On Tuesday's "Washington Journal" a caller from Florida asks former Reagan Justice Dept. official and current torture-apologist David Rivkin to volunteer to be water boarded so he can decide whether or not it should considered torture.
Download | play 
Download | play (h/t Heather)
Let's hear what a different former Reagan Justice Dept. official has to say.
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I like the crack about his glasses. The caller is a smart dude.
Water-boarding is too good for him. He should be forced to watch tapes of David Rivkin spewing nonsense on teevee.
Rivkin did everything but respond in German.
HA-HA! pwned!
Disgusting.
Oh, a cop has to stay in prison to see if prison is torture and therefore illegal?
This is great Republican logic!
I don't know anything about Rivkin, but quite frankly the caller came off badly IMHO. Rivkin remained calm and sidestepped the issue. The caller would have had more impact, I think, if he's kept his cool and they replied to the non-answer.
Rivkin himself said "it's about drawing a line". The caller could have simply said that the line should be "no torture". Personal attacks and cheap shots, particularly at the beginning of a statement just make it easy for people to dismiss whatever point you are trying to make. In debating, the side that keeps their cool usually wins.
what a ridiculous comparison asking if police should go to jail to see what its like to send criminals there. if assholes could talk------oooops---i guess they can.
EVERYONE who thinks waterboarding is not torture should sign up. I mean it is not that bad right? WTF?
THANK YOU.....been waiting for someone to do that......now we need an open call for wingnuts who will volunteer to be waterboarded. Regarding this idiot's police analogy, sometimes police are tasered as part of their training so that they know what it feels like.....that's a closer analogy (a tactic as opposed to a punishment) than the one he presented.
V V
If you think that the draft-evading excuses put forth by the right-wingers to get out of the Vietnam draft were creative - just wait for the ones to get out of a 'demonstrative' water-boarding session hit!!
Draw the line somewhere? How about drawing the line at treatment for which we prosecuted the Japanese as war criminals? Waterboarding is torture. Pure and simple.
Another blithering, lying asshole. Meaningless rhetoric. Bullshit.
right, he should put his money (and a water-soaked cloth) where his mouth is...
This schmuck should be waterboarded for his shirt, tie and glasses on principle alone.
Then threaten his mother.
sir: respectfully, just answer the question. not with i'm not part of the govt so i don't have access to that kind of experience or not with another question, do police have to be incarcerated so they will know what it's like, incidentally, don't police in their training have to be tazored so they will know what that exp is like. Sir, with all due respect, you are full of it. either go through it and tell us then or shut up.
Interesting that this miserable coward says that cops and prosecuters don't go to prison to see what it's like. A more apt comparison would be that cops DO have to be tazed before being certified to use a tazer, and they DO have to be sprayed with pepper spray before being certified to use pepper spray.
Vitam Vas @ 11:
The Yellow Elephant effort hasn't really persuaded any to sign up for Vietnam - er, I mean, Iraq. We can't really expect to shame these people into logical consistency; they fell no shame.
These spineless Republican daisy chain, tail to nose, lock step suck ups make me sick. I am mortified that the represent America to the world at large. No wonder everybody hates us.
Likewise, health care staff are strapped in wheelchairs for extended periods of time to give them a little reality empathy training.
But, even if he submitted to waterboarding, and particularly if he was goaded into it, this bootlicker would stick to the party line. He would have to be open minded enough to willingly do it, otherwise it is bravado and demogoguery.
If he was that uncomfortable answering a question on C-Span, I'm guessing he'd find waterboarding more than a little "unpleasant."
his police analogy isn't valid... cops aren't saying jail is no big deal... while consternatives are saying waterboarding is no big deal... not torture... just "a little water splashed on your face," right?
What a slime ball !!
Cowabunga DUUUUDDE!!!
And here in Texas we know our cow bungs
Just not Biblically.
By the way, the Moyers clip is freaking brilliant. That is exactly why we need impeachment. Because this is a Democracy, not a dictatorship, and we must reapply the precedent that no one is above the law. Could you just imagine the over-reach of a Rudy Dalton McRomney administration? What about a Hillary Hussein Edwards administration? Neither makes me very comfortable without habeas corpus and FISA.
