Ain't That America?
Reading this op-ed in the NYTimes evoked this long-buried memory from my childhood.
Let's concede an indisputable point: people should not be in the country illegally. But forget about the border for a moment - let's talk about the 12 million who are already here. What should be done about them?
A. Deport them all.
B. Find out who they are. Distinguish between criminals and people who just want to work. Get them on the books. Make them pay what they owe - not just the income, Social Security, sales and property taxes they already pay, but all their taxes, and a fine. Get a smooth legal flow of immigrants going, and then concentrate on catching and deporting bad people.
C. Catch the few you can, and harass and frighten the rest. Treat the entire group as a de facto class of criminals, and disrupt or shout down anyone or any plan seen as abetting their evildoing.
Forget A. Congress tried a version of B, but it was flattened by outrage.
And so here we are at C. It's a policy that can't work; it's too small-bore, too petty, too narrow. And all the while it's not working, it can only lead to the festering of hate. Americans are a practical and generous people, with a tolerant streak a mile wide. But there is a combustible strain of nativism in this country, and it takes only a handful of match tossers to ignite it.
The new demagogues are united in their zeal to uproot the illegal population. They do not discriminate between criminals and the much larger group of ambitious strivers. They champion misguided policies, like a mythically airtight border fence and a reckless campaign of home invasions. And they summon the worst of America's past by treating a hidden group of vulnerable people as an enemy to be hated and vanquished, not as part of a problem to be managed.
I don't know that we can ever go back to the rosy-glasses of that Schoolhouse Rock song, but I do think that it is incumbent upon us to not fall prey to the bigotry and hatred of Others when discussing immigration.
Im so glad this got posted.
I was taught we were the melting pot.
Everyone was invited.
Ok, so everything I learned was a lie,
I can handle that.
Been handling that fact for a over a decade now...
Dey Tuk R Jarbs!!!!
smarf @ 1:
Everyone is invited. As long as it's legal.
Tell this to the native American Indians. Prepare to be laughed at to core of your soul. People like you actually listen to someone like Hillary! You are part of the problem- with a cartoon to prove it.
As long as their last name is Bush or Clinton.
Cheap Labor Capitalists
D. Do nothing at all about the problem till after 2008.
Just like the war in Iraq and health insurance.
"Let’s concede an indisputable point: people should not be in the country illegally."
Excuse me? Where does this arse get off STARTING from this position and calling it "an indisuputable point"? I'm already disputing it! Why don't I wrote an op-ed and say "Let's start with an indisputable point: I should be the richest man in the world. Now, the question is, how much of your income should you give to me?"
Boooo to starting an editorial with a fallacy and then spending the rest of your time going from there. Let's start with an indisputable point: You're an asshole. I can now disregard everything else you say. Good day!
Just more European line on a map bullshit.
One thing we need to look at is Mexico has failed miserably to hold their end of the NAFTA bargin up. Part of the deal is they would apply real effort to bring their democracy and economy up to 1st world standards.
They haven't done jack squat.
When I hear the hard-right talk about this issue, I can't help thinking of the way the jews were portrayed by the rising nazi party in pre-WWII Germany. Scapegoats for every problem in the nation, when actually, most of this country's most pressing problems are the result of an arrogant and incompetant executive branch.
the righties do William Ocean-esque air guitar solos every time a brown family is torn apart by the INS
Senator Jim Webb disagrees:
“...I call on the President to vigorously enforce the laws that are on the books. This includes tough civil and criminal penalties for companies that knowingly hire illegal immigrants. We must also gain control over our porous borders by properly utilizing the assets and legal means now at our disposal. We have these laws and these means. The President needs to enforce them.
Great SHR..... but... where are the black kids? Hispanic kids? for that matter, ASIAN kids?
Just playin' Devil's Advocate.
Senator Tester disagrees:
"Our first priority must be to secure ports and borders to keep out terror threats, illegal drugs and illegal immigrants. Jon Tester opposes amnesty for those who are here illegally. People who want to come to America should follow the rules — and we should enforce them. There should be no cuts in line. Moreover, hiring illegal aliens is no joking matter. Tester believes we need to enforce the law on employers who hire illegal immigrants no matter who they are. It’s not just a matter of fairness — it’s a question of national security."
L.A. Confidential @ 10:
They've actually improved infrastructure quite a bit . . in the tourist traps.
My grandfather and his parents and family fled the Mexican Revolution but still managed to come here legally.
He learned English and taught his children how to contribute to society. My father taught me the same, and we aren't slaves to some distant country.
Is that really too much to ask? Let these illegals - of all races - do the same.
It's always the same hypocrisy....once my peeps and me have made it past the line, I'm all for application of strict border control....like "dk" put it, "tell it to the native americans"!!
great post. Finally you agree with me.
The answer to illegal immigration is simple:
1. From a person who hires an illegal to mow his lawn to a corporation that hires illegals to work in its factories and pick its produce, make it a felony to do so punishable by mandatory 15 years in prison and confiscation of ALL assets private and corporate. In the case of a private individual, he or she goes to prison and his or her home, bank accounts, cars and all other assets are confiscated by the government. In the case of a corporation or other business all assets of the company are confiscated, all all officers, directers and managers of the company are imprisoned for 15 years and all their personal assets are confiscated.
