Hated the Zep back in the 70's but am digging them now. Don't know what I was thinking!

I wouldn't go see them anymore...Plants voice is gone....

I saw them in 1975 at The Forum in Los Angeles. They are by far and always have been my favorite band. Jimi Page is a genius producer. What he does with an open tuning and a Dan Electro is inspiring. He and Ike Turner were two of the most underated producers of their time. And I WORSHIP John Bonham. Plant is still good and the last record he released was surprisingly fresh.

It’s hard to believe that Jewish Joe will bend over for this Nazi administration.

http://consortiumnews.com/2007/122707a.html

I saw zeppelin twice in their original form. The audience loved them, then again- the audience was loaded. I love the recordings, but as a musician - they stank - on ice.

In the same era, I saw Buddy Rich (and his orchestra) - brilliant, and Yes (roundabout tour) - amazing. John McLaughlin and Mahavishnu, a legend - and more.

Frankly, the Thompson Twins did a better job in concert than zeppelin.

Love their music - hated their concerts.

Now Cactus - you should have heard Cactus.

The best thing about Zep is that they were truly musicians. It's hard not to look at each individual member of the group and realize they might just be the best artist with their respective instrument to ever play. Of course, we can agree to disagree in certain comparisons, but based on pure innovation... I recommend grooving to John Paul Jones' bass track on "The Lemon Song." Unbelievable. Give it a listen - listen again if it has been awhile.

I saw them only once. At the Atlantic 40th anniversary show. So so.

What always amazed me was how exceptional Page sounds on the first release using a Telecaster.
He then soon grabbed Gibsons - as many would.
But if you sound like he did with a Tele, good God man. Why not stick to the Tele?

Forgot the link ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qia0T2M1LD0

More conflicts of interest from Bush and Boeing. More young adults are suffering from
diabetes. Paris Hilton's grandfather would rather give the dough to charity than to her.

Bush can't even protect his childhood home from an arsonist, and he expects us to believe he can protect the country?

What is also odd is the tribute they receive from "The Song Remains the Same" film.
It could have been called "The Worst of Jimmy Page".
He had a broken hand for godssake.

Check out the live Yardbirds lp or, archive Led live, or- I guess - see them now.
There is no doubt he is as fine as you'll find.
But they had some choppy shows.

The recorded product suggests a band with few better.

got 4th row at the Forum for Physical Graffitti...........one of the best shows I've ever been too....Spent two days and nights in line to get those seats.I drew number 3845....that was my place in line....a friend of mine got busted....so I bought his ticket in line ....202.....so I wen't back to around 6500....and said Hey anybody want to buy this spot in line...got a lot of shit for that...But I said hey I bought this number for 5 bucks....and I'm selling this number for 5 bucks....I still got alot of shit from people..and then one guy walks up and said sure....so he gave me the 5 bucks and I took up to my old spot in line...................oh..and Kashmir was UNREAL!

GeorgeWBalls @ 21:

Tequila @ 20:

Bush can't even protect his childhood home from an arsonist, and he expects us to believe he can protect the country?

Amen brother Beavis.. I mean, look how many times America has been attacked since 9/11! The guy is a disgrace!

well guess you could start with anthrax and go from there!

GeorgeWBalls @ 21:

Tequila @ 20:

Bush can't even protect his childhood home from an arsonist, and he expects us to believe he can protect the country?

Amen brother Beavis.. I mean, look how many times America has been attacked since 9/11! The guy is a disgrace!

Do illegal wiretaps and intercepting of all our Internet wanderings/emails count as attacks? Phony anthrax letters? Suspension of Habeas Corpus? Yes, indeed, just look how many times we've been attacked since (and don't forget, including) 9/11!

Boosh has done more damage attacking this country than ANY other criminal.

ronhohn @ 31:

All I wished for for Xmas was an eolipile. Maybe next year.

i steped in some the other night!!!!!!!!!

The first three are my Favorites..................hasta folks....gn

I would have paid you good money - even fo a stepped-on one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIO8B6fpFSQ

Oops here's the link.

I've seen Page in concert 4 times since the mid 80's. It is always like being in the presence of God.

Wow. The subjects have come full circle today. Bhutto was assassinated in Pakistan. Led Zeppelin wrote a song called Kashmir, which is in Pakistan. Or India.

Creepy man. Just creepy.

And another thing that the Bhutto/Frost interview brings up is Osama Bin Laden's brother is "operating" in Pakistan. Why wouldn't we go after this guy? We'll retaliate against the families of war critics (Plame), but we won't retaliate against the family of the (supposed) perpetrator of the original attacks.

Preacher Boob @ 39:

I love Led Zeppelin, but I think the only matter of concern right now should be that the radical 'terrorists', whatever you want to call them, are now 90+% certain to have, within a year, control of a nation which has a stockpile of nuclear weapons, and the missiles and other means to deliver them...

