December 12, 2007 02:00 PM
Democratic Debate Open Thread: UPDATED!
The final one...but without Dennis Kucinich.
Curious that they made room for Alan Keyes yesterday and excluded Dennis today. If you'd like to ask them why, here's some contact info: (h/t Manila Ryce at The Largest Minority)
Editor Carolyn Washburn (515) 284-8502.
Laura Hollingsworth President and Publisher (515) 284-8041
Randy Brubaker Managing Editor (515) 284-8590
Randy Evans Assistant Managing Editor (515) 284-8118
Letters to the editor e-mail: letters@dmreg.com
You can catch streaming video of the debates at CNN, MSNBC and CSpan
Tell us if you catch anything newsworthy.
UPDATE: MSNBC is covering the Mitchell/Baseball steroid report instead of the debate. Nice going...
iowa sux
first
lets hope this is better than the sad repub debate!
dan @ 2:
ha
bill richardson was a governor?
Attack the special interests!
Kuchinich has just as much of a right to be on that podium as Biden, Dodd or Richardson.
Why would he be the ONLY one excluded?
It's christmas time with Mike Gravel on red state update
the only democrat that has earned your vote. All those others are just pandering for your vote. Kucinich included cuz he doesn't support the national initiative.
Another example of how Kucinich has been marginalized by those in power. Apparently the last thing that a very conservative state like Iowa desires to have happen is for a progressive voice like Kucinich's to be heard alongside the rest of the mainstream Democrats.
Not one single vote in America has been cast, yet you are not allowed to hear all of the candidates speak. Get the corporations and their money out of the elections.
I noticed last nite on TV an ad w/the oh-so-adorable-and-dim Katie Couric going to interview the candidates, and didn't see Kucinich in the line-up. This is so wrong. It's tossing him out of the race by default of the networks.
Well, that's pretty much bullshit. I don't have a problem with them skipping DK, but only if they also get rid of Biden and Dodd. Their support level is about the same. Why not just arbitrarily pass on Hillary?
As far as I'm concerned The Des Moines Register can set the guest list for their own debate with whatever criteria they wish.
But not after they invite Alan Keyes to the GOP one. You can't say you have any criteria at all after that performance. I mean, c'mon. Alan Keyes? Sorry, Register, you hafta let Kucinich on the Democratic stage.
My vote goes to whoever can beat Hillary.
I'd like NOT to have to hold my nose and vote for her in november.
Gore/Edwards in '08!
*
So one would expect that debates hosted by NPR would feature more hard-hitting questions on the issues that really matter to Americans, huh?
Unfortunately, the Dem debate and the moderator NPR provided were both pathetic...and I expect this one will be no better.
NPR is so cowed by the defunding threat of the Republican Congress they've been politically castrated...
All very sad.
.
And the Des Moines Register is beholden to whom?
Most certainly NOT truth, opportunity or an "open forum" when they selectively shut out individuals because the individual isn't beholden to ANY singular group/organization.
The Des Moines Register makes a mockery out of our Democratic process. Stalin would be proud of America today, as now, in America, not only do private corporations control the method of counting the votes, private corporations are busy deciding who we can/can vote for. Mussolini thought he was paying Stalin a compliment by reworking his Socialist platform into Italy's Fascism. How close do we have to get to the same principles at play before America wakes up?
.
.
Thankyou Crooks & Liars for at least questioning thee exclusion of Presidential Candidate Congressman Dennis Kucinich,
and providing thee contact info of thee Des Moines register.
I myself emailed and called them yesterday.
I always could rely on C&L for being above board.
CoIntelPRo @ 1:
Iowa is bluer than you think. I don't think Bush took it in the last election - I think he stole it.
*
Are they discussing this? Or what TV shows they watch.
Reuters - Thu Dec 13
LONDON (Reuters) - Investor delight at a concerted central bank effort to relieve jammed money markets fizzled out on Thursday with experts saying the credit crisis would only end when commercial banks trusted each other again.
wagonjak @ 15:
there were actually 3 moderators for that debate and i actually found the NPR debate to be the best so far.
Anyway, Richardson is getting some serious time right now, the big 3 have spoke the least so far I think.
Just as a longtime attorney at the U.S. Department of Justice said,
"I can honestly say that I have never been as ashamed of the department and government that I serve as I am at this time."
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/070907N.shtml
--> We can honestly say that we have never been as ashamed of the U.S. media, their disservice, dishonesty and propaganda perpetrated against the people of this country.
2008: VOTE TOGETHER IN MASSIVE NUMBERS. TAKE PICTURES.
JudyLou @ 11:
EXACTLY.
Couric IS a player in this mess. She's been promoting her series as hard questions for the candidates. Most people assume that means ALL. But the truth is, those beholden enough.
.
