Biden: Pakistan At Risk For Extremist Revolution If US Doesn't Act
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Joe Biden says the U.S. should consider Pat Leahy's proposal that "U.S. aid to the Musharraf government should stop until constitutional order, civil liberties and judicial independence are restored, until political prisoners are released, and until free and fair elections are allowed." That's probably not a bad idea, especially seeing as how we're just finding out that "the great bulk of the more than $10 billion we've given to Pakistan since 9/11 has been in the form of unsupervised and unaudited cash transfers" with which Musharraf has been free to do whatever he wants. He then sums up what we're facing in Pakistan right now about as well as anyone:
Blitzer: How worried are you Senator about Pakistan's nuclear arsenal: the security of those nuclear bombs?
Biden: I'm very concerned about it, not immediately but over the next year to two years. Look Wolf, Pakistan is bigger than Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and North Korea combined. There's 156 million people. They have 24 to 55 nuclear weapons. They have not only the bomb, the thermonuclear device, they have the missile that can couple with the bomb and it can fly all the way to the Mediterranean.
I mean, here we're fixating on Iran and here you have a country that in fact if you don't get some accommodation for the vast middle of that country, I worry that over time you wind up with a situation like you had with the Shah of Iran 30 years ago. The moderates got so frustrated, they joined with the extremists. What happened? The Shah got overthrown, then the moderates got crushed by the extremists. This is not an easy thing. This requires a policy, an overall policy including an Afghan policy which affects what's going on in Pakistan.
That's why many now consider Pakistan to be "The Most Dangerous Nation in the World."
Emptywheel asks if you feel safer yet when the White House refuses to discuss the Pakistani nuclear program publicly.
common sense.
A pair of id10ts trying to struggle for some credibility.
Bullshit, that means we have to think, and be logical, and things!!!!!!!
Nah, never, ever, let us bomb them too, it is much easier.
Hang on, just remembered they have nukes, well we just ................. dick where are you? Oh dick, dicksy tricksy where are you?
I know for certain it doesn't bode well having the Chimp-in-Charge at the helm A f*ckup here could change the gene structure in humans for centuries
Yea? So if a sane policy is imperative, why are the Democrats waiting and delaying on impeachment?
America under bush/cheney is the number one most dangerous country in the world and then Pakistan. it's very surprising that the money we are sending to this dictator leader in pakistan is enough to support the increase congress is asking for health care for our own children. the money is being stolen by someone that could include bush/cheney, they lost an entire pallet of money in iraq and didn't seem phased at all.
if pakistan is the most dangerous nation on earth what does that make US? jeez. we can't even finish one invasion before talking up a new one. we want to do three at a time. i'd say that's pretty dangerous.
I'll say it again. The most murderous, blundering administration in the history of our country. And we are all going down the tubes because of it.
To get prepared I suggest everybody get:
1.gold
2.silver
3.beans and rice by 100lb. bags
4.gravity water filter
5.main battle rifle
6.hogleg
7.axe
8.cooking oil
9.basic meds and antibiotics
10.generator
11.flashlights and batterys
12.shortwave radio
13.a hand cranked food grinder,this will enable you to process the tougher meat like jack-rabbit or dog.
14.a bow and arrow will allow you to harvest animals without drawing attention.
15.bullet proof vest and kevlar helmet optional,I have an original WW2 nazi helmet so I will go unnoticed mingling amongst feds.
You know, this notion of the "Most Dangerous Nation in the World" got me to thinking: What is the rubric used to make that determination?
Most military invasions?
Most weaponry?
Most sophisticated weaponry?
Most polluting?
As I try to come up with objective standards, what comes to mind is a nation other than Pakistan.
L.A. Confidential @ 9:
Time and time again I am astonished by your wit and acumen. But, what the hell is a hogleg?
L.A. Confidential @ 9:
i agree except for #1. if you are going to get gold, get gold coins from 1933 back. at this time they are protected and can not be confiscated by the govt.
I find it funny how pliable the neo-cons' support of democracy is. The redstaters all support Bush's Musharraf policy reflexively. Why? Well probably because they don't see what the brown people over there are complaining about. To them authoritarianism is a warm bath. One should splash in it; enjoy it.
