Lawrence O'Donnell blows a gasket
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A few days ago on The McLaughlin Group one of the stranger blow-ups we've seen lately came when O'Donnell began discussing Mitt Romney's so-called "Faith" speech. Seemingly out of nowhere, O'Donnell launched into a full-scale attack on Mormonism:
O'DONNELL: Here's the problem. He dare not discuss his religion. And he fools people like Pat Buchanan, who should know better. This was the worst speech, the worst political speech, of my lifetime, because this man stood there and said to you, "This is the faith of my fathers." And you and none of these commentators who liked this speech realize that the faith of his father is a racist faith. As of 1978, it was an officially racist faith. And for political convenience, in 1978 it switched and it said, "Okay, black people can be in this church."
He believes -- if he believes the faith of his fathers that black people are black because in heaven they turned away from God in this demented Scientology-like notion of what was going on in heaven before the creation of the earth --
BUCHANAN: Are you saying that his Mormonism disqualifies him from being president of the United States?
O'DONNELL: I'm saying he's got to answer -- when he was 30 years old --
BUCHANAN: He does not have to answer.
O'DONNELL: -- and he firmly believed in the faith of his father that black people are inferior, when did he change his mind? Did the religion have to tell him to change his mind? And when he talks about the faith of his father, how about the faith of his great- grandfather, who had five wives?
BUCHANAN: Well, look, my great-grandfather had slaves, and I don't believe in slavery.
Blacks were allowed into the LDS almost immediately, and briefly held the priesthood.
Then in 1978 the priesthood was restored to them permanently.
In between times they were members, but like women had little say.
Women still have little say.
Don't care for the Mormons eh Larry?
I don't see anything wrong with Lawrence's passion. I'd like to see some more passion out of our political journalists and leaders during this time of universal deceit and war.
I think Mitt can give all the speeches he wants and it won't change the simple fact... He is wrong on Iraq. 70%+ want us out, I think its tome to do some representing.
Ooh ooh me first! Go LOD!!!
Orangutan. @ 3:
It just needs to passion pointed in the right directions.
I'm not sure this rant by O'Donnell qualifies.
Oh well, still, go LOD!!!
I think the point was missed entirely. Mitt came forward to ask for tolerance of his religion, baggage and all, and then called "secularism" a religion and declared it was evil and intolerable. Mitt wins the '08 election cycle award for Largest Hypocrite imaginable, though Pat Robertson has had a strong showing.
The station that I watch the McLaughlin Group on didn't show it this week. I wonder if this was the reason I have it on autorecord on my HD Dvr that's why I know it didn't air.
ysbaddaden @ 1:
Well, they are subservient to men ...isn't that what the Huckmeister said.
This is a SNARK, ladies...a SNARK!
"hiding under desk from the incoming handbags and shoes"
Hey, Pat, my great-grandfathers fought against slavery, my great-grandfathers each had 1 wife, my great-grandfathers religion preached, all men and women are equal.
We are in the 21st century after all. Evolution is a wonderful thing.
not only is odonnell spot-on in his passion, he is right in questioning mitt's sincerity and true beliefs.
Larry, could have chosen a better shortcoming of the Mormon church to run with here. Hell, racism is present in religions because it is present in all people.
I think what he was getting at was that the Mittster pretty much dodged really talking about his religion and was trying to use racism as an example. There are plenty of surreal beliefs in Mormonism and the other flavors of Christianity as well.
We should stop coddling religion and shine some light on the hypocrisy. Larry did it exceedingly poorly.
Hell, pointing out that Mormonism is racist is a plus for Buchanan anyway, what was Larry not thinking?
I know this is OT, but important.
U.S. says homegrown attack poses biggest risk
The United States faces a heightened threat of terrorist attack "for the foreseeable future" but any attack will likely be homegrown, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said on Wednesday.
Don't look for this administration leaving office gracefully, they will probably do a Giulianni and say they need to stay in office for the safety of the country.
Homegrown my ass ... more like Admin-Grown.
SOOOOOO?!? What's the problem?
Let's say some whackjob from Westboro Baptist Church (the one's who picket all the soldier funerals) were to run for President...
The beliefs of that church would be VERY MUCH the point of the debate.
As I have said elsewhere, Mormonism is no more or less loony than any of the other major superstitions that pass for religion.
Over three thousand years of belief, not a shred of rational evidence.
Pax, Steve
I don't see anything wrong with what O'Donnell said, either. This is a very, very valid concern to have regarding someone who's running for President: is he or is he not racist? And for all of those other folks to defend him simply because he "has faith" is ridiculous; having faith doesn't make a good leader (as countless leaders have shown throughout history, up to and including today), and in fact that sort of religious litmus test is expressly proscribed by the Constitution itself in Article VI.
I don't care if Mitt Box is a Mormon, would you care if he was KKK. I know he thinks Guantanamo Bay Cuba Prison Camp should be doubled in size or something. Awful. I truly hope Ron Paul ends up representing the Republican values come 08. And I'd like Barack Obama to win the presidency. Peace.
it must be mentioned, the 'freedom requires religion' speech is--not only ahistorical and glaringly inaccurate--an afront to American values and tradition.
mitt, in the words of dick cheney: fuck off.
More folks on the tee-vee need to blow gaskets like this.
Spend my spare time unbrain-washing the LDS out here in Mesa...
It is one of the strangest cults we have, and should be treated so.
If O'Donnell had been just a little better in explaining his criticism, then I'd say this was a good moment. Namely, if he mentioned Mitt's talk about secularism being an evil religion. Then we would understand this moment of passion.
His words about Joe Smith were dead-on correct.
