LA Wild Fires
By John Amato Monday Oct 22, 2007 3:45pm
(Bush in SD during Katrina)
It's very eerie in LA right now. The temperature is unusually hot and the sky is very grey and smokey. I'm not too close to the fires, but I know a lot of people who have had to be evacuated or couldn't get home because the roads were blocked. Over 750 homes have been lost. The Govenator said that Global Warming may be responsible for stepping up the frequency of the CA fires this morning. Will Bunch writes:
The AP has a good story today contrasting the treatment of the Southern California wildfire evacuees who've been forced to take shelter at San Diego's Qualcomm Stadium with the notorious conditions at the Louisiana Superdome after Hurricane Katrina devastated New Orleans in 2005...read on
SAN DIEGO (AP) - Like Hurricane Katrina evacuees two years earlier in New Orleans, thousands of people rousted by natural disaster fled to the NFL stadium here, waiting out the calamity and worrying about their homes.
The similarities ended there, as an almost festive atmosphere reigned at Qualcomm Stadium.
Bands belted out rock 'n' roll, lavish buffets served gourmet entrees, and massage therapists helped relieve the stress for those forced to flee their homes because of wildfires.......read on
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Well, one reason that there are less problems is that most of the people in those stadiums are wealthy home owners instead of poor people with no way to get out of New Orleans before Katrina hit.
Those individuals in the heavily repuglican area of San Diego who are now living in Qualcomm Stadium are used to this.
Republican Governor, Republican counties, Republican White House...
Hmmm- any poor and/or blacks allowed in?
Rich and mostly white vs. poor and mostly black. Big surprise that the former are looked after and the latter abandoned.
And racism in USA doesnt end with the republicans or Bush for that matter, its sort of like the foundation of the country. So good luck getting rid of it.
Btw, that photo of Arbusto shows him trying to play a "G" chord with the root on strings 1 & 6 on the third and fourth frets. Or is he just giving us the finger? What an idiot. He's a Nero not a hero.
I live in San Diego and attend San Diego State University, the sky is almost completely gray here, only a few patches of blue are visible.
Southern California desperately needs to prepare for this, it will happen again. I can't speak for Los Angeles but East County San Diego is incredibly dry, and when those Santa Ana winds come and the humidity drops into the single digits it turns into a tinder box.
I hope everyone has been able to get in contact with friends and family and all are safe.
Much love and well wishes.
While the media is back slapping chimp...NO had 8 inches of rain and waist high water today...
I imagine that Barb Bush will be there to help because, unlike Katrina, these people aren't used to having nothing.
Gourmet entrees, and massage therapists? Holy Cripes!
Contrast this with the victims of Katrina... Hmmm...
cheesesauce @ 8:
Yeah, the fingering looks suspect.
The laternative is even more ludicrous, that he is proficient in open tunings.
Laternative is a new word. :)
Dr. Know @ 12:
No matter how you shake it...that doesn't look good to the people of NO....
where still many are left swinging in the breeze
The two events cannot even remotely be compared as apples to apples in terms of response or lack there of in "refugee" handling.
1) In New Orleans, they were huddled in a leaky dome, missing a roof, not knowing if they would drown or not. No one knew how deep that water would get. Medical supplies, power, and everything else was unavailable. The only way in was by boat. A complete recipe for panic.
2) Qualcomm has most of the amenities and a functioning power supply and sewer system. The refugees come in staggered as the fire steadily progresses through more areas. Katrina was basically everyone suffering all at once. Also, no one is in imminent danger at the stadium and people can freely come and go from Qualcomm by public transportation. (Not to imply they enjoy life in a stadium or that they aren't truly scared about the future or suffering)
However, I still think If you compare the two you are basically an idiot. There is nothing similar about them. If you are going to compare the fires to Katrina you might as well compare them to the Tsunami. They literally have about the same minuscule amount in common.
Not knocking John's post as it is just a reference to the article. But, living in San Diego I know I will be inundated with comparisons to Katrina that make as much sense as comparing Bush and Cheney to honorable men of integrity.
The people of Katrina have far more in common with Iraqi refugees then they will ever have with the ones at Qualcomm.
"The two events cannot even remotely be compared as apples to apples in terms of response or lack there of in “refugee” handling.
1) In New Orleans, they were huddled in a leaky dome, missing a roof, not knowing if they would drown or not. No one knew how deep that water would get. Medical supplies, power, and everything else was unavailable. The only way in was by boat. A complete recipe for panic.
2) Qualcomm has most of the amenities and a functioning power supply and sewer system. The refugees come in staggered as the fire steadily progresses through more areas. Katrina was basically everyone suffering all at once. Also, no one is in imminent danger at the stadium and people can freely come and go from Qualcomm by public transportation. (Not to imply they enjoy life in a stadium or that they aren’t truly scared about the future or suffering)"
Bingo......
JC @ 16:
I was about to post exactly the same thing. No matter how incompetent the response to Katrina was, it was certainly hampered by a level of destruction that puts these fires to shame. Has southern California lost power and had all of its major roadways shut down? Is 1/2 of LA under 10 feet of water? Are there power lines down all over the place? Do the telephones work? Is there potable water?
Bad analogy.
zugzug @ 18:
Obviously NOLA was a much worse situation and the people suffered tremendously...it's still interesting to see since Bush was in San Diego when Katrina hit...
zugzug @ 18:
Right! I mean, come on, most of these people are probably still going to work. They can walk to a bar or a restaraunt. They probably have a pocketful of credit cards (and places to use them) and their bank is not washed away.
Not a good comparison
Andy @ 15:
Exactly. Even those not directly affected by the floodwaters have been denied reentry due to the "cleansing" efforts that have ultimately destroyed NO's character. The grand plan is to turn NO into another shopping mall for the anointed ones.
I saw a story here in San Diwgo on local news about blankets for dogs. Man I just can't get over the night and day treatment of Americans.
