Democracy Now! A Rendition Victim Tells His Story
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Heather mashed up this clip from DemocracyNow!'s Amy Goodman interviewing Mohamed Bashmilah, a Yemeni citizen who found himself renditioned to one of the CIA's black sites, tortured for days and forced to sign a false confession. It should be noted for all the torture apologists who buy into the ridiculous notion that it is better to torture a terrorist than to potentially allow Americans to die in some attack, that Mr. Bashmilah was released and NEVER charged with anything. These were violent, criminal acts committed upon an innocent man by our government.
Mohamed Farag Ahmad Bashmilah, a victim of the CIA rendition
program—kidnapped, held in secret jails, and tortured—speaks out in his
first broadcast interview. In the fall of 2003, Bashmilah was detained
in Jordan and turned over to the CIA. He was eventually flown to a
secret prison he later found out was in Kabul, Afghanistan. In CIA
custody, Mohamed says he was held in a freezing-cold cell, interrogated,
shackled, force-fed and subjected to sleep deprivation and loud music
for days. He attempted suicide at least three times. He talks about his
interrogators and the American psychiatrists or psychologists who also
played a role. Bashmilah has brought a lawsuit against Jeppesen
Dataplan, a Boeing subsidiary, accused of abetting his kidnapping.
An ex-Boeing employee acknowledges his and his company's role in these renditions.
(h/t miss kitty)
The full interview is available at DemocracyNow!'s site. Transcripts below the fold
AMY GOODMAN: Today, a Democracy Now! broadcast exclusive. A victim of the CIA rendition program—kidnapped, held in secret jails and tortured—speaks out in his own words. His name is Mohamed Farag Ahmad Bashmilah, one of hundreds of men to have passed through the CIA’s so-called “black sites.” Today, he tells his story.
A citizen of Yemen, Mohamed came to Jordan with his wife in the fall of 2003 to arrange surgery for his ailing mother. He was living in Indonesia at the time. Jordanian authorities took him into custody shortly after seizing his passport. There, he says he was tortured, threatened and forced to sign a false confession. He was turned over to the CIA within days and flown to a secret prison he later found out was in Kabul, Afghanistan.
In CIA custody, Mohamed says he was held in a freezing-cold cell, interrogated, shackled, force-fed, subjected to sleep deprivation and loud music for days. He attempted suicide at least three times. He talks about his interrogators and the American psychiatrists or psychologists who also played a role.
Mohamed has brought a lawsuit against a Boeing subsidiary accused of abetting his kidnapping. The American Civil Liberties Union is suing Jeppesen Dataplan on behalf of Mohamed and four other victims of CIA kidnapping and torture. The lawsuit accuses Jeppesen of providing direct logistical support for the CIA flights.
Yesterday, I spoke to Mohamed Bashmilah on the phone from his home in Yemen, in his first broadcast interview. We’re going to play that interview in a moment, but first I want to turn to Meg Satterthwaite. She is director of the International Human Rights Clinic at New York University Law School. She’s Mohamed Bashmilah’s attorney, joining us from Washington, D.C. Welcome to Democracy Now!, Meg Satterthwaite.
MEG SATTERTHWAITE: Thank you very much.
AMY GOODMAN: Talk about the significance of what Mohamed Bashmilah describes happened to him.
MEG SATTERTHWAITE: So, one of the reasons that Mohamed Bashmilah’s story is so important is that he is one of a very small number of individuals to have actually come out of the so-called “high-value detainee” program. This is a program that targeted individuals who were suspected of being quote/unquote “high-level al-Qaeda” members or had associations with such members. Mohamed is one of very few people who was later released from that program, rather than being sent to Guantanamo. And for that reason, he is able to tell about some of the black sites that, really, we haven’t heard much about from any perspective outside of the US government perspective.
AMY GOODMAN: He was never charged and then ultimately released, after being—
MEG SATTERTHWAITE: That’s correct.
AMY GOODMAN: —held in—the last jail was in Yemen for ten months, he says, at the behest of the Americans.
MEG SATTERTHWAITE: Right. So he was never charged by the Americans in any way. In fact, he still doesn’t know to this day why the Americans picked him up and why they requested his transfer from Jordan. He was charged finally by the Yemeni government. When he was transferred to Yemen, the Yemeni government has said that they were told to hold him on behalf of the US government. They later received a file from the US government, and essentially they felt that they didn’t have any evidence that he was a terrorist, so they interviewed him and they found that he admitted to using a false identity document at one point when he was in Indonesia, and they charged him with forgery. They then sentenced him to time served, and they counted the time that he spent in secret prisons abroad.
AMY GOODMAN: Meg Satterthwaite, why is he and the other men who you’re representing suing this Boeing subsidiary, Jeppesen?
MEG SATTERTHWAITE: So the Jeppesen suit, which was brought by the American Civil Liberties Union, is a suit that challenges corporate complicity in the rendition and secret detention program. And the point here is to show and to try to stop the complicity of regular corporations in the secret detention and forced disappearance program.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re talking to Meg Satterthwaite, director of International Human Rights Clinic at New York University Law School. And what is the Boeing subsidiary’s response—Jeppesen?
MEG SATTERTHWAITE: Well, we actually haven’t had a response from the defendant, Jeppesen, in this case. What has happened instead is that the US government has made a motion to intervene, and they’ve also at the same time made a motion to dismiss the lawsuit or to get a summary judgment granted in their favor on the basis of the state secrets doctrine. So the idea is the US government needs to come in and say, “Wait, we can’t forward with this case. We can’t even go forward to have a response from the defendant, because the issues in the case are so linked to national security that the entire case must be dismissed on the basis of state secrets.”
AMY GOODMAN: Meg Satterthwaite, we’d like you to stay with us. We’re going to turn now to the interview that I did with Mohamed Bashmilah. Fuad Yahya provided the translation. I spoke to Mohamed at his home in Yemen. He began by talking about his initial capture in Jordan before he was turned over to the CIA.
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MOHAMED FARAG AHMAD BASHMILAH: [translated] It was approximately six days, but what I endured there is worth years. They took me there, and in the evening they started their interrogations process. They started putting some psychological pressure on me. They wanted me to confess to having some connections to some individuals of al-Qaeda. They tried several times to get me to confess, and every time I said no, I would get either a kick, a slap or a curse. Then they said that if I did not confess, they will bring my wife and rape her in front of me. And out of fear for what would happen to my family, I screamed and I fainted. After I came to, I told them that, “Please, don’t do anything to my family. I would cooperate with you in any way you want.”
AMY GOODMAN: CIA torture and rendition victim, Mohamed Farag Ahmad Bashmilah. He was speaking to me yesterday from his home in Yemen. We’ll come back to this interview in a moment.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: We return now to this broadcast exclusive, the interview with CIA torture and rendition victim, Mohamed Farag Ahmad Bashmilah. I spoke to him at his home in Yemen late yesterday and asked him to talk about his transfer to CIA custody after his detention in Jordan.
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MOHAMED FARAG AHMAD BASHMILAH: [translated] They took me at 1:30 in the morning out of the detention facility. I was told that I was being released. I was cautiously optimistic, because how could someone be released at 1:30 in the morning?
They took me to the room where I deposited my belongings. And my belongings consisted of my passport, $200, an ID card and my wedding ring. I signed receipt of these items, but they were not given to me. They were put inside an envelope. In addition, they put also the paper that I had signed, the confession, which was essentially a false confession.
While we were walking out, I asked one of the guards where I was being taken and where is my family? At that time, my heart was in distress. I felt there was something wrong, there was some kind of a conspiracy regarding my fate.
At that time, the guard lifted the blindfold partially so that I would speak to the interrogator, and I saw another man who had a Western look. He was white and somewhat overweight and had dark glasses on. I realized then that they were probably handing me over to some other agency, because during the interrogations I had with the Jordanians, one of the threats was that if I did not confess, they will hand me over to American intelligence. At that time, I did not take that threat seriously, because they had threatened me before that they would rape my wife, so I thought this was just psychological pressure. But at this moment, I realized I was being handed over to some other parties.