2. NO medical care, education, food, or shelter to illegal aliens. Anyone providing such to illegals will be arrested and punished as detailed above.
Two simple, easy steps and the problem of illegal aliens will be permanently ended. Mexico can plan to find some way to meet the demands of its millions of returning citizens or face violent revolution funded and directed by the CIA.
PNAAC Minister @ 16:
Yes thats the exception.
L.A. Confidential @ 10:
Uhhh . . . a little history is in order. We went down there and broke up the sustaining mom and pop farms and factories and hired at $2/hour, and took over their corn production (ADM), eradicating sustaining family food farms. Then, we found out we could get the goods made for $.60/hr in China, so the American firms packed up in the late 90s after getting a bailout from teh govt, and took their biz to China, bankrupting entire sections of Mexico . . . most notably the areas near the border.
But heh, you didn't read about it, did you, because the only news at the time was OJ, Clinton/Monica, and how much the dot com people were raking in.
So "ambitious strivers" are exempt from the law?
david_blimmo @ 20:
And of course, bring out de vips.
Now It's more like "The Immigrant" by Neil Sedaka
The Immigrant:
Harbours open there doors to the young searching foreigner
Come to live in the light of the big L of liberty
Plains and open skies bill boards would advertise
Was it anything like that when you arrived
Dream boats carried the future to the heart of America
People were waiting in line for a place by the river
Chorus
It was time when strangers were welcome here
Music would play they tell me the days were sweet and clear
It was a sweeter tune and there was so much room
That people could come from everywhere
Now he arrvies with hopes and his heart set on miracles
Come to marry his fortune with a hand full of promises
To find they've closed the door they don't want him anymore
There isn't anymore to go around
Turning away he remembers he once heard a legend
That spoke of a mystical magical land called America
It was time when strangers were welcome here
Music would play they tell me the days were sweet and clear
It was a sweeter tune and there was so much room
That people could come from everywhere
It was time when strangers were welcome here
Music would play they tell me the days were sweet and clear
It was a sweeter tune and there was so much room
That people could come from everywhere
Le Roi Est Mort @ 17:
Do you understand that the openning moments of a conflict involve the distinction between 'them' and 'us'?
You wrongly see the distinction between Mexico and the US. The further you get from the border, the more distinct they appear. But within hundreds of miles of the border on either side, the difference is less clear. I live 70 miles from Mexico in Arizona and have been here (prior to moving here) since the '50s.
The border isnt a line on a map - that is a Eurocentric notion. Consider the European history of the 'line on a map' - if that doesnt give you pause I just dont know what will.
The border the US shares with Mexico is centuries old and hundreds of miles thick. It is a cultural phenomenon of historic nature and is bidirectional.
Friends of mine have run orphanages in Mexico for decades and the Ronstadt family (of Linda Ronstadt fame just as one example of many) isnt german its Mexican and has been bi-national for 150 years. (Still is)
The lesson in Europe is - lines on maps cause wars. Good neighbors and friendly cooperative relationships create bonds.
Many of the problems that exist in the world - including S W Asia - are the result of lines on maps.
We would do well to learn these lessons. They apply here. We would also do well to stop empowering dystopians.
(unedited)
hareli @ 22:
Thats right. Industrial Capitalism has pretty much milked America dry and can't hold up their end of the bargain and they know it.
There is actually a very simple answer to the illegal immigrant problem in America but the Right wing neo-cons would never go for it.
Get rid of the jobs.... thats right..... $25,000 fine per illegal employee that is working for you.
If they dont have a VALID social security number..... a green card that hasnt expired....or a valid work visa then fine the employer.
This does 2 things..... first, since there arent any available jobs, people will stop comming over.....2 it will give employers the incentive to confirm their employees information.
see..... simple fix...... but most business owners vote Republican so those elephants wont hurt their base
It seems to me that the bug house bigots on the right treat immigration like the so called "war on drugs".Everything and everybody is a crime or criminal.Period.
it's a total waste of American's treasure to build a fence to keep people out. the "compassionate" fucking gop reichwingnut base has turned America into a fascist state
and are begining to bankrupt our farmers because crops are now rotting in the fields and on the trees with no one or almost no one to harvest the crops. you won't see these rightous fucking white assholes do any kind of real labor, they would break a nail and
then look stupid at the gym.
Read that again...
Nope, again...
Nope, still not getting it. Maybe my dictionary is out of date but "illegal" and "criminal" are synonyms as far as I can recall, so "illegal ambitious strivers" are by definiton alone, still criminals.
I remember melting pot vs multiculturalism. I believe in a mixture. You can be a mutt and still make your tamales at xmas with abuelita. "core conservatives" ( or bigots) like the melting pot filled with only white pasty milk and flour.
old hack @ 33:
People always name SD. You do understand that if you move 50 miles inland your example fails, dont you? Anything along I-5 is an anomaly.
You are talking about money I suspect. I'm not. I'm talking about, culture, race, language, history trans-border personal and economic relationships and more. Your line on a map doesnt divide those things.
old hack @ 35:
Mr Gorbachev PUT UP THIS WALL
Okay, here we go...
