Blackwater got immunity?
By Steve Benen Monday Oct 29, 2007 10:45amDan Froomkin noted today, "In the wake of last month's shooting of 17 civilians by Blackwater gunmen in Baghdad, the Bush administration is finally acknowledging -- more than four years late -- that private security contractors in Iraq should operate under the law."
But as it turns out, it might be more scandalous than just a giant loophole in the law.
The State Department promised Blackwater USA bodyguards immunity from prosecution in its investigation of last month's deadly shooting of 17 Iraqi civilians, The Associated Press has learned.
As a result, it will likely be months before the United States can _ if ever _ bring criminal charges in the case that has infuriated the Iraqi government.
"Once you give immunity, you can't take it away," said a senior law enforcement official familiar with the investigation.
A State Department spokesman did not have an immediate comment Monday.
Stay tuned.
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Once you give immunity, you can’t take it away,” said a senior law enforcement official familiar with the investigation
Yeah, but it isn't the state department's to give.
This should surprise no one.
Did anyone expect anything different?
fuckers........
It's just like the crooks and criminals in power now.
condi doesn't have the authority to grant immunity....
so it's null and void.
You got to wonder, if they had accidentally shot and killed one of the diplomats that they were escorting(AKA white people) do you think they would still get immunity?
"Yeah, but it isn’t the state department’s to give."
Right and the DoJ is apparently reinterviewing people without reference to DoS interviews so they might be able to prosecute despite the DoS immunity which has no bearing in law.
Paraguay doesn't extradite. Blackwater can always relocate there. Republicans are quietly slinking away to South America and Mexico in record numbers anyway.
Just as your own lawyer cannot give you immunity, the State Department cannot grant immunity either. The Justice Department could give immunity and the Bush administration could easily get one of their political appointments in the Justice Department to grant such a request.
However the administration wants EVERYONE associated with the Executive Branch to be able to grant immunity, so they chose to have the State Department administer such privilege.
Of course it's all illegal and they should all be thrown into jail for such an abuse of power, but the lefties haven't been getting their way lately.
Anything the state or justice dept.'s do will be to cover the asses of the shrub co. war profiteering cronies. I will be throughly surprised if anyone involved sees so much as a sternly worded letter.
You mean to tell me that there are actually people who are genuinely surprised that cheney's praetorian guard are above the law?
My understanding is that all contractors in Iraq were given the across the board immunity from prosecution by Paul Bremer years ago. This is from a conversation that John Cusack had with author Naomi Klein ("The Shock Doctrine") on the Huffington Post:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-cusack/the-real-blackwater-scand_b_67...
Cusack: So let's talk about Paul Bremer, who single-handedly imposed many of the laws that are still on the books in Iraq, including the one giving Blackwater and other private contractors immunity from prosecution -- in effect putting them above the law. He set the tone, as well as the legal structure for what's happening now, yes?
Klein: He did -- but with the full support of Rumsfeld, from whom he was getting his orders directly, and from Bush. Blaming Bremer is kind of an easy out, which is probably why some of the war's architects have taken to scapegoating him for everything that has gone wrong.
Maliki is working on changing Iraqi law so that they no longer have immunity. All of their firearms will need to be licensed and they will have to respect the authority of Iraqi security forces at checkpoints.
That said, I doubt if there will be many Blackwater employees in Iraq by the time the law gets passed. They'll probably be on their way to Iran.
None of this surprises me anymore, its more that I don't feel like I can do anything to stop it from happening. I mean there is a Democratic Congress in there that supposedly is against all of this, and yet, I have seen them do very little to actually stand up and make a change
We should all grab our slingshots and wiffle ball bats and TAKE OUR COUNTRY BACK! Nothing will change without a Revolution of the People! Revolutions can be peaceful or bloody, but either way we HAVE to do something!
L.A. Confidential @ 7:
Hmmmm...didn't some guys from a similar political party in Germany circa 1940's flee to South America as well? Yet ANOTHER parallel....seems to be a shitload of parallels between this administration and Nazi Germany....
I wish I had immunity from being prosecuted for committing crimes. Then I could commit all the crimes I want. That would be cool.
Great, we need the lawyers to save us from our government again. Was immunity even a legal concept to be conveyed? I doubt immunity for murders would withstand legal scrutiny so lets get on with the show. The US may not employ murderers.
