Questioning "Intelligent Design" in Texas? You're Fired.
By bluegal Wednesday Nov 28, 2007 9:01pm
image from Saint Gasoline, click for larger.
Austin (TX) American-Statesman:
The state's director of science curriculum has resigned after being accused of creating the appearance of bias against teaching intelligent design.
Comer was put on 30 days paid administrative leave shortly after she forwarded an e-mail in late October announcing a presentation being given by Barbara Forrest, author of "Inside Creationism's Trojan Horse," a book that says creationist politics are behind the movement to get intelligent design theory taught in public schools. Forrest was also a key witness in the Kitzmiller v. Dover case concerning the introduction of intelligent design in a Pennsylvania school district. Comer sent the e-mail to several individuals and a few online communities, saying, "FYI."
Eugenie Scott, executive director of the National Center for Science Education, which sent the original e-mail to Comer announcing the event, said Comer's situation seems to be a warning to agency employees.
"This just underscores the politicization of science education in Texas," Scott said. "In most states, the department of education takes a leadership role in fostering sound science education. Apparently TEA employees are supposed to be kept in the closet and only let out to do the bidding of the board."
Needless to say this is taking the science blogs by storm...more at two of my favorites, Bad Astronomy (thanks for the tip, Phil) and Pharyngula.
Update: Some commenters are taking offense that this post is anti-Christian. I wrote it. I'm a Christian (believing Quaker). A great many members of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State believe as I do that intelligent design is a specific attempt by Fundamentalists to inject religion into the public schools, and some of us also believe that if the State teaches the Bible they will misinterpret it for our children. Religious freedom requires freedom from anyone's individual religious beliefs being force taught in the public schools as scientific fact. Read more here. BG
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Thank God for seperation of Church and State!
should we be surprised?
I live in the northeast.
Grew up in northeastern Illinois.
It's easy for me to criticize Texans. But I won't do it.
All Americans bear responsibility for our country's slide into a Dark Age.
Almost, but not quite, as bad as those idiot Sudanese..whoops, they're Muslim--can't criticize them, must be sensitive to their "culture." Sorry.
Is crooks and liars trying to insinuate that you are stupid if you believe the universe was created instead of miracling itself existence? What a warm, welcoming place...
andrew @ 4:
Maybe if you stuck to the subject at hand you would not have to appoligize so much.
By the way, i can't vote or do anything about what is going on in Sudan since i am not Sudanese. Are you, by chance, Sudanese?
The Dumbing down of America.
Remember when America was the leader in science?
Remember when America was looked to by the rest of the world?
Remember when America made the best products?
Remember when our Democracy was a model for the free world?
Remember when America's Presidents were learned men of words?
Remember when you didn't have to worry about the Banking system collapsing and taking you with it?
America is looked at askew in most other Nations now.
Nice Job mr. bush (doesn't deserve proper capitalization.)
That venn diagram is AWESOME!
"Apparently TEA employees are supposed to be kept in the closet and only let out to do the bidding of the board."
That about nails it.
Fourteen Defining Characteristics of Fascism
#8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. Unlike communist regimes, the fascist and protofascist regimes were never proclaimed as godless by their opponents. In fact, most of the regimes attached themselves to the predominant religion of the country and chose to portray themselves as militant defenders of that religion. The fact that the ruling elite’s behavior was incompatible with the precepts of the religion was generally swept under the rug. Propaganda kept up the illusion that the ruling elites were defenders of the faith and opponents of the “godless.” A perception was manufactured that opposing the power elite was tantamount to an attack on religion.
14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak.
Newspeak was invented by Orwell, in Nineteen Eighty-Four, as the official language of what he called Ingsoc. Elements of Ur-Fascism are common to different forms of propaganda. The Nazi schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary and an elementary syntax in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.
Fourteen Warning Signs of a Fascist State
-by Umberto Eco
More Republican anti-science at work.
Although what can we expect from a country that refuses to elect candidates that do not swear they believe in an invisible being that will punish everyone who misbehaves by torturing them for all time? When that is what "normal" people are expected to believe, what do you expect?
Shiva H Vishnu @ 7:
Yes it was 7 years ago.
Pete @ 5:
Are you insinuating that if we don't believe an old man who has always existed even before anything existed created everything that does exist (but there is no need to explain why or how He came to exist) that we are somehow unwelcoming?
This was on the front page of today's paper here in Austin. It's a sad state of affairs for normally intelligent people who work REALLY hard to educate our beloved little rug-rats.
First the Republicans spend several election cycles stealing Christians away from their RIGHTFUL home in the Democratic party... then Creationists steal public education from moderate Democrats and compassionate conservatives.
This is an Up-Side-Down world, and it's Rush Limbaugh's fault.
Shiva H Vishnu @ 7:
America was NEVER any of those things that YOU can remember...it was always a LIE....you're just angry because you're finally waking up to the nightmare
Pete @ 5:
Um, what exactly is the difference between the two options that you describe?
And it is my perception that the diagram you are in a snit about implies that you are stupid if you want to teach "ineulijunt dezine" as science. Keep it in a religious context where it belongs.
xoites defends Constitution @ 1:
Cute. An Atheist thanking God. :lol:
Not for nothing, but I was educated in Texas and even grew up to be a scientist! Shocking, I know. However, that was 30 long years and an evolution of the War on Intellect. Thank Bob my kids are learning real science in another state.
Pete @ 5:
Evolution does not equal the Big Bang Theory. We are insinuating that intelligent design should not be taught in public schools because it is religion based.
Try again.
Pete @ 5:
Time for a lesson on Venn Diagrams: If the 'stupidity' circle does not fully contain the 'religion' circle, then belief in religion does not imply stupidity. It IS possible to have one without the other.
