NPR Offers Program "Is Waterboarding Torture?"
By Nicole Belle Wednesday Nov 14, 2007 3:02pmLord, save us from the idiots that are still unsure about this. I have an idea: how about any person that hasn't yet figured this out line up to experience it? I'm pretty sure once you've got up close and personal with a near-drowning, it won't be too hard to come down one way or the other on the issue.
A recent segment on WNYC, New York's flagship National Public Radio (NPR) station, underscored not only the level to which public broadcasting standards have degraded during the Bush years, increasingly adopting the same intellectually dishonest frames and "fair and balanced" debate as those aired on commercial media networks, but also how, simultaneously, public broadcasting deceptively benefits from, and is protected by, its vaunted and entrenched reputation for providing quality information.
WNYC's The Brian Lehrer Show hosted the segment "Is Waterboarding Torture?" preceding Judge Michael Mukasey's controversial confirmation for U.S. Attorney General. On its face, of course, this frame is straight out of the worst of network news and commercial talk radio.
"Lots of questions abound. Just what is waterboarding? Does it work? Is it torture? And waterboarding figures heavily in today's news....Do you agree that there are degrees of waterboarding? And so, you know, again in Mukasey's defense, he may not know to what degree this technique is actually used, how close to drowning somebody in the drowning experience, in actually filling their lungs with water, as our previous guest was describing, they actually go. Which also makes it difficult for him to take a position on whether the administration is using a torture technique." -- host Brian Lehrer
You know, I expect this kind of stuff from the Fox Networks, but man, how can you not grieve for NPR?
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think of it this way: it's designed to make you so uncomfortable that you give in and talk... you're not going to do that with something that's not really painful are you?
If you want real news, avoid NPR and watch Democracy Now instead.
Is this torture?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skU-jBFzXl0
I've been grieving for this country for the past 7 years. Now I'll add NPR to the list.
Pa-thet-ic.
ysbaddaden @ 3:
I'd have to say YES. Gawd that reminds me of watching tv as a kid.
R.I.P. ... Brian
Step 1: Take one person who denies Waterboarding is torture
Step 2: Waterboard them
Step 3: Ask them if waterboarding is torture
Step 4:If they deny it, go back to Step 2. Otherwise go to Step 5
Step 5: Point proven?
NPR is now nothing more than a tool of the underwriters protecting their interests and framing public opinion for their interests.
It could easily be called National Pentagon Radio OR National Pharmaceutical Radio
Is murder killing? Our panel of experts debate this quaint relic of Old Testament law and sheds new light on an increasingly popular government tool in the "War on Terror". Stay tuned.
Mr. Pelicano @ 9:
It all depends on who's doing the murdering. Silly question!
"Degrees of Waterboarding."
Wow. I can see it now. Like a Beach Boys meets Death Angel album cover.
Yes, but we don't change hearts and minds by calling them "stupid".
Quietpaths @ 12:
I am sick and tired of that PC garbage. It IS stupid. They are BEING stupid. They are TALKING stupidly and ACTING stupidly. I will continue to call them out on it and I will not use gentle and soft language. Waterboarding IS TORTURE and to even discuss it as being anything else is STUPID!!!
Mr. Pelicano @ 9:
There was once a murder case, and the guy I shit you not, used the following as an excuse: "Your honor, I killed my wife but just a little"
Pete Bogs @ 1:
Yes, apparently you can. According to some WWII interrogators who, a couple of weeks ago, made a statement that they got a lot more info out of prisoners by playing cards with them than by torturing them.
I CANNOT fucking believe this is even being debated. Another dumb-ass White House talking point designed to muddy the argument. When all else fails, simply challenge the nature of the situation, add a question mark to make it look like you're having a debate, and watch the media lapdogs fall for it time and fucking time again.
And this is for an Administration that could fuck up a cup of coffee. Where the hell were they during Clinton? I can just picture the news stories: "Is oral sex sexual relations?" Would've saved the tax payers a fortune.
I stopped contributing to NPR and my local MPR a long time ago, when I realized that they were just as conservative and commercial as any other media. Heck, one of their most popular programs is "Marketplace," which is basically an upper-income circle jerk.
Mr. Pelicano @ 9:
No kidding. Don't be surprised to see this as a real topic on Fux News.
is a form of torture torture??? great question
I think the decline of NPR began before the Bush administration. Between what passes for commentary (e.g., Marketplace editorials) and the options podcasts allow, I almost never listen to national-level NPR news shows anymore. PRI, BBC, and CBC are almost always better (i.e., less-biased) news sources, and what value still remains I can listen to on my iPod on the way home from work.
Of course, it's something of a positive-feedback loop - as their quality declines, they loose listeners who care, pushing them further towards corporate sponsorship.
How about we ask the candidates for '08 to formally legislate the Fairness Doctrine in their first month in office?
That's like saying, "how much of my c*ck do I put in before it's
considered f*cking?
it's all slip, slidin away.
StirFry @ 18:
Is intoxication drunkenness?
Well, what were we expecting? A significant portion is trying to figure out whether or not evolution is "just a theory" so I assume complex subjects such as torture, may still be open for discussion... you know. America seems to be --emotionally at least-- where the rest of the industrialized world was over half a century ago. I mean, we still have the death penalty kicking around, and up to recently the national sport of large portions of the Southern States in this country was "let's hang the black guy from the tree." In fact, we just invaded a country and killed scores of innocent civilians because we just felt like it. So, we have a looong way to go before we master XX century-level human rights or sensitivity, let alone XXI... which we may start to tackle some time around 2120.
Anyhow, I thought that this country was founded on "Christian Principles." You mean to tell me is another empty bullshit rhetoric go-to talking point by the right? I am shocked! Shocked!
You know when EVERYBODY will agree that waterboarding is torture?
The minute it's performed on a captured American.
What goes around, comes around.
As ye sow so shall ye reap.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
And so on and so forth.