Jo @ 11:
Thats slang for oversized male genitalia.
Or a a big ass marijuana cigarette.
a Bush clusterf a day keeps the media focused on Stacy Peterson's disappearance
What? Far too much bitching about invading Iran on the world blogosphere?
I see the focus was shifted to another country!
Miro @ 5:
because LIEberman give the repugs a standoff in the Senate, where the trial would be! Add the four booshDog Dinos and you have an acquittal, thereby establishing chainey's actions as precedent with legal standing. the 60 needed in the senate actually IS a necessity for the cleansing of government. The 'veto proof majority' is not just an empty slogan. The big dilemma is: can the corporatist dems be trusted?
my own answer is 'no'!
Pakistan gets a pass because it is an unstable country with nukes. It is easy to see why country the US is sabre-rattling at would be scrambling to nuke up. Its the universal leveller.
The US is a bully to all those without nukes. Those with nukes even without NPT? They're ok by Bush!
=my2c
BC
L.A. Confidential @ 15:
Yes, I like this one better. Although...............
Jo @ 8:
not all of us! some of us have gubmint contrakkks and tax breaks.
Bart @ 10:
Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and it is us."
Miro @ 5:
Because the folks that own their asses, lock stock and barrel, coincidently the same folks who own the ReThugs, say, 'No, no, no....I ain't gonna go to
rehabimpeachment!'But wait!
Dennis the Menace is on the move. Ya never know....shit happens and I sure hope it happens all over Queen Nancy and 'The Rabbit' Emmanuel.
Really I do.
Bart @ 10:
OK, I'll bite. Which nation comes to mind?
CoIntelPro @ 18:
Wait a minute. Can Bush veto his own impeachment? Just askin'.
L.A. Confidential @ 14:
that genitalia comes in caliber .38 or larger, don't it? with a barrel at least 3 inches?
Eamon @ 24:
Iran! you gotta check the crib notes!
CoIntelPro @ 26:
That wouldn't be recommended since the only thing worse then taking a bullet is being laughed at by whatever women are left to mate with when you drop your drawers.
If Congress impeaches Bush he'll simply issue a signing statement and continue on his merry way.
More to the point, however, I find it so telling that Joe Biden, like all the other establishment foreign policy wonks, still refuses to imagine a world in which everything doesn't revolve around the United States. It's as if he simply assumes that we must continue the policies that lead people to want to kill Americans, just with more finesse or something.
Earth to Joe! Stop meddling in other peoples' affairs! Pull U.S. troops from their garrisons around the world and bring them back within our borders. Stop selling weapons to everyone and their mothers. Stop subverting democratically elected governments and supporting dictatorships with our tax dollars. What part of this don't you understand?
I swear to god, if other countries even tried to do the kind of shit the U.S. does routinely, every rifle-toting, flag-waving, red-neck yahoo would rise up and demand blood. And yet Biden and his ilk just proceed with business as usual and then express surprise when the AK-47 toting, Koran-waving, tribal yahoos rise up and come gunning for us.
Americans would be as safe as Swedes, Finns, Icelanders, and the Swiss if our government would stop fucking people.
nezua limón xolagrafik-jonez @ 7:
It isn't 3 at a time, its 3rd time lucky.
CoIntelPro @ 27:
Duh! I'm such an idiot. I forgot how resourceful those Eye-ranians are with with their GDP(4% USA's).
L.A. Confidential @ 28:
Not all of us are that particular. I mean, a bird in the hand and all that, even if it is a "stubby".
CoIntelPro @ 27:
Yer fuckin kiddin right?
In case you aren't, I'll give you a hint. That country is one inch south of most of Canada.
Jo @ 11:
sawed off shotgun!
Such.foolishness!...imagine.Bush.and.his.people.obsessing.about.Iran.when.neighboring.Pakistan.has.always.been.the.real.potential.threat...
more.clues.that.Bush.never.did.know.the.first.thing.about.his.job...(brokenspacebar,sorry)
[I got it. Edited-Sitemonitor]
Not to put too big a wrench into what Biden is saying BUT things in Pakistan are really really dicey with the military having incredible power. Look at how power has been "transferred" from one leader to another since the 1960's.