Another thing of which we can be certain, is that our current administration will screw-up in approaching this problem. The chances of a nuclear war have just shot up to over 50%.

I'm amazed to find myself saying this, since I deplore the 'scare' tactics of the US government, but I think 'You ain't seen nothing yet'.

We already have radical terrorists in control of a country with a stockpile of Nuclear Weapons. Fortunately, Congress and Senate haven't been liquidated yet. However, so long as there are gadgets to numb the people of the USA from awareness, the rockets red glare c/o Bush/Cheney should be bursting in air rather soon!

zeppelin@skippy --

from the london concert: stairway to heaven;

from their heyday: kashmir;

as part of skippy's thanksgiving concert: thank you...

and zeppelin-like stuff as well:

jethro tull & lucia micarelli - kashmir; and

lez zeppelin (yes, an all lesbian cover band) - that's the way

what the hell has happened to this website?

new posters and more music posts and "open threads" than real news, much alone many many fewer videos.

very unfortunate this site has taken such a nose dive into inconsequential posts.

[My, what hubris you have. Think about it. It's the holiday season-Sitemonitor]

This isn't too new in Pakistan. Remember they blew up Zia's plane around 20 years ago killing that leader.

ronhohn @ 47:

For the first time in my life I agree with John Bolton on H&C tonight.

What business does Bush have to force democracy upon other countries? Some need to learn to walk before trying to get them to run.

video at my site

Hey I checked out that video. What if Bolton had made the same argument but substituted sadam Hussein instead of Musharaff we would not be here today.

Bolton is arguing against nation building but was a key architect of our failed attempt at iraq.

Also, we argued that Sadam was working on nukes and would be a threat in the future therefor justifying our removal of his dictatorship. Now we have a country with active nukes leaning towards fundamentalism
and Bolton's attitude is live and let live.

Beautiful.

has anyone ever considered boycotting the american media might be more effective than a general election these days?

I tried to read the review by the Al Jazeera journalist and here is what I found......

You are not authorized to view this page
You do not have permission to view this directory or page due to the access control list (ACL) that is configured for this resource on the Web server.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please try the following:

Contact the Web site administrator if you believe you should be able to view this directory or page.
Click the Refresh button to try again with different credentials.
HTTP Error 401.3 - Unauthorized: Access is denied due to an ACL set on the requested resource.
Internet Information Services (IIS)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess even though I am in the military and have a security clearance, I can't be trusted to see an Al Jazeera web page...BOOOOO!

Cheers

Vincent -
> ... I guess even though I am in the military and have a security clearance, I can’t be trusted to see an Al Jazeera web page…BOOOOO!

It's incredible how afraid of words *THEY* are.

Vincent James @ 58:

I tried to read the review by the Al Jazeera journalist and here is what I found......

You are not authorized to view this page
You do not have permission to view this directory or page due to the access control list (ACL) that is configured for this resource on the Web server.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please try the following:

Contact the Web site administrator if you believe you should be able to view this directory or page.
Click the Refresh button to try again with different credentials.
HTTP Error 401.3 - Unauthorized: Access is denied due to an ACL set on the requested resource.
Internet Information Services (IIS)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess even though I am in the military and have a security clearance, I can't be trusted to see an Al Jazeera web page...BOOOOO!

Cheers

Dude, that sucks.
Here ya go.
Copy and paste for the troops!

Led Zeppelin: Crossing cultures

Zeppelin legends: Guitarist Jimmy Page, right, with Robert Plant [EPA]

Since their formation from the remnants of the British band The Yardbirds in 1968, Led Zeppelin have consistently been in the vanguard of amalgamating musical themes from around the world.

In Physical Graffiti, for example, guitarist Jimmy Page, drummer John Bonham, vocalist Robert Plant and bassist John Paul Jones incorporated Middle Eastern musical themes into their hard rock riffs, unleashing a torrent of east-meets-west influences in the years to come.

Ahead of Led Zeppelin's reunion in London on December 10, two musicians - Salman Ahmed and Mark Levine, from Pakistan and the United States respectively - offer their interpretations of how successful the band has been in using music to bridge the cultural divide.

Salman Ahmed: founder and lead guitarist of Pakistani rock band Junoon

By almost any measure, the December 10 reunion of Led Zeppelin is among the most anticipated in rock history. And with good reason. Led Zeppelin was the most powerful and mesmerising rock group of all time.

But beyond unforgettable songs and legendary live shows, Led Zeppelin broadcast a powerful message to fans who were tuned in to their music at a particular frequency.

It was far more subversive than the satanic messages the band was accused of "back-masking" into Stairway to Heaven.

Their message was to bring the soul of the West and Islam together and produce a musical force powerful enough to break through the barricades dividing the two civilisations.

From opposite sides of the globe, we each heard this message, and it profoundly shaped our lives.

For a Pakistani born in Lahore who spent his adolescence in upstate New York, Led Zeppelin were a sonic voyage home, and not merely through their iconic song Kashmir.

