What part of history won't they try to re-write?
By John Amato Wednesday Oct 17, 2007 12:19pmYou know I like Captain Ed a lot. He's a nice guy, but Ed...stop it, please. You're actually trying to spin the Nazis over the Republican Party of torture and attack the NY Times. (h/t G. Greenwald)
Many of them -- indeed, most of them -- oppose the Iraq war and especially the interrogation techniques applied by the Bush administration. They rightly remain proud of their record of using softer techniques to get the information they needed to stop the Germans. A few of them took the opportunity to make that clear during the ceremonies in New Jersey that honored their service.
It must be said, however, that they faced a different enemy in a different war. The Germans fought to expand territory through traditional warfare, at least as arrayed against the US and the West. While they conducted sabotage missions in the US through espionage, they did not use terrorist infiltrators to attempt to kill thousands of American civilians. They also did not face religious extremists who believed that death brought them to Allah and 72 waiting virgins for taking out women and children. One can make a case that the civilized techniques of PO Box 1142 worked because their detainees also believed themselves civilized and members of the Western culture.
Ed, the Nazis exterminated at least 6 million Jews (2/3 of the Jewish population in Europe) not to mention homosexuals, Gypsies and disabled people in the most horrible fashion imaginable. They were monsters. What about the millions of Russians that they killed? They thought the Aryan race was supreme and we were cattle! There's a term they used---what was it again? Oh, yea---The Master Race. That's civilized? Are you f*&king serious?
Login or Register to post comments.
Human nature doesn't change. Torture doesn't work, no matter the stakes, no matter the situation. Only a drooling, psychotic simpleton would suggest otherwise.
Preach it, dude. We were indeed, "cattle", and even when this government was formed, we couldn't even muster up being a whole person, but 3/5 of a person. Who came up with that fraction?
Oh, I get it! The NAZIS were "civilized" because they didn't kill any AMERICAN civilians. Gee, thanks for clearing that one up, Special Ed.
Civilized? Methinks the genocide taking place in Iraq since 2003, or easily earlier than that, might disqualify any idea that this is more civilized. I suppose if one means that the Nazis actually put distinctions on their "enemies" you may have some ground there, but just because the "enemy" your extinguishing doesn't easily fall into a stereo-typical category or religion, color- Oh. Wait. They do fall into a category or two. or three- brown, olive-skinned Muslims, Islam, middle-eastern, etc. Nevermind.
I like the part "traditional warfare".
Now think about it. Which would you rather have? A series of bombings around the world and at home that kill, say 7000 americans over 6 years, or a nice traditional war machine that kills 1 million americans (all of whom were civilians before the war started) in less than 4 years?
They WERE better dressed. No? Still doesn't....ah, shucks.
Uh, no he's not. Maybe you need to redefine "nice".
Capt. Ed didn't say the Nazis were civilized. He said they believed they were civilized.
Even so, that doesn't support his point. The radical Muslims also believe themselves civilized. So by Ed's logic, the PO Box 1142 techniques should work on them as well (unless he seriously believes that considering oneself "Western" actually makes a difference).
Admiring Nazis?! Oh boy.
Hitler did it for expansion, the aryan nation and power.
shrub did it for money, oil and power. but mostly money.
That's the only difference I see.
To the Borg's hive-mind history is irrelevant.
Resistance is futile.
When aspects of history are being rewritten, it should come as no surprise that all of it will be re-interpreted by that special class of assholes who respect nothing.
Poor Ed...the farce is strong with this one...dat koolaide be some kick-@ss sh*t!
Godwin
John, thanks for the reality check. Sometimes its so easy to gloss over b..l...t.
Haven't we taken our first million in Iraq yet?
I think what Special Ed is trying to say is that the Nazis were white people, and them Ayrabs ain't. To a Repug like Ed, people who don't look like them and didn't grow up like them aren't necessarily human except perhaps in the biological sense.
But many of the Nazis truly loved their pets and they were Christians 'just like us' and white too. Perhaps Ed could attend a Holocaust conference in Tehran and see what else he can learn to help with his rethinking of how they weren't so bad after all.
offtopic:
Bush is approval rating is at 24 percent!!!!
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN1624620720071017?feedType=RS...
Special Ed... nuff said.
The problem with the "Aryan" theory is that initially it meant all the Indo-European races (how it's referred to now.) Aryan is a group of languages, the ones closest to it now is Farsi and what the Iraqis and Iranians speak.