LibertyLover @ 17:
I am told God made my Atheism possible.
Well, now this is not unexpected, Texas is number one in 'dumb'. There's something about those vast, open spaces in Texan's heads that mimics the vast, open spaces of the state.
DNA studies have shown that Texans, on average, are only one gene away from fruit flies, and religious Texans, which is the majority in the state, would be identical to fruit flies if they only lived one day. Unfortunately, many religious Texans live longer than that, but not to worry, we've overcome bigger hurdles than this.
Remember, 'god' is on the side of the non-religious, he must be, otherwise he would not have put the religious Texans in such a god-forsaken place.
He buried that ass*ole John MaGee, or MaGoo, or whatever his name is running CUFO, or CUNI, or whatever that crazy zionist cult is, in San Antonio, for christ's sake, which shows you what 'god' thinks of him.
Can we give Texas back to Mexico?
rasta @ 15:
No we did have Golden Era's here and there. Where good karma negated all the shit.
Chris H. @ 18:
Wait a minute...
You need to find a more liberal church.
Evolution describes how God was able to manufacture all those different species... and The Big Bang explains how God managed to get all those galaxies and stars up there in the first place. The word "day" in Genisis is really a very sophisticated METAPHOR. Didn't you know that? (You have to think in "geologic time and verse."
Pete @ 5:
Wait. After rexamining what you said let me restate what you said with different words but THE EXACT SAME MEANING.
"Is crooks and liars trying to insinuate that you are stupid if you believe the universe miracled itself existence instead of miracling itself existence? What a warm, welcoming place..."
Pete @ 5:
Not really. There are spiritually inclined people around here. Imagine that. The difference is the spiritually inclined around here don't go shoving their trip down peoples throats.
Cowboy Bob in Austin @ 24:
Geologic time does not exist in the Creationist Universe.
Well, Texas gave us bush ... If there is a God, all evidence shows that He hates bush and is punishing all Americans because we are stupid and elected such a moron.
Pete @ 5:
Geez, Pete, it's my observation that C&L, while open to many extremes of rational opinion, was not meant to be a 'warm, welcoming place' for idiots, or reality-challenged lunatics, or faith-based boobs. There are asylums, rehab centers, and right-wing blogs for that purpose, as well as Pedophilic Cathedrals, Perverted Sexual Places of Worship, and republican caucuses.
Pete @ 5:
It's insinuating that people responsible for teaching science shouldn't be fired for being biased against things that aren't scientific. ID is not scientific...
FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER!!!!!
xoites defends Constitution @ 13:
If you put up a little picture that implies people who think differently than you are stupid, then yes.
Pete @ 5:
My, we're sensitive this evening aren't we? :(
Chris H. @ 18:
I don't see anything in the graphic about public schools.
Pete @ 5:
I don't think it was insinuated, but it's true.
Religion is a mental defect.
So, can atheists who have power in the church board fire a pastor in the church for teaching creationism?
and insist that atheism be given equal time in the sermon as an alternative belief system?
Gregg @ 360:
Now there's a question no one thought to ask.
Because it's fucking stupid.
Gregg @ 360:
This ranks way up there as one of the most "unique" questions i have ever heard, bar none.
NWonitsway
I'll answer your two most pressing questions:
a) what created the Universe?
We don't know. The real bugger is that you don't, either.
Out of the many possibilities, you have hung your hat on just one - a Creator. Not only have you picked just one possibility out of the pile, you have picked the LEAST likely option, to boot. If we assume that God is truly omnipotent and omniscient, then this means he can keep an eye on trillions upon trillions of planets and trillions upon trillions upon trillions of life forms all at the same time. Suffice it to say, he would be the most complex being in the Universe, period, which makes him unique. As in ONE ONLY, i.e. the rarest being possible. What are the odds such a being exists? Vanishingly small, as in so close to zero you can't even fathom how close to zero it is.
Secondly, the minute you make the existence of a Creator a requirement, i.e. nothing this complex and varied could exist without a Creator, then you have a major logical issue. Such a Creator would himself be amazingly complex and varied, thus requiring a Creator for the Creator, which would then require a Creator for the Creator for the Creator ... on and on into infinity. The only way out of this logically infinite reduction is to admit that complex and varied things could possibly exist WITHOUT a Creator. Whew, that means that you don't have to explain who created God, but that also opens the door to asking ... hmm, if God doesn't require a Creator, then perhaps the Universe doesn't require one, either?
Statistically, the odds of life spontaneously popping up on any single planet is vanishingly small. The odds of it popping up on ANY planet when are talking about the sheer number of stars and planets in the Universe is actually pretty good. The odds of it having happened here on Earth is 100%. You yourself are proof. Out of all the exceedingly few planets capable of life, Earth is one.
b) Prove that Hitler is a man of God?
Prove that he isn't! By all accepted definitions, he fits the bill. He had the same sacraments I did and participated in many masses, certainly more than I have. If you mean that his behaviour doesn't match the stated tenets of the Church you are correct, but that also means that NO Christian is actually Christian. No single human being on the planet matches the behavioural requirements of the various Christian churches. They try, and some get closer than others, but none of them reach it. So I miss it by 50% and Hitler misses it by 99% ... who gets to decide the percentage beyond which one is no longer Christian?
Here's a hint: it certainly isn't you.
If God is truly omniscient and omnipotent, then his capacity to forgive is limitless as well. Any limitation you have placed on that is YOUR invention. Hitler may very well be in Heaven right now, completely cleansed of sin by a God more willing and able to forgive than you are.
363 gaki
When you put it like that i wonder why i didn't become an Athiest sooner. I had a much larger chance of being an Athiest when i was in Catholic School, hell NWonitsway still has a much bigger chance of being an Athiest now than God has a chance of being God.