Spiritual awakening

I saw the band at Madison Square Garden during their last US tour in 1977 and it was a spiritual awakening. There was something deeply familiar in the music, but I couldn't place it until I returned to Pakistan for medical school.

It was then that I realised music - in good measure, their music - had led me home.

Zeppelin channelled the Sufi music of South Asia through the blues to create rock 'n' roll at once more spiritual and more hedonistic than any before or since.

Soon enough I traded in my stethoscope for an electric guitar, which seemed the better instrument to help heal my deeply wounded society.

Where Page and Plant had immersed themselves in the blues, I studied with the qawwali legend Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, who offered a similar message of harmony and brotherhood.

With such inspiration I formed Junoon, which became the biggest rock band in Asia.

Since then I have regularly found myself following in Zeppelin's footsteps. The band's music validated the belief of another hero of mine, the great Sufi Ibn al-Arabi, who said that only through a multitude of sources can universal harmony be achieved.

Salman Ahmed is the founder and lead guitarist for the multi-platinum Pakistani rock band Junoon and a UN Goodwill Ambassador. His most recent performance was at the Nobel Peace Prize ceremony in Oslo, Norway. Before that, he was an artist-in-residence at Queens College in New York City. www.junoon.com

Mark Levine: professional musician and professor of Middle Eastern history

For a New Yorker born in New Jersey, hearing Led Zeppelin as a young child initiated a life-long love affair with the music and cultures of the Muslim world.

Most rock legends mined the blues, but the bends in Jimmy Page's guitar solos and Robert Plant's vocal melodies stretched beyond the "blue" notes I heard nightly while performing as a young sideman with artists like Johnny Copeland and Dr John.

Plant, right, jams with US guitarist Nile
Rodgers, left, and Turkish-born Ertegun [EPA]
As I studied Arabic music I realised that the band had dug deep beneath the Mississippi Delta to the roots of the blues found in the chants and prayers of Muslim Africans brought to America as slaves.

There were hints of the Arabic ruba' (quarter tone) and Persian koron (neutral third) which, like the unsettling dissonance of so many Zeppelin songs, resolves itself into the most harmonious interval in Western music, the perfect fifth.

With Led Zeppelin as my example, my goal as a musician and a scholar became creating conversations between the intellectual and artistic production of the West and the Muslim world.

During the day this might mean exploring the relationship between Muslim modernists and European existentialists, or Jewish and Palestinian port workers in late Ottoman Jaffa and Tel Aviv.

After the sun set, it involved performing with Iranian metal guitar virtuoso Farzad Golpayegani at the Rock for Peace Festival in Istanbul, or bringing together Moroccan gnawa artist Hassan Hakmoun and the French Jewish Gypsy group Les Yeux Noirs on Latin rock sensation Ozomatli's Grammy-winning album Street Signs.

With either a pen or a guitar, it's been the same Zeppelin-inspired "culture-jamming" that led Salman to create a new genre of pop music, "Sufi rock".

Musical philosophy

Led Zeppelin's self-described "tight but loose" musical philosophy had a special impact on us. In blues, rock, and jazz, the drummer and bassist primarily lay down a tight groove over which the front men can let loose.

Rarely does the rhythm section have the space to take the music to a higher dimension.

But Zeppelin bassist John Paul Jones and drummer John Bonham did just that. The interplay between all four musicians linked Zeppelin to the great chain of Sufi inspired improvisers, from the Gnawa slaves of the Maghreb in North Africa to the qawwali of North India.

It was this pedigree that separated Led Zeppelin from the rest of the rock 'n' roll universe, reminding those with the right ears of a time when the distinctions between East and West, Islam and Europe, were still fuzzy.

It's no wonder the band was signed by Turkish music impresario and Atlantic Records founder, Ahmet Ertegun.

Ertegun passed away in 2006 and it is to honour him that Led Zeppelin reunites as a band next week.

Muslim rock and metal artists today have been powerfully influenced by Led Zeppelin. The band's music echoes their own history and culture, helping them create new hybrids of rock, metal and Islam, and through it, some of the world's lushest, and most innovative and powerful rock 'n' roll.

At its core, even the most extreme Muslim heavy metal carries a message of peace and harmony - an important counterweight to the sounds of clashing civilisations and endless jihads that assault the world's ears today.

It's about time the world started listening. The next Led Zeppelin could as likely come from Casablanca, Cairo or Karachi as from London or New York.

Mark Levine is a professional musician and professor of Middle Eastern history at the University of California, Irvine. He is author of half a dozen books, including Heavy Metal Islam: Rock, Religion and the Struggle for the Soul of Islam (forthcoming, Random House/Verso, companion CD to be released by EMI Records). www.culturejamming.org

Sasha Frere-Jones' review is great

Tequila @ 20:

Bush can't even protect his childhood home from an arsonist, and he expects us to believe he can protect the country?

