd wording to say the least, is what most people refer to as the 29%ers. While they may have been hijacked, they certainly welcomed the hijackers with open arms, all for the sake of power. They should be upset, sadly there are so likely because they are viewed as crazy.
hadenuf @ 33:
i swear to christ this is a nation of six year olds
Every time I hear that shriveled up old prune say "My Friend.......", all I want to do is kick him in his shriveled up old gonads. He used to make sense. Somewhere down the line he 'drank the kool-aid'. Now he's just another idiot politician. He is right though, there is an economic revolution going on. This nation is experiencing the greatest concentration of wealth into an elite class of people never before seen in it's history. That leads to one of two things, a social revolution or a complete economic crash. Pretty soon somebody besides poor folks are going to have to start paying taxes. Wasn't it Leona Helmsley that said, "Only little people pay taxes"?
Doggiebobo...
I refuse to go quietly into the night. We have 3 American Patriot Candidates and although I love the entertainment of C&L, I believe it is more than that. I believe C&L, ThinkProgress, Raw Story, Media Matters actually make a difference. I mean there is only so much BS the MSM can sling before people sense a fowl odor in the air.
I use the following polls to jusge how many people are still under the "powerful" MSM mind control:
How many people think that Sadam Hussein planned 9/11:
2001: 87% (oct)
2003: 67%
2006: 50%
Last month: 33%
I would say people are waking up.
Dick Cheney already told America the economy is doing great because Americans use eBay as their employment. This is old Republican Talking Points. Brain dead America will buy anything that a Republican says.
@slippytoad 63
I doubt I could win a debate with a follower of Eugene Ionesco's method of argument. But anytime you would like to actually say something besides "you don't have to register..." I welcome a thoughtful conversation about the fate of the union. In the meantime troll all the talking points you want, all people have to do is watch the debates on youtube and judge for yourself. as far as the msm being too powerful. that is a different issue that i am hoping is addressed by sites such as this one.
It is obvious to everyone now that Sen. John McCain was severely disabled when he was in the POW camp. We all know he didn't receive any treatment from the Veteran Administration because well the VA doesn't know how to treat Americas soldiers. Well they do know how to mistreat them.
true @ 67:
It certainly has not taken me(and most intelligent people) 5 plus years to wake up
as to whether S. Hussein/Iraq were actively involved in the 911 attack. Of that
allegedly 33 percent you quote above, you and I know that 29 percent of them
are Faux Noise viewers...never, never to be persuaded otherwise because they are
dumb, ultra conservative, right-wing, war hawk Repigs with their heads up their ass.
true @ 69:
Is it me, or is this person a very special kind of crazy?
Watching KO and John Dean has a new book out:
Broken Government: How Republican Rule Destroyed the Legislative, Executive, and Judicial Branches by John Dean
Blaming cheney and it started with Iran contra.
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all Mccain cares about is bombing Persians and Arabs. He doesn't give a damn about struggling families as long as he can feel butch with a never ending series of wars
getalife @ 73:
Thanks....looks as tho I need to go to the BookStop soon and obtain Dean's book. And,
without reading, I too think that it ALL began back w/the Iran Contra/Ollie North/et.al.
fiasco.
Ron Paul is the new Lyndon LaRouche.
I asked before and got no answer, does Ron Paul still believe the Federal Reserve should be abolished and management of the US currency returned to private banks? If so, which nation's institutions would he prefer to manage the dollar, Holland or China?
koko the talking gorilla @ 77:
A short answer..."YES" R. Paul has indicated that the Fed. Res. Board should be abolished
along w/IRS and other Fed. agencies...
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@Simon, I am a Kucinich troll too!
there are no real conservative blogs. it is like they are run by neo-nazis or something. i have found the progressive blogs most resemble my interests and frustration with MSM. but some of them still live in a GOP/Dem paradigm
@fiver, please investigate every single word. I give this one to you for free:
Obama Changed Position on War Funding-Democratic Presidential Contender Opposed War Funding in 2003 but Has Voted Four Times for Funding in Senate
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=2970930
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And it ain't just constitutional GOPers waking up:
Ron Paul draws more praise from liberals
true @ 80:
So why did I see you posting the same Ron Paul spam here this morning?
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Doggiebobo @ 86, thank you for the clarification. It's funny, I can't seem to get a single Ron Paul booster to answer those important, fundamental questions.