Certainly there are different degrees of Water Boarding just as in different degrees of a Massacre.With water Boarding its how much water is used to simulate drowning and in a Massacre like 'Mai Lai' its how many times the Vietnamese children are shot.
Anyone in favor of waterboarding should be waterboarded.
Strap every neoconservative pro-war cheerleader down and waterboard them.
And THEN see if they are still in favor of waterboarding. I have no love for terrorists or Bin Laden but just use truth serum instead.
I thought it was just me. I always thought of NPR as progressive/moderate. But more and more they piss me off. A few of the shows are OK, but their staff new sucks and they have an agreement w/ fox for feeds. Also their idea of fair and balanced is ridiculous. They had the founder of the growth club on, introduced him as a investment expert. The swine railed on freemarkets and flat tax for a half hour with no counterpoint or challenge. Next day WSJ editorial page editor. same thing. F*&^ them.
Fanon @ 13:
IT IS STUPID!! THEY ARE STUPID MORONS!!
again I'd like to draw your attention to the article
"Good Indications You Are Being Tortured" for US Attorney General Michael Mukasey
NPR has nothing to do with the Brian Lehrer show. WNYC and NPR are not one and the same. Get a clue people.
Brian Lehrer is a schmucky putz of the first order.
With friends like these...
Nice catch Nicole!
"Torture in the name of the free, more misery for you and me
They ship ‘em out so we can’t see the way they bring ‘em to their knees..."
--Wackiavelli
phantom Says: If you want real news, avoid NPR and watch Democracy Now instead.
exactly
Ramen, Albatross.
I stopped listening to NPR regularly 09/12/01. Wolf in sheep's clothing water carriers IMHO. WATER CARRIERS! Give me Pacifica and the internets!
Sinto @ 27:
If you start dosing neo-cons with truth serum prepare yourself for the ugly realization that most of them; hated their parents, don't really believe in God, lust after little children, cheat on their taxes and run away screaming at the sound of gunfire.
Are you kidding? I haven't listened to NPR in ages. Every time I tune in they have some teenager earnestly reading her Poem of the Year or crap like this. Either way, I nearly drive off the road from being put to sleep or in the latter case, sheer irritation.
Btw, anybody hear about that guy that was tasered by the Royal Mounties and died? Yet another person that cops preferred to simply electrocute rather than negotiate or at the very least, subdue him by force of numbers. Shame! Check CNN.com for the video and story, if interested (yeah, I know: yet another winner of a news outlet, nonetheless the video is there and you can judge for yourself).
It's so simple. Which interrogation techniques would you approve of for use on your son or daughter if he or she was in enemy hands? For me, if my captive daughter was not given a soft enough pillow to sleep on at night, I would define that as torture. If she was not allowed to have cream with her coffee, I would define that as torture. If we treated our enemy combatants like human beings, we would soon have fewer enemy combatants.
They think if they keep asking the question people will think it's still a question.
With all the "Your emboldening the enemy talk", What will these idiots say when Al-Queida waterboards some captive on video?
I didn't hear this segment (will listen on line tonight) but I have been listening to Brian Lehrer over the past 3 years, and he is consistently a smart, decent person. Is he arguing the other side here? What is the context? This just doesn't sound like him. I will reserve judgement until I hear the whole segment.
Debating this shows that obl has won and changed our country.
Also, freedom taken away is another victory for obl.
Our government has disgraced the honor of those who died for our freedom.
NPRCheck
He's been all over them. Well worth more support in readership.
I listen to NPR daily. Its to the point now where I feel like I did about 8 years ago when I got tired of yelling at the TV and turned it off.
If it is produced in the US, and presented to US audiences on the air or cable, and presented as factual information, don't believe a word of it.
It is that simple.
Don't be so surprised, I am only surprised it took this long to get all the media under control. Herr Goebells was much more efficient when he did it.
goatsage @ 35:
You forgot one; self-loathing closet cases.
Layne @ 16:
From a biology perspective, it isn't sex unless there is conception...
I was debating this point in another message board the other day and guess who were the strongest advocates of waterboarding? The Christians.. I said, oh there goes the flock again all "peace" and "love" and "turn the other cheek". Here's the agnostic reminding the faithful about their new testament. This issue really shows everybody's true colors like no other.
The kids at Somethingawful left a handy guide on torture for Mukasy (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/mukasey-torture-info.php) - sort of a tricks and tips.
bilhelm-X @ 46:
Who WOULD Jesus torture?
What is it about some people that they don't mind be cruel to other human beings? I just don't understand.
I can't bring myself to be cruel to any living thing so I wouldn't do well if I were assigned to the interrogation dept.
We're LIVING 1984... and boy I'd rather be reading the book.
Short answer? Yes.
I'm amazed we have enough functional idiots around to keep us from moving on from this point. Wait, no I'm not.
this country needs an intervention
http://www.couragecampaign.org/page/s/moveon this is off topic,but it's for all of us in Calif...this is to censure DiFi......please take the time to read it.thank you
Stay tuned, next up Terry Gross says "um" alot and asks "Is waterboarding an [um..] aphrodisiac?"
NPR = Nice Polite Republicans
It’s only a matter of time before an ignorant wingnut accidentally drowns a friend while playing this new waterboarding game. I’m surprised it hasn’t already happened.
goatsage @ 49:
Oh, no. Those ain't no Christians Jesus, history's best known torture victim, would recognise.
NPR is more pernicious (an NPR word) than Fox or CNN or the other corporate networks. With Fox and the others we know we're getting lies and propaganda - whatever's good for bidniss - and we give them the scorn they deserve. But NPR still has a reputation for respectability, with the bow ties and the pinched-nose voices and the pervasive aura of Ambien. NPR is as enthusiastic a booster of Bush and the torture agenda as every other media outlet. After all, the giant corporations behind the neocon plot pay NPR's bills. Listen to Talk of the Nation. The blase let's-examine-both-sides conversations about torture and maimed veterans and dead Iraqis and trashing the Constitution are chilling.