During the late 19th and early 20th century Helena Petrovna Blavotsky came up with a construct of Aryan, Hyperborean (Britain), Atlantean (Atlantic Ocean) and Lemurian (a continent found variously in the Pacific or Indian oceans) rays of power. She didn't seem to posit them as particular races or not. Since they tend to follow the compass points it seems to follow cardinal point magick under the new guise of her "hidden adepts." Samuel Liddel MacGregor (Mathers) and his student Aleister Crowley also made similar claims. It's a short hop-skip-and a spit from hidden adepts and masters to a master race.
I haven't seen the actual Reuters poll, but the story has more to it in other polls. Congress ranks low, no doubt about it, but Democrats tend to get 10% higher approval ratings than Republicans, and 10% lower disapproval, and lower undecided. So perhaps the Democrats can retake Congress with a higher margin to make deals with republicans unnceccessary to pass bills and resolutions.
However, with numbers this low, it's possible that we're facing a "throw all the bums out" scenario, in which case there's no telling how the Congress could go after an election.
Pat @ 13:
What did God run for?
Yes, it is civilized, since only civilized peoples are capable of genocide.
Tim @ 23:
I prefer ginocide and killing off fifths of Seagrams.
That's actually not quite true. Nazis did land on Long Island (Quogue in the Hamptons) with the intention of committing sabotage. One of their number went straight to the police as soon as he could break away and snitched on them. Hitler, not knowing the full story, concluded that the US police were really on their toes and didn't try again. No, the Nazis did not send terrorist infiltrators, but that doesn't mean they never attempted to do so.
We're only one scandal away from Republicans coming out and saying "The Nazis weren't really so bad, now, were they?" aren't we? Ever since, geez, Abu Gharaib when they started having to justify their "enhanced interrogations"(a term coined by the Nazis), to their faux-outrage at Durbin when he noted that we're using the same techniques that the Nazis were convicted for using, to this.
No wonder they're pissed off at Iran. That Iranian conference of Holocaust deniers reminded everyone that the Nazis were monsters, and that there are conservative forces in the world who wish us to think otherwise.
Scott @ 26:
i think you're right. all they know about nazis is what they saw on "hogan's heros". republicans: poor, pathetic, dumb bastards.
To all those who support the use of torture to extract information, I suppose you believe that the tens of thousands of Europeans tortured and executed from the Dark Ages through the Renaissance really were witches.
Come to think of it... I think republicans might be witches too.
The only difference between Nazi "sabotage" and Al Qaeda "terrorism" is that the inept Nazis sent here failed. The Nazis certainly showed no reluctance to use terrorism.
DR-TV @ 28:
I'm a Republican?
As Frank Rich stated in his last column:
As Andrew Sullivan, once a Bush cheerleader, observed last weekend in The Sunday Times of London, America’s “enhanced interrogation” techniques have a grotesque provenance: “Verschärfte Vernehmung, enhanced or intensified interrogation, was the exact term innovated by the Gestapo to describe what became known as the ‘third degree.’ It left no marks. It included hypothermia, stress positions and long-time sleep deprivation.”
Hence the strange conflict facing the wingers in facing this issue.
The Nazi did kill and torture thousands of people in France, Belgium and other countries they occupied. They didn't torture and kill Americans because they didn't occupy America. Their activities weren't a secret though. Most Americans didn't know about the death camps until late in the war, but they did know about their activities in the occupied countries.
If you doubt that, just get a hold of some of the propaganda films Hollywood was cranking out during the war. As is usual during a war, we were demonizing both the Nazis and the Japanese, so if they didn't actually do something, we made it up. There was no way that anyone in America believed that either the Germans or the Japanese were human during the war, so we certainly didn't think they were civilized.
DR-TV @ 28:
Sorry, the witches I know are definitely NOT Republicans.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it a fact that the Nazi's carried the pop culture stereotype as devotees of torture? The whole "Ve haf vays off making you talk" routine can still be used without having to explain the Nazi connection and the war has been over for over 60 years.
How would Special Ed explain that one, I wonder, when the Master Race tortured captured Americans and Brits (and everybody else, for that matter) for information? I'll give him a hint to start his dissertation. Cultures that employ torture can only justify it to themselves when they are convinced that the recipient of this special treatment is not human or is less than human.
Seems to me that Eddie boy may have violated Godwin's Law by invoking the Nazis to justify the practices of the Bush administration.
Rich @ 25:
I've heard they tried to hit oil facilities in the gulf coast with special forces units on subs too.