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true @ 69:
You obviously missed my point. I'm not trolling talking points. I'm simply pointing out the facts. If you don't have to register on an internet site like DKos (I AM registered and I know this), you can simply show up at the library or internet cafe, and log a vote from every station. Or keep deleting your internet cache and re-voting. It doesn't track your votes by IP. It tracks them by cookie. Try learning a little bit about technology, and you'll understand better the illusory success of the Ron Paul campaign.
This is not the point. The point is, any butt-reaming asshole can vote in an internet poll. They can be spoofed, spammed, and ballot-stuffed. Polls where physical individuals are asked their opinion show that the public's awareness of Ron Paul does not rise above the margin of error. I linked three of those polls in my original post. Since you persist in not getting it, I will link more.
By the way, I got these by typing "ron paul national polling" into my google search bar. If you think Rasmussen, Gallup, and NBC are not valid sources of polling, I'd like you to give me an example of who IS.
Here's a Gallup poll from July. The money quote:
But here is a massive aggregate of polls from pollster.com. Ron Paul doesn't even APPEAR in these.
So, in internet polls, and especially ones hosted off of HIS OWN SITE, Ron Paul does pretty good. I'm sure an army of skr1pt k1dd13s makes him look great. Maybe he should ask his campaign if they're doing anything fishy before getting all full of himself. And I wouldn't put too much stock in his 5.1 million raised. That only means something if he's got anybody paying attention to him.
My point is, his campaign appears to be the first Spam-based campaign of the Internet Era. If he can rise above the margin of error to get a nomination from the Republican Party I'll be surprised. But if he does, he'll send mainstream voters running for the hills with his whacked out ideas.
@koko
I just wanted to make sure we are clear on this.
The dollar is at the moment owned by private banks!
Dr. Paul wants to eradicate that and put it in the hands of the Citizens of this country.
@slippytoad
I hope this is not a surprise to you, but most of those polls are fixed, whereas $5,000,000 is not.
giuliani gets like 100 people to see him at meetups, RP gets thousands.
they leave his name off of many of those polls.
c'mon look at the money, who owns these companies running the polls. How acan someone that gets 0% get $5,000,000 in less than 3 months?
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@slippytoad...
don't you think the straw polls are better than the internet or corporate polls?
look at the straw poll results and the GOP choice is pretty clear:
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/straw-poll-results/
he beats them like 10-1
Internet Poll: any IP gets a vote. But as things get into the tens of thousands consistently in over 50 polls, it looks like something other than bots.
Gallup/corporate polls: controlled by powerful corporations, huge conflicts of interest, with no oversight and has usually less than 1,000
Straw Polls: pollsters are residents of the state and registered for the party and show up in person.
He is so clear a winner of the straw polls it is a little ridiculous that the MSM is still saying his followers are fake.
Short version of McCain's comment about eBay being a source of employment:
"Work smarter, not harder."
The same bromide you get when your boss gives you an impossible task.
true says: Dr. Paul wants to eradicate that and put it in the hands of the Citizens of this country.
How does he intend to do that? Foreigners currently own about 40 percent of outstanding Treasury securities. What will be the consequences of abandoning a sovereign currency?
I calls it like I sees it, and in my experience, Ron Paul boosters don't even know what they Fed does. Moreover, as a group they are unable to articulate their own reasons for supporting Ron Paul, other than touchy-feelie phrases like "he's the kind of guy who talks my language" etc., and they are equally unable to articulate his platform, other than empty generalities.
That kind of personality-based voting is what brought us George W. Bush. Get a clue.
True: Suggest you "give it up". You are not preaching to the choir nor are you going to
be successful in persuading me(and others on this thread) that R. Paul has any possibility
of being successful in gaining the Repig Party nomination. I do, however, give you credit
for "beating his drum"...persistency is in fact a virtue, but "No Way Jose". Good luck and
good night..
Check him out explaining how we all have been Neo-Conned. Ever see Edwards or Obama give a speech like this?
I mean look, if you remove the corporate BS, RP would have already won the nomination of GOP and theothers would have bowed out.
And on the other side, Obama would have won with Kucinich in 2nd (at the moment I think this is the case-Obama brings many people together).
But all MSM talks about is Clinton/Giuliani. It is a sick joke.