L.A. Confidential @ 19:
no, they arent, but the republicans were all over it yesterday!
good debate so far and the host is less annoying than she was yesterday
it's great to hear about issues that usually don't get enough time such as china and balanced budgets
Edwards has been great
Dodd has been great
Obama has been okay
Richardson is fumbling around and getting lost
Biden has a cold, but made some great points about the waste in the defense budget
Hillary is coming across as more shrill than normal
It's the debates that suck.
They've made them so stupid and so common they mean nothing.
How about a Science and Technology debate?
*
We imported India's caste system while exporting our jobs
Richardson - No junk food in schools.
plastic @ 23:
Whats Ironic is many Democrats are far wealthier then the Cons. No wonder they aren't talking about it.
I hope the candidates answer some questions on this issue..
Five Days Left to Stop Big Media
http://action.freepress.net/campaign/ownership/
If we think big media is bad now, just think what will happen if "their new plan" goes through.
good point by obama about prescription drug companies, but he should have use it to hit hillary
Obama - great little speech there on change!
kucinich is singled out and discriminated against.... the one democrat that i actually respect...
this is completely unacceptable. pissed.
Erroll @ 9:
Kucinich has been marginalized by his own irrelevance. What's he polling? 0.5%? 1?
hahaha Edwards said something like "we should give this world as good as we left it" or something - everyone was cracking up
L.A. Confidential @ 28:
i was kidding about the republicans talking about that issue. they talked mostly about building fences and islamo facists.
that's cuz the mainstreamliberalfascist media manipulates the polls and hangs up on anyone who says "Kuchi-" (/sarcasm)
plastic @ 34:
Ahh yes "The Fence and Terror Terror Terror". I can just see it in 20 years. The President of Mexico saying to the U.S. Prez. "Mr Resident, in honor of your Great Communicator, I challenge you to tear down that fence."
Representative Democracies, a la Western Europe, are usually diminished by plenty of American scholars as "Dictatorships of the many."
However, I am about done with the American Democratic Republic system that hold the many hostage of the few. The whole Iowa bullshit electoral cycle proves that. No offense to Iowans, but the majority of Americans live in urban centers nearby the coasts. I think the electoral system should be able to pander to the interest of both urban and rural populations, we live in the XXI century and things have progressed quite a bit in the past 2 hundred years.
Tell you what, if the rural communities want to keep the current system which gives them an unfair strength of representation with respect to their overall population size... fine. But we should do the following, the rural areas/small states get to pick up the tab of the urban areas/bigger states, and us educated godless dirty hippie urbanite latte sipping yuppies get to pick theirs, OK?
DiggyG @ 32:
you don't know what you are talking about. its that simple.
clinton will review every trade agreement. that should be some fun reading!
Silly rabbits, all of this campaigning stuff is just to provide a facade of "legitimacy" for a process that is completely rigged. The function of elections is simply to give people the illusion that they are participating. When all is said and done, who will be king is determined by American establishment elites. DK and MG are excluded because they keep raising inconvenient truths and want to step outside the box. Thank god the establishment protects us from such things. [snark]
I'm not really getting mad about Dennis not being there because I've seen enough of him and now it's time to get serious. If you are thinking of voting Dennis vote for Obama or John instead, but it does seem strange that they let in a kook like Keyes and leave our eccentric Gravel out.
budda @ 41:
I'd love to see Gravel and Keyes debate. I think Gravel might knock him out, literally.
Kucinich was not invited because he does not have a campaign office in Iowa. all candidates had to have an office rented in the state in order to be invited.
thats why Alan keyes WAS on the Rethug debate yesterday.
I was told that Dennis didn't meet the criteria...I said "you mean he's a real leader with a spine?" the woman on the phone said yes.
Boy I sure wish we lived somewhere that had freedom...like America is supposed to have.
But really there is no freedom in America, except as Bill Hicks onces said "You are free to do as we tell you!"
DiggyG @ 32:
CBSNEWS
"In the latest Register poll of likely Democratic caucus-goers in Iowa, Kucinich came in at 1 percent support, the same as Chris Dodd.
In the most recent CBS News/New York Times poll of Democrats
nationally, Kucinich had 2 percent support – more than Dodd and the
same as Bill Richardson and Joe Biden. Dodd, Richardson and Biden were all invited to Thursday's debate."
much more detailed info here
truly disappointing
Dennis Kucinich and Thursday’s Iowa Debate
by jeanhaybright
Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 08:15:52 AM PST
joe in oklahoma @ 43:
The Federal Elections Commission recognizes that the Kucinich
campaign has paid staff in Iowa. The IRS recognizes the legitimacy of
a home office.
joe in oklahoma @ 43:
oh....
thanks for the information. i was not aware of that qualification requirement.
I disagree with Richardson about Iraq being the single biggest issue in this election. The war is definitely a huge issue, but the taking away of our Constitutional rights never seems to be asked or talked about during these debates.
Mr. Pelicano @ 40:
I concur
Any "Great Communicators" emerge?