The only thing you need protection from is the executive branch.

The thing I hate about music reviews is that it too often turns into literary masturbation all over the page as the author wrestles his thesaurus into finding fifty synonyms for rhythm. Those weren't too bad, stories more about the reunion or personal connection than the music itself, but album reviews can be simply horrible. That's why I always liked CMJ's music mag over Rolling Stone or Pitchfork (and honestly, Pitchfork is just a more wankerfied version of Roling Stone).

"His inaccuracies have long been part of his charm."
- From the New Yorker article to which you link

I think I want that line on my tombstone!

Hooray for Buhtto! Now I can raise oil prices for no good reason!

Mike Huckabees supporters attempted to emulate Ron Pauls supporters on Dec 27th with a money bomb of their own! They raised a WHOPPING 80,000 dollars, falling only $920,000 short of their target.

Zeppelin rulessssssss..............!

myiq2xu @ 17:

Led Zeppelin is the greatest rock band ever.

I saw Zeppelin in Germany in 1980, 1 month before John Boham died, and I saw Robert Plant twice in the 80's.

When I was growing up during the 70's the only LZ song that ever got played on the radio was Stairway, but now all those pop songs that we got to listen to instead are gone and forgotten while Led Zeppelin remains the same.

What a small world Myic2!

I saw their last 2 concerts in Germany too in 1980. The one in Nuremberg where Bonham collapsed over his drum set into the 3rd song and evrybody booooooood. Then they announced that everyone at that Nuremberg concert could attend the next one in Munich at the Olympia Halle a few days later for free.

Of course I went to that one. GREAT CONCERT all the way through !!

That was the LAST concert, since John Bonham died later in Berlin if I'm not mistaken.

Cool that you were there too.

I saw Page & Plant also 10 years ago in Minneapolis. AWESOME !!! 10 minute versions of EVERYTHING!!

Mature and subdued!! the song from PRESENCE LP...."TEA for One"-----what a solo !!!

Verdillac @ 46:

Preacher Boob @ 39:

I love Led Zeppelin, but I think the only matter of concern right now should be that the radical 'terrorists', whatever you want to call them, are now 90+% certain to have, within a year, control of a nation which has a stockpile of nuclear weapons, and the missiles and other means to deliver them...

Another thing of which we can be certain, is that our current administration will screw-up in approaching this problem. The chances of a nuclear war have just shot up to over 50%.

I'm amazed to find myself saying this, since I deplore the 'scare' tactics of the US government, but I think 'You ain't seen nothing yet'.

We already have radical terrorists in control of a country with a stockpile of Nuclear Weapons. Fortunately, Congress and Senate haven't been liquidated yet. However, so long as there are gadgets to numb the people of the USA from awareness, the rockets red glare c/o Bush/Cheney should be bursting in air rather soon!

You speak truth, unfortunately, you're right. (Incidentally, my post should have read 'UNlike' Iran) But what to do? Move to Patagonia? Go back to school so we can have a desk to 'Duck and Cover' under?

Or IMPEACH the current farce(s), and start over with a rational government? (Where to find a 'rational government' becomes a challenge)

Special Year End Edition: Nobody Asked Me, But...

I think that John Paul Jones gets less credit than he deserves.

Nice observation sal. The grateful dead are probably the most musically sloppy band there ever was. But it worked.
The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

The very phrase used by the president to describe torture-that-isn't-somehow-torture - "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is a term originally coined by the Nazis. The techniques are indistinguishable. The methods were clearly understood in 1948 as war-crimes. The punishment for them was death.

It can't be any clearer than this. Who will finally stand up and do the right thing? War crime trials must be initiated.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/12/best-of-the...

Plant's sounding great these days. Much better than in the 1990s when he toured with Page.

mudshark @ 4:

I wouldn't go see them anymore...Plants voice is gone....

Yo Slabo, stop being a Slabo to fashion! Actually, my tastes run more to folks like Richard Thompson, Danny Gatton, David Lindley, Ry Cooder, Sonia dada, Buddy Guy, Son Seals. In other words, bands/musicians that can back up their studio work with compelling live performances. When I was 15 (1976) I went and saw LZ. I was thrilled as I worshipped the guys. I got to the show and was sorely disappointed because they just couldn't seem to pull it off live. Perhaps too much for so few and the arrangements just didn't work? I don't criticize them for lack of talent or cetainly imagination and I enjoy some of the studio material. I just don't think they are capable of doing it well live.

As an aside, I saw a comment once that LZ is responsible for more bad garage bands than any other band in history. A funny but I think complimentary statement.

um, that review linking led zep to some sort of attempt to culturally fuse the West with Islam is ridiculously hyperbolic. that may all have happened, but it's not because zep set out intentionally to do any such thing. 'kashmir' isn't some cultural touchstone, great rock song, but it's gibberish. like nearly all of their songs. plant was very rarely saying anything useful, his vocal stylings were about the undercurrents, how he sounded vs. what he was saying...they weren't on some mission to unite the world though, they were loaded to the gills on powdered substances and living basically to get into that next pair of knickers. bless 'em.