Really get efficient. Have the admin insiders waterboarded with questions of their bosses' crimes. The phrase is We don't torture [our own].
We are a cruel society - our mythology of rugged individualism is all about people running over other people to get something (land, money, power.)
The rest of the Western, technologically advanced nations got rid of the death penalty years ago. We still argue whether or not it's cruel for the state to murder someone as punishment. The same countries have social safety nets, fpaid amily leave, universal health care, universal child care, much more vacation time than our paltry two weeks a year, if you want it education is free or nearly so. None of these things makes these countries perfect, but after 2,000 years of warfare Europe seems to have become a kinder society. I only hope we don't have to wait another 1750 years for it to happen here. But I don't hold out much hope for a society that can't tell the difference between science and religion.
Hi, this is Nena Toke-in-bird, next up, is George W. Bush the greatest or only the second greatest president in history? we'll discuss this after this brief underwriting announcement from Archer Daniels Midland...
When asked how do you know, while water boarding, if the suspect is telling the truth or not Trudy said, well if he is still breathing after we have dunked him he is lying.
hey, you should of heard juan williams toting the latest research from Pew
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16281886
Then of course there is the article about ms Obama saying if blacks don't support obama or the democrats, they don't get it..
I often switch off NPR; it has idiots working within it. Factiods learned from NPR include 1) that we can just place a darkened lens in space between the earth and sun and that will eliminate global climate change (I'm not making this up unfortunately); 2) people need to be entertained by news; 3) the French want to "fix their system" by removing benefits to railroad workers (as the NPR reporter breathlessly described her listening to a "Union Head" being attacked on a call-in show in Paris). She was listening from home because, horrors, her nanny did not arrive in her home because of the transit strike (!).
NPR is a joke, really just a joke, or perhaps more accurately a terrible pathetic joke.
Next on NPR, "Is crucification really torture?". "We'll discuss this with our panel of Christians".
O. K. this is insanity !! Are his lungs a quarter full, half full, three quarters full or completely full. Then you needn't worry, he's dead and that's just murder. Of course, it's torture, even if the lungs are only a little filled with water. I know how it feels to nearly drown. and I didn't even have my lungs filled with water, just no bottom when I put my feet down. To know that someone controls whether you live or die in such circumstances is torture no matter how much or how little water gets in the lungs. It's insanity and anyone who tries to justify it, has absolutely no compassion for anyone, is completely without heart or care for anyone but themselves.
the repugs have done exactly what they wwanted to do to NPR.
NPR's day has come and gone a long time ago. When they stupidly aired Mumia Jamal's broadcasts from inside prison I gave up on them. The guy is a confessed cop-killer yet they gave him a forum as if he was a Burmese freedom fighter locked up in his house. They then turned around and defended so many Bush administration screw-ups, and glossed over so many more that I knew whose side they were really on. Finally, this free, non-commercial NPR Public Broadcasting outlet ends each newscast with a series of thank you's (that amount to commercials, by the way), to Archer Daniels Midland, Kellogg Brown and Root, and God knows how many other corporate sponsors. Do you HONESTLY think NPR will EVER report on theses corporate rapists in a serious manner? For all their "Mumia broadcasts" and leftish posturing, they are nothing but toadies to the Corporate/Political Power Machine that is running this world. "F"'em.
oh god Brian Lehrer,, just a shameful human being.. he should go do PR for the AEI,, oh wait he sort of does..
How may times was the Prince of Darkness on that show?
Anyone see him fill in for Charlie Rose and interview Noam Chomsky ??
Astoundingly poor work..
"and anyone who tries to justify it, has absolutely no compassion for anyone, is completely without heart or care for anyone but themselves." Sarah Markulin @68
Sounds like your average neo-con to me.
Breaking News! Dept of Homeland Security and the CIA have, due to widespread controversy, replaced Waterboarding with the "Witch Test". If the subject, after having been shackled and thrown into the Atlantic Ocean, floats, then he is guilty. If he drowns, he is innocent.
NPR should just stick to their cooking shows:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UwDePVJHX4M
I've listened to NPR in NYC for 30 years. The change came right around 9-11 of course, just after. Sudden but subtle. The same thing happened to one of my favorite TV shows of 30 years, right around that time - CBS Sunday Morning. When Ben Stein became a contributor and spewed his hateful Fox News vomitus, I knew it was all over at the house that Charles Kurault built.
Sometimes, one side is right, or more correct than the other. Please tell the media.
Weaseldog @ 46:
Haha touche. But you know those Red Staters. Conception begins the moment you think about having sex. (Thanks, Colbert). :-p
Albatross @ 17:
Me too. I dropped them at the beginning of this year because they have become extremely bias. Someone should look into who sponsors them. They hide behind the "public" phrase in their title. It's not true they are just as bad as the general media. Play close attention to the way they talk about Presidential candidates. You'll see how real bias they are. They hardly mentioned anything about the Impeachment articles introduced by Dennis Kucinich. Why do you think that is.
I say to everyone CANCEL YOUR SUBSCRIPTION TO NPR YOU MIGHT AS WELL BE SENDING MONEY TO ABC.
tree @ 41:
Thank you. I listen to NPR alot and I love it. I live in an extremely conservative area and there is NOT ONE PROGRESSIVE TALK SHOW ON THE AM RADIO HERE. NPR is such a welcome relief I can't even tell you.
I will also reserve judgement until I hear the segment.
I personally think this reflects more about the state of American Journalism more than NPR itself. Now, i've been offended by NPR in the past for Fresh Air's Pro-Israel cheerleading and Neil Conan's Conservative bent, Mara Liasson and the other NPR/FOX news contributors and the wretched stories about a single green chested mango hummingbird who flew from mexico to ohio. JESUS CHRIST THATS a dumb story.