Old Billy @ 19:
I didn't know there was actually a Site Called Yellow Elephant, pretty cool, thanks for the info.
Just one more chickenhawk. I love the analogies they pull out of their asses. Why can't they just face answering a question straight on? Pigs...little pigs, but still pigs.
Did he say 'ellen town'? Someone enlighten me.
Also what is with the crazy hand gestures when talks about 'consinging' policement to prison?
They just keep coming... like shit rolling down a hill. Could anyone be any stupider than this asshat?! Didn't think so... lots just as stupid though.
mitch @ 9:
I would like to add that everyone who thinks the Iraq war is legal should sign up.
I mean he is right out of central casting as a mob attorney.
Guy looks like Mr. Mackie from South Park.
right on! @ 29:
What's even more scary is that the people (the American Voters) are just as appalling.
The voters re-elected Bush and by extension, his policies just 3 years ago.
To me, it's even odds that the public will, still being played for fear and terror,
elect Mitt Romney or Rudy Giuliani president.
The Public is pretty damned stupid these days.
What country is this? Or are we even a country any more?
"Where do you draw the line? You have to draw it somewhere".
Is this prick serious?! You draw the line AGAINST SUBJECTING PEOPLE TO TORTURE!
The caller should've given Rivkin a choice. Either try water boarding or admit it is torture. For me that's the line.
Spanish Inquisition claimed it didn't torture because no blood was spilt. If you're going to be a SOB and do this at least be an honest SOB and admit it is torture.
And as for not having the opportunity like Liven. I'm certain one could find volunteers locally willing to apply the lesson.
Here is another stinking CON who does not understand how to make a reasonable analogy.
Water board this dumb Reslug bastard and why not pull out his nails too for his total entertainment.
I see my link to his email address was removed.
The link provided by C&L has his email address and his phone number.
Perhaps you should remove that link?
- Bob Cesca
It's about time don't ya think?
45 minutes ago
WASHINGTON - President Bush suffered the first veto override of his seven-year-old presidency Thursday as the Senate enacted a $23 billion water resources bill despite his protest that it was filled with unnecessary projects.
I was surprised the caller was from Panama City, FL -- capital of the Redneck Riviera.
The 'line' was drawn many, many years ago when ALL civilized societies agreed that waterboarding IS indeed torture!! What a pimp this clown is!
Terrible @ 43:
Opps!! I didn't mean to put down pimps like that!
it's telling that he compared being asked to experience waterboarding to a cop or prosecutor being asked to experience prison. prison is a punishment, not an interview technique. so is waterboarding. these punks just want to feel like someone's being scared and hurt, because they're so scared themselves.
L.A. Confidential @ 41:
Yeah, EVERYTHING is too expensive for Busholini -- except, that is, his war on terruh!
Poor guy, he is not in a position where he has the option to be waterboarded to see if it is torture. Can't anyone do anything to make it available to him? And announce it for all to know, love to see his reaction then!
THIS FREAK'S PARENTS SHOULD BE WATERBOARDED FOR NOT HAVING AN ABORTION!
Too bad for him, going to prison, after being tried and convicted, is a lot different that being waterboarded so that someone can figure out (rightly or wrongly) whether you've done anything wrong in the first place.
Dr. Acula @ 46:
One of the principal reasons why they love a "War" is that so much can be hidden under "National Security"-defense appropriations, the way the money is spent, the way it's accounted for. That can all remain secret.
Whaaaa? Has a oolice officer ever said not spending time in jail wasn't punishment? So why would a police officer need to spend time in jail to prove something is what he believes it to be? This doughy, pudgy, pasty white, cowardly, conservative is spinning and dodging like they all do. You don't believe waterboarding is torture? Subject yourself to it. Period.
EJG @ 47:
I sent him a link to the Kaj Larsen video so that he can arrange for his own waterboarding.
I also asked him to post the video of his experience to YouTube.
Albatross @ 32:
M'kay. Baahahahahaah!