Religion should not be an issue in politics. Politicians should not bring it up, and they should not be asked about it.
But Romney made it an issue - therefore it's not only fair game, it's NECESSARY that his religious attitudes be examined and criticized where proper.
You can toss religion into the race in order to win cheap brownie points and then claim its hands-off for discussion.
Now we just need to see the rest of the religion-based candidates' beliefs get questioned similarly. But if they don't run on religion, then its hands off.
Way to go O'Donnell pop that slimey jerk in the mouth, he is as fake as that plastic hair.
Mitt does have to answer, if he in fact supports (or supported) a racist organization... but Buchanan was right about slavery... that's the one and only time you'll see me saying he's right!
That's a great video clip. Now when are others in the media going to start asking the tough questions to religious bigots who justify rape, racism and homophobia by claiming these oppose the tenets of Christianity?
Unlike Huckabee, NO christian would pardon a rapist - especially after hearing from his victims.
Oh yes you can see it out in traffic.
Everyone hates everyone.
(_(_) @ 11:
What's your point? Are you judging people based on what their great-grandfathers believed?
On one hand, LOD's criticism seems fair-- mormonism officially sanctioned racism up until the 70s when there was one of these convenient "revelations" that happened to line up with new civil rights laws (just like they reversed on bigamy conveniently when they wanted to become a state). At the same time, I wish people would be more critical and skeptical of ALL religions rather than blindly tolerant of all faiths because as someone above said, they're all pretty loony.
I guess if you're looking for a thread tying Romney to his religion, it's that both seem to cave and reverse their position when politically convenient...
B
BUCHANAN: Well, look, my great-grandfather had slaves, and I don’t believe in slavery.
Do you own a plantation, Pat?
I think the point your co-panelist is getting at is that Romney is a practising Mormon. Religious beliefs and practices compared to slavery=apples compared to anything that is not an apple.
John F. Kennedy's Speech on Secret Societies - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QheIE_kQrQ
This is apparently from a different era..!!
Moe Zilla @ 14:
No,No, No. Any home grown attack will be caused by the Liberal Media , just ask Tony Perkins.
Bill Norton @ 27:
Pat Buchanan was...
Pat's forefathers owned enslaved Africans, and Pat himself is a bigot who believes that non-white people don't know how to, or would not be able to, run a democracy.
Gee, how fitting then that the racism of Mormonism is called into question!!
Pat, your great-grandfather isn't running for president. Is reality that difficult of a concept for reich-wingers?
Religion is so fucking stupid.
Pat Buchanan (Jesus, does an hour ever go by on MSNBC without Asshat Buchanan being on?!?), as usual, makes a disingenuous point.
If Pat Buchanan had been a slave-holder until 1978, then maybe it'd be a valid comparison. But O'Donnell is right on the money here. If you're 30 years old, and you belong to a sect whose leaders officially consider black people to be of an inferior species, that's pretty damning. Mitt belonged to an officially racist organization -- the fact that it was a Church is more or less irrelevant -- and he needs to do what Democrats are always forced to do -- distance himself from that history and denounce it.
ditto #35
BUCHANAN: Well, look, my great-grandfather had slaves, and I don’t believe in slavery.
Clever use of words. He doesn't believe in it because it no longer really exists in America. Not so much because he thinks it was a bad thing. You bet your sweet waspy ass that Patty would have a whole stable of slaves if it helped his profit margin.
This from a man who would ship all the illegal immigrants back to Mexico - I presume in shipping containers like so much human chattle.
If I could ask Mitt a question, it would be:
You seem to believe that all religions are equal and should be equally respected. Does this mean you find Satan Worship to be a religion which should get equal respect to mormonism? If not, why?
Go O'Donnell. He's just saying how fucking hypocritical Romney is.
werenotgonnatakeit @ 35:
Believing in any form of superstition is what's stupid.
I've always viewed The McLaughlin Group as a bunch of serious nut cases trying to cover to many topics on a very tight schedule.
(Nervous Laugh)
Yeah, okay Larry, nice going calling the Mormon out for some pretty offensive practices, but where was this rant when it was revealed that Huckabee asked the parole board to go easy on a brutal rapist? Why aren't you screaming that Huckabee, who also said that women should submit to their husbands, is a misogynist? You're taking the easier path by picking on the Mormon. The evangelical Christian is no better.
The problem with mixing religion and politics is...they don't mix.
I don't have anything against Mormonism but it does seem rather cultish, anti - black and demeaning to women. Oh, erm - am I talking about mormonism or Protestantsism?
Keeping people poor and uneducated is a form of slavery.
craig @ 22:
Right on, Craig. Romney brought this on himself. I think O'Donnell makes a completely valid point here.
In other news, I'm shocked to hear that Pat Buchanan isn't in favor of slavery.
Religious wars in the United States. Sheesh who would have ever seen that coming.
We live in dangerous times.
If Willard intends to goven based on his faith, then damn straight I have a right, no, an obligation, to question him as to EXACTLY what that faith is about. Anyway, that 'freedom requires religion' remark ought to eliminate him from contention for ANY elected office.
I don't want my politicians to be religious and I don't want my religious leaders to be politicians. Mixing the two is not only counter-productive, but it's a volatile cocktail that is self-destructive.
liberalista @ 43:
The Disciple of Ann Rand has spoken!!!!!
The Roots of the Mortgage Crisis
By Alan Greenspan
WSJ
On Aug. 9, 2007, and the days immediately following, financial markets in much of the world seized up. Virtually overnight the seemingly insatiable desire for financial risk came to an abrupt halt as the price of risk unexpectedly surged. Interest rates on a wide range of asset classes, especially interbank lending, asset-backed commercial paper and junk bonds, rose sharply relative to riskless U.S. Treasury securities. Over the past five years, risk had become increasingly underpriced as market euphoria, fostered by an unprecedented global growth rate, gained cumulative traction.
