You know.....anyone who believes in this conspiracy theory that questions the official government version of these events becomes a conspiracy theorist.

There are no questions being raised. She was shot. It's a cover up. The question is "who shot her." The answer is probably the person most afraid of her. Guess who that is?

John West @ 4:

There are no questions being raised.

Go Figure
http://tinyurl.com/2u3cew

John West @ 4:

The question is "who shot her." The answer is probably the person most afraid of her. Guess who that is?

Wrong answer. The suspect list isn't "who's afraid of her" but rather "who stands to gain from her death." That's a much longer list. It's entirely possible that her own people shot her, believing--correctly as it's turned out--that she'd be much more useful as a figurehead in death than as a real head of party in life. I don't think that happened, mind you, but anyone who'd be surprised to learn that it happened just hasn't been paying attention.

Just as long as we admit there is a history of false flag terrorist attacks used for subversive reasons throughout history, I'll believe we have a chance at getting to the truth of this matter.

Widipedia has an entry on this tactic

I don't know what occurred to Benazir Bhutto but I'm not ruling anything out. I hope we get the truth.

Impeachment banners at Tournament of Roses Parade!

So we might have a 19 year old in charge of nukes.

Oh well. Old enough to launch the big one but not old enough to drink!

Still no video, download or stream...

Thor Heyerdahl @ 9:

Now we just need Bill Hicks to come back from the dead and do another sketch on another "magic bullet".

we still have areLIAR spectre. is he good enough? I mean, he's still a consistent liar.

bhutto was handed to musharraf by boosh.
musharraf's Intel forces likely did the damage.
I do not believe wolf's bLIEtzer's alleged bhutto email.
I am NOT sure of the HuffPo piece with the alleged bhutto head x-rays.
I won't rule out that supporters of the other candidate may have done this figuring the blame would go to musharraf.
either way, this was obviously politically motivated.
musharraf provided bhutto with minimal security.
Al Qaeda had nothing to do with this.

It was inevitable that there would be another camera, even a phone cam, up and running on that day, and the flip-flopping stories from the Pakistan government undermines their credibility.

The problem is, America doesn't exactly have the reputation of late to call for an independent investigation, especially since it's been revealed we were brokering the whole 'Bhutto returns, she becomes PM, Musharraf becomes President' thing. Beyond simple ineptitude, this is why Bush said precious little about the State of Emergency - because we'd already promised Musharraf the presidency.

It's my understanding that Pakistan's nuclear warheads are kept separate from the missiles (not unlike our own system). But it does mean they're in a medium-sized package that could be easily transported, as opposed to some kind of James Bondian plot where you have to break into the silo and operate on the missile while it's being fueled.

Who stands to benefit? Musharraf is the obvious candidate. However, there was also an unsuccessful attack against Nawaz Sharif, the prime minister who was overthrown by the good general. That could either been a ham-handed attempt by Musharraf to eliminate his two major opponents, or Sharif figuring that if Bhutto is gone, Musharraf's days are numbered, and he takes over.

Was it Bhutto's party, thinking that her image is more useful than Bhutto herself? If so, who is going to be the 'savior' fronted for the election? And why eliminate Bhutto before taking care of Musharraf, unless we're seeing a 'you take care of your house, I take care of my house' deal? (That is, Musharraf secures the presidency, Bhutto's party sees to her elimination, and the new candidate is someone who isn't going to clean house when they win.)

No matter how it plays out, we need to keep our eyes on the nuclear issue. Al Qaeda has never been closer to obtaining a nuke than they are now.

If there are two hundred different explanation's in the schmedia for what happened here, the more confused people will get and the sooner they will tire of it. Then it's business as usual again for the Big Boyz in Geo Politics. The business of picking our pockets.

I didn't buy the "official" story to begin with. Human skulls are very hard. Not as hard as thumb bones or thighs, but still. The Pakistani government seems to indicate that she hit her head while ducking, but could anyone duck so hard as to cause a wound that looks like an exit wound from a bullet?

Regardless of their spin, she died because of an assassin. If the gunman wasn't there, she might have lived. Duh.

I still think she was shot. Her hair and scarf moving seem to indicate impact. Then again, I'm not a Pakistani official and their eyes are kinda sorta different. Right?

Remember the initial press reports of two men seen running from the grassy knoll in Dallas, Texas on 22 November 1963? (Foy you youngins, that was when our President, John Fitzgerald Kennedy, was assassinated by gunmen). That part of the story of JFK's murder soon vanished from our corporate media's account of the murder. It is interesting how the truth is often quickly murdered and buried by the corporate media; anything to keep the gag of "democracy" going, I guess...

CoIntelPro @ 20:

bhutto was handed to musharraf by boosh.
musharraf's Intel forces likely did the damage.
I do not believe wolf's bLIEtzer's alleged bhutto email.
I am NOT sure of the HuffPo piece with the alleged bhutto head x-rays.
I won't rule out that supporters of the other candidate may have done this figuring the blame would go to musharraf.
either way, this was obviously politically motivated.
musharraf provided bhutto with minimal security.
Al Qaeda had nothing to do with this.