Let's abolish all immigration laws for everyone already living in the Western Hemisphere. If you live in Puerto Williams and want to come work in Detroit, come right along. If you live in Thunder Bay and want to live in Guadalajara, no problem. The EU is moving in this direction (with qualifications) in Europe and they have contiguous borders Asia and Africa.
For all the talk of "securing our borders" all of the 9/11 hijackers were in the country on legal visas - not one of them swam across the Rio Grande or paddled ashore in Long Island from an AQ submarine.
And if you want to plunge the country into a full-blown depression by all means start cracking down on industries that employ illegal aliens. But forget about going to restaurants, buying produce or meat products, purchasing wine, and so forth and so on. The U.S. economy would collapse overnight and all the xenophobic nationalist would be quick to blame that on the Jews.
[Deleted. Blogwhoring and off topic. Feel free to repost in an Open Thread-Sitemonitor]
To david_blimmo commenter above:
"The answer to illegal immigration is simple:
1. From a person who hires an illegal to mow his lawn to a corporation that hires illegals to work in its factories and pick its produce, make it a felony to do so punishable by mandatory 15 years in prison and confiscation of ALL assets private and corporate. In the case of a private individual, he or she goes to prison and his or her home, bank accounts, cars and all other assets are confiscated by the government. In the case of a corporation or other business all assets of the company are confiscated, all all officers, directers and managers of the company are imprisoned for 15 years and all their personal assets are confiscated.
2. NO medical care, education, food, or shelter to illegal aliens. Anyone providing such to illegals will be arrested and punished as detailed above."
Hopefully, this is a joke. If not, you're talking about a level of law enforcement the costs of which would potentially rival the military spending we currently perform.
Second, it's easy to say 'don't give them health care.' However, when you don't give members of your society basic levels of health care then the communicable disease rate for the entire population skyrockets as people who have diseases don't get them treated, they spread, and suddenly we've got crazy things like typhoid again.
It's easy to say we should do things like revamp the entire way our country operates; much harder to implement. Having both worked alongside of, hired, and known illegal immigrants in multiple states, for the most part they contribute more to our economy than they take; they use someone's social when they get hired for jobs and thus pay into social security / medicaid, they pay sales taxes when they buy things, and they spend money here.
So, what exactly is so wrong with them?
but doesnt the good neighbor policy have to go both ways to work??
If an American goes south and gets caught without papers they get tossed in the nearest jail where he is required to dish out bribes to get back home.
Mr. Pelicano @ 39:
Another way to see that same perspective is to consider the continental consequences of economic policy. The US government needs to be principly responsible to the US citizens, but policies that are detrimental to others on the continent will likely have negative consequences for the US. An economically healthy Mexico can only be beneficial in general to the US.
And what should we do about the ones who are serving OUR country (NOT THEIRS) in the military?
D. Draft them to fight in your illegal wars that your own people are too fat, lazy and/or disinterested to either fight for themselves or end through their legal representatives.
And now the "Great American melting pot" is just going to pot!
State legislatures are taking care of the problem on their own, and yes, it is a problem. One's opinion is somewhat diminished unless they have actually lived in and experienced the economic, social and educational consequences of illegal immigration in a border state.
IE: Rampant drugs, human trafficing, highest national car theft rates, highest property theft rates, low funded and low performing schools. These stats occur for a reason, that reason, in border states, is directly linked to illegal immigration. The federal government is NOT helping on so many fronts, Securing the border is just a drop in the ocean in border states.
Even border states welcome legal immigrants, but weariness has come from the lack of enforcing laws designed to protect actual citizens.
Linda @ 46:
Oh wait! I posted that comment too soon! We can deport them back to their host country, and then get them to sign up for Blackwater's mercenary force. That way, they'll be making $15,000/month of taxpayer money, instead of the $1,500/month of taxpayer money the military pays them.
i dont see the real americans in this piece of shit cartoon, you stole this country fucking murdered my people shit on the land poison the rivers lakes streams everybody go home and take them snake worshiping mutha fucking reoubs and the brain dead fundies with yah!!!!!not that thiers anything wrong with it!
Maybe my dictionary is out of date but “illegal” and “criminal” are synonyms as far as I can recall, so “illegal ambitious strivers” are by definiton alone, still criminals.
So are jaywalkers or people who get parking tickets. They are, by your definition, "criminals" for breaking the law.
oh forgot to mention im cherokee!
old hack @ 44:
As someone who has personal experience on the border dating back to the '50s, I really dont agree. The border was ill-defined until Reagan in my opinion. I used to cross the border routinely. The US and Mexico was divided by a dry wash - no fence. If you are suggesting that it took hundreds of years to steal northern mexico, I wouldnt disagree. With the exception of the Gadston purchase - off the top of my head - I cant think of land acquired by other than violent means from Mexico.
As a question to a - sorry - native american, what relevance does a line on a map have to the Yaqui?
Roger from Ohio @ 43:
Sure. This is hard to start - remember the starts of the EU? Very very slow.
There is the forgotten observation that the illegal workers, or their employees have been keeping social security funded for years. It's easy to overlook this uncomfortable fact. Taxes are witheld and deposited for workers who have no right to ever collect them. The amount collected is not a trivial matter to propping up the USA's solvancy.