The crisis was thus an accident waiting to happen.
ray @ 2:
I believe that Larry's beef is more a statement against racism. Yes, clearly, he has no love lost on the LDS. This is what the Repugs reap for toying with the 6th ammendment of that rag formerly known as the U.S. Constitution; a religious test for serving. And today comes the right Reverend Huck suggesting that mormons believe that Jeebus is Satan's brother. On election eve, look for the white smoke coming from the W. H. chimney. Yes folks, we have a President.
Perhaps he went extra heavy on the hair dye that day?
There is no way to introduce religion into the political discourse, and not have discourse on religion. This will inevitably bog down the process as various religious leaders scramble for their bibles to quibble over archane references to sheepherders, adulterers, ect. turning congress into a pulpit of religious argument. I dare say they brought this on themselves.
Dr. Matt @ 49:
Yeah, and I don't want it to be cold outside......but 'tis the season!
Button up your coats.
AMEN O'DONNELL! I too used to be a member of the LDS, when I was a little kid. I remember my guardian at the time (who joined me into that church) professing to me how the blacks were a CURSED RACE and that they could NOT belong to the priesthood as I was about to become a member of. My best friend was this black kid who I was also chastised for bringing into our home. The LDS are a strange bunch of folks... but they are cordial if you are white.
Mike Huckabee said he believes Adam and Eve were real people. Why is it ok to mock Kucinich for believing in UFOs but not mock Huckabee for his whacky beliefs?
It's about time some of these journalists stand up to this religious nonsense coming from the republican camp. Huckabee, Romney, Guliani - They're all various shades of the same neo-con cyborg. The fact that Pat Buchanan is defending this stuff should tell you something right away.
As a Jack Mormon I can only say...Go Larry, Go!
In 74-75 I worked with a Mormon at a nursery I worked at in Eureka, CA. I'm black and this person seemed accepting of me but was not apologetic about the belief. I left Eureka in 75 and remember the change in policy.
Isn't it time for the U.S. to grw up and not elect Presidents who have invisible imaginary friends. Why is having ludicrous beliefs based on no evidence a virtue? Give me an intelligent, honest atheist who thinks this world is all we have and is trying to make it as good as possible. Not someone who thinks all will be better in the next life and this one is just a test run.
Faith-niks will always circle the wagons around each other. After all, all of their beliefs are absurd so they really dont want that door to be opened. Moroni giving golden tablets to the huckster Joe Smith, Black people being inferior, Jews being superior, Jesus coming back, water to wine.... thats one slippery slope of bullshit to be examining.
What a mess! I can't believe that we have finally done what our forefathers warned against, mixing politics and religion.
jimijazz @ 58:
Pat is simply adhering to Ronald Reagan's 11th Commandment.
BUCHANAN: Well, look, my great-grandfather had slaves, and I don’t believe in slavery.
Ah, yes, the Buchanan clan has made remarkable strides. Perhaps his great-grandchildren will one day repudiate segregation.
Bringing Mormon beliefs and practices into the light of public scrutiny isn't religious intolerance, it's pragmatism and honesty. My only question is, why isn't the same thing being done to Evangelical Christianity? Does anyone know why the Southern Baptists split from the other Baptists? Because "mainstream" Baptism condemned slavery, and the Southern Baptists argued that the Bible supported it - and they wanted their ministers (yes, Christian ministers) to be able to own slaves. Don't believe me? Look it up.
Saying that Mormonism (or Scientology, or Southern Baptism, or Catholicism, or Sunni Islam, etc etc etc etc) teaches intolerance is simply stating the facts. I grew up on the Utah border, and have had plenty of friends and acquaintances who were Mormons. Those that weren't bigots and chauvinists aren't Mormons anymore, because they couldn't stomach the teachings of their church.
I don't want any kind of religious fanatic in a position of power, period. We've already seen what that can do, and it ain't pretty.
Pat doesn't believe in slavery..of course not! He believes in illegal immigrants and underpaid Americans working for SLAVE WAGES, though! Just like most of Big Business. The definition may have changed but the intent is still the same. And as harsh as it sounds, we are owned by someone.
Pat did not have a point. Pat would have had a point if his immediate family, including himself, owned slaves.
I'll profess my ignorance at the inner workings and policies of the LDSs, but if Mitt was a member of the church when it had the policy/teachings towards African-Americans that is reported, then hell yes he has to explain his membership in that group. Pat does not have to explain/account for his great-grandpappy's owning of slaves. Personal responsibility and accountability vs. sins of the father. World of difference.
BTW, I've known many folks who have abandoned the church of their "fathers" because they had moral issues with the teachings. I guess it is too much to expect from our politicians.
#61
Michael Says:
I couldn't agree more. I can't wait until the day where an atheist is elected President in America. Have people had enough of the religious nonsense yet?
O'Donnell is a warped man. He actually defended dogfighting in the aftermath of the Michael Vick indictment.
That said, I'm glad he took Romney -- another religious fanatic -- to task.
Well, I am a black man, and know what he is talking about. I don't condone the general condemnation of any religion or personal beliefs. Yet, if you look in the book of Mormon, it still says that blacks are dark because they are descendants of Canaan (Wikipedia - Curse of Ham). The Mormon church now allow blacks to be ordained into the priesthood, but the Book of Mormon still has officially has racist doctrine.