Removing funds from Musharraf may drive another military coup. It may not make him turn back to democracy. . . and if he does, what happens if they elect leaders we don't like?
Starting with the installation of the Shah over us removing a democracy elected leader - we don't have the greatest reputation in that area of the world as it is.
But also take a good look at a map and look at the crescent of instability we are creating . . . it was our policies, not just the money, that put Musharraf here. If an extremist government is elected the last piece in that puzzle is Iran.
Chaos is scary for any people and it will only supercharge the Taliban and al-qeada and any other tin plated despot.
And we are creating all of it with our cowboy diplomacy, devoid of all understanding of the international climate, nuance and balance. For 6 years we've been arrogantly stomping and strutting around over there. And the rest of the world is paying, and will continue to pay.
Good job Bush, and all who votred for him. I only hope my friends survive.
Um... You know, if you check your history, it's Trinidad. Followed by Cabinda.
You just wait: The final wheels on the axles of evil have not yet been revealed.
A lol before bedtime: Huffpo article says Musharraf and Bhutto both called Biden before they called Bush. I can imagine their dread after the Biden call - "ugh, I suppose we really should phone that chimp now". One thing Bhutto & Musharraf seem to agree on: Bush is stoopid
It's never, ever been about "spreading freedom" or defeating "terrists" or any of that tripe.
I am impressed with Biden today on the talking head shows. Somewhat after this clip (?) is when he puts the smackdown on Wolf when Wolf tries to manufacture a man-fight between him and Obama.
Eamon @ 38:
Ha! funny funny!
We live in a Shitocracy.
Clytemnestra @ 36:
Right. I submit that Musharraf has been waiting for this very moment. Now that we're bogged down in Iraq with sights on Iran, having to deal with the Turks etc. - he figured no one would notice if he just, you know, siezed power by force. I mean what with all the chaos going on, what's one more power grab?
L.A. Confidential @ 28:
ok, .45 caliber! :)
xoites defends Constitution @ 41:
Hence the fly buzzing around Condi
Jo @ 32:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
In the six years of compromising our principles since 9/11, our democracy has so steadily been defined down that it now can resemble the supposedly aspiring democracies we’ve propped up in places like Islamabad. Time has taken its toll. We’ve become inured to democracy-lite. That’s why a Mukasey can be elevated to power with bipartisan support and we barely shrug.
This is a signal difference from the Vietnam era, and not necessarily for the better. During that unpopular war, disaffected Americans took to the streets and sometimes broke laws in an angry assault on American governmental institutions. The Bush years have brought an even more effective assault on those institutions from within. While the public has not erupted in riots, the executive branch has subverted the rule of law in often secretive increments. The results amount to a quiet coup, ultimately more insidious than a blatant putsch like General Musharraf’s.
miss_kitty @ 44:
kak·is·toc·ra·cy (kăk'ĭ-stŏk'rə-sē, kä'kĭ-) pronunciation n., pl. -cies.
meaning: Government by the least qualified or most unprincipled citizens.
I lived through the Cuban missile crisis when everyone is alleged to have been quaking in their boots over the prospect of imminent nuclear war. I have never been so afraid of nuclear weapons falling into malicious hands as I have been the last week, with the deterioration in Pakistan.
I have a proposal: I suggest that we throw our unconditional support behind whichever potential leader in Pakistan agrees to immediately turn their nuclear weapons over to a responsible third party, and dismantle any capacity they have to make more.
Policy from a neocon chimp? Sorry, that's not in the repertoire of possibilities. Temper tantrums... yes. Whims...yes. Self-defeating vindictiveness...yes. Bumbling...yes. But, no policies....they require rational thought.
I have been afraid of nuclear weapons falling into malicious hands since Bush was selected!
Now that we’re bogged down in Iraq with sights on Iran, having to deal with the Turks etc. - he figured no one would notice if he just, you know, siezed power by force.
I think just about every element in every nation that was planning something nefarious is taking note of that bogging down. Of course, there is air power, but history has shown that that doesn't win wars.