Lets all just smoke pot then we wont care about this problem!!!
====\/~~
Are you "talking 'bout the Schoolhouse, Schoolhouse Rock!"? Wait, where does that apply again (I guess I missed it)? I just remember the "Bill becomes a Law" one.
More seriously there is an option D. that is honest the real one the Republicans (party of big business, remember) prefers:
D. Create, register, and track a permanent underclass, codified in law, that can be paid less than minimum wage, has NO U.S. benefits of citizenship, and whose children do not become citizens. If they complain? Deported. If they sue the workplace? Deported. If their children want to be citizens? Well, it's a 10 year wait for the paper work. Then we'll see. Now get back to polishing my golden toilet for $1.40 an hour, Mexican!
I'm not joking. This is what they want, and they may yet get it.
And while you libs may hear Neal Sadaka, the cons hear:
Damn Canadian illegals, apparently! (I kid.)
anon [at]55;
As a question to a - sorry - native american, what relevance does a line on a map have to the Yaqui?
What relevance does a line on a map have to any creature on the planet. They don't just keep people out, they lock you in also.
tyree @ 54:
You guys were quite simply fucked. Even I'm embarassed. I just checked wikipedia and they had a disambiguation page to distinguish the Cherokee nation for the band cherokee. :( You need to start and never stop suing.
clone12 @ 53:
And so are people that trash the Constitution, but I don't see anything happening to them!!
holy fucking shit
why is it that most progressives are on the wrong side of this debate?
wanna just provide amnesty? go right ahead
and thanks for playing right into the corporatists hands who would love nothing more than to turn america into one big 3rd world country, with a cheap and forever poor labor force
in every amnesty bill, they want to write in an expansion of "guest worker" programs....what the fuck for???
ill tell you why...because once those in this country have papers...they must get prevailing wages....and on and on the cycle goes
here is what must happen
revamp gat and nafta.....stop all corporate welfare....no more tax credits for outsourcing....if a company outsources jobs for manufacturing, tarriff them up the ass
no guest worker programs for agribiz.....none
shut down the borders....prove that the influx of illegals has ceased to a trickle
heavy fines and jail time to all employers hiring and employing illegals....fuck this bullshit of not knowing....
then, after 5 years, if everything seems to be working, then and only then should we look at any sort of amnesty
but even then, amnesty is a big fuck you to those who have emigrated here legally
My fellow liberals JUST DONT GET this issue. We all welcome LEGAL immigration and admire those who actually MELT in the pot. These illegals they dont MELT they dont get in the pot at all they avoid it they refuse to learn english or take american culture as PART of their own. They unlike legal immigrants of the past (who thought of handouts as an insult)get on any and all govt or assistance program they can. Anyone who who supports illegal immigration supports the abuse of these people and the creation of a permanent underclass. Why is it ok to pay someone less than minimum wage to do HARD LABOR???
STOP exploiting these people!!!!
This whole nation of laws thing is rather QUAINT, don't you think??
there's nothing wrong with cultural boundaries. America is a diverse country. It should fight to stay that way. No matter what anyone says. That means not letting states become nothing but one race of any race. We need boundaries to establish our culture and economy. Open borders is as bad as having a wall in my eyes,
Edwin @ 60:
... and divide. The Yaqui are cross border and were unaturally split - families split.
From ...
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/04/0413_050413_genographic....
... its not poetry, we are a family to a scientific certainty.
tyree @ 54:
look, if we want to undo all the wrongs committed to indigenous peoples throughout the world, that would be fine
the only prob is, america should not be the only country that does this
and the fact is, the illegal population of california is bankrupting the state...and that is not my imagination talking...its a fact
tyree Says:
oh forgot to mention im cherokee!
cherokee aren't mexican.
old hack @ 66:
Whose borders?
The Yaqui had borders until we artificially divided them with our borders. You are saying that political borders (lines on maps) protect cultural boundries. Personally, as a german english male, I have more in common in many ways with Mexicans than with New Yorkers.
Also personally, I would welcome the complete blending of humanity. As long as humans maintain the them or us perspective the only solution is to make it impossible for them to distinguish between them or us.
Them or us is really ...
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/04/0413_050413_genographic....
... us and us. We have the same origins. We need to get over it at some point.
anon @ 61:
its to late for money thiers only shit from china to spend it on! but its a nice thought!
old hack @ 69:
no shit little beaver!
uncle joe mccarthy @ 68:
I am not questioning the accuracy of your statements, but am wondering if you can furnish
some factual evidence that the "illegal populations of Calif. is brankrupting the state." We
here in Texas, have mucho illegals also, but have not seen any indications that "they"
are causing the State serious and/or sever financial consequences.
im for genetic diversity as well friend. It's an American phenomenon. I'm mostly Irish. the Irish definately got the same treatment mexicans are getting now. Only difference is our government enabled their government to fuck up their way of life. So they're not coming here looking for American interests they're coming here with hostilities towards the American empire. The issue is so much more complex then people give the time to learn about. The Daily show sure isn't showing both sides of the issue.
old hack @ 74:
Agreed, nor is the Lou Dobbs Show on CNN....
old hack @ 74:
I'm not really. It exists as do its consequences (culture, language etc). But in that it is commonly a cause of division I dont support it really. Science shows that it is of secondary importance.
try plans A and/or B again
If one could logically complain about unpatriotic "outsourcing of jobs" (which many here do!!!)
logically one could complain about "insourcing of labor" (illegal)
...there!... I hope I avoided inflaming anyones racial feelings.