Wow, what a convincing argument this thug has. I see now why the Democrats cave all the time on these issues.
A better excuse would have been the Rush Limbaugh excuse for avoiding Vietnam. I can't be waterboarded because I have a boil on my ass.
Even our own military believes water boarding is torture, which is exactly why they put special operation soldiers through it in various training scenarios, so that they know what to expect if captured as it is a very popular, and effective, technique used by the enemy. If the military and/or CIA is going to continue to use this method they might as well speak to no comment when approached about it and get on with it. I'm tired of this debate. It won't matter if we enforce its illegality. It will still go on, no matter how wrong it is.
However, it would make a good television show if we could just round up all those apologists and waterboard the heck out of them. The last one to crack wins a million.
Ah, but many police ARE REQUIRED to undergo being pepper sprayed in the face, AND being tazered. Notice that he was careful to pick prison, which police are usually not required to experience. Nice parsing.
I agree with Rivkin on one point... you have to draw the line somewhere. And where do you draw that line? By calling a cigar a cigar and admitting that water-boarding is goddamn torture any way you put it. It simulates DROWNING. Not all torture is phyiscal. The worst kind can be psychological. Like Keith said the other night, if people 500 friggin years ago defined this as torture, why can't this corrupt administration? Maybe I just answered my own question.
Ha, ha! Panama City represent. We're not all morons.
Vitam Vas @ 10:
Very true
"Cops to prison"? Prison is where convicts go. Criminal suspects go to court.
Besides, David Rivkin and all the other mouth breathing chicken hawks can't hold their breath for very long. Beak breathers.
I'd be satisfied to see that little weasel subjected to stress positions, extremely loud music, and freezing temperatures (simultaneously, of course). Those are things this joke of an administration has said flat-out AREN'T torture.
He's be crying for his mama in two minutes.
In other news congress shows who's The Decider http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071108/ap_on_go_co/congress_veto
Seems Dems and sensible Republicans, it wasn't that hard do was it? My respect for congress just went up a notch.
Forget water, pissboard him.
i thought he was going to crap his pants
Bush Co probably likes waterboarding and methods that leave victims alive and unmarked. A victim with no visible damage may lack credibility when telling tales of torture.
So Bush like
Weaseldog @ 6:
HAHA i know right? Wtf kinda of wack-ass analogy is that?
L.A. Confidential @ 41:
Story Here
L.A. Confidential @ 66:
the shrub also liked branding pledges with hot hangers in college. torture has been a staple in his life habits. the suffering of others brings the shrub glee.
BaScOmBe @ 68:
The only project Bush Co and Cabal considers necessary is putting money in their own pockets. And I'm not talking trivial cigarette change sums like millions.
I think they should ask Mukasey to undergo the proceedure and then decide if he thinks it's torture or not.*
Arroyo @ 33:
Just remember that over 60 MILLION people voted AGAINST Bush in '04; that's the highest number of votes ever cast against a sitting President in U.S. History.
So we're not all lost. And Bush's base is down to below Nixon levels. So things are getting better...(I hope)..
Reps Conyers, Ellison and Waters Discuss Impeachment
Impeach for Peace discusses impeachment with Reps Keith Ellison, John Conyers, and Maxine WatersOn Tuesday, October 23rd, Impeach for Peace was granted a meeting with Representative John Conyers in Washington DC to discuss H. Res 333 and the status of impeachment. The meeting took place in the Judiciary Offices of the Rayburn building and was attended by Rep. John Conyers, an aide to Rep. Conyers and myself. There was no scheduled endtime for the meeting and ultimately the meeting lasted nearly 45 minutes. During this time many different aspects of the impeachment process were discussed. Representative Conyers was very generous with his time and made it very clear that he considers it very important for him to continue these conversations about impeachment. Unlike during his visit to Minneapolis, Rep. Conyers did not mention the matter of “time” as one of the factors against bringing forward H. Res 333. His most prominent rationale for not bringing forward the resolution was that he felt there wouldn’t be support for the measure and subsequently that it wouldn’t go anywhere. He spoke about all of the freshman Congresspeople who were elected in Red States and how they were unlikely to come out in favor of impeachment.