Pete @ 63:
Yes, but it is not science. Which is why it shouldn't be taught in schools. Would you care to define the concept of "irriducibly complex" and then point out all the "irreducibly complex" things in nature?
I have no idea who originally wrote this, but I love it, so I'm going to toss it in and run like hell:
MacPrince @ 366:
That made my day!
Thank you. :)
proud atheist @ 293:
Nice soul you got there...be a shame if anything happened to it.
Thanks for highlighting this, BG.
Evacuate me! Small-town Texas is ESPECIALLY horrible.
Oh, so creationists/"intelligent design" proponents- if you were offended by that graphic in the article, you certainly shouldn't look at this one.
No sirreee.
In response to CD (I think) who said that Atheism is a belief, no different from religion ...
Atheism is a belief, yes, but it is very different from Religion.
Atheism has one tenet - that belief should require empirical proof. It sets one single minimum standard for all other belief systems to meet.
Religion, on the other hand, has a completely different standard altogether. It requires faith (belief WITHOUT proof). These two core beliefs are logically opposite, as even the dimmest among us should be able to see. Of course, religions are also fully-fledged belief SYSTEMS and so they add to that core belief in faith, dozens upon dozens of behavioural requirements, social strictures, power structures, wealth redistribution schemes, mythology, etc.
So, not only are religion and Atheism different in type (they believe in opposite things), they are also different in scale (Atheism has one tenet, religions have many).
What is interesting is that, should proof in a deity arrive, Atheists would begin to believe: their belief allows for new knowledge to arrive and meet that minimum standard of proof.
Religion, on the other hand, is deathly afraid of proof to arrive. If it arrives and proves God doesn't exist ... there goes the religion. If it arrives and proves that God exists, but isn't THEIR God ... there goes the religion. If it arrives, proves God exists and this God happens to be their God, but his rules don't match those of the religion ... there goes the religion. Chief, however, is the notion that you don't NEED proof, all you need is faith. The minute proof arrives, then, faith is no longer needed. Uh, but you just said faith was a requirement? Correct. Confused? Should be.
Bluegal; I take no offense to this post at all. There's nothing "Anti-Christian" about pointing out hypocrisy and idiocy. Intelligent Design IS NOT SCIENCE; it really is that simple isn't it?
Hell, even Pope John Paul II said that Evolution was "more than a Theory". I think we're in perfectly fair territory here.
My town is becoming the same way, and I am waiting for something like this to happen here. One of the pastors resigned from the school board in frustration that the other members had voted to spend 12K on religious-political posters for the classrooms. I wish he would have stayed on.
Sometimes I feel like running away from here, but that would only serve these power-grabbers to have more control over this place, of which they are a minority.
They are willing to make it ugly and it's going to be tough for me to stomach this fight, but if I do not stand up to this, I will see the ideals of the constitution that I cherish go away from the place I want to call home.
Once again,
I'm at odds as to why this is even a topic of discussion.
I'm sad to say that here in Europe the phrase
"Only in America"
once used to mean:
"damn, they did something really grand and big again, is nothing impossible for these guys? I wish people over here would have the balls to do the same."
but is now mostly heard meaning:
"I can't imagine any other place where this kind of crazy stuff could happen, have these people collectively lost their minds?"
And I'm not even in France.
I'm hoping, and most of Europe with me, that this time on this topic the US influence stops at the Atlantic.
I know it sounds condescending but I'm saying this in the kindest possible way: please, my american friends, get your act together.
JJohnson @ 373:
Which just goes to show that the Pope, along with most people, doesn't understand what the word "theory" means.
That's why you should listen to scientists on scientific subjects, not superstition peddlers, no matter how grand their palaces are.
Is crooks and liars trying to insinuate that you are stupid if you believe the universe was created instead of miracling itself existence? What a warm, welcoming place....
What does "miracling itself existence" mean? Sounds like gibberish. Can someone enlighten me?
There was no place on the chart for Pastafarianism! You've insulted my religion! Therefore, you are fired!
Just kidding. I live in TX and, believe me, it's exactly as you described.
- Jaden
www.undergroundunrest.com/blog
'Keon @ # 375 - somewhere in Europe'
This whole issue is exclusively an American Issue.
Sometme you wonder " have they collectively lost their minds?"
Answer : Not all but a major minority.
Hopefully MIT, CAL Tech, Harvard, U. of Chicage, etc. can endure.
Why in America?
Was it all those Puritans that came across the ocean ? Maybe but probably not.
Is the American Constitution fundamentally flawed ? Maybe but probably not.
In America are politics and religion intertwined ? To a certain extent.
Is religion in America a business? Probably yes.
Piss on Texas! (The Intelligent Way, as follows)
Wait until the governor, or some other Texas whacko, decides the drought has gone on long enough, and decides to pray for rain, like that Born Again Boob in Atlanta.
As he's praying, we charter a bunch of planes, fill them with beer, and start criss-crossing the whole state, pissing all over Texas.
When the Jaysus yo-yos are shouting 'Praise be to Jaysus, Oh Lord, the rains come, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, our prayers are answered', we unfold the banners to tow behind our planes, that say,
'DON'T DRINK YELLOW RAIN!"
xoites defends Constitution @ 342:
Good morning!
He is going to get into Heavenland Amusement Park because he is going to beg Big Sky Daddy's Son for admission right before his own park gets repossessed. :)
ID = Idiotic Delusion
This 'concept' (not even a theory, because theories have actual application to them) is a house of mirrors attempt at denying scientific fact...nothing more
Its a mystical group of observations & suppositions with no shred of scientific data to 'prove' any of it....