Certainly not defending anyone, but I agree there are some major differences here. This stadium in Cal. is not surrounded by flood waters. Food and ice and such can be brought in and people can move around inside and out. As far as I can tell the electric is still on too. There are comparisons to be made but the differences are stark.
Having said that, these people who have lost their homes are in my thoughts today. I cannot imagine the hell they are going through. At least they won't be put on buses and dropped off around the country, I hope.
We are not Americans. We are the haves, and the have nots.
Well give it a couple days guys, wait until the mud slides happen, which nobody else will predict and wait until the insurance companies bail out then re-visit these comparables a bit OK?
I don't suppose it is possible that we have actually learned something from the Superdome fiasco, and are trying to do it better this time around?
C'mon folks, you didn't immediately think of the Superdome when you heard about Qualcomm? I sure did. And I for one am glad they are doing it right this time. When we have children, we are able to do better what our parents screwed up. Same here.
Actually, the bank is closed. The restaurants are shut. And even the bar isn't open. Everyone who can leave has left. It's like a ghost town. And yes, many, many people are without power or telephone services and they are enduring sweltering temperatures along with the fallout of ash raining down from the sky.
Picture this; Three Hundred Thousand people evacuated/fleeing the fires. 300,000.
compare it to;
"...The Greater New Orleans area is still Louisiana's largest urban center. The population of the city itself was 484,674 according to the 2000 U.S. Census".
No, it's no Katrina, but it's also no picnic.
A fire and hurricane are totally different. no rich or poor, in San Diego, guess what there are poor people in san diego.. so enough of this class warfare crap!!
sorry. i was wrong. it's not 300,000. the talley is now at half a million~
That's because San Diego is a mostly white people party town! (aka; shit kicking, jesus loving, magnetic support our troopy-groupies who are for the most part all in their own little jesus macrocosm) Gawd, I lived there through my teens and early twenties thinking is this all there is? Once you've left San Diego, unless you're insane, a jesus camp wannabe, or into the Jimmy Buffet buffet crowd you never want to go back! I think California should definitely separate into two distinct states mid-central valley, but I digress.. My apology to any San Diego resident that has suffered loss in the fire; maybe Jesus is telling you something. I know, I know, I’m going to hell for this right?
cheesesauce @ 8:
He's playing G#mM7b5addb2
I think if LA were flooded to the degree that NO was, people would be in much worse shape. However, they would still be far better cared for than the NO population was.
A reporter on CNN just called in from an open grocery store very close to the stadium, so some things are open, according to him.
Both events are miserable for those who are or were involved. That, they do have in common. Both have changed people's lives forever in ways those of not there can never understand.
So you people think that FEMA and Bush & co. can't produce another cluster**** out of this fire situation? Just wait and see, you might be surprised.
"Still, I can't help but think that other nations must look at these things -- the treatment of evacuees in one of America's richest cities (at least by housing price), and in one of its poorest -- and conclude that we're some kind of barbarians. The contrast between the wealth of water and food at Qualcomm, pictured at top of this post, with the scarcity at the Superdome is outrageous."
This was my thought also when I seen the picture accompanying the article. I can't help thinking that more would have been done not only after Katrina, but also with these wildfires, if most of the resources of our National Guard weren't being diverted into the Iraq occupation. Our country has become the biggest joke in the world. If you include the water shortage in Georgia, one could say our country has been officially caught with it's pants down by global warming. Don't forget, Lake Erie is drying up also. Maybe there would have been a modicum of preparation for such things if the Bush Administration hadn't been suppressing and spinning warnings by the scientists and researchers who seen these things coming.
I was always impressed with Chimpy's mastery of the Gee-plus chord. I know it was a Gee-plus, because the man is too fucking studpid to manage the intricacies of an A-minus chord.
Nero fiddled while Rome burned.
If you were homeless before the fires, will they still let you into the shelter...?
George is pickin and grinnin while California burns.
William Wallace @ 3:
Just like in New York before, during and after 911 - Republican Governor, Republican Mayor, Republican president......but 911 that was Bill Clinton's fault!
RE: My previous comment...
I don't mean to downplay the losses of those who live in SoCal (I have friends and acquaintances who live there), but I see hints of the same problems that persist in Florida. Man's supression of the natural cycle of fires due to human habitation leads to a massive buildup of flammable debris which then results in these raging fires. Forestry Dept. advocated removal of standing dead timber is ignored. Lack of water delivery equipment (planes, helicopters, etc.) This cannot be fought by "firemen" with sprayers on their backs - it only leads to death and mayhem as their efforts are dwarved by the vastness of it all. Isn't this the impetus behind federally funded emergency teams? Gutting of the infrastructure, public services, science, and common sense. Combined with drought and human activity.
Gee, Beav, isn't life great now that the NeoCons have "drowned government in the bathtub?"
Foresight is not their forte...
Udon Nomee @ 36:
Yes, and George's grandfather Barbara will come tell you how lucky you are.
I think a big part of the contrast is we had major fires just 4 years ago and put a system in place (reverse 911, mandatory evacuation plans, etc) to alleviate the problems. Also the fires are in very specific areas, so many people are not affected by the fires and are able to bring supplies and volunteer. Katrina, however, dropped rain ALL OVER New Orleans, there weren't a lot of people who could drive through the city with supplies. Those who had the means evacuated before the storm. I do think FEMA and the administration dropped the ball on Katrina, but I feel the fires here are a completely different set of circumstances -- apples and oranges, so to speak.
All three of my children live in San Diego. Not rich by any means, the two younger ones are college students and are and have been helping get meals to the stadium all day yesterday and today. They voluntarily left there apt. yesterday, but thier community is now mandatory evacuation. San Diego is a wonderful community and I'm proud of my kids and all the other people helping out and comming together. I will NEVER give Bush ANY kind of kudos! I don't care what he may do this time around, he's an asshole and loser, but yeah, I'm very proud of San Diegans and my kids! AND I think I have some respect for our govenor even though I never liked him. Why Bush and Chertof are even going to S.D is just such a waste! They are useless!!!
