Bill Moyers Journal: America on Steroids
By Nicole Belle Friday Dec 21, 2007 12:26pm
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Bill Moyers finds parallels with the degradation of rampant steroid use in baseball to how degraded our country has become by those seeking quick ways to short cut and short circuit level playing fields.
You don't get a level playing field with performance enhancing drugs, any more than you get an honest government with political action committees and bundled contributions, or a fair economy with some derivatives, hedge funds, and private equity managers taxed at rates lower than their janitors. You get a level playing field only when the fans demand it. Suppose people stopped attending games in large numbers, stopped watching on TV, stopped buying the products hyped by the icons. The leveling would happen, or baseball as a money-making business would die. It's not likely to happen. If we can't organize to stop a brutal, bloody war in Iraq, or rectify an economic system that divides us further every day, we can hardly expect collective action from baseball fans.
There was a lesson in George Mitchell's report that I'm not sure even he recognized. The day Americans don't feel strongly enough about the need for level playing fields to fight for them -- the day when cutting corners and seeking an edge become the national pastime -- is the day democracy will be lucky even to find a seat in the bleachers.
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Words do no good. Democracy in America (at least, the US part of America) is dead.
Can it be revived?
Perhaps, but not by words.
Alone.
The truth...
Sad... but true.
Heh,
I recall the Salt Lake City Olympics, with the US flag from Ground 0 brought in and everything.
Those games were the most scandalous olympic games with regards to steroid use ever.
At least with regards to winter olympics.
And unfortunately this is just the beginning if history is our guide. We could see slavery once again and the wealth and power will be held by only a few "elites". just like in Rome, those elites will think of themselves as demi-Gods or even God and dominate.
My church has just asked all volunteers for permission to run criminal background checks. Not the ones who work with kids, a reasonable request, all volunteers. This is a church that is anti-war/Bush etc. I fear we are dead as a democracy.
I have never been so deeply distressed and depressed about the state of our world.
I am sick and bloody tired of hearing about 'rampant steroid abuse' is baseball. Has anybody looked at the numbers? The big 409 page report? Somebody...anybody, fucking read it before mouthing off.
The report names eighty players. Eighteen of those players played this year, 2007. Here is how rampant the abuse is in 2007. Hum, 18 players divided by 720 major league jobs is, oh wait, um 2.5% for last year. How about from 1999 thru 2007: potentially 6480 major league positions...and 80 named. That's a 'rampant' 1.23%. I wish that ALL our crimes in America were that rampant.
Look at the list. If you are a baseball fan you still may not recognize many of the 80 players named. Why? Because steroids and Human Growth Hormone DO NOT make you a better baseball player!
They can make you bigger and stronger. They can harm you or kill you. But they do not make anyone a better baseball player. They cannot make you cover the outfield better. Do not make you run the bases any better. They do not make you see the ball better, or hit the ball better.
Many professional athletes spend lots of money honing their craft. Some have used chemicals towards that end. That 'problem' has been around since men began getting paid to play. Even Willie Mays used to pop his 'greenies' and Mantle played while intoxicated or hung-over. Villify them while you're at it...tar them with the same brush if it'll make you feel better.
But stop with the 'our game is ruined' because of 'rampant drug use' crappola. It just ain't so.
Suppose, Bill Moyers, that a drug was developed that would make your brain function at three to five time it's current level. That would offer you the opportunity to comprehend the many, many ideas that are just beyond your grasp. That would give you the ability to correct all the miscomprehensions and misunderstandings that exist in your mind. And enable you to learn in one hour what it currently takes you a day of study.
Would you take it?
Would you take it even if it made your testicles a bit smaller?
Would you take it if it offered the risk of your living a day less?
Should you have the freedom to make those decisions?
Even though it would make the playing field you play on uneven?
Be honest, you hypocrite.