Huffpo is turning into an entertainment rag. Even though they change the headlines frequently, they are slow to investigate the real news. Moderators suck on the comment pages. If they don't agree with what you write they won't post it, especially if you contribute factual information that contradicts their headlines.

Musharraf hated Bhutto. He tried to prevent her from returning to Pakistan, he placed her under house arrest in November, he wanted her dead so he could continue his role in offering a well-armed Pakistan to radical Islam. HUGE mistake that the U.S. supported this country with weapons and money.

Scarce, providing scarce info, even after waiting the weekend. Oh well, guess better late than never.

The Doctors that treated Bhutto, released an open letter to the media distancing themselves from the sunroof claim, and asserting that they felt pressured to prop up the governments version.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/12/31/MNN2U765O.DTL

Also, what about the video with the recent interview where Bhutto states matter of fact; that Osama has already been murdered?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UnychOXj9Tg
I bet she would have some interesting insight on the latest alleged Osama video.

I'd agree that this video footage does raise a lot more questions. First, the ISI is a top knotch intelligence agency and if Musharraf had the usual security in place as is usual for him in Pakistan then there would have been multiple layers of security for those two assassins to get through. There would have been multiple check points, possibly pat searches of all attending, snipers on roof tops and undercover cops or intelligence agents in the crowd. Nothing would have been left to chance.

Next, the entire route Bhutto was to take would have been cleared days or even weeks in advance. Sewer entrances would have been sealed and potential buildings likely to be used for an attack (I.E. sniper) would have been cleared out. None of this appears to have been done either by the ISI or by Bhutto's own security as we see from the video. The attacker(s) were allowed to get very close to Bhutto without raising any suspicion. This, in itself is telling since Pakistan is a very hostile place with the Taliban and Al Qaeda knowing full well are running around.

The more that comes from this, the more the evidence points to a Government sponsored assassination plot. The ISI is not known to be as sloppy as the Pakistani Government makes them out to be. The lack of security appears to be deliberately done.

Also, Bhutto was the ONLY ONE TO DIE IN THE TRUCK. The bomb blast did not pummel her truck, her driver survived, and the only blood inside the truck is where her head laid as she died.

I subscribe to the theory Bhutto was killed by one or more gunshots and that the sunroof explanation is entirely a fiction aimed at denying her martyr status.

Americans aren't into martyr status so much, so in U.S. assassinations, the fact of gunshot(s) isn't denied, and we always wind up with a neat (TV-ready) explanation involving a certified lone nut.

The Pakistani government must think their citizens are as gullible as our government thinks we are.

Back to the left, back to the left

It's so damn obviuous she was shot, Let's review:

1) The medical examiner said she was shot in the head and neck
2) There is video evidence of her actually being shot, and not ducking
3) There are eyewitnesses to her ebing shot
4) There is/was no blood on the roof handle that is being blamed for a fatal skull fracture.

The govt. explanation is so transparently phony I cant help but believe if they are that amatuerish or whether or not this is supposed to create a conspiracy theory.

QuakerDave @ 37:

How do TWO men, one with a handgun and another in an explosive vest, get that close to a Presidential candidate 5 days before the election?

Someone let them get that close. Someone who had something to gain by her death. Obviously.

It’s the cover up of HOW she died that is key, because it’s the distance between her dying a martyr or her dying by bumping her head! See?

EXACTLY!

I agree on both points. Look at it from Musharraf's point of view. If he did authorize the assassination, a martyr would be the last thing he would want especially since Bhutto and her party are very popular and his dictatorial Government is despised by the Pakistanis in general. Besides, a Martyred Bhutto that died from a shot at point blank range would put his intelligence/security agencies competence into question. Other nations would then wonder just how secure Pakistan's nuclear weapons really are. If they could let a shooter and suicide bomber get that close then how close can someone get to their nuclear weapons.

On the the other hand, if she just hit her head during the suicide attack Musharraf can claim that there was no way to prevent that and that his Government did all that it could to protect her. It is the shooter that the Pakistani Government does want the world to see. The suicide bomber appears to be in place to remove all traces of the shooter and to pin the attack on Al Qaeda or the Taliban who are well known to use suicide bombers.

Some of the best-reasoned and best-documented materials on the JFK assassination can be found at the assassinationscience website.

Otay @ 49:

Otay @ 47:

Think about this: how likely would it be that someone could walk up to any VIP's car with a gun, climb on top of it, lay down and aim at their head from a few feet away?

Pakistan thinks their people are imbeciles.

Forgot to mention, add in all of the "security force".