Kathy, they never miss an opporunity for Photo Ops!
Good reminder. I just took your inspiration and put a rant on my 'tiny' blog.
http://mohanblog.teluguoneradio.com/index.php
i.e. - The people of SoCal are handling this by themselves to some degree, and are ABLE to due to the lack of bacteria laden floodwaters, etc. What better way for BushCo to prop up their image than to take credit for other's work.
So very true, Dr Know! Discusting!
Although you do notice a bit of a difference between San Diego and New Orleans when you learn that the Del Mar Fairgrounds cannot accept any more horses as all 1,800 stalls are full. I don't remember any New Orleans horse rescues...
For what it is worth, global warming (I'm a believer) or not, this "catastrophe" was inevitable and long time coming and will occur all over the west in the coming decades. Although I feel SOME empathy for those losing their homes, I don't feel MUCH empathy.
Living in CA and having lived throughout the west, there are homes where there should never have BEEN homes and CDF requires a 100' clearance (most insurance companies 200'). I live in the foothills of Mariposa County and when I purchased my home promptly did some clearing to protect our home. If someone (or some community) didn't take the time to do so, I feel that they should live with their mistake by not being compensated.
In this case, the RepubliCONS have nothing to do with this disaster. Instead, it is the fault of the homeowners and their communities, instead.
they don't call it the devil wind for nuthin...wtf is boosh going to SD for?.....he IS useless.
I just heard they are pulling several hundred troops from guarding the border to help with the fires. That tells me Cal could use it's nat'l guard right now who are most likely in Iraq.
the out of touch Boy King is just now going out to LA? How long have these fires been burning out of control? Just like waiting for a week with Katrina, the Boy King doesn't like mingling with the American people even in their times of crisis. Boy King has to stay in DC just in case Key Lay or Scotter Libby needs a pardon or in case one of his corporate masters needs a favor. Boy King could care less about the American people just with using the American people's tax dollars to enrich his Crime Family's coffers and those of his corporate cronies.
Rusty Shackleford Says:
cheesesauce @ 8:
Btw, that photo of Arbusto shows him trying to play a “G” chord with the root on strings 1 & 6 on the third and fourth frets. Or is he just giving us the finger? What an idiot. He’s a Nero not a hero.
He’s playing G#mM7b5addb2
Why that's the very first chord I learned!
Sheesh @ 48:
I don't know if we can place blame... Rancho Bernardo, for instance, is not rural at all. Most houses are on very small lots and there is not very much brush. Still, the winds carry the embers and whoosh! My ex-hubby's house is landscaped in beautiful CONCRETE and we already know that many houses in his neighborhood (and perhaps his own) have been destroyed.
Jerry @ 34:
Not so sure that this is the type of fire that the Guard could help to fight. It's bein' driven by the winds, so fire breaks don't do much good. Maybe the Guard could be of some use in the relief operations, however. Anyone know if the Navy/Marine Corps in the SD area are bein' put to good use?
And, Jerry, while Lake Erie may indeed be dryin' up, it's Lake Superior that bothers me. Superior is down a foot from the norm right now. There were some mighty big fires in the eastern U.P. (Michigan's Upper Peninsula this year, around Newberry, and that's a very wet and swampy area- usually. We're hopin' fer a lot of snow in the Great Lakes basin this winter.
Sheesh @ 48:
I don't think now is the time to kick people........they have enough problems.......My sis in law lives in the affected areas in SD...I've been trying to get in contact....no reply yet.
Rusty Shackleford @ 30:
Ok smart guy. But what song is he attempting to play ? I figure it was Smoke On The Water or New Orleans Is Sinking by Canuck band The Tragically Hip. Canadian radio stations had the expected class to take New Orleans Is Sinking off playlists for a long time after Katrina.
If you like funny parodies ? Check out BlimpTV site. Funny stuff like Meet The Neos ( aka Beatles) or Papas Got A Brand New Bahgdad. The frightwing wont like it but who cares what they think anyways ?
cheesesauce @ 52:
Man, you're good. My first was E7#9sus4.
No offense, but when IS the time? People said the same thing after Katrina...
Col Kilgore @ 56:
He's trying to play "Old Blackwater"
Sheesh... you could clear around your house ...1000 yards.....and it still wouldn't help you in this one.so your point is moot.
That picture says it all.
The Clown Chimp of Crawford guitars while California burns.
Mudshark, I hope your sis is okay. You must be crazy with worry. :(
Sheesh @ 58:
ummmm...after the fire is out and the smoke has cleared...people are suffering right now....their losing everything.now is not the time to rag on anyone.
If I cleared a 100 yards on either side of my house, I'd have to have the neighbor's house removed.
My point isn't moot-maybe MY house shouldn't have been built in the chaparral that surrounds it, either. Maybe I shouldn't be compensated for fire damage if my home burns to the ground in a wildfire.
Too many homes and communities are being/have been built in high fire areas that government entities should NEVER have allowed to be built. ANYONE (democratic, independent, or republicon) that suggests otherwise are not only being hypocritical, but selfishly blind to the problem.
In fact, after these fires, look for insurance companies to NOT INSURE HOMES IN AREAS LIKE THE CA FOOTHILLS, SD, or other areas. ALL of CA fire insurance premiums went up a few years ago to pay for the large fires that happened then. My bet? Depending on how this thing goes, no new fire policies will offered in many areas around the state.
Sheesh @ 58:
I think people forget -- nature doesn't care what we do. Most of the fuel for these fires was in large uninhabited areas, fields and hills covered in chaparrel. Combine with a downed power line and Santa Ana winds and you've got yourself a firestorm. Beyond allowing our fires to regularly burn off the chapparel and burying all power lines, there's not much to be done to keep these fires from starting and going out of control. Blame whoever you want, but from here it looks like people are doing everything they can to manage the situation and keep death and injury and structure damage to a minimum.
pissed off patricia @ 62:
Thank you pissed off patricia......yeah a little info would be nice....I'm pretty sure everyone is ok......just not 100% sure...I have a feeling the house is gone...But I think their all ok..that's all that matters.