You want to know why there are no computer models/simulations for ID...because theres absolutely no empirical data, whereas evolution has almost limitless amounts
One is just a supplement to the bedtime storytelling of creationism, the other is readily seen in nature every single day...once again...tough call when deciding what to 'believe'....
xoites defends Constitution @ 367:
Yeah, that's on one of those Motivation Poster spoofs. Personally, I would have changed "make you live forever" with "grant you posthumous immortality".
Seriously, you live forever.. after you die. Why are so many people so self-important that they would believe in this shit. If there was ever a case against Evolution, it would be the level of stupidity involved in accepting notions like posthumous immortality or the invisible sky genie that grants it without question that seems to be inherent in so many people.
Dear God, protect me from Your followers...
====
Gregg @ 360:
Please tell me that you did not spend much time thinking about this email..........I''m worried about you.
negoldie @ 377:
Crooks and Liars is indeed calling you a boob if you think that ID is science.
And so are we.
Also, we didn't say anything about miracling(sic) into existence since miracle's are the territory of superstition.
You guys are the ones who believe it "miricaled" into existence in it's current state complete with 2 dumb people and an apple tree.
I am a Pastafarian and take issue with anyone teaching creationism without including my beliefs as well.
Doin' my part to piss off the religious right. ;)
The majority of so called Xtians in this are country are sheep. I grew up being coerced to go to Southern Baptist Churches...certain family members donated to PTL, (you know, the Jim and Tammy Faye Church) Jerry Falwell and the like...by the age of 10 I knew that organized religion was bullshit. And I especially hated...YES, HATED to hear the preachers or whatever say Jesus...because they drawled it out...Jaaaaysus. Praaaise Jaaaaysus...to this day it really makes me just want to smash things.
Anyone with half a brain, knows that religion is all about money, power and control. And I wouldn't lose any sleep if religion were banned in this country...which I know will never happen, but a man can dream can't he?
Symes @ 386:
Dude! that's just so wrong! You forgot about the talking snake!
As the late Patrick Moynahan once wisely said:
"You're entitled to your own opinion. You're not entitled to your own facts."
The godbots seem incapable of understanding that accepting the facts of evidence and the fact of evolution does not mean they have to give up their fairy tales. Unfortunately, it takes an enlightened mind to understand this, so it makes the godbots rail against it even more.
And when I say godbot, I mean the feverish and fervent zealots who want holy wars and the legalized murder of unbelievers, not the "yeah, I think there's a god" types.
I am very much offended by this post. If Crooks and Liars wants to alienate everyone who is religious, you're doing a good job for them.
I have no problem with your point that intelligent design should not be taught in public schools. I agree with that. I think it belongs in religion classes only. That's not my beef here. My problem is with your very insulting Venn diagram.
"Stupidity" and "religion" intersect with intelligent design. That means, according to the author, not everyone who is stupid or religious believes in intelligent design, but 100% of the people who do believe in it are stupid and religious.
The author using "I'm a Christian" defense doesn't cut it. In fact, it doesn't even make any sense, unless you are calling yourself "stupid". If you are a Christian (or Jew, or Muslim), then you believe that God created the world. In that case, everything, including evolution, is part of his design (i.e. intelligent design).
In fact, logically, I can't find any reason why anyone should listen to this author. If she thinks that diagram is accurate, then she is either 1) stupid, 2) a hypocrite, or 3) a liar.
Here's another possibility, some people do believe everything was created according to God's plan, and some of us are not stupid, and some of us do not want to force our believes on others. Did you even consider that possibility?
Godspeed
JR
Bud @ 32:
RAmen brother, aarrrrgggggggg...
xoites defends Constitution @ 296:
Have I told you lately that I love you??? :)
John Rohan @ 391:
"God" created the world? What science textbook did you read that in
xoites defends Constitution @ 20:
Cowboy Bob in Austin Says
Evolution describes how God was able to manufacture all those different species… and The Big Bang explains how God managed to get all those galaxies and stars up there in the first place. The word “day” in Genisis is really a very sophisticated METAPHOR. Didn’t you know that? (You have to think in “geologic time and verse.”
"The bible is a metaphor for whatever science ends up discovering" is, indeed, a popular point of view. Useless, but popular.
I'll be impressed when cdesign proponentsists (Google it) actually produce real results and make useful predictions.
Legitimate scientific theories spend years developing bodies of supporting work before anyone suggests including them in high school textbooks.
And I'm all for "teach the controversy." Very short lesson: there isn't any. Not in the scientific community anyway, which is what science classes are supposed to be focused on.
The irony is that this post is appearing on the very night that the classic film Inherit the Wind, which featured Spencer Tracy, Fredric March, and Gene Kelly, and which dealt with the teaching of evolution in a public school during the 1920s, is being shown tonight on TCM.
I am told God made my Atheism possible. in the Creationist Universe.
I meant that
Ha ha!
Don't let no one tell you that God ain't got a sense of humor
Somebody said he's pissed of but that was just a rumor
Boing
Preacher Boob @ 30:
Hey ... no reason allowed in this thread.
(pretty funny though PB)
Pete @ 33:
If you think the picture put up there makes you look stupid then my most charitable comment is you either do not understand a Ben Diagram (ignorant of how they work and what they mean) or you are stupid.
Stupid people are welcome here. Take me, for instance.
Anyone who believes in intelligent design must not believe in George Bush.
L.A. Confidential @ 40:
"I don't want to start any desperate rumours
But I think that God's got a sick sense of humour
And when I die
I expect to find Him laughing..."
Anyone? Anyone?
Cowboy Bob in Austin @ 24:
You need to go to a science class. Evolution explains how life developed from simple prokarotes to the species on earth. The Big Bang theory explains the beginning of the Universe. (Can't tell if you were joking or not)
moniker @ 43:
Nice.