In 1938, the Nazis had the most advanced and powerful military on Earth while the military in the US was still had Calvary on horseback. After Pearl harbor, however, we quickly upgraded or military to an even footing with them.
The enemies we face now are generally low tech with no standing army. They're dangerous, certainly, but lack the military might of the Nazis, the Imperial Japanese or the Soviet Union. In fact, the overall casualties inflicted by Islamic Terrorists is a small fraction of the other enemies America has faced in the past.
The US has many times the destructive capacity the terrorists could ever dream of. At worst, the Terrorists could vaporize a few cities or unleash a virus which might kill tens of millions more. The US, with its thousands of Nuclear weapons, could wipe the Middle East off the face of Earth in less than an hour. (If Bin Louden and his ilk had that kind of power, we wouldn’t still be a United States)
Unlike WWII or the Cold War, there is no equal parity between the two sides in terms of military capacity.
And even the Nazi mastermind weren't tortured by the US.
Plus, information derived by torture is unreliable anyway.
John Amato is re-writing history here...to the extent that he is not recognizing a key distinction: not all Germans who fought in WWII were Nazis.
It is a matter of historical record that the Wehrmacht despised the SS...and Hitler...and the High Command itself had not one but two fully-implemented plans to arrest Hitler and the entire SS in the 1930s.
However, both times the "Peace at any cost" governments of France and England backed down - in the Rhineland and the Ruhr - and the moment passed.
The assassination attempt of Hitler late in the war was similarly embarked upon by members of the German military who despised Hitler and Nazism. Erwin Rommel's - the famous Desert Fox - connection to the assassins led to his forced suicide.
Many German officers and soldiers believed in civilization and honor -- and were disposed of the SS accordingly. The prisoners Captain Ed is speaking of were mostly submariners and scientists.
Yes, these may have been the enemy, but they were not the SS nor the suicidal monsters of bin Laden.
Perhaps you folks could read a little history yourselves, hmmmm?
What is there alternative to rewriting history? It's admiting that they have authored, enabled or participating in great evils, making them as evil as the nazis. They would rather contiune the evil, continue justifiyng the evil, than choose the path of honest self-examination. I think that's one of the reasons this Congress is so abjectly craven, there are just to many who have been part of the evil and will not honestly examine themselves and will refuse to accept that hthey have crime and atrocity on their hands. They will continue to capitulate to Bush as a way to both justify themselves and to avoid responsibility for their own acts. I think that is just one of the reason that all these incumbants of both parties need to be tossed out of office on their asses at the earliest election cycles, or impeached. It's the only sure way to break this self-perpetuating cycle of evil.
MarloweC @ 37:
Just as the vast majority of Muslims in the Middle East are not adherents of Wahabist teachings, and are capable of peaceful coexistence with other faiths.
If you had read some history, you would know that the Arab world preserved knowledge in science and mathematics when Europe was wallowing through the Dark Ages.
Culture is not exclusively European/Western.
The thing I find interesting about history is:
Once upon a time people were afraid of diseases
Diseases that could be spread by enemies
By attacking certain public utilities
These enemies were secretive and worked in small groups.
Were these Al Qaeda "sleeper-cells?"
No, these were typical European witch hunt charges.
MarloweC @ 37:
If they're suicidal monsters it won't do any good to torture them, hmmmm?
Actually WWII was won to a great extent by the Underground
That was organized by De Gaulle's Resistance movement after their split from Vichy.
Interesting thing but the Islamic controlled land of al-Andulus, founded in large measure by Ibn Abd el Hekem had Islamic, Jewish and Christian neighbors working together. It was only after extremist from Northern Africa and the Vatican insisted this was polluting their faith, did the land go into a slow decline.
I'm trying to read less history to catch up on my Capt. Underpants series.
Nazis Good? Muslims Bad?
Besides this obvious flaw in thinking i really get angry when they start with "We are civilized and they are not!" If i am not mistaken the Nazis were part of "Western Civilization." Take a long deep look at our current administration. This is just an attempt to dehumanize people so we can kill and torture them. The Japanese called Allied POW's "logs" during World War II so it would be easier to kill them. This is the oldest trick in the book and i ain't buyin'.
ysbaddaden @ 42:
I am sure they contributed but the Russians won the war by throwing 12 million soldiers into the mechanized meat grinder of the Nazis. When Staligrad was over and the Germans lost that was the end of the war.
Two words: Operation Pastorius. Look it up.
xoites defends Constitution @ 46:
The Siege of Leningrad was particularly brutal.
However, the Underground was big into sabotage, passing on information and escape routes. It was less an active war than a surreptitious, clandestine war.