Bill is right. The dream of America died quietly sometime over the last few months after lingering in a semi-vegetative state for the last 15 years. People are so narcotized by their processed food, TV-mind control, and delusional consumerism that they can barely muster the will think, much less act. It is over. RIP
Norse @ 3:
And don't forget that the OLYMPIC COMMITTEE ACCUSED THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION OF “DOPING”
Baseball will never change because it's now a completely white corporate sport, even more than it used to be. Look at the numbers of black players over the last 30 years. Then look at the number of blacks in the crowd. Then look at ticket prices...
Preacher Boob @ 8:
Steroids don't make you a good baseball player fool. They just make you stronger. If you can't hit a 90mph fastball sober, steroids aren't going to help. Equating steroids with some kind of drug that makes you smarter is ridiculous.
That's all nice and fine, but if the very system that is corrupt is the one that has conditioned the populace into apathy, then the only solution is to change the system. To do so, you need to change people. Therein lies the rub. How do you change people? It requires lots of money and hard work. Who's got the resources to achieve that? .....Big business does.
I see no way out. Do you?
As long as the we have cable, fast food, and credit cards, we are content to ignore the ills of our nation and the world.
There's an element of "who's ox is being gored" in this scandal.
People have rightly pointed out that there is racism in the way Barry Bonds has been singled out for punishment. No one is proposing that Mark McGuire's record have an asterisk placed next to it.
But SF Giants fans (like myself) haven't turned on their biggest star of the last 2 decades, it's the fans of other teams that have been forming the lynch mob. Now that so many other players have been named as steroid users, I wonder if the mob members will put down there torches and pitchforks and begin to slink away.
anon @ 12:
Speaking of fools, idiot, I didn't say anything about steroids.
No, but steroids make good baseball players record setters.
I think some, however are missing the point. Steroids in baseball was an allegory for the win at any cost mentality of 'murkin life. Sadly, though, I do believe that Bill is being naive, certainly not hypocritical though. The prospect of enhancing intelligence best be left to the pages of fiction, Algernon. No, he is being naive insofar as human nature and it's proclivity to do the least amount of work to get the largest benefit. Our corporatist society enables that fundamental aspect of human nature which will eventually be our undoing.
anon @ 11:
Agreed that there aren't enough black Americans participatin', but there are plenty of black people from the Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Cuba and many other Carribean and Latin American countries playin' baseball. But there aren't many of the latter who play basketball or (American) football, are there? It's a matter of cultural, or sub-cultural preferences.
But there aren't a lot of African-Americans attendin' any professional sportin' events in the States, or, at least from my observations, not proportionally anyway.. That's a matter of economics, imo, and needs to be addressed. But we've been sayin' that for a long time.
--------------------------------
But, on topic, I think it's an appropriate analogy that Moyers makes. Players who enhance their performances by artificial means tend to get paid more because of their directly-related enhanced production numbers. The "enhanced" are stealin' from those who play the game above board.
Thanks Bill.
As has been pointed out before, Brand America lives off of it's hype. Professional Sports are usually a good distraction from the corruption in our Government, except when they are corrupted themselves. So what does the recent record show?
American Cycling, Track and Field, and Baseball have shown institutional problems with doping.
Footballs Super Bowl Champs, the Patriots, were caught cheating. During the subsequent investigation, tapes from their Super Bowl win were destroyed (sound familiar?).
Basketball was infiltrated by the mob. Yes, organized crime is still alive and well.
Some would argue that Professional Sports are a good reflection of the population that supports them. If so, what do they say about US.
I think Moyers has a point, having said that I think he goes a little far with equating the problem with steroids with democracy is a quite a reach. It is a problem that can be linked directly for the need of physical performance, just as it was in professional wrestling the late 80's early 90's (when congress held hearings in its regards). I think that the reason people don't seem to care all that much is because with all the problems facing our country right now steroids in baseball just doesn't seem that important.
John, thanks so much for posting the work of a true journalist and American patriot.
Could we please see more of THIS Bill and less of the other one?
[Spam]
Marc @ 21:
Well, the name of this site is "Crooks and Liars," so Moyers doesn't really belong here anyway.
Alas' the Americans that most need to listen to Bill Moyers will never hear his message.