Whatever. If the Mormon church is so bad, why would Eldridge Cleaver, the most famous member of the "Black Panthers" became a Black Mormon later in life? I think the Nation of Islam's 'white devil alien malarkey' is much worse than the Book of Mormon's 'Curse of Ham'.
Well, George Bush's grandfather was a Nazi sympathizer, does that mean he's a Nazi sympa,..ergh,..uh,..nevermind.
I too was disappointed by Mitt's "Mormons are Okay" speech. I was really hoping he was going to go into the part about the book of Mormon and the buried golden tablets dug up by Joe Smith after the angel Moroni pointed them out, and how he miraculously was able to translate ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs from the tablets into English and thus explain the lost tribe of Israel and the "new gospel" of Jesus Christ. I really wanted to know more about the living apostles and how they're chosen and which of my 5 wives will get to keep me in whatever level of heaven I end up in, assuming I wear my majic underwear each day, but all he said was "I believe in Jesus too."
Damn,...
Its not a left field line of questioning for a mormon. Just as a scientologist candidate might be required to register a comment or two about the evil emperor xenu and what policy the US government would take towards him. Shoot first? Smoke em out? We'd like to know beforehand.
simplicio @ 57:
Cuz they were...Duh!!
And now you can be too.
Thank You Lawrence!
As a "white guy" it does my heart good to see another "white guy" speaking out strongly against racism. And I want to know!
Answer the question MITT!
O’DONNELL: I’m saying he’s got to answer — when he was 30 years old and he firmly believed in the faith of his father that black people are inferior, when did he change his mind? Did the religion have to tell him to change his mind? And when he talks about the faith of his father, how about the faith of his great- grandfather, who had five wives?
youngwizdom @ 71:
Yeah...How bout this...Romney/Cleaver 2008!!! I like the siound of that.
Lawrence O'Donnell then went on Hugh Hewitt's show after his meltdown. Hewitt asked him why he doesn't say the same things about Mohammed as he just did about Joseph Smith. His bold reply:
Lawrence O'Donnel, Unplugged
HH: Would you say the same things about Mohammed as you just said about Joseph Smith?
LO’D: Oh, well, I’m afraid of what the…that’s where I’m really afraid. I would like to criticize Islam much more than I do publicly, but I’m afraid for my life if I do.
HH: Well, that’s candid.
LO’D: Mormons are the nicest people in the world. They’re not going to ever…
HH: So you can be bigoted towards Mormons, because they’ll just send you a strudel.
LO’D: They’ll never take a shot at me. Those other people, I’m not going to say a word about them.
HH: They’ll send you a strudel. The Mormons will bake you a cake and be nice to you.
LO’D: I agree.
HH: Lawrence O’Donnell, I appreciate your candor
simplicio @ 69:
Hear, hear!
Personally, I'm no atheist (the assertion that "there is no god" is just as empirically insupportable as the assertion that "Jesus is Lord" or "there is no god but Allah"), but I'd prefer someone who didn't positively believe in things that, by definition, can't be proven. I don't want a religious nutjob in the White House any more than I want a five-year-old who still believes in Santa and the Easter Bunny.
I'm not refusing to vote for Mitt because he's a mormon. I'm refusing to vote for Mitt because he's an a**hole.
If Pat Buchanan came out and said that he supported the American values of his grandfather then he SHOULD answer to the question of owning slaves. But, he would probably have a good answer for it. Such as returning to those values doesn't mean returning to all those values.
Mitt is justifying his religion by saying it is the religion of his fathers, and he's saying that to elevate himself above other candidates. If he wants to do that then he very well should answer for the baggage he's carrying along with it. LOD isn't saying Mitt should be permanently marked with all the baggage that comes with the Mormon religion. LOD is saying that if Mitt wants to claim higher ground on the basis that he's practicing his father's religion, then he should explain where that baggage is. Cause he is saying, "my faith makes me a better decision maker" and not "my faith is ultimately personal and has little bearing on my policy decisions."
bubba @ 73:
Our policy towards the Emperor Xenu would be that we would do whatever it takes to prevent him from acquiring the knowledge necessary to develop a nuclear weapon. No options would be off the table.
Religion, what a joke. A bronze aged mind virus. I can't believe intelligent people still buy into it.
Hey O'Donnell
Wanna blow my exhaust pipe?
O'Donnell is what you call a loose cannon.
Jim H @ 84:
Kaopectate should fix that right up.
O'Donnell didn't blow a gasket, he's just sick of the contradictions and double talk from Romney. The fact that the other four white people on the panel couldn't see that mormons have a deeply racist history (and please don't b.s. me with "the lord cured them") is no shock. Heaven must be filled these god fearing bigots.
I think LO'D has a valid point. No one has asked which of the several branches of Mormonism the Mitster adheres to. There are several branches, and not all of them subscribe to the equality of all men. Since the whole of the LDS held the view that blacks were 'lesser' in the eyes of the church (with a position comparable to that of women) prior to 1978, it is valid to question the Mitster on this. Did he, prior to the age of thirty one (in 1978) agree with the view of his church that blacks were inferior? Did he change his view in 1978 because the church told him to? If he changed his view BECAUSE the church instructed him to do so, what other positions is he likely to take if the church instructs him to do so?
Exactly, who wants a guy who believes in devils, demons, angels, witches, ghosts, thrones & powers to have his dunegons and dragons loving, cheetos stained fingers on the button? I would think that rational thought would be a requirment for a man with the power to end civilization.