A State Department spokesman did not have an immediate comment.
\*)*&) ^%&%&*%*)+_%&&**#!!!!
Hopefully the Iraqi government will rescind their immunity. It wasn't the State Department's place or mandate to give, nor was it the U.S. of A.'s to give... There is a government in Iraq and they didn't give immunity, to the best of my knowledge. What they've done is horrendous and criminal. It's called murder, plain and simple. Arrest those responsible, try them, and imprison them if they're found guilty. They can serve their time in an Iraqi jail.
the junta treats the government like a giant lemonade stand
rasta @ 4:
It would make sense that a federal judge can override the executive branch's grants to immunity since immunity would only seem to mean that the attorney general wouldn't bring up charges. Also, it can't grant them immunity from Iraqi courts since the state department has no jurisdiction there.
If a state department can grant anyone immunity then by all means they can say the President is immune from any laws and can do whatever he likes. Granting people immunity from murder is an abuse of power and subject to the impeachment process.
liberalNmoderation @ 15:
Diabolical, huh?! Very, very close in so many ways...
As others have said, the State Department has no authority to grant immunity. Blackwater can argue though that since this bogus de facto immunity has been given they do not have to cooperate with any investigation into the matter. Basically we're seeing the Bush administration work outside the law yet again. In a society where the rule of law was respected someone higher up in the State Department would be forced for resign for this monkey business.
Just exactly who is responsible for this? We need to know so that we can get the spelling of the name right on the Medal of Freedom.
Drshatterhand @ 1:
That is what we need to remember - immunity from the laws of the United States is not theirs to give away.
They say the Iraqis should stand up for themselves, but when they attempt to deal with their problems, they are told by the Americans that they have no authority in their own country. Does anyone else see a problem with this?
"Once you give immunity you can't take it away." Yeah, because we're, like, a nation that follows the Rule of Law... SHEESH.
liberalNmoderation @ 15:
this administration and Nazi Germany... one and the same :(
Extraordinary rendition would be too good for these guys.
The 1st time they did this that I know of was with Ollie North and Iran/Contra/CIA cocaine smuggling. Worked like a charm in full view of the American Sheeple.
Peace.
Are the "U.S. Contractors" in Iraq also subject to immunity if/when they fail to preform
within established guidelines? The reason I ask is because Yahoo News reported this
morning that the largest dam in Iraq is in extremlely poor condition and could collapse.
U.S. Contractors were funded $27Million to repair the dam, but(surprise, surprise) the
reconstruction of the dam has been marred by in incompetence and mismanagment, so
as many as 500,000 citizens of Mosul and Baghdad are at risk should the dam collapse.
By the way, the news reports that the dam is "the most dangerous in the World."
Land of the free (to kill with impunity) and home of the brave (because I am immune to prosecution).
Enough of this quibbling! I want to know one thing:
When is the Blackwater Experience coming to Xbox?!?!?!
/consumer whore gallows humor
Bush must be thinking - who cares? It's just a bunch of dark skinned Iraqis that died. He probably had a good laugh hearing about the slaughter.
Not exactly shocking news coming out of the worst,most corrupt,U.S. administration ever.I`ve been ranting about these cretins since before the 2000 coup.These thugs have absolutely no honor.They attack 12 year old and 2 year old children over a 35 billion dollar program( over five years) that could help kids ,while giving immunity from prosecution to the Amway Gestapo before and after gunning down 17 Iraqi citizens.
They hate us because of our freedoms? That`s a bunch of bullshit.I`ve talked to several Iraqi women ,and they don`t hate me.They hate Bush and Cheney and the neocon bloodbath party with their 24- 30% brain dead,beer swilling support.They hate people who make up concepts such as "Islamofascism" in order to justify a genocidal assault on the people of the Middle East who have done nothing to harm this country,but are lodging on the oil the bloody bastards need to enrich themselves as they destroy the earth.
God Bless America?Not the America I grew up in.
Good night and good luck.
Not so fast...perhaps (and hopefully). There is a diary at DKos up about how the State Department can't give immunity. State doesn't have the authority, doesn't have the ability, to give immunity to anyone on anything. The diary cites a CNN source.