Wow, that's great. And he's totally right. I saw a great article in The Economist with a picture of Bush that says "Iraq is not his fault. It's OURS." And at the end of the day, they're right.
myiq2xu @ 15:
Well, that's just not true. There were plenty of us, when McGwire broke Maris' record in '98 who questioned the legitimacy. But the McGwire record stood for only 3 seasons, when Bonds surpassed it in '01. So the McGwire controversy, like his former record, were overshadowed by Bonds, then subsequently by McGwire's retirement. And had Bonds retired before he broke Aaron's career total, the questions over Bonds' legitimacy would have faded away in shorter order than has happened, imo.
matt @ 20:
Equating? I don't think so. Analogizing, my man, is a different thing.
Kudos to Moyers. He's one of the deepest thinkers in the business
[Deleted. Off topic-Sitemonitor]
matt @ 20:
Adderal is a performance enhancing drug that is used by Teens and College Students throughout the US to achieve better grades.
I agree that steroids in baseball are insignificant, however pushing artificial performance enhancement drugs for greater personal achievement leads where?
Greater Dependance?
chickfu @ 17:
I was referring to Moyers as a hypocrite only in the hypothetical sense, because I believe that since he is intelligent, he would take the intelligence-enhancing drug, and, at that instant, he would become hypocritical if he did not change his opinion of steroid takers. I admire Moyers, but he is not infallible, and I'm sure he would agree with that assessment, since he is an intelligent man. By the way, intelligence enhancement is not only in the pages of fiction, it exists, today, and will undoubtedly become ubiquitous soon. Will you take it?
myiq2xu @ 23:
True, Billo's presence in quite apropos.
myiq2xu @ 23:
Well if you're going to use that logic, I don't belong here either.
I agree about the other Bill: I don't even watch those clips anymore here because BullO is on his way down and out.
Lollimom @ 32:
I, too, am tired of seeing him and hearing his voice. He adds nothing to the public discourse.
Preacher Boob @ 30:
Oh. You mean he's fallible?
Take the drug, Preacher. Take the drug.
[Quit spamming the threads with the same off topic message. Thank you-Sitemonitor]
LongTooth @ 29:
willyloman @ 35:
If ya don't like the topic there's an open thread here.
Andy K @ 34:
Infallible means not capable of erring, not infallible means capable of erring, you not infallible putz. Wait a minute! Andy K.! [deleted--debate the issues, don't insult the posters. Keep it civil, please.]
[Deleted. Fake tyree-Sitemonitor]
Grant @ 7:
Misses the point mate ... watch the video again.
Preacher Boob @ 31:
Interesting. I am a molecular biologist working in biomedical science and I've not heard of such a drug/regimen. Please do tell.
Different anon.
Hey Bob.
Suppose, Bill Moyers, that a drug was developed that would make your brain function at three to five time it’s current level. That would offer you the opportunity to comprehend the many, many ideas that are just beyond your grasp. That would give you the ability to correct all the miscomprehensions and misunderstandings that exist in your mind. And enable you to learn in one hour what it currently takes you a day of study.
Would you take it?
Would you take it even if it made your testicles a bit smaller?
Would you take it if it offered the risk of your living a day less?
Should you have the freedom to make those decisions?
Even though it would make the playing field you play on uneven?
Be honest, you hypocrite.
...
The unstated point (IMO) is the US has become a nation of social darwinists ... about winning NOT competing. Winning isnt about fairness, its about results. Competing is about process.
We as a nation are no longer about process - habeas corpus, privacy, due process etc - we are about results independent of process.
Its a sad circumstance.
I have not watched the video yet but I have a different opinion. I think the steroid scandal is a sign of how greedy America is and that we will do anything and everything it takes to have success, which success brings more wealth.