Leaping lizards, I missed the lgf thread.
Anyhoo, the rule of law does not apply now so the "illegal" argument is history.
This is why Ron Paul had to write this:
"The American Freedom Agenda Act would bar the use of evidence obtained through torture; require that federal intelligence gathering is conducted in accordance with the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA); create a mechanism for challenging presidential signing statements; repeal the Military Commissions Act, which, among other things, denies habeas corpus to certain detainees; prohibit kidnapping, detentions, and torture abroad; protect journalists who publish information received from the executive branch; and ensure that secret evidence is not used to designate individuals or organizations with a presence in the U.S. as foreign terrorists." Ron Paul was the first of all the presidential candidates, red or blue, to step up in this way -- and all credit is due to him for getting there first. May the others of both parties race to follow his lead. -Huffington Post
anon @ 76:
To make this clear - I consider genetic diversity irrelevant and it is of no interest to me.
It is nothing more or less than the trivial consequence of the migrations of the human family out of S. Africa.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/04/0413_050413_genographic....
(sorry to repeat the link - but this may be the most important science since the work of Einstein)
It is not bigotry or hatred when someone says they should be rounded up and deported. I personaly think they should be. I said it before, they are responsible for 4 of my nephews being in the military. Each boy went to post-highschool schooling of some sort. 2 have degrees. They simply cannot get jobs in their fields. Pedro comes up here and works for $5 per hour. No entry level positions exsist unless you will work for peanuts. My nephews are then forced into the military as it is the only way they can get their school debts paid off. You think this is lost on the war mongers in each party? They love this shit, thats why it is happening. Fuck the illegal aliens. Like FZ said, "Wrap em up, move em out, get em out of my way". Like I said, round them up and DEPORT them, not shoot them..... You think if they were middle-eastern muslims any politician would say, "Gosh it is so hard to find them all...."
That did bring back memories that I still hold dear. We have made our mistakes--native/Americans, Afro/Americans, the Japanese etc., but the idea is still a good one worth working toward. It was this dream that really separates America from other places. I hope our fear does not destroy this dream.
I do not post much. But I must comment that these posts with good intentions seem to turn into a mob mentality with everyone screaming. There is really not much discussion when it gets to name calling. So I guess we are still a work in progress -- not knowing where we are exactly are going --but trying to do good along the way.
Tonic08 @ 13:
But that would mean that some of Bush's "have mores" would "have less" ...oh, the horror, the horror!!!!!
anon @ 80:
The same Albert Einstsein who said: "Only two things are infinite; the Universe and
humam stupidity; and I'm not sure about the former." ???
I support LEGAL imigration 100%.
fwacbar @ 85:
I'll go with 110 percent....anyone going higher?
Doggiebobo @ 73:
illegal immigration is costing cali 10 bil per year in non reimbursed funds
you can google to find the stats
im not surprised that bushco has gone out of its way to lessen the impact on texas
shoot, we are still waiting for the billions in reimbursement that texas based energy firms raped us of during the start of the crooks administration
Americans are a practical and generous people
They were once. When I was a kid and we'd first arrived in the US, complete strangers invited us to their house for Thanksgiving.
Now? Not so much.
"Send 'Em Back" courtesy of the wonderful Roy Zimmerman & The Foremen!
uncle joe mccarthy @ 87:
shoot, we are still waiting for the billions in reimbursement that texas based energy firms raped us of during the start of the crooks administration
Yep, and that too is a really sad story because Enron and Ken Lay, et.al. ripped off
not only Calif., but it shareholders/employees and the public in general, yet seriously
doubt that any of them/us will ever be reimbursed. Just another example of BIG
business shiting on the "little guy" and not having to pay the consequences.
Doggiebobo @ 90:
Yep, and that too is a really sad story because Enron and Ken Lay, et.al. ripped off
not only Calif., but it shareholders/employees and the public in general, yet seriously
doubt that any of them/us will ever be reimbursed. Just another example of BIG
business shiting on the "little guy" and not having to pay the consequences.
its more than that....it was government that covered for these assholes....the same way that they are covering for big biz hiring illegals now
im in the tech field....i have watched wages stagnate in my field too
and it isnt about illegal workers from central and south america....its about the expansion of visa programs for those from the near east
employer only has to put a fake ad in a newspaper, say that no naturlized cititizens applied, or were capable of handling the duties, and bam....cheap labor and no benefits
its what microsoft does
can someone explain to me why a multi billion dollar company like microsoft has to increase its profits by outsourcing tech support to india?
Like abortion, the issue of immigration is one of the toughest ideological issues today. I am for freedom of choice but I wish with all my heart that abortion didn't have to be a choice. And with immigration, I truly believe in the Statue Of Liberty's 'Give me your tired and hungry...' mantra. But I'm also a rule of law person and a realist and a firm believer that the population of the world is at a tipping point for survival. All these factors make the immigration issue a conundrum that freezes any chance of making a hard and fast decision on where I stand. There seems to be no nuanced thinking that would create a livable solution for the immigrants and Americans welcoming newcomers. The rhetoric from all sides is just....polemic.