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@koko...
our currency is not sovereign. it is owned by the same entities that own the EU central bank. the plan is to bust the dollar so that we will be forced to accept a new currency like the Euro (you will see it happening I do not need to convince anyone). Vincente Fox even talks about it on Larry King just go to 41:09 to see that the plan is to replace the dollar.
As far as paying off the debt, well we can save about a trillion a year from a humble foreign policy. I doubt any other candidate understands the economic issues like RP.
Good night doggiebobo
slippytoad, you still have not addressed the issue of him being like 10 to 1 favorite over the others in the straw polls.
Or how he came up with over $5,000,000 (112% increase where all other GOP candidates contributions went down).
How come McCain gets 50x more TV than RP and he has less money, less internet poll wins, less straw poll wins, and he makes absolutely no sense?
He didn't even mention the biggest waste of money in the cheney/bush administration - the Iraq Conquest and Occupation (aka the initial salvo in the New Crusades).
Sure, mccain admits a failure to control spending, but he, as does every other repuke, ignores the f**king ONE TRILLION dollar elephant sitting in the corner of the White House oval office.
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Have you ever noticed that the problem with American manufacturing is always the employee benefits and never the $500,000,000 salaries of the executive management, not to mention the "Golden Parachutes" after they retire? Have you noticed that "Executive Pay", regardless of a corporations profit, never declines...and that is before they cook the books.
Symon@84, don't remember. but i alweays promote RP and DK everywhere. You ever see me not praising DK? This was the greatest moment ever!
Made me proud to be an American.
I think part of the problem is that we do not produce physical goods anymore here in this country. What we do, when we work, is perform services. Serve burgers, serve customers at wal-mart, do tax returns, be doctors and nurses. So the value of what is done has no item of value tied to it. Is this clear enuf? I think it also blurs productivity because customer service is subjective. It's quality is only measurable by a person's opinion. The service does not change hands but once. I don't think that it necessary that this country return to a manufacturing-based economy; We must press forward, not back. We need to separate the value of the service from the product being served. Burger flippers should not be paid according to the price of the burger. This is old economy thinking applied to new economy work.
My only idea right now to help improve these situations is to: 1. Restructure what is being taught in our schools to help prepare people for work and life instead of more schooling. Push more math and science in lower grades. Accelerate learning. 2. Strengthen funding and power of the Dept of Labor and NLRB. Help them to fight for worker's rights and coordinate them with the Dept of Education to help workers be more prepared for what is required of them in the job market.
EP3
Many of your points are valid; however, without a manufacturing base these tangible goods are imported, which has caused the huge trade deficit over the past 10 years. At some point the foreign banks will call the "markers" i.e., give me something tangible in return, or no longer accept the greenback. As Ron Paul recently said in an interview, it is quite possible that the dollar could reach "absolute zero".
Animadverto says: As Ron Paul recently said in an interview, it is quite possible that the dollar could reach “absolute zero”.
Whaaat? What the heck does that mean, will 1 US dollar will trade for zero Chinese yuan? That's idiocy. Please explain what Ron Paul means when he says "the dollar could reach 'absolute zero'."
McCain has become an insufferably crazy old hawk. Only credit I give him is that he's at least not a chickenhawk like the rest of the GOP candidates.
Thanks site monitors for deleting the Ron Paul pumpers that try to turn every thread into a Ron Paul ad. They're getting real old.
What was the credit crunch that occurred in mid-summer, the mortgage debacle, and exists still today, yet not reported on by the media? They would like you to think that it has gone away. It has not. When foreclosures started to rise in the states, the investors, many international governments, realized that they were holding (numbers vary) one plus "trillions" in US Mortgage Collateralized Obligations, AKA Mortgage Back Securities and Collateralized Debt Obligations. They stopped buying these instruments. What is the greenback? While it is not a Collateralized Debt Obligation, it is not that much different. It is "Fiat Currency" back by nothing. Not entirely true, the Greenback is back by the Tax Receipts of the US Citizen; however, the "Debt" at this point has reach such a "Peak" that the tax receipts no longer cover even the interest payments on the debt of the currency. This is why the Fed stopped reporting the M3 index factor is early summer. The index measures the "Quantity" of money in circulation. It has reach a point that the money to pay for the debt is being printed out of thin air. Economics 101 - what happens when there is too much of a commodity? The value goes down.