Hopefully this story turns out to be true and the bastards can be nailed here AND in Iraq (just as soon as the Iraqi government signs the immunity rescension into law).
krome @ 6:
Someone pointed out to me that DOS does have the power to grant diplomatic immunity. I'm wondering if that's what they mean?
“Once you give immunity, you can’t take it away,” said a senior law enforcement official familiar with the investigation.
And, apparently, once we elect a guy to the Presidency, we're not allowed to take that away, either.
Do you really think that Bush and DOS won't find a way around this too?
If the Democrats go after Bush on this one, they will be endangering the people who protect the diplomats, and thus want America to lose in Iraq.
Jan. 20, 2009 can't come soon enough
What is gallows humour anyway, forgetting to anchor the other end of the rope the hangman's noose is attached to?
Bonkers @ 34:
Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare ... coming out November 9.
I kid you not.
Seriously, though, it won't include immunity or million-dollar paychecks for making sure Condi doesn't pop a heel on her Ferragamo shoes ...
So this "immunity" means that Blackwater employees literally have a "license to kill" from the U.S. government.
Once they figure out the Tillman case then they will solve September murders. Waiting............for the eighth investgation
E in Md @ 38:
I think Blackwater is trying to claim they get the Garrity rights given to police officers so whatever they said needs to be sealed.
liberalNmoderation @ 15:
Yes they had secret escape routes, called ratlines, out of Germany to South America.
L.A. Confidential @ 7:
Is this true.I was thinking of going there,but not now.I live on a Rethug street taken over in the last 15 years by their "I Want More Stuff Division" posing as nice young professionals who love their children and beer.
Talking to these people is like talking to the back of a bus.These folks are already immune to most ideas.
I guess I`ll have to look elsewhere other than South America.Isn`t that where the Nazis went?
sully18 @ 47:
That is one of the best descriptions of modern conservatives I've ever read. Spot-freakin'-on.
BBC is reporting the blackwater-grant-of-immunity-to-Blackwater was "improper."
There can be retroactive changes to FISA to change the law; why not retroactive changes to grants of immunity?
Rusty Shackleford @ 16:
Damn! That would be cool wouldn`t it. I wouldn`t murder because that`s too permanent,but I would never need money again.I could be like Robin Hood.Thanks for the tip,Randy.
Now we have soldiers in jail for following orders but Blackwater get immunity for murder.
No wonder we have no Justice System in the US. Connie Rice can give immunity to the murders but the United Nations is going to bring charges and will charge the Bush Administration with War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity. Rummy can't travel out of the US because he'd be arrested for his War Crimes. I hope Rummy forgets about Canada and Mexico and goes there as he will be arrested and sent to France and Germany.
Let's see...
Terminally ill people using medical marijuana to make their final days more comfortable have their homes raided, are jailed and prosecuted but if you're a war profiteering soldier of fortune and you happen to murder someone in a foreign country while you're on a bender or you just feel like shooting at passing cars to up the body count, you get full immunity from prosecution in BOTH countries and no one can touch you.
It's all ok because I'm sure jebus says so somewhere. Just ask a fundie they'll find it for you.
...Sorry for ranting.
Erik Prince is a war criminal, as are the Blackwater employees who work for him.
sully18 @ 47:
In Mexico and South America the rethugs have done the same thing. There are gated communities popping up everywhere. The locals mow and manicure their lawns and clean houses just like here in the states.
So they offered immunity even though they don't have authority to do so. I think they knew exactly what they were doing. Just like il duce of crawford, they are ignoring the rule of law. Folks we have us an old fashioned fascist regime.
Having a problem with this claim, "Once immunity is granted nothing can be done." No, that only deals with evidence. All that evidence gathered under the "improper grant of immunity" can be sealed, and other changes can be brought.
1. Redaction Rule
There is something called a Kastigar Hearing:
<blockquote"indictment upheld although defendant granted use immunity by testifying before grand jury because Kastigar hearing sufficient to determine whether grand jury improperly used immunized testimony" 90 Geo. L.J. 1305
This permits any internal records [evidence, tapes, audio recordings, video, written records, notes, or other things Blackwater employees created -- before the grant of immunity -- to be admitted for review. Some testimony gathered -- under the improper immunity -- can be redacted.