Don't you just laugh at the pea brains who actually suggest deportation as a solution to the 12 million "illegals"? I mean - after you overcome the urge to get violent over such stupidity!
I miss School House Rock on Saturday mornings!
if we cant deport them then what do we do with 5,000,000 people who dont want to be an American but are stuck in America?
Doggiebobo
what you're condoning is that we forget our heritage.
fwacbar @ 81:
Ah yes you are a true blue jackass. Your nephews sound like
dimwits. Pis on you & your slackjawed nephews.
If you Really want to get informed-
RIOTS in Mexico Police State issued last year
then magically we have millions of pissed off mexicans moving here.
gee I wonder if they're connected,,,
Mike @ 97:
Now, why would you say something like that? OK, that isn't the best writing I've seen, but still...
When times get tight, house-guests are less welcome. And despite Bush cooking the books (by spending, and spending and spending) the shit is starting to hit the fan with the economy. This is WITH the 'war' giving it a big old boost. Mocking people for being poor isn't going to get you very far.
Either we deal with illegal immigration NOW, including some deportation... or really, really bad stuff will start happening to illegals when people born in this country can't get jobs or enough food. Competition for resources. Do I need to remind you how that turns out? If things go that way, I can guarantee you the first brick thrown will be by LEGAL immigrants from Mexico that busted their asses to get here and get legal.
Compounding that, many of the NEW illegals don't seem to really WANT to become Americans. Some how 'retaining cultural pride' has instead become "take a dump on the U.S. Flag". Hell I support a path to citizenship for most illegals here, but marching in some sort of bizzare parade where they only fly the flag of Mexico and refuse that of the U.S.?! Illegals. In this country as our guests, giving our country and everything it stands for the finger. Just wow. Personally, I don't think we need any more intolerant fuckwits, even if they are Mexican or Guatemalan or Dutch or whatever.
What made, and makes this country great is melting pot, not "multiculturalism". That doesn't mean everyone is the same at all, but we follow the same, minimum framework of laws and essential customs (language, drive on the right, building code, etc.). Just barely enough to get along. Then you can warship Baal, and sacrifice goats to the Gods of Antarctica while speaking Elvish on a float in a Gay Pride parade for all we care. Culture away.
There are SO MANY people in this world that really do want to come to America, and would be proud to participate in our society legally. If these people don't want that, fine. Then get the hell out. Many illegals are victims that need asylum; I'll be the first to welcome them. But more people I meet or see a story about... this is no longer the case. Not to mention, illegal workers really DO enable illegal employers. You go after the employers of course, but that is still true. I don't want a permanent underclass here, even if some of the illegals are fine with it. It goes against everything America stands for.
If you want to help people south of the border, we could start buy stopping Big Agriculture from stomping on their necks, as is done now (dumping, seeds, pesticides...).
Who wants to be a melting pot. What folks really want is melted white chocolate. Face it - America is racist and will be racist for at least another two decades.
you have to watch ALL the SchoolHouse Rock videos.
Above, allow the first one to play all the way through to the end, and when it does, you will see a scroll bar appear with ALL the other school house rock videos linked.
I like no more kings, and shot heard round the world. Reminds me that I am proud to be an American, just not under king W's rule.
but the most important one is the PreAmble
I for one am happy to have the Times point out the recklessness in what Dobbs and others are stirring up - just more hate and fear (all over again). I'm surprised more blogs don't cite this demagogue more often. It's very difficult for me to watch Dobbs' bloviating, self-agrandizing and name calling and most of the time I won't.
How many immigrants come to the US to rip off the US?
How many immigrants come to the US to try to make a (below minimum wage) living?
These people risk DEATH to get here. Employer's in the US KNOW who they are hiring and do so at below minimum US wage.
Yet, these immigrants they pay taxes on everything they buy. They pay taxes into Social Security that they can never DRAW from.
They work HARD at jobs that no AMERICAN could bother themselves to do.
And these are the people that you want to PENALIZE? What ever happened to the "I'm an immigrant so I must work harder than the Americans to prove my worth?"
Don't think that's the case?
Ask any Black person if they haven't had to work extra hard just to be considered EQUAL to a white.
Ask any Woman that has had to work extra hard ...only to find out that they are being paid LESS than their MALE counterparts.
When you can show me lines of Americans waiting for the chance to pick corn at 5.00/day I will agree we have a problem.
Until then...Shut the fuck up about a subject you know NOTHING about.
Wow, not a single mention of Native Americans in that video. I'm honestly surprised. I realize there aren't that many of us left (I'm also Cherokee), but we are still here, and a little acknowledgment would be appreciated. Kthnxbai.
clone12 @ 52:
Is that supposed to be an argument? Because generally, arguments are contrary to the other person's point of view. How is this concept difficult for people to understand? A criminal is someone who breaks the law, therefore if you break a law, you are... come on... think hard now... almost there... yes! A criminal! It's not a word synonimous with "rapist" or "murderer" you know.
