Bill Moyers On Democracy for Pakistan
By Nicole Belle Friday Nov 09, 2007 7:17pm
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Bill Moyers looks at the quandary we find ourselves in Musharraf's Pakistan vis à vis stability in the Middle East that has eerie parallels to our schizophrenic relationship with Saddam Hussein in Iraq:
Musharref and Saddam Hussein, our friend only twenty years ago, were cut from the same cloth...so once again America's support of a dictator has backfired. Musharraff now says elections will be held by February and he'll quit the army...but he'll still be the man in power so we face a quandary: back a dictator against his own people in the name of a failed strategy to fight terrorists...or back the people and risk democracy. The U.S. invaded Iraq saying democracy was just around the corner. but more than four years of war produced chaos, not democracy.
And proof positive that information is the great democratizer, even though Musharraf silenced the news media, pictures of the rebellion (would that our own lawyers and judges feel as strongly here about the flagrant violations of the law) make their way worldwide via the Internet.
You can watch the entire program and more here.
Steve Clemons of The Washington Note and the NY Sun's Eli Lake debate where the U.S. policy on Pakistan went wrong.
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Good thing this dictator is on our side, otherswise we'd have to invade
Meant to say otherwise. and frist
Bush must be jealous of what you can get away with in Pakistan.
Disregard of the constitution and Democracy seems to be the common bond between Bush and Musharraf. Go figure! We will have to deal with it when ever we ever decide we want Democracy once again.
How many Nukes did Bush supply Pakistan with?
Iran, Pakistan reach gas pipeline deal AP - 28 minutes ago
TEHRAN, Iran - Iran and Pakistan have reached a deal to build a multi-billion-dollar pipeline to transport natural gas between the two countries, Iranian state television reported Saturday.
Oooops
The problems for Musharraf were caused by Bush Co.
The reason;
A gas pipeline from Iran to India/China, the contracts are getting signed in thirty days, and the last minute effort was to send that corrupt whore Benazir Bhutto, the swindling fraudster.
She is being coached by the British, and so far no joy.
Invading Pakistan is not an option, cuz they have the nukes, and we know they can drop these too. So all this softly softly and high wire act to sink the pipe line contract.
Free trade my foot
W. Scott Thompson issues a quiet note of caution against demonizing Musharraf:
http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Saturday/Columns/20071110082727/A...
Musharref declaring martial law is just a test to see how people react. Then Bush is going to try the same thing. I only hope the US people will be as active as the Pakistanis. I doubt we will see any fat cat American lawyers on the streets though.
Bravo Bill. Boy I sure am glad they didn't win the battle to gut PBS.
It's all about the pipeline.
So... We have a dictator who overseas a democracy or what? So if we back him we save democracy in Pakistan (the most dangerous country in the world! - so says Newsweek and National Geographic). Or we could back Musharref, "An American pawn", says a friend from Kuwait, or we could back the people and destroy democracy forever. This is a very convincing argument...
... This is when Borat, would say, "Not!". :)
If Pakistan was a democracy, we wouldn't be able to exert control. It behooves the neo-cons to support a dictatorship there.
Oh yeah, at the same time, we'll invade the supposedly most democratic nation in the middle east (Iran). Hey, at least they have elections. :)
Musharraf will most likely be Diemed.
Then we will install another Dictator. Don't worry. I mean what could possibly go wrong?
Peace.
Great, so when do we just nuke ourselves and end our self made misery?
But chimpy, you said you'll go where the terrorists are. Your cowboy wannabe ass said you gonna smoke em out. Then you said they are jealous of our freedom. I'm sure glad Pakistan is a democracy. What color fingers are the Pakistanis gonna have after their fake election? You like yellow, chimpy?
I'm sure glad you got this under control. Are you thinking about a shock and awe mission? Dumbass.
Sheldon Spencer @ 9:
I know for a fact that if there is a large scale revolt in the US, they will hold all detainees in a convention center or other large facilities. They cut all power and halt all money withdrawals. Next mail will be withheld then medicines.
I will not let them take me.
And he wore a kingly crown;
And in his grasp a sceptre shone;
On his brow this mark I saw -
'I AM GOD, AND KING, AND LAW!'