Anyway, I appreciate NPR for the most part, and Diane Rheam (sp) tore apart a guy who said that waterboarding wasn't torture, so it depends on the journalist, not the entire station.
I think this is the failure of any sort of public official standing up and saying that, yes, we've prosecuted waterboarding as torture in the past in the united states, why the eff are you debating it now. Fix the american psyche
MarcyJ @ 78:
..........................................................................................
It's an Eminence Front
It's a put-on
MarcyJ @ 78:
As a progressive oasis in a conservative desert, they're okay, but you should heard them back when.
I am shocked you are surprised NPR would put on such a program. While they have their moments, I think you would be hard-pressed to prove NPR is really a news outlet that questions the status quo. To call NPR progressive is hilarious. Sure, they seem progressive compared to all the wacky right-wing extremists infesting the airwaves....but c'mon. Flash back to any election....or even look at the coverage of this up-coming election. No teeth to the commentary, asking all the tired questions we already know the answers to if we follow news....I mean, if we are gonna get into the nitty-gritty, why is NPR not pointing out Obama's harping on right-wing lies about social security, Guiliani's cross-dressing, or Clinton's constant obfuscation?
I wanna love NPR, but it is just more of the same, but without the guts to take a real stand on anything.
yeah, just too add, this is the second segment they did in 2 weeks. if any of you listened to eye on the media you would have heard them having 2 guests on, one who basically asked what part of water boarding is simulated drowning, it's the gerund, drowning is drowning, how can you simulate the action when you are doing the action? (paraphrasing)
but no, I guess no one here listened to that bit,,
npr is a network, democracy now is an hour long show. both give you news you don't here anywhere else but one just has more crap on it because it is hard to fill the time with great stuff all the time. don't bash the station over one loon, just don't listen to his program.
and if anyone has ever listened to wisconsin public radio knows, it's damn good, so actually listen to the whole thing and not just read the links
P.S. if anyone listened this afternoon to radio without boarders john nicholas was on. yeah, really republican lite.
And THIS is why I no longer support NPR.
I agree with # 2 phantom.
The only show left on NPR worth listening to is Amy Goodman's Democracy NOW. IF your local npr station doesn't carry this, listen to her show online. Then lobby them to broadcast a REAL news program.
I'm pretty sure the reason why this subject is still being discussed is to divert attention from the other worse crimes BushCo has committed/is planning to commit. I don't know what they are, but I'm sure they're doing something f'ed up that we haven't discovered about yet.
raker @ 60:
Yeah, NPR shouldn't get a pass on this one. They're trying to intellectualize the hell out of this issue. I'm already concerned that people have heard the term "waterboarding" so much that some of them no longer have the appropriate gut-wrenching revulsion to it. Seems like NPR has received their "let's take the bite out of this issue" orders and are acting on them.
Mataha @ 85:
Democracy Now! is produced by Pacifica Network, not National Public Radio although some public stations will air NPR, PRI and Pacifica programming.
BTW if you want to hear a Really good News interview/discussion program, Listen to RadioWest with Doug Fabrezio (KUER - UTAH, and on satellite radio). He is one of the most balanced and interesting interviewers I think I've ever heard. Occasionally he has a mormon focused story, that is too heavy on religion (being broadcast in utah and all) but otherwise one of the best radio shows out there, describing the stories in a depth you'll only find on a show like NOW or Democracy Now.
the cons think Jack Bauer is real so they support all torture. god damn Pinochetian suburbanites
It seems like no one here even listened to the segment. Brian Lerehr is one of the best talk radio interviewers around and is not a pundit in any way. He works as an unbiased newsman and in such a "debate" he framed the issue as it is currently being framed, and playing a bit of devils advocate, then had on two guests which actually aanswered the question a resounding YES, WATERBOARDING IS TORTURE.
Unfortunately some of the callers seemed to be on another planet, talking as if this is a DEM v. REP debate but give Brian and WNYC a break. They are not NPR.
Brian Lerher is one of the best out there.
Oh for cryin out loud... Is Waterboarding torture??... Questions abound....Yea right.. And gassing 6 million jews and who really knows how many millions of other 'undesirables' in the 30's and 40's was just a big ol misunderstanding... Wasn't really genocide at all. That's just a misnomer....And Hitler loved his dog too... I got a question or two for all these mealy mouthed equivocating assholes who won't call a spade a spade when it's right before their eyes.... If I slam your thumb with a sledgehammer, are you going to need five congressional inquiries to determine if that really hurts or not??? And how many radioheads debating forever will it take to define just what pain is? Jesus H. Christ, even the people who are trained in this despicable 'technique' say it's an example of torture...
Waterboarding is a form of torture period! And the U.S. has no business practicing torture, any form of torture.
And we haven't even addressed the fact that torture doesn't work for gaining accurate intel.... And even the so-called experts in intel gathering admit that. What a crock, someone must have spiked NPR's watercoolers with kool-aid... They are losing their frikkin minds over there..............JD
Did anyone here listen to the segment?
The conclusion was that waterboarding is torture.
Someone else may have mentioned this upthread, I didn't read every comment before posting but I have to take issue with the comment:
"I have an idea: how about any person that hasn’t yet figured this out line up to experience it? I’m pretty sure once you’ve got up close and personal with a near-drowning, it won’t be too hard to come down one way or the other on the issue."
My problem? Waterboarding is NOT near-drowning, it is INDUCED and CONTROLLED drowning.
Furthermore, it is even torture under the Bush administration's torture-lite classifications, remember the infamous memo that said it isn't torture unless it causes pain on level with organ failure? Well, waterboarding INDUCES organ failure (the lungs).
SHAME SHAME SHAME on NPR!!! FACT: waterboarding IS torture. Period. This is not open to debate.
NPR lost me quite a while ago. For Pete's sake, Scott Simon was all gung-ho for invading Iraq-nam. Liberal my ASS!
I support Pacifica and Democracy Now!