Rush? Heck, they just forgot to break-up and get back together. :-)

I read the Rolling Stone article, favorable, and another in a mag I can't recall the name of and just now viewed the Stairway utube (thanks DrPolitico)... If the rest of the show was like that rendition... Then Hell yaaa!!! Fucking A tweetybird they ARE still great at this art and craft of making and playing music...And I'm glad they pulled it off well, regardless of whatever dicking around they did with the arrangements back in the day... Hell all musicians dick around with their music just to keep from getting bored. Zep just had the balls to do it live and not always to good effect back then. I gotta admit that. (exibit A; the movie Song Remains the Same).. And Bonham's son??? He has his dads shit down cold! And then some. Personal cudos to him as I know it was a labor of love and respect to his fathers memory.

But, reading all this good Zep p.r. and seeing that vid reminded me mostly of my own roots... Like the story about the Knebworth shows in the summer of 79 I recently read which remarked about the crowd and like the place I sprang from myself as a musician. I too, just like Zep and their fans at the time and I suspect now as well... am an unrecontructed hippy and hard rocker and probably always will be dispite any other music genre I work in or any other music which rises to the fore in popularity and there have been a number from disco to punk and on thru new wave and on thru hairband heavy metal an Grunge and an on and on... Along with the Beatles for Pop, Yes and early Genesis and a few others for the currently disdained art of Progressive art rock, Zeppelin are/is the godfather of hard rock which did begat heavy metal. They are the fountainhead in my opinion of several music mediums since. Apologies to Sabbath and Blue Cheer fans who might take a different view on this. Truth it they all came from the same time period so they are all of a similar birthright.

P.S. mudshark? I've heard stories that they lowered some if the tunes original keys to take account of Plants current voice... That makes sense to me and like I said, if the rest of the tunes played measured up to Stairway? I got no problem with key changes in service to a songs efficacy.....No offense meant to your opinion..............JD

CREW has been involved with the OVP records reviews: they appear to have a legal interest in getting FOIAs related to OVP compliance/non-compliance with various security reports. Addington and VP have claimed they are in their "own branch" and "not subject" to the Executive Orders related to ISOO. However, 32 CFR 2800 clearly shows the OVP is subject to security standards which include ISOO directives and executive orders. However, Addington contends the ISOO standards do not apply to OVP. Addington does not specifically address 32 CFR 2800, only asserts "executive orders" (an irrelevant argument, arguably frivolous) do not apply to OVP; and that the OVP is not an "agency" subject to ISOO standards.

Put aside the above. It appears there is an opportunity. Let's call Addington on his bluff. This note outlines a number of options for war crimes prosecutors, ICC, and legal counsel attempting to get FOIAs requests fulfilled. This goes over some basic legal definitions; is not intended as legal advice; and is merely for discussion purposes only.

ISOO Decision Point

Addington asserts that OVP is not subject to ISOO standards. However, he fails to address the 32 CFR 2800 requirements which explicitly mention ISOO directives. Addington's problem is that he's failed to make the case that OVP "never" was subject to any 32 CFR 2800 requirement; or that the OVP security-compliance standards never included any ISOO directives. He appears to merely assert that they do not apply.

Let's accept that assertion as true, for the sake of discussion: That there was a decision, related to 32 CFR 2800, that says the ISOO directives were no longer applicable. Keep in mind as you read this, the 32 CFR 2800 still includes the ISOO directive references; and the assertion that OVP is or is not in the Executive branch is not relevant: 32 CFR 2800 applies directly to OVP.

Addington's problem, in light of the clear language in 32 CFr 2800 that expressly includes ISOO directives, is that he has to point to a specific time when this standard "no longer applies". Let's call that time the "line in the sand." Put that aside for the moment while we discuss his other problem.

Deliberations

Under the rules of privilege, we learned through the DOJ Staff counsel, that "pre-decision memoranda" are protected. This means any discussion counsel has before a decision is protected or shielded by privilege, unless that legal opinion is clearly erroneous, frivolous, and tends to condone illegal activity.

As we continue with this comment, I would like you to keep in mind the following diagram:

[ A----------B - X - C----------D ] , where:

- The "X" signifies the decision point to no longer include the OVP under ISOO;
- Horizontal line A-B represents pre-decision deliberations;
- Line C-D represents post-decision memoranda; and
- Time is on the horizontal axis, going left to right. Early time is on your left; and later time is on your right.

Addington appears to incorrectly believe he's made an argument that seals all the evidence. The evidence appears to relate to decisions the OVP took to ignore 32 CFR 2800, not comply with OVP security requirements, and pretend that the legal requirements were not applicable. Here's his problem: (Refer to the diagram)

A. Whether OVP is or isn't an executive agency is irrelevant for purposes of 32 CFR 2800: OVP is expressly included. However, Addington would like to pretend 32 CFR 2800 does not apply; and that at some point -- X -- there was a decision to no longer consider OVP as being subject to ISOO security standards.