When we left the building and we got into the vehicle and the vehicle started to move, so I realized if the vehicle turned left and then turned right, that would mean that I was being taken to the airport, and that could mean that I would be handed over to some other parties. On the other hand, if the vehicle turned left and then turned left again, then that would mean that we were going to the city center, and that could mean that I was being released. I could not see or hear, but I could feel the movement, and the vehicle went into the direction toward the airport. I became increasingly afraid, increasingly worried, because I was being handed over to some other parties, and I didn’t understand why.
When we arrived at the airport, they took me to a hall. And without any precautions or anything, I felt that I was being pulled violently by some other people. They took me to another room. They started tearing down my clothes, from above all the way down. And I was being stripped completely naked. They started taking pictures from all directions. And they also started to beat me on my sides and also my feet. And then they put me in a position similar to the position of prostration in Muslim prayer, which is similar to the fetal position. And in that position, one of them inserted his finger in my anus very violently. I was in terrible pain, and I started to scream. When they started taking pictures, I could see that they were people who were masked. They were dressed in black from head to toe, and they were also wearing surgical gloves.
And then, they started in the process of preparing me for travel, and that consisted of putting a diaper on me. And then they put pants, which went down to below the knee, and a top with the sleeve to the middle of the forearm. And then, they also put some gauze on my eyes. And then they put what looked like headphones on my ears—sorry, these were not headphones; they were like little plugs inside the ears, plastic. And then they put gauze on that, on the ears. And then they taped that with very strong adhesive tape. And then they put a hood over my head. And then, on top of that, they put a headphone. This is as far as the top of my body was. And then they handcuffed me with a chain, and also they chained my ankles. Then they put a belt above the pants, and then they tied the hands and the ankles to that belt. This was after being slapped and kicked until I almost fainted.
And then they took me into an aircraft, and they had me lie down on the floor of the airplane. Then they strapped my legs at my chest so that I wouldn’t move right or left. The aircraft flew for about two-and-a-half to three hours. And I was in such a terrible psychological state, only God could determine. There was a lot of physical pain because of what I had endured, and also all the thoughts regarding what might happen to my wife and my mother. This is knowing that my mother was seriously ill, and my wife could not speak Arabic very well so she could be of much help to my mother. And so, throughout this flight, I was in some kind of a coma, and I would come to and I would faint and come to. And so, during those times when I was thinking of my wife and mother, I would be distracted from the pain, and then the pain would distract me from the thoughts to my wife and mother.
About three hours later, we landed somewhere. And then some [inaudible], and they handled me very roughly. They took me to a detention center. I was in a very poor psychological state. Then they took me to a room where they took my weight, and they examined my eyes and my ears. Then they put me in a solitary cell.
AMY GOODMAN: Were you beaten in this place?
MOHAMED FARAG AHMAD BASHMILAH: [translated] In this place, I was not beaten. They did not seem to have anything that indicated that I should be treated that way. In addition to that, they could see that I was in a terrible psychological state. It did not make any sense to pressure me in interrogations.
I was terribly agitated, and I was crying inconsolably, thinking of my mother and my wife. Also, I was thinking what they were thinking—why would they take me from one detention center to another? And I remained in this cell for three months, during which I had no relief at all, despite the fact that they brought a number of psychiatrists, in addition to the general practice physician there.
AMY GOODMAN: Mohamed, who were you being held by here?
MOHAMED FARAG AHMAD BASHMILAH: [translated] Based on what the Jordanians had told me, that they would hand me to American intelligence, in addition to the interrogators in this place who came to see me with interpreters, I realized quite certainly that I was being held by American intelligence.
AMY GOODMAN: What clues did you have? Why did you think American?
MOHAMED FARAG AHMAD BASHMILAH: [translated] Some of the interrogators would come to me and interrogate me in the interrogation room, and they would tell me, “You should calm down and be comforted, because we’ll send all this information to Washington.” And they would say that in Washington, they will determine whether my answers are truthful or not.
AMY GOODMAN: Mohamed Farag Ahmad Bashmilah, speaking to us from Yemen, CIA torture and rendition victim. We’ll come back to this conversation with him in a minute.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: We return to the last part of my interview with Mohamed Farag Ahmad Bashmilah, the CIA torture and rendition victim. In the previous excerpt, he described his ordeal while he was sent to the secret CIA prison in Afghanistan. I asked him to talk about the conditions at that prison.
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MOHAMED FARAG AHMAD BASHMILAH: [translated] In the beginning, it was totally dark. It was as if you were inside a tomb. Then, after that, they would turn a light on. Above the door, there was a camera. And there was constant loud music.
AMY GOODMAN: What kind of music?
MOHAMED FARAG AHMAD BASHMILAH: [translated] It was loud Western music, and it was very noisy.
AMY GOODMAN: In English?
MOHAMED FARAG AHMAD BASHMILAH: [translated] After a while, they switched to Arabic music.
AMY GOODMAN: How loud was it?
MOHAMED FARAG AHMAD BASHMILAH: [translated] It was loud enough so that you could not hear what happens in the other cells when the doors opened and closed.
AMY GOODMAN: Did you hear other prisoners?
MOHAMED FARAG AHMAD BASHMILAH: [translated] Yes, I heard other people very clearly, because sometimes there would be power outage, and during that time the music would stop and you could hear the other people.
AMY GOODMAN: What did you hear?
MOHAMED FARAG AHMAD BASHMILAH: [translated] Sometimes I would hear a call for prayer, and sometimes I hear them conversing about this new person who has just arrived, and that’s me, because I didn’t talk. So I would hear them once in a while.
AMY GOODMAN: What language were your guards and the interrogators speaking?
MOHAMED FARAG AHMAD BASHMILAH: [translated] The guards would not speak a single word, but the interrogators spoke in English, and they had interpreters with them.
AMY GOODMAN: Did you try to hurt yourself in this cell?
MOHAMED FARAG AHMAD BASHMILAH: [translated] During these three months in this cell, I tried hurting myself three times, because I could not take it in that place, because I had not done nothing wrong.
The first time, I tried to pull some thread from the blanket, trying to fashion a rope to hang myself. I tied it to the window that was opposite to the door, where the sound of music would come. I think they saw me through the camera, so the guards came and stopped me.
After a while, I collected some of the medicine that they were giving to me every day. I kept a number of these pills, about twenty, and then I dissolved them in a cup of water. But it just happened that at that time, the guards came, and it was just the wrong time.
And the third time was, I tried to slash my veins with a piece of metal that I had. But this piece of metal was not sharp enough, so I injured myself, but the wound was not deep enough.
Because of the recurrence of these incidents, then they started having the psychiatrists see me. And what these psychiatrists did was just give me the opportunity to speak and express myself. And the therapy mainly consisted of trying to look at my thoughts and try to interpret them for me, and in addition to some tranquilizers whenever they thought I needed some.
There was one time also when I started beating my head against wall. And then what happened was, they brought me a helmet, similar to what people wear when they play golf. So all of my attempts were unsuccessful.
AMY GOODMAN: Mohamed, why did you try to commit suicide three times?
MOHAMED FARAG AHMAD BASHMILAH: [translated] The main thing was that I had not done anything that would call for being transferred from one prison to another and to endure such suffering. In addition to that, knowing that my mother was seriously ill, and she and my wife were in a foreign country—imagine any mother having her son snatched away from her and taken away, even for just one week. Imagine what this person would suffer and how the mother would suffer also. This made me want to have nothing to do with life anymore.
AMY GOODMAN: How long were you held in Yemen?
MOHAMED FARAG AHMAD BASHMILAH: [translated] Ten months.
AMY GOODMAN: Were you tortured there?
MOHAMED FARAG AHMAD BASHMILAH: [translated] I was not tortured. I was questioned about the places where I had been detained, which, of course, I didn’t know. There was no need to torture me or even ask me about anything else in terms of violations of the law or anything. My detention in Yemen, as far as I could determine from what was written in the press, was at the behest of the Americans.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you describe finally being released to your family?