Why Kucinich isn't in the Democratic debate -- sent by buzz since 10 hours 44 minutes, published about 2 hours 12 minutes
Six Democratic candidates for president will take the stage at 1 p.m. Thursday in the Des Moines Register’s second presidential debate. The candidates who will take part are Senator Joe Biden, Senator Hillary Clinton, Senator Chris Dodd, Senator John Edwards, Senator Barack Obama and Governor Bill Richardson. Neither Dennis Kucinich nor Mike Gravel had a campaign office in Iowa by the Oct. 1 deadline, according to reports filed with the Federal Election Commission.
clinton made an awkward reference to yesterdays repub debate, came off weird to say the least
I love this debate. It may be a bit boring, but our people are coming together. I'm usually all for bashing Hillary and people fighting hard for progressive ideas. Today has been a nice change though. Everyone is coming together. No real attacks. Friendly debate. It got me thinking we really gotta come together at this time.
But then I see what is happening in Congress. I see Nancy and Harry giving in time and time again and then I start thinking again - damn it why aren't we angry? progressives time and time again put these people in power and they do nothing. what has a democratic congress and senate done? I know bush and the republicans are being assholes, but our leadership has not been tough enough and have failed us.
so nice debates like this are nice to see, but where do we get being nice in the long run? we get more corporate control and no change.
WASHINGTON — The Senate Judiciary Committee voted for a contempt citation against presidential confidants Karl Rove and Josh Bolten on Thursday, the latest move in an inquiry into possibly politically motivated firings of federal prosecutors.
The 12-7 vote sent the citation against the two to the full Senate. Majority Leader Harry Reid told reporters afterward that he will consider whether to bring it to the floor next year.
Consider? Next year? Harry, your truly a first rate schlemiel.
plastic @ 52:
agree that was a try at humour that fell so flat that I actually cringed for her
i hate hillary, but i actually felt sorry for her with that "joke"
The criteria to establish which participants were invited to the Register’s debates:
1. Candidates must have filed an FEC Form F-2 “Statement of Candidacy” with the Federal Election Commission, and
2. Candidates must have publicly announced an intention to run for the nomination of the Republican or the Democratic Party for President of the United States, and
3. Candidates must have had a campaign office inside the State of Iowa as of October 1, 2007, and
4. Candidates must have employed at least one paid campaign staff representative to perform full-time campaign duties in the State of Iowa on behalf of the candidate since at least October 1, 2007, and
5. Candidates must have had at least a 1% support showing in the Des Moines Register’s October, 2007 Iowa Poll.
Neither Dennis Kucinich nor Mike Gravel had a campaign office in Iowa by the Oct. 1 deadline, according to reports filed with the Federal Election Commission. Gravel also did not have any paid staff in the state by the deadline.
The Democratic debate can be seen at Iowa Public Television, CNN, MSNBC, Fox News Channel, C-SPAN 3. The debate will be rebroadcast at 7 p.m. on Iowa Public Television.
It can be seen live via web cast at DesMoinesRegister.com.
DiggyG @ 32:
It is difficult to poll above .5% when you aren't even on the polls.
However, the ones he does make it on he beats Biden, Dodd, and Richardson. But why should you know that? It might spoil you reality.
.
L.A. Confidential @ 54:
please don't tell me you actually expected more from harry. I'm surprised at you!
Ok, so I called The Des Moines Register until I got an answer to Why Dennis is missing.
I was told he did not have an office in Iowa by Oct 1, 2007 which was a guideline.
So, next I called his office and found that he has had an office since April 2007. They told me that they are working out of home offices (grassroots). So, he was denied because of what is office was?
Anyone with a problem with that call Cathy Hickman @ 515-284-8041. She may be busy, talking to me first.
-Jason
Portland, Ore.
So Dennis got the "Nader Treatment" huh? Well at least they spared him from having thugs escorting him out of the building had he tried to get face time with the voters.
POLLS SAYS:
Kucinich beats all other Dems on the issues
CoIntelPRo @ 51:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/12/12/10486/844/978/421071
budda @ 55:
she just blurted it out! if she had mentioned it while answering the question it would have been a little better.
I wish they'd invite Alan Keyes to the dem debate too. Can't get enough of that guy, and the hilarity that ensues.
budda @ 24:
Seems to me that the questions that NEED to be asked are only asked when the Dem candidates are up there, while the gooper candidates are thrown softballs.
DiggyG @ 32:
who is taking the polls? you ever ask that?
EeeJay @ 62:
I agree with you. I just wanted to get the facts out first.
another bit of funny from the host - she must have smoked weed yesterday and did some cocaine today
very funny and Dodd too saying "it's going to be a long year"
what can you do in 1st year
Obama - try to end war in Iraq, review executive orders by Bush, move forward on providing healthcare to all
Biden - Implement the Biden plan in Iraq (i think this is the 3 state solution?) no more torture, insure every single child in america.
