Las Vegas Democratic Debate: Obama And Clinton Battle To Get The Last Word
By Logan Murphy Wednesday Nov 14, 2007 8:01pm
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Tonight's Democratic Presidential Debate in Sin City started out with a bang -- obviously by design. It was all about Senator Clinton, as all questions led back to her in the early going.
When Senator Obama was asked a question about his criticisms of Hillary, he responded by accusing her of having a problem giving straight answers. Clinton shot back, criticizing Obama's health care plan. The sparks flew from there, with both candidates trying to get the last word. Wolf "The Beard" Blitzer had trouble keeping things under control and the audience even got in on the act.
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This is a forum, not a debate.
The rules were totally unfair. By allowing anyone who is attacked to respond, it guarantees maximum time for the frontrunner. No one is attacking Kucinich after all.
I was almost screaming at th T.V. I thought for awhile it was just a debate between Clinton and Obama
ohdave @ 2:
I agree with ohdave, this doesn't produce a true debate of issues and policy. Am I the only one who thinks this is unproductive? Why is the main focus of a debate "what is your opinion of Hillary Clinton", and subsequently, "Hillary, defend yourself"? Ask EACH of the candidates about issues that are applicable to the office of President, so that potential voters can make an educated decision about who should run the country. I don't care who can throw the most mud at the front runners, I want to know who can run this country.
Dog and pony show for the rubes.
Obama? Clinton? Who the hell are they? I thought this was a debate of Democratic Party canidates for the office of President of the USA. Where's Kucinich, the front runner? Where's Dodd? Where's Gravel? Oh Gravels across the street saying WTF! And I don't wonder why!
Wolf has been a terrible host doing Clinton's work for her
I used to hate when the right called CNN the Clinton News Network, but that's what it has been tonight.
The corporatist and the DLC gotta be loving this debate because everything is framed in their way. And the witch is winning of course because she has plants in the audience probably. Hillary is death itself. She is everything that is wrong with the democratic party.
Fighting for the last word is one thing, but if the Dems fought
this hard against the Bush administration and for us the lot less
trouble this country would be in today!
Jeez, I can't stand Hillary. I don't really know how anyone can willfully vote her knowing that she will bring back the Clinton Bunch. Sure they'll be better than the Bush bunch but it's really time to move away and trying something new. God knows things can't get any worse.
And if these Nevada brain dead sheep want to follow Hillary like they seem to be doing in the polls they deserve her and the democrats will loose in the general and hopefully will loose the senate and the house. Hillary will loose it for us. And even if she won nothing changes. It's the same old corporate rule.
toothless wolf - what a lightweight. wheres faux news when you need them?
Sorry, kids. Hillary will win.
Bill Clinton was a great president despite the sex scandals. Hillary will be a Democrat in the mold of Bill. And a popular president.
chris @ 3:
I thought the same thing! There needs to be a set of questions on the issues and equal time given to all candidates to answer them. The time for debates is after the primaries.
That clip is ridiculous. Nearly 5 minutes, and only 2 candidates spoke. The rest of them were just standing around. Not a big Chris dodd fan, but his clock is a great tool. It shows how the MSM is manipulating which message gets out, and who is silenced.
budda @ 10:
"hopefully"?
Now, I don't think Hillary is my cup of tea, but I'm not looking forward to a President Giuliani with a Republican congress...again.
Sinto @ 12:
How the hell was he a great President? Sure, he was a lot better than Bush daddy and son. But, he was a centrist. He had the Congress, Senate and Presidency and did nothing of great change. Instead he invaded Yugoslavia with typical American bravado, pushed through NAFTA and threw single mothers out on the streets with welfare "reform." To hell with the democratic party if we hold up Clinton as a model. Hold up FDR as a model and damn the Clinton royal family.
Demosthenes @ 15:
It's gotta get much worse before the American people wake up. And really isn't America a lost cause in a lot of ways? The corporate powers have too much power with nearly all candidates. There needs to be a change in the system - not just elected a new leader to lead the same old system. The same system that promised the blacks forty acres and a mule. The same system that signed those treaties with the native americans. The same system that passed NAFTA.
Obama is criticizing Sen. Clinton's vote on Iran, when he didn't even bother to show up for the vote! Geezz....
BAC
Jeez-marie! I really do not understand the virtriol about H. Clinton. She holds herself well under pressure, is well spoken and of all the candidates, knows damn well the right wing machine and I have no doubt would love to get in the house and kick some ass. B. Clinton was indeed the best president this country had seen in over twenty years and Hillary was a woman who didn't sit and play First Lady Second Fiddle until the misogynists started screaming for her to stop doing so much. Of course, then the same crowd says she hasn't done enough, the woman can't win for losing.
Hell Obama has little time in the Senate to speak of, the ones with comparable length of time in a large government office are Dodd (who has more of course) and Richardson. Give me a break.