1. Let him try it.
2. When he raises his hand to stop it - keep going for five more hours
3. Then ask him if he thinks it's torture.
Where do you draw the line?!? It's easy! Torture is NOT based on a pain threshold.
If you are using physical force to coerce someone to give information, THAT IS TORTURE!
Andrew C @ 58:
Here's another caller from the same show -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGZYyEp9ZIs. Rivkin's complains that those most against water-boarding want to stop all forms of coercion in interrogation.
That's his li[n]e. If water-boarding isn't allowed then we'd have to treat prisoners in Gitmo better than people arrested or in the service.
the cons think people that aren't white are subhuman so it's okay to violate their human rights
"No access"??!! What a shitbag. Then to compare it to prison? Class A shitbag. C'mon David, I bet you could find a way to give it a try...
L.A. Confidential @ 70:
so far, it's seven pentagon budgets (4.2 Trillion) ;TaxCuts for the wealthy (6 x 110Billion = 660 Billion); supplemental war bills (400Billion) + miscellaneous no-bid contracts and hidden appropriations(est. +100Billion)
Rough total = $6Trillion or $6,000,000,000,000
All those estimates are conservative!
Own'd!!!!
My solution is very simple:
Anyone who says that water-boarding is NOT torture and helps us catch the bad guys submit to my simple challenge:
Tell them the following BEFORE they are subjected to water-boarding
"You will confess to being a terrorist. You will confess to actively plotting to overthrow the government of the USA. You will renounce your faith"
If you do not confess to those things you will prove BEYOND ANY DOUBT to all of "THE CRAZY LEFTY LIBERAL" crowd that this procedure is not torture.
Weaseldog @ 6:
I know quite a few (but not enough) police academies taser you as part of the training, so that you know what it feels like.
Let me do it! Becuase to give you a real taste of it I won't stop when you plead for mercy. It won't stop until I say so, and that could be a real long time. While I'm at it , I'll make sure he confesses to all kinds of things. It won't stop until he confesses to buggering monkey boy.
Keep on dancin' jackass!
Well, I agree with one thing the rightwinger says about that we live in dangerous times, the time period where the constitution is disregarded for our rights.
Our govt was safest when we had a very open transparent govt where we knew every dollar was spent and therefore kept CIA out of other country starting secret wars. This backward approach to secret torture prison and wiretapping has made us unsafe. Let the enemy know what we know and have an open govt, a govt where we are not a threat.
No Mr. Rivkin, being sent to bed without supper is unpleasant - waterboarding is torture and, if Cheney or Dubya authorized it, they should go to prison. I know, it's an unpleasant place that sent chills up your spine, but that's tough. Whoever ordered or authorized waterboarding is a criminal, no better, no worse than the al Qaeda leadership.
God Almighty, where do these assholes come from?
Blue Buddha @ 82:
Yes. This is true. But David didn't argue this did he?
yellow dog @ 86:
Texas?
David Rivkin is an asshole. he says he does not have access to experience waterboarding, bullshit. he has the same access the last justice dept official had, he is just a chickshit bastard and is afraid.
they were going to give ann coulter the delightful experience of waterboarding, but they could not find a rag big enough to stuff in her mouth and then they could not figure which end to stuff it on her.
You draw the line on the side that isn't torture. That was easy. I didn't even have to think about it; it just spilled forth.
88 liberalNmoderation Says: yellow dog @ 86:
No Mr. Rivkin, being sent to bed without supper is unpleasant - waterboarding is torture and, if Cheney or Dubya authorized it, they should go to prison. I know, it’s an unpleasant place that sent chills up your spine, but that’s tough. Whoever ordered or authorized waterboarding is a criminal, no better, no worse than the al Qaeda leadership.
God Almighty, where do these assholes come from?
Texas?
I know in the Oak Lawn area of Dallas there's a lot of leather boys into serious S&M.
Vitam Vas @ 10:
volunteering won't solve the issue. the deal with waterboarding is to make the victim think he/she will actually drown. it may give one an idea but knowing that you won't actually drown leads some to think that it is not torture. believe when it was used in a hostile situtation it's amazing to watch....really awful.