Richardson - all troops out no residual forces, try to pass universal healthcare. Start an energy revolution! Tell people he'll follow the Constitution. (Biden and Dodd trash Richardson on his long answer, Dodd, "it's gonna be a long year")
Dodd - Change the discourse, no shrillness! Diplomacy in the Middle East, Convene people to talk about everything.
Edwards - End War, close Gitmo, bring back civil liberties, everything else. Americans must join together and take back America from the corporations.
Clinton - "I'm gonna be busy", she'll start to end the war, review executive orders (thats what Obama said), bring back science, move quickly.
man, so much more substance that in the repubs answer to this questions, pretty amazing.
We don't need to ask why.
Kucinich didn't meet TWO of the three requirements for entry. He didn't have an Iowa office by the required deadline. And he isn't polling at 1% or higher.
When a campaign can't even meet the standards that Alan Keyes can meet, then it's time to stop taking it seriously.
Maybe Dennis can try to run for the presidency of Roswell.
good question about clinton's secrecy, but the host should have also asked about hillary's very closed media relations during the race so far - she's more like bush and nixon as far as openness goes
ATTENTION AMERICAN PUBLIC
Ask yourself why the top polling Democrat and Republican contenders are being excluded from the national stage. Go ahead and ask, if you dare.
Ronin Tetsuro @ 72:
this is not true
EVERYONE LOVES BIDEN!
I don't want to ask why. The more I see of Dennis Kucinich, the more I think he would be disastrous. We do not need anymore extremists of either party in the WH. Liberals should re-evaluate some of their more extreme agenda and see if it isn't just very self-serving to a small segment of the population (legalize all drugs, legalize all illegal aliens--probably connected). These are the reasons middle class Americans won't vote for Democrats.
elodie @ 70:
please read posts above
CoIntelPRo @ 61:
Where do you people get these polls? It's as bad as Pravda.
Hillary was very cold and mean with her little comment after Obama's question. And he was great putting her in her place saying "Hillary - I'm looking forward to your advising me to." This will cost her. She has been awkward tonight with her "jokes."
nice little obama clinton exchange concerning obamas advisors having worked for Bill Clinton. Obama says he'll ask for Hillary's advice on foreign policy too.
Trittydi @ 14:
Hillary is the best candidate for the job in '08. This is not a time to try to push through the perfect liberal agenda. This president will have a huge task just undoing Bush's damage. Hillary has the experience to do it. When people start telling themselves Hillary is just another Bush, they review her performance during the Clinton years. This woman is real Democrat.
budda @ 78:
agreed, this has been a pretty mundane debate but her two attempts at humor were really really awkward.
budda @ 78:
Obama just killed her with his quick retort, you want highlights? That's the one that will make the news
wow, edwards answer right there almost brought a tear to my eye
"someone will go to bed hungry tonight...."
great job edwards!
I didn't like Hillary's answer to that
Wow, John's New Years resolution answer was a very powerful and moving
budda @ 83:
Whoever the nominee is needs to use that in the national debates when talking about healthcare. Pretty strong stuff.
What a difference guys between the dems and reps. Maybe it was the moderate, but the republicans were all so hateful and mean. The dems at least can laugh a little and not be so uptight. And the dems are better able to speak about the hurt of the poor and the one's who don't have money.
plastic @ 85:
ooops, i mean the part when he talked about people going to the emergency room begging for healthcare.
The same rehearsed answers to the same old questions. Blech. The only person that seems more bored with this than me is Edwards. That bumps him up in my estimation... his delivery is not quite as good as it should be though. Tired maybe. Bored of saying the same things, certainly. He did misspeak once, and the moderator couldn't stop giggling... I don't like his speaking style but the CONTENT of his words, positions on the topics are just perfect to me. Not that there is much (if any) content in this fluff-fest.
There goes Hillary, raising her hand and squirming in her seat at every question. How annoying. "Teacher teacher, call on me!" What is a word that is stronger than "smug"? It is flabbergasting that her campaign hasn't found a way to take that condescension out of her speaking voice yet. I'm surprised she hasn't screamed, "I'm telling Mom!" yet.
Richardson seems only mildly interested in the proceedings as usual. He always seems surprised and bemused that he's actually in a debate. One of his chins is growing at an alarming rate, however... odd...
Biden is the most natural speaker. He'd be a good actor... holy crap. The moderator just called him a racist pig!!! Wow. I don't see that type of "fuck you" question directed at anyone else! His mouth does get him into trouble, but I still think he comes across as genuine. Aww, Obama vouches for poor old Joe as no racist. That's nice. Joe looks like a cool guy. Not so much president, but definitely would have some interesting stories over a beer. Charisma.
Dodd briefly looked as pissed off in this debate as Edwards was in the last debate at the lack of change in the country and stupid, sappy "debate" format. Good for him. I think Edwards/Dodd would make a great ticket, but there seems to be a weird push for a "minority" ticket just to have a "minority ticket". The Democrats just aren't interested in two white guys, no matter the qualifications. Too bad. If I had a business, this is the guy I'd pick to run it.