As for the debate, this was only one clip, I'd imagine the rest included the other players? They (Clinton/Obama) even placed together with others on the periphery. I like Obama, in fact I'd think Obama would make a good running mate.
I got a question: The ending argument looks like it was set up to side line the other candidates..
It puts Obama & Hil up front. The average dodo will logically begin to not pay attention to the other people in the race.
So why is that? I hate to be a believer in conspiracy, but I wonder why the media is forcing this in to a Hil & Obama race?
Kucinich '08. He talks issues, he talks solutions, and he's not owned.
As for true overhaul, only revolution will see that and that's a long way down the road.
budda @ 16:
I completely agree with you on this. Why does everyone have this lovefest for Bill Clinton? Yes was not as bad as the Bush Co. but he was/is a Corporate Democrat just like his wife. If you want change in this country your not going to get it with a Clinton in the White House. Bush/Clinton/Buish/Clinton- yeah thats change
Senator Gravel’s Alternative Debate in Vegas!
Mike’s got a message. A real important one, too. He is going to be heard. Why watch a staged show? Watch it for real
Where to watch it? http://www.ustream.tv/Gravel2008
LIVE
RIGHT
NOW
STREAMING
Wedge issue, More Right wing Frames...
The Dodd clock should remove all doubt who the MSM wants to win. And with AIPAC's representative "moderating" itsa 2fer.
O'bama should of told Pat Roberton's protege' Wolf Blitzer to look up the word triangularization.
Peace.
Bread and circus's.
They are showing you who they will allow you to vote for, nothing more.
Like I said before, it's a dog and pony show and you are the paying customers.
Blitzer to Obama:
Come on, Blitzer. Everyone and his or her dog knows what triangulating means. I guess everyone but the beltway pundit elite.
There is no way that Hillary can win the general election -- she was far less popular than Bill. She is practicing a politcs of division that cannot win a general election. At the Jefferson Jackson dinner it sounded as if she wanted to go out and arrest all of the Republicans (or at least bake them.) Oh yes, that will win.
We have already voted for one president on the strength of their last name, and I do not think that the American people will make that mistake again. Nobody who has seen her in person can honestly believe that she would have even made it to the Senate if her last name was still Rodham.
chris Says: Why does everyone have this lovefest for Bill Clinton?
why do you hate him? jealous? Dems get blowjobs, Rethugs suck dick
go Hillary!
That's it!
Health Care! Not Insurance "Scam"
George (~Bush) @ 29:
agreed 100% - and the funny thing is she is more like a republican than they realize - if dems pick her then we deserve to loose the election
Obama never said lift the Cap!
He said adjust
agreed 100% - and the funny thing is she is more like a republican than they realize - if dems pick her then we deserve to loose the election
............
She is a dem and if she wins the nom you should vote for her or some GOPer will win the White House
you are brainwashed, step away from the tv/computer once in awhile
budda @ 16:
If you're a progressive no president is going to be progressive enough for you.
America is a diverse country so Clinton had to run as a centrist to appeal to a broad range of people. Bill Clinton was smart as a politician can be. And if running from the left would have gotten him into the White House he would have done it.
But it would not have worked. Hillary the centrist is front runner. The others are two digits or more behind her in the polls. So Hillary must be doing something right.
And Bill Clinton was RIGHT to sign the welfare reform bill. It was system that needed to be fixed. And good for him for standing up to those on the left who were against it.
That's the truth, Obama!
That was a perfect opportunity for Kucinich to jump in and point out the problem of relying on private insurance to provide "universal" healthcare. :(
The sad thing is most of you complaining about Clinton probably said he would have never been elected in 1992.
But he was. I think too many of you are suffering from Michael Moore syndrome. And then you keep wondering why all the far left candidates keep losing.
Hillary is not perfect but she is a million times better than the Republicans. These arrogant pricks need to be thrown out of office.
I don't think I've ever seen so many people who are so good at not answering anything ...... side swipes left right and centre !
A reason not to vote for Hillary:
She said in this debate that national security is more important that human rights.
Freedom IS a human right. What is the importance of security if you've sacrificed the very thing you're trying to secure?
Disgraceful. Absolutely disgraceful.
Sadly I believe a lot of Hillary backers are voting for Bill not Hillary. They think having Bill back in the WH is a good thing. Personally I don't believe she will let Bill do s**t.
There was an excellent point made here: the problem is not in mandating that everyone get healthcare. The problem is that people cannot afford health care. Another existing problem is that health insurance will not cover people with pre-existing conditions. Perhaps the health care plans intend to cover this, but how could they enforce if so.
Hillary Clinton is NOT in the mold of Bill Clinton.