In a way I have been advocating for the same thing though as Moyers says with refusing to attend these games. Here in Detroit, we have a football team that is awful and no matter how much they change coaches, players, buildings (thanks city of Detroit taxpayers), they continue to lose in the same way. They are owned by a old, rich, white man named Ford and he knows people are stupid enough to continue to attend games regardless of how bad the team sucks. If we the people would stop attending these games where tickets are nearing $100 and beer is $8 a glass and the players make millions a year, all this would come to a halt.
tyree @ 39:
lol
chickfu @ 41:
Some folks pop ritalin, modafinil, donepezil. I would guess there are others.
Blah BLah Blah, somebody call a whambulance, shut up Moyers, your time has come and gone, go back to the 20th Century...
Preacher Boob @ 45:
If you're a man, and your brain's in your dick, try Viagra.
anon @ 42:
I agree. Ends over means, and the ends are warped by ethical standards, though they conform to capitalist standards.
I totally get it. President Bush is certainly acting like a man on steroids & so are his cronies with their Uberpatriotism.
Site Monitor: Suit yourself. But my comment regarding impeachment- which, after all, is constructed to maintain a "level playing field" in our system of governance- most certainly was not off topic. I submit you were overly sensitive to my explicit criticism of the democratic party's having taken it "off the table", and the corresponding great harm I believe that decision has inflicted on the nation's politics. Fair play has been perverted for (what I consider) the ulterior motives of that political party.
Site Monitor: No, it's because we're in charge of making sure that the topics threads don't go off topic. Moyers doesn't mention impeachment once. There's an open thread available for you to post all the impeachment discussion you'd like.
myiq2xu @ 15:
For a significant percentage of the population, Roger Maris and Hank Aaron are still the record holders.
Preacher Boob @ 38:
fal·li·ble (fl-bl)
adj.
1. Capable of making an error: Humans are only fallible.
2. Tending or likely to be erroneous: fallible hypotheses.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English, from Medieval Latin fallibilis, from Latin fallere, to deceive.]
****************
in·fal·li·ble (n-fl-bl)
adj.
1. Incapable of erring: an infallible guide; an infallible source of information.
2. Incapable of failing; certain: an infallible antidote; an infallible rule.
3. Roman Catholic Church Incapable of error in expounding doctrine on faith or morals.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English, from Medieval Latin nfallibilis : Latin in-, not; see in-1 + Medieval Latin fallibilis, fallible; see fallible.]
***************
Double negative. "Not infallible"= "Not not fallible".
And I've got a problem with your amateurish journey into the field of pharmacology. Two drugs that are commonly used to treat both ADHD and narcolepsy, and a third that's commonly used to treat Alzheimers? Yeah, sounds like a panacea, especially after noting the common side effects- nausea, stomach pains, diarrhea and weight loss. I'm not sure what the exact contra-indications of each of these drugs are, but I'm gonna hazard a guess that anyone who took this type of cocktail would die of dehydration long before there would be a noticeable increase in IQ.
Your treadin' on dangerous ground here, pal, even suggestin' that this might help someone.
John @ 46:
I have heard similar rants from playground bullys. Life isnt (to me or Moyers) about being 'on top'. It has deeper value.
I honestly hope that someday you understand that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-5d5IfdYK4
A 100-year-old Texan is a canny interpreter of "American character"? Which America? What exactly does this guy have his finger on the pulse of? Which generation is he talking about?
I have parents and i have kids: the social & political differences between us are often *vast*, but pale in comparison to those of my cousins living in different parts of the country. That doesn't even count our differences in opinion/experience based on economic circumstances.
"You don't get a level playing field with performance-enhancing drugs any more than you get an honest government with political action committees and bundled contributions; or a fair economy with some derivative hedge fund and private equity managers taxed at rates lower than their janitors."
What in the hell is Bill talking about? He neglects to identify the dishonesty in government that he is referring to. We all know (for example) that Ted Stevens' votes can be bought; but what influence does lobbyist (or PAC) money have on the dishonesty of the Bush administration (as another example)? BushCO was gonna do what they were gonna do *regardless* of Jack Abramoff; might as well make some money while they were at it.
Even if you are completely opposed to lobby and/or PAC contributions, at least they are somewhat of a two-way street as far as being potentially *positive* for some citizens (teachers, small farmers, veterans). There are far more negatively influential forces affecting government.