"Clearly there's a higher being who knows what He's doing. That's why we have giraffes, hippopotami, and the Clap." - Kurt Vonnegut
Is crooks and liars trying to insinuate that you are stupid if you believe the universe was created instead of miracling itself existence? What a warm, welcoming place…
I don't know about C&L in general, but I'll take a stab at it:
If you believe the universe was created by an intelligent designer, then yes, you are stupid.
Ridicule is the only appropriate response to this suggestion. Which is not to say that it isn't POSSIBLE, but rather that there is simply inadequate evidence to invest belief in this hypothesis.
Investing belief in the absence of adequate supporting evidence is manifest stupidity. It may be part of your faith, but it is simply stupid.
John Rohan @ 391:
No. I can safely say that there isn't a single person who believes in Creationism who I wouldn't qualify as not only a crackpot, but a social parasite as well.
Zenrage the godkiller
Ah, Texas.... Just like Kansas. Preparing young minds for the high tech jobs of 1652.
Some religious folks are indeed smart, and nice and not pushy about their beliefs...but most xtians I know, are bigoted, hypocritical, holier than thou, weak minded assholes. who condemn those who don't believe as they do.
To Mr. Rohan.
You don't seem like the aforementioned type.
xoites defends Constitution @ 20:
And his followers made it necessary.
John Rohan @ 391:
I am having a difficult time understanding your complaint.
I support your right to believe in God and if you like that he created the world, the universe and everything.
Inteligent Design pretends to be a science and has nothing to do with your faith. It attempts to marry church and state which is a violation of our Constitution by forcing religious faith into the public school system in the guise of pseudo-science. It has no basis in science. In fact it is not even a theory. It is just fiction.
I am very much offended that you or anybody else who wants to foist this crap on us thinks the rest of the rational humans in this country should shut up and swallow a pile of crap whole and not object.
Hillbilly science and cartoon physics. Embrace it. This is your future.
If it isn't in the Bible, it doesn't come from God, it comes from Satan.
Evolution isn't in the Bible. So Satan created it.
Automobiles aren't in the Bible. Satan created them.
If you drive and automobile, you are a worshiper of Satan and you hate Jesus.
NWonitsway @ 84:
repent or jesus will send you to texas and eternal damnation!!!!!praise de lard!
Dang it, I just realized that Computers aren't in the Holy Bible.
We all hate Jesus and worship Satan!
charles @ 400:
Cartoon physics. Is that where the character runs off a cliff, ponders his predicament before plunging 800 feet, geting squashed like a bug and resurecting himself so he can go find another cliff to fall off of?
Yeah, that's as real as Inteligent Design.
PBS had a wonderful documentary detailing the Dover School Board case. It really shows how much the right wingers are really on a crudade.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/program.html
Then you should try reading it first (see below).
You are entitled to believe it's just fiction if you want to. But marrying church and state is something that some misguided people are doing in support of ID (most of them are actually creationists instead). That has nothing to do with the belief itself, which is just that the development of the universe and living organisms are best explained from an intelligent cause rather than by random events and natural selection.
Since I just said I don't support it being taught in public schools and I don't want to force my beliefs on anyone else, you obviously just wrote that without even reading my post. Not the best way to write a rebuttal.
Texas is the proof of evolution and the defeat of cintelligent designm.
I live here, and there's no evidence for intelligent life.
Sorry, I lost my thought.
Must have forgot to turn out the lights when it followed my mind.
Y'all ever heard of chimps flinging poo?
Here in Texas, I hear, they still have cow chip throwing contests.
So God created man and ALL the beasts of the earth including monkeys and it was good.
Biuble also says he created everything else including bacteria and viruses and other pathogens that harm his human creations. Not fair!
But to make up for that God gave man/womankind the ability to reason. Because the Bible was not big enough to tell us everything we were given reason to figure stuff out for ourselves.
Science is the collective name given to the different areas of reasoning God gave us.
God's day must have been different from our day - after all he also created day and night. God's day may have been eons or nanoseconds. But since God is infinite, I go for eons. He left records in the Earth of those eons for us to discover. He left a museum of fossils of plants and animals that he already created for practice and gave us hints about how he worked before he got to his big "smart" creation. Humans.
God tells us that he created Woman (Eve) out of Adams rib. OK, so literally, he must have been telling us about embryonic stem cells because Adam and Eve hadn't has sex yet. But Eve was a secondary work. His first work was man or did he mean mankind and some scribe did not translate exactly from some obscure text carved on tablets? Seems that the chromosomes of men and women differ slightly - that hairy Y and X thing. Did He leave it to us to figure out how he got an X female out of a Y male. Ok, Creationists will have to come up with a second creation thingy - or maybe He was just into a little tinkering?
He only tells us he created Man (Adam) in his own image. So what was God's image really like? Sure not spelled out in King James. So we don't know what Adam looked like either. Oh Good God You didn't mean you looked like a monkey ancestor? Hey, God didn't have anything against monkeys (well really only the ancestors of modern monkeys) so why do we? Except they were dumb, right?
Well, if Creationists deny science they deny what God wanted us to do - reason. So some people really are monkeys without the ability to reason.
Those who support ID also believe they're viewing a documentary when they watch "The Flintstones".
(Since the earth is only 6,000 years old - well, of course man and dinosaurs lived at the same time.)
Yabba-Dabba-Doo!
Praise Bob!
He kicks Flying Spaghetti Monster's in the meatballs!
http://www.obscurantist.com/engine/images/bob_dobbs.gif
tyree @ 402:
Mocking someone because of their faith is not cool...especially when this particular poster sounds like he lives what he preaches (or is preached to about). These are the kind of people we need to welcome; as long as they don't push it on you, and are trying to "do the right thing."