She is to the right of Bill on labor. She is to the right of Bill on corporatism. She is to the right of Bill on militarism. She is to the right of Bill on environmentalism. She is to the right of Bill on Iraq. She is to the right of Bill on Iran. She is to the right of Bill on torture. She is to the right of Bill on privacy rights. And she is to the right of every single person on the Democratic debate stage on every single issue- every single one- without exception.
She is a DLC corporo-centrist warhawk. And she is farther right than any of the eight Democratic candidates.
Hers in an orientation that wholly excludes Progressivism.
Sinto @ 38:
I would like to hear who you define as "far left". And why.
What the heck was that person yelling???? I really want to know....
Does anyone know where Obama gets his 6% figure? As in, anyone making over $97000 per year is in the upper 6% of incomes? That doesn't sound right to me.
In the first place, I find it hard to believe. I mean, in some places in the country, like New Jersey - and not even the nice areas, $100k annually won't pay your rent/mortgage.
Secondly, it depends on the number of dependents. For someone who has children, $100k can go pretty quickly, no matter where you live.
liberAL @ 41:
I'm voting for her because I think she will do better than Bill did in the WH.
Hillary won hands down.
Edwards looked like his petty little self and Obama was the king of doubletalk.
Onto the holidays. It's done.
KarlPinker @ 48:
She won because Wolf gave it to her.
Both of their health care plans suck a big one!
If forced to buy health care from one of there criminal insurance companies, I will spit on america and move to Ireland.
We have to keep Blitzer and Russert, with their shallow gotcha! questions, away from these (so called) debates.
Obama pulled his %-of-income numbers directly out of his ass.
He claims only %6 of the population makes over $98k per year, and compared HRC to Giuliani and Romney.
I checked it out, and his numbers are pathetic. The real numbers are:
19% between $75,000.00 and $100,000.00; and 16% over $100,000.00
Obama sincerely lost the little remaining respect I had for him tonight. What a total jackass.
Hype-Jersey @ 46:
I thought the same, and responded here and also wrote to his campaign. I find it repugnant that not only would he make up these numbers, but would also spew the vitriolic garbage that he did at HRC (no matter what you think of her, it was nasty and wrong), comparing her to Rudy and Mitt.
The real numbers are:
19% between $75,000.00 and $100,000.00; and 16% over $100,000.00
KarlPinker @ 48:
Karl.....It's still on!
Try again
KarlPinker @ 48:
You've got to be kidding. I didn't come away from that debate thinking Hillary won. I came away with a bunch of questions on the veracity of her health care plan.
One thing for sure about Old Joe - he's unscripted...
Joe Biden has more hair every time he shows up for a debate. How does he do it?
I too think it was unfair to compare Killer Hillary to Rudy or Mitt. She compares with Bush much better.
Peace.
erick @ 34:
I'm not sure who's brainwashed here. She doesn't often act like a Dem.
Hillary can afford diamond and pearls, but millions of americans are in financial trouble and going from paycheck to paycheck
It's the only thing shining up there.......
Give me a break!!
Another Plant
Glad to see Obama's adopting Rove's techiques and framing. "Flip-flop?" No self-respecting Democrat would ever use that term. The Republicans have flung it at Democrats since Jimmy Carter.
Obama wants to expand Faith Based Initiative, campaigns with an anti-gay preacher, supports an illegal immigration program that 70% of New Yorkers oppose, and Swiftboats Hillary. Not presidential in my opinion.
Volum @ 53:
Oh, I get it. According to the talking heads this wasn't a debate. It was a Hillary appearance. Gag.
budda @ 60:
Hillary was fighting for national healthcare in 1992. She and Bill kept corporations under control and had our economy in the best shape it had been in since Eisenhower. People had good jobs and there wasn't all of this outsourcing and cheap illegal workers. Obama can't even find his own legislative papers!
I want the League of Women Voters back in charge of
real debate between canidates
I can not believe how strange this debate was...holy cow...what the hell....so strange....Wolf should not be allowed to moderate- he has NO skills at this...pathetic...and I wish to hell that the Questions talked about things that matter...War, Healthcare,Torture, VETS, etc etc...Constitution and Impeachment....REAL issues.....
Here Here Ohio Proud that is a GREAT Idea....
mark @ 9:
No real Democrat would criticize Bill Clinton. Go over and post on Sean Hannity's site.
Demosthenes @ 15:
Buddha, you are a Republican troll.
Otay @ 44:
People who are so far to the left that they would rather have another Republican than Hillary or which ever Democrat is nominated.
budda @ 32:
Hillary is polling ahead of ALL the candidates in both parties.
kaT @ 69:
I've been a "real" Democrat for quite awhile and I used to passionately defend him. He's gone way down in my estimation. NAFTA bites and I have been very disappointed that he can never come out and criticize much shrub does. He could have an effective voice but he's refused to use it much these past 7 years.