Obama... steady. Same as always. Never quite living up to the promise of that brilliant oratory in the past. Slightly stiff, slightly wooden. And, yes, articulate (moreso that the other candidates). I sure wish he'd waited just 4 more years and run for a governorship. The moderator lady DEFINITELY has a crush on Obama. Much flirting. It's actually a little embarrassing. Like Edwards, his posturing is too artificial, too forced. They need to relax like Biden. Or even Dodd.
Blargh. Now the question is "how much do you heart Iowans?" Much kissing of ass ensues. Dodd, least brown-nosing answer.
The wrap up line? "You can find out more about this debate... or yesterday's very exciting Republican debate online..." Telling.
The Des Moines Register: Another fine example of American Fascism.
Hey, Carolyn Washburn: You let in Alan Keyes and exclude Dennis Kucinich? WHAT. THE. FUCK!?? I hope the Kucinich campaign sues you over these double standards. You are a disgrace!
again CNN comes right off and starts giving Hillary time. i'm so sick of the national media putting hillary in our face non stop.
plastic @ 42:
Forget that, how about a cage match with the Two Alaskan Terrors: Gravel, and Ted Stevens! After the blood is flowing, sure thrown in Keys and a little person mime riding a tricycle, just for extra crazy...
Wow, I surprised by some of these responses. Apparently when Edwards seems over the top to me (and a bit fake) he is actually reaching people emotionally. Huh. I guess that's why I struggle to pay rent every month instead of winning $10 million lawsuits and running for president. I still think he stomps all over the rest of the field on policy.
As we have seen in 2000 and 2004, who you vote for isn't as important as HOW those votes are counted.
2000: Gore had more votes from US Citizens, but Bush "won" because the votes from the Electoral College trumped the Citizens' Vote.
2004: Irregularites in Ohio and the widespread use of hackable touch screen voting machine calls the counting of the votes into question.
The "Winner Take All" system of counting the votes in our Presidential election is Draconian and Obsolete! An alternative exist today! It's called Instant Runoff Voting. We should have been discussing this for the past year instead of being distracted by the Corporate Script that is dictating the campaign.
Want to end the "electability," and "spoiler" arguments, and at the same time achieve better voter turnout and overall representation? Then adopt Instant Runoff Voting, and be done with this rigged bullshit that passes for politics and elections today.
I just recently got to vote by IRV, during the election for the Board of my local progressive radio station and it was a breath of fresh air and definitely felt more "democratic."(pun intended)
If the votes in Presidential election are counted through Instant Runoff Voting, then my vote would look like this.
1. Dennis Kucinich (D)
2. Cynthia McKinnney (G)
3. Ron Paul (R)
4. Brian Moore (S) - just to put the two Major Capitalist parties into perspective and show what a real opposition party is.
VP would be whomever finishes 2nd once a "winner" was declared.
If you don't know what I'm talking about, you can educate yourself on the principles of Instant Runoff Voting here: http://fairvote.org/
kaT @ 75:
Yeah, why legalize substances that people are going to use if their stupid enough regardless, and is the sole reason our prisons are at the breaking point. You know, some of the most intellegent, creative, compassionate, and successful people where drug users, no wonder why the middle class will not vote for this issue. It's in our nature to seek pleasure and escape from daily stresses. If they were legal and the dangerious one heavily taxed, crime would drop by so much in this country as the substances could be more easily controlled. Prohibition doesn't work, get a clue
Oh and lets kick out all the people who are here cooking our food, mowing our lawns, and doing various other forms of cheap labor for minimum wage. They're takin are jerbs!!!! If an uneducated, illegal immigrant who doesn't know english can do your job better, and for less, well then it's time to find a new job. Progressives aren't for illegal immigration, they just like to fix problems, and not just throw racism, hatred, and fear at them and hope they go away. Again, get a clue.
When big business does everything it can to silence a presidental candidate, you know that he is the candidate to vote for. Dennis Kucinich is the ONLY candidate qualified for the job.
I hope everyone here at least takes the time to swarm these folks with angry emails and phone calls. Let's make them sorry that they even considered getting away with this.
kaT @ 75:
no, wrong, incorrect, error.
further, what you see as an 'extremist' i see as someone to respect, look up to and support.
you might be afraid of holding war criminals accountable for their actions. you might be afraid to move away from the for-profit healthcare system, you might be afraid to move away from nuclear holocaust. you might be afraid of stopping the multi-billion dollar/civilian killing/life-ruining/dictator supporting/democratic-destroying war on drugs. you might be afraid to confront our military proconsul stance around the globe. you might be afraid to end the corporate stranglehold on the country. etc., etc., etc.
our country has moved further and further towards some sort of authoritarian police state, and you might like that, i dunno. but please don't use your misinformation as a crutch.
when it comes right down to it, kucinich does poll very high, when people are polled on the issues, not candidates. again, you might consider someone with ethics, responsibility, courage and integrity an 'extremist', but you only make yourself look bad in so doing.