No religious test for office is the law, but religious people need to have their thought processes scrutinized because their beliefs are based on superstitious make believe. The Mormon belief that Native Americans descended from the Jews who supposedly sailed here 2000 years before Columbus is idiotic and has been disproven scientifically by DNA testing. Anyone who believes in virgin births and that people rise from the dead and fly into the sky to live on clouds is goofy. I can never understand why the family values crowd objects to polygamy since many of the characters in the bible had hundreds of wives and concubines to which the invisible cloud being did not object. Guess the bible is not the infallible word of god after all.
Lex Talionis @ 78:
What about the Playboy Bunny?
O'Donnell has some good points - but voiced them in a very vituperative manner. Had he calmly pointed out what Romney was aliening himself with --- it would have been easier to swallow.
I understant that MIT wants to change their name.
ysbaddaden @ 90:
What about the Playboy Bunny?
Oh, I believe in the Playboy Bunny.... she leaves porn under my pillow.
This was not a reasonable flip-out on O'Donnell's part, and it makes Buchanan look like the sane dude. I don't care what religion a candidate is, just so long as he doesn't try and push it on the country (including ANY Christian candidate), and just so long as it doesn't dictate his policy. I could give a rat's ass that Romney is Mormon, or that they did X 30 years ago and only recently switched to Y. Hell if the Mormon church is so bad on the score, the Catholic church ain't much better, because they only caved and "allowed" interracial marriage in 1968. That was only 10 years prior to the Mormons "relaxing" their racist tendencies. I agree, no religious group has ever been 100% innocent on the race issue. I can't honestly hold this against Romney.
I *CAN* however hold his flip-floppiness and generally pathetic and disgusting policy stances against him.
You can't have it both ways.
Either racism is part of religion because it's part of humanity, in which case religion is just another human institution and not worthy of particular deference or respect and MUST be questioned when it codifies our worst traits.
Or religion and faith are transcendent sources of goodness and righteousness which elevates humanity above our petty flaws, in which case there's no excuse for it reflecting our worst traits.
I 't fault the LDS for being racist the same way I fault the United States for being racist.
But at least the United States doesn't claim to be transcendently superior to humanity. And at least we can address racism in the US without invoking mysterious, unprovable, unsubstantiated, but unchallengable "faith."
James @ 4:
I agree. The Moromn thing is among the least of the reasons not to vote for him, though not being inclined to vote for him anyway my opinion should be suspect.
Bubba@88 Where the hell have you been the last seven years? Romney sucks but even he would be an improvement. It hurt to admit that.
BlueIndependent @ 94:
That's just the problem, though ... a person's belief system will ALWAYS influence their policy, that's how belief-systems work. And the entire thrust of Mormonism (and Christianity in general) is that it's a Missionary Religion - it's based around the notion that Good Mormons (and other Christians) MUST push their faith on others.
Maybe LOD was just trying to start a shouting match. That's the customary form of expression on that show.
O'Donnell is correct, y'all should read this
Lex Talionis @ 78:
Love the sentiment of your comment. Just one thing. An atheist is one who lacks belief in any gods, not someone who claims to KNOW that gods don't exist. In afct, your emphasis on empirically supportable assertions suggests that you too are an atheist. The label atheist has been misrepresented by people for a long time. In any case, thanks for your rational response.
In this panel of in-denial group (with the exception, Lawrence); only ONE recognized racist and how it came to be. And had the courage that to put an exclamation point; that it exist.
Yes the point is Racism tends to be heriditary and an the inherent conditioning can not be denied if ONE wants to heal from it. Romey was born out of a racist environment; proven by the sins of his father and the inperfection of his religion.
To deny it and hide it IS actually not getting rid of it; it is merely keeping it in one secret shelf without expiration until the keeper does away and consumes it. The danger is that consumption may surface at the detriment of the public interest (minority public at large).
It is not as simple as SAYING and admitting that racism is wrong. It must display repent through its actual and objective deeds.
So if you want to rid yourself of this curse, accept it....get it out and vent it....consume it before IT consumes YOU.
I'm sorry, O'Donnell nailed it, and Pat Buchanan, in short order.
Mitt's speech was basically saying if he's President, there's no religion that will be formally recognized in his Administration except Mormon. He even said that those who choose not to worship any deity at all, will be SOL.
That is NOT what the Founding Fathers intended. In fact, it was their intent that government have nothing to do with religion, in order to avoid what they left in England; GOVERNMENT-SANCTIONED RELIGION.
That almost toppled the British Monarchy - it sure did enough to render it to where Queen Elizabeth has no real power, but has to defer to the Prime Minister.
Think about that, anyone wanting to go off against O'Donnell. He saw it for Catholicism, the same way I saw Romney's speech against Baptists, Protestants, Episcopalians, Pentacostals, Buddism, Muslim - under his administration; these denominations would be outlawed.
I hope to one day meet Mr. Romney and fall in love - I hope to be one of the First Wives.
...and while we're at it, what's up with these other nitwits?? They believe that there's some invisible magician somewhere off of this planet who can see into their heads! They believe this space man can influence mundane events and can cause hurricanes, yet also cares if we jerk off! These people are fucking looney toons! We can't vote for any of 'em!
miss_kitty @ 32:
No he wasn't. He said, "Well, look, my great-grandfather had slaves, and I don’t believe in slavery." How in the world do you come to your interpretation from that?
kudos to Lawrence. Every commentator was masterbating about Mitt's speech. "he hit it out of the park"-Joe Scar on Mitt
Lex Talionis @ 98:
Well, we've had examples of previous presidents that had a religion and didn't ruin their legacies by foisting it on others. JFK comes to mind.
Oh just you wait. The right-wing would love the rest of the world to believe we were transcendently superior.
Buchanan is definitely carrying water for the religious neo-cons. It's a lot deeper than Reagan's so called 11th commandment. The republicans just can't break away from the religious right. That's a fact.