"If the American people ever allow the banks to control the issuance of their currency...the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property, until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered".
Thomas Jefferson
"I sincerely believe the banking institutions having the issuing power of money, are more dangerous to liberty than standing armies".
Thomas Jefferson
"Paper is poverty...it is only the ghost of money, and not money itself".
Thomas Jefferson
"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning".
Henry Ford
One last good quote for the road...
"In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value...
...Gold stands as a protector of property rights".
Alan Greenspan
Gold and Economic Freedom
http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=202415&Disp=126&Tr...
"Once they realize the American people have awakened to the con game that's been going on - I think those people running the banking and monetary system aren't going to be too happy," Paul told the Alex Jones Show on Friday. The Texas Congressman forecasts that if current policies are prolonged, the dollar could crash all the way to nothing and be forced to start over. "If Bush is foolish enough to start bombing Iran, that might precipitate such a crisis as oil going to $200 dollars a barrel and really dampening the enthusiasm of the whole dollar," said Paul. "If they continue what they're doing, it's gonna go to zero, we're gonna have runaway inflation, all paper currencies eventually self-destruct and are ruined, and we're in uncharted waters right now - this is the first time in the history of man you've had no solid currencies around the world and this has been going on for 35 years." Paul agreed that elitists would seize upon a global depression by posing as the saviors and offering more control, police state and big government as the solution. "This was the whole thing that started in the last depression," said Paul, "Scare people to death instead of blaming the Federal Reserve for the depression and the financial bubble of the 20's, they said 'well capitalism failed, it was that stupid gold standard', therefore we have to have welfare and of course everything they did prolonged the depression." Paul said his warnings about the impending collapse of the U.S. economy, which stretch back years, were helping his campaign gain credibility due to the unfolding crises in the market and the credit crunch. "When the people understand how the Fed screws up the economy and causes all the bubbles and all the changes that have to come from that, I'm getting a lot more calls," said Paul.
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Dr. Paul says he needs to reign in the Fed before they collapse the dollar wheras McCain says that he does not understand these things.
50,000 people won't be making a very good living living, selling old McCain For President buttons. Nor will they sell like hotcakes in that Bahgdad market he walked through!
The Texas Congressman forecasts that if current policies are prolonged, the dollar could crash all the way to nothing and be forced to start over.
That's gibberish. Ron Paul is a fool's fool.
koko the talking gorilla @ 113:
Then based on your comment, so is Thomas Jefferson, Heny Ford and Alan Greenspan? I guess we will all find out soon enough.
Animadverto Says: Then based on your comment, so is Thomas Jefferson, Heny Ford and Alan Greenspan?
Why, did Thomas Jefferson, Heny Ford, and Alan Greenspan say "the dollar could crash all the way to nothing and be forced to start over"?
Of course not. They weren't fools, and they didn't speak in gibberish.
I yield to your superior understanding. Even I won't challenge Dr. Paul, Thomas Jefferson, Henry Ford and Allen Greenspan and my background is economics. I lived in Washington DC for 30 years, worked in the Mortgage Banking Industry for 23 years, was a regulator for 8 of those years, and went toe to toe with a number of Economists and won the battles. Needless to say, winning the battles did not, necessarily, bode well for my career. I was not willing to take my pants down and bend over.
Animadverto @ 110:
Animadverto @ 109:
If this has been said already, I apologize, but GOOD GOD people, it was an example of how the economy has changed. McCain wasn't claiming 50,000 people are the economic revolution, just that they typify the increasing change from a manufacturing based economy to a service based one.
This is just as bad as hammering Bush for using the Mandela analogy.
Please tell me that we don't want our politicians to avoid all use of irony, allegory, metaphor, simile or sarcasm...
How can you tell if it's been a SUCCESSFUL Republican government?
• The treasury is emptied out, and there are no more laws to break.
Animadverto: "my background is economics. I lived in Washington DC for 30 years, worked in the Mortgage Banking Industry for 23 years, was a regulator for 8 of those years, and went toe to toe with a number of Economists and won the battles."
I do not find that remotely credible. If it was true, you wouldn't preach surreal gibberish. Moreover, your method of argument -- cut-n-paste quotes, re-contexted -- is unconvincing and as boring as boilerplate Marxism at its worst.
Also: in my lengthy experience, when people cite their credentials as evidence of the infallibility of their wisdom, it's always because their argument is garbage.