Rusty Shackleford @ 59:
Old Blackwater ... keep on killing
No bid contracts and accountability
Old Blackwater..keep on killing
Pull over ragheads.. or get run over by SUVs
Old Blackwater.. got no worries
President Fuckhead running absolute cover for me.
humble apologies to Doobie Bros.
Sheesh @ 48:
While there is some truth in what you say, I'm more inclined to place the blame on overzealous developers, real estate scams, and zoning departments hungering for revenue. When is the last time you had the opportunity to pick and choose where you home was built and how the surrounding area was managed? Most people have a job, they need to live somewhere in proximity to it. Ergo, you buy what and where the most conveinent development is for your situation. Only the "rich" build custom homes on wooded hillsides, barrier islands, and flood plains - and then bitch when they are destroyed by mudslides, fire, or hurricanes and tornados. But that is OK - they spread their excessive risks onto wiser, leveler heads through the mechanism known as the ponzi-scheme, psuedo-socialist insurance companies. FWIW.
Not to EVEN defend how Katrina was handled, because everything about that was and IS indefensible, but this is apples and oranges.
Different natural disasters, different geography, different circumstances in many ways for the evacuees.
Incomparable, really, and an insult to progressive thinkers.
Sheesh...give it a rest..........try a little compassion.....I hope you never have this happen to you...by your reasoning calif should never have been developed ...Like I said..they don't call it the devil wind for nuthin...As I'm sure you know..that's what the Native Americans called it.
Kind of makes me wonder who we'll blame when the next big earthquake hits. Oh, wait, we'll blame the contractors/engineers who designed our houses and roads and bridges, etc. The fact is, we are not all-powerful. Nature can always slap us down. We can alleviate some of it and learn for next time, but ultimately we are at the mercy of the Earth and the elements.
If you're white, you're alright. If you're black, you better step back. Now ain't that America... Republican style.
Dr. Know @ 70:
That's a good call on the urban plannin' side, Doc. If people don't think politics are involved they should check out Denny Hastert's real estate deals...and then check out the legislation he got passed that put a new highway exit right by his land.
BTW, yer in Georgia, right? How long before the kudzu starts burnin'? And how in the hell are any (potential) fires there gonna be put out?
Cripes, my fingers are dyslexic today...
Nevertheless, this too, shall end. And I sincerely hope the loss of life and property is held to a minimum. It's been a very bad 6 years in US history. Although I'm sure the administration considers it more of a comma...
The Malibu fire was set off by downed power lines. As usual, the fire companies were able to keep it under control.
The Orange County and San Diego fires -- FAR more destructive -- holocausts of flame blowing at sixty miles an hour. A quarter of a million people evacuated. NO sign of the "California National Guard.
And NO ACTION on logging out the tinder dry DEAD pines which ignited this inferno. The bark beetle devastation of Orange and San Diego pine trees has been known to the state and the federal government for five years. Those trees were the bright white torches you can see in the video coverage from the air. They should have been logged out, five years ago, to reduce the fire danger.
Instead, bridges not repaired and dikes not fixed under Bush (and the fake governor of California, as one of his first acts blocking and delaying the Bay Bridge seismic upgrade), now have a new iteration of the list.
JOBS, lots of them, could have been given to lots of young men and women to log out those dead trees, those fuses for a disaster.
When the Northridge quake happened, Schwarztika went on the Tonight Show and joked about how he and his body-builder pals damaged quake victims' homes in order to drive up the cost of repair.
He gave a press conference yesterday. Big deal. He did nothing to save those homes, the natural beauty of California, the critical vegetation to control mudslides (next in the pattern), absolutely stinking nothing.
Talked about Hydrogen cars and Blackwater, and made himself $121,285,903 in special interest pocket money, mostly from REAL ESTATE DEVELOPERS & BUILDERS.
So when the rest of America is paying for whatever payout the compassionate House of Representatives OKs against a stream of sewage from the Republicans, you have the Rapepublicans to thank, for acting in time to prevent another disaster -- that they wouldn't profit on sorrow some more by acting in time.
JC @ 15:
You didn't mention Blackwater. They're not in California, are they?
Looking at the contrasts from the other side of the Atlantic is shocking, to say the least.
Like some have mentioned in earlier comments: Black, poor and last but not least Democrtic voters vs. white, rich, Republican voters.
Mudshark you're right that if they are okay that's all that matters, but if they have lost their house, it has to be awful for them right now. Tell them someone in Florida is thinking about them.
Col Kilgore @ 56:
I think the song he's trying to play is a Johny Cash song that goes something like this: "How high's the water, Momma? Six foot high and rising"
RockmanEnough @ 78:
I'd be the first person to say the disparity in treatment was Bush's fault or FEMA's fault, but really it's just a different situation. Large areas of San Diego are NOT in trouble, and those of us in those areas are offering our services and donating to folks who've evacuated. So far as I know FEMA has nothing to do with it, it's all been local.
This is so depressing. The cons don't care that global warming is making these more frequent as long as they keep their "street cred" with CEI and other astroturf think tanks
Andy K @ 75:
Thanks, Andy. How've ya been. I still lurk occasionally, but it makes my head ache. :-(
Georgia is probably currently second only behind Florida in the "corporate/developer/politician" dealmaking crap that goes on in the background. We now have Gov Perdue, complete with his own shady history of backhanded land dealings and favoritism concerning corporate interests. It is considered de rigueur 'round these parts. Roads are routed through lands bought by "those in the know" years beforehand, and then are sold back to the government at "crony rates." When called on it, they argue that if you don't like it, Tough Shit. Become Governor like me... Oh, and if you work for the press, I'm making a call to your employer... You're Fired. Dixie Mobsters - tantamount to those in the REST of the country...