2. Independent Detection Rule
"evidence admissible because government sustained burden of showing it acquired evidence used to indict defendant independently of defendant's immunized statements" [U.S. v. Cantu, 185 F.3d 298, 301-03 (5th Cir. 1999) ]
3. Immunity Grant Is Not Total
The grant of immunity -- even when improper -- is not total:
4. Independent Evidence, Gathered Outside Immunity-Related-investigation Can Be Used To Indict Blackwater Employees For Perjury
Immunity grants relate to the evidence presented at trial; without immunity, someone can claim they can invoke the 5th Amendment. But it doesn't go the opposite way when that evidence gathered under a promise of immunity is then sealed; Blackwater employees improperly granted immunity can be still compelled to testify before a Grand Jury, where they must invoke their 5th Amendment right against self-incrimination. Compelling witnesses to provide evidence during a preliminary inquiry does not mean that the witness is granted immunity before a Grand Jury.
However, if there is a new investigator brought into the nexus, and there is no immunity granted for the new investigation, then Blackwater can be investigated using non-tained evidence.
5. Selective Application/Non-Application of Law
This "immunity claim" is linked with the 5th Amendment; yet Blackwater has implicitly argued "it's not subject to any law -- either Iraqi or US law." How can it have it both ways: Arguing that it can 'rely' on a promise of immunity; but then claim it is not subject to those law? Blackwater, in arguing it not "subject" to any law, doesn't seem to have solid legal ground when arguing it "relied" on any assurance under that law.
Anyone else getting sick of the media claims that activities like these are getting done by "departments"? I want to know WHO granted immunity, WHO okayed it, WHO was aware of it, etc. etc.
Rusty Shackleford @ 48:
I second that! And don't forget what Sully18 went on to say: "These folks are already immune to most ideas." Yes! Anything outside their limited world view? They want no part of it.
Actually, as you read through, the story line becomes familiar: in an effort to determine the truth of a matter, immunity is granted to those involved, to encourage full cooperation. (With an exception retained for particularly gross offenders.) In other circumstances this would be called a "truth and reconciliation commission." South Africa set up one after apartheid fell. The same arrangement is fairly common in America in certain types of investigations. This is not the shocking news its being made out to be.
The purpose of granting immunity from prosecution is ordinarily so that more information can be gained permitting the justice food chain to go higher. However in this case I doubt the same motivation has any bearing. So one might consider another reason why it would be granted...
Has anyone considered that this act is obstruction of justice? Subverting the process before it starts by granting "immunity" and failing to preserve evidence would be, in most other situations, abhorrent and totally illegal.
Whether the Rice division of the maladministration has any authority or not, they are likely immune from any backlash should the "immunity" they granted not stand any testing. Even implying immunity leaves the government with nothing to hold onto should they try to go after the perpetrators of the original crime, let alone the disposal of evidence.
At this point, it would be far more productive to follow the branch on which the poisonous fruit has grown - straight to the root. The potential for obstruction would take "justice" to an entirely unanticipated path. In this, perhaps this mass killing will find at least some justice amidst all the corruption.
This, of course, assuming that the "justice" department has any interest. If not, does this raise the potential (dark as it sounds) that the whole scheme was hatched within the "justice" department itself?
Blackwater will NOT get blanket immunity from prosecution!
If I'm granted immunity, I'll ask to see it in writing signed by a federal judge. A handwritten note on a cocktail napkin signed by Condi isn't going to cut it. Hey, nice try Condi.
bill w @ 29:
Ayuppers...I'm a'feared so....I was thinkin about this earlier...do we get to treat the assholes who voted for BushCo and Pals like the Nazi collaborators were treated at the end of WWII? After the revolution is over, of course...;)
I want to know which "law enforcement officer" said this, by name, and where they got their law degree:
That statement is misleading, and not correct. If the immunity was improperly granted, it is not something the witness can rely on. Also, if the witness -- so granted "immunity" -- lies, that witness can be prosecuted for perjury and contempt. Further, any witness who provides information under immunity, but there are independent lines of evidence developed outside the immunized testimony that convicts the defendant/witness, that initial "immunity grant" is not total: The witness can be subsequently prosecuted. [ More ]
Who is the "senior law enforcement official" and how can they claim they are "familiar" with the investigation? They appear to not comprehend that the grant of immunity can be overcome.
I thought most plea agreements and immunities were subject to a judge's approval.
Contractors in Iraq should operate under the law. But hey if you don't we will give you immunity. What's the freakin point?