Agreed. They do think they are imbeciles. Even our own Presidential candidates, and you can pick your favorite one of them from either party have some sort of security attached to them to prevent incidents like this from happening. It is common practice and would be especially so in Pakistan. The lack of this security is what is key and it is this point that makes that video very damning to the Pakistani Government.

CoIntelPro @ 21:

chlorocardium @ 19:

Thanks for the link, Cary.

Y'know, what gets me about all these public protest and funeral scenes? Only half the people are there. No women, ever. Yes, the West was slow coming out of the dark ages also....

we have candidate huckster to prove WE have not successfully emerged from the dark ages.

Just when we are getting out of the dark ages their pulling us back in!

Boy, the more that comes out from Bhutto's Assassiantion the more a Government authorized hit makes sense. It makes sense because now Musharraf has delayed the Jan. 8 elections and can rule with military backing unchallenged beyond his term. Now, we have the Bush Administration's moves as we see from this article below. It seems that Bhutto was simply a ruse to show that "democracy" was actually taking place but not to really bring it about. In other words, she became irrelavent to the Pakistani Government and therefore had to be eliminated.

U.S. Troops to Head to Pakistan

"Beginning early next year, U.S. Special Forces are expected to vastly expand their presence in Pakistan, as part of an effort to train and support indigenous counter-insurgency forces and clandestine counterterrorism units, according to defense officials involved with the planning."

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/earlywarning/2007/12/musharrafs_woes_have...

Pinosharraf thinks we're all a bunch of bumpkins

KayInMaine @ 51:

I don't think it's an accident either that Condi & Georgie wanted Bhutto to come back to Pakistan to "force democracy" there. I think it was a set up to show the world WHAT HAPPENS when one tries to change things.

Sorry, but you're giving Bush and his cronies WAY too much credit for intelligence and cunning there.

And frankly, whatever the involvement of the Pakistani government, military, and/or ISI (don't forget that they're not necessarily working together or in each others' interests), I don't see how it matters whether she died from gunshots or the bomb. Nobody denies that shots were fired and a bomb went off, so regardless of which one was actually fatal, it can't be said that it simply "wasn't [fill in blank]'s method".

L.A. Confidential @ 27:

myiq2xu @ 25:

The sad part was that Bhutto's return to Pakistan was G-Dub's big move to salvage his (and Condi's) legacy.

Bush has the reverse-Midas Touch. Everything he touches turns to shit.

And another ‘Bin Laden tape’ has surfaced! Isn’t that astounding?

Another reason to see that the booscheney plan was to milk b.bhutto any way they could. Incredibly cynical, aren't they?

myiq2xu @ 7:

Chris @ 2:

You know.....anyone who believes in this conspiracy theory that questions the official government version of these events becomes a conspiracy theorist.

Well, since there were at least two people involved, it it by definition a conspiracy.

Yep... one guy shooting, another one blowing himself up. Or is Chris trying to tell us that it was two independent assassins who just happened to be standing at the same place at the same time?

Cary @ 30:

CoIntelPro @ 20:

bhutto was handed to musharraf by boosh.
musharraf's Intel forces likely did the damage.
I do not believe wolf's bLIEtzer's alleged bhutto email.
I am NOT sure of the HuffPo piece with the alleged bhutto head x-rays.
I won't rule out that supporters of the other candidate may have done this figuring the blame would go to musharraf.
either way, this was obviously politically motivated.
musharraf provided bhutto with minimal security.
Al Qaeda had nothing to do with this.

Huffpo is turning into an entertainment rag. Even though they change the headlines frequently, they are slow to investigate the real news. Moderators suck on the comment pages. If they don't agree with what you write they won't post it, especially if you contribute factual information that contradicts their headlines.

Musharraf hated Bhutto. He tried to prevent her from returning to Pakistan, he placed her under house arrest in November, he wanted her dead so he could continue his role in offering a well-armed Pakistan to radical Islam. HUGE mistake that the U.S. supported this country with weapons and money.

as long as mushy paid americans for the weapons with the american money he was given, no one cared. as long as there is no actual war with India, it won't look like the glaring mistake that it really is.

and remember boosh went to India to sell THEM more nukes in exchange for melons. Go figure, er, nevermind.

Point is, she was an assassination waiting to happen. And now she's dead. What's arguing over this conspiracy and that one going to do to bring her back? Nothing.

And it's a further tool of division...

Pay attention. Beyond Ms Bhutto being dead all the bullshit being made up and paraded around for your dissection, is just more bread and circuses. You are being pwnd

KayInMaine @ 51:

I don't think it's an accident either that Condi & Georgie wanted Bhutto to come back to Pakistan to "force democracy" there. I think it was a set up to show the world WHAT HAPPENS when one tries to change things. Makes you wonder if this is a foreshadow of Election 2008? Whoever is the Democrat-elect had better make sure they get extra protection, because we all know how those fascists don't like giving up their power or how they hate democratic tools such as free & open elections to vote them out!