In the shopping mall of America there are a lot of mannequins in power that we think represent us. The mannequins we think represent us play to the working class time and time again. A mannequin at the mall is dressed nicely in all the labor gear and supports all the progressive causes, but the mannequin can't talk and the mannequin can't walk. We got people who are supposed to represent change, but they don't have power. They are controlled by the same forces we are fighting against. It will take a revolution to really change anything and that can be done in the voting booth or in the streets.
enigma4ever @ 67:
It did have a kind of surreal quality to it.
I'l be glad when all this is over. Christ, it feels like years and years -- wait! It is years and years of this crap. The best corporate tool will "win", things will go pretty much along the same line, maybe less BOOGA BOOGA scare tactics but I'm not gonna bet on it. All we do now as a nation is sell weapons. We make nothing but we make war. Neverending war for profit. We spit on the rule of law, we have lost our civil rights, Habeus Corpus, most of the Constitution. Don't bet on a Clinton to turnit around. That will take another civil war.
That's... interesting. The applause seems more about cheering on a good fight than about anyone saying anything particularly stirring. Well, at least the sparks are flying and we see Democrats showing spine for a change. Let's hope whoever the nominee is can keep that streak going when dealing with the Republicans.
budda @ 16:
Thank you Budda! Clinton sure wasn't a great President for cannabis users. Marijuana arrests more than doubled under the administration of Mr. "I didn't Inhale."
http://www.marijuananews.com/marijuananews/cowan/norml_analysis_of_marij...
We cannabis users have long endured the fascist prohibition policies of BOTH major brand name parties. Few politicians have the courage to talk about ending the sacred cow that is the war on drugs. Thankfully, Kucinich has that courage, and it will be interesting to see how that plays out during his campaign.
Oh, and #6 is right. Kucinich is the frontrunner.
Well, at least I have made up my mind about who I will not nominate for the Dem candidate.
But now I have to choose among Kucinich, Edwards and Dodd.
Otay @ 79:
I would breathe a huge sigh of relief with any of those. I'm afraid it's going to be insured we'll never get to vote for them.
equilibrio @ 78:
equilibrio @ 78:
It sure did suck under Clinton in that respect.
He liked the drug war big time.
Do like I'm doing if you want real freedom, jump ship and head for Western Europe.
Belgium has weather like Marin County and Brussels is only 2 hours by rail from Amsterdam.
Mmmmm, Northern Lights. Fresh Northern Lights.
And none of this crap to deal with.
I can't wait.
Since I started voting in 1984, I've supported only Democrats and a handful of Greens, but I swear to God if Hillary Clinton is the Democratic nominee, I will vote a straight Republican ticket. Given the choice between a Republican running as a Democat, and a Republican running as a Republican, only a fool would support the former, and I'm not a fool.
Mike @ 83:
If your going to toss away your vote like that at least do us all a favor and write in Gore.
Or Kucinich, he doesn't have to win the corporate sponsorship to be a write in.
I am absolutely sick and tire of debates that cannot be debated on an adult level. Now we have to listen to the pundits talk about the audience not liking the men going after the one woman on stage. Are we supposed to vote for a woman simply because she is a women regardless of her political views(boys should not beat up girls) I personally am sick of Bush and Clinton and will never vote for either, ever again. The Dems debates are useless, they have no value. It seems like Hillary has already won because that is what the MSM tells me, so why should I bother watching the debates. I will never ever vote for Hillary, I will vote for Ron Paul or write in John Amatos name before I ever vote for her.
I hate, hate, hate, hate, hate Hillary. I would vote for GWB for a 3rd term before I vote for her.
Symes @ 82:
equilibrio @ 78:
Kucinich the front runner? Some cannabis being smoked on this thread....
what good is a tax break if you don't have enough money to be taxed.
budda @ 86:
Nice, I am too far away from BC to even know what they've got right now.
We can't be like Western Europe because this nation is piss scared of the word social.
So scared of anything even resembling socialism that it will go to the opposite extreme no matter how horrible it is to prove that we are not Socialists.
It appears that the fallout from the cold war wasn't radioactive after all.
My wife is my ticket to Belgium and I plan to use it. She thinks Americans are neurotic nut jobs anyway and can't wait to get home as is.
Coming Undone @ 85:
It seems like Hillary has already won because that is what the MSM tells me, so why should I bother watching the debates.
The people will believe what the media tells them they believe.....George Orwell
noen of these monkeys will attack the core problem - which is Health Insurnace Companies. They need to be taken out of the equation --- and nobody will address it.
Is the fact that Wolf Blitzer chooses to shave infrequently so consequential? I'd love it if the blog-gods stopped mentioning his facial hair in every god damn reference. Millions of men throughout the world have beards. What's the big fucking deal?
I'm still undecided, but after tonight I keep asking myself, "why not senator dodd?" he is increasingly proving to be the most sincere. What do you think about Dodd?
qwert @ 88:
Kaching! Give this man a cigar!