With that said, I'm sorry...but the minute you remove REAL SCIENCE from American schools, we will lose any bit of competitiveness we have left in the Global economy, and these idiots/liars/wolves in sheep's clothing just do not see that. We'd be doomed for sure.
I cannot stand watching these IDr's talking...they don't know ANYTHING.
But as another poster put it, if your greatest fear is hell vs. heaven, there's not much room left for the economy, tolerance for others, and basic common sense.
So sad....
...it really makes me BOILING mad to think that these people who are all about "God" are willing to lie cheat and steal to get their beliefs institutionalized...what hypocritical dumb asses that they can't even recognize the inconsistency of their actions.
WTF!?!?
Awesome documentary..posting again:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/program.html
Out of curiosity, if it was acceptable for Jesus to teach in parable, isn't it possible that Creation, and everything else in the Bible, including Jesus, are all parables?
John Rohan @ 406:
Sorry, but Inteligent Design was invented for one reason and one reason only and that was to put it in the schools. If you believe in it then you offend me.
Kitzmiller v. Dover.
the end
www.truthbeknown.com Well.... Jesus is a misrepresentation, sorry, the truth will set you free, it do have a bit of a sting to it....... I like Horus, or Krishnah, may be Dionysus. History will teach you something........
NWonitsway @ 84:
Hold on a minute there bible boy...nobody's attacked your deity...just your deities ignorant followers. Ever think for a minute that maybe, juuuuust maybe, some folks don't care about what a bunch of churchies think about them, until it interferes with our ability to live our lives as we see fit?!
And really when you REALLY REALLY think about the whole GOD thing...it's quite silly actually, and DAMNED PRIMITIVE!!!
This religious crap that's goin on around the country...I swear ta Elvis, is starting to piss me off...you churchies need to STAY THE FUCK OUT OF POLITICS, SCHOOLS AND actually DO SOMETHING other than condemn people who believe differently...I honestly think organized religion will sooner or later lead to the demise of civilization as we know it.
FUCKIN A! I'm SICK of you bible thumpin assholes pushin your beliefs on everyone. If more Xtians actually ACTED MORE CHRISTLIKE, I would have no problem with you people.
But NOOOOO, the vast majority are a bunch of goddamn finger-wavin, fire and brimstone, HYPOCRITES! If the "Rapture" does occur...I'm betting most so-called Xtians ain't goin to heaven that day. Assholes! Go help some sick folks or somethin.
liberalNmoderation @ 389:
DOH!
Now how could I forget that little detail... :D
Symes @ 419:
Happens to the best of us...
I must apologize to NWonitsway @ 84 for my total knee jerk reply. I responded before I finished reading your post. And while I still feel the same about most Xtians, after having read your entry in its entirety, I came to the conclusion that you don't appear to be like most Xtians I know, and I lumped ya in their with the rest of em. Sorry bout that.
Sometimes, I flap my jaw without thinkin first...not real proud of that.
Lets be fair. Religion sucks in any form. Believe in something higher, sure. But take away all the man-made story crap around it. Believing the Bible/Koran as history or literal messages from god is just plain dumb. No question. And subjecting young minds to it in schools should be forbidden. Let them get scientifically proven facts and make up their own minds. Religious fanatics in the US, have a look at what religion has done in history. Nothing but misery and untold crimes against humanity. Please US, wake up and abolish religion from the government, armies and especially the schools!
For anyone who found this post insulting, you should feel stupid for believing the old testament, written over 2500 years ago, to be the absolute truth. Yeah, we weren't all just a bunch of scared humans just waking up out of their nomad lifestyle and caves who couldn't figure out quite yet why natural disaster struck back then, and took away all we had built, so we explained it with the best weapon we had at the time: superstition. Now we have people cherry-picking the bible for what best suits their ideas. They shun universities when these glutinous fucks owe everything they own to people who went to universities. Someone who's still alive thanks to blood thinners and other medications that help heart disease because your too stupid and lazy to avoid that greasy sandwich once in awhile and take a walk, and then on Sunday you shun the very people and institutions who worked hard for 7 or more years to train and are helping you on a daily basis! What hypocrites! What absolute horror we are living in!
It really makes me sick, and why are all these crazy, backwards-thinking, bible-thumping types always have lots of money and power? Hey, who would Jesus undermine and exploit for his own monetary gain? New bumper sticker idea?
Anyways, I'm done ranting, these people make me sick...
NWonitsway @ 84:
Speak for yourself. That's the problem with ALL religious zealots -- they believe EVERYONE must be in lockstep with them.
Symes @ 419:
Funny thing is now some folk will insist the serpent was a snake, and the Devil, while the writers of Genesis seemed to be making a mytholgical rationale for why sepents walk on their bellies, and during the Medieval/Renaissance days the serpent was presented in art as Adam's first wife Lilith who apparently wanted to be the top, not the bottom while they were doing the nasty.
http://www.televisionheaven.co.uk/cheerside91.jpg
No, not that Lilith.
Funny thing is how so few Christians who still believe one must read Genesis literally (but the Song of Solomon symbolically), have such loud voices compared to the majority of Christians who accept scientific reality, yet always insist they're speaking for ALL Christians.
In the Nova show referenced above, the man that started the whole debacle, said he did it because he believes that evolution makes him feel less special. That the idea that we evolved from other animals, makes us less special in the eyes of God.
Essentially he tore a town apart, lost the school system millions of dollars, only for the sake of vanity.
That is one point of the Christian faith that bothers me. It places man in the center of God's universe. We are exalted above Angels and all the other living things in the universe. To me, this seems to be the height of vanity, when we decide that God loves us best.