PACs will never be caught conspiring to artificially control prices. PACs aren't family-owned with a history involving generations in power. PACs don't negotiate illegal deals with congressmen for support of legislation in return for houses and boats. PACs aren't accountable to shareholders; nor do they worry about their credit rating/share price.
Enron; Halliburton; Blackwater; CIGNA; etc.
What does he mean by a "fair economy"? Was it fair *prior to* the tax code currently affecting hedge fund and private equity managers? That has about as much affect on me as the million-dollar bonuses for CEOs of companies that see million-dollar losses. It may piss me off but if you take it away it doesn't affect my pay rate or the quality/cost of my health insurance.
I'm a Bill Moyers fan most of the time, but i shook my through the end of this one as he tried to tie this MLB "problem" with government & economy as in any way analogous to each other. Even if they were comparable in mechanics (they're not) there couldn't be any greater contrast in their importance imo.
Maybe all of the baseball fans out there who are NOT making a big deal out of this are (not) doing so because it's *not* a big deal to them.
The government's interest? It's win/win. They look like they're doing something AND it's a distraction from all of the real problems.
Preacher Boob @ 8:
If I had my way, I would force-feed it to the somnabulant masses in the US that have made everything that has come to pass in the new century possible......but that wouldn't be very democratic, would it?
You're damn right it wouldn't!
It would result in an armed revolution of the kind our part of the world hasn't seen in over two centuries.
Red pill, anyone?
i would suppose you would have to take drugs to sit thru a base ball game! fuck they dont even have cheer leaders!
Mark @ 49:
That's the long and short of it. That was my interpretation too.
Preacher Boob @ 47:
I hesitate to even answer, based on your latest retort and all that it infers, added to the fact that I was being sarcastic. Since you missed that and attempted to pull up some wiki entries, I must, apparently explicitly state that such regimens do not exist. Stimulants do not increase intelligence.
McDuff @ 13:
Roll the
clockcalendar back some 230 years, and get off your collective ass and do something to regain what is rightfully yours: Freedom, self-esteem, dignity and national pride,.................. or do nothing and follow Rome and several other empires.McDuff @ 44:
t
OK, large but useless. But it did do something with your ability to spell. LOL
anon @ 53:
Sorry buddy, it is about been on top, unless you want to be under someone elses thumb.
Real Politik...
amall gib @ 55:
I think what you've missed here is that the PACs aren't analogous to the ball players, but to steroids.
The players are those who use the steroids(PACs) to influence legislation (jack one outta the park), and not only make a ton of money, but to also maintain their advantage over those who maintain the ethical stance of not artificially influence the game (democracy). And if those ethical players refuse to take steroids, they'll lose their jobs in the big leagues(their voice in government) to those up-and-comers willin' to forsake ethics for power.
So the question is, do baseball fans care enough to stick to their principles- that all players are natural and unenhanced byu steroids- to keep their game pure? Does the nation want to adhere to the standards of democracy, where ideas and not money influence governance?
Preacher Boob @ 8:
i'll answer for him... no.
now be honest and tell everyone how you think people are hypocrites for this attitude because you've gone to great lengths to justify such usage for yourself...
John @ 62:
sorry buddy... but you haven't a clue wtf you're talking about... particularly when you can't take those roles with you when you die... you've only proven that you've bought into the illusion lock, stock and barrel...
McDuff @ 13:
ya... education... and for the record, that's a rather defeatist attitude you've adopted... i'm sorry you've had so much dumped on you to make you feel so helpless...
John @ 62:
Ahh, social Darwinism. How many times have ya re-read The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged?
I guess I don't really get it--sure maybe the steroids are a metaphor for American decadence. But who the hell cares about steroids. This "scandal" is just some extension of the bread and circuses mentality that saturates the media and every conversation we have, to the exclusion of anything that might actually matter.
chickfu @ 9:
personally, i think values began to die in the 80's with a reaction against (the naive innocence of) "flower power" and toward materialism and instantaneous gratification... this hasn't been a recent trend... it's been a prolonged event that corresponds in direct inverse proportion toward the shrinking middle class... when prospects for one's dreams in life look bleak, then they choose materialism out of a need for survival... personal and social development can only suffer from this...
