so basically they are Friedmaniacs . . .
and this is news?

I cannot even begin to imagine what "Walmart Middle School" would teach to it's students.

I just watched Katie Couric interview the POTUS candidates, well except for Ron Paul and Dennis Kuccinich, and it is the weirdest thing I have ever seen because all of the democrats and republicans say that Iran is the most dangerous nation in the world because they have nookular weapons and want to destroy Israel. Uh am I missing something? Nookular WMD? They all say that Iran has destablized the middle east? Uh what about the United States in America's so called Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to look for Osama Bin Laden and WMDS? This is really insane? BTW the Iran Prez said Israel and the USA would wipe themselves off the map through their own hubris and hypocrisy??? The dark cloud of cognitive dissonance hangs heavy over this US Homeland! USA! USA! USA!

Hey- it worked great in Iraq and New Orleans, right?

"Is our children learning?"

Vouchers need to be done away with. They were sold to the public as a tool for lower income americans to have the option of sending their kids to private school like the rich folks do (presumably to get a better education).

I said at the time that it just won't work that way and I stick by my opinion.
First, the amount of money a child gets is not enough to afford the private schools the rich kids go to. But it is a nice little refund to the parents of those rich kids, money that should go to public schools.
Second, it's a way to funnel money into church-based schools.
Third, the worst use of vouchers is homeschooling which, in my opinion, should be abolished except in special cases such as a medical need.

GMFORD @ 12:

Vouchers need to be done away with. They were sold to the public as a tool for lower income americans to have the option of sending their kids to private school like the rich folks do (presumably to get a better education).

Third, the worst use of vouchers is homeschooling which, in my opinion, should be abolished except in special cases such as a medical need.

Yea, homeschooling is for right wing Christian nut cases or loony people on the far left that want to abolish capitalism. Normal people don't really home school. Let's do away with it because it is damn near child abuse. Let these kids out to see the world. Let them develop away from mommy. Let them have new experiences. I never understand why Republicans supported home schooling until I saw that jesus movie Pelosi's daughter made - these people are nuts.

Privatization worked wonders in fucking up the UK! Piss off, conservatives.

You want to improve education? You rethug bad asses believe in competition? Great. It's simple. Pay teachers more and you will get hoards of people who are smart as whips trying to get in to teach. The crappy ones will drown in the competition. By the way, same goes for nursing...

AJ @ 1:

Is that their answer for everything? If they dont believe in goverment, then why the hell do they run for office?

Excellent question. I've never seen a group that hates government more--yet they're all fighting to be a part of that same "evil mess."

Here's one for the conservative lurkers (you know you're out there)

a story on CNN.com:
A Muslim man jumped to the aid of three Jewish subway riders after they were attacked by a group of young people who objected to one of the Jews saying "Happy Hanukkah," a spokeswoman for the three said Wednesday.

So the next time you knuckleheads think it's OK to torture someone because the are Muslim, or Arab, or whatever...just remember that people are people...some of us are good, some of us are bad...you unfortunately are retarded.

Jo @ 19:

Privatize the govmint and put the corporations on welfare. That's the American way!

No shit! Remember Reagan's BS about the 'welfare mom driving a Cadillac" that was just made up, pulled from Ronny's ass? but Reagan (and all the republicans) have no problem with the welfare CEO flying a corporate jet. that's OK, single mom getting assistance: BAD, corporations who screws people out of their money and then start to go belly up because their crooked practices caught up with them: very good! good? Hell it's the American Way!

God how I hate Republicans

General Jack D. Ripper @ 25:

Didn't see the debate (darn!), but I heard Alan Keyes showed up. What the heck was that idiot doing there?

Making me laugh!

Ron @ 9:

O.T. They found proof that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction.

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/231.html

Yeah, the smoking gun that could come in the form of a wrist rocket or a crossbow. Good thing we invaded, they might have shot out our car windows.

budda @ 11:

This was the scariest part of the debate. I always get nervous when I hear anything about privatizing education or prisons.

Oooh, our prisons are already privatized ... and with the Police Action Against Some Drugs, business is booming! Gotta keep those dangerous pot-heads off the streets, after all.

So what IS the "underlying problem"??? Could it be that the "Average American" doesn't give a shit about education, spends every night glued to the frigging TV, hasn't got the foggiest notion what his kids are doing or even where they are, and transmits this lack of motivation and disrespect directly to all his family? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? This is NOT a problem that can be solved simply by throwing more and more money at the school system. Our schools are literally wallowing in money as compared to the schools of the last century, yet they turn out worse and worse students. I was a teacher myself. I quit because I got fed up trying to teach students who didn't want to learn anything more than what the latest crapola styles and music were, and had parents who were either totally indifferent or who blamed the schools and the teachers for the attitudes of their kids, attitudes that they learned at home.