When the Jews were enslaved and downtrodden, it must've been a powerful message to hear that God loves each and every one of us, and that he is there for us, no matter where we worship, so long as we remain true in our hearts.
Then the Catholics changed the message. They borrowed confession from the masons, so that the Church could engage in blackmail, and they removed much of the scriptures of the Gospels, to justify tithing and temples.
They hunted the Gnostics and burned them as witches to stop the message that God can be worshiped anywhere and that we should forsake the pursuit of money and material things, while doing our best to walk in the footsteps of Jesus.
They exalted Jesus above the reach of mortal man, and made him the creator of miracles, so that we are separated from him, with the Church acting as an ambassador for true forgiveness.
But since, the Catholic Church has reformed, and has become more liberal. The Pope tells us that there is no conflict between science and religion, that they complement each other in the pursuit of God's truths. Likewise that Pope argues that there is no conflict between Evolution and Genesis, recognizing that the Bible is full of parables and it was never intended to be a complete and total description of God and his works.
But the Fundamentalists, have picked up the mantle of intolerance that was laid to rest by the Catholics. They have defined and limited God to the words in the Bible, arguing that they alone know the complete mind of God, and that they now decide what God did and didn't do. They argue that since evolution is not in the Bible, God didn't create evolution. They essentially argue that God is trapped in the Bible, and incapable of doing anything that isn't explicitly written there.
If so, God can never know of guitars or automobiles. Because these aren't in the Bible, he will not become aware of them, until someone adds new chapters to the Bible and gives God this knowledge.
I think most of here have read Genesis. Who here believes that it explains what God did to create the Heavens and the Earth? Does it contain a blueprint for the process, that is repeatable? Can anyone here do it? If it took God six days to do it, and he was tired when he was done, perhaps there was more involved than just wishing it all into existence? Maybe the story of creation doesn't contain details of those six days, but just a quick summary?
Many claim that ID is science. That implies that there are repeatable experiments that can be performed to verify it. That there are predictions that you can make based on it, that you can test. You can do these things with evolution.
But how do get the Creator to do things on command, so that you can prove that he spontaneously creates new life forms? Can you write him a letter and say, I want a herd of Squirrilaffes? And then moments later you have a yard full of spotted squirrels with long necks? How do you get the Creator to prove the repeatability of experiments, needed to make ID a science?
422 Jake
Actually the bulk of the Old Testament wasn't written down until about 100 years before the Diaspora, when the writting of Scripture became paramount and the basis for a new Judaism after the destruction of the temple and it's priesthood.
All we have otherwise are fragments that don't quite match what we have today, like the Codex Sinaitica (sp?), Codex Vaticanus, Codex Alexandrinus, and the Chester Beatty Papyrus (I always want to say Ned or Warren).
The Dead Sea Scrolls aren't complete Testaments, and no one knows whether they were copies of older scrolls, or merely attempts to write them down for the first time.
The bulk of the New Testament was written from the 3rd century CE to the 8th century CE under the Byzantine Empire.
We should just secede texas (doesn't deserve proper capitalization). george walker bush=texas-william jefferson clinton= alabama...Oh to hell with it... FUCK THE SOUTH!
Entries 426 and 427....awesome...
I live in Austin, Texas. I love this state, but many of its inhabitants are as intellectually backward as anywhere else. I heard this story on the radio yesterday and I was disappointed, but not surprised.
Religion has nothing to do with science, and vice-versa, and the two should not be conflated. It is not the responsibilty of public education leaders to distort the rigorous logic of science to accomodate the conceived discreptancies between the creation story of Abrahamic faith and observational analysis.
The Christian Bible is no more an authoritative treatise on astrophysics and biology, than a primer on quantum theory. Our society will benefit greatly when this is widely understood.
Oh, and seeking to give equal time in high school to stupidity is wicked.
Why is it called Intelligent Design?
Its more like inbreeder design.
"In documents obtained Wednesday through the Texas Public Information Act, agency officials said they recommended firing Comer for repeated acts of misconduct and insubordination. But Comer said she thinks political concerns about the teaching of creationism in schools were behind what she describes as a forced resignation."
If Comer is correct and this is indeed the reason then this is very scary. These are exactly the same things that occur in other theocratic nations such as Iran.
Pete @ 5:
[expletive deleted]
Pete @ 5:
Evolution does not concern the beginnings of the universe. It merely explains the diversity of life forms. You have made a mistake that stupid people commonly make, not that I'm insinuating anything.
Joe O. @ 50:
In Iran the students are protesting. The students at my high school wouldn't protest creationism taught in school.
Chris H. @ 53:
Joe O. @ 50:
This woman has good sense.She`s being fired for having good sense and an open mind.I see a court date in the future for Ms.Comer.I wish her well.
Seems as though Texas is a trend setter when it comes to evangelical absurdity.
Frank Zappa described the right wing evangelicals well :
"Criminal saints on a heavenly mission.
The nation enraptured in pure superstition.
Do you believe in the invisible army?"
xoites defends Constitution @ 42:
I don't think it "makes me look stupid". Some blogger putting up a tasteless graphic on the front page of a website doesn't reflect on me in any way. I just don't understand why it is necessary for a website that consistently takes a stand against malicious behavior directed at generalized groups of people to lower themselves to this level. I don't expect my opinion to be popular, and that's fine, but name calling is not going to facilitate this discussion.
Here's my idea of Church
Time marches on
I learn to crawl, I learn to walk
You couldn't stop me from running
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmALlePQI6c&feature=related
Here in San Antonio, I had a rather enlightening experience in church the other day. I am not a church goer, but I am surrounded by some rather large and wealthy churches here. As part of my work as a journalist I recently attended a festival at one of the very prominent churches here (read politically influential). What was enlightening to me was to hear a couple of speakers, particularly the keynote speaker, who laid the "blame" for what he saw as "warped values" right in the lap of America's universities!