As for the fires, South GA is a mess, as you well know. I'm not sure what declaring a state of emergency is going to accomplish, but it looks good on the news, apparently. I live in Atlanta, and we don't "yet" have the problems that South Georgia and North Florida have. It is raining (first in months) as I type this. But it's been a hard summer, and I'm certain the FDs around here are glad for the rain, as insignificant as it is. Out two major lakes are 18 feet below normal. Alabama and Florida are rightly pissed that they recieve a trickle from the major waterways that run through town. Etc, Etc...
pissed off patricia @ 79:
Will do P.o.P
SAN DIEGO (AP) - Like Hurricane Katrina evacuees two years earlier in New Orleans, thousands of people rousted by natural disaster fled to the NFL stadium here, waiting out the calamity and worrying about their homes.
Has Barbara Bush been alerted???
pissed off patricia @ 79:
And in Norway, even. Hope you hear from them soon.
Peace
Paul in LA @ 77:
Nice post, Paul. And you couldn't be more correct about the logging. The national parks enviros now have COMPLETELY different ideas about cutting trees and brush. Now junipers and pine trees in particular are considered "gasoline."
I was in a Canadian national park restaurant overhearing a conversation with park officials who were talking about how they've all made a 180 about trees in the last six years. It was a crime punishable by jail time and a $250,000 fine to cut down a tree. Now, they were saying, they were hiring logging companies to come in and take trees out of the national parks, and couldnt do it fast enough. So I asked to join the conversation to find out more. They said the Wyoming/Idaho/Nevada fires in the late 90s woke their world up. They said one pine tree in a forest is a matchstick. Spruce not much better. The only trees they will save are fir. These were hard-core tree-huggers. They told me they dont want to see a pine tree within 100-200 feet of a house or cottage, if the owners insist on having them.
I said the Wyoming fires did that? They said that and someone finding photographs of the national parks taken at the turn of the 20th C. They realized the Indians regularly burned out the forests to create plains and reduce the trees, and it shocked them. They told me that if the Indians had still been managing the forests when the Wyoming/Idaho/Nevada fires started -- which burned millions and millions of acres -- they never would have happened.
Is there anything that global warming doesn't cause nowadays? It's become our "terraism". A spotted owl can't take a shit in the woods without someone saying it's global warmings fault.
Combine dry, mountainous regions ... which are supposed to burn now and then, by the way ... with a gazzillion people with needs for power lines, automobiles, etc., all growing in population and sprawling their footprint further and further into the land, and you're going to have fires.
If anyone here is from Rancho Bernardo and needs to check the status of your home, see http://genesis.sannet.gov/infospc/templates/cd5/images/pdf/homes_destroy...
It's the list so far of houses destroyed in RB according to Brian Maienschein's office. Just FYI.
Okay, we gotta give credit where credit is due. Chertoff didn't leave the fire scene and go to a meeting in Atlanta at the CDC just as all hell was breaking out. Remember that's what he did right in the middle of the worst part after Katrina. So I guess he has improved a little.
Oh, and Andy,
Little did I realize when I visited SoCal in 1987, that speculators had already determined to turn Atlanta into the LA of the South - replete with all the attendant (lack of comprehensive)development woes. I moved through FL for 10 years trying to avoid the "developer frenzy." I eventually gave up... Then the Bush administration happened. I'm stuck now trying to figure where to move, in or out of the US, that has sufficent water, weather, and lack of overzealous development - combined with a total lack of interest by those who create such messes.
Paul in LA @ 77:
Good post, Paul.
You're right about the pine tree logging.
National park forestry people now know as a result of the Wyoming/Idaho/Nevada fires that devastated millions and millions of acres in the late 90s that pine trees and juniper are "gasoline." I had forestry tree-huggers tell me that they've done a 180 on this. The only trees they like are fir. They would like to see every pine tree eliminated from all national parks. Spruce aren't much better.
Paul in LA @ 77:
You're so right about logging out those trees. By removing the dead and damaged trees, it would have removed fuel for this fire and it would have decreased the spread of this bark beetle. Well, guess fire will remove the bark beetle.
I hope that you are safe. It is so sad to see people lose their homes. I had tornado damage to my home many years ago and that was no wear near the damage these fires are causing. It still made me cry when I saw the damage to my house, my home.
Paul in LA @ 77:
Excellent point. I live in the mountains of Oregon. We have downed timber which should be removed, but there's too much squabbling because of worry that the loggers will go in to remove downed timber and grab everything else while they're at it. So it's an impasse.
I do worry about fire, even if I'm not surrounded by forest, although every year the helicopters are constant overhead as they bring water to some fire or another. This year the fires were so close, that everyone was coughing and we had a constant haze in the air. I remember looking south and seeing thick dark smoke billowing in the air above the mountains. It was a spooky sight, and I can only begin to imagine what they're going through in California.
As for the comparison to Katrina, no doubt in my mind that money makes all the difference. You can only protect what you can afford to protect.
RockmanEnough @ 86:
thank you........that makes me feel good.
Paul in LA.....your post make sense...that is a major part of the problem.
mudshark @ 94:
And a Canadian in Korea. Houses can be rebuilt: lives can't. Stay safe.
hareli @ 91:
National park forestry people now know as a result of the Wyoming/Idaho/Nevada fires that devastated millions and millions of acres in the late 90s that pine trees and juniper are "gasoline." I had forestry tree-huggers tell me that they've done a 180 on this. The only trees they like are fir. They would like to see every pine tree eliminated from all national parks. Spruce aren't much better.
The fires burning in S. CA are NOT in National Park areas.
Forestry people (no matter where they are) are tree huggers? Nope. They are loggers in disguise. How do I know? I used to work in National Parks - wife still does. The true tree huggers in the NPS of which you speak keep the disguised loggers in check.
It is too bad that "supposed" liberals agree with the premise that we should log out national parks where ecosystems are supposed to be intact - that includes fire - for the benefit of fire "protection".