It's not just the waterboarding, bad as that is. It's the whole "extraordinary rendition". The hoods, the shackles, the psycological terror, the strange music, the darkness, the unknown, and then they drag you off to be waterboarded (and/or gawd knows what else), and you have no idea when, why, or for how long. or when they'll do it again, or maybe if they'll actually kill you next time.
Try to imagine the WHOLE experience they put these people through!!!!
91 ysbaddaden Says:
I know in the Oak Lawn area of Dallas there’s a lot of leather boys into serious S&M.
That has nothing to do with this. S&M is consensual, not terror. One of my acquaintances made good money vacationing as a dominatrix in a sex dungeon is Spain. Not only gays do it. AND, it's not "extraordinary rendition."
Sooooooooo.......Is this country going forward or backward?
"Nobody jokes about it", he says.
I guess it's ok, then.
#93: Exactly. Some Fox News clown did volunteer to undergo waterboarding a while back, and came away with the conclusion that, while intensely unpleasant (and therefore effective), it was not torture. Of course it was all done under very controlled circumstances by "friendlies" who had no intention of pushing the demonstration too far or, God forbid, actually causing permanent damage. Being abused by mutual consent removes one of the key components of real torture, which is terror.
Anyone who can't simple see that waterboarding is wrong on every level, should be ignored.Assholes like this creep [who looks like a "Dateline" predator]who you can clearly see is fake tough should never be allowed to represent our country.
What's shameful is that this country is having a debate on whether or not waterboarding constitutes torture.
[deleted - do not advocate violence here] Then tell the little twit that you aren't really sure where the line is because that's for the cowardly neocons and Hannity, O'Reilly,and Limbaugh to debate. But, then let him know that you'll keep trying to figure out where the line is because you aren't sure what torture is because it's really an intellectual exercise that is simply a matter of degree
There's a another real bad reality show that could come of this. Let's recruit Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, Hannity, Billo , that fatass Limbaugh, Coulter and Malkin, and let's see wich one of these macho chickenhawks will last longer while being waterboarded by Oliver North...
"100 Dick (no, not that one)": No, you don't need to even go that far. Just water board him until he 'confesses' it's over the line. If it's not torture, he'll have no problem with it. If he tries to weasel out of it by saying he just made that comment so it would stop, then they have to admit it doesn't produce any useful intelligence, because it just did. Also, the fact he was willing to say anything to make it stop means it's torture.
Simple.
God, just listen to this weasely little Republican wank-bag. "Do police see what it's like being in prison"? When in doubt, employ a non sequitur. All this umming and ahhing. These fuckers know damn well it's torture.
"because it just did" = "because it just didn't". Damn this "trying to do three things at once" malarkey...
whatta douche.
The very fact that a country in the XXI century has to debate whether torture is torture or not is very telling on how low, us as a society have failed.
When you become what you are fighting in order to win, you lose. Period....
The main difference between terrorist and us was that we were a civilized country, with laws.
If we have to kidnap, torture and/or kill people in plain violation of our own rule of law... we a re no better than those jackasses in the caves.
The fact that this prototypical fact smug pussy, who talks tough but would fold kicker than a deck rice paper cards if he was to experience an iota of unpleasantness, has to use red herring arguments to defend the indefensible: that torture is OK if performed by us is disgusting. I guess these are those compassionate conservative chaps we heard so much about.
The reason why US troops get waterboarded during SERE school is because the instructors want them to know what it is like to be tortured. Jebus, are you reich-wingers really they obtuse?
lol. Oops. Correction: "....reich-wingers really *that* obtuse?"
:-D
Not enough coffee today.
Today's Douche Bag of Liberty Medal winner.
Congratulations, Mr Rivkin.
Folks, all of us will eventually pay for these atrocities committed in our name.
Can you say coward?
FUCK! We're AMERICANS. We do not mistreat prisoners EVER. It's unconstitutional. It's wrong. I can't bear this SHIT!