"a man thinks differently in a palace than in a hut" - confuscious
Andy K @ 67:
ya... i've read both... and it's quite clear that materialistic types whom rely on these books to further materialistic gains truly don't understand what these books were about... his attitude is not "social darwinism"... it's alpha male pissing to mark their territory...
About the writing.
" In the face of a scandalous health care system, failing schools, and a fraudulent endless war, we are as docile as tattered scarecrows in a field of rotten tomatoes."
pretty awesome.
klunk @ 69:
Sure, I'll agree that it's been going on longer than 15 years. In fact, if you want to be precise, it's been going on since the Gilded Age ended and people were able to wrest some justice from the robber barons. I also agree with your point to another poster about education. The work ethic, for lack of a better cliche, began to atrophy in the 50s because of flush of good jobs and affordable housing. That was the beginning of the end. Human nature allowed us to feel as though the 'good life' was available for the taking and those that could not succeed were either lazy or stupid. A myopic heuristic that endures, even flourishes even today.
tyree @ 39:
will the poster whos useing my name BLOW MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
Site Monitor: "Bill Moyers finds parallels with the degradation of rampant steroid use in baseball to how degraded our country has become by those seeking quick ways to short cut and short circuit level playing fields".
What more effective short cut to power, what more egregious short circuiting of our Constitutional mechanisms exist than the calculated refusal to utilize the impeachment process when our constitutional system has suffered mortal attack? That Moyer's did not mention the actual term "impeachment" in no way diminishes that abiding point.
RockmanEnough @ 61:
PLEASE stick your snide remarks up your ass!!!!!!!!!!!!
klunk @ 64:
Klink, only intelligent folks would answer yes. Try operating at a lower level.
chickfu @ 72:
But there's been an ebb and flow since the Gilded Age. The people were on top durin' the Progressive era, corporate power regained steam until the Great Depression, the people retained power until the ReaganEra, and, by all indications, we're at (or at least approachin') the nadir of corporate power once again.
Not sayin' we don't have to work to convince the electorate so that we can once agin wrest the reins of power from the corporatocracy- and we'll have to work even harder to strangle corporatocracy while it lies prostrate- just pointin' out the cyclical nature of our history over the last 140 years or so.
Andy K @ 52:
Most of the thing you 'know' are not true, and you're too stupid to realize how little you do 'know', which makes you much more dangerous than me, except to yourself. Go back to fluffing for your buddy.
Sorry 'bout the mixed metaphor.
chickfu @ 59:
We have a misunderstanding. First, my latest 'retort' was not directed to you, it was intended as a rather juvenile humorous jibe, for whoever on this post would appreciate it. Secondly, we have a difference of opinion on the definition of 'increase intelligence'. If a substance will enable one to improve recall (memory), improve mental functions such as completing IQ tests quicker, with better scores, be more imaginative, complete mental tasks quicker, more completely, and feel more enthusiastic, happy, and satisfied, I consider that an improvement in mental ability and intelligence. Perhaps there are some ways of measuring intelligence that these substances will not improve, or even effect, and I would agree that we are at the very inception of improving intelligence through chemistry (or other means), but do you seriously doubt that it has begun, and will probably continue at a rapid rate?
chickfu @ 59:
PS, chickfu, I did not 'attempt' to pull up some 'wiki' entries. However, I'm going there now to see what it has. If you attempt proceed in your 'science' career with the kind of assumptions you have shown here, you should try something else.
Preacher Boob:
Once again with the ad hominem attacks. Quel suprise.
Listen, ya frekin' n00b, it's not outside the realm of possibility that two people share the same idea, each having reached their shared conclusion in a mutually exclusive manner. Had you been reading the comments at this site for a while, you might have noted that I'd arrived at my conclusion long before I'd ever begun chatting with Paul in LA.