Dude, who stole my country?
Fucking embarrassing to be an American these days.
...
Avatar@93;
Alright... point made.. I listened to the NPR thing.. The whole 30 minute segment just now. It's pretty clear the NPR host was merely providing a forum for this discussion without really taking a side, which was a bit irritating in that this act is so self evident as to what it is about...I.E. torture. But actually, just providing an forum for discussion is what consitututes unbiased journalism. Something networks like Fox for instance so miserably fail at. So I retract only the kool-aid snark regarding NPR the news organization, and apologize for that part of my original post.
In reading thru the thread and having my own thoughts and beliefs about the practice, I made a bad leap regarding NPR as a news outlet. And the thought that NPR was selling out was aggravating in the extreme for me. Torture is exactly that and the people being interviewed holds that waterboarding IS a form of torture. I was somewhat taken aback by the call in part which actually almost supported the Scarbourough comment that inferred a poll of average people wouldn't have that big an issue with it.. Seems to me the shame is more on the people who just buy into the practice rather than see it for what it is and what it will likely lead to for our own service members as prisoners...
Goddamnit, THAT'S why the Geneva accords are so important!
I also think Ms. Greenwald actually hit on the real deal in all this.. She spelled out what it's all really about... A desire to seek immunity for those Bush officials who championed and sanctioned this shit! And that green light probably goes right up to the top... I.E. the oval office and office of the V.P.... Yet more evidence that impeachment should be ON THE FUCKING TABLE!!!! I stand corrected regarding giving NPR specifically shit and thinking they were in fact now in favor of that form of torture. As for Murkasey??? I don't think he has the balls to do what really needs done about this sick shit. That's why he's a phony in my book. A real example of the mealy mouthed equivacating bastard I referred to in my original post.........JD
NPR has been a stinking dung heap since it took money from ADM "the supermarket to the world" years ago. Those sold out bastards must like sending their kids to private school too much to ever go back to actually being the public radio network they once were.
No question its torture. There really is no debate to be had. But is it effective? Is it required in order to protect American interests? Are we the only country that engages in such practices? Are our torture techniques as horrible or more so than techniques used by other countries? Do we not have the right to engage in the same practices our enemies engage in? Has America not always engaged in such methodologies during war time? Who are the people being waterboarded?
These questions are far more appropriate for intellectual discussion.
"It seems like no one here even listened to the segment. Brian Lehrer is one of the best talk radio interviewers around and is not a pundit in any way."
I don't THINK so!
Excuse me? I'm sorry, I did listen to the segment, and it was totally by luck, as I stopped listening to the Israel Lobby apologist Brian Lehrer in the run up to the invasion and occupation of Iraq (it can't really be called a war.)
Lehrer practices that phony school of journalism so called objectivity where you have to take "both" sides of a story even if one of them is obviously a ludicrous Republican party straw man.
There is no such thing as two sides to an "objective" discussion in this matter, there is only the truth: water boarding is forced drowning which is torture!
I guess, as the article says, some credit is due the host for bringing on the experts. I liked Olberman's answer to this question better. I believe he said, "duh, yes."
MullitOver @ 99:
Here's your answers.
No, it is not, as has been testified to by top intelligence officials.
No, it is in fact detrimental to US interests to be seen as a nation that uses torture.
No, we are not. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Sudan, Pakistan, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, North Korea and a host of other despotic dictatorships and 3rd world shit holes also utilize torture as a matter of course.
Not the kind of company you want to be using as your moral and legal yardstick I would think.
No, they are equally horrible. They are also war crimes as well as crimes against humanity as outlined in a number of our treaties.
See above.
They are illegal, so no.
On the QT, probably. As an approved tactic and sanctioned method, no.
Who knows, they haven't been charged, tried or convicted of anything. Most are probably innocent nobodies.
No, they are ways to obfuscate and attempt to give an air of legitimacy to a process that is morally bankrupt, illegal nationally and internationally and counterproductive to the missions that the practitioners are using them for.
Nice try.
Ok, so first of all, I live and work in NYC and also happen to be an avid listener of the Brian Lehrer show. Having listened to this WHOLE radio segment myself, I can safely say that the the quote of contention is taken so far out of context that it's making my head spin! For anyone unfamiliar with Brian Lehrer, he is in my opinion, one of the best morning show hosts currently on the air (especially when considering the options at 10 AM in NYC). Why? Well, that's pretty simple...he looks at the entire picture (imagine that), something most people on the right, and apparently the left, consistently fail to do .
The fact that he's even hosting a show on the topic should tell you something about the journalistic integrity of NPR and it's affiliates. Look, I'm about as liberal as they come...but this accusation against Mr. Lehrer, being some sort of right wing sympathizer, is both baseless and totally without merit. I would suggest to anyone still interested in this topic to head over to WNYC.com and listen to the broadcast in it's entirety.
There is no such thing as two sides to an “objective” discussion in this matter, there is only the truth: water boarding is forced drowning which is torture!
As for the above quote...sir, you're a jackass. There may not be two sides to the truth, but there are always two sides when dealing within our democracy. Open discussion, no matter how base the topic, is always beneficial and necessary to the growth and understanding of ourselves as a people...and a nation.
Self righteousness will get you nowhere (elected) these days.
Frank @ 103:
Not really, the only real discussion is whether it is illegal.
And it is.
To claim there is room for discussion and two sides to the debate over torture is like saying that there is merit in debating dousing indigents with lighter fluid and torching them.
There isn't.
That makes you the ass.
Frank @ 103:
And you sir, are a naive blockhead! What drivel about two sides when dealing with our democracy! Straight out of a simpletons public school civics primmer! Two sides is what the "good Germans" were telling each other as they walked the "others" into the cattle cars on their way to the concentration camps.
When are Americans going to wake up to the facts of what our government is doing in our name? Or don't you think that when push comes to shove and they drag out that old canard of the "ticking time bomb" they wont be waterboarding your ass too?