B. This time-X is the decision point; meaning, all memoranda in A-B are not obviously releasable, unless they are unrelated to that decision and can be accessed using other methods. However, if decision-X is real, and there was a decision to "no longer include" OVP within the ISOO standards, that must have occurred after the President took the oath of office in 2001. In theory. This helps bound the time when the OVP was, in Addington's mind, "no longer" subject to the ISOO 32 CFR 2800 standards.

C. Addington's burden, for the sake of this discussion only, isn't to show that the evidence is protected; but the opposite: To provide an inventory of all data that is pre-decisional. It is up to the court to decide whether that inventory is correct or not. When OVP asserts that the memoranda "cannot be disclosed" because they are "pre decisional", that is not an assertion the court accepts; but the opposite -- one the court reviews. If the court agrees, then the list of documents asserted to be privileged because of the "pre-decisional or deliberative"-waiver/protection/privilege, then those documents are sealed.

D. After "the decision", the privilege does not apply. If there are no reasonable reasons, the Court can-may-might-could order all these post-decisional memoranda/discussion/non-deliberative e-mails related to this issue. The key is to know exactly what the Court has or has not expressly ruled on; and call Addington on his bluff about the rules "not applying". Other rules do.

E. However, if there is a time-X where there was a decision to exclude OVP from the 32 CFR 2800-ISOO-related standards, then that date must exist; and all subsequent discussion after that decision no longer fall within the "pre decisional protection privilege". As we saw with the US Atty firing-emails, the DOJ staff when it sent e-mails after the decision to fire -- was required to provide those emails; they were not protected. They were made after the decision to fire. This does not go into the issue of the DOJ Staff using non-official emails to bypass the official records; or the possibility that the WH-DOJ-RNC destroyed emails that they realized could not be protected by any privilege claim.

FOIA Request

Now that you have an idea of a timelines, decision points, and know a little bit about pre-decisional/deliberative privilege/shields, you're going to quickly see that Addington has a problem: He's stuck in a web of contradictory assertions which do not match reality, the standards, or the existing lines of evidence outside his control. Addington's problem is he's still digging. DC Disciplinary board needs to get spun up on this.

Let's reconsider what Addington is saying, but put this in the context of the X-decision; and the pre-post decisions. You'll see that the subsequent FOIA-requests will produce something which Addington cannot protect or shield. Where this is going: The inventory is allegedly a list which the International Criminal Court would be interested.

Here is the problem Addington has:

A. If he claims that the OVP is "not" subject to any ISOO-related standards, then he needs to point to a specific decision that does the following: Expressly changes the language within 32 CFR 2800; one that expressly changes the language in the OVP-related language; and one that expressly deletes the ISOO-references. His problem is that the CFR still includes these ISOO references, but let's pretend that he's changed them. Going back to our diagram, if he asserts that ISOO-related references -- in the CFR and as they relate to OVP data-retention requirements -- are not longer valid, he will have ot produce a document that expressly does this. if there is no document, then the standard hasn't been changed; if he refuses to provide the document, he has to explain why he's not providing that document. he can't be silent.

B. Addington's other problem is that once he commits to a "specific date-X" where there was "the decision" to "exclude" OVP from the ISOO requirements, he will have to produce all documents made after that decision, in the C-D range. That's his problem. Addington's goal is to shield everything.

C. Recall, there are two types of data we're talking about: One is the data that was supposed to have been retained, and is subject to 32 CFR 2800 requirements; and the second set of data -- which bears closer examination -- are the discussions related to that decision to exclude OVP from this standard. Let's accept, for the sake of argument, Addington's assertion that the OVP office is "not subject" to any Executive Order; and accept that he's failed to account for the CFR-ISOO requirements: There has to be some post-decision discussion about his realizing that the e-mails related to his decision are not protected. Again, we're not talking about the original data that OVP refuses to turn over, but the e-mail discussion about that OVP-data. Once Addington asserts that there was "a decision" to draw the line in the sand, and say, "from this day forth" OVP is not subject to ISOO, then all subsequent discussions -- post-decisional-memoranda -- are not protected by privilege.

D. The key on the FOIA requests for OVP is to think in terms of the two lines of data: One is the data that the public would like to see, which Addington wants to say is not subject to ISOO; and the second set of data, is the e-mail discussion related to that post-decision. If we accept -- for the sake of argument -- Addington's assertion that there was a decision, and after that date, the OVP data was not subject to ISOO, then all e-mails related to that post-decision are reviewable, and subject to FOIA-requests.

E. Addington's problem is -- referring to the diagram -- is that he's hoping nobody is going to pinpoint him on the following: When did the OVP no longer fall under 32 CFR 2800-ISOO-requirements?