Getting back 10% of a $8000 a year tax bill ($35k a year) is only $66 a month.
And they will never give back that much anyway.
mark @ 9:
What does that MEAN...the "Clinton Bunch" EVERYTHING that has been thrown at them has always been proven to hold no water.
There is NO comparison between Bill Clinton and GWBush...the proof is in legislation and recorded for all time. Check out the signing statements both have issued...
The ONLY reason people like yourself is "piling on" her is the constant lies that republican assholes spread and the media disburses....
liberAL @ 41:
I'm voting for Hillary. But you know what...you'd be pretty damned stupid to not be thankful Bill is there too...you know WHY? Have you been paying ATTENTION to all of the damage bush has done?
Let's see...hmmma lightweight like Obama...or...two heavy hitters...to improve our country's outlook...ummmm
NO CONTEST
Symes @ 89:
BC is where its at right now for those in the states anyway. I plan to move to Canada when I'm done with school because you are right in that America is a lost cause. Even a blog like this that should have liberals in high numbers - even here someone like hillary has supporters. That says all that needs to be said. If intellectual people smart enough to follow politics on the blogs and news sites still support a right winger like hillary than there is no hope. If Hillary tried to run in the Netherlands they would laugh her out of town for being a fascist - how dare you want private companies to handle health insurance. She'd be laughed out of town.
Just for the record....Regardless of who wins the democratic primary...I will support that person because any of these people can be a monumental improvement over GWB.
erick @ 34:
You are brainwashed. Hillary is the corporate pick for president. She is the backup plan if the corporate repub to loses. She takes money from lobbyists and defense-contractors. Where do you think her loyalties lie?
Sinto @ 35:
I think you just proved the point you were arguing against. If Billy Boy ran as a "centrist" merely to appeal to a broader range of people (and this was his reasoning for doing it, you're right), he certainly didn't stand by the principles he espoused when he was first elected in '92; all he did was repackage himself after the health care debacle (which he handled poorly) in order to get re-elected. Once re-elected, Clinton became the embodiment of a corporate water carrier, something at which his wife is quite skilled, also. I'll say this for the Clintons: they know which side their bread is buttered on.
If you really believe Mrs. Clinton is "doing something right" to account for her "double-digit leads" in the polls, you haven't been paying attention. Often, the polling questions don't allow respondants to name the full range of candidate choices. And just because she's "ahead" doesn't mean she's doing anything but getting a lot of corporate money (and the media attention that goes with it...as the media is also totally corporate, bought and paid).
Finally, there's nothing wrong with being a Progressive. At least we stand for something--as opposed to parcing our principles into narrowly diced pieces in order to scrounge a vote. Lots of candidates would be progressive enough for me. She ain't one of 'em. And I've got news for you: she isn't going to score many Independents. They're naturally suspicious of the same old shit. They may not vote for a Republican this time out, but they may very well just not vote if they're given two lousy choices.
budda @ 97:
True. The US is about 25 years behind Europe in a lot of things. Read "The United States of Europe" bu T.R. Reid sometime. What an eye opener about our smug myopia in this country.
I have so little faith any universal healthcare will pass into law. Its just way too expensive, look at Medical and medicaire.
Volum @ 52:
Ozymandias @ 87:
Kucinich the front runner? Some cannabis being smoked on this thread....
Damn straight! :-)
Blueberry Haze and Organic Bubba Kush. Mmmmm, California herb is as good or better that what you find in Amsterdam and Canada.
"Kucinich is the front runner" is a meme started at #6 to contrast and challenge the equally reality based meme that "Kucinich is unelectable."
erick @ 30:
I don't hate Bill Clinton. Its just that Im a progressive liberal and I want a President that is going to break the grip tht Corporations have on my country. As noted before, Bill Clinton brought the America people NAFTA, "welfare reform", did nothing about Rwanda, Don't ask Don't tell, Telecomm Act of 1996 etc...
Hillary may be better than the Republicans, but not by much.
The Clintons will not bring change to America, only more of the same!
All you have to do is read these comments to understand who won tonight's debate. Andrew Sullivan is having a regular bitchy hissy fit about tonight's debate.
Me; I am a liberal jewish democrat chicagoan. And I'm going to vote for Ron Paul.
equilibrio @ 104:
Damn straight! :-)
Blueberry Haze and Organic Bubba Kush. Mmmmm, California herb is as good or better that what you find in Amsterdam and Canada.
"Kucinich is the front runner" is a meme started at #6 to contrast and challenge the equally reality based meme that "Kucinich is unelectable."
It IS damn good! The only thing I miss about CA is the sweet sweet herb!
Out here in NE there ain't shit.
snitramc @ 107:
You'd better read up on what Libertarianism is before jumping o that boat.
It's not pretty. And it's farther right than GW.