If you credited cheney with that intent, I'd be less skeptical of what you said. neither boosh nor condi are smart enough to think that deeply or that far ahead.

as far as our own 2008 elections, we have 1008 signing statements and several dozen executive orders as reason to be very afraid.

Last I heard she bumped her head on the sunroof; CNN says.
Deek explains:
http://www.fknnewz.com/index.php

CoIntelPro @ 20:

bhutto was handed to musharraf by boosh.
musharraf's Intel forces likely did the damage.
I do not believe wolf's bLIEtzer's alleged bhutto email.
I am NOT sure of the HuffPo piece with the alleged bhutto head x-rays.
I won't rule out that supporters of the other candidate may have done this figuring the blame would go to musharraf.
either way, this was obviously politically motivated.
musharraf provided bhutto with minimal security.
Al Qaeda had nothing to do with this.

I'm in agreement with that.

It's very, very tiring to once again see video evidence of an obvious "event" and have government robots stand before cameras and tell all that what you saw is not what really happened, that they are the ones that have the truth and anyone who questions it will at best be labeled a conspiracy theorist and at worst carted off to prison .
"Who do you believe : us, or your own lying eyes ?"

I've reached the point when I no longer care if the world maintains stability , I want to see open defiance of this bullshit . Pakistan could push the neo-nazi con agenda over the cliff and I for one will not shed a tear . The war on terror should be just that : a war on the terror that these far right lunatic leaders bring us everyday .

General_Rennenkampf @ 63:

Lollimom @ 1:

If anybody believes any "official" explanation of this murder from the governments of Pakistan or the USA, they're more stupid than naive.

A murder of convenience.

Yeah, yeah, really fucking convienent to have even more people wanting to shoot Musharraf's head off. Like he doesn't already have the Islamicists and nearly everyone who values democracy howling for blood, oh no, he must kill someone else and add more nutcases and rebels against tyranny against him.

Brilliant idea.

You fail.

Think it through, herr general. what you are projecting is certainly a possibility musharraf has no fear of, so certainly the assassination is something he would not fear and just might welcome. he and his army will weather the unrest and now with the help of the american military, he'll pretend to cooperate with america while accumulating more weapons and becoming a larger threat.

Then lockheed and grumman and general dynamics and general electric can make more money selling more military and nuclear technology to India.

This is yet another example of the SHOCK DOCTRINE and DISASTER CAPITALISM in action.

Another pristine example of Bush Administration's penetrating wisdom in foreign affairs.

Another whole year at least of mercilessly compounding "today's disaster is worse than the day before" reality.

So many people have done so many things so wrong for so long. Does it ever get to the point that if you do enough wrong for a long enough time, it works out to getting one thing right?

I guess we'll just have to run the experiment to its bloody, polluted end to find out, won't we?

CoIntelPro @ 76:

General_Rennenkampf @ 63:

Lollimom @ 1:

If anybody believes any "official" explanation of this murder from the governments of Pakistan or the USA, they're more stupid than naive.

A murder of convenience.

Yeah, yeah, really fucking convienent to have even more people wanting to shoot Musharraf's head off. Like he doesn't already have the Islamicists and nearly everyone who values democracy howling for blood, oh no, he must kill someone else and add more nutcases and rebels against tyranny against him.

Brilliant idea.

You fail.

Think it through, herr general. what you are projecting is certainly a possibility musharraf has no fear of, so certainly the assassination is something he would not fear and just might welcome. he and his army will weather the unrest and now with the help of the american military, he'll pretend to cooperate with america while accumulating more weapons and becoming a larger threat.

Then lockheed and grumman and general dynamics and general electric can make more money selling more military and nuclear technology to India.

This is yet another example of the SHOCK DOCTRINE and DISASTER CAPITALISM in action.

Actually, my screen name is a Tsarist Russian general. You fail on historical knowledge.

Pakistan's leader has everyone thirsting for his blood. There's a reason he ordered that crackdown on his domestic opposition. It wasn't for shits'n'giggles. He's scared to lose his life, and quite possibly to have Pakistan break apart even harder than it already has. The state is no better than Somalia, except that it has an army to unify it.

America hasn't sold much to India that I'm aware of, and the Indians don't and never have trusted us. After all, they were an ally of Moscow in the Cold War.

The stories from the Pakistani media about the exact cause of death are there to subdue the important question of who actually was responsible. Al-qaeda has already denied responsibility, and they tend to accept their actions.

ISI seems to have a hand in this and they will definitely gain from it now. If Benezir would have come into power she would have diverted the money that is being made from the US military aide and corruption away from the military generals who are building palaces in the blue district of Islamabad. Also, she would have allowed the US military to come into western Pakistan and stop what actually is happening... Pakistani military is doing almost nothing to stop the extremists, in fact there have been cases where US made guns and night vision goggles have been sold to the extremists by Pakistani soldiers for personal profit.