Mitt's " speech" was a long, boring, condescendingly patronizing "show and tell" into that racist Alice and Wonderland meets Jim Jones cult of his.
I suggest that everyone who is complicat in this toxic atmosphere of racial hatred and demonization of Muslins, AA, and Hispanics to stop and pause..... do you really want to go there?
I will give you a tip from a sister that you can take to the bank: we will not chose Hillary over Barack. Push come to shove we will make that point very clear. Black women will not help Hillary step over Barack Obama to take an unearned seat in the White House. No way.
Typical MR nonsense. A bunch of wags shouting over each other in a PBS sandbox. At the end of the day, their opinions mean nothing... unless you like a little sand in your shorts.
Romney didn't define his Mormonism because he would have been laughed out of the presidential race. They are nutjobs and it IS a cult. I'm not religious so maybe I can see clearer than "the followers". Secret ceremonies and rituals that the non believers aren't allowed to know about is cultish.
Since we are discussing Romney. Why does he say we need to lower taxes, taxes that pay for police, firemen, schools and many other things for all, but the Mormon church members are pressured to give 10% of their earnings to the church to only serve themselves?
Nope. Sorry, watched it again to make sure I was thorough in my own opinion on this. O'Donnell had it wrong, and Buchanan had it right. O'Donnell said Romney had an opportunity to distance himself from the racist past of Mormonism, but would he honestly advocate for every public Christian having to "publicly distance themselves" from slavery, anti-gay sentiment, etc. every time they spoke? Does there have to be this long disclaimer on every speech given by someone with a religion that they don't condone specific acts of their forebears? O'Donnell gave a point up to the wrong side here. Why can't people get this passionate about more pressing concerns like deficit spending, Iraq, etc.? Why waste your (unfortunately) one anger moment on a point you end up looking foolish on anyways? Iarq has no Thomas Jeffersons and the Democrats are lacking FDRs.
Now let's be honest. Organized religion itself, whether it excludes other races or not, ultimately is a private gentlepeoples' only groupthink club, every single one of them. Be it Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, whatever, they all hold the exact same exclusionary policy: if you don't believe in our god and our version of the afterlife, well, pox on your and your soul and you had your chance to recognize the truth when it came knocking. This is exactly why I personally rejected religion. All the racism, slavery, sex scandals, etc. is of course bad, but really, in a way it's beside the point because the foundational principle is you gotta play their way to get in. If you don't, well, nice knowin' ya and so sorry about when you die.
But since it's basically impossible at this point in human history that an atheist will be elected, I have to deal with what I get, you understand...
Mitt's speech was not from the heart, it was from a focus group and a lack of imagination so apparent he had to rip off JFK.
Screw this calculating ken doll of a candidate who only believes in what he believes will get him elected.
I do agree that the idea of dark skin being a "curse from God" does seem pretty racists. But, does that mean we should accuse all Mormons of being bigots.
I'm so glad that my family didn't come to this country until the 20th century.
Bubba @ 15:
EXCELLENT point, Bubba. I don't think that anyone, except maybe the most die-hard Huckabee-supporting Christians, would disagree.
"I like your Christ. I don't like your christians. They're so unlike your Christ" - Mahatma Gandhi
BlueIndependent @ 108:
Well, we've had examples of previous presidents that had a religion and didn't ruin their legacies by foisting it on others. JFK comes to mind.
Granted ... but JFK was an exceptional example in a lot of ways. He was also taken out by some kind of "magic bullet" (but definitely NOT the CIA!). For the most part, Christianity has hijacked our "secular" government at every opportunity. Why was it such a break-out for a Catholic to be president? Why is it such a big deal for a congressman to be sworn in on a Quran? Because the Evangelicals and their predecessors have been worming their way back in since the first draft of the Constitution.
I'd say we already are ... the whole meme that "America doesn't torture *(as long as we get to define, in secret, what constitutes torture)" smacks of moral hypocrisy. And whether or not "We, the People" have signed off on it, it's being done by our government, in our name.
Why shouldn't a cult member's religion be open to question?
Jerry Fartwell claimed "moral superiority" for years and he only opened his cult to blacks because of lawsuits. These are the sorts of people we're dealing with.
Religion is firm belief in the imaginary. It is insanity. It should immediately disqualify anyone from driving a bus let alone running for president if they actually believe in the tenets of any supernatural religion.
If Mitt Romney worshiped Thor or Ba'al, we wouldn't be bending over backwards to accommodate his ridiculous "faith."
You're still on safe ground calling Scientology a scam.
But Jesus rose from the dead? Okay. And then he visited Montana? Sure, whatever gets you through your Sundays.
Ridiculous. Insane. Mentally ill. Should not be taken seriously by anyone. Delusion. Evidence of an injured or diseased mind. A product of early child abuse. To be pitied, not respected.
Your right to religious belief should be respected, but the beliefs themselves should be as open to ridicule as any other ridiculous, unsubstantiated claim.
scarce, you don't know any mormons? he is a priest in one of their various sects. they practice bizarre sexual practices in the church, and he talks to god personally. they carry uzi's at the main temple to discourage loiterers. you aren't allowed in unless you are one of them. please, ignorance of the insanity that is religion in toto isn't the message here.
the message seems to be that all religions conflict with each other and reality. mormon's just happen to be a ways out there when it come to ultra extreme behavior and absolutely no consequences of same due to the state being a corrupt arm of the church
jeez, thought everyone knew?
"Unlike Huckabee, NO christian would pardon a rapist...."
This is wrong in 2 ways:
1. Pretty much any movement conservative would have pardoned Dumond. They were all convinced that the Clintons had framed him.