Repugs threw a fit about having a hearing before the investigation was finished. Do you think they will be just as outraged about them being given immunity before the investigation was finished? Neither do I.
"Once you give immunity, you can't take it away," said a senior law enforcement official familiar with the investigation. (We know HIM pretty well by now, don't we!)
Well, actually, you CAN take immunity away again, especially if you had no right to give it in the first place. Looks to me like the State Department needs replacing as well, if it can't grasp that simple fact.
And all those extra executive privileges Bush has unilaterally awarded himself can be taken away from him just by one Congressman with a spine standing up and insisting on it.
Doesn't anybody remember the school bully who takes your candy when your are not looking, then when you go up to him with your big brother standing behind you and take it back, he runs away crying?
Back to basics, folks. Or America is doomed.
Blackwater got immunity?
Quick, some cough in Prince's face.
Some ONE
After these guys finish raping the planet, they will all move to Dubai (where Hallebertan is headquartered) and live happily ever-after sipping Pina Colada's with non other than the infamous Osama Bin Laden and friends....
I keep remembering how a few days after 9/11 they (US Government) flew his family members out of Boston Mass, home of the terrorists' flights, on the only planes flying at the time back home or some neutral place... Then we dropped MOAB on Iraq.
We are not AT war with IRAQ..... I'll say it again We are not at war with Iraq.... We are at war IN Iraq.... Sadam has been murdered, ironically for killing Iraqi civilians... What a world!!! Now this administration is telling us we must act like real Americans while they take away all of our civil liberties.... Blackwater CORPORATION (key word CORPORATION) will get away with murder just like the rest of the VENDORS taking advantage of these people, they just don't want to call it MURDER, because it's not Caucasians being murdered. Now everyones excited because the Turks are imposing on the Kurds (and all of the Iraqi oil they are protecting)... Soon the Turks will not be our allies or friends anymore because they are making a coup for the OIL...
I've been thinking about this C&L thread on Immunity for Blackwater, and I noticed something relating to grants of immunity, and whether immunity is the final say. It is not. Other things can happen.
Here's what I noticed: Other nations are willing to do what the US government will not do: enforce the law when Congress refuses to act. For example, despite US government actions to "grant immunity to Blackwater," Iraq's parliament will vote on revoking this immunity. Iraq is willing to go its own way and directly challenge the US government's lawlessness on security personnel. There's nothing saying that this trend could not expand to include foreign powers taking independent action to enforce the laws which Congress will not enforce. Sovereignty means having a government that will enforce the law; not relying on "other nations" to enforce the law.
The Next Step: Foreign Powers Indirectly Enforce FISA Violations
It's been alleged illegally captured information -- in violation of FISA -- was used to "justify" abusing prisoners. Yet immunity for the telecoms has been discussed. This says nothing of how "immunity" for the telecoms relates to telecom liability for prisoner abuse and war crimes.
Sovereignty, Geneva Obligations of Occupying Power
When the Congress refuses to enforce Geneva, FISA, or the rule of law over US persons under US control, other nations can step in and provide the leadership. The US, as an occupying power, has the responsibility to ensure the rule of law prevails; it cannot do, what the Iraqis have learned the hard way the US is doing: Not fully meeting its Geneva obligations by failing to ensure law and order prevails over all personnel under US government control in Iraq.
Conspiracy: Liability For All Criminal Acts
Congress has no power to immunize anyone for war crimes. The scope of the "immunity for FISA violations" fails to address the larger war crimes telecoms have alleged to support.
All parties to a conspiracy are liable for all acts. All unlawful uses of information is forseeably linked with the original unlawful data capture. A warrant would immune people. No warrants were obtained. Telecoms are forseeably liable for the unlawful use of that illegally capture information. The telecom ultimate liability: Illegally captured information used to "support" prisoner abuse was foreseeable, and part of the original conspiracy. They had a duty to withrawal. They refused. They are allegedly complicit with war crimes: The unlawful use of illegally capture information to abuse prisoners of war in violation of Geneva.