Ummm...syrup....(drool)
No doubt someone will say this is anti-Semitic, and obviously actions speak louder than words (and in the case of Nazi Germany, those actions were as loud as can be), but is "The Master Race" really any more obnoxious than "The Chosen People"? As language, the answer is no. The only reason "The Master Race" seems worse is because of the actions that were taken in its name. Not that actions taken in the name of "The Chosen People," like the eviction and continuing oppression of the Palestinians, are excusable, they just don't approach the actions taken in the name of "The Master Race."
Eli Stephens @ 49:
Not all Jews are Israeli and even many Israelis disagree with their country's actions. Every religion claims it is the "chosen" one. If it didn't it would not have a following.
And let's not forget what the Japanese had been doing to the Chinese and other neighboring countries they were conquering. As for suicide bombers, ever heard of Kamikazi? What were they, just bad pilots? Anyone who tries to say that today's threat is on par (or even worse) with what we faced during WWII is nothing more than a total jackass.
ysbaddaden @ 24:
Weak, dude. If you're going to off good 'ol soldiers, at least make them Tanqueray!
Navy Vet @ 52:
I can't imagine a worse sick than a gin sick, and I've had cancer! I learned from watching my mom after one particular Democratic blow-out. And now I know why they call 'em blow outs, too!
George Arndt @ 36:
Actually, the Germans had horse cavalry as well in the early war years; and their army was never as "mechanized" as popular thought would have you believe. Only a small proportion of the units were fully motorized, but those units saw the lion's share of the fighting. And that is what has been passed along in the popular history, the myth that the German Army of 1939-1945 was the best mechanized army in the world. It wasn't...it was just very well trained in combined arms operations, something the other nations, US included, had not spent much time on.
Ed trying to get "street cred" with the stormfront wing of his party
Captain Ed: "their detainees also believed themselves civilized and members of the Western culture."
Sure they did. Here are some examples of how the Nazi war criminals showed that belief:
At Auschwitz, "Twin girls were forced to have sex with twin boys to see if twin children would result. Efforts were made to surgically change the gender of other twins. One day, (Josef) Mengele brought chocolates and extra clothing for twin brothers, Guido and Nino, both popular with medical personnel. A few days later the twins were brought back, their wrists and backs sewn together in a crude parody of Siamese twins, their veins interconnected and their surgical wounds clearly festering. The boys screamed all night until their mother managed to end their agony with a fatal injection of morphine."
At Buchenwald, "Horrible punishments were everyday occurrences. Many were hung from their wrists with their hands tied behind their backs, thus painfully tearing arms from their sockets. Weakened inmates who did not die quickly enough were bludgeoned with a large blood-encrusted club. Russian POWs were systematically shot in the back of the neck through a small hole as they stood at the height-measuring wall."
How dare the indescribably ignorant "Captain" dishonor the wisdom and decency of the men of PO Box 1142, all in the service of his Dear Leader George W? He needs to apologize for the depravity and stupidity of his writings. Nazi war criminals were not "civilized," and nothing the ridiculous "Captain" writes can justify American torture.
Source for the quotes above about Auschwitz and Buchenwald: Edwin Black, "War Against the Weak: Eugenics and America's Campaign to Create a Master Race," Thunder's Mount Press, New York.
Xoites @50: "Every religion claims it is the “chosen” one."
No. Some religions (like Catholicism) claim they are the only way to get into heaven (that's not true of all religions). But, as far as I know, only Judaism refers to its members as "The Chosen People."
thank you for not forgetting the gays!!! guess where that (pink) triangle came from people?
Just a heads up: Among certain people, using the word "gypsy" is analogous to the N-word. "Rom" or "Romani" (which, like in other indigenous languages, simply means "people") is preferred. "Gypsy" is the derogatory name assigned by majority populations.
Not to mention, they believed everyone, especially Slavs and Russians, everyone east of Germany was sub-human. They conducted biological experiements on them, while they were still living, no anesthetic used. But they were damn fine little gentlemen-- oh geez.
Show me someone that calls themself a chosen person and I'll show you and asshole. (I'm stealing from Bill Maher's lapel pin comment here.) ;)
Suzy @ 60:
I did not know that. If I say Romani, will people know who I'm talking about? I had run-ins with Romani in Vienna and Rome (and other places). Everyone understood when I used the "G" word.
DR-TV @ 28:
No, but I bet most of them confessed to being witches. The Republicans keep touting the information gained by using torture, but it seems that torture is being used more frequently to extract confessions. They are using torture to circumvent the legal system. That's not national security, that's perverting justice.