This was a practice run for Bush, just as Israel's bombing of Syria couple of months ago.
Cheney set these practice run to iron out the problems for marshal law in our country....
I recall hearing the following in/around 2003 from this administration:
Tyrant dictator
WMD's/nukes
Breeding ground for terrorists
Threat to Middle East stability
Democracy missing from the country
These five reasons were supposedly the basis for our unilateral invasion of Iraq, and lately, the same for Iran.
To Pakistan anyone? Why don't send about 150,000 troops over THERE and take of them. Surely we'll be greeted by the masses with flowers and cheers.
What's wrong Dumbya? Dick? Condi ? Cat got your tongue?
Idiots.
Our country looks like the biggest bunch of fools EVER. I know, let's elect Hillary or Giuliani and make it ALL better.
Flush the toilet Marge.....this shits gettin' old.
I smell something bigger. We pressured Musharraf to allow Bhutto in. She assumes power and allows US forces into the country. We've had years to plan it and billions of dollars to line up key millitary leaders in that country to help. We will once again roll the dice and via hopefully peaceful coup and occupy another muslim country. Thus not only controlling most of the energy reserves in the middle east, but also access to it (the oil, gas pipelines from Iran).
. . . would that our own lawyers and judges feel as strongly here about the flagrant violations of the law . . .
What does that mean, Nicole?
The ABA has come out and condemned a lot of what Bush has done.
At the last state bar chapter convention that I attended (where CA attorneys, law students, etc) propose legislation to be submitted) there were all sorts of anti-Bush measures on the table, and some interesting proposals to amend the Constitution and protect the bench.
And we in criminal defense are so often the last line of defense for civil liberties in this kind of environment, working tirelessly to suppress evidence obtained through illegal searches and seizures, filing the habeas motions, etc.
And if Bush ever tries to pull precisely what Musharraf did, and actually declares martial law, you can bet that I and many colleagues will be out there risking our lives, fortunes and sacred honors.
Moyers is a national treasure
I think the people who write Bush's speeches write Musharraf's speeches. Seriously, compare their speeches. Musharraf quoted Abe Lincoln...ummm, why? Is he speaking propaganda to Americans? His Pakistani people don't know who Lincoln is!!! Musharraf is blatantly speaking to Americans! Not to his own people! And do his people speak English? I didn't know that! Because Musharraf gave his speech in English! So who's he trying to propagandize to? His own people or the American people? And he said he's been fighing terrorism since 7 years ago. Hmmmm....2007 - 7 = 2000!!! When Bush became president! Who the fuck is writing Musharraf's speeches??????????
judging from the video, Big Dan, his people do speak English. in fact, many countries teach english to their students. and since the USA is such an economic and military power in the world, it is understood for the most part that knowing English is a tool too valuable to be without. it is only here that we consider it patriotic in many places, if you are ignorant of all languages except one.
Musharraf and his dictatorship is what caused the radicalization of Pakistanis. This video explains Pakistan's recent history, albeit in a rather humorous way that drives the message home:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRhO5_EekCo
The bottom line is, America's Foreign policy is the reason behind the radicalization of many countries in modern history. Pakistan is no exception, and surely Afghanistan was no exception in the late 70s and early 80s when the U.S. propped and backed extremely radical Muslims in hopes of driving out the Soviets. It worked, but it came back to haunt us later.
I'm not going to get into the "heckuva job" the CIA did in South America in the 70s when they backed terrorist organizations and death squads.
Call Marshall Law - Incarcerate opposition - then call for election must have been Bush plan.
You'd think we'd learn from our mistakes fighting "the threat of communism".
I love Bill Moyers work. I'd just started regularly viewing on the website.
But today they switched over to flash player?! BOOO! Thumbs down.
I ca-.....n't stand the br-.......eaking up of t-......he sound and video fro-.......m crappy fla-.....sh!!!!
WTF, WMV, QT, RA, MP4, OGG, MKV, MPG -- whatever! Anything is better than flash. Grr. Looked like a good few pieces too.