Why is it that Republicans and their Libertarian cousins are always whining about how CEOs deserve their multi-million dollar paychecks because corporations have to pay that to get the best, but when it comes to attracting capable teachers to the profession to improve education, they can never be paid too little?

Conservatives simply don't like education, especially they fear an educated public which is not as easy to control and keep oppressed. They want an ample supply of cheap, uneducated workers to slave for pennies at their worthless service sector jobs who will be pliant and not ask for their rights, fair wages or opportunity.

They want an uneducated citizenry, that can be easily manipulated into supporting politicians who advocate policies that are harmful to their own economic interests by PR constructs of canned values and celebrity personalities. They want a pliable populace that can be led into endless wars of aggression and imperialism.

The Conservative cause has everything to gain and nothing to lose by dismantling public education.

Privatizing the schools is just another way for them to control the information output.

It's all about power, money and control.
*

LOL! Ronald Reagan sold him that ****! WMDS? LOL!

Ron @ 9:

O.T. They found proof that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction.

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/231.html

I want to find those bad politicians a new line of work. McCain prick
we will have apparthied if we continue with this privatization agenda.

The Truth Hurts @ 20:

AJ @ 1:

Is that their answer for everything? If they dont believe in goverment, then why the hell do they run for office?

Excellent question. I've never seen a group that hates government more--yet they're all fighting to be a part of that same "evil mess."

OK. Now how do we get it in as a debate question?? Tell the "host" to ask it right after a good government-bashing session from the Repigs.

Right privatize the schools. Then we'll have to buy Education Insurance.

So how much money goes to each child on average? What could we buy with that at home?

I don't see why my hard earned money should be taken from me to educate monkeys or Negroes because that will keep them from knowing and accepting their place in the Great Chain of Being.

#34 Snowball

They want an uneducated citizenry, that can be easily manipulated into supporting politicians who advocate policies that are harmful to their own economic interests by PR constructs of canned values and celebrity personalities. They want a pliable populace that can be led into endless wars of aggression and imperialism.

They have that now with public school. Tell me you can see that?!?

In 1776 there were no public schools and the greatest experiment in liberty was inaugurated. If our public school educated populace had to replicate this moment,the results would be the longest Dark Age ever.

Jo @ 49:

WTF?

you need to install a sarcasm detector.

In the recently published PISA survey(PDF) the US finished 29th in science. If you look at the countries in the top 10, how many do you think have a privatized education system?

Moose @ 54:

In the recently published PISA survey(PDF) the US finished 29th in science. If you look at the countries in the top 10, how many do you think have a privatized education system?

Having an excellent public education system does not negate having an excellent private education system. Both can co-exist.

I find it tiresome how GOPers can with a straight face run for office, mess the whole system up to a point it is broken beyond repair, and then claim how the best solution is to privatize what they just broke. And, surprise, surprise... usually these Nimrods who broke the system are the ones behind the private alternative.

Right wingers are the worst kind of leeches on society, because they are part of the infection and then want to sell us the cure. Scumbags of the worst kind these peddlers of shit all are....

Well, ask yourself this: Are children better or worse educated since the creation of of the Department of Education?

Test scores higher or lower? Better literacy? Math?

You've heard the expression, If it aint broke, don't fix it. But what if is broke, or worse, was a lemon right from the start? Maybe we should just get rid of it.

King of Kings @ 50:

#34 Snowball

They want an uneducated citizenry, that can be easily manipulated into supporting politicians who advocate policies that are harmful to their own economic interests by PR constructs of canned values and celebrity personalities. They want a pliable populace that can be led into endless wars of aggression and imperialism.

They have that now with public school. Tell me you can see that?!?

In 1776 there were no public schools and the greatest experiment in liberty was inaugurated. If our public school educated populace had to replicate this moment,the results would be the longest Dark Age ever.

Yeah, well - the Founding Fathers (and the rich) had private tutors.

Pound Foolish @ 58:

Well, ask yourself this: Are children better or worse educated since the creation of of the Department of Education?

Test scores higher or lower? Better literacy? Math?

You've heard the expression, If it aint broke, don't fix it. But what if is broke, or worse, was a lemon right from the start? Maybe we should just get rid of it.

Well, I DO know that the DOE is the smallest cabinet-level department. Most decisions concerning education are still regulated to the states and local communities also.