MOHAMED FARAG AHMAD BASHMILAH: [translated] My joy was indescribable. I could not believe that I was going to be released. As much as I was happy to be released and to be reunited with my wife and mother, I was also worried about what my wife and mother had endured during my absence. I did not tell them what I had suffered in Jordan or elsewhere.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you have a message for the American people?
MOHAMED FARAG AHMAD BASHMILAH: [translated] I believe that the American people are helpless during the administration of George Bush. When I was in detention, I would speak to the interrogators, and I told them that the policies of George Bush was wrong, especially sending American people to areas where they don’t belong. And I told them that it seems that the policy consisted of addressing wrongs with wrongs. I didn’t know that one day when I would be released, I would find out that there are American victims of this policy, as well.
AMY GOODMAN: Mohamed, did they ever charged you with anything?
MOHAMED FARAG AHMAD BASHMILAH: [translated] I was not charged with anything. This is what I have found. I was handed to Yemen, and they asked them to detain me.
AMY GOODMAN: Did you have any communication with your family?
MOHAMED FARAG AHMAD BASHMILAH: [translated] And there were no charges against me.
AMY GOODMAN: Did you have any communication with your family from Jordan to the time you were released?
MOHAMED FARAG AHMAD BASHMILAH: [translated] I could not contact my family or any human rights organization or the Red Cross or any agency, other than my interrogators, the doctors and the psychiatrists.
AMY GOODMAN: Did the Red Cross ever visit you?
MOHAMED FARAG AHMAD BASHMILAH: [translated] They never did. I wished they did.
AMY GOODMAN: So you did not speak to your family, even when you were ten months in Yemen in jail?
MOHAMED FARAG AHMAD BASHMILAH: [translated] After a month and a half of being in Yemen, I was able to communicate with my family.
AMY GOODMAN: Why did the Yemen authorities hold you?
MOHAMED FARAG AHMAD BASHMILAH: [translated] They said this was at the behest of the US authorities.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you have any message for other prisoners who are held at places like Guantanamo or the same prisons you were held in, who remain there?
MOHAMED FARAG AHMAD BASHMILAH: [translated] I want to tell all prisoners in all places that one day truth and justice will prevail. They want to be released, but their jailers want to keep them, and God has a plan for them.
AMY GOODMAN: Mohamed, I want to thank you for taking this time to tell us your story.
MOHAMED FARAG AHMAD BASHMILAH: [translated] You’re welcome. It is my duty to sit here and express what has happened to me and also to hope that no one else will endure the same.
AMY GOODMAN: Mohamed Bashmilah, he was a victim of CIA rendition, imprisoned at black sites run by the CIA. I spoke to him at his home in Yemen, telling his story for the first time in a broadcast interview. He was translated by Fuad Yahya.
Mohamed Bashmilah’s lawyer, Meg Satterthwaite, is still with us from Washington, D.C. You have brought a suit on his behalf. You are not, though, suing the US government. You are suing Jeppesen for being part of extraordinary rendition, is that right, Meg?
MEG SATTERTHWAITE: That’s right. First, I’d just like to clarify that the suit was actually brought by the American Civil Liberties Union, and I’m co-counsel in the case, representing Mohamed Bashmilah. The case is against Jeppesen Dataplan for its complicity and essentially for enabling some of the flights that were used to take individuals into the rendition and secret detention program. This is a program that could not exist without corporate complicity. Jeppesen is a crucial example here. The CIA used purportedly civilian planes to avoid certain procedures that they normally would need to use if they used, for example, military planes or official government planes. So the corporate complicity is actually a crucial part of the CIA program.
AMY GOODMAN: And why not the US government, as well, a suit against the government?
MEG SATTERTHWAITE: There has been, of course, several suits against the government for the rendition and secret detention program. The most recent one that viewers and listeners may be familiar with is the case of Khaled el-Masri, also a suit brought by the ACLU. In that suit, the suit was dismissed on the basis of the state secrets doctrine, essentially for the reason that—the CIA and the US government was able to forward the argument that the case was so sensitive it should be dismissed, because it had to do with state secrets.
The point in this case is to say the government has already acknowledged the program’s existence, the President and other high officials have given lots of details about the program when it suited them, so it can’t be that the very basis and fact of the program is still a state secret. It cannot be that that is enough to get rid of a lawsuit about basic human rights and the violation of those basic human rights.
thanks for posting this!
"Torture in the name of the free...
more misery for you and me...
they ship 'em out so we can't see...
the way they bring 'em to their knees..."
-Wackiavelli (from
Judgement Day")
I am so ashamed of my country. I hope these neocons burn in hell for what they have done to America. Shame on us all for having allowed it to happen in the name of "safety". The generations of Americans before us that fought and died for liberty and justice are weeping. Land of the free and home of the brave indeed.
NO!!!
These were violent, criminal acts committed upon an innocent man by our government.
You mean like the Viet Nam War???
[Deleted. Lying flamebait-Sitemonitor]
Big John @ 5:
For starters.
BTW, if any of you noticed the assymmetrical expression on Ms. Goodmans face in recent weeks, it appears she is recovering from a case of Bell's Palsy, not a stroke.
nohobear @ 3:
EVERY single Democrat voting stronghold in America is a hellhole of crime and violence. Innocent civilians gunned down. Women raped. Kids shot and permanently disabled.
Yet you liberals choose to stick up for terrorists instead of people living on American soil in your own Democrat communities.
Talk about f*cked up priorities. LOL!
Ditto to what grape said. Damn, what can be said? This sounds like the shit you hear about happening in some uncivilized country that most of us would have never heard of, but sadly it isn't. :(
I have such overwhelming sadness that this has happened and is happening... how is it that humans can be so cruel... so mean spirited... to do this sort of thing to another being? I've never understood this and I hope I never do. I want those responsible for this... each and every single one of them... held, brought to trial, and delivered the justice they so richly deserve. If there's a hell below, they're all gonna go! At least I can hope...
Stern @ 8:
STFU you troll...
I just can't figure out how the moral of us that are outraged by this treatment of human beings in our name can possibly be labeled on the side of the terrorists. If masked men in black wearing surgical gloves make an innocent man bend over and shove their fingers up their rectum in MY name, that makes me a terrorist too, and I don't care what the assholes over at Fox Noise say in feigned shock. How dare the US do this in my name. I am truly shamed.
Not once did she ask him if he was al-Qaida or a terrorist at all. And not once did he say he wasn't. They kept saying "he was never charged" but then again, lots of guilty people are never charged.
Don't go crying for the wrong people, folks. It gives the Cons just the ammo they need to say we're more worried about being nice to terrorists than we are saving American lives.
So at that time we outsourced our torturing. What did those prisons get for doing this for us?
The man did nothing wrong. He wasn't a terrorist. He was a victim. A victim of a country that went totally insane after 9-11.
How are we being "nice to terrorists" by abusing innocent people? God you trolls have no souls.
What should we call people who capture, imprison and torture innocent human beings?
[Deleted-Sitemonitor]
Edit"...This shit is WHY people in the middle...
"They would bring my wife and rape her in front of me...."
This can't be the same America I USED to admire!
Brawlin Dem @ 17:
Hmm, name-calling. How very big and intelligent of you.
Try reading this article. This man was innocent. Probably a lot of other people WE subjected to this torture were innocent too.
I'm not intolerant of your opinion. I'm intolerant of your jump to the conclusion this torture in our name is somehow warranted, in any circumstance. The United States is supposed to be better than all of this.
Gil @ 6:
thier you go you little turd! its like this you jesus freaks want babys left in wombs untill they come out , then if the woman has to go on welfare to raise the kid your the first cockslucker to say im not supporting that freeloading kid!!!! see how that works out!
Brawlin Dem @ 13:
These comments make absolutely no sense at at all. Mr. Brawlin Dem states that "...lots of guilty people are charged." The assumption appears to be that if there was no proclamation of a crime, then the accused must then be guilty. Perhaps this may seem quaint but the laws of this country state that one is innocent until proven guilty.