Legitimacy and Nuremburg
With enough abuses, the issue of whether Congress will or will not do anything becomes irrelevant: The Congress is no longer relevant. However, other nations may lawfully enforce the laws of war. Even against Members of Congress. If Congress and Members of Congress want to remain legitimate -- showing deference to written law, not lawlessness as has been the habit -- the rule of law must be asserted. Otherwise, an illegitimate government on the verge of "approving" war crimes, becomes the lawful target under Geneva for pre-emptive strikes. Congress has no power to remain blind to Geneva violations. Inaction is not a defense: it is liability for the larger conspiracy. The Neremburg Trials reminded the world: Silent assent is not a defense. Members of Congress have a duty. they are not meeting their legal obligations. The question is whether Congress wants to remain relevant.
Congressional Obligations
Congress needs to step up to the plate. When it refuses, other nations are capable of filling the power vacuum. The results may be adverse to member of Congress legal interests. Members of Congress, who refuses to enforce Geneva -- and block prosecution of telecoms for their alleged "permission" to use information to abuse prisoners -- could be prosecuted for war crimes.
Outlook
Congress may vote to do nothing about FISA violations. But this does not mean the legal requirements -- and attached legal obligations with the 4th Amendment warrant requirement -- will go unenforced. Indirectly, other powers can confront the other end of the issue: How the illegally captured information was subsequently used to abuse prisoners of war in violation of Geneva.
Congress fails to see the larger picture. Other nations are capable of filling in the Congressional gaps. Where Congress ignores the 4th Amendment, other nations can rely on the Geneva conventions to check Congressional malfeasance. Where Congress refuses to assert its oath to defend the US Constitution, other powers through the Geneva Conventions, have been delegated power to impose discipline on Congress.
The voters have been ignored. The US Congress will not enforce the 2006 voter mandate. Foreign powers have a vote that Congress needs to pay attention to. If Congress ignores foreign powers, Congress may get a rude wakeup call.
wow ........ just wow
Who cares about immunity; just print the names, addresses, phone numbers, and e-mails of all Blackwater employees and management. They will beg for the protection of jail.
Now you know why several hung swinging from a bridge minus their heads. The Iraqis should take matters into their own hands. Nothing will come from Bushco especially Sleazy Lice.
Carol @ 11:
How the fuck could Bremer have made laws up in his own little head and handed them down? On WHAT AUTHORITY was that done? I would challenge the legitimacy of it all the way. And somebody low-jack Erik Prince real quick before he tries to leave the country.
rasta @ 4:
I thought it was the role of the Justice Department to grant immunity. What's Condi got to do with it? But then again, this administration has completely blurred the lines between departments and agencies.
It takes a "torture, death and deficit Republican" to create their own laws.
I'm shocked I tell ya', SHOCKED!
The Bush/Cheney regime: Defending us from truth, justice, healthy kids, and the American way!
Does this surprise anyone? Have you seen the PBS documentary "Cheney's War" These guys are worthy opponents. They are slick and have a desire to rule the world. We are going to have to step it up a bit if we plan on catching them in the act so to say. Figure it out.
Wake up.. http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/10/15/tivo-alert-pbss-frontline-chene... connect the dots. It's not that hard intellectually, but emotionally its going to take a little courage..
“Once you give immunity, you can’t take it away,” said a senior law enforcement official familiar with the investigation."
Which is not true.
The State Dept. cannot give what it does not have the power to give.
Btw, State did not even check with Justice.
What State has done is complicated the prosecutions, but a profer of immunity is not available for warcrimes under US law, and certainly not under international law.
You are quite wrong on several assumptions:
"A. Congress may vote to do nothing about FISA violations;"
The Congress does not prosecute crimes. FISA violations are crimes. The Judicial branch, and the DoJ, prosecute crimes.
"but other nations can lawfully act to impose consequences for the illegal use of that information, especially when that illegal use involves Geneva violations and prisoner abuse;"
That has nothing to do with spying.
"B. Just as Congress revokes FISA,"
Congress has not revoked FISA. We are working to update the law, removing loopholes.
"so too can other nations revoke their agreement to remain silent about how illegally captured information was used to abuse prisoners;"
What agreement?
"C. Congress may “approve” immunity for FISA violations"
'Congress' is not agreed on that. The House has refused any profer of immunity. The Senate -- and a few powerful members at that -- are the ones who are suggesting it.
"but this does not mean that foreign powers cannot prosecute the telecoms from using illegally captured information to abuse their nationals."