Give me a break. With the exception of tax cuts for the rich, abortion rights, and family leave, the Clintons and GW Bush represent EXACTLY the same policies:
- free trade
- open borders
- outsourcing and insourcing
- expanded H1B visas
- corporate de-regulation
- corporate welfare
- increased defense spending
- interventionist foreign policy
- unequivocal support for Israel
- opposition to the Kyoto Protocol
- zero increases in CAFE standards
- cuts to welfare and other social programs
- opposition to single payer healthcare
- expansion of the police industrial complex, including harsh drug laws
- bans on gay marriage
- mixing of government and religion
C & L,
what the media wishes we would focus on, the shallowest part of the democratic party.
....this is just a snake oil sideshow to the real task at hand.
Obama and Clinton will bend to whatever the day holds. If it is crap ... then they will deliver crap, if it is gold...then they will be all we can hope for from a position of power.
However, the state of the country, is still suspect ideologically and intellectually. What we need at this stage is a leader, not a reflector.
Mike @ 110:
Yup, that about covers it.
and the beat goes on, here we have the two front runners basically feeding on their own utilizing the right wing talking points to do so. The republicans have nothing, they don't have a viable candidate, they don't have a substantive platform of any kind, and they are coming off eight years of the worst presidency this country has ever seen. so what's their plan, throw some chum in the water and watch the dem front runners feed on one another. the dems will win the election, i don't think there is any doubt about that. but what damage are they causing to one another in the interim. it will be up to all of us to get behind the dem candidate and support so that there is no question of the win. it must be a landslide. that would add to the GW legacy of failure. We need to ensure that that candidate is not still following the losing course set out by Bush. We need to ensure that our candidate is strong enough to rip them all apart in debate. we need to ensure that our candidate will end this war IMMEDIATELY AND BRING ALL OF THE TROOPS HOME. We need to ensure that our candidate will reinstate the United States as a country of prominence and DECENCY. Sounds to me like we need to be getting behind Kucinich, the straight talker and our favorite candidate.
Give all the candidates a button on there desks, to push for talking.
Give them all the same amount of time; if finished, microphone stops.
That'll make people listen to Kucinich.
Cas @ 114:
I seem to remember debates were like that when I was younger, each candidate got their time and then on to the next.
That went the way of the Fairness Doctrine. Right about the same time if memory serves.
Josh @ 96:
hillerys going to kick bills ass into a sewer if she wins the shi er whitehouse!
public financing of campaigns, please
bill clinton wont have any time to shill for shillery ,he,ll be out golfing with his best buddy POPPY BUSH!
chris @ 23:
People respected Bill Clinton because not only did the nation do fairly well under him (oh, the days of the surplus) but he also made an attempt to represent the entire nation instead of neo-liberals (like many of those who frequent these forums).
Hillary is similar in that she knows what it'll take to bring the nation together and is going to work towards that, instead of appeasing only a minority of very-left individuals. She is also very familiar with the job and how government works, whereas individuals like Barack are all bluster and rhetoric. I like Barack, in general, but were he to become President I think he would be shocked to discover that he can't make sweeping, unilateral, radical changes like a dictator would. Hillary, on the other hand, lives in the real world.
It's easy to paint Hillary as a soulless corporate schill who would invade Iran and so on and so forth if you only see the world in binary terms. Unfortunately, simplistic idealism (something Barack is all about when he goes on and on about how he's going to turn America into Eden within four years) isn't what the nation needs right now.
And I don't feel all that much pity for Hillary haters who selfishly want only their desires met.
mark @ 9:
I so hear you!! Only look at her face already when she gets some criticism!..Geez!
I' m all for having a woman in the white house, but WTF!
RobertD @ 100:
Being stubborn isn't a virtue. I tend to be centrist in many ways, and it's not because I am slicing and dicing my views or because I am not passionate about what I do believe in. And there are millions of Americans who are easygoing and open-minded enough that they tend to avoid extremist positions.
I am tired of the melodrama, the mindless invocations of Orwell, ad infinitum. The real world is more complex than the one-dimensional characters people like to paint of the current candidates.
equilibrio @ 104:
Damn straight! :-)
Blueberry Haze and Organic Bubba Kush. Mmmmm, California herb is as good or better that what you find in Amsterdam and Canada.
"Kucinich is the front runner" is a meme started at #6 to contrast and challenge the equally reality based meme that "Kucinich is unelectable."
Sir, have you experienced good Canadian bud? Because I assure you that we have some fine-ass weed here. Everything else I've tried doesn't even compare.
And yes, I feel comfortable hijacking this thread to argue about marijuana!
organmeat @ 99:
You do realize that these are all talking-points too, right? A vilified, demonized version of Hillary has been painted and far too many hippies ate it right up. If you live in a world where all lobby groups are evil, all corporations are evil, that true dimplomacy and negotiations instead of sweeping partisan changes is/are evil... well, I guess we're at an impasse.