But our shared belief isn't really what's at issue, is it, ya disingenuous fuck? Your problem is that Paul and I both happen to disagree with you on one point- granted that it's a point that tends to get folks very emotional. But instead of answering our point with a valid argument, you do nothin' but call us names. Ouch. The thing is, you don't ever get to the point, but you attack with more names- again and again and again. I don't know what you said to me earlier, because I had to go let my kid back into his house, but I'm sure that your deleted comment had to do with oral sex.
You got some kind of fixation with blowjobs, asshole? Sounds suspiciously like a ten-year-old GOP talkin' point- which flows right into my theory that your some kind of Rovian agent provacateur. Call me a troll again? Look in the mirror pal. There's one in the basement of the library from which you're posting.
Preacher Boob @ 76:
nice dodge but pathetic ad hominem... try again... if you don't wish to be perceived as operating from somewhere buried deep and rife with methane gas, that is
Andy K @ 77:
that's how i view it, as a prolonged ebb and flow... or a swing of a pendulum... one which bears out as a long-term trend toward increased emphasis on (the) individual (development - freedom - responsibility - independence/interdependence) (toward flatter structures and away from rigid hierarchy).
the reagan era was just not as rosy as the rethugs like to fantasize over... much of the "benefits" ... (ie. tearing down of berlin wall) came as a result of a "human awakening" of issues that were spurred on by the previous direction of the pendulum... and it's taken almost 30 years for this "backward swing" to reach it's "nadir"... now... it's way past time for it to swing back again...
Preacher Boob @ 80:
Instead of contending over whether or not intelligence can be pharmacologically enhanced I'd first like some evidence to support your argument. Please, if you will, link to the peer-reviewed articles on PubMed or some other scholarly search engine that support your contention. No pharma internal research please.
The simple truth is that we are tyros in our understanding of neurology. Muscle function (read steroids) is relatively simple by comparison to neural function, let alone the Gestalt of the brain.
My assumption, while it may be wrong, is that you are not a scientist. This hypothesis, if you will, is buttressed by the fact that your understanding of the scientific process lacks depth. We are not automatons that benignly observe fact. We work Herculean hours for low wages because we love the process. We defend our theories with vigor until the data no longer support such. Forgive me for hypothesizing that you used Wiki instead of some other lay-search engine.
klunk @ 84:
Ah yes, another heretic in the beatification of Ronnie Raygun. Count me in. However, whilest I agree with your pendulum analogy, I think physically speaking that corporate entities exert too much power and have, if not broken the system, increased the period of the swing...perhaps approaching infinity?
chickfu @ 85:
I doubt I'll find any attributable sources by identified medical personnel, since all the uses of these substances for mental enhancement, other than for identifiable disorders, is definitely not approved by the powers-that-be, thus liability exposure could be significant. My source(s) are anecdotal, but one of them is me. And my base for improvement was very high, the Dean of Students at a major university I attended told me that the number of folks in the US who exceeded my IQ, could be measured (approximately) at less than one thousand. I don't know what you mean by the term 'Scientific', but my education is in a rigidly technical field. I suggest that you avoid assumptions, at almost any cost, if accuracy is what you seek, at least until you greatly improve your assumptive powers. And, my friend, whatever your specialty, all of us are 'lay' people who use 'lay' sources in some fields, since we are all ignorant, we just specialize in different areas of ignorance.
eat me, Andy K.
"shut up Moyers, your time has come and gone, go back to the 20th Century…"
Amen!
Andy K @ 63:
I understand BM's analogy; i just disagree with it. If he had singled out *Leadership PACs* his analogy would've maybe made at least some sense to me.
Here's an example:
The EMILY's List PAC is obviously enormous. It has helped 7 governors, 11 senators, and 55 congresswomen get elected. It is the largest financial resource for minority women seeking federal office. In my opinion, this PAC has absolutely helped level the playing field for women who were (and remain) at a _disadvantage_. I see this PAC as being overwhelmingly *positive*.