WOW!....thank you ,thank you, thank you.......thank you everyone.....geezz ....I don't know what else to say.
Sheesh @ 97:
As long as you are making a distinction between large quantities of dead wood and live timber, I agree. Even total removal of all standing dead wood can have an effect on populations of woodpeckers, etc. It's supposed to be forest MANAGEMENT - not exploitation. But such is the way of modern capitalism...
Downed timber is part of the forest ecosystem. Fires are part of nature. It destroys diseased and dying plants, and keeps disease and pest infestations at a minimum. It opens up the forest to new green growth which is fire resistant.
Some seeds need to go through fire scarification to break dormancy in order to spout. Trying to 'manage' forests the way they've been 'managed' is a big part of the problem.
Fire is not the enemy. Man's mismanagement of nature is.
I guess it's true if your white and rich you get water and various supplies...if your poor and black you get nothing and if you try to get something so you don't die they will shoot you.
I love in California, I'm about a mile away from Stevenson's Ranch but not in any Danger...unless Blackwater comes to help us, in that case we're all fucked!
that should have been live in California...but I love here too
miss_kitty @ 100:
Coupled with unsustainable overpopulation.
Man's mismanagement of just about everything has contributed to most of the folly of the past 6 years - and beyond. Apparently, we're morons. ;-)
Nature eventually deals with such beings...
cheesesauce @ 2:
I wonder if Bill'O-job will go out there and ask their kids if it's just like camping?
miss_kitty @ 100:
miss kitty I agree with you for the most part...well..actually i agree with you completely....but we can always plant saplings.but a forest is one thing and So Cal is another..these things happen here from time to time.And I actually agree with Sheesh to an extent....
mudshark @ 95:
Okay, muddy, Paul & everyone else, I normally agree with ya, but...
I'm not the guy who would chain himselt to trees, I'm not a member of the Monkey Wrench Gang, I just feel that when humans encroach on nature, it's the humans that must compromise. Now, maybe I'm mistaken, but aren't those pines native to the area? If so, the natural ecosystem- both flora and fauna- are dependent on those logs bein' recycled to the earth. The bark beetles feed, the birds eat the bark beatles, and along the food chain we go. The remains of the tree add nutrients to the soil, plants grow, rabbits eat the grass...once again, along the food chain we go. And this is the way it was fer hundreds and thousands- if not millions- of years, until humans discovered agriculture and began growin' at exponential rates, while most other life on the planet was crowded out- much of it to the point of extinction already.
I know it ain't exactly comfortable, but when do we face the facts and admit that it's time to build our communities vertically rather than horizontally and let the rest of the livin' world exist?
CNN is reporting a new fire closer to LA.
mudshark @ 105:
But even SoCal, though it isn't exactly lush, supports, in it's natural state, many forms of life. We aren't talkin' about the Sahara here.
BTW, keepin' fingers crossed fer yer family. Gotta be rough.
mudshark @ 105:
I posted what I posted because I do have botanical/forestry/science and application education and experience. Downed trees REALLY are a lot more than fire fodder. They are essential to the maintenance of a healthy forest ecosytem. I just wanted people who were posting to remove them that info. Planting small trees doesn't add back what taking away downed trees contribute.
Mudshark, I read upthread. I hope your sister is ok. I was out walking (It's gotta be 70+ here in Seattle today), and ran across a couple gardening like crazy. I found out that the missus's 80 year old parents are down there and they can't reach them. Insanely gardening was the only thing to get them out of the house and away from the TV.
My thoughts go out to them and positively EVERYONE who is dealing with this. The cause is not an issue at this point. The result is.
I've lived in Southern California most of my life. Santa Ana winds and fires are a part of life here, always have been, always will be. The intensity of these fires may have been caused by draught and temperatures a little higher than normal for this time of year but its far too early to attribute these fires to global warming.
As far as the comparisons between these fires and Katrina, totally inapt. In N.O., everybody was affected by the hurricane and the failure of the levees. I live in South Pasadena and work in downtown L.A. I am totally unaffected by the fires. Can't even see them from my high tower office. The skies are a little darker than normal, that's all. Just got off the phone with my stepmom in northern San Diego county. There's ash and smoke in the air but she's in no danger of fire.
Our Jekyll & Hyde Governmental response 2 the San Diego fires and Katrina , , ,
Zee difference' is , echh-echhh ; Black 'N White !
America continues 2 sing " Ebony 'n Ivory " with a blind-fold on , , ,
"News" NOT at Eleven .
BoiseNick @ 112:
Again, I don't think government (except local and some state) had much to do with the response in San Diego, so I don't think it was a black/white issue. Most of the emergency response is LOCAL, people here pitching in, donating. They're actually TURNING do-gooding people away from Qualcomm stadium because they are over-supplied with blankets, cots, medicines, etc. FEMA has nothing to do with this response, and black/white had nothing to do with it. It's just that most citizens have not had to evacuate, and therefore we are able to contribute. Not like in New Orleans where most anyone with means had left the city. Quite a different scenario.
O.C. didn't get hit that hard (that is fewer homes). Given the discussion if clearing would've helped I thought this statement interesting:
"It is an absolute truth -- if we had more air resources we would have been able to control this fire," said Orange County Fire Authority Chief Chip Prather. -- O.C.'s Santiago fire rages
Clearing underbrush is one thing. Should do that before talking about cutting down "dead" trees.
I'm not sayin remove all dead trees.........I'm sayin manage the areas in close proximity to people...that's all.....
Sheesh @ 97:
The fires burning in S. CA are NOT in National Park areas.
Forestry people (no matter where they are) are tree huggers? Nope. They are loggers in disguise. How do I know? I used to work in National Parks - wife still does. The true tree huggers in the NPS of which you speak keep the disguised loggers in check.
It is too bad that "supposed" liberals agree with the premise that we should log out national parks where ecosystems are supposed to be intact - that includes fire - for the benefit of fire "protection".
Correct about South CA of course.