And since the US is bogged down economically (see what happened when the Chinese 'diversified their portfolio') it has essentially become the puppet of foreign lenders, unable to chart it's own destiny.
Carl,
Can't do that, its a no show. The "sworn" enemies of Pakistan is India. India has nukes. India hasn't signed the non proliferation treaty (not sure about Pakistan). We support the Indians even though they didn't sign the treaty because Bush's buddies get rich selling them nuclear technology for "commercial, non military" purposes.
I swear we should get rid of the CIA and cut the military spending down to not be more than any other country. We have done nothing but screw ourselves when we've meddled in other peoples affairs and most of the meddling started to get some 1% richer than they already were.
Nick @ 51:
Right - good show.
If only the commenters on C&L ran the world... ;-)
Ohh BTW, the US was pressuring Mussaraf into a power sharing deal because he wasn't getting rid of the extremist. Obviously, he didn't like that idea. He went along with it until it came time to actually do something, then he seized power to "combat the extremist." Hes no different than Saddam, just another cookie-cutter dictator we've helped prop up because we couldn't really care less about democracy or freedom for our own citizens much less anyone else.
For excellent commentary on Middle Eastern affairs check out http://www.juancole.com/
thats usually where I go. Juan Cole is a middle eastern scholar and generally right on the mark on these sort of things.
More media attention on guys like Joe Biden or Chris Todd. Yes in my dreams.
Hype-Jersey @ 39:
As uncharismatic as he is, Biden brings the goods. I knows his shit backward and foreward. We DO need experience and competence, NOT just "charisma" and "clinton-nosalgia." Biden can appoint Obama the head of the Dept. of Education and Hillary the Dept of the Health.
Biden says thermonuclear? That's a hydrogen bomb. Pakistan has the H-bomb?
"That’s why many now consider Pakistan to be “The Most Dangerous Nation in the World.”
Pakistan has been the most dangerous country in the world since it got the nuclear bomb, which is twenty years ago. NEVER has had a democracy, NEVER has had a peaceful decade, and probably never will.
Because of the Cold War India, or obvious natural ally, was a Soviet ally, and Pakistan was the US ally. But the current Bushco alliance is based on putting through Cheney's Pipelinestan project, running Tajik and other Caspian oil and LNG to Pakistani ports (and into India, though those agreements change constantly). It is NOT the Cold War division that keeps up backing Pakistan. It is that they have Arabian Sea ports on the south side of the Gulf, where Iran cannot (and would not) attack the petroleum loading docks.
$10 B already given to Pakistani elites -- called 'war on terror' funds, but actually Whorin' Oil funds. A lot of money to be made -- who cares that Pakistan is the main terrorist base in the world? No problem.
Dark Cloud @ 57:
He's wrong. Good catch -- more bad news for Biden's claims of superior foreign policy knowledge.
Ricky @ 52 "India hasn't signed the non proliferation treaty (not sure about Pakistan)."
Are you kidding?
"Only four nations are not signatories: India, Israel, Pakistan and North Korea." -- wikipedia
Ricky @ 52 "The "sworn" enemies of Pakistan is India."
One clarification of that concept is that India shares considerable cultural population with Pakistan. The Punjab was split during the Partition, so families have members on either side of the border.
India is the world's biggest democracy. It is not a warmongering power, and the reason why Pakistan is India's enemy is because of Kashmir and the total instability of Pakistan's endless string of bad governments.
Paul in LA @ 61:
Jammu and Kashmir actually
Before partition in 1947 there was no Pakistan, it was part of India, so was Bangladesh. . . which after partition was called East Pakistan, but there was no land corridor to connect them.
The U.S. should go into Pakistan and do what it does best, kill indiscriminately and intervene in other people's affairs, when it's own house is in disarray. Go USA.
You do that Joey Biden , scare the crap out of Musharraf by cutting off his supply of P - 3 Drones , " take a real hard look " , to force him down the road of democracy . Are you fricken serious ? A Q. Kahn was trotting around the GlobE , selling nuclear weapons , Pakistan ISI help set up the Taliban , Generals are trafficking in Narcotics coming from Afghanistan and all of this has been going on for YEARS and YEARS , and Torture and WHAT are we exactly getting out of all this ? Oh I forgot the Oil Pipeline Deal Musharraf signed with Karzai , after he was installed by bush . Ya it will run through Afghanistan and Pakistan , the deal was signed WEEKS, after invasion of Afghanistan .