The Sea Hawk @ 56:
Now that the term "waterboarding" is as common as "tea" or "coffee", and we've all learned how to do it, via the internet and TV, I'm waiting for the "breaking news" some disgruntled high school kid has been doing it to classmates. Or they find the first civilian torture chamber. It is America, after all.
"I don't have access to it like he did"?
Is he sticking to that one cuz I'm pretty sure we can work him in between "boardings" at Gitmo sometime.
Whatya bet?
You can be sure that he conducted an exhaustive search for a chance to try waterboarding but, dammit, couldn't get anyone to help. Really though, he was willing to try.
Torture Pimp!
Rivkin says, " I don't know anybody who takes water boarding lightly. Or thinks it's a joke." Actually, didn't VP Cheney make a public comment about a little dunk in the water as a good interrogation tool?
The whole point with water boarding is that it's never done just ONE time; it's done MANY times. THAT'S what makes it torture.
Ever hear of so called Chinese water torture? Hey, that's just a little drip ... and another little drip ... and another ...
Albatross @ 32:
Ummkay.
Astro @ 97:
<blockquote>#93: Exactly. Some Fox News clown did volunteer to undergo waterboarding a while back, and came away with the conclusion that, while intensely unpleasant (and therefore effective), it was not torture. Of course it was all done under very controlled circumstances by "friendlies" who had no intention of pushing the demonstration too far or, God forbid, actually causing permanent damage. Being abused by mutual consent removes one of the key components of real torture, which is terror.
Thanks for chiming in. Every time I see this debated on TV, they frame it as an isolated frat-boy prank. It IS NOT. There are "dungeons" and torture camps. You live it day and night, never knowing what's next. These cream puffs on TV infuriate me. (And I am, technically, a "cream puff" ;) , but with 1,000X more spine.)
Waterboarding by itself is torture. But it's part of a continuum of torture that detainees in inhumane imprisonment scenarios must endure: they are isolated, alienated, at the mercy of people who hate them.
So for Mr. R to get the full experience, he would have to experience it at the hands of, say, jihadists. Even to volunteer for the "tremendously unpleasant" experience would not be enough.
John McCain is an asshole on almost any other topic, but on this one, where he has real experience, he is right on. The Rivkins and JulieAnnies of the world are simply not real Americans; there is no other way to put it. Americans don't torture. That's why we tend to win hearts and minds. Or used to, before Lord Cheney and his daemon chimp George.
The caller's point is that this right wing shill should volunteer SINCE THE SHILL IS SAYING THAT IT IS NOT TORTURE.
And the right wing buffoon knows that.
Pathetic, really.
Where you draw the line is the same place chicken hawks always draw the line.
'As long as it doesn't happen to me'.
Torture, fighting the war, paying for the war....
If they would put the Ollie North waterboarding show on pay TV, we could pay off the national debt. Normally, a pay TV is around $50 -- I'd pay
$500 to see all the Repub thugs waterboarded. Bet Bush would cry first.
"When you become what you are fighting in order to win, you lose. Period…."
Good point, but I don't hear about US soldiers being tortured, except maybe by stays at Walter Reed.
We didn't do this in response to torture but supposedly as a response to terrorism. Unfortunately that explanation is kind of nonsensical when you realize that we have employed these methods against people that we then routinely let go since they were mistakenly apprehended in the first place.
The point of this torture is not good intelligence. If it were then maybe the goon squad that calls itself our executive branch might have detained and tortured the bin Laden family instead of giving them special privileges to fly around the country during a no-fly period and then flying them out of the country as soon as the ban was lifted.
How does it help the US to torture people in Abu Ghraib who had nothing whatever to do with 9/11? Or even attacks on the occupation forces?
This torture is a message to us.
[refers to deleted portion of post] Then tell the little twit that you aren't really sure where the line is because that's for the cowardly neocons and Hannity, O'Reilly,and Limbaugh to debate. But, then let him know that you'll keep trying to figure out where the line is because you aren't sure what torture is because it's really an intellectual exercise that is simply a matter of degree
In this example, the line is just after you crush his testicles with the ball peen hammer. OK, who's next? Limbaugh or Hannity. This will educate them.