Test scores have been declining since 1965, so you can't blame it all on the DOE. There are other factors here, but I assume it would be racially insensitive to bring them up.

all of my friends send their children to religious schools...my sister does too

my 5 year old niece and my 6 year old nephew, cannot read at grade level...this despite the fact that i go over 3 times a week to read with them

when i was 6 and in public school, i was already a voracious reader

this horshite that private schools are always better is bullshit

fact remains...unless parents are strongly involved with their kids education and care about their kids education...they wont get educated

oh, and someone needs to explain to the wingnuts...if you make vouchers, all private schools will do is increase tuition

Pound Foolish @ 58:

Well, ask yourself this: Are children better or worse educated since the creation of of the Department of Education?

Test scores higher or lower? Better literacy? Math?

You've heard the expression, If it aint broke, don't fix it. But what if is broke, or worse, was a lemon right from the start? Maybe we should just get rid of it.

the dept of education is a waste....doesnt mean that vouchers work

for those that are new here, "choice" is code for "privatize"

General Jack D. Ripper @ 25:

Didn't see the debate (darn!), but I heard Alan Keyes showed up. What the heck was that idiot doing there?

Someone had to fill the quota for persons of color at the debate. ;-)

More educational than public schools, is throwing your kid out of the house at the age of five, with a knife, a book of matches, a compass (OK, a stun-gun, a laser, and a GPS), and if he finds his way home in 10 to 12 years, he'll be educated.

Just remember, folks, Keep the Faith.

No matter how badly we adults screw-up the educational system,

'Children does learn'.

Surprise, Surprise.

Good thing they don't believe in science -- which I assume includes social science. It is my understanding that the performance of charter schools in our state has consistently averaged below "real" public school averages year in and year out. Could be Jesus' will, could be that charter schools turn a profit and consistently short the kids on things like materials and the teachers they can hire at the salary.

these Chicago School cultists would privatize their own family to the highest bidder

home-schooling?

The guy that just shot up all those churches in Colorado was home schooled. Guns don't kill people, home schooled people do!

The truth is that America is falling behind in education. Kids are not being taught to think. They are being taught to take a test. Sure test scores are improving, but who cares? It does not gauge the kids ability later in life to succeed. I am generalising here, but I see the kids coming out of college as having no ability to think critically or initiative and can't think outside of the box. And I am in the engineering consulting buisness. It is very frustrating when I have to hand hold an engineering graduate in the even the easiest tasks. It is also becoming harder to find good candidates.

I contend that our education system is a failure. We base the school year on an agriculture system. The countries leading the world have longer school years. Why are we taking a 19th century system and using it in the 21st century? Our system does not have the ability to adapt to the needs of our knowledge based economy. Colleges churn out stupid people whose jobs can easily be done by someone with lower pay IN India. We also have to import smart people FROM India because we have too many stupid people here.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338

Mick @ 79:

I HATE these neocon asswipes but public schools are bad in America.
If the parents had the choice of how or where their kids go to school it would be a better system. For example, If my son has a mechanical aptitude and your daughter is musically gifted, wouldn't it be nice to have a choice as to where they could both go to become proficiant in their strongest subjects? Wouldn't the teachers try harder to get through to those tough students that fall behind if they knew that they were getting paid based on results? (or lose their jobs based on it as well?)
I beleive in Unions but there should be a BALANCE in power between employee and employer. Schools just take money without having to earn it and the teacher's unions are just as greedy as a neocon congressman.
If you pay school taxes you should have a decision on what your child learns and where they learn it.
Sorry, but they almost have this one right.

You are an idiot, and you don't know what the fuck your talking about.

Teachers are as greedy as neocon congressmen? Eat shit and die you lying bastard. Do you even know anyone in the profession? Do you even know anything about education, other than they fact that you always felt stupid and insecure in school.

I have family members in the educational field. They all have multiple graduate degrees, and in the 20 plus years they have been in education, they have averaged a 0.95% raise a year. That's less than 1% a year, (since you probably can't figure that out), and that includes the 90's when the economy was booming!

Then, they get the added bonus of listening to idiot politicians and morons like you tell them how stupid and inept they are every day of the year.

Frankly, I don't know how they put up wth all the B.S. for the money they get. Dispite all the garbage they put-up with, they are the most dedicated people I know. And they work their ass-off everyday because they are dedicated to their students, not because they might get a "bonus".

Project your own shallow transparent greed onto yourself-jackass!

Here are some more facts to rap your little brain around. First of all, if the asshole politicians would leave the schools alone, many schools in this country do, and will continue to excel (beyond where they are now). No child left behind actually saddles many schools with idiotic government mandates: rules that were put in place for the sole purpose of undermining public education. Instad of just focusing on schools that are having problems, repukes have to try an fuck-up all the good schools too, so they can tell idiots like you that the entire system needs scrapped.