Well there is the proof positive that we never learn from our past. We only keep making the same mistakes over and over and over again. Moyers could have pointed out that Bin Laden was "our friend" too, in days gone by, because he was fighting the russians. Remember Reagan in his inimitable wisdom "the enemy of our enemy is our friend"? That seems to be the thinking of all stupid people in power. We have never dealt fairly and honestly with the middle east, always trying to cheat those people out of the oil that is their inheritance and their birthright. We have helped to overthrow democratically elected leaders who were looking out for the interests of their people and installed despots and dictators who would kowtow to us and hurt their people. We have mad friends with dictators and despots, armed them, watched them slaughter their own people as long as they were serving our interests and then feigned outrage when they stopped doing our bidding.
Our whole middle east policy for the 50 to 75 years has been a complete and total disaster, and we have all suffered for it. But the powers that be, are playing the same stupid game again. For a self proclaimed "christian" country, we haven't behaved very "christian" to the people in the part of the world that Christ came from. Greed begets disaster, but greedy people are very stubborn in their blindness to that fact. Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting different results is crazy. Perhaps it is time we gave crazy a rest and tried a new tactic. Perhaps it is time to try fair and honest dealing.
I'll keep backing Musharraf. It's part of a wider war. The War On Terra.
The pipeline to India and China explains why China will be 'diversifying' their currency holdings. Iran won't take dollars, only euros. I bet India and China won't like us starting a war with their primary oil and gas supplier either. Could you imagine how pissed off everyone here would be if natural gas from Canada and oil from Mexico suddenly stopped flowing. Especialy the natural gas, it gets pretty cold up here in Minneapolis, Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Buffalo, Boston, New York, Philly etc. etc. etc......
jr @ 24:
Moyers is a national HERO.
Ever wonder how many of the CIA black sites are in Pakistan or how much of our dirty work is done by Pakistan? Musharraf’ may not only an ally, but also a partner in crime as well. Musharraf’ knows where the bodies are buried. That may be the biggest threat to the Bush folks.
Look at that clip again and know that what you are watching is a very probable future of our own. Should that come to pass, let us hope that the judges and lawyers, politicians(right) and citizens act with as much integrity and courage as the Pakistanis.
Should such a thing come to pass, Bush or his totalitarian successors won't have to shut down the airwaves. They'll simply arrest Bill moyers, Keith Olbermann and Jack Cafferty and that will silence all dissent.They'll only have to close one radio station - Air America. The current propaganda networks and printed press will continue doing their work of subverting America. The voice of legitimate traditional journalism is so weak and feeble now that it will take only moments to silence it. What the government will do is shut down the internet. Then we will be back to pamphleteering and couriers. But, that's how information got around during the Revolutionary War. Could work again.
We have such a long history of supporting dictators it's not even funny. If you don't know who I am referring to then do a little work and look it up. There is this thing called the internet.
Meanwhile back at the ranch,
Anyone recollect the Rose Revolution?
Those rainbow coloured revolutions, that helped the oppressed masses to come out and invite a better tyrant that before to be installed as the big cheese?
At Least Musharraf, did not have the tent cities, and the music, dancers, actors, bands, singers, etc. He is just plain old fashioned and Bush calls him ´Democratic´.
On the other hand Mikhail Saakashvili has been shooting Georgians like fish in a barrel, and not a one of the corporate media pundits have even been hinting at it. The closest to acknowledgement has come from ;¨The top U.S. official for the Caucasus¨, unnamed though he remains, however he praises President Saakashvili, and advises him to lift the emergency, ie not to shoot too many punters, it does not look good on the TV.
Top U.S. official backs Georgia's embattled leader
I love the smell of democracy in the morning, or was it napalm?
Ted @ 38 :
Same in the Ukraine.
The best part is, the Russians guy and the wests guy were cooperating with each other. You might remember them, the Russian guy supposedly poisoned the wests guy with some 'poison' that is only deadly if you freeze it and bash in their heads with it. (Think it was Dioxin, not sure).
And not like that former spy they poisoned.. and was able to last a few days and tell everyone his story. Must have been the Russians. His ties with the Russian mafia probably had nothing to do with it.