He then goes on to opine that "Don't go crying for the wrong people, folks." Reputable sources have said that probably over 90 per cent of those who are in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay are in those facilities for minor offenses, not for being suspected terrorists, and, as Democracy Now! has pointed out, habeas corpus has been done away with during the reign of this George Orwell administration.
Some have said that America is better than this. With examples like this Yemeni citizen, this gives strong credence that the prior statement is actually a lie.
BUSHIES SING ‘RENDITION’ — FROM ‘TERRORIST HANGING FROM THE ROOF’
Stern @ 8:
Care to back up your statements with FACTS? Oh that's right, you can't.
Go home asshole --> Wingnut Central
Brawlin Dem @ 13:
guess innocent before proven guiltys out then huh?
Time out everyone. Breath in and then slowly out. This is an emotional topic and it does make one want to spit and scream. Let's not take our emotional reactions out on each other. Okay? :)
"Leader of the Free World" indeed. Well, OK, not so much in deed, but man we can say we are louder than anybody else you betcha.
Stern @ 8:
Nice bait. If you could only see yourself for the clown, liar and hypocrite you are, you'd internally combust. Alas, you're oblivious.
Brawlin Dem @ 17:
Whatever helps you sleep better at night. That lobotomy sure did a number on your brain.
So, there was just a fire in the "Old Executive Office Building" or, rather, the Eisenhower building, where Dick Cheney's office is. Sen. Wyden, in his testimony during Monday's telecom immunity debate, said that he had seen documents there that incriminate the bush admninistration, and that the Senate should not rule on the matter before seeing them.
Reid agrees later in the day, and decides that the documents should be seen by the full Senate before further debate.
Now a fire in the building? I call "evidence was unfortunately destroyed".
McDuff @ 28:
Feeling a little guilt for backing the coke-addled, white knuckle drunk, lying treasonous POTUS, I see.
Brawlin Dem @ 13:
Stop pretending to be a democrat. Your divide and conquer tactic isn't going to work here. How much do they pay trolls like you now days? Whatever they're paying you, they're not getting their money's worth.
Excuse me, ME dial it back? BD calls me a bitch and alludes to me giving my dad a bj? I've read C&L for years too, does that mean I can start slinging insults at people I don't agree with? I don't see how being ashamed of my country's recent history of torture and disliking trolls goes over any site moderation line. This is fucked up.
[Uh yeah. I reread. You're right. I was mistaken-Sitemonitor]
Brawlin Dem @ 13:
this is pure nonsense. "crying"? the "wrong people"? "nice to terrorists"?
if i didn't know better i would say that sean hannity wrote this.
you might find it acceptable to torture (a la the khmer rouge or imperial japan), but make no mistake about it--it is a vial, inhuman and inefficacious practice.
if you want to reduce america's standing, create more enemies abroad, risk american lives, make it more likely american troops will be tortured, get false information, and stand at the level of torquemada, by all means, keep cheering for torture.
Son of Liberty Says:
Now a fire in the building? I call “evidence was unfortunately destroyed”.
The 1st thing I thought of when watching CNN coverage...But they wouldn't do that...Would they
Doesnt matter if hes innocent or not. Thats what fair trials are for. Even murderers rapists and all sorts scum gets their cases tried in court. Even terrorists like Tim McVeigh who killed 160 people was tried in court. And here CIA is kidnapping quite possibly innocent people all around the world torturing them locking them up indefinatly in secret prisons without charges without contacting their families.
Stern @ 8:
First of all FUCK YOU.
And second of all, you will notice that the people sticking up for the civilians gunned down, women raped and kids shot and permanently disabled AREN'T REPUBLICANS. In fact the Republicans repeatedly use the threat of filibuster and other procedural obstructions in the Congress in order to prevent anyone from passing any law that makes things better in this nation. Your boys are too busy worrying about how many $300 million dollar bridges you can build in the middle of nowhere and how many people ( innocent or no ) they can round up and abuse before you are arrested.
Before you start criticizing other people, clean up your own damned house. Illustrate to me one city that is a Republican 'stronghold' as you call it that doesn't have the exact same problems you describe. Obviously your right wing ways amount to nothing because even in Texas there is crime, rape, shootings and of course right wing Christians bombing abortion clinics and porn shops for fun.
If your team can't even be bothered to OBEY THE FUCKING LAW how dare you fucking criticize anybody else. 90% of the people kept in Guantanamo were released because there wasn't enough evidence to charge them with anything. A number of them were turned in by greedy asshole neighbors ( people like you ) for the bounty we placed on 'terrorists'. Do you honestly want a government with a 90% failure rate to decide who gets to be tortured for their amusement? What you want isn't justice. What you want is vengeance and you don't give a damn has to suffer to make you feel better.
You sicken me! Get the hell out of my country! Go live in Syria if you like torture so much.
We are trying to make it so that nobody, American or no, is ever treated in this way again. Because the next President that comes up the pike that his a Napoleon compex can just turn it around and use it on US. If you wingnuts had half as much brains as you had blind faith in your deity Bush you'd realize that.
And don't try to give me some bullshit about respecting the president. Fuck him. Fuck you. You guys didn't spend a whole lot of time respecting Clinton when he was in office. If he had started this bullshit war and started taking actions that shredded the Constitution and violated the Law you'd be out of your mind with outrage and you know what, if Clinton was torturing people I'd be up in arms about him too.. and I voted for him twice. YOUR President has destroyed everything he's touched and because of that he's just handed all these special powers to Hillary. I hope you're happy with that.
Katie @ 33:
for what its worth, i 110% agree with you
This is so fucking sickening. We AREN'T torturing terrorists. We are torturing human beings, our own brethren on the suspicion of being terrorists. And with the flimsiest of 'evidence.' A name. Doesn't even have to be the SAME name. Just similar. The way a guy LOOKS. Where they were born. Their travel itinerary.
Khaled el-Masri, German citizen, whose capture in 2003 by CIA agents upset US- German relations. Khaled el-Masri has been a "psychological wreck" and has lived in constant fear that his children would be shot for the three years since he was released from an Afghan prison by the US, according to his lawyer. He has been sent to a mental institution for an arson attack on a supermarket.
"[He]...revealed to the American press how the CIA had mistaken him for an al-Qa'ida suspect and kidnapped him while he was on holiday and traveling through Macedonia on a coach in December 2003. Masri was then flown to a CIA renditions prison in Afghanistan where he was beaten and sexually abused by his captors for five months before they realised they had detained the wrong person." They also discussed killing him because they fucked up. They told him, when they released him on a road near the border between Macedonia and Albania: "Don't bother telling anybody what happened to you - they won't believe you."
Maher Arar Syrian-born Canadian citizen was stopped by U.S. authorities at New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport in September 2002, as he returned from a vacation in North Africa en route to his home in Canada. He was detained in solitary confinement for nearly two weeks, interrogated, and denied meaningful access to a lawyer.
The U.S. then flew him to his native Syria against his will.
Iraqi citizen Bisher al-Rawi alleges that in 2002 he was detained while on a business trip in Gambia and flown to Afghanistan, where he was interrogated and tortured in a US-run prison.
Yemeni citizen Mohamed Farag Ahmad Bashmilah said that he was arrested in Jordan in 2003 while visiting his mother and then flown to Afghanistan by the CIA. Bashmilah said he was interrogated and tortured for six months at Bagram Air Base .
This is only 4. Four mistakes. Four mistakes, that had they been committed against US citizens (like waterboarding) would have the CheneyBushCo asswipes ready to bomb the country perpetrating the action.
There are more, known and unknown. For this reason alone, the entire admin should be impeached and tried in an international court. "I didn't know" and 'I was following orders" are not arguments for innocence. We've all known this has been going on. And if I've known it for years, I can guarantee that POS squatter in the White House has known it too.
Thanks for posting this, C&L.
Damn if even 1/2 of this is true, then all I can say is "All Hell's Breakin' Loose" KISS
I have a question, please: How is Democracy, Freedom, Liberty, Justice, and all the rest of the American pantheon of supposed values/morality/LINGO advanced by our tax dollars paying for people to RAM THEIR FINGERS UP THE ASSES OF CAPTURED FOREIGNERS????