Our current policy towards Pakistan is in free fall!

General_Rennenkampf @ 80:

CoIntelPro @ 76:

General_Rennenkampf @ 63:

Lollimom @ 1:

Yeah, yeah, really fucking convienent to have even more people wanting to shoot Musharraf's head off. Like he doesn't already have the Islamicists and nearly everyone who values democracy howling for blood, oh no, he must kill someone else and add more nutcases and rebels against tyranny against him.

Brilliant idea.

You fail.

Think it through, herr general. what you are projecting is certainly a possibility musharraf has no fear of, so certainly the assassination is something he would not fear and just might welcome. he and his army will weather the unrest and now with the help of the american military, he'll pretend to cooperate with america while accumulating more weapons and becoming a larger threat.

Then lockheed and grumman and general dynamics and general electric can make more money selling more military and nuclear technology to India.

This is yet another example of the SHOCK DOCTRINE and DISASTER CAPITALISM in action.

Actually, my screen name is a Tsarist Russian general. You fail on historical knowledge.

Pakistan's leader has everyone thirsting for his blood. There's a reason he ordered that crackdown on his domestic opposition. It wasn't for shits'n'giggles. He's scared to lose his life, and quite possibly to have Pakistan break apart even harder than it already has. The state is no better than Somalia, except that it has an army to unify it.

America hasn't sold much to India that I'm aware of, and the Indians don't and never have trusted us. After all, they were an ally of Moscow in the Cold War.

you apparently missed boosh's visit to india and his exchange of nuke tech for 'melons', literally. you also ignore the fact that mushy has already survived bhutto's early return through curfews and crackdowns. It's not like he hasn't had practice. and since you mentioned the army, you might want to focus on wherefrom mushy gets his power AND his political origins.

sorry general tsar, you fail on facts alone, so your hypothesis fails on substantiation.

don't take it so personally.

And everyone Bush touches turns to shit.

Musharraf is not an evil all-powerful dictator. Ya'll make him sound like Bush made Saddam sound.

Dictatorship is risky business. Adding to potential gunmen isn't fun.

Please, explain to me how a group of three gunshots is directly traced to Musharraf himself? There's no logical reason for him to kill her! Besides, it doesn't matter worth a damn anyway! He's beginning another 5 year term.

Bhutto would have at best weakened his position in Parliament. Musharraf is President. Bhutto would have been Prime Minister. Pakistan doesn't operate on the US system.

Why a President would kill a potential PM candidate, when he still retains vast power over the Army, which not so coincidentally hated Bhutto's guts, and which he could easily have arrested her with, escapes me.

If he wanted to do it, he'dve done it quietly. This....

too public.

Oderint Dum Metuant may have worked for Caligula, but the world, and the politics of dictatorships have had 20 centuries to move on.

CoIntelPro @ 85:

General_Rennenkampf @ 83:

Bhutto supported Al Qaeda and the Taliban, so of course they'd deny the assassination.

And even factions of a government do not always do what the leader wants. There's a long line of conjecture before going from random gunman to Musharraf. Or do you think those Christians that beat up that Jew in the subway were under Bush's employ to teach them Jews a lesson? Equal evidence for both assumptions.

why do you not mention the muslim who fought to protect the jew?

Because this is America! We have no class, and no memories either!

Yes, a Muslim fought to save him. Doesn't change the basic fact that on the same premise you believe that Musharraf would kill someone like Bhutto, that you could make an equal case for Bush's Christian supremacy to have encouraged anti-Jewish (and of course, anti-gay) hate crimes.

Bush is an idiot. So is Cheney. They aren't Blofeld and Doctor Evil. The way they handled everything so far (failure upon failure) should indicate that.

Edwin @ 87:

"Hit her head on the sun roof latch"-- right!! Did Dick Cheny write that?

You get a bullet shot into you, making you fall and then an explosion and the shock waves from that, you would die from a combination of all three.

Do I believe that, hell no.

Is it possible, hell yes.

There is no frikkin way that Bhutto could have died from a fall that short onto the side of the sunroof, handle or no handle. The medicos could have treated that kind of injury easily. Not to mention the pool of blood on the seat. I've seen and treated too many head injuries. The physics of her fall do not support the statement.

Mugsy @ 23:

The "official" story no longer washes (killed when explosion pushed her into the sunroof) when she clearly collapsed and fell into the vehicle *before* the explosion.

But that's a red herring. How do TWO men, one with a handgun and another in an explosive vest, get that close to a Presidential candidate 5 days before the election?

The Bush Cadre supported Bhutto because she promised to let U.S. troops in Waziristan to hunt down OBL, but when she started saying OBL was dead, and it started to look like she might win the election, the likelihood that she would keep her promise was dimming, so she had to be "taken out".

Are you saying that Bush had something to do with her having been "taken out"? Could you show some evidence of your statement?

curtilingus @ 14:

So we might have a 19 year old in charge of nukes.