Jaywalking and illegal parking are crimes of conveniece however, and have no real impact on society. Are you going to tell me illegal immigration is equally harmless? A!=B but A&B= Criminal offences. Of course now it's far too late to do ANYTHING about it short of economic collapse. Had they been treated like criminals all along and the laws enforced... well, I suppose it's optimistic even to muse about such things.
This is a tough subject to do much about due to the fact that it is so out of control now.
As things stand right now it is basically a minority/discrimination issue in a lot of ways.
The poor immigrant that is just trying to better themselves verses the illegal that is trying to sponge off the government.
I live in Florida. We have immigrants everywhere you look. Most of them can't or won't speak the language unless you force them too. They live with multiple families in small places. Most of them have nicer vehicles that the American workers doing similar job. Most of the jobs in the papers want people that are bi-lingual so they can work with the immigrants.
I look at is as the most discriminated person in the workplace in the US is the healthy white male. They have to earn a position on merit alone. There is no tax break because they don't fall under the minority/handicap clauses the government hands out. If I am applying for a position and I have the best qualifications but other applying are close and they can get a tax break and fill a minority slot, then that person gets the position. It is how this country works.
The best solution I can see for the problem is to have the employer pay all the back taxes and fines for the workers they employ that are illeagle. Give the workers a change to get legal at the employers expense and get the wages and minority laws on a more even keel that is fair to all the people regardless of their status.
Le Roi Est Mort @ 17:
DJ @ 18:
Things have changed a lot since the Mexican revolution days. At that time, there was no such thing as coming into this country "illegally" and people crossed the border as they pleased. Some would stay and many wouldn't, as they didn't see this as a country where life could be that much better. It is quite possible that if your great-grandparents had had no other alternative but to escape their bad situation by entering this country illegally, they would have done just.
"America was the New world and Europe was the Old"? Uh, not for me. How presumptuous. My ancestors were here first, and they sure as hell didn't migrate from Europe.
The problem with immigration continues because we have failed to educate. We need the immigrants (including illegal ones) to do the work. That is why they are here. If we kick them out there will be, among others, food shortages and higher prices (likely much higher). Do we really want that? If people understood this they would support a rational approach. But if the issue is not how much shortages and higher prices are we willing to accept but "Should we give amnesty to those criminals?" then a rational approach is impossible. Let us stop complaining and educate. For further discussion see
randomabsurdities.wordpress.com
RobertPaul @ 103:
Notice how RobertPaul talks about immigrants....not ILLEGAL immigrants. Back during the large immigration in the 1800's-1930's, most came in legally. Sure there have always been illegals, but back then most were legal, performing, uh....catch this.....low paying jobs. Being taken advantage of by corporations. The Chinese, Irish, Russians, and so forth. For some reason, if you believe immigration laws should be enforced, you are a bigot. A hater.
So WHY can't an immigrant come into the country legally for these so-called jobs that Americans don't want to do? Why? If it's because that route is too cumbersome, then reform THAT.
As far as illegals paying into social security, well, their number is invalid, stolen, whatever. So naturally they can't collect from it (of those that DO pay). Meanwhile, your taxes pay for their free education and medical expenses. Ever been in an auto accident where the party responsible was an illegal and uninsured? Try collecting to get your car fixed. Better hope you don't have serious bodily injury, but if you do I'm sure you'll be happy sitting in your wheelchair the rest of your life knowing that at least that illegal was able to send money home. Paying sales taxes on items purchased hardly makes a dent in the costs incurred by illegals. On the money that isn't sent back home, that is.
I'm one that won't "shut the f*** up" because not only do I know what I am talking about, I'm an American citizen (so far) as well.
Is it out of line that we change the focus of the debate to consider what we want the country to become in the future in terms of total population? I couldn't care less what color the people in the USA are, but I'm deeply concerned about local, national and world population densities. That issue is fundamental to all environmental and resource related problems, and to many economic and social problems as well. An ever increasing population is only good news to corporations who are interested in diluting labor markets and inflating the number of potential consumers. As the numbers grow each individual becomes less valuable economically and politically.
What is the optimal population for the USA? Answer that and move on to valuing each and every inhabitant.
fwacbar @ 80:
Eamon @ 2:
I doubt your degree-holding friends are feeling a lot of pressure from ILLEGAL immigrants. H1Bs, maybe. (They're one reason I didn't continue to pursue a computer science degree.)
The jobs that illegals take or drive wages down for are mainly the jobs that people with no higher education get. They're the jobs that used to be people's first jobs. The jobs that lead people to becoming tradesmen. What did every kid I knew who had money in high school do during the summer? Construction. By turning over the construction industry to illegal immigrants (who will work for peanuts and can't complain about crap to anyone), we're crippling the economic lives of a substantial fraction of the generation of Americans that is growing up right now.
The only "americans won't do these jobs!" argument that makes a hint of sense to me is crop harvesting. People whose roots are all in another country can be a lot more mobile than those who are tied to one area. And even then, this industry should be exempt from US labor laws? Uh, no.