2. The notion that crimes and transgressions can be forgiven is central to Christian theology.
That's hilarious! Wow! Does Pat Buchanan even know what he's saying anymore?
BUCHANAN: Well, look, my great-grandfather had slaves, and I don’t believe in slavery.
Buchanan misses the point, which is that Buchanan is not going around defending the pro-slavery views of his grandfather. Contrast that with Romney who embraces the faith of his fathers without qualification. That necessarily includes the allegedly-divinely inspired Mormon faith that WAS racist until 1978. Funny how the unchaning-God of heaven always seem to re-inspire re-interpretation of his Word that just happens to be in-sync with the sentiments of a culture that is strongly influenced by humanistic notions of equality, fairness and justice.
BlueIndependent @ 114:
you ask: "Does there have to be this long disclaimer on every speech given by someone with a religion that they don’t condone specific acts of their forebears?"
hell yeah there should be!
or, let me put that another way--FUCK yeah they should provide a disclaimer as to why they worship at the alter of organizations that looked the other way during the holocaust, that condoned slavery, state sanctioned violence, church-sanctioned violence, etc., etc., etc.
this notion that, somehow, organized religion can wash itself from its violent, racist, sexist, genocidal past (all-the-while hoarding riches) should be rejected.
it will never happen though. oh well, i guess that's why i am not a religious person.
Bubba @ 15:
This is not a totally unfair point, but also not totally a fair one. Romney isn't going about slamming everyone and everything like the Westboro freaks. if Phelps was running for president there'd be more than enough to disqualify him even before getting to his religion. Compared to Phelps Romney looks like a halfway decent guy (other than the fact that he'll say anything to get elected). Phelps' crew of stupid is so openly hostile, intellectually offensive and cultish, people would cringe at what he said even if he was, say, a hard-right Hindu.
i think one has only to look at bush's support of faith based initiatives, and his belief that everything he is doing is A-OK by god's standards (instead of those of the American people) to see that the precedent of religion leaking in to control the country has already been set. I was kind of surprised to find out from a Mormon friend of mine that inter-racial dating is still greatly frowned upon, and don't even mention inter-faith dating. there is enough bigotry in this country already, and if mitt is as much of a man of faith as "W" is then racial equality in this country will be in danger during this next administration.
Doorman @ 91:
And this is the reason why we are as a whole in such deep shit.
With such pussy footing and hurt feelings emanating from what passes for liberalism in this country no wonder the country has sunk so much towards the right end of the spectrum.
The country is in flames, and if someone yells "the country is fucking burning, god damned!"
You'll see a liberal complaining right away about the fact that the plea for help was made using foul language. The liberal will also ponder what is it with all the yelling -- it is not nice! By the time the liberal gets through all his requests on the original "FIRE!" scream, the country will be reduced ashes as the fire will have raged during never ending calls for politeness and revisions to whomever dares to point the obvious: our collective house is burned down.
We will all end up in deep shit and homeless, but some liberals will take plenty of consolation in the fact that no one was even mildly offended while the fired raged. After all that is what's fundamental, isn't? God forbid that the GOPers who are fucking us up our collective rear ends have to endure a single strident yell of disapproval...
I would have wanted this kind of talk when it came to the Bush Family and the Nazi party supporter. It would have come in handy on the propaganda tool that they implemented for the campaign. We would have been a little more prudence in electing both Bush's
youngwizdom @ 71: " why would Eldridge Cleaver, the most famous member of the "Black Panthers" became a Black Mormon later in life? "
Cleaver was also a fundamentalist Christian, a Moonie and a drug addict at different points in his life. He tried, then quit the Mormon Church.
I don't think Cleaver believing in something is a good advertisement.
paranoia @ 129:
From the day that Bush II opened his pie hole announcing his intentions to run for the presidency, it would have been the correct action course for people on the left to point out the obvious: the guy is/was a fucking moron, a life time failure, can barely speak English, can't think on his own, he is a privileged east coast old money blue blood trying to pass for a cowboy with faux Texan accent to boot, and whose grand daddy had to pay large fines for trading w. the enemy during WWII.
But nooo, that would not have been nice. And thus, since we can not call a moron what it is: a moron. We are stuck with having to deal with feces swung over our way by the right wing, and we have to endure such abuses with a nice smile in our face and ever enduring politeness.
i'm very surprised at the overall tone of the comments here...
i did watch O'Donnell on saturday... i was shocked at his vehemence...
and took away the feeling that he had a personal agenda to satisfy...
i'm not comfortable criticizing anyone's religion...
generally speaking, critical thinking needs to come from within a church...
and surely it was criticisms from within the Mormon church that caused the change in 1978...
as an employer, i do hire without regard to race, gender, sexual or religious preference...
and i honestly try to treat people in general, in the same way...
for me, it is not about tolerence, it is about respect...
it is also with an understanding that growing up within a church and practicing the "faith of our fathers" is often a matter of respect...
for one's parents, family, and often to one's community...
i think we need to ease up on the criticism of an entire group of people based on race, religion, or country of origin...
asking a person to accept responsibility for one's parent's and their parent's parents...
it's kind of like hating someone because they are (name your prejudice here).
I think all Jesus Christ can say about this controversy is, "Jesus Christ!"
"Every religion has had its scandals..." was my favourite part. Ain't it the truth. Who needs the hocus-pocus or organized religion???? (Do not confuse that with personal faith: I have no problem with that.)
And, what's with this show? Do they all have to sign agreements to rant and scream, to go on it??