What the GOP has done to fool dupes like you, is to base everything on a test. Then compare those test results with other countries that do not have universal education. That's right dumb-ass, the U.S. is the only country in the world that forces everyone to be educated and tested with a college prep curriculum.

So, even though many kids today are recieving the best public education ever given, they get no credit for it! Why? Because their scores are averaged in with areas where socio-economic standards of living produce low test scores, giving the "overall" educational system a bad reputation. All this is done for the sole purpose of republicans giving themselves tax-cuts, and fooling ignorant bastards like yourself.

Mark Twain had a comment that would aptly apply to someone like you: "It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid, than to open it and remove all doubt".

Yeah troll, your pro union allright.

So they want to put education out of affordability as they have done with Health Care?

Private schools will have the accountability of Blackwater employees murdering Iraqi's for no reason other than they can.

These guys are out to destroy public education. They literally want to privatize everything. I can't encourage people strongly enough to read Naomi Klein's book, The Shock Doctrine. She really spells it out quite well.

Everything is for sale in the repug party.

They mess things up by passing indecent laws and regulations, then calling foul when things don't work (a C&L poster got it right.)

Privatization only makes chimpy's buddies richer and completely makes the curriculum repug like, just as he did to the AGs' offices.

snitramc @ 80:

home-schooling?

The guy that just shot up all those churches in Colorado was home schooled. Guns don't kill people, home schooled people do!

And the kids shooting up schools were educated where? In public schools. So what does that mean? Nothing. Just like the guy getting homeschooled killing people has nothing to do with him being home schooled.

I am a true blue progressive. Barack Obama is my guy. There is only one issue that I disagree on. That of Homeschooling. Having spent years of tumultuous heart wrenching wrestling with the public school system whose stance was to keep trying to push me to medicate my child, I have finally taken the plunge and am homeschooling my child. Homeschooling is the best alternative for the ADD child because the abuse from other students and teachers are completely taken out of the picture. They can concentrate on schoolwork because home has very little distraction. Socialization happens when they can run free in Park District or Y programs. Since the public school listed my son as "disabled" he believed it also. It took many years to undo the damage and prove to him he has an above average IQ.
Homeschooling parents live in fear. Many have joined a legal defense fund to protect them. The public schools can show up at your door, demand to be let in and see your curicculum. They can even note how clean your house is. God forbid you create a customized learning plan for the special needs of your child, because the state apparently knows best in their mind. I have not experienced this personally but have known people who have.
It is a mistake to assume all homeschoolers are doing so for religious reasons. With the rise of misdiagnosed ADD and medication rates soaring due to school coersion, it is no wonder there is an upresidented surge on secular homeschooling.
I wish the dem candidates focusing on education will uphold the rights of parents who are ultimately responsible for their children's education. Homeschooling should be a right all parents should have without fear from the government invading their privacy and telling them how to do it.

How would Democrats solve the problem of tenured union teachers who don't give a crap and don't do their job because they can't be fired?

This problem is based in public schools and unions, 2 areas were Democrats are strong.

What can be done about this?

I see what the teachers make in my district and it makes me sick (they make a ton and many of them totally suck).

I don't have a proposed solution myself, but I would be interested to hear any suggestions.

MargeAggedon @ 4:

I cannot even begin to imagine what "Walmart Middle School" would teach to it's students.

Jolly good one.

How about sponsors giving more resources and money to one school while another school suffers (more than what's happening now.)

Chris May @ 96:

How would Democrats solve the problem of tenured union teachers who don't give a crap and don't do their job because they can't be fired?

This problem is based in public schools and unions, 2 areas were Democrats are strong.

What can be done about this?

I see what the teachers make in my district and it makes me sick (they make a ton and many of them totally suck).

I don't have a proposed solution myself, but I would be interested to hear any suggestions.

Serving as a teacher myself, I look around in the school I'm at and I can say that we don't have a single teacher like that. Everytime our union proposes a solution to education that would help (say, take a look at other countries like Singapore who are #1 in the world in Math and use their methods) we're met with opposition. There are a few teachers who suck. You will have that in any job, not just teaching. The problem isn't public education, it's the fact that they want public education to make a kid reading below grade level a rocket scientist by 10th grade. We need a lot more hands-on vocational schools in my opinion. Kids shouldn't graduate with just a diploma. They should graduate with some form of specialized job skills or training. Then watch the cost of college tuition drop.