I think if these guys want you dead.. you would be dead.
frank @39:
You bet, Litvinenko in fact was an MI6 (British SIS) asset, and your observations about the poisoning of Yushchenko, are pleasant reminder of the nous power of the ordinary folks, thanks for the observation.
However, the most funny memory of Yoshchenko affair was the Austrian doctor whom had said there was no proof of poisoning, taking flight and running away in front of a European TV camera crew, while saying I have received credible death threats for what I have said, and I am not hanging around this town any more, that poor bastard learnt not to tell the truth in our times pretty fast.
Ukrainian situation is even more murkier, and getting no attention either, as you have pointed out, the whole of plans are unravelling, but the same bunch of operators are still trying their luck again, and again, it is like watching an insane gambler in a casino, trouble is these bastards are gambling away our lives.
It's all very bad, indeed. Bush will continue to support Musharraf. So much for democracy: he didn't really mean it anyway. It just sounds good on American TV.
The "war on terror" comes first, at all costs. It's makes the rich richer and Bush commander-in-chief (free-to-do-any-damn-thing-he-pleases-- forever.) And that is IT in a nutshell. Even martial law in the USA would be "legal" and he'd get away with it. No need for elections while the terrorist menace is still free. (Unless, of course, everyone put down their VISA cards and took action.)
Dictatorship and Democracy are coming at a head. They can't mix like oil and water.
How come Pakistani lawyers have a bigger pair of rocks on average than American lawyers?
Somehow I just don't see trial lawyers here being the first to throw rocks and get arrested when the Blue Blood club finishes their takeover of American government... (except for maybe John Edwards)...
Edwin @ 41:
Wait I though Bush once supported Musharraf, but then stabbed him in the back to bring back the lady in question?
Isn't that why she is there? I though Bush forced that issue. I think this is a soft play by the administration for regime change, since Musharraf as show he simply isn't interested in clearing out the cobwebs in NW Pakistan where the terrorists are regrouping and training. That last capture of his troops was quite embarrassing to everyone.
Now, I'm not sure it's a smart play. And the Pakistani public sure seems to view both of them as U.S. puppets now. Pity. I supposed eventually they'll choose a more pleasing anti-U.S. "homegrown" hero. He, of course, will turn out to be the most unpleasant dictator of all that rules from fear with an iron fist while actively supporting terrorists against the U.S. That is ALWAYS how these things go... almost like clockwork...
Bill Moyers last sentence in this editorial should be understood by all Americans.
"Risking their lives for the Constitution"...........
Maybe these people just really want TRUE Democracy more or they just understand their Constitution better than us?
Ted @ 38:
The U.S. is preparing the ground for another Cold War with the Russians, only this time, Georgia will be a U.S. ally. Who knows, we might even see the propping up of a wall separating East Tbilisi and West Tbilisi.
AMERICAN should take examples from the pakistan people who would fight for their constitution and civil rights from a tyrant dictator. These were lawyers, judges, civil rights activist and people who truly believe in the rule of law, their constitution and understand that civil liberty is being destroyed when government does not adhere to the system of DEMOCRACY. The passion and outrage of the people clearly are demonstrated.
There are still AMERICANS who have clearly forgotten or does not know their HISTORY. AMERICA must demand that elected officials to adhere to the rule of laws and our U.S. Constitution. DEMOCRACY is defined by it's citizens and not an At-WILL defined by a few elected officials.
@ Tom:
Correct. The thing people need to realize is that no one cares primarily about democracy.
If it works out like that, fine. If not, they will have a reason to attack the current guy.
My problem with the people are that they are BSing themselves when they think their or any other country is really out there fighting for freedom and democracy.
@ OP:
Maybe the difference in Pakistan is that they have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
The US think they have everything to lose and nothing to gain. An illusion upheld by the powers that be.
If the people are in a *positive* state of mind, they will do anything to stay in that mindset.
Positive might mean the illusion of freedom and democracy or that your government is defending you from the bad guys.
One reason for the constant terror threat in the US. Give the people the idea that without you their lives would not be positive and thus are positive (even if it really sucks) and they support you.
But make sure the perceived threat seems to threaten their way of life. And it could even be as banal as gay-marriages.
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