Although Bush is at 24%, he's still winning, and like it or not IS relevant because of that. His civil war and Iraqi holocaust, as intended, is 100% successful, he still vetoes anything that will help the American people especially poor ones (as the S-Chip fiasco), who can still get Congress to deny the Armenian genocide, still supports the Israeli genocide against the Palestinians. He retains the power for the things that he wants to stay the course.The Supreme Court he chose is behaving itself in denying the Constitution as intended. He retains the ability to have the Republican congressmen line up behind him. He IS winning.
Edwin @ 63:
People may not know who you're talking about if you say Romani, but that is what an educator might call a "teachable moment." Besides, everyone understands what is meant by the "N" word, but that doesn't mean one should use it. If you want to learn a bit more about the subject, the following website would be a good starting point. http://voiceofroma.com/culture/gyp_vs_rom.shtml
Suzy @ 60:
ahhhhhhhhh, PC, what about math? 6 mil? I thought we adjusted that number down a bit? no one beats up on Stalin, he killed a few himself, actually his Zionist infested Secret Police did, but that is not on Topic.
ysbaddaden @ 42:
I am sure the Russians would argue against that, but right now its ok to beat up on them.
The Nazis proved themselves to be uncivilized above and beyond the horrors of the Holocaust. Their savagery was evident on the battlefield as well. Like our current administration the Nazis did not feel bound to the Geneva Convention. Captain Ed, Bill O (who actually, falsely claimed that US troops massacred Germans) and other neocon apologists have a selective or faulty memory regarding one of the most notorious combat incidents of World War II: the Malmedy Massacre During the Battle of the Bulge the Waffen SS killed hundreds of unarmed American POWs.
AF
"Yes, we are barbarians. We want to be barbarians. It is an honorable title."
Hitler
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p499_Weber.html
Well, he probably never said so.
But at least, up on to now, we would like that he made these kinds of claims..
I agree, the German Reich did not play by the rules. That's why the Nuremberg trials happened. There were a lot of war crimes committed, probably even more than we know because m*** likely did not come to light. Still, our interrogators did well, in spite of who they were up against.
Why does anyone pretend that "Captain" Ed and his band of playskool patriots have any relevance at all except maybe to display the kind of chickenhawk insensitivity to wholesale slaughter, unforgivable and senseless carnage and the abandonment of any semblance of humanity that comes with supporting and rationalizing torture and rendition -- in short, the complete departure from reality that only his pathetic brand of Star Trek pseudo-philosophy embracing, Dungeon and Dragon reality based fantasists seem to graduate to when they embrace the next step up the ladder of pretend World Domination Fantasy and start swallowing the Neo-Con Kool-Aid. Other than displaying that particularly repulsive pathology, why even mention those pathetic cowards who have never even been in a fight, much less the armed forces or actual combat. They are a disgrace to Humanity.
Get a grip. Quit reading his pathetic fantasy war analysis...much less repeating it.
You're right, Captain Ed is one of the more sane of conservative bloggers. But you're also right that he's dead wrong here. We faced a far greater existential threat in WWII and during the Cold War than we do from Al-Qaeda. Ed's made some admirable splits from the pack, but this is, well, pathetic.
it's not really okay to like racists. make no mistake: when your pal ed said nazi detainees were "civilized," he means white. why bend over backward to say a person who'd say such a thing is a good guy?
"While they conducted sabotage missions in the US through espionage, they did not use terrorist infiltrators to attempt to kill thousands of American civilians."
-instead they were made American civilians, project paperclip anyone?
Seaman Ed is a moron. His thinking ability is near zero.
If he was given command of a real ship it would have either run aground or sunk by gun fire before someone could say "raise anchor".
This idea of mentioning, "ya know I like the guy but he's 52 cards short of a deck" is laughable, and sad.
The answer is: they will try to rewrite ANYTHING. They've been doing it at least since they fucked up WWII (in that they missed the whole Fascist menace thing... or not, Nazis being gentlemen and all) and trying to turn Yalta into Betrayal of the West.
Any outfit with the chutzpah to try to turn a fiscal, environmental, constitutional disaster like Reagan into a Great President will try anything.
Batocchio said: "We faced a far greater existential threat in WWII and during the Cold War than we do from Al-Qaeda."
But the difference is, Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union were based overseas, controlled by foreigners. "Al CIA-duh" is based in Langley, Virginia, controlled by Americans.
Login or Register to post comments.