@88 - Great roundup! I missed debate, and I liked your review of it. It reminds me why I dislike all politicians so much. They're all big phonies. I say let's just the primaries over with so we can move forward and elect a Dem next year.
equilibrio @ 92:
Cynthia McKinney? Are you serious????????? (Rhetorical question)! Sheesh!
kaT @ 75:
so an honest president like dennis kucinich would be disastrous for america? you got to be kidding me! and for your information, dennnis kucinich isn't an extremist. the more i read your posts, the more i think that you're parrotting Lou Dobbs. You sound just like him. Get over your XENOPHOBIA KAT. SHEESH
Mrs. C sounds rehearsed. Its almost as if knows the question before its asked.
Samson- @ 38:
yeah whatyou just said!
Why in the hell do they have to have these debates when the majority of people are at work?
"I'll show you politics in America right here. 'I believe the puppet on the right shares my beliefs.' 'Well, I believe the puppet on the left is more to my liking.' Hey, wait a minute, there's one guy holding up both puppets! 'Go back to bed, America, your government is in control. Here's Love Connection, watch this and get fat and stupid. By the way, keep drinking beer.'"
--Bill Hicks
I sent an email about this to letters@dmreg.com
Samson- @ 95:
Well said.
Everyone so nicey nice without Gravel and Kucinich not challenging. Anyone hear any questions about the Israeli Palestinian conflict. Hell no. One of the 10,ooo lb gorillas on the stage.
At least Richardson brought up how the Iraq war is not much in the news lately or in the debates anyone been noticing. Nah Americans are busy keeping their pedals to the metal driving to malls to buy shit from China to put under a tree that has to do with a holiday that is supposed to be about a peace loving, compassionate guy named Jesus.
Not much time to think about the 4ooo American soldiers who are dead, the 30,ooo injured American soldiers, the over one million Iraqi people who are now dead and the 4million Iraqi refugees that the invasion of Iraq created. Nah too busy to think about that.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS AMERICANS FROM 4 MILLION IRAQI REFUGEES. THANKS A LOT
You can vent some more about this horrible news here:
http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/99999999/HELP/40...
As I have said here many times before, the big money will do everything in it's power to discredit Kucinich and make sure his message is not heard. Our only hope is a grassroots movement to educate everyone we can about the issues and where Kucinich stands as compared to the other candidates. Kucinich is the clear candidate for the people.
Dennis Kucinich 08 - A leader of courage and integrity
So in an important debate with nationwide coverage an allready marginalized candidate is refused to participate due to a trivial technicality? Meanwhile the president and vice president can violate the constitution at will without even the threat of impeachement. I guess some rules are more important than others.
Excluding Kucinich on the basis of arbitrary rules and regulations was wrong, however you cut it. It's the sort of thing you expect in Russia, not the U.S., and certainly not in a party that purports to be *democratic.* For me, this bit of fascism was the final straw in my relationship with the Democrats (I have voted Democratic in every election since 1984), and in 2008 I will take my revenge by voting a straight Republican ticket. Hillary and the other fascist-crats may get their way with the party, they won't get my vote.
Mike @ 109:
Um, that makes no sense at all. I'm no Hillary fan, but she is still miles better than what the Repugs are offering. Besides, it's not the Democrats that excluded Kucinich, it's the paper. I understand your frustration, but you answer to it is completely illogical.
The REAL requirement(s) to be included in today’s Democratic debate are:
(1) Voted for the Patriot Act 1 and 2
(2) Voted for the hideous Military Comissions Act
(3) Given Bush authorization for Iraq War
(4) Funded the war without question
(5) Taken bucketloads of money from Corporate Donors
(6) Make sure insurance companies make billions from your health insurance plan
(7) Refused to Defend the Constitution and uphold your oath
Hillary, Barack and John this is your resume!
don't hate me @ 111:
and, if i may:
(8) Bought into the Neoliberal Neocolonization of "developing" countries, as practiced by the IMF and World Bank. ie, the Washington Consensus.
Corporate whore bastards.... Here we go again, business as usual.. If any of the other candidates on that stage had any guts. they would have boycotted enmass, until DK was allowed in.. one for all and all for one.. I'm pissed and sick and tired of "Politics as usual"... So now i'm gonna take my contribution that was earmarked for Hillary, and send it to dennis.... Bye bye
Wait, Listen... I think that sucking sound is our democracy going down the drain..
bandit @ 82:
Tweety will be all over that tiny bit like it was the entire debate & the only thing anyone ever needs to know from this debate. Slobbering & drooling like he does every nite over everything Hillary, Tweety will replay it & replay it so be sure to tune in to enjoy it again! He'll probably call her shrill too like somebody did right off the bat or maybe cold & mean like Fox Noise calls her. So original, the Hillary haters. She answered so well she must've had the questions in advance. She laughed (OMG!). She wore a *gasp!* pantsuit! RME I'm glad for Oprah's candidate that he got a softball question while the other candidates got embarrassing difficult ones. He looked very comfortable lobbing a "quick retort" without answering the question. He's got a future doing stand-up.
don't hate me @ 111:
Brilliant, brilliant post! Honestly, you should send this to the Des Moines Register as a cpmplaint for Congressman Kucinich's exclusion from the debate. Here's the link: letters@dmreg.com
Or if you'd prefer, I'd be happy tosend it for you (really, just let me know). This is exactly the kind of information that the average American voter needs to her, godammit! Kudos to you, "don't hate me."