Oh well. Old enough to launch the big one but not old enough to drink!

Drink is the stupid-drug, which happens to be the-legal-drug, but it dumbs you down. See BUSH. Most Muslims don't drink anyway. And I was smarter at 19 than Bush will ever be.

STOP George @ 91:

.
.
.
Sorry guys, as skeptical as I am, this video does NOT contradict the governments official story.

Look closely at the people surrounding Bhutto. They all lunge to the right in exactly the same way as Bhutto. Therefore, the way she reacts is not conclusive proof she was hit. Even her hair flying up does not necessarily prove that she was hit. I would think that it is quite possible that the bullet hit her hair (or grazed her hair) but missed her head.

.

Perhaps. But then you have to realize that the gunman took a prone position on top of the car, feet away from her, and had an excellent line of fire. Probably of gunman hitting her is far more likely than she was killed impacting a handle.

General_Rennenkampf @ 95:

Otay @ 89:

General_Rennenkampf @ 81:

CoIntelPro @ 79:

Where are the facts to support yours. Gunshot =|= to government conspiracy. Besides, even if it is the government, that doesn't mean Musharraf is behind it. It might well be the part of the Army that supports the Islamists! Your syllogism is faulty.

When every faction in Pakistan, except a very tiny minority, wants Bhutto dead, and an equal number wants Musharraf dead, it would be a good idea to look at other things besides the obvious.

The Islamists would love to see Karachi in their hands, though, the Army would have more to do with that than they. The Army itself is divided.

You still haven't explained how going from shots fired to Musharraf directly ordering her execution is logically feasible.

Big gap.

Except for one thing: both Al Qaeda and secular Pakistanis hate Musharraf far more than they hated Bhutto. And yet Musharraf is still alive, despite taking many more trips through Pakistan over the past decades than Bhutto ever did over the last few trips.

Musharraf is safe, and he will only be safer with further military crackdowns. This may even be the excuse (or scapegoat) he is looking for to cleanse the government of anti-Musharraf forces.

Furthermore, as others have mentioned, he now no longer has a rival to government power.

Al Qaeda also would hate the idea of a woman as leader of Pakistan even more. Al Qaeda's attitude towards women has Afghanistan as Exhibit A.

Musharraf isn't safe. In the riots that have gone on, and with many people aiming for him, it only takes one suicidal crazy to kill him. Kill Musharraf....Pakistan unravels. Pakistan unravels....cheeseburger in paradise.

Except that Musharraf uses real security for his own detail. He would never allow a gunman to crawl up on top of his car, lie down and take a well-aimed shot at his head. He would have different individuals in his security detail distrusting each other, and ready to take down rogue members. And he would have secret service type detail looking to shoot.

Sol the chance of anyone pulling anything like this off against Musharraf is almost nil. Just like it would be for someone to take down the president of the U.S. in such a manner.

But with just a few chances to succeed, it worked against Bhutto. At the very least, Bhutto was correct in asserting that Musharraf denied proper security services to Bhutto, so he is probably complicit, whether fully involved or not.

myiq2xu @ 45:

Todd @ 41:

All this proves that nuclear winter is coming soon! Bhutto was a crook and a feudal tribalist! How self important and pretensious was she to name her son anything! Kill them all! There is no other way! Otherwise they kill everybody else! And by all I mean everybody in Pakistan! Their ridiculous hate of India and embracing of a violent religion which condemns everything by hate and murder deserves destruction!

Uh, take your medication, okay? Come back and see us when you feel better.

Honestly Todd, where do people like you come up with such drivel?? Huckabee? I agree with myiq2xu; maybe even double it up and then take a nap.

BTW, Huckabee has been resurrected so the slumbering republicans can vote in 2008 after hearing the prophet's voice. Republicans get very excited when G-d and judgment is constantly reinforced into their reprobate mind. I mean on the liberals.

GWBush came as a compassionate christian and the republicans, I mean the fundies have not learned their lesson of another wolf in lamb's clothing.

Is Huckabee a vatican endorsed candidate?

I think we can say one thing about this. Reasonability-challenged loons like O'Reilly conclusively see Al Qaeda under their bed and everywhere they look, but there is a good chance that Musharraf was complicit here.

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Here's something interesting...

Toyoto officials are getting involved with the speculation and what they are saying is completely wrong...

But now Toyota officials in Islamabad, say that Benazir could not have been fatally injured even if her head hit the sunroof lever of the car.

The official speaking on conditions of anonymity said that

since the lever was installed inside the vehicle and

was at lead six centimetres from the edge of the sunroof,

it could not have caused the head injury.

The official further added the company is convinced that the lever could not be the reason. However they are still looking for more details.

This is pure bunk. As you can see in THIS PICTURE, the handle was completely outside of the car at the time of the attack and it was directly in the line of Bhutto's head.