Hillary will be like Bill; a new democrat...which is so conservative they might as well be in the GOP. Mandated health care? People are already broke with oil out of control and the ripple effect it has on basic necessities. This is a handout to the insurance companies who are getting a return on their investment. The only one up their without their head up their ass is Kucinich. His points are music to my ears: get out of Iraq NOW, single party payor for healthcare, and redistributing the 80% of the country's wealth that is controlled by the top 2% of the population. The only problem is what has always been the problem with the dems; the intellectuals never win....Clinton will be more of the same old crap that you would expect from any dynasty. She is bought out like any republican...
Wolf Blitzer is a living example of the "Peter Principle". Wolfie was obviously over his head trying moderate this debate. You might say Wolfie got himself caught up in a 'Situation'.
The way they set up these debates is so annoying. Put the front runners on the very end and let some true discourse take place. These debates are worse than soap operas.
Boo on the debates.
Boo on the pundits.
Boo on Katie Couric.
Boo on all Republicans, (except that sassy Ron Paul...)
Yea future Democratic nominee, whoever they may be!!!!!!!
In case anyone’s forgotten, may I remind everyone that Fox News’ Rupert Murdoch supported Hillary Clinton? I don’t understand how any true Democrat could vote for her! Are Americans truly that uninformed??
Imagine how it will be to have a President who gets it right the first time. Now, support that guy regardless of who Wolf Blitzer or Tim Russert or the MSM in general tells you is winning material. Now, grow a spine and put it to use. That's how democracy is supposed to work.
Sinto @ 12:
ENOUGH SHE IS NOT BILL
Symes @ 109:
You could also say it's more left than Hillary Clinton too. You'd be surprised how many people actually identify more with libertarians than they do republicans or dems...
I was out of the country during most of the Gore vs. Bush campaign, but weren't most of the lefties saying pretty much the same thing about Gore that they're now saying about HRC? And that they were going to vote for Nader because that would really shake things up and sweep in a new era of progressive politics?
How did that work out?
Carakav @ 40:
Bingo. Think she'll roll back the presidential powers CheneyBush have wrought? Uh, uh.
That was a clear message to the defense industry that she's a team player.
I heard Rupret Murdoch himself state that he was supporting Hillary Clinton and Donating to her campaign on CNN.
If you don't know who he is, let's just say he is DEFINITELY not one to be expected to assist a so-called 'left-leaning-liberal'.
He owns, amoung other things, FOX NEWS.
Something stinks. And it ain't Monica Lewinski's underwear.
It's Hillary's.
Who knows, maybe those two swap undies.... ;)
BTW, i am not a repug/neo-con.
I'm barely a Democrat any more.
Those two groups are more than bedfellows.
They have children and a beachhouse together.
Anybody Murdoch supports gets a thumbs down right out of the gate.
That guy is a fascist asshat.
Hillary is a stealth candidate. If elected, she will turn out to be a DINO. Hillary's two biggest campaign contributors are the defense industry and the pharmaceutical industry. Hillary is not the progressive droid we are looking for.
I was at this debate and it was the most disgusting media event, you ever want to wittiness.
The Obama fans outnumbered the Hillary fans by about 20 to 1 and we had the CNN as well as all the media there all upset as we taunted them about the next days headlines and how they were going to explain the upset in supporters.
After about two hours of this, all of a sudden a bus with about 50 or however many a bus could hold, with people they went and picked up and gave Clinton signs came pouring out
The very sad thing about this display is that they still could not outnumber the supporters for Obama. We still had about 10 to 1 and completely drowned them out.
After the debate as all could see the CNN gang, gathered around and spewed all this shit about how great this woman was and how she was not hurt at all from the ass kicking she has gotten and will continue to get because all this made up support is just that.
It is clear that they can team up all over the media, all they like, it is evident that the supporters of not just the Obama camp, but all of them will not be moved by the fake status they have given her.
If the woman is that good, why the hell do they have to go through all this Bush shit? It will be interesting to see the media coverage tomorrow and just how they will show off the Clinton fans they purchased
mrogi @ 136:
Uh-she's already a DINO. You lose again. And if she wins, we all lose.
Experience is the ke to get anything done as president. And Hillary is the best candidate for that. Obame will be great 8 years from now.
bread and debates, err circuses. Kucinich needs to make a power move by boycotting these joke debates (not to mention the whole joke super-early campaign season) and insist on terms for a real debate.
Hype-Jersey @ 63:
are you freaking joking? You think 20% of the country makes over 75,000???? you are the one that is smoking. Here are the REAL numbers, from the IRS (they kinda do this stuff for a living
Gross Income Americans
% of Population
$1 - $50,000 92,594,960 71.185%
$50,000 - $75,000 17,396,916 13.374%
$75,000 - $100,000 9,247,839 7.110%
$100,000 - $200,000 8,422,603 6.475%
now, the question is where you got your stupid bs numbers.