From what I understand , Pakistan Military is in control of the nukes , regardless of who is in power . So this threat that "radicals" or "Islamists " will take over is exaggerated . In addition U.S. military is closer to Pakistani Nuclear than any islamists group , according to intelligence reports . They have teams in place in case of emergency or conflict .
I don't know what planet Biden lives on or what agenda he's pushing, but ,Musharraf has been a DICTATOR , since he took office, so how long is he going to " take a look ' .
Kahoneez @ 64:
Even if free elections were held tomorrow morning, the radical Muslim parties would only get 40% of the popular vote, at best. Most Pakistanis want a real democracy and they want a better life.
That percentage was much lower before Musharraf came in. It was in the 6% range as far as I recall.
I think this is all overlooking one fact. Even if the extremists took control of Pakistan, it still wouldn't mean anything as to what they'd do. Cause of the deterrence. If they did launch a nuke on some nation, there'd be retaliation and complete destruction of the country.
Now as extremist as India and Pakistan are, and as much as they'd like to destroy one another, they don't. Which seems to me like an indication that extremists gaining control of the government of Pakistan would NOT be such a deal.
What we have to worry about is those extremists giving "nukes" to terrorist cells. In the form of football cases.
It might look like i'm bitching for no reason, but don't forget that Iran's policy is set after the very falsehood we're seeing here : that a state could actually nuke another state, without retaliation.
This is wrong. Look at the cold war and the situation with India and Pakistan.
My sense of black humor simply loves how we can contribute to a problem for nearly thirty years and still look so surprised when it blows up in our face.
Just once, i would like to see our foreign policy look at the long-term rather than the short term. Pakistan has been getting loads of money and weaponry from us for a long time. They developed their nuclear capability under our patronage, it got the wink, wink treatment...just keep funneling all this here money to the most radical and fundamental members of the mujahadeen so that they can keep killing Russians. After all, if we had to have a Vietnam experience the Russians should have to have one too, right?
And our behavior in Pakistan over the last 30 years is not hidden; in fact, it was one of the proudest foreign policy actions of the Reagan administration...that same list of names we read in the news today causing a world of trouble. The USofA is not the most dangerous nation in the world, the Vulcans are the most dangerous people in the world. We are the most stupid country in the world for letting them back into the halls of power so many times.
Sensible, smart and presidential! This guy should be leading the Democrat pack!
who said this first?
Ron Paul, that's who.
A consistant, noninteventionist foreign policy.
law of unintended consequences will get you every time.
In these troubled and dire time we live in, Joe Biden, to me, encompasses all that we desperately need for our nation:
1) Intelligence
2) Experience in ALL phases of government
3) Strength
4) Respect from world leaders
5) Diplomacy
6) Command of issues
7) Solutions to problems that face our nation
8) Honesty
9) Integrity
10) Respect and trust from his peers
11) Respect and trust from the people who follow him
12) an EXPERT in foreign policy
Joe Biden certainly meets ALL of the criteria above.
I pray and hope every day that Mr. & Mrs. America, the people of Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina know in their hearts, that if we lose Joe Biden, we'll have lost one of the best Presidents our nation will ever have.
Please watch a video I produced to show my support for Senator Biden. If you support him, please send the link below to family and friends, and ask them to do the same.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OtGCaqOdIJ4
Pakistan is the most dangerous nation in the world?
Has anyone looked at the U.S.?
Which nation has the best nukler weapons?
Which nation has the guy with the finger on the button and god to help him push it?
Which guy lives in a white house?
littlehorn @ 66:
Only in James Bond movies. Scientifically, it's impossible.
Soonerthought @ 68:
Democrat?
What is it with illiterate trolls?
Cheney @ 72:
OK, I've just come across this: Even Faux Noise says it's impossible. Is that good enough for ya? I mean, it's not some "libtard" (as some like yourself like to call it) newspaper like the NYT or anything....
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Fox_host_let_down_suitcase_nukes_1111.html
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