Who has been handicapped by this PAC (as analogous to those MLB players who aren't using performance-enhancing drugs)? How does this PAC foster dishonesty in government beyond what *anything* involving large sums of money can?
If steroid-use in MLB is a bad thing (assume we all agree on that), how can it be compared to the EMILY's List PAC?
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You have made some really good points in this thread, btw.
Andy K,
That whole fallible/infallible thing is freakin' hilarious, but why are you wasting keystrokes on Preacher Boob? Just stop! Ok? :)
Bill Moyers hits another one out of the park!!
Great commentary. Thank you Bill Moyers.
amall gib-
Second thing first- yeah, yer right. I normally just let these things go, but I've had it up to here(holdin' hand a foot above head). It's outta my system now.
And I get what yer sayin' about good and bad PACS. But there are good and bad steroids, too: the kind that are injected help to build muscle mass(bad) and the kind that are inhaled to treat asthma. The problem is that when ya test for 'em, both types look alike(actually, iirc, they're the same steroids- the method of delivery is the only difference).
So while I applaud Emily's List, I've gotta think that it would be too arbitrary to allow that one but disallow a PAC that represents the petroleum industry. Not that I wouldn't like to see the latter disappear, but without a Constitutional amendment that specifically strips 14th Amendment rights of equal protection from corporations, I don't think it would be legal to allow only the former.
oh the pain of not being pure.
boohoo. geez..get over it.
let them take all the steroids they want.
it's a free county.
and this state of purity is a delusion.
amall gib @ 91:
You give good advice to your ignorant, flatulent friend. I know Preacher Boob, and if he wants to listen to an ass*ole in the evening, he'll eat a seven-bean salad for dinner. Otherwise, it bores him.
YellowSnow @ 95:
Who do ya think yer foolin'? Two separate ISPs doesn't make yer style any different. You should drop both of yer current handles for Wile E. Coyote, Supergenius.
Andy K @ 96:
STILL FLATULATING? I'M WATCHING.
A lot of the Sheriffs deputies in the USA seem to come from the Jock culture judging by their neckless steroided bloated appearance.
Bit scary when theres these hoards of hyped up mentally impaired morons
runningwaddling around wearing uniforms and guns, tasers and such.Moyers for Commisssioner of the FCC.
My grandson just started taking Adderal this month. He has always tested out as being very bright, sometimes genius, since kindergarten. This year he couldn't focus on his homework. We had noticed earlier that he didn't 'focus' as well as he should when playing socker and baseball. He is 13.5 years old and has matured physically this past year. He is totally into video games. My opinion is schoolwork is boring compared to what he experiences in the games he plays online. Also part of it may be the changing hormones of his body and not enough sleep.
I told him he didn't need those drugs and he said that he did, that he couldn't focus without them. He isn't hyperactive, though he was high energy when he was younger. His grades started going down last year and this year he has been making Fs.
The doctor didn't hesitate to write the prescription. We need to get control of this drugs for learning stuff. I worry he will become addicted for life. He is now making Cs and Bs.
So, yeah, there are drugs that can improve your intelligence, by helping you focus. And losing Democracy by distraction may get worse as video games get better. Teenagers aren’t into cars now, they are into game machines.
McDuff @ 44:
is Viagra a steroid? is there long term damage
Thank you Nicole for posting this! ;)
Bill Moyers is always right on the mark. I just love this guy.
Sports, religion, fat dumb greedy population, incessant war....all signs of the brainless sub authoritarian American population. They love to complain about
their plight, when it is their plan. Now, their nasty habits are spreading all over this planet, and their mental and environmental pollution slowly chokes us all. I do enjoy watching their idiotic president wield his unbridled power to steal from them for the benefit of his masters as the American "economy" continues to fall. Great fun!
Please allow me to propose an answer to this problem:
An extra-league: One four steroid users only and one for non-steroid users. Maybe two, one for mixed users.
It doesn't make you hit better (see the ball better to hit), but if you already can hit it(place the bat behind the ball), that extra strength and mass might help just a teeny-weeny wittle. wight?
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