I was most dissapointed in the post debate coverage where CNN decided to employ 2 Clinton staff operatives! and a Republican to beat up on Obama. This passes for journalism? The further along we get, the sadder I am to see this race twisted by the media. Obama represents decency and honesty - fairness and equality. His answer on driver's license was reasoned and just... but the media will turn it into a "______"
At the end of hte day, any idiot on this board that says he'd rather vote for a republican instead of any democrat, simply has no idea what is at stake in the world. I hope you volunteer for WWIII when the wingnut rightwinger decides to continue along the GWB path
I'm gonna go smoke now to feel better about our sad future. Vote Obama!!!
Biden and Dodd have experience, knowledge, and guts. They continually appeal to me as people who can lead our country.
Your income level has less to do with whether you vote Republican or Democrat; and more to do with whether you keep your ass in school and get an education.
Who cares? What does a health plan have to do with the presidency in a year?
They are both Senators, if they want to show us their health care plan PASS ONE IN THE SENATE! If Hillary is so helpless she can't get on board with others in the Senate to pass SOME sort of plan after all these years, how the hell does she expect to govern the free world? It's like she's running on her career of FAILING TO LEAD on this issue over and over.
Ron Wyden (D-OR), has a plan NOW, that will work NOW, and insure EVERYONE, at NO further cost (costs are offset in part by elimination of government waste and paperwork). It isn't perfect -- insurance companies are still involved, of course -- but it goes a LONG way. Plus the Republicans are getting on board with it; this stands a real chance of passing IF people start clamoring for it with their Senators and Reps.
So please, read what others are saying and check it out, ignore these "presidential" windbags, and let's just fix it NOW already. Most of us agree this is a step in the right direction at the least -- we need to make sure that congress TAKES THAT STEP. They'll only do it if you make hear you.
Detailed PDF about the "Healthy Americans Act" here (the actual bill as a PDF here).
Good Morning, a few things...
1. Publically Funded Elections- www.just6dollars.org
2. Return the League of Women Voters back in charge of debate
3. Go out this morning and talk to people about what you believe/value.
4. Do not fall into the Right Wing Frame of issues!-
http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/thinkingpoints/
Respectfully, and fully....
Ohio Proud!
Obama hits jackpot in Nevada debate. Clinton continues to lose her chips.
In tonight's debate Hillary said Obama was proposing a trillion dollar tax increase on the middle class to fund social security. Barack quickly shot back telling Hillary that his possible solution to keeping social security solvent by raising the current cap would only affect taxpayers making over $97,000 a year which was hardly the middle class. Clinton's reaction was that of a deer in headlights. Look for Obama's poll numbers to continue to rise in the days to come. Obama is now in a three quarter court press on Hill and she looks as though she's having trouble getting the ball up the court. This one's going down to the last shot.
Steve Everett
http://www.JustAThoughtThatsAll.com
"Hence, likewise, they will avoid the necessity of those overgrown military establishments, which, under any form of government, are inauspicious to liberty, and which are to be regarded as particularly hostile to Republican Liberty." -- George Washington farewell address September 17th, 1796.
Whine,whine. Too all you Hillary haters, what has been good for you the last 6 1/2 yrs? Keep bitching and you'll get another Repug in there. As of this morning, a CNN poll (over 129,000 annswering) only 31% watched the debate. So that means the duh! Joe-six pack crowd were working on their truck in the front yard while it was going on. Remember, these people vote with nothing in their pockets, any knowledge in their heads and watch FOX news. Keep up your bitching and hatred, I'll be looking out for my children and grand-children and vote Democratic, no matter who.
don myers @ 142:
Agree 200%. Biden and Dodd are sane, relevant and APPROPRIATE. They are REAL.
But no. Instead the MSM gives face to these two lame marionettes Clinton and Obama duking it out as we mewl in desperation as only Murdoch would have it. Fucking unreal.
Just kill me.
Fedup: Clinton IS a repug. Children and grandchildren? That's a doublethink repug pap phrase that really means "fuck your children and grandchildren". And you're a zombie, albeit a weak one.
swarmofkillermonkeys @ 144:
Actually, Hillary Clinton has a fairly impressive resumé. Barack can only offer promises to fix the economy, solve the crises in the Middle East, cure cancer, and make sure that there are no monsters under childrens' beds. You'll notice that Clinton offers very specific examples of what she has done, and what she will do. Online, melodramatic left-wingers pretend she is a Republican robot because they have no originality in their complaints, but if they took the time to look up her plans they would find some very clear ideas being presented. Nonetheless, everything I am saying is useless because it seems that 90% of the population forms opinions based on osmosis - they repeat something vague they think they heard, perhaps from a friend or around the table at dinner.
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