How in the name of HOLY FUCK does anything justify systematic finger-ramming up captive assholes????
Merry Christmas! All I want on December 25 is an end to this sick perverted SHITE that proves the folks that do this (you know who you are if you are reading this for the NSA, Perve!) are all a bunch of sadistic, twisted, wanna-be-FELCHERS clamping onto the taxpayer TEAT.
I don't think the issue of this man being innocent or not, but that he was strip of his right to a fair trial. How would you know if he was guilty or not? We no longer can say that "you are innocent until proven guilty",as that was the old America. This bring terror to every middle east descent caught living in America, and abroad that deals with Americans. This should leave no doubt that we have become the terrorist, and much more dangerous than the Al Quieda could ever be. We have the military, the corporate complicity, the Christians fundamentalist, and the funding all that they ever want to have, 9 trillion and counting.
I am more ashame of having troll living in my country that have lack of history knowledge of what it is to be an American as regarding of how our country was founded upon when we broke away from this kind of govt. This is the old British colonialism breathing and operating in the USA.
HSUK @ 35:
No, they probably paid Al'Qaeda to do it. The only question I have is WHY they keep printing out all these incriminating documents. I guess they can really only corrupt a few people, and they have to play nice for the rank-and-file.
According to folks like Huckabee, if you are breathing while you are reading this, you are guilty. Born that way, in fact. Could the religious doctrine of Original Sin/Sinful Human Nature help rationalize certain icky realities, mayhap, perchance?
Has anyone said he's not a terrorist? Anyone? Until you can, don't go calling me a troll or retarded.
See, unlike most of you here, I go into Con forums and go at it with them there. I've been banned from most Cons sites and the ones I haven't been banned from, I've received death threats from people who's jobs it used to be to kill people. I think I can say I know the mind of the "29 Percenters" better than most. And one thing I've noticed is that they love to latch onto anything that will play in the Sticks. Our being worried about a guy who has never said he wasn't a terrorist is the kind of thing they will use. Believe me.
And as much as I love Amy Goodman, it wasn't very good journalism. She didn't ask any hard questions, especially the obvious question. She had no one form the other side and acted as if she was in love with the guy. It was like watching Faux Noise's liberal younger sibling.
So go ahead and call me what you like, but we need to watch what bedfellows we snuggle up with. Does anyone know how bad Jane Fonda made the anti-war folks look when she climbed into that AA gun? Let's be careful not to give them this generation's Hanoi Jane.
He is not a terrorist and has not been charge with being a terrorist!
there you go, now prove me wrong!
[Deleted-Off topic and flamebait-Sitemonitor]
Katie @ 33:
I gotta tell you, in this case I think you got the raw end of the deal. You mistook someone who has apparently commented here for a long time, for a troll. The language he used toward you was personal and totally uncalled for. Length of time visiting this site shouldn't excuse such foul language. I think the dialing back should have been directed the other way. You made a mistake but you didn't use vile language. Everyone makes mistakes.
[I have taken the same opinion Patricia. I have apologized to Katie via email and removed the post that was offensive and am trying to clean up the thread right now. I misread at the beginning-Sitemonitor]
I do not care if he was a terrorist or not. You do not torture people... bottom line.
paranoia @ 46:
I don't need to. Your word is nothing. Who are you? Did you ask him yourself? Have you seen any records? Any evidence at all? Or are you just going by his word? Cuz, lord knows if he was a terrorist, he'd come right out and tell you he was, right?
Too bad Amy Goodman didn't have the journalistic (Is that a word? If not, I want credit for coining it.) decency to ask him if he was or if he hung out with terrorists. So, I'll just err on the side of caution.
You morons act like he's some hero with only one side of the arguement. How does that make you any better than the retards that watch Faux Noise?
As far as what plays in the Sticks, I live in a small town in Arkansas, for Christ sake. The question of whether or not someone is a terrorist is now secondary to the answer that AMERICA CONDONES TORTURE.
That don't play well in the sticks, bud.
What is lost in all this discussion about torture techniques (i.e. waterboarding) is the idea that mere indefinite detention without charge is a form of torture. It is psychological torture of the worst kind. Imagine yourself grabbed up because your neighbor collected a bounty for the capture of terrorists only the worst thing you did was let your dog poop in his yard. Imagine being held for years on end, no contact with your family or any official representative of your family, home, town, county, state, or country. You are just left to rot in jail for who know's what? Is that not torture?
And what of people justifying torture because the detainee is "probably" a terrorist? No evidence of a crime or conspiracy. At best the detainees might be guilty of harboring ill thoughts toward America. But that is a thought crime and not illegal. And were their thoughts ill before or after we detained them? This is insanity.
And what is so damn scary about these terrorists? We were up against the entire Soviet Bloc and didn't discard our constitutional rights and the best these guys could pull off was 3000 killed. It was flashy and tragic and traumatic, but how exactly could killing 1/100,000th of our population in any way threaten the fabric of our country that we would be willing to rend the very same fabric ourselves.
And why would any terrorist come all the way over here to kill Americans when there is a steady supply in the middle east that they can kill much easier.
Two rules: Our folly in Iraq should be funded and supplied with manpower by those who support it. It is a volunteer army after all. And anyone supporting torture should first subject themselves to torture and be willing to be prosecuted for anything that comes out of their mouths, whether it be true or false.
And, btw, I have heard the word 'journalistic' used by most every editor I've worked for -- even here in the STICKS.
Brawlin Dem @ 17:
so seniority on this site gives one license to be a flaming asshat. nice.
[Apparently you haven't read my extreme backtracking, Nice. Try scrolling up, and read the rarest of the rare "Sitemonitor admits mistake, apologizes" Sitemonitor]
Oh, so telling the average American voter that we're gonna start asking the supected terrorist to join us at the Hilton so we can ask him some questions is gonna win our sides votes, huh? PUH-motherfuggin-LEASE!!!
On a side note, I'd like to apologize to katie. My personal remarks were over the top and I'm sorry. I don't apologize for my opinon though.
Brawlin Dem @ 50:
One would think with that watermelon on your shoulders you'd have the capacity to realize that had he been involved in any terrorist activity whatsoever he would have been imprisoned for years, or at the very least would have broken down under torture and confessed. Yet, none of that happened. What conclusions can any reasonable person draw from that?
PS: The only moron here is you. I don't care if you're a democrat or a republican. One thing is for sure. You're a dim witted piece of s#*t.
Brawlin Dem @ 45:
Engaging you on your POINT (and please don't call me a bitch or talk about me sucking off my father, that doesn't help you or anyone else, no matter how buddy-buddy you are with Amato), you're being a bit obtuse. So Goodman didn't grill the subject to your satisfaction. I can see how this could be described as one-sided, but does that make the story untrue? Seeing that many other former "enemy combatants" have the same story, I tend to believe it when another comes to the front. What makes sense? Two admittedly generalized options:
A: He was innocent. In which case we had no right to torture him, detain him, or look at him twice, and certainly not beat him and stick fingers up his ass. Bad option.
B: He was not innocent, in which case he deserved a trial, conviction, and sentence. He didn't get any of these things, but a beating, abuse, and torture before being undeservedly let go. Not a good option either.
I'll cry for him either way, because either way, he got a finger up his ass by someone who didn't have his permission to put it up there.
And apology accepted to both BD and the SM. [Thank you-Sitemonitor] I come here for the intelligent debate and discussions. I hope to stay here for them as well.
Brawlin Dem @ 50:
Fuck off troll.
Brawlin Dem @ 50:
The fact that you're not sure if "journalistic" is a word speaks volumes about your education. Perhaps you never learned the basics of logic and reason, perhaps that's the reason you're making an ass of yourself on here.
"I come here for the intelligent debate and discussions. I hope to stay here for them as well."
Then it might behoove you to not start throwing the "T" word around so liberally. Not everyone who disagrees with you is a troll.
pissed off patricia @ 48:
Sitemonitor, I think you did the right thing this time. And you know what? Drinks are on me tonight for you and for Katie too. Like I said to Katie, everyone makes mistakes. I know it was none of my business to jump into this and I thought long and hard about it before I did. Some times you feel obligated to speak up and I had to do it. :)
[When I realized what I'd done, I blushed to my feet. I appreciate your input-Sitemonitor]
Doesnt matter if hes a terrorist or not.