K U C I N I C H ' 0 8
kaT @ 75:
What makes him extreme?
Is it that he wants to uphold the constitution and the rule of law by impeaching Cheney and Bush?
Is it the single payer not-for-profit health care system that he advocates (which has quite a bit of support already)?
Is it that he wants to end the war in Iraq?
Is it that he wants to end all of the damaging trade agreements that we have?
I think the majority of people want these things. Kucinich's platform is mainstream. He's not some far left whack job that his opponents try to portray him as.
I was watching the National Geographic Channel. Two guys were watching a group on lions. They were relatively close. The reporter asked the guide why they don't run over here and tear us to shreds. The guide said its because they don't know what we are. They can't identify us.
It got me thinking that the Beltway media experiences the same phenomena when looking at Dennis Kucinich. They don't know what an honest, principled man is. Its outside their limited understanding of the world. The Chris Matthews of the world can identify, relate and talk endlessly about characters like Hillary, Rudy and Mitt. They're the same species. Duplicitous, ruthless and slimy. Kucinich confounds them. They'd have as much luck trying to understand a man of conscience as the lion would have explaining the psyche of a man.
don't hate me @ 111:
Not to put too fine a point on it, but Obama did not vote for the first Patriot Act, nor did he vote for the MCA. He also did not give Bush authorization. Edwards didn't vote for the MCA or the 2nd Patriot Act. I don't even think Clinton voted for the MCA.
Get your facts straight.
I'm pissed that Dennis wasn't in this debate. He's the only one with any conviction. Although, I like Dodd too.
dan @ 2:
Doh!
Al Hidalgo @ 115:
Please feel free to submit my post to the Register or to Dennis. I've written Dennis many times with slogans, talking points etc. One time I heard him say something that sounded like something I wrote.
Bush and Cheney get a free pass on illegal wiretapping and lying us into war and Kucinich can't be heard because of some office technicality? There's something rotten here.
Old Billy @ 118:
I did put an (s) on the end of the word requirement. I could've made my list much longer and more indicting. I took it easy on Hillary, Barack and John, trust me.
is there a video of this debate up online anywhere? i missed it!
When they give Dennis a chance to speak he doesn't sound like a presidential candidate because he actually has well-defined positions on the issues:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWymRNyHuoU
He's not at the debate because he had an employee in Iowa working out of home instead of a rented office space? Absurd and undemocratic.
kaT @ 75:
The "Democrats" are still too far right and don't do what they say they will when we elect them. Dennis is about the closest candidate to the center and the only viable one left of Center. I'm surprised the debate stage doesn't tip over with everyone leaning so far right.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/usprimaries2008
Are you seriously suggesting that the 73rd of 412 Democratic debates is a bigger news story than a bombshell whistle-blowing story pertaining to America's pastime?
cg @ 127:
um...yeah. one has to do with the next leader of our country -- the other has to do with drugs and baseball. i vote for information about our next potential president over hearing about some guys on steroids playing baseball which i really don't care about anyway...
Shameful. Kuncinich should certainly be in if Keyes was in!
D.C. needs a complete overhaul for any change to really happen.... no inbcumbents from '08 on. Wanna scare the DLC... re-register as Independent.
But, but... I love Dennis Kucinich, as I'm sure do many others. It's just not right!
kaT @ 75:
What I find even ore disturbing is how illegal torture appeals to the base of the Republican party. Not to mention no-bid Halliburton internement camps, illegal invasions and occupations of sovereign nations, lying, corrupting the American Jucicial system... need I go on. And this isn't even a few fringe voters, it's your majority!!!! Who is sick here??????
Dr. Acula @ 97:
Hell yeah I'm serious, and that's the beauty of Instant Runoff Voting. I can vote my conscience without being a "spoiler" or worrying about "electability," or the opinions of people who think I'm bat-shit crazy for voting Green Party at #2, let alone Cynthia fucking McKinney. I have your reaction, "are you serious, SHEESH!" when people tell me they plan on voting for one of the Corporate 3.
I'm sick of the Clinton, Obama, and Edwards trying to be my leader, because I can lead myself. I'm looking forward to voting for a Political Representative who will champion the citizens' interests over corporate interests.
Two of my main interests are ending the War on Cannabis(the fascist infrastructure for the WOT), and redistributing the political power of the two Major Brand Name parties through more democratic election practices such as Instant Runoff Voting.