Koko
Perhaps you would like to go toe to toe with me on the "Reverse Yield Curve" and why it exists? You start....
[Groan]. In portfolio theory? A rational investor may well accept a lower nominal return in anticipation of future capital gains. Why, what does "reverse yield curve" mean to you, perfessser?
The last reported Prime rate is: 7.75 %
This has been effective since September 18, 2007
What is the Prime Rate? The Prime Interest Rate is the interest rate charged by banks to their most creditworthy customers (usually the most prominent and stable business customers). The rate is almost always the same amongst major banks. Adjustments to the prime lending rate are made by banks at the same time; although, the prime rate does not adjust on any regular basis. The rates reported below are based upon the prime rates on the first day of each respective month.
The best "no-point", 30 year fixed rate mortgage loan I could find was 6.75%. This is close to "Par".
I hardly consider nominal, lending at interest for one day at 7.75% compared to 30 years at 6.75%. 30 years is a long time to pass up other opportunities with that margin difference.
Who know what could happen between now and 30 years from now?
McCain is just a typical Republican and using the example of 50k making their living on Ebay is absurd. You wouldn't hear him say 50k people are making their living by making jewelry and necklaces and arts and crafts and selling it at weekend craft fairs around the country and on the internet would you? You know why because it doesn't make any kind of point at all.
This is precisely the reason that caused the S & L crisis in the early 80's and why there are no longer Savings and Loans. Perhaps a few left. The "Game" was replaced with Collateralized Debt Obligations. And, the appetite for them has also been satiated.
the middle class is more responible for the economic mess this country is in then any other group in the country.
the middle class wants it's cell phone's big screen tv's gas guzzling hummers suv's and credit card debt sub prime home loans $100 nikes shoes for their little spoiled brat children they make hard on the working family's to get buy.
screw the middle class they are nothing but yuppie right wing republicans
The Prime Interest Rate is the interest rate charged by banks to their most creditworthy customers (usually the most prominent and stable business customers).
Actually, bub, in the real world the Prime Rate is simply the Federal Funds rate +3, while almost all corporate loans are indexed to LIBOR.
If, as you say, your background is Economics, how could you NOT have learned that!?!
You are a phony, and a fool.
Good-night, perfesser.
tony dodd
You are correct on some levels. But...the middle class was sold a wrong bill of goods. They were given financial instruments that encouraged "more debt" and led to believe by the economic pundits that the economy would never falter and that real estate could never decline by for that five to 10% and that there would never be a "National" home price decline. They chose to see reality through rose colored glasses...keep up with the Jones, make a killing on real estate based on false credentials (easy credit). Anyone of rational mind knows that the piper gets paid sooner or later. The tech bubble under Clinton and the housing bubble under Bush were orchestrated by people at very high levels in "Banking".
To get a better handle on this phenomena, called "Rowing the Economy", see this link...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936&q=the+money+...
This is a 3.5 hour video, but it will give you a good understanding of our monetary system. Watch the whole thing.
I feel sorry for the poor graduate student whose dissertation involves the DNA of bears. I also remember that a Proxmire Golden Fleece award was given to a researcher investigating the prostate gland of goats. Work from that study lead to the discovery of prostaglandins and the development of compounds such as ibuprofen, etc
Collateralized Debt Obligations have been satiated. But greed...?
It is greed to do all the talking but not to want to listen at all.
Democritus
Greed is a bottomless pit which exhausts the person in an endless effort to satisfy the need without ever reaching satisfaction.
Erich Fromm
There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed.
Mohandas Gandhi
We did not find it difficult to deal with Bush and his administration, because it is similar to regimes in our countries - both types include many who are full of arrogance and greed.
Osama bin Laden
An intriguing paradox of the 1990s is that it isn't called a decade of greed.
Paul Samuelson
koko the talking gorilla @ 9:
Rudy bids $9.11
Chris’s question to McCain reminded me of Ross Perot’s warning of the “giant sucking sound” relative to the NAFTA Proposal. We are hearing the echos of that sound and people like McCain, and especially those few (who are becoming fewer) who profit the greatest from placing our skilled workers in competition with those willing to work for 50 cents an hour, dare not answer for it would require them to face and talk about what they have created: a situation where, more and more, we produce nothing, rather we move money around for those who do. This is, in effect, the “revolution” McCain is referring to.