But the forestry tree-huggers I was referring to were some Canadian National Parks guys I talked to. I wrote a long post about this but it got chewed up so I wrote the short version above.
I overheard these guys talking in a restaurant and asked to join the conversation. I was staying with friends in a western national park. The Parks guys were devastated by what happened during the Wyoming/Idaho/Nevada fires because it shook up long-held beliefs about forestry management. In canada, where I was, if you cut down a tree you were subject to jail time and a $250,000 fine. The 90s fires in the US corresponded with someone in Canada finding rare photos of the national parks at the turn of the 20th C. They were shocked to see the plains and cleared areas, now dense with trees. After some investigation, they found out that the Indians regularly burned the forest in a distinct pattern to open it up and renew growth. The old photos taken from the top of a mountain range showed a completely different view than what they thought they were preserving. They consulted the Elders in the province to find out how they did it and what kind of cycle they used, how they controlled it; then they mimicked it. In areas where there were cottages, they brought in logging companies to clear the area for free in return for removing the downed trees from the park: the trees they'd marked. All pine. No fir. Some spruce.
According to the Indian plan, they instituted a plan to cull every pine tree they could from the parks. BUT. Any tree (dead or alive) that had become a "habitat" for woodpeckers or squirrels or other animals could not be touched. They said pine trees should not be within 100 feet of a house or cottage. They also told me that one exploding pine tree could shoot embers 1/2 mile and ignite more fires because their trunks are "gasoline columns." They make cottage owners put on metal roofs as result. And when I was traveling around the park I could see where forest fires had raged through the area years before by the burn marks high up the fir tree trunks. They survived.
I dont know about US forestry people but anyone who has traveled to the western Canadian national parks knows that those guys are dead serious about their trees.
========================
What are they not reporting?
There is suspicion about how many fire thats are going.
Big government building was broken into and many laptops with sensitive data stolen.
The police are so busy evacuating people, crime in running rampant.
In other news...
bush vetos SCHIP...too expensive
bush to cut funding for people with low incomes heating cost this winter...too expensive.
Good news though. bush is giving Mexico 1.4 billion for their drug war.
My post #116 is unclear.
Sheeshs' remarks end here:
"It is too bad that “supposed” liberals agree with the premise that we should log out national parks where ecosystems are supposed to be intact - that includes fire - for the benefit of fire “protection”."
I start with:
"Correct about South CA of course."
Andy K @ 107:
What you state is true, but man's encroachment and his demands for "stuff" (to paraphrase George Carlin) has altered nature's formula. We either have to stop breeding and reduce the population, or resign ourselves to the fact that nature has to be managed somewhat in order to sustain our lifestyles. Building "UP" might help, but I don't personally have a desire to live in such an arrangement. As with all things, and as demonstrated by this thread, there are no easy answers. So we keep doing what we always do...
Thing Fish @ 114:
I think what yer talkin' about is cuttin' trees to create a fire break. The nature of these fires, from my knowledge, is that they're bein' carried by the winds, with embers travelin' great distances over and beyond one stand of flammable material and landin' on another. So, no, cuttin' trees to halt the path would do no good.
What we've been talkin' about, however, is the dead trees where the fires began- out on the fringes of the populated areas. This would prevent the fires from beginnin' at all- but at what cost to the ecosystem?
Janet @ 117:
Um... where are you getting this info? This is fire season here, we pretty much expect something to go up in flames, just not so much. The Santa Ana winds spread the flames, though. So far there is no evidence of any fire being intentionally set, and I've not heard any reports so far of crime. We have police and the few CA National Guard available guarding the evacuated neighborhoods. So where are you getting these notions?
Dr. Know @ 119:
I opt for the bold type solution.
Dr. Know @ 119:
Actually, Dr. Know, the entire population of the world could be put in Texas at around 1,100 sq ft per person. So a 6-person family would have approx 6,600 sq ft to themselves.
It's not population that is the problem. It's knowledge of the land, the ecosystem, willingness to bow to the limitations and restrictions of an area, and good 'ole IQ.
Andy K @ 120:
It isn't really trees but chapparel that's been fueling the fires. Some trees, yes, but mostly the pervasive scrub brush.
with all this fire and drought...not a good looking future.Start CONSERVING WATER!....let your lawn go for a few days more...don't wash the car as much.....and only flush when you have to.OH...and don't let the water run when you brush your teeth....it all adds up...thanks.
hareli @ 123:
Population is a burden not because we don't have the ROOM for the people, but because each person adds to the use of resources. We may be able to fit the entire population of the world in Texas (though I've never heard that statement before). It's the amount of land and resources used to support that population that is the issue. Each person uses a HUGE amount of resources (especially us U.S.ers), and as population grows so does the negative impact on the planet.
Sluggirl @ 124:
and that scrub brush is like gasoline once it gets going....
Andy K @ 120:
In the Angora fire clearing the undergrowth apparently helped. And houses were the chief source of embers PDF. Clearing forests near houses can help. But when the houses become the primary fuel then I think the problem isn't with the trees.
Sluggirl @ 121:
San Diego Police dept employee = family member
Dr. Know @ 119:
Yer right- ZPG, or we're doomed. The same with vertical livin'. Accept these compromises or watch the human race disappear- and watch humans take much of the rest of life on Earth down the drain along with them.
I haven't pushed my "homepage" (which, I must point out, I have no involvement with) in a while, but click on my name at the top of this post...Read the Q&A...Ya might wanna read the books, too...Lot's of interestin' questions raised, Quinn doesn't claim to have the answers...but it's intriguin' stuff, imo.
but this is a natural habitat to many species.......so where do you draw the line?..I heard a couple of years ago that diamond backs were dissapearing in So Cal....then it rained and So Cal had some flash floods....then all of a sudden...there was diamond backs on the beach....ON THE BEACH...IN SO CAL.....there is no easy answer.
hareli @ 123:
Technically, this may be true. (I've not done the math.) But with our current methods of water management, agriculture and lifestyles, this ain't gonna work. The US population is a diverse lot, and you aren't going to get many people to live elbow to elbow in massive housing projects. Where are you going to get the water to supply a 100 million person city. What do you do with the garbage, the sewage, etc. Many portions of the US are not able to support the density required. And if you think for a minute that you will ever get rural southerners to live in anything akin to NYC, you're dreaming. What, no SUVS? Banish the thought...