'Illegally' captured information is otherwise known as spying. Foreign powers have no power over US spying other than to complain at the UN, to the US counsel. In Europe, their own laws won't allow them to bar such telecoms from doing business, but would require an EU ruling and even then the NATO treaty would trump.
(counsel, in the final paragraph, should be consulate, "or to the US Consulate)
slippytoad @ 75 "Cusack: So let's talk about Paul Bremer, who single-handedly imposed many of the laws that are still on the books in Iraq, including the one giving Blackwater and other private contractors immunity from prosecution -- in effect putting them above the law."
Bremer's Order #17 gave immunity UNDER IRAQI LAW to the private men in arms.
NO immunity under US or international law CAN be given.
Bremer is one of the top Kissinger operatives. These "CPA Orders" were used to further the project of dismantling Iraq into three territories so the airbases can stay, by fomenting civil war. They are in themselves war crimes.
Here, feast your eyes on the CPA's work:
http://www.cpa-iraq.org/regulations/
From Order 17:
"1) Unless provided otherwise herein, the MNF, the CPA, Foreign Liaison Missions, their Personnel, property, funds and assets, and all International Consultants shall be immune from Iraqi legal process."
(MNF is Multi-National Force, CPA's lie about the US/British effort. Not just private men in arms, but regular military as well were immunized from Iraqi law).
and what's to stop the iraqi govt from declaring immunity to any group to open fire
on our US troops. why does this administration operate in another universe?
bush/cheney/rice are sending the United States straight to hell.
Actually, DOS did not grant immunity in the sense that the contractors cannot be proscuted. They apparently relied on the Garrity Rule -- derived from a Supreme Court case, Garrity v. New Jersey, 385 U.S. 493 (1967). In this case, it was held that law officers cannot be compelled to make incriminating statements under the threat of losing their jobs. DOS generalized this concept from cops to contractors.
Basically, any statements they may have made in the course of the DOS "investigation" into the shooting incident cannot be used against them in a subsequent criminal prosecution. It does however not mean they cannot be prosecuted. Problem is, any subsequent prosecution would have to show that any evidence gathered was gathered independently of the incriminating statements. Tough to prove.
There is more detail over at TPM Muckraker at: http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004589.php
Drshatterhand @ 1:
What an astute point. The state department can grant asylum but it has no power to promise or enforce promises of immunity from persecution.
That said, it doesn't mean shit. These guys didn't break any laws. Yep, that's right. They already had immunity under Iraqi law (wonder who wrote that into their constitution ). And there are no US laws that were broken. Oops. I guess chimpy, darth and the dark prince win again.
You know, it's almost like they planned for just such an incident.
Wait, comming to a city near you (actually your city ) very soon, you too can be shot by armed Blackwater thugs. That's right, they have plans to be patrolling cities in the US. So much for posse comitatus. Now chimpy, darth and the dark prince can invade your state with a private militia and there's nothing your governor will be able to do about it.
Sleep tight.
Every American company has immunity in Iraq, it is something we made them write into their constitution. Blackwater is just the tip of the iceberg. We have destroyed that nation to the point where they cannot do anything to improve themselves.
Paul in LA @ 81:
Comment: Irrelevant. Othernations, if they want, can use "illegal use of illegally-telecom-captured infromation for prisoner abuse" as a basis to retaliate or take legal action under Geneva.
The point is that a decision of Congerss to grant immunity -- if that occurs -- is not the end of it. FISA violations by telecoms, if they are linked with ;prisoner abuse/war crimes, means other nations can enforce laws of war against telecoms, as done after Nazi Germany at Nuremburg.
I am so tired of this shit it hurts. Will someone please ask these people who we elected to office to think on their own, to find out witch government official signed the contracts with black water and exactly how the hell the contract is worded.
Some ass hole that was appointed by this administration signed the contract, giving these criminals authority to do all the shit they are doing and it should be available for congress to review exactly what was agreed to and who the hell in the government approved it.
If they connect the dame dots, it will lead them right to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, where the buck stops.
Blackwater should be shutdown. It's unreal that these sobs are allowed to even put any of their people on U.S soil.
fuck their little game, it ain't gonna work
The person(s) who gave Blackwater murderers immunity must then be held accountable for that massacre.
For that matter the use of these thugs is but another charge to be added to the war crimes tribunals charges against Bush, Cheney, Blair, Rice, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Powell, Perle.....
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