Make no mistake about it, wealth (money) is created when something is produced. Period.
A service based economy “services” those who produce. Let me put it another way; a production based economy will support a service based economy at it’s pleasure.
Mass media leads to mass hypnosis
You guys are a bunch of sissies. McCain is right. Go to youtube and check out "did you know 2.0" and learn something about this "revolution" which IS a revolution.
Out side of that...if you think you cant compete with someone in China or India, your a sad little waste. Get an education. And on top of that....
Vote Hillary.
They can't even pretend anymore that tax cuts for the wealthy means more jobs here if they keep outsourcing.
Income taxes are a misnomer anyway. The ones who actually have income coming from rents and investments get all the breaks. The rest of us are paying Wage Taxes.
Economic Crimes in Michigan
Our Eldely are Targeted for felony HMO Hospital Insurance Fraud ( Dumping ) illegally billed for denied Covered Claims ( T42CFR417 ) and forced: fraud by fright T42CFR417 illegal denial of posthospital extended care services, into State Medicaid Program for the Poor.
UAW deal with GM offers fewer health plans ( and one conducting Hospital Dumping of Retirees: Health Alliance Plan Detroit ).
Federal HMO Hospital Insurance Fraud 'DHHS T42CFR417' Adverse determination against Entitled Hospitalized Individuals: Anti-dumping Violation.
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The Free Press, in calling 13 health care providers with operations in Michigan, confirmed that three will be retained as GM's health plans in Michigan. They are Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan and Health Alliance Plan, both based in Detroit, and HealthPlus of Michigan, headquartered in Flint.
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She questioned the selection of Detroit area health plans, saying health care is a highly Regional issue best served by companies that know their areas.
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What the Public Doesn't Know about HMO's and Health Alliance Plan: Hospital Insurance Fraud against Elderly Hospitalized Covered Individuals - DUMPING - to force illegal Region V HCFA State OFIS Medicaid kickback conversions.
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The Region V HCFA Chicago Office had a record high 940 new MSP cases filed in 1998. Contributing to this were PARTNERSHIP Arrangements with ( T18CFR371Crime Federal HMO 'illegal agreement' T42CFR417 Hospital Insurance Fraud: Dumping ) Contractors and U.S. Attorneys in Michigan and Ohio .....Public Fraud
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1998 -- Illegal Agreement with Region V HCFA - MICHIGAN - Michigan Law Requires YOU ( Federally Entitled T42CFR409 Hospitalized Individual ) to complete an internal review with your health plan ( T42CFR417 DHHS Employee 'discharge procedures': Anti-dumping: Anti-kickback Violation - adverse determination illegal denial of Existing OPM 'Federal Hospital Insurance T42CFR409.33' & OPM FEHBP employee: 5CFR890.105 illegal denial of covered claims: Illegal agreement to induce forfiture: T18CFR371Crime to force illegal HCFA State OFIS Medicaid T42CFR409.33 kickback conversions: 'grievance procedure' - misprison of a felony T18CFR286 ) prior to using the external review. The health plan ( Federal HMO ) will give you a final decision within 45 days and will provide an Office of Financial and Insurance Services ( OFIS: T18CFR371Crime: T18CFR286Crime ) Health Care Request for external review form. If your health plan does not provide a decision within the required time frame, you may ( be dead - by criminal denial and termination of posthospital extended care services, misprison of a felony T42CFR417 grievance procedure: actual commission of a felony - used to Force illegal HCFA medicaid kickback conversions ) file for External Review Without the Notice of final Adverse Determination. ( anti-dumping violation $25,000 FELONY for Each Denial T42CFR417 grievance service = adverse determination of Medically Necessary Services ). OFIS misprison of Federal Hospital Insurance Fraud resulting in death of Michigan Citizens with Federal HMO policies FELONY