I'm not sure what to take of these lies by the Toyota officials.

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and HERE IS A CLOSEUP OF THE SUNROOF LEVER.

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General_Rennenkampf @ 88:

you are blathering and inferring things that were expressed nor implied by other persons. you are doing said blathering as part of your attacks on rational, fact-based entries on this page. And you are insulting people for no apparent reason. I will ignore you henceforth. You are NOT entertaining.

CoIntelPro @ 112:

General_Rennenkampf @ 88:

you are blathering and inferring things that were expressed nor implied by other persons. you are doing said blathering as part of your attacks on rational, fact-based entries on this page. And you are insulting people for no apparent reason. I will ignore you henceforth. You are NOT entertaining.

Not to mention that CoIntelPro won the debate, hands down. Sorry mein general (even if you are a Tsarist).

CoIntelPro @ 112:

General_Rennenkampf @ 88:

you are blathering and inferring things that were expressed nor implied by other persons. you are doing said blathering as part of your attacks on rational, fact-based entries on this page. And you are insulting people for no apparent reason. I will ignore you henceforth. You are NOT entertaining.

Except that even with disaster capitalism, the whole idea is to fight a war without rich Americans feeling the pinch. Causing this would spark a war that would quite possibly force either a draft or gearing up for a real fight. This doesn't make sense by the BushCo team's MO. Why provoke a full-scale, quite possibly nuclear war? Is the Bush administration as suicidal as they paint the Iranian one to be? I haven't seen that quite from Bush'n'Cheney.

Also, rational and fact-based doesn't quite seem to cover how someone could trace three gunshots and an explosion to Musharraf. Now, the attack on Sharif would be a better argument, one I haven't heard anyone raise.

The fact that this election has nothing to do with Musharraf's position in the first place makes this all the more mystifying. The election isn't for President, it's for the Parliament! However, when the leaders of the big opposition movements are both attacked on the same day, something smells in Karachi.

No.116,

The fact is that Musharaf and Bhutto had differing views about democracy and one that is run by extremism (aka Bush Style), with fear factor OBL and the subtle invasion.

Musharaf had to rid Bhutto for she was a sane voice and reality to the present day Pakistan, if the Pakistanis preferred a democratic nation.

In the end, the Liberals of America is to be blamed for her death. The moment they try to meddle in Bush's politics, their men/women get killed.

118, WTF? How do you blame this on American liberals? Rational analysis would have said Bhutto's days were numbered to start with! Or, are you going to blame Hillary for this, in addition to Vince Foster?

Bhutto also may have spoken of democracy, but she only spoke of it. Her actions showed something very different.

STOP George @ 105:

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BTW, why the hell does it matter whether she was indirectly killed by a blunt object impact after a gunshot and explosion OR she was killed by the gunshot / explosion directly.

Can someone please tell me the importance of this distinction?
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The official story three days ago was...there were no bullet wounds...the "coroners" lied...

I do agree. My bad for hijacking the thread. Happy New Year to you, and to C&L in general.

milquetoast @ 122:

STOP George @ 105:

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BTW, why the hell does it matter whether she was indirectly killed by a blunt object impact after a gunshot and explosion OR she was killed by the gunshot / explosion directly.

Can someone please tell me the importance of this distinction?
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The official story three days ago was...there were no bullet wounds...the "coroners" lied...

Please provide proof.

The autopsy has not been performed yet.

You cannot say that "the coroners lied" with no proof. And again, the video does not prove that Bhutto was killed by a bullet.
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John West @ 4:

There are no questions being raised. She was shot. It's a cover up. The question is "who shot her." The answer is probably the person most afraid of her. Guess who that is?

Well, the one thing you can probably be certain of is there are no candle light vigils at Musharraf's house.

A message for baby Bhutto, stay far away from Bush. Seems like just about every world leader, or person who has leadership aspirations, who cozys up to the Toxic Texan seem to either loose their elections, their re-elections, have to step down in disgrace like Tony Blair, or winds up dead.

milquetoast @ 129:

STOP George @ 126:

milquetoast @ 122:

STOP George @ 105: The official story three days ago was...there were no bullet wounds...the "coroners" lied...

Please provide proof.

The autopsy has not been performed yet.

You cannot say that "the coroners lied" with no proof. And again, the video does not prove that Bhutto was killed by a bullet.
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the video "above" isnt that good...here is a little better...

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Video_The_most_conclusive_evidence_Bhutto_...

...my grandma coulda made that shot...

...her shawl...flipps up...she collapses....see it? Proof? ........yeah!

...the 1st Coroner lied!

...I know the people of Pakistan and Bhutto's family need (another)autopsy...(cuz of of this video) ...and because you can just never believe any govts "official story"

...but the assasis shot from 6-8 feet away!?!@^%$*

she was hit with a bullet ...and collapsed because of it...

...as usual, the official story is a lie.