The terrorist Tim McVeigh killed 168 people and was tried and convicted. This man was kidnapped, tortured, interrogated sent to a secret prison in Kabul locked up for 10 months in a tiny cell, without any contact with his family and he wasnt even charged with anything. And then he was released so obviously they didnt even have a shred of evidence of him being a terrorist.
Everyone is entitled to a fair trial. You are innocent until proven guilty. This applies to rapists, murderers, Nazi war criminals as well as terrorists. No exception.
These are crimes against humanity. I'm of the opinion that the most despicable people involved are the doctors and the psychiatrists who are betraying their oaths and healing principles in order to facilitate these atrocities. They should have their licenses to practice revoked. Every last person involved in these crimes, from the President down to the thugs in and out of uniform, should be put away for life. These cases need to be put before the Hague. Even though Bush pulled us out us the ICC (specifically because his masters were planning these crimes and wanted to evade prosecution), the ICC can still indict the principle architects and players in this abomination, issue international arrest warrants and make sure these monsters never know a day of peace for the rest of their lives. Bush, et.al., belong in prison.
I can't wait to catch all of you [people] whining about things being lop-sided on Faux Noise. You're all going ape-shit over a one-sided "interview." If the Cons had conducted an interview like this, you'd all be bitching about it being biased. But since it seems to fit your needs (to rail against BushCo) who needs journalism, right?
Brawlin Dem @ 50:
The point is, is that it doesn't matter if he was/is a terrorist or not. What was done to this man in the name of American Citizens is vile. That's the point.
You have no proof that he was but yet you are condoning the fact that he was tortured (at least that's the way you are coming off). That's just plain wrong.
Brawlin Dem @ 50:
Dude, i don't fucking care if he was a terrorist or not. If he is a terrorist, you charge him with something and put him before a judge with all the evidence you have and let the judge decide just like every other criminal out there. You don't treat people like this. If this shit went on in Iran or in China everybody and their brother would be up in arms. But it's ok if we do it? Why is that? Because we're favored in some way? Because we're more careful or more moral? Sorry, that's just making up justifications for people who want to commit evil. I don't go around rounding up carjackers and nailing their testicles to a board nor would I ever advocate it.
I can take you and strap you to a plank and waterboard you until you admit you're secretly trolling for 5 year olds at the local playground even when you're not. Torture doesn't work.... it stifles the public discourse here because people begin to wonder how much it'll take before they're rounded up like that too....it darkens the perception of the US around the world... it takes away any moral authority we might have had....it makes our allies suspicious of us and our motivations....it makes our enemies just that much convinced that we need to be destroyed... it convinces other nations that it's just fine if they resort to the same secret arrests and torture......it's immoral any way you slice it... it's illegal and it without the oversight of a body that is not directly answerable to those doing the arrests and torturing it can potentially happen to YOU just as easily as some random schmuck picked up in a foreign country because his neighbor wanted his sheep and $25,000. It's not like this sort of shit hasn't happened before why do you think our founding fathers wanted habeas corpus in the first place? They didn't put it in because they were getting paid by the letter.
Even you ignore the lack of utility, moral, legal and ethical concerns...why the hell would you ever support the torture of another human being when it could be you on that plank too. Or your daughter. Or your mother. Or your best friend. If you let people get away with shit like this then why would they stop with people nobody would miss.
Notice how Brawlin Dem, the coward that he is, never responded to any of the points I brought up. What's the matter, scaredy cat?
It's difficult to influence someones opinion right after you verbally attack them. Perhaps the persuasion without the name calling would be more successful.
Brawlin Dem @ 50:
Whether he actually WAS a terrorist or not is irrelevant, which may be why she didn't ask the question. It is official U.S. policy that we do not torture anyone.
Brawlin Dem @ 50:
on top of your shrillness and confusion, you contradict yourself.
first, you mockingly ask, "Cuz, lord knows if he was a terrorist, he'd come right out and tell you he was, right?"
and then, seemingly not realizing what you just wrote, you write, "Too bad Amy Goodman didn't have the journalistic [yes, it is a word] decency to ask him if he was or if he hung out with terrorists."
you condone torture. fine. just don't expect your insulting and contradictory comments to sway anyone here that torture is somehow a good idea. and, btw, many people dabble in the wingnut-o-sphere. many have been banned. many have been threatened. like me. so, please, drop the holier than thou-ness.
i will give you one thing though. i don't agree with you at all, but you are def not a troll.
I'm not condoning anything. I'm just trying to be the voice of reason (my comments to katie withstanding) here. Everyone is so qucik to jump in bed with thsi guy with absolutely no tough queations being put to him. Hell, she didn't even ask him in a beat-around-the-bush kind of way. He was given a pass and you people fell in love with him.
Brawlin Dem @ 64:
As early as April, 2006, Rendition victims offer accurate testimonies, Amnesty says
pissed off patricia @ 61:
Are you toes still red? Wear socks and no one in the bar will notice tonight. ;)
galmud @ 62:
EXACTLY!
Brawlin Dem @ 50:
I am taking his word on this, until I see evidence of his guilt.
Now if he was found guilty, then the torture have render his fair trial useless as all this would be thrown out of court if tried.
as for who I am, I am just a American that value our constitution and the bill of rights as the defining what being an American is all about. The land I live on is just a plot of soil, but it's the American Constitution that makes my soil rich and valuable.
Brawlin Dem @ 13:
Oh God, the terrorists are coming! Run! The reds are under the bed... jeez. Why can't you get it? The 'terrorists threat' is a bunch of hooey that's been manufactured by the big war machine, largely run in your country (and assisted by the UK and Australia and a few other countries)
What about the some 4,000,000 Iraqis that have lost their homes? The million dead, the millions more wounded, bereaved, shattered, ruined??? What about them?
What about the Afghanis? What about them?
Do you KNOW what you're talking about? How many terrorist attacks have occured inside the US? How many terrorist attacks are happening everyday in the middle east?
..... hmmn, didn't think so.
Brawlin Dem @ 71:
It's not really about this particular individual. It's about what our government is doing.
[Off topic. It's been discussed at length. Thanks for dropping it now-Sitemonitor]
And Brawlin' Dem, why don't you scroll up and click the links in my long post to see more. This isn't the only guy. And it doesn't matter if it was this guy, or a guy who actually was a terrorist. NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO TORTURE ANOTHER. In addition, to that, it's kidnapping, unlawful imprisonment and a host of other human rights violations.
Not in my name, Not on my behalf.
Brawlin Dem @ 60:
You're right, not everyone that disagrees with me is a troll. If you've been here as long as everyone says you have, I suppose that makes you de facto not a troll. It might behoove you to act a little more diplomatically if someone else makes such a mistake.
You are not a troll. You are simply wrong, and I apologize for not stating that more clearly.
Lynda from Australia @ 76:
It doesn't have to be true for the Cons to use it, does it now?
Brawlin Dem at #45
You may want to verify your statements regarding Jane Fonda. Granted, it was not the best publicity move to be seen photographed next to that anti-aircraft gun. But that anti-aircraft gun was protecting a civilian target, not a military installation. In case you are not aware, bombing civilian targets is expressly prohibited by the Geneva Conventions and is considered a war crime which is exactly what alleged war hero John McCain was doing on his last mission when he was shot down when he was attempting to bomb a lightbulb factory, which, of course, was a civilian target.