Right is right, and wrong is wrong or should I be saying it in Newspeak for you?
Torture is Double-plus un-good!
Symes @ 102:
I hope you are equally smug and self righteous after the next attack. You did prove my point however that the questions posed are more appropriate for intellectual discussion than the debate over whether waterboading is torture or not. Well done homeboy. I appreciate the support.
Top intelligence officals have also commented that it is hugely effective and has led to a large deal of information.
If you think those despotic countries are the only ones engaged in torture techniques you are very mistaken.
Please explain how it is detrimental to be seen as a country that uses torture techniques and how being perceived as a weak handed and weak willed country is beneficial.
Please describe how waterboarding is a violation of international treaty in the specific cases where it has been used.
Please describe how some notion of "legality" trumps the attempts to protect the citizens of America.
On the QT absolutely. Don't kid yourself. You know for sure military and Presidents didn't sanction it on the QT? Please explain.
Who knows? Most are probably innocent nobodies? Ah, so with admitted ignorance of who is being waterboarded and ignorance of the information they could provide, you still maintain there is nothing to be gained from this technique?
Again, thanks for proving my point about this being a far more appropriate method of discussion than going back and forth about something obvious.
Nice try? :) You're so cute.
MullitOver @ 106:
Condescension? You aren't looking for debate you are looking for a troll.
Your arguments are weak, and the debate has already been won by myself based on your response.
Provide the backing for your assertions, then MAYBE I MIGHT take the time to blow them out of the water again.
Symes @ 107:
Tell you what, let's make this easy for you.
You are baiting me to get me to waste my time running around looking for answers to YOUR questions. I already have provided answers.
Your turn.
You tell me why you are right on the questions you pose above, OK?
I will then prove you wrong.
Otherwise you are just trying to run me.
And I don't run for trolls.
Pete Bogs @ 1:
Just because you pee your pants when someone slaps you doesn't mean it works on normal human beings, let alone on someone with a healthy mind. I mean if it weren't for your father abusing you as a child, you would have turned up to be a perfectly normal person. Alas, you're miserable.
I have to get behind Frank, above, on this one. I didn't hear the particular show, but I've a regular Brian Lehrer listener for many years and one every single show he's done, he's tried to get the most intelligent people available and actually have them debate the topic in a non-heated way.
I imagine that if the show title was "Is Waterboarding Torture?," Brian probably had a Bush lackey and a human-rights lawyer as guests, and if the discussion was fair, the human-rights lawyer probably ripped Mr. GOP a new one. This is what used to be called "debating an issue on the merits," and it's a little sad to see that the commenters here are almost uniformly indignant to discover that public radio isn't the kind of "amen corner" for the left that Rush Limbaugh is for the right.
(Also, FYI:"The Brian Lehrer Show" is produced by radio station WNYC and, as far as I know, has no direct connection with NPR. WNYC is a public station and does broadcast many NPR programs--which may account for the confusion.)
Also, Eltiburon and Symes--How many minds have you guys changed with your sanctimonious smugness? How many people have you won over by rubbing their nose in your moral superiority?
James Gary @ 110:
Actually, a lot of the problem comes from the fact that there STILL is debate about what is torture and what isn't and whether it is OK to become a nation of war criminals because the bad guys are.
This debate has run it's course and is just being rehashed endlessly as though there were still merit in discussing it.
As though the crime of torture was a method that has moral and legal grounding.
That is where the anger and frustration is coming from.
James Gary @ 111:
There is no changing of minds left on this, either you are a compassionate human with a respect for law or you are an appologist or advocate of torture.
The mind changing time is past, all that is left is to ridicule and deride those too thick or base to understand the truth of the matter.
James Gary @ 111:
BTW -It's not moral superiority, it's an understanding of international law.
If you fell your nose is being rubbed, perhaps you need to read up on it.
I suggest starting with the Nuremberg Accords, then move on to the Geneva Conventions of 1949 article 3.
If you have any doubts about the legal status of our actions, go back over the Nuremberg trials transcripts and see what we executed a number of the Nazi criminals for. That should clear up the issue.
Here, something to think about:
1901: The US Army finds a major guilty of water-boarding an insurgent during the Philippine Insurrection and sentence him to 10 years hard labor for the crime.
October 10, 1943: The Axis Powers and their secret police organizations make widespread use of waterboarding throughout World War Two. The most gruesome example is known as the "Double Tenth Incident" In late September of 1943, six Japanese tankers were destroyed in Keppel Harbor in Singapore. The Japanese secret police (Kempeitai) decided that military and civilian prisoners in Changi Prison were responsible and on October 10 they take away 57 prisoners and torture 15 of them to death through waterboarding. The Japanese up the pain a notch, continuing questioning during the process and beating the prisoner. After the prisoner injests the water trying to answer, the Japanese jump on the prisoner's now-distended stomach.
In the post-war trial, 14 of the 21 Kempeitai involved were found guilty. Of those 14, eight were executed for their crime.
1947: A Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, is convicted by an Allied court of war crimes. Among the charges are that he waterboarded John Henry Burton, a US civilian. Asano is sentenced to 15 years hard labor.
1968: During the Vietnam War, the Washington Post runs a photo of a US soldier waterboarding a North Vietnamese POW near Da Nang. Within a month that soldier was court-martialed within one month and kicked out of the Army.
1975-1979: The Khmer Rouge make extensive use of waterboarding to torture their fellow Cambodian citizens en route to slaughtering over 2 million of them. The devices used and diagrams of the torture involved can still be seen at the former Tuol Sleng prison in Cambodia.
1980s: The military government of Chad, led by Hissene Habre, uses waterboarding to torture opponents of the regime. Habre was indicted in Belgium for torture.
"...either you are a compassionate human with a respect for law or you are an appologist or advocate of torture."
-James Gary
(Nice guy, little confused.)
"You're either with us...or against us."