As much as you want to huff and puff over it -- that is NOT proof.

and the fact that her head moves right into the handle on the sunroof panel shows that it is NOT a far-fetched notion for her to have fractured her skull on that object -- leading to death.

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131 STOP George Says: .

milquetoast @ 129:

…I know the people of Pakistan and Bhutto’s family need (another)autopsy…(cuz of of this video) …

An autopsy was never performed on Bhutto.

Nothing fishy about that, is there? Hose down the crime scene and bury the body ASAP!

STOP George @ 130:

milquetoast @ 129:

...her shawl...flipps up...she collapses....

and the fact that her head moves right into the handle on the sunroof panel

...Yes, ...our quotes (together) indicate for sure...that we each saw two different "things"

...I wonder if you saw the same video I did?....Hmmmm...I watched it a couple a' times and did not note "the fact" that her head "moves right into"...(the handle) "on the sunroof panel"???...*&$#@^

yeah...sunroof handle...ok.

STOP George @ 131:

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milquetoast @ 129:

…I know the people of Pakistan and Bhutto’s family need (another)autopsy…(cuz of of this video) …

An autopsy was never performed on Bhutto.

Watch this whole video!...perhaps you are correct? ...maybe there was no autopsy...but a spokesman (in this video) says quite clearly that there were no bullet wounds...@#%&*............clearly implying...that there was an autopsy!!!

...and of course he may be lying but...he said there were no bullet wounds!!!and in order for any rational person to make that statement ...at a press conference no less!...you would of course, have to perform some sort of exam no?....

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Video_The_most_conclusive_evidence_Bhutto_...

Edwin @ 135:

I didn't know that. Certainly they could give a cursory glance at the body to see if any of three bullets, or any shrapnel impacted or entered the body (especially around the head!!!!). And there is the matter of taking fire hoses to the crime scene, immediately. I'm sure that's not in Islamic law.

They did. And they did xrays. One of the medical guys was at a press conference with what he said was her xray and said that it showed no bullet.

But here's the salient point of this whole exercise everyone is arguing over. Benizir Bhutto is dead. Whether she struck her head ducking a bullet, or whether the bullet found its mark, or whether the explosion caused it, she's dead. And some overt act of violence caused it. Doesn't matter which scenario is correct. This petty argument is a distraction that siphons energy from real issues. I've said it in a few posts above on this thread.

As for the fire hoses-did you see the crowd? Do you think any forensic material would have been saved in the crush? Have you been in a crush like that? I have. Everyone is pushing forward toward the focal point and it's easy for something like that to turn into a mega trampling. It's extremely frightening.

milquetoast @ 139:

"...but it is very important to make note that ...Musharraf and his minions lied...

the official story isnt true...

Chimpys buddy Musharraf...looks real bad now!...security let that guy walk right up behind her...

Of course they lied. Everything the elites do is based on a lie. But the exact cause is minutia.

General_Rennenkampf @ 141:

Edwin @ 135:

miss_kitty @ 133:

Edwin @ 132:

Muslims don't do autopsies, as it violates the rules concerning the treatment of the body. and the body must be buried quickly. It's a cultural thing.

I didn't know that. Certainly they could give a cursory glance at the body to see if any of three bullets, or any shrapnel impacted or entered the body (especially around the head!!!!). And there is the matter of taking fire hoses to the crime scene, immediately. I'm sure that's not in Islamic law.

It probably is. Dead bodies, to Semitic peoples are unclean. Better to purify the region immediately instead of allowing the taint of a corpse to remain. Don't believe me? The Jews do the same thing.

Let me clarify. That's not a reference to Israel-Palestine, it's a reference to the 613 Mitzvot and the Talmud, before anyone makes the wrong assumption.

Some interesting things here:

1) Bhutto went down before the suicide bomber set off the explosion

2) The first doctor who examined Bhutto said she died of gunshot wounds

3) Witnesses said she was hit by the shooter

Nevertheless, I agree with Miss Kitty. The exact mechanism of death is not important here, but rather who the shooter and suicide bomber worked for, assuming there may have been more than two people involved (and with explosives, yes there probably were).

And even that is almost immaterial, since the perps will probably get away with it.

let's distinguishe between autopsy and examination.

Bhutto Report: Musharraf Planned to Fix Elections

McClatchy Newspapers' Saeed Shah reports that on the "day she was assassinated, last Thursday, Benazir Bhutto had planned to reveal new evidence alleging the involvement of Pakistan's intelligence agencies in rigging the country's upcoming elections, an aide said Monday."

CoIntelPro @ 149:

Otay @ 147:

I would think a doctor would know, even with an examination instead of an autopsy, the distinct characteristics of a gunshot wound -- entry wound, exit wound, gunshot residue, splatter, etc.

the doctors were apparently directed in what they could do or say

I was referring to the first doctor who examined her and said she had died of gunshot wounds. Not referring to later doctors.