You are quick to vilify Jane Fonda. One would think by your statements that Ms. Fonda would be despised by those who were in the military during the Vietnam War. The facts say otherwise. When Bob Hope was doing his patriotic pro-war, propaganda tours in Vietnam, Jane Fonda was barred by the military from stepping foot in Vietnam. Instead, she and other entertainers toured with the FTA in order to lend a sympathetic ear to what the grunts were going through in Vietnam. Since the FTA was not allowed in Vietnam, the FTA performed in places like Japan, Okinawa, the Philippines to audiences of GIs, where over 60,000 military personnel gave standing ovations to Jane Fonda and the other members of the FTA in the early 1970s. FTA technically stood for Fun, Travel, and Adventure but the enlisted personnel knew the FTA as standing for Fuck the Army. Those in the army and the other branches of the military thought of Ms. Fonda as a friend and ally, because they hated the war and they knew that Ms. Fonda was empathetic to what they were going through in that unnecessary, idiotic, immoral, and illegal conflict.
Try someone else to scapegoat because your attempt to smear Jane Fonda does not stand up to scrutiny.
Brawlin Dem @ 71:
Is Brawlin Dem actually Joe Lieberman? DiFi? Hillary? Get a compass dude, a moral compass.
I'm telling you, if you ask the average American voter (not avowed lefties or Cons) if they would rather toture people or suffer another terrorist attack, they'll choose torture. And I guarantee that's the way the question will be put to them. And when they've answered our side will be the side that gets painted as having "stood with the terrorists."
Be careful who you get into bed with. I'm off to work. I'll try to care enough about what you sheeple say to reply when I get home.
But just keep in mind, you are the left's version of the Faux Noise audience.
Brawlin Dem @ 71:
Voice of reason? If that's what you were attempting, you need to learn to express yourself more precisely., because you are coming off as an advoocate and apologist for torture. Insulting people by calling them "whiners" isn't helping your case at all.
Paece.
I'm not wucik to villify anyone. What you gimps fail to see is that all I've been saying is be careful what ammo you give the Cons. It's like you're all retarded. Do youi not realize this is the kind of shit they love? They will twist it around and use it against us. When they say the left loves terrorists, it will look like we do.
Brawlin Dem @ 84:
So be it then. I guess they better ship me off to be tortured too then, eh?
nohobear @ 3:
i hate comments like these. they are romantic lies about the american past both recent and distant. america was always a place of oppression for those who didn't fit into the elite class. it was "founded" on oppression, theft, slavery, just about every foul thing you can mention in society. remember that it wasn't even more than 50 years ago that people of color and women could even vote. this doesn't even suggest that things have ever been equal after that. as for "neocons". i recall only 1 senator and none of the leading democratic candidates actually stood up to the fisa bill this week. meaning even so called "liberals" were willing to do anything about civil liberties. as well a majority of the democrats and "liberals" gave the neocons and bush the authority and bypass to do what they did to Mohamed Bashmilah in the first place. which is no different than what they did to the japanese, black people, native americans anytime they feel threatened. furthermore , you can expect a repeat of the same events if there is another attack of some sort in the future.
Brawlin Dem @ 86:
You may be right. Yet I don't give a shit. I personally don't calibrate my opinions to conform to the right-wing's idea of acceptable left-wing behavior. That's a losing game, Brawlin Dem.
Brawlin Dem @ 86:
I'd rather speak the truth then live fearful about how some other entity may twist my words into something they aren't.
Brawlin Dem @ 84:
I don't care what some fascistically trained bullshit eating sheeple THINK is ok. Or what they'd choose to inflict on people who are not them. Torture is illegal. Domestically and internationally. And it's an amoral act.
And frankly, I won't let what YOU THINK the cons say keep me from saying what I say. Fuck 'em. Am I supposed to keep stum because someone might lie about what I said? That's what's been going on in this country for too long. Fuck the Reich. Fuck the Reich. It's time to shout them down for a change.
That does not make me sheeple. I think your fear of what others might say has you cowed. Don't put that off on us here.
Brawlin Dem @ 84:
since when are those our only two choices? also, i could have sworn that it was disproven that there was a link between torture and terror prevention in the first place, ie most people that are tortured give false information assuming that they were guilty of knowing anything in the first place.
Brawlin Dem @ 84:
yikes
so the cat is out of the bag. you choose your opinions based on what "the average American voter" thinks? they support torture, so you argue for it?
you name says you are a 'brawlin dem', but it seems more like you are a 'go along with what the ignorant think dem'. so the rightwing tries to paint us into a corner? and? why fear what the right says anyway? they are wrong, and i don't think placating their einsatzgruppen-desire will further your democratic party.
galmud @ 62:
well said.
Nice, Kinda makes you proud to be an American, eh?
Haven't you weak liberal lazy moonbat America haters learned the lessons of 9/11? Here they are for those with short memory.
1. It's not torture when our government does it. And Anything Bush does or orders is legal, even if it's illegal. (He stole that one from Tricky Dick)
2. If it's illegal or unconstitutional, refer back to #1. If you think torture... er, I mean, "enhanced interrogation techniques", sorry... are immoral, you need your head examined because the Wiener Man told me "Liberalism Is A Mental Disorder"
galmud @ 62:
How "quaint".
Damn, I was going to stay out of this after all that, but I can't.
Okay, BD, I won't use the dreaded "T" word, but how on EARTH can you call yourself a longtime regular here and give such credence to torture? Have you READ the articles on here about the perversion of America's leadership in the world? Why do you insist on playing to the terms of the right-wing lie/noise/obfuscation machine? Why don't you argue the points brought to you? What are you so afraid of with being called "soft on terrorists" by Fox? Don't you realize they are being proven wrong little-by-little each day? Why do you buy in to this site being called the "left-wing" Fox by conservatives? SO THE FUCK WHAT???
You may call yourself "Brawlin Dem," but it seems to me you're afraid of a real discussion.
Brawlin Dem @ 71:
The guy was found innocent and had a finger shove up his ass. Any reasonable person would just give him a voice, and hear him out. As for hard question, how about a hard finger up your ass, and then find someone that will ask hard questions, other than yourself.
He was found innocent, so I don't know what hard question you could ask him, unless there was evidence to base on it. Which were none! It amuse me that you would think of grilling an innocent person found no evidence usable against him to be tried in court. I would instead ask the govt hard question for botching justice that were guided by our Constitution.
I keep mentioning the Constitution, and BD has yet to offer his opinion on the Constitution of the US. Or any comment to "being innocent until proven guilty".
So if you were to get a scoop of ice cream and were caught standing next to a terrorist suspect by chance meeting at the Dairy Queen and US govt caught and threw you in a secret prison, then you would have no problem being torture, for it was your mistake that you were caught associated with a suspected terrorist? I mean what terrorist is going to come right out and say they are terrorist. Wrong place and wrong time is relevant in this case, right? It's all about appearance and that should be enough to suspend Habeus Corpus for national security.
I don't think you made yourself clear on what you are not condoning, but keep coming back to reaffirming your comment to Katie.
Chris @ 96:
i've been on blogs and reading/listening to conservative talk too long cause it's hard for me to tell if you are joking or not.
Brawlin Dem @ 13:
I think you're missing the most simple point here. Under US law people have a right to be heard in court. Before they start torturing, they should make some inquiries, and allow him to defend himself. That is still the American way, although you'd never know it now. I mean, if they already had him in custody, give him a chance to defend himself before you lock him up in a black site where they torture.
Brawlin Dem @ 84:
The choice of torture anyone without Habeus corpus on anyone who disagree with the govt(a form of a terrorist attack), or a different form of a terrorist attack?
Now what are the choices, because they both sound the same to me?
Katie @ 98:
BD is a pure partisan. there is no concern about anything but the party.
pathetic, if you ask me.
it is about time you did a story from democracy now/amy goodman. i dont go a day without her. the only place we get the true story.
mister mix @ 100:
I know exactly what you mean. I was worried about my posts [at 95] and [at 97]. Both are sarcastic!!!!
Edwin @ 101:
And PS Obvioulsy he was not a threat and never was a threat or they would NOT HAVE RELEASED HIM!!!!! Think about it, you moron.
Civilized countries don't torture. Period. We used to be a civilized country. Then 9/11 and everyone got scared and decided to let the government do 'whatever it takes.' Now we are a Homeland run by liars, thieves, and sadists. We are the shame of the Western World. We are so going to pay for the last eight years. Even those of us who objected every step of the way. Shame.
Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900):
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster.
Al-Qaeda is a monster. Now, pray tell, what has our government become?