As for the IQ's, or even common sense, I'm with ya 100% on that one...
Once again Bush turns a blind eye to Americans.
Andy K @ 130:
Andy K....vertical living?
Sounds good as long as it's not in an earthquake prone area......like here.
If Calif wasn't such a nice place to live.....I wouldn't be here.....but I imagine alot of people say that.Such is life in Calif.We know the risks....it's worth it.
mudshark @ 134:
Personally I advocate diagonal living.
Sluggirl @ 136:
I've been looking for an Escher style house. Perhaps a bit more room in an alternate geometric dimension.
Dr. Know @ 137:
Might I suggest you try The Mystery Spot?
Sluggirl @ 136:
horizontal....preferably with with my wife on top of me.
mudshark @ 131:
Yeah, natural to many, includin' humans. But humans don't live naturally in many places anymore, and haven't fer about 8-10 thousand years. WE started a land grab from other species- other human cultures, too- with the advent of agriculture. Instead of co-existing with other species, we began to dominate. Instead of species populations all remainin' static (in similar climate as the neolithic age), human population grew at exponential rates while many other species failed. They failed because we, in many cases, take their sources of food away. Not because we eat their food, or even necessarily use their food fer any good purpose, but because we need the land to grow our own food.
Anthropologists believe there were about 1M humans(iirc) durin' the neolithic age. But with the food surpluses brought on by the advent of agriculture came increases in human population. Slowly, at first, but we're now at the point where human population doubles in half the time since the last doubling- and the next time it doubles will take half the time of the last, and on and on, util population doubles in a year, then half a year, then 3 months.....
And all this time we are clearing the land of life that we don't want or need so we can raise the food we want or need to sustain our own culture- AGRICULTURE. And sometimes the life we think we don't need is the life that is actually savin' us from ourselves.
Andy K @ 130:
Thanks, Andy K, I'm looking it over now. Always been an "alternative" thinker, as best as I can be with a compromised brain anyway. I fear modern society is speeding down the tracks of environmental chaos, but my neighbors think I'm nuts. I don't commute. I believe in small, sustainable housing, and I don't buy disposable crap from China. Heck, I don't even go shopping. Oh, the horrors!
I buy things that last, or I build my own. I reuse and recycle. I refuse to throw things away that can be fixed. (I made aliving for many years repairing "stuff" others discarded, such as military surplus electronic test equipment - until everything became so poorly made it wasn't worth repairing.) I maximize the lifespan of all products which require energy to produce. My last cars were 20+ years old and had 500,000 and 365,000 miles on them, and I still regret selling them. The new ones are crap. Can't find a date in Atlanta because everyone has their nose stuck up a cell phone and won't give you the time of day if you don't own (on credit) the latest, greatest CRAP. Nope, I don't fit here very well...
Sluggirl @ 138:
Actually, I've been there. Wasn't entirely convinced it wasn't a tourist "trick", however. Perhaps I'm jaded by the proliferation of such stuff along I-75 in FL, N GA, and TN.
Sluggirl @ 138:
Or, Doc, ya can go here:
http://www.stignace.com/attractions/mysteryspot/
Not as much travel, and no earthquakes. Blizzards, mebbe, and not to far from this summer's ragin' Newberry Fire....
mudshark @ 139:
How's about this variation on the vertical/horizontal thing?
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Chinese+basket+job
Dr. Know @ 141:
I have suggested this before: Get yerself outta Georgia!
Andy K @ 143:
Well, those are interesting, but I was kinda hoping for an alternate dimension. As for the weather, I couldn't make it through a winter in S. NJ, I'm sure I wouldn't make it in Michigan. And the mosquitoes in Wisconsin and Minnesota are appalling. At least the Great Lakes haven't caught on fire lately...
Which is why there are millions living in the forests of SoCal and we are having this discussion.
Andy K @ 144:
Let's hope that the intended female hasn't done too many Kagles in her life.
It could be a painful experience to have your willy twisted off in a fit of orgasmic spasms while performing this ... uh... act.
I live in La Jolla... (near San Diego)... so far we have been lucky. Our neighbors in Del Mar Heights have been evacuated. If they cannot stop that fire it will burn right through the multi million dollar custom homes in Rancho Sante Fe to the ocean. For those who are not aware Rancho Sante Fe is the most expensive area to live in California --- even more so than Malibu or Beverly Hills or Atherton and Belvedere in the Bay Area.
As far as the evacuation goes and the comparisons to Katrina there really are none. San Diego and it's infrastructure are intact. I just came from Qualcomm Stadium and there are more cars showing up with people dropping off supplies to the evacuees than what is seems there are evacuees. Republican or Democrat we can all be proud of our fellow Americans there. And no the fucking worthless FEMA is not there and not around. Also their was a collective groan from the evacuees when it was learned that numbnuts was coming out for his obligatory photoshoot. I heard this with my own ears. San Diego County is not as conservative as many think... it a nice shade of purple and is turning bluer with each election cycle.
Noecon @ 147:
Well, I've always believed that people in the NE and CA were a little quicker to catch on than the rest of the country. And I love the weather in CA. Just not the water wars, the traffic, or the artificial rolling blackouts.
Definitely glad to know that life goes on, even if massively encumbered, and the victims in CA are not suffering the same fate as those of Katrina. While the property losses are bound to be high, at least you have some dignity left.
Andy K @ 144:
AndyK yer killin me....oh was that Tom Delay who went to Thailand? Or was it Lush Rimbaughlls?....no wait..it couldn't be Lush......it was a woman.
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