-George Bush
(Worst president ever.)
Frank @ 116:
That is disingenuous.
Provide the third way in debating torture please, because legally it's an either or proposition.
Either you torture or you don't.
It's kind of like manslaughter that way, either you killed the person or you didn't.
There is not such thing as sort of tortured.
Symes @ 108:
Typical. Ad hom attacks and a lot of excuses instead of reasoned response. Ah well. C'est la vie. I was asking questions of you. I didn't realize I needed to answer my own questions. I was hoping your infinite wisdom might actually possess some answers. Or at the very least an intellecual response. You provided weak answers. I simply asked you to quantify and clarify. You seem like a smart person. I expected more. My bad homie. Next time I wont expect anything.
MullitOver @ 118:
Try again, you demand a response, I gave one.
I told you it was illegal and immoral.
You have provided nothing in return except that old cry of ad hominem.
Provide your thesis and I will respond, otherwise we are through here.
Symes @ 119:
Primarily though, it is illegal, as defined by the Nuremberg Accords, the Geneva Conventions, The US UCMJ, and local law and custom. Torture (and specifically waterboarding) gets you tried and convicted in Belgium and the Hague ( 1980s: The military government of Chad, led by Hissene Habre, uses waterboarding to torture opponents of the regime. Habre was indicted in Belgium for torture).
So your turn, but I'm not expecting much.
On a positive note...the main difference between conservatives and us cracker-jack liberals...
this discussion ;)
Symes @ 119:
My thesis is simple. We face an enemy who lives for death. Therefore, we must employ techniques that are admittedly hardcore in order to extract from them information which they would not otherwise divuldge. Even, and especially, in the face of their own death.
Immoral according to whom? I didn't realize morality was absolute.
Aiight, dog... GO!
PS - Your post covering some historical perspective on waterboarding was incredibly informative and very interesting. Not to... ahem, ask you to do any extra work, but is there a link or something you can offer for further review?
Frank @ 121:
Huh?
MullitOver @ 122:
It IS illegal to torture ANYONE (no distinctions between civilians, combatants or non combatants) as laid down by the Geneva Conventions, and Article 4 of the US Constitution states that our treaties have force of law. Hard core enemies or not, we are a nation of laws. Break them and you are a criminal, there is no flexibility in that.
BTW - regardless of GW's prevarications, the Conventions apply to EVERYONE without exception. If we used GW's interpretation of what a fighter is or isn't resistance fighters of ANY stripe would not be covered, and they definitely are.
That torture doesn't work has been given a lot of airtime already, how about you provide your sources that torture works instead since you are the one holding the position that is outside the mainstream opinion of the world community and it's legal systems.
If you can seriously consider torture to be moral then you are one sick puppy in need of some serious help.
Not even Rumsfeld tried to claim that, he just called it useful.
I'll do the extra work after you, you make extraordinary claims so back em up.
MullitOver @ 123:
He said you are incapable of intelligent discussion.
REPEAT AFTER ME:
It's not "Waterboarding." Waterboarding sounds like surfing.
>>It's "Partial Drowning Interrogation."
It's not "Waterboarding." Waterboarding sounds like surfing.
>>It's "Partial Drowning Interrogation."
It's not "Waterboarding." Waterboarding sounds like surfing.
>>It's "Partial Drowning Interrogation."
It's not "Waterboarding." Waterboarding sounds like surfing.
>>It's "Partial Drowning Interrogation."
TC-14 @ 126:
Or you can just call it torture and be done with it.
Kudos Symes! Get a load of "MullitOver". Not only is he or she not capable of understanding your clear and concise posts on the illegality of waterboarding AND the historical examples of PROSECUTION of waterboarding. To top it off, "...is there a link or something you can offer..."? As if a "link" would clarify the moral ambiguity and change the mind of someone so ENTHUSIASTIC about waterboarding.
Jumping Catfish! People like this drive me bananas! Sorry "MullitOver", no offense. I'm sure you're a good person. It's just so goddamn embarrassing to have to explain what every normal, educated, post-Holocaust, American should CLEARLY UNDERSTAND TO BE TORTURE! Does anybody learn anything from history??
WNYC is New York public radio -- not NPR which is national. It's a small distinction but important. Brian Lehrer is one of the most ethical and balanced voices on air ways. That segment was on last week and it wasn't at all the way it's being represented. It's clear from this discussion that few people actually heard the discussion -- and are commenting on the news report as opposed to the actual segment. It may seem naive or simplistic to have such a basic discussion. But by going back to the essential questions -- what is waterboarding, what is torture, and what if anything does it accomplish -- it was possible to strip away the accumulated rhetoric and get to the heart of the matter.
FWIW, NPR out here in LA did a very good show on torture and waterboarding. I did a post on it about a week back - you can listen to it online. They had a right-wing tool, but also Malcolm Nance and Scott Horton.
This is not about their being unsure if this is torture or not. They just do not care.
It is more about who is doing it and since it is the BushCo, no matter what they do, it must be defended.
I was on that program and put the answer definately to bed ... its torture. No more discussion. Next subject.
Hey, I've got an idea! Why not just substitute the word abortion for tourture and call yourselves conservatives...
sometimes you're all just two sides of the same coin.
Eddybaby @ 70:
NPR never ran Jamal's recordings. They caved in to pressure from Bob Dole.
That said, NPR is just as "public" as Fox News is... NPR needs to be broken up and a new funding structure needs to be created that allows independent public radio stations to do their own thing. Too many public stations today suck off NPR's teat (which sucks off corporate teat) and don't do anything local or diverse. The sad thing is, it didn't start off that way...
The Middle Path @ 133:
That is disingenuous as well.
Not the same subject or the same crime.
Do try to be a little more discriminating, you sound like a fool.
(Yes, I attacked you personally. It's what we will be doing from now on when you guys show your lack of intelligence since debating doesn't work with morons like yourself.)
OMG
What a great thread, these were my thoughts EXACTLY!!