Not only that...but yeah...the illegal immigrants ARE mostly hard workers and people striving for something better. The US is getting told it needs to help the Mexican economy develop to stem the flow of immigration...WHILE MEXICO IS ENCOURAGING THE VERY PEOPLE WHO COULD DO THAT TO LEAVE. Seems to me that's just ensuring continued poverty and injustice in Mexico if the only people who have enough of a problem with it to change anything are all in the US.
IMO, either deportation, or aggressive enforcement removing economic incentives for most people to stay is not unreasonable. I think it should be as close to impossible to stay in the US illegally as is practical, it should be damn hard to get in illegally, and it should be a lot easier to get in legally.
The Iraqis should declare the 200,000+ Americans in their country illegal aliens and then kick them out. Aren't Americans taking away jobs from them? Like military, security, construction, etc.
....and now...."A Brief History of the United States of America."
Acting Patriotic @ 114:
but what about the fundies ,did they get thier rapture? i tend to equate getting your rocks off with the word rapture!
RobertPaul @ 103:
perhaps if the greedy cocksuckers who own thoes cornfields paid a worker a decent wage more americans would be willing to pick that corn, its not like the corporations who own that corn are giveing it to us any cheaper because the mexicans are picking it!
Mr. Pelicano @ 39:
Utter nonsense. The EU has very strong "qualifications" on who can move from state to state. You make it sound as if anyone and everyone can simply float from one EU nation to another.
As for the collapse of industries that employ illegals, perhaps you should visit some of the areas within the U.S. that haven't been flooded with illegals (yet). You'll be stunned to find that the lawns get mowed, the dishes get washed, and the apples get picked. All by legal U.S. citizens. The lie that there are jobs "Americans won't due" is used either out of ignorance or to maintain the status quo.
When I was growing up, I didn't hear any of my friends saying how much they wanted to be crop pickers, lawn mowers, or short order cooks. How they couldn't wait to get out of high school so they could start cleaning houses, buffing floors, or making tacos. Now, a lot of people I know may have fallen into doing some of these things for a paycheck, we all have to make ends meet. I also believe that if the mexican immigrant had the education, they wouldn't want to be payed low wages for manual labor either. I just don't know why anyone in this country, especially those with money, would care that these people are hear, doing the jobs we don't want to do, and not asking for a whole lot either. If a poor, uneducated hispanic is taking your job, well it's time you use your stature and education to find a new job. Just my two cents.
tyree @ 115:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHPikUPlRD8
Seems pretty heavenly to me.
Slap a multi-million dollar fine on any company that is found to have illegals hired. That will solve the problem.
I'm here on an expired visa and have been left alone. You can't deport us all.
"...But there is a combustible strain of nativism in this country, and it takes only a handful of match tossers to ignite it."
A long time ago, this land was once ruled by 'natives' who lived imaginative lives, but had their lands taken over by hoards of European pirates who came over in boats, having superior artillery.
Of course, there was probably an uproar from the native population at that time, too, about illegal immigrants... the natives were out-numbered and over-powered, and now the descendants of the conquering pirates claim sovereignty over the land against another hoarde of people coming over, looking for a better life.
I'm sure I'm not the first to have made such an observation.
122 Morris Boni
So you're saying we should roll over and let them come in hordes?
p.s. skyreader in post 113 makes another good point, too.
Talk about illegal immigrants.
ysbaddaden, i'm just making an observation.
Sarita @ 104:
Yeah, it's weird. It's like Native Americans (First Nations, etc.) have just been booted from the official "minorities club".
My pet theory is that it is pure jealousy. There are plenty of tribes that could still use a little help or compensation, but all anyone thinks about is "casino". So now all the other minorities, I think, really do have a grudge against "Indians". Sad, but that's human nature. Crabs in a bucket.
I mean, look at the Irish. They were branded as "sub-human" and "without souls" not too long ago at all. No one would hire them (the famous "Irish need not apply" signs). In some place in the east, they could be killed, and mysteriously, no one would bother to investigate. Most of them were sent off the boat (escaping the famine) right into battle to die unarmed. Not that they had it easy back home under the English. But they finally got past the stigmas and stereotypes of fighting and drinking to just earn a decent living with a minimum of abuse. For the most part, they are finally accepted in these last 40 years.
And now? Well, when people see a pale white American of Irish descent, "Racist! You don't know what it's like! You and your people have ALWAYS had it easy! Jerks! Fucking white males always keeping us down." And so it goes... more racism.
A wise man once said, "Judge a man not by the color of his skin, but by the content of his character." (MLK) But why listen to him, right? When the crunch hits in a few years, and we all must compete for food, it will be easy to hate all white people simply for the color of their skin. There will be violence. But I would hope to just overthrow those will oppression in their hearts instead.
Perhaps now I see why so many progressive bloggers often just 'leave Dobbs alone'. It's too hot in this kitchen.
arroyo @ 127:
Yes, well. I guess I agree. But it is no wonder!
"Progressives" threw once blue collar, blue voting labor under the bus to compromise with the Republicans. People probably remember and resent that. Unions today are a joke, and that is just how Hillary likes it.
I forget why exactly now. The last 10 years says that didn't work out so well for them anyway.
The sad thing about Dobbs is that he was sane before he went crazy. Too bad. He made sense 4 or 5 years ago before the rabies.
Well, that cartoon sure was anti-climactic...
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