Johnny2Bad @ 113:
You would do that, Johnny? You'd condone it for someone you disagree with, but not for a capured terrorist for whom you believed that it was the only way getting the information to of prevent an imminent mass casualty attack?
Rivkin: wimp
Dennis @ 125:
Dennis, we'd do it because "they" say it's not torture. And, worthless torture too because the captured terrorist would undoubtedly trade falsehoods for time so as to accomplish his mission of a mass casualty attack. A string of little white lies until the bomb goes off.
Edwin @ 112:
You mean "civilian discomfort chamber". Remember, don't mention the 'T' word.
dennis @ 125: ...You would do that, Johnny? You’d condone it for someone you disagree with, but not for a capured terrorist for whom you believed that it was the only way getting the information to of prevent an imminent mass casualty attack?
Rufus @ 127: Dennis, we’d do it because “they” say it’s not torture. And, worthless torture too because the captured terrorist would undoubtedly trade falsehoods for time so as to accomplish his mission of a mass casualty attack. A string of little white lies until the bomb goes off.
Both of these gave me a shiver. dennis, are you really saying you'd condone torturing a captured terrorist as the only way to extract information out of him? And rufus, you'd do it to another human being to prove a point?
Torture is wrong. Period. It doesn't matter who you do it to, or for what reason. It's Just. Plain. Wrong.
Nonny, you're right I feel ashamed. But, please, couldn't I torture Rivkin just a little? Can Rivkin feel pain? Maybe it's time to find out.
Torture doesn't just break the victim. Or even the torturer. It breaks entire countries.
Court Jester @ 7:
Attention, concern troll coming through!
If you know what someone fears you can break them immediately. Rivkin doesn't think waterboarding is anything serious, but wonder how he would feel about the head cage with a hungry rat? Hey, it worked in "1984," and all they had to do was show the suspect the cage w/hungry rat.
So, here we are in 2007 discussing torture techniques -- who would have thought one president could screw up our country so much in just seven years.
Disgusting - and each time Bush tortures he tortures in our name.
All hail our beloved LEADER.
wow. That guy seems scared. BOOOO!
I think the boogieman is coming to get you Rivkin, better start waterboarding everyone we can. After all, if it's not torture, we should have cops using it here to get confessions.
WTF.
Nonny, I know torture is wrong. I also know this is a delicate subject. If it was cut and dry it would've been put to rest a long time ago, but it hasn't been. This caller being rude to Rivkin and challenging him to experience waterboarding before he opens his mouth any more doesn't add to the debate. You're the best debater that's ever posted here; I'm sure you know that. It's the tired notion that liberals believe so strongly they are in the right morally and if you don't agree with them then you're a bad person. So much so in fact, as in the case of many who have posted on this thread, that they'd set aside their revulsion of torture if were to be used on a certain 'arrogant right-wing Republican'. It's what kills the liberal argument too many times; but liberals will keep doing it till the cows come home.
Bill Clinton believes in it in extreme cases, so does John McCain. So does every liberal or Democrat I know that I've ever spoken to on the subject (away from here.)
Here are two recent articles on the subject that I've found pertinent. One from Alan Dershowitz, no reichwinger, who feels the issue could be the death-knell for the Democrat party next year.
Democrats and Waterboarding
The Democratic Party will lose the presidential race if it defines itself as soft on terror.
Waterboarding and Hiroshima
Did the Allies in World War II "lower themselves to the level of their enemies"?
its not torture, its "tremendously unpleasant"
was this asshole really compairing a prison sentence handed down by a judge in a court of law - to being tortured in a black site prison?
Wow, just when you think you've seen the crest of how fucked up Republicans are they raise the bar on us!
Jeff @ 136:
No shit!!! talk about splitting hairs
Dennis @ 135:
Wow more right wing nonsense, you really believe that anyone's suggestion on this site (or any liberal blog) that people who say waterboarding isn't torture should try it once and come back with an edjucated answer is saying we should torture the other party in the name of torture? I'm sorry but it's the Republicans who want to 'double Gitmo' who want to keep black site prisons running in our names. it's people like you who blindly support the worst of America instead of wanting this country to be the best it can be you are happy with turning a blind eye to what the Republican party does...just so long as they don't get a BJ in office that is! or maybe that wouldn't matter to you either...as long as it's a republican!