CitizenX @ 60:
The problem with "Mormonism" is not just the policies regarding African Americans. One of the tenets of this group of idiots is the fact that Native Americans (of the Ute-Aztec persuasion to be more precise) were "sinners" and usurpers, so it was A-OK for the good merry pale folks (free of sin, apparently sin in Mormon-land is measured by one's level of melanin and his or her ability to tan... which I always viewed it as a blessing, but I guess Mr. Smith's followers have a differing opinion) coming over Utah to basically assasinate en masse the people who had lived there for eons.
Apparently it is perfectly justified to kill people and steal their land, if you have this set of gold tablets that only you can decipher. I mean, imagine going to your neighbour and steal their land and take his hot wife, all because you encounter some "sacred" scriptures in your basement that only you can read, and which tells you that God is A-OK with that plan of action.
Religions for the most part require a certain kind of reality/reason suspension. However things like the Mormon church are so fucking nuts, that idiots following the teachings of a convicted fellon should be laughed out of town. Because Mr. Smith should have been laughed out of town when he came up with his bullshit, but no... plenty of idiots read his teachings, and decided... you know what? I am OK with that bullshit!
The sad part is for those African Americans who decided to join the Mormon church... that is a special kind of moron on their own right....
BTW, The Mormon church is the only organized religion who has waged war against the government of the United States. So yeah, Mr. Romney has plenty of 'xplaining to do.
Mitt Romney is not racist. He loves minorities. So much in fact, he thinks everyone should own a few.
How's YOUR lawn looking? Exactly.
werenotgonnatakeit @ 35:
Actually, I don't think it is. I think ORGANIZED RELIGION just becomes more (bad) politics, with a twisted agenda, but individual faith is not a bad thing. That said, I am an atheist, in the sense I don't believe in a "Christian god". I do believe in some sort of higher power, better described in Eastern thinking.
Peter Hollman @ 132:
I am of the opinion that respect is earned not granted. It makes more sense, albeit it makes things a bit harder for people doing all the victimizing to play the victims... what a bitch, eh?
Peter Hollman @ 132:
except that you can't choose your parents. you can't choose your race. you can't choose the country you were born into. etc.
yet, people choose all the time to be a part of and donate money to organizations that supported some of humanity's most egregious crimes and sins (to put it in religious terms). and i am not just talking about centuries old events like the crusades, or witch burning. but contemporary events. and, yes, i apologize of people take offense at this, but i truly believe that if someone is a devout member of church/temple/mosque/spaghetti house so-and-so they should be able to explain just how and why they are members of that organization in the face of past trangressions.
Here's two reasons why Romney's Mormon faith should be enough to kill his presidential bid:
1) as a devout Mormon, he believes that when he dies, he will become the GOD OF HIS OWN PLANET.
2) Anyone who has read the story of Joseph Smith, and doesn't realize right away that he was a snake-oil salesman is a MORON. An angel told him where to find some golden plates? He dug them up, but then (conveniently) lost them? Of course he remembered enough from them to write the whole Book of Mormon... Yeah, right.
The Dude @ 135:
Amen!
I don't care about Mitt being a Mormon. I don't like him cuz he's an asshole.
Before we talk about magic underwear and gold tablets, have you seen the Pope??
Edwin @ 143:
Silly monkey, everyone knows the Pope has a magic hat and cape, not underwear...
The thing always made me laugh about the Catholic church was the Pope Mobile. Here is a guy who has a "direct" line with the almighty upstairs, and yet he needs to move around an armoured car with thick fuck off ballistic glass for fears of being shot at again. I mean, if god can't deflect bullets... what pussy ass deity are the Catholics praying to? Also, if heaven is such a cool place, and the Pope should be at the top of the line admission-wise... why does he care so much about not being killed? I would be first one to get shot, if I get to go upstairs to have the afterlife right next to the almighty. Why wasting more time in this hell hole?
Although I prefer the Anglican Church approach, "God told me that since you don't let me divorce the bitch Queen I married, that it is OK for me to do my own church, and I will get the collections and I get free range to design my own cooler funny hats and canes."
That is why I take offense when devout Christians make fun of Tom Cruise and Scientology. At least they have Aliens, and space ships! Space ships people!!!!! How fucking cool is that? Oh... and magic crystals... double awesome whammy on that one!!! And the name of the Alien boss is cool too... What do Christians have? A guy on a cross, and eternal damnation fire... pzzzzzt boooring! I'll take spaceships and intergalactic laser battles any day....
Hahaha. Did she say "dissing"?
I'm also in agreement that O'Donnell's rant was 1000% accurate. Number one, Romney's religion wouldn't be an issue if he weren't out there trying to court the religious right. And I'm disgusted with the lazy, piss poor analysis of the DC pundits like Matthews doing everything in their power to liken Romney's exclusionary speech with Kennedy's inclusive speech.
Anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together can see the difference between the intent of Kennedy's speech and that of Romney's. Kennedy really tried to separate church from state while Romney said hey, I may not have your faith but look over there, these secularists are far worse, they're the enemy. His speech was nothing but a political hit and of course it will do nothing to allay the fears of the right wing base he's trying to pander to. Too bad for Romney they've already got their real regressive evolution denying candidate in Huckabee.
Very nice and well deserved smackdown by Lawrence.
Great stuff!
Mormonism is bullshit.
Its not nice to make fun of people for things they didnt choose (skin color, handicaps,etc) but religion is a choice. If you are stupid enough to believe in Joe Smith or L Ron Hubbard, that goes to your intelligence. If he believed in David Koresh or Jim Jones would that be something to ignore as well because its in the magic ooky pooky category of "religion"?
Stop looking for free passes for dumbshit beliefs.
Larry's OK, this happens every once in a while, he just needs someone to torque-up his head nuts.
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