Suggestions

1. Pinpoint for the court the exact calendar date Addington/OVP asserts that OVP was not subject to ISOO;

2. Require Addington to produce all e-mail records related to any discussion after this date;

3. Require Addington to produce an inventory of all e-mails related to this decision in an inventory to the court;

4. Ask the Court to review the legal basis for OVP to declare a change to the CFR; and include a data when OVP notified the public that the 32 CFR 2800 had been changed to exclude ISOO-references-directives.

Comments

Addington is stuck. He and OVP staff counsel fails to realize that even if he claims the OVP is in its "own branch", he has not addressed adequately for the court or public why the ISOO-directives no longer apply. The 32 CFR 2800 still includes ISOO, and there has been no change [read="Addington is imagining an X-date]; and because there was not apparent decision to remove ISOO-requirements from the 32 CFR 2800 requirements, there is neither a pre-decisional shield [read: "A-B protection does not exist for any e-mails related to the ISOO requirements"] nor is there a basis to shield any of the records OVP says it does not have to provide.

Addington appears to be saying, "We do not have to provide this non-email OVP-data for the FOIA request, because the OVP was not in the Executive branch, and not subject to any ISOO-standards." Even if we accept that assertion as true, and go down that route with him, he'll be forced to contradict himself before the court when asked about the "emails about that decision to exclude OVP from ISOO."

Key Questions

- When, after President Bush and VP Cheney took office, did OVP change the 32 CFR 2800 language to explicitly exclude OVP from the 32 CFR 2800 requirements? [Adverse inference: The ISOO-related standards in the 32 CFR 2800 were not changed; the ISOO-requirements remain, and Addington cannot claim any e-mails related to the OVP security retention requirements in re 32 CFR 2800 are protected. Rather than address the ISOO standards in the CFR, Addington is attempting to change the focus to whether OVP is or is not subject to executive orders. That is an irrelevant, and arguably frivolous argument subjecting Addington to an alleged disbarment investigation in re alleged war crimes evidence destruction/obstruction of justice in re evidence related to an ongoing proceeding.]

- Which e-mails related to this decision does Addington-OVP assert were part of the "pre-decisional-deliberations"; and has the court been provided an inventory of these emails? [Adverse inference: Addington cannot point to a specific date when this decision was made; and no e-mails related to this "non-decision" are protected/shielded. He'll have to create another allegedly frivolous excuse not to comply with the 32 CFR 2800 requirements on OVP, of interest to ICC.]

- Which e-mails made after this decision is Addington attempting to distract attention from, and focus not on the emails, or the OVP 32 CFR 2800-ISOO requirements, but pretend that "everything" is protected? [[Adverse inference: Here, we enter the issue of the real reason RNC-WH-OVP e-mails appear to be deleted: Addington appears to know the e-mails are of interest to war crimes prosecutors, but he has no non-frivolous legal argument to shield them, so the emails were allegedly destroyed. Lack of evidence where there should be evidence, as required under 32 CFR 2800, can be entered into evidence with adverse inferences: "The email was destroyed for frivolous reasons; and the underlying illegal war crimes attach to counsel."]

- If the OVP data is "not" subject to any ISOO-standards, when was this decision made to exclude OVP from these ISOO standards; and why -- despite the "change" after Cheney took office -- is OVP asking us to believe that OVP "never" was subject to any 32 CFR 2800-ISOO requirements? [[Adverse inference: In this case, war crimes evidence which cannot be destroyed, or others have seen, can only be shielded using allegedly frivolous reasons. If it cannot be protected, the only option -- to hide the evidence without a bonafide shield -- is to destroy it. Allegedly illegally in re ICC.]

- Has Addington -- in asserting that OVP data is shielded because it does "not" have a reporting requirement under ISOO -- adequately explained how he's differentiating between [a] pre-decisional memoranda/email issued before this decision date; [b] the OVP data which is the subject of the original FOIA request, and unrelated to emails either before or after the "date which ISOO standards" did not apply; and [c] the e-mails sent outside the protected/shielded period [C-D]? [[Adverse inference: No, Addington has failed to adequately discuss why the e-mails -- not the original OVP documents -- also are protected in the C-D region. Nor has he explained why the OVP e-mails sent before the decision have not been inventoried for the court to demonstrate that they have been correctly shielded by the privildge.]

If you can't get the original OVP-data, and Addington continues to pretend that OVP is "not" subject to any ISOO-standards, then ask for the e-mails related to that decision; and make Addington explain why those e-mails -- created after the decision point -- are also not available. The answer is: They appear to have been destroyed because they discuss methods to thwart war crimes prosecutors from finding evidence related to rendition, prisoner abuse, GTMO, and other alleged violations of the laws of war. If you play Addington's game on this, you'll give him enough room to trip. Call him on his bluff: "OK, you wno't give us the data in the OVP files; let's see the post-decision-emails related to that decision to exclude OVP from the ISOO-directives in the 32 CFR 2800." The arguments he'll use to not comply with that request will likely contradict the assertions he's made to the court. That's his problem. His problem is this isn't about OVP, ISOO, or data retention; but about something else: Alleged e-mails discussion efforts to thwart access to alleged war crimes evidence. This FOIA isn't about getting access to papers or records; its about forcing Addington to admit that he's allegedly destroyed evidence of interest to war crimes prosecutors, and was foreseeably known since 2001 had to be retained as it was related to alleged war crimes which the JAGs have known told WH-OVP-DoJ-DoD since 2001 were issues the ICC could have jurisdiction.