Funny that you picked on McKinney though. I though I would catch more flak for putting a Socialist @4. ;-)
The rules set by the paper were subject to interpretation, and I have no doubt that if the other candidates and/or the DNC had wanted Kucinich and Gravel in the debate, they would've been in the debate. Hillary and Edwards were overheard at an earlier debate conspiring to exclude Kucinich, and it appears they found a way to get what they wanted.
On the contrary, it's completely logical. The Democratic Party has been taken over by Republicans. It follows that if I continue voting Democratic, I will only be helping to destroy the possibility of a political alternative in this country.
I like Kucinich. I agree with him more than any other candidate BUT if he can't meet the incredibly low criteria to be in the debate he isn't going to ever be elected to office. If you want to be president you have to prove you can get the job done. President ain't bean bag. It's cutthroat, real life, make it happen stuff. I love you Dennis but you're not even close.
From the Des Moines register, post debate:
"There were pluses and minuses to the format. On the plus side, minor candidates Dennis Kucinich and Mike Gravel were not invited to participate because they are not running credible campaigns in Iowa. The Republican debate suffered because Alan Keyes was invited to participate in that event and he became a sideshow. Keeping Kucinich and Gravel out of the Democratic debate left more time for the serious contenders and fewer distractions for the viewers."
From the Kucinich campaign:
"Instead of imposing a poll tax or requiring proof of land ownership to participate in the democratic process, the Des Moines Register has established a new requirement: renting commercial real estate"
LVogt @ 135:
He met the criteria. The one the Des Moines Register said he did not meet was:
3. Candidates must have had a campaign office inside the State of Iowa as of October 1, 2007
It did not stipulate that it must be commercial real estate and not someone's donated home which is why Kucinich was excluded.
equilibrio @ 133:
Bingo! Well said.
WE THE PEOPLE must mind and remember to take NOTES; the names of establishments (media or otherwise) that are blatantly using manipulative techniques to marginalize or at worse omitting ligitimate candidates that they determined "UNPOPULAR", "UN-electable", "un-viable" rather than pressenting and including ALL candidates for the voters to judge and determine for themselves.
It is CLEAR that media is supporting only the candidates that HAS the most campaign MONEY to BILK or those that clearly has the backing of CORPORATION. This is all ready FACISM in ACTION. Bias, manipulative, highly controlled media hypes that does NOT serve ALL of its candidates and voters. This is already appearing to be the beginning of facisms in action. This IS not the Democracy WE the PEOPLE are familiar to. It's time to BOYCOTT.
Vote for Kucinich 2008
LVogt @ 135:
dennis could well afford to rent office space in shitty states like iowa but hes not sucking off money from the corporations like the rest!
this I thought was the best clip...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv7K8S4kGQM
I've watched all the debates dem and rethug, but I skipped this one. No Dennis K, no need to watch.
At least Kos came out for Obama...since he'll have lotsa money.
That's the face of today's sell-out Democratic party.
I thought is was newsworthy how the candidates answered the question regarding their priorities for their first year in office. Both Obama and Edwards said they would begin work to make available comprehensive health care for all Americans. Hillary made no such promise. The only thing she said she would do with respect to health insurance was to sign the children's health insurance bill that Bush has now vetoed twice. It is critical that the 47 million uninsured Americans and the more than 16 million Americans who have completely inadequate health insurance know that Senator Clinton has no intention of dealing with increasing access to health care for uninsured and underinsured Americans in her first year. For those who want universal coverage, only Edwards and Obama have pledged to begin work immediately, which will be required if they are serious about getting this done.
don’t hate me: Here is the letter I sent to the Des Moines Register (with a few slight modifictions, especially regarding the MCA, just to be fair (as much as I would have loved to include it):
Dear Editor, Des Moines Register:
In light of the fact that Dennis Kucinich was unfairly excluded from Thursday's Des Moines Register Democratic Debate for dubious requirements (since when is a home campaign office not a viable office, especially when such business is legitimate according to the IRS? Or is the Register now in the business of renting commercial real estate?! Well, it's obvious this "criteria" was simply enforced to further marginalize Congressman Kucinich (once again!) by the corporate-owned mainstream media - shame on you. And you invited Alan Keyes? Alan Keyes?!!), I offer you the REAL requirements to be included in the debate (and according to the candidates on the stage Thursday, they ALL meet these with flying colors):
(1) Voted for the Patriot Act 1 and/or 2
(2) Has given George W. Bush authorization for the Iraq War
(3) Has funded the war without question
(4) Has taken bucket-loads of money from Corporate Donors
(5) Makes sure insurance companies make billions from your health insurance plan
(6) Refuses to Defend the Constitution and uphold their oath
The Des Moines Register: God Bless American Fascism!
Sincerely,
Al Hidalgo
Cincinnati, Ohio
Comments are closed on this entry