Weaseldog @ 6:
the real reason thats a ridiculous notion is because cops ALREADY do something like that...
part of their basic training to get hit with a taser and pepper spray...ill guarantee you, those cops have that in mind when they decide whether or not to spray YOU with it....
What a slime ball. Easy to shoot your mouth off when you can be sure that your ass will never be at risk. Easy to back up ignorant positions with empty rationalizations when you know you'll never be put to the test or be made to suffer any consequences.
Dahgrostab'ph-r-i @ 139:
Wow more right wing nonsense, you really believe that anyone's suggestion on this site (or any liberal blog) that people who say waterboarding isn't torture should try it once and come back with an edjucated answer is saying we should torture the other party in the name of torture?
No, Dahgro, I didn't say that at all. I will say that more than a few people posting on this thread were wishing to see Rivkin tortured. Their hatred for him is more apparent than than any hatred they'd have for a captured terrorist who was withholding information about a planned attack on our citizens.
When I read those two articles I posted, I have to say they make a whole lot more sense to me than any post I've read here on the subject. Yours included, sorry.
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it’s people like you who blindly support the worst of America instead of wanting this country to be the best it can be you are happy with turning a blind eye to what the Republican party does…just so long as they don’t get a BJ in office that is! or maybe that wouldn’t matter to you either…as long as it’s a republican!
Bill Clinton condones it in extreme cases. Does he blindly support the worst of America? Does he turn a blind eye. (I know the answer to that question but I'd like to hear your thoughts).
I don't care that the guy got a blowjob in office; God bless him. I don't care if he's getting one right now from anyone other than Hillary. Blowjobs don't bother me- molesting, forcing himself on another woman and exposing himself do. And it bothers me that his wife colluded with him to cover up his predatory perversions and attacked the women harmed by him.
Ha..ha.. Another no-good gutless right-wing pig whoring for the Bush Crime Gang with his foot in his fat mouth.
I say somebody should treat him to a little demonstration whether he likes it or not.
And it figures that Brian Lamb and the other clowns at CSPAN would provide a platform for this greasy little freak to spew his lies and BS.
CSPAN is nothing but an echo chamber for Neo-Con Zio-fascists in sheep's clothing to spread their disease under the cover of a "news" commentary.
Everyday they host, yet, another GOP liar and bullshit artist to spread electromagnetic pollution over the air under the guise of being a current events program.
It's a sham and has been for years.
He's a Repug. He would never put his self in harms way.
Another right wing PU$$Y
I agree that C-Span seems to have way more Right wingers on then left winger. Wonder why that is?
Dennis @ 135 said: ...liberals believe so strongly they are in the right morally and if you don’t agree with them then you’re a bad person.
This is the crux of the matter for a lot of "conservatives", and it's undeniable. I'm a liberal, and I can hear other liberals hatin' on the conservatives as obnoxiously as, say, Ann Coulter, but they can't see it because they're so caught up in their senses of moral superiority they just don't fathom how much worse they are making everything. I've asked every jobless or wage slave Republican I've ever met what the hell can be their problem to be voting Republican when it's killing them and their families, and almost every one of them has referred to this one point. Doesn't matter how sanctimonious they ever get; it's JUST as wrong when we do it.
HOWEVER, I mean what I said @ 111!!!!!!!
actually Cops do test out tasers-not the same as prison, asswipe (Rivkin), but closer to waterboarding IMHO.
This disgusting animal, would no more subject himself to water boarding, then he would join the military and go to Iraq and I bet he has no kids over there, like all the murders, liars and cut throats in this administration.
Please, just 10 minutes with this smarmy fatso. (and I'm a peace loving old lady) I'm so sick of this country discussing torture. He's almost tempted to be waterboarded? That guy hasn't' even been tempted to go on a diet. What a tool. what the fuck happened to america? oh yea, everybody's shopping at costco, getting iphones and snacking at starbucks.
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