As a matter of fact, I rescinded my membership to WNYC soon after 9/11, when it was clear the fascists were in charge.... NPR has really changed for the worse...
The Brian Lehrer Show is among the WORST offenders. Talk about a wolf in sheep's clothing! His views are suspect and often insidious, and he ALWAYS whores out the idea of fairness and "bipartisanship" by giving equal time to absurd and unethical neocon views.
"High-brow wanna-be Garbage" masquerading as quality!
Yuck!
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SuzanneNYC @ 129:
uhm, with all due respect, I DISAGREE!!!!
and, yes, I unfortunately heard the pathetic show.
Dear SuzanneNYC, simply DEBATING the issue legitimizes the position that: it is a debatable issue.
This is a very basic TRICK in debate, and politicians and diplomats use the tactic all the time, or at least try to... The fact that Brian Lehrer, hardly an ethical or balanced voice in my progressive opinion, debated the issue reveals a lot about how he uses his forum and about his aggenda...
Typical!
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Exactly!
Like I said above, it's like saying there is merit in debating dousing indigents on lighter fluid and torching them.
No difference.
And no, there is no merit at all in a discussion of that activity.
Torture is cruel and inhumane, counterproductive and more to the point illegal throughout the civilized world.
No debate required, unless of course you are desperately looking for a way to justify your own barbarism.
The Middle Path @ 133:
Hmmm... so how often does natural spontaneous torture occur?
Why not just substitute the word feather for torture and call yourselves macaroni...
MullitOver said:
"My thesis is simple. We face an enemy who lives for death. Therefore, we must employ techniques that are admittedly hardcore in order to extract from them information which they would not otherwise divuldge. Even, and especially, in the face of their own death"
If they live for death then what do they care if they get waterboarded? Waterboarding is supposed to put you to the brink of drowning, making you feel like you are about to die.
If the enemy is so intent on death then "in the face of their own death" seems like where they want to be.
Think about it.
I really can't understand the hate some of you all are heaping on Brian Lehrer.
He has to be fair in presenting all the viewpoints, that doesn't mean he is trying to trick you.
And for the record I have listened to shows where I feel he didn't press hard enough on certain issues but to be fair, he does a great job.
If you listen to his show every day you would undoubtedly lean alot.
Like I said before, to even debate tortures merits is an empty exercise and only serves to give traction to the idea that water boarding and torture might be acceptable in certain circumstances.
Lehrer is OK, but this subject is not deserving of debate. It is only deserving of an effort to educate the populace on it's illegality and to remind of the international condemnation we face for advocating it's use.
Would you give Lehrer or any other TV personality a pass on a show debating the merits of drive by shootings?
Leherer is an apologist...
His agenda is specious, he shows this over and over...
You say:If you listen to his show every day you would undoubtedly lean alot.
No offense, but that may be tru for YOU. When I listen to his show, I end up screaming at the radio, wondering WHY elephants and gorillas are left to be while he skirts/censors/dismisses issues and callers...
In my humble opinion, he is a part of the problem, just as he prestends he is working for the solution.
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Fair enough, I listen to his show and hear many informative guests on a wide variety of issues, of major importance (war, healthcare, etc.) or minor distractions (tv, restaurants, etc.) and always learn more about the issues because there was a good rational discdussion.
You may listen differently, cool.
Every journalist should sign the following pledge:
I __________ promise never to defend or even discuss in an abstract form (I.E. covering my ass by placing a question mark after an otherwise offensive statement) any form of torture or enhanced interrogation or aggressive interrogation or any form of interrogation unless and until I have personally subjected myself to that form of interrogation with full knowledge that any information I divulge while being interrogated shall be considered public domain and I waive any and all liability (I.E. cause of action for invasion of privacy, libel, slander, etc.) to any person(s) for disclosing such information (including but not limited to embarrasing details about one's private life such as infidelity, sexual proclivities, illegal activities).
If I violate this pledge it shall be a considered a violation of my employment agreement and if I do not resign the position I held when I violated this pledge, I agree to place in front of the camera or print right after my name (if a print or online journalist/blogger) in bold letters the statement that I am a ASS-KISSER OF THE RULING CLASS.
Signed,
_________________________
XYZ Reporter/Journalist/Blogger/Opinion writer, talking head.
Notarized by ABC notary.
Someone did some great parodies of NPR's McNeil-Lehrer report a few years back starting with the intro line:
"Tonight Robin, we ask the question 'Should one man own another?'"
I think it was Alexander Cockburn (although I'm not as big a fan as I was when I was younger).
Sinch @ 144:
fair enough.
I am familiar with your position, it was my position as well. In the beginning.
Before NYC, I lived in Boston and used to listen to Chris Lydon, former host of "The Connection" on WBUR, a show similar to Brian Lehrer's,,, --but much better, and way more fair-informative AND -Progressive--- (OK, so this is pre-Bush, but Lehrer has demonstrated repeatedly, at least to me, that "he is a wolf in sheep's clothing")
When I moved to NYC, I was shocked to hear Lehrer's show, in which he basically serves, (IMHO) as an apologist and mollifier for all things "system"..., while he claims "balance"!
So, I hope you gain, from my posts and frustrated experience, a little more critical ear when you listen and determine the show's content, direction, and agenda.
Peace!
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Me, I'll take the 10th degree of waterboarding - the one where I hang ten, waiting for the next big wave! But seriously...
Degrees of waterboarding, er water torture? Let's get rid of the deceptive language, first NPR. Call it what it used to be called when we prosecuted these crimes with the death penalty.
Next they'll call the hanging torture, the Dippity-Doo.
I came across this accompanying video of Naomi Klein's book, 'Shock Doctrine' and there is a clip of a CIA video in it showing different torture techniques. The film is from the '50's, when we didn't torture back then either, supposedly.
http://tinyurl.com/35emsh
NPR is Fox News for "liberals".
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