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1999 OPM FEHBP - Federal HMO Hospital Service Contract Provider - Health Alliance Plan Detroit ( Region V HCFA Chicago ) MI HAP PROVIDERS offers 2,596 personal care physicians (PCP) and 4,901 specialists. HAP’s delivery system includes 45 hospitals ( inducing forfiture: 1998 illegal agreement with Region V HCFA: T42sec417 DHHS & Federal HMO Employee Service: discharge procedures: Grievance Procedure illegal denial of Existing OPM Hospital Extended care Benefits Services -administrative Fraud by Fright - T18CFR Felony dumping ) in southeast Michigan and the Flint area, including 23 major hospital networks ( robbing the Elderly of 401k's and savings accounts to Force Medicaid kickback Conversions - eligibility Poor ), 65 urgent care centers and 765 ancillary providers: Hospital Affiliate Nursing Homes ( Criminally Billing OPM FEHB for criminally Denied T42CFR409.33 Posthospital Extended Care Claims 5CFR890.105, to force HCFA State OFIS Medicaid T42CFR409.33 kickback conversions ),mental health facilities, optical providers, laboratories, durable medical equipment providers,ambulance services and Pharmacy Chains
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T42CFR417 Federal HMO Grievance Service: Misprison of Federal Hospital Insurance Fraud: Anti-dumping & Anti-kickback Violations against Entitled Individuals in Region V HCFA
CITE: 42CFR409.33 Page 187-188 TITLE 42--PUBLIC HEALTH CHAPTER IV--HEALTH CARE FINANCING ADMINISTRATION ( HCFA ) Administers the Medicaid Program,DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES ( DHHS ) OIG is supposed to enforce Anti-dumping violations not conduct it PART 409-- HOSPITAL INSURANCE BENEFITS --Table of Contents Subpart D- Federal -Requirements for Coverage of Posthospital SNF Care Sec. 409.33 Examples of skilled nursing and rehabilitation services.
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According to the Detroit News, Between 1999 & 2001 Michigan's HCFA Medicaid clientele ballooned ( DHHS T42sec417 Adverse Determination: 'HMO grievance service': induced forfiture of existing federal hospital insurance benefits: $25,000.oo FELONY Each T42CFR417 Anti-dumping Violation: to force illegal HCFA State OFIS Medicaid kickback conversions ) to 1.25 million from 1 million, at a cost of ( 25,000.oo Anti-dumping felony each denial T42CFR417 of medically necessary services adverse determination ) approximately $6,000 on each Medicaid Reciepent.
The Detroit News stated according to Paul Rienhart " a Medicaid Expert " in
The State Budget Office of Michigan, says
OFIS & HCFA illegal agreement T18CFR371Crime Public Fraud, Medicaid consumed 8% of Michigan's General Funds in 1998.
OFIS & HCFA illegal agreement T18CFR371Crime Public Fraud , Medicaid will consume 32 % of the General Fund budget by 2004.
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How much of this felony fraud is at the cost of the middle class who are forced to watch thier Parents, who HAVE Insurance, be abused until death from HMO illegal Dumping ?
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Sincerely,
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All ENTITLED Federal Employee Health Beneficiaries & the General Public who are being criminally denied DHHS T42CFR417 Existing ( Federal ) HMO Hospital Insurance Coverage, illegally billed for denied covered extended care claims and Forced into HCFA State HMO Mediciaid Programs for the POOR. Title18CFR1001Crime.
UAW Especially RETIREES DO NOT Agree to Accept HMO Health Alliance Plan Detroit as one of your SERVICE Contract Providers.
Chris Matthews want us to go back to a world when a young guy marries his highschool sweetheart, gets a blue-collar job in an industrial plant making planes and subways (subways??), earning a middle-class income sufficient that his spouse wouldn’t have to work? WTF??
Jeezuz. The question is about as gobsmacking as the answer. Yes, let's all go back to that wonderful world of the fifties where chicks and darkies and the lower classes all knew their place, where Johnny the high school football jock knocks up cheerleader Janie in the back seat of his father's Edsel, abortions being illegal she then pops out 3 kids before the age of 21, they both give up any dreams of a college education while he works in an industrial plant and loses two fingers in a defective machine lathe because paying for safety equipment cuts too deep into shareholder profits, she bakes cookies for the PTA meetings and secretly drinks vodka to get through the days because the only opportunities open to women for any sort of life outside the home are low paying 'women's jobs' like check-out clerks and nurse's aides, they both go slowly stark raving bonkers, loathe the sight of each other, and die old and alone because their three children have all escaped and moved as far away from them as possible. Them good ol' days, y'mean, Chris? Methinks either you're getting senile, or you weren't really there...
Believe me, them weren't the good ol' days. Now is pretty shitty as well, but back to the future sure as hell isn't the solution...
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