You will also find, most likely, that the region C-D coincides with the decision of WH-OVP-DOJ-DoD to include in the MCA language to provide legal defense funds for US persons brought before the international tribunals, including the iCC. Supposedly, with Rove's permanent majority, the GOP-WH-DoD-Rove-ADdington-Gonzalez would never have to respond to any inquiry. You'll find the evidence was most likely "not available" not because of any ISOO-requirement change, but because the OVP realized someone outside OVP knew of that evidence; and that the evidence could not be reasonably shielded using non-frivolous reasons. Once frivolous reasons are used, then the underlying alleged crimes attach back to legal counsel.

Yes, Addington has a very big problem right now: He's asserted things that do not make sense; and by asserting that there was a decision to "not include" OVP within the ISOO, those post-decision-emails discussing these decision are subject to a secondary FOIA request. They cannot be protected. If OVP attempts to shield them, its because they too have been allegedly illegally destroyed in contravention to ISOO directives contained within 32 CFR 2800. Arguably, that destruction is admissible before the ICC as an alleged war crime in re destruction of alleged war crimes evidence: rendition, prisoner abuse, and other alleged violations of Geneva.

all these folks saying Led Zeppelin sucked live.....well, they obviously never had good seats.

Whoops, my bad... This is an open thread, not strictly a music thread...P.S. ain't nothin wrong with Rush!.... One of Canada's finest offerings to modern music. And I've read it more than once that they consider themselves nothing more than a rock band... A good one, excellent in fact in my opinion.....Right up there with Zep or any of the other great hard rock bands...JD

oh, and yeah.....a little off topic....must've thought he was on another thread.

Interesting how people forget "there's no disputing taste."

I saw Zep in their heyday. Their last tour was '77. But it wasn't until the mid-80s that they surpassed The Rolling Stones and The Who in fan polls as the "greatest band." So their reputation as a great band isn't based on their live performances!

That said, they were great! So (more recently) was Paige and Plant, and Paige and the Black Crows. Jimmy Paige is amazing!

But let me throw some fuel on this fire -
Live, they were NEVER a match for The Who (and Zep broke up before Keith Moon died). And Paige never generated the dynamic sound on stage that Townshend did. Paige is a better lead guitarist, session musician, and bluesman, but Townshend has him in every other category - high-energy sound, pioneer of techniques, rock innovator, range of rock beats, songwriter, and lyricist. (If you're unaware of how much Zep got caught stealing the work of others, check it out: http://www.furious.com/perfect/yardbirds2.html)

Finally, did you know Paige tried to get Moon and Entwhistle to join Zep in the beginning? Yep - he wnated The Who's rythm section! Or that Entwhistle came up with the name "Led Zeppelin?

I love 'em, but the best show of the year? I saw Who and Roger Waters (essentially Pink Floyd) shows this year that Zep couldn't touch without 20-30 shows under their belts. (Springsteen and Neil Young were in great form too.) Much of the current Zep hype probably comes from the rarity of the show.

I'll go see them when they tour, and I know they'll be great! But "the greatest rock band ever?" Not for this (VERY experienced) concert goer!

To all those people who cry 'plagiarize', and idiotically try to somehow link it to George Bush, look at others like the Who etc, and you'll see they have strong connections to their influences, because, get ready for this, EVERYBODY COPIES EVERYONE.
Before you go spinning your head around drooling everywhere, remember that although they borrowed from earlier work, they presented it with a twist unique to their sound, turning up the volume and the distortion, and also experimented with almost every genre of music in their day, and did damn well at it.
Most bands have 2 great players, but everyone in Zeppelin were maestros. Something to remember before you belittle their work.

You gotta love it when some smelly old wall eyed Limey wearing Grampers screaming into his ampnifier about giving you every inch of his viagra soaked Bangers & Mash while some other dried out drug addict twangs his electric Banjo super loud making your ears ring for days, yeah, put me in the front row, baby!

I still love Led Zeppelin, but if I am to be convinced that they still matter on stage -- and sorry, I can't -- then surely we need to see a contemporary photo of the band performing in the 21st century instead of the wish fulfillment you posted that is already dated thirty years. Jimmy Page no longer has blue shoe polish in his hair. It is grey, it is thin, and he looks a lot more like one of his literary icons Gollum than anything resembling the picture you have attached.