Lynda from Australia @ 76:
Extremely well said. Engaging in fear mongering is exactly what this administration and the Republican candidates [if not also the Democratic candidates] desire to have happen in this country. It is almost as if the political pundits and the Bush administration have stepped out of an old Twilight Zone episode or perhaps from the rantings of the House UnAmerican Activities from the late 1940s and 1950s. What will rarely be heard on the corporate airwaves [even on a show that is not so ironically called Hardball] is that one has a better chance of getting hit by lightening than by getting blown up by a terrorist, especially outside the Middle East and inside the United States. Yet Congress still grants Bush's wish of giving more money for Iraq and Afghanistan as well as increasing the defense budget. Once again militarism is allowed to march ever onward in pursuit of America's goals of imperialism and corporate greed.
Brawlin Dem @ 84:
That's a totally bullshit statement to make. Almost everyone here has said that the principles of habeus corpus, innocent until proven guilty, and fair and public trials with evidence transcend whether he's guilty or not.
The purpose of this article and its comments are not to figure out how this will be spun by the Right. We know that it will be spun by the Right, so for a second we'd like to vent about how horrible the rendition program is because it's most definetely happening. This guys is just another example.
Your name is certainly fitting as you've done nothing but pick fights thus far, but for what? To reassert that Neocons will ask inappropriate questions trying to poke holes in this story? We know that, really we do. Even if she'd asked him all the hard questions he could still be lying. Facts and hard journalism haven't stopped Faux and company in the past why would it now? And you know what, maybe he is lying. Maybe he made it all up and just wants to sue, but that will be figured out in court as facts are corroborated or proven false. Until that time though, his descriptions match up with the several others who've come forward so we're entitled to believe this guy just like the Cons are entitled to believe that he's a filthy, lying terrorist.
Either way, stop acting like an asshole and try expressing yourself without calling people names and being ridiculously condescending.
What does the Bush administration do to prisoners who "confess"? Do they kill them? We haven't seen any trials.
Why on earth does anyone try to reason with some commentors that seem to not understand that torturing is antithetical to the U.S.? You would have better luck trying to find out every secret Cheney has.
I wonder what right wing site he been to that he got kick out of? Can you imagine if we wrote what was in here over there? I know at Bill Oreilly site, that it wouldn't get pass without prior approval of his staff.
Bellah @ 104:
Amen!
this was a great piece,, Amy rocks like no one else,, relentless..
Incredible! Don't miss this news item I just saw at Democracy Now!
http://www.democracynow.org/2007/12/19/military_contractor_caci_accused_...
Military Contractor CACI Accused of Widespread Abuse in Suit Brought By 256 Prisoners Held in Iraqi Jails
"The suit alleges the prisoners were repeatedly sodomized, threatened with rape, kept naked in their cells, subjected to electric shock, attacked by unmuzzled dogs and subjected to serious pain inflicted on sensitive body parts. The suit alleges that employees of CACI directed soldiers to mistreat the prisoners."
Unbelievable... this has got to stop. I'm writing to my representatives in congress.
Every person who blindly supports the vermin in the white house right now should be made to watch films like these. Maybe it would sink in what a bunch of criminals and disgusting excuses for human beings we have running this country. Every member of congress should have to watch as well and since they continue to hand blank checks to the scum in the white house they should be forced to spend their coming break in Washington watching an assortment of programs where they can see what is really going on. It seems they are all in some kind of bubble.
There is nothing new here. America has been torturing people for hundreds of years.It's who she is.Just because most of us have not been on the receiving end does not mean it has not been happening.Until we really open our eyes and face our true history, there is know hope for this nation.The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies, one perhaps of the Right, and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea acceptable only to doctrinaire and academic thinkers. Instead, the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can 'throw the rascals out' at any election without leading to any profound or extensive shifts in policy…. Either party in office becomes in time corrupt, tired, unenterprising, and vigor less. Then it should be possible to replace it, every four years if necessary, by the other party, which will be none of these things but will still pursue, with new vigor, approximately the same policies.
Brawlin Dem @ 86:
Go the FUCK away.
Edwin @ 105:
Yes it was sarcasm! Now go smoke some dope you liberal diper doper babies! ;)
The journalism is impeccable especially when the entire piece is seen with the ACLU lawyer describing the legal issue. Worth seeing but it takes a little attention span. This is the context of the interview. Torture is a war crime and secrecy laws are being challenged.
The allegations against the man, if any, are not the issue.
Please Digg this. If you use firefox you might consider installing the smart Digg button to quickly Digg important stories like this and try to reach a wider audience. (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4878)
Brawlin Dem,
They let him go.
If he is a bad guy, then why?
Maybe your beef should be with the C. I. A. They ultimately believed him. Apparently. The only outrage here is over the PROCESS, which is in violation of everything this country stands for. It violates the Magna Carta, the Constitution of the United States, the Geneva Conventions and our Bill of Rights. IOW, you advocate anarchy and lawlessness to protect your precious behind despite the hard work of generations of your forefathers. Well, your behind isn't that precious to the defenders of human rights posting here. None of our butts are worth that. We are all here for a short time. Our legacy of our respect for human rights is what carries on. You poison it with your "opinions". You will convince no one here of your justification for what happened to this man.
The chiness they torture citizens for thier believes, Christians need a wake up call, because our beloved country may just put you to the test. Would you deny Jesus Christ if your daugter or son was being raped by a group of men right in front of your eyes. Dynacorps has been doing this practice and of course our Sec of Defense is going to deny they know anything about it. So legally they are covered.
We need some damn war crimes trials. Where will our new Nurrenberg be? I vote for Crawford, Dallas, or Philladelphia, MS.
Auschwitz is where Prescott Bush made his $$$.
Why doesn't anyone report this?
Link TV = best channel on television, if you don't have it order it now. It's 100% independent media completely funded through donations. The only channel that tells you the unfiltered truth.
another victim of the Pinochetification of government by the Bush regime
mister mix @ 88:
Mister mix,
Yes to everything you say. But, what is happening now, is unprecedented. In the past, at least the injustices were recognized and over the course of time, the work of the nation was bent to correcting them. Maybe in fits and starts. But over the long run, there was progress. Wrongs got righted to varying degress. and the wrok never ended; it was never thought of as being completed. That's better than nothing.
Now, injustice is embraced as a virtue, oppression as a necessity, evil as a virtue. Those elected or appointed few who remain true to principle, are becoming extinct. It's one thing to try and make a difference, however small, incremental the step or effective the outcome on behalf of doing the right thing. It's an altogether different thing to abandon the effort entirely, or embrace openly whatever the evil of the times ends up being. And, that appears to be the choices our "leaders" are making. That is cause for deep shame, and I'm proud of nobear and anybody else who demonstrates a capacity for that shame. Come to think of it, I like your righteous anger pretty well, too.
mister mix @ 94:
It even applies to the serial mass murder George w. Bush and the war criminals of his administration and our own thugs in and out of uniform who are committing these crimes against humanity.
jesus christ what the Fuck has america become ? - "violently inserting his finger into my anus" for crying out loud, these people haven't even been charged with anything
Stern @ 8:
Stern is obviously quite confused here and possibly doesn't understand some basic concepts of cause and effect, etc.
Chris @ 120:
Is that as clever as you get? It's pretty lame stuff. I'm tellin' ya conservatives just don't get much, do they? The boring people.
"(Let him go!) Bashmilah! We will not let you go!"
- from Queen's, "Bohemian Rendition"
Sorry that joke was in such bad taste, but I couldn't resist....
pissed off patricia @ 9:
Well, you almost got it right Patricia. It most decidedly is an uncivilized country except it's one we have all unfortunately heard of. It's a country guilty of genocide, legalized slavery and use of nuclear weapons against civilian targets. It has performed involuntary biological, chemical and radioactive tests on it's own citizens, even it's own troops. It's the only modern nation to break the Geneva Convention. It is a rouge nation that pays other countries for victims to torture and perform psychological experimentation.
Actually this list could go on for a long time. And honestly, I'm just sick of it.
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