Having been raise in a university environment I'd always been puzzled by the hold this anti-science promoted by Dubya and the neo-cons has on a surprisingly large percentage of our population. Well, this speaker's pronouncements against our universities was greeted by a huge standing ovation by the 5,000-plus attendees!
I found it rather disturbing myself. Disturbing and enlightening at the same time. It's really rather scary!
Intelligent Design in schools is more about an avenue for proselytization of other people's children by the fundie right.
I have a solution of a sorts. Those parents who want the most for their children's futures will want their children to have the best and the most current knowledge of math and science for the best jobs and careers, and they will want their children to go to the best schools.
You see, evolution is the cornerstone of biology. Creationism saddles and distorts the science of biological development and the flow of genetic changes in the face of time and circumstance. Creationism will not help in any discovery of stem cells research, or the re-building of neural tissue or congenital diseases or Lupus or.....???? The future of medicine, biology, botany and interestingly enough, plasma physics, is understanding how nuclear and mitochondrial DNA and the proteins that come from these dynamic molecules work and change.
If the schools, that require only Creationism be taught, are told that their children do not have the required background and test scores in evolution and the genetics that comes from that biological science, then they will not be admitted to the best colleges (Harvard, Caltech, etc..). This will change a number of people to re-think what they stuff down their children's necks.... These children will also be barred from other nation's colleges if they are taught Creationism. It's a sad end to the economy of this part of the country (Texas, etc.) but it is their choice and as parents to do stupid things to their children.
In light of sciences findings a literal interpetation of Genesis as taking place in 7 days each with 24 hours is just goofy.
And yes I am a Christian.
Pete @ 5:
No comment.
Rusty Shackleford @ 52:
The idea of "intelligent design" encompasses more than just evolution. It also concerns itself with the origins and structure of the universe. Thanks for not making any insinuations.
Pete @ 63:
Of course it does - it is religion.
What a bunch of fucktard assholes. All republicans are just plain stupid. EVERY LAST ONE!!!!!! We should all show these bible thumping retards a thing or two. We need to do something that will catch their eye. I think everyone in every city should grab something flammable, like wood, whatever works. Then go to every religious persons home and put this wood in their lawn. Pile it high or craft some sort of structure. Actually make it a cross since thats what those assholes worship. Then set this structure on fire right in front of them. That will show them. We can instill fear in their hearts by doing this! Then we will have our way.
Pete @ 56:
Ok, here is the deal.
If you believe in "Inteligent Design" then you are at the intersection of Politics, Religion and Stupidity.
The diagram does not state the believing in God makes you stupid or political.
Do you believe in Inteligent Design?
Chris H. @ 53:
That may be the case with the students but what I was refering to is the removal of a science administrator that does not a certain religious view that those above her want taught. You can be sure that the Mullahs in Iran make sure that all teachers and administrators that do not share their religious views are equally removed or fired.
Pete @ 56:
You certainly do have the right to your opinion.It seems to me that most of the comments on this thread are taking a stand against malicious behavior ie.,firing someone who makes light of a stupid,unfounded theory,intelligent design.
If one of those ID infected assholes came and knocked on my door I wouldn't laugh. I'd kick the shit out of it all the way off my property.
Someday we are going to have to have another civil war with these retreads and it ain't a goin' ta be pretty. But as one old lady once said, "Fuck, what else do I have to lose?"
Come to think of it, that was me.
The diagram shows nicely how "Intelligent Design" results from the convergence of stupidity, religion, and politics. Excellent.
Eugenie Scott for preznit!
Remind me again why we need texas? What a fucking disgrace.
Darrell Kern @ 428:
Easy now...not all southerners suck dude. not all southerners are stupid either. ignorance is unfortunately quite widespread throughout this country.
Darrell Kern @ 428:
George Bush comes from Connecticut.
If we could send the Yankees back home, Texas would be a nice place again.
And I've heard talk of some New Englanders pushing for secession
Uh...no. That's not what the Catholic Church teaches at all. It's just the bishops, cardinals and Pope WISH they were worshipped as Gods.
Questioning intelligent design in Texas and ending up fired?? Hmmm, frankly given the facts as I presently understand them, I question the intelligence in general of the people who would fire Ms. Comer over her all to logical reaction to this on-going ham-handed attempt at religous brain-washing of children in the face of all scientific fact. I'm sure Texas has a lot of fine people, they just don't appear to be in charge of anything or have any influence to effect needed changes for the better down there. The same goofy shit has happened in Ohio though, possibly not to as large a degree as Texas... Still, it's there and I can't figure out how normal intelligent people put up with these religous wack jobs taking control and shoving their dogma down everyone else throats. Just gives religion as an institution a bad reputation, and historically, that rep was already pretty shaky really. Guess that's why I am still in California. I just wouldn't be able to put up with that shit in Ohio, or anywhere else it's festering......JD
God cannot be pigeon-holed into science. The bible says God will not proove himself, you must have faith. Science requires fact and proof, therefore you cannot inject God into science, because you can't proove His existence. And Genesis doesn't negate evolution. The bible was written long ago, before many scientific discoveries. Did your parents tell you all about sex, penises and vaginas, eggs and sperm when you were four years old and asked where babies come from? Propably not. So if the bible gives us Adam and Eve as a simplification, is that so unbelievable if you're a Christian? People have forgotten the purpose of the bible is to teach us how to live our lives and please God, it's not to teach us science or even history. God may be the force behind evolution, but it can never be proven scientifically, and to attempt to do it is to negate faith.
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