Countdown: GOP's Problems With Huckabee
By Nicole Belle Friday Jan 04, 2008 11:15am
David Sirota has catalogued just how petrified the GOP punditocracy is of Republican presidential contender Mike Huckabee's populist rhetoric, especially now that it appears to have *gasp* appeal to Republican voters. And he was right, because they're now on the attack:
Download | play 
Download | play (h/t Heather)
On Friday's Countdown, Keith spoke to WaPo's EJ Dionne about the rising rhetoric to get Huckabee to toe the party line of indifference to the poor and tax cuts for the very, very wealthy. The press focuses on his appeal to the evangelical voters, ignoring that Huckabee is also saying the things that matter to the average Republican.
What irony. The GOP has spent the last sixty years trying to disenfranchise the common man from feeling like they have any importance on a national platform and reinforcing that corporations supercede the individual citizens, culminating in their perfect Manchurian president GWB and this is the thanks they get? A populist Republican???
Don't look now, but Mike Huckabee looks in line to get a few more delegates today when Wyoming Republicans hold their non-RNC-sanctioned primary.
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The big-money Repub and corporate interests could live with Hillary or Obama but not with Huck or Ron Paul.
I'm a Ned Lamont Dem but am rooting for Huck (and Paul) on the Repub side.
"Caring about poor people!" How dare they! Those SOB's had better start towing the line.
x-posted from here from ystdy:
It's interesting that the evangelicals are late to the party about caring about poor people politically. Could this be because "being poor" is no longer an exclusively minority endeavor? Looks like it may have started hitting the old collection plate.
Oh how sweet it is.
(Munching popcorn)
when i left the republican party it was over them being the "big business party"
huckabee is a christian that believes the earth is 6000 years old.
i hate the repubs
but he can snare a bunch of softy repubs...who if obama or clinton get the nomination...could lose us an election
huckabee is a real threat
only edwards can counter that threat
Coulter is fast becoming the Morton Downey Junior of the 2000's.
Only Morton was better looking.
-GSD
Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of arseholes!
If the Huck were pResident: http://www.womankinesmind.com/uploaded_images/TomBugID-779799.gif
This is confirming what I've thought (and hoped) for a while now: the fiscal conservatives and social conservatives are realizing they don't actually like each other.
Brought to you by the republicans:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llIiNOFJ1NU
I think the repub party politicos "let" Huckabee run figuring he had no chance, or that he would show them how much power the religious base had left. Like litmus paper. I think that he scares them as a valid candidate due to his son's dog torturing story.
That story will kill his chances faster than his religious zeal. Now maybe if the son had performed a religious sacrifice with a goat, or could spin it as such......
And brought to you by the republicans part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25wISP8-TVw
Actually in speaking about the evangelicals, it seems they have a different matter in mind then supporting candidates. Not sure if this was brought up already, but it is as important as that 'Importance of Christmas and Christians' resolution-thing passed last month(if not more).
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/1/4/24725/53989
Here is a summary of the first paragraph:
While the recent House of Representatives "Christmas resolution" was being covered and discussed ad nauseum on countless websites, blogs, and elsewhere, another far more heinous resolution was introduced, one which, unbelievably, does not appear to have been noticed by anyone.
On December 18, 2007, Congressman Randy Forbes (R-VA) introduced H. Res. 888, a resolution "Affirming the rich spiritual and religious history of our Nation's founding and subsequent history and expressing support for designation of the first week in May as 'American Religious History Week' for the appreciation of and education on America's history of religious faith."
This resolution, which purports to promote "education on America's history of religious faith," is packed with the same American history lies found on the Christian nationalist websites, and in the books of pseudo-historians like David Barton. It lists a total of seventy-five "Whereas's," leading up to four resolves, the third of which is particularly disturbing -- that the U.S. House of Representatives "rejects, in the strongest possible terms, any effort to remove, obscure, or purposely omit such history from our Nation's public buildings and educational resources," a travesty of the highest magnitude, considering that most of the "history" this resolve aims to promote in our public buildings and schools IS NOT REAL!
The thugs are disembowelling themselves over Huck.
Something quite similar is happening with the dems over Obama.
If you haven't noticed the vitriolic buildup on the blogs since the results, then you haven't been reading the comments. There are more potential outcomes on the dem side, and this takes some of the edge off.
But there's lots of really unhappy dems with fixed ideas about their candidates and that other lot, and you can't gain an inch on them through commenting. I'm sure some good comes from this airing of viewpoints, but most of what I've read looks like dogs barking at each other.
Point is, the fear of Obama as the dem winner is palpable. And that's not good. (I'm entering old-farthood, and I like Edwards, but I'll vote for the dem winner over any of that scum on the other side).
I nominate for Best Slam of the Week the following conversation between Tim Russert and Keith Olbermann
TR: Those Iowa caucus goers are real tough. They ask hard questions and "gasp" follow ups.
KO: Maybe you should write some of them down and use them.
I laughed my ass off.
Fuck evangelicals. Fuck Libertarians. Fuck the whole Republican party. Consign these pollyanna fairy dust "believers" to the dustbin where they belong.
Basically the Cons have been working on creating a country where people will say,
"Hire me, please! I will do anything for you!"
Even though I see Huckabee as a modern day Pharisee in religious terms, he is what the republicans deserve, a religious zealot [even though of the false prophet category] that scares the right wingers who only use the religious right for their zealotry and votes, when they need them but really do not want them too have any power or voice in party decisions, it does scare them, and I am not sypathetic for them for their plight, karma is a funny thing, the republicans have long paid lip service too Jesus teachings, claiming moral superiority too left wingers/democrats/etc, but giving too the richest 2% of society who need it the least, and then taking from the poor that welfare/dole check which they hate even though it is mere poverty for those getting it, kicking those lazy, shiftless on the dole out of those section 8 [slum housing tracts], and all in same breathe claiming they are christians of Jesus quality, saving these lazy poor whom they deem deserve their poverty by forcing them into main stream working society onto those minimum wage jobs [again poverty level income just a different form which benefits their corporate cronies], and all the time hollaring against raising the minimum wages too decednt living wages [it would hurt their corporate cronies and also cut into their dividend/stock profits as well], yes the republicans pay lip service too Jesus teachings of do not ignore the poor, hungry, naked those sick and in prison and now they have a false prophet candidate whom might just take power from the corporate elite who have for 60 years run the party, how sweet it is, even though I think Huckabee has no chance of winning in general election it is good too see the republicans split and divide and eat their own...
GOP Establishment Claims Huckabee Not Supported By Jesus, But Judas
The republicans have so screwed up the american economy, our standing in the international community, gotten us in a war with no end their hey day is over...
The problem is our ossified, categorized thinking processes. We're used to thinking Liberal versus Conservative in this country, certainly our mainstream media is used to that dichotomy, but the problem is not longer Liberal versus Conservative, it's Corporatist versus Populist, it's Fascism versus Democracy.
That's why Populists of ANY ilk, from Huckabee to Edwards, scare the bejeezus out of the Beltway crowd, while Corporatists, whether Clinton or Romney, console them.
This is all about the established and powerful corporate interests seeking to retain their hold on power in a democracy. The best way for them to do that is to disassemble the democracy, which is why classic Constitutional conservatives as well as fiscal conservatives are the natural allies of Democratic-party populists. Because the battle isn't the hairsplitting of what ratio of government resourcees should go to social services versus defense - the battle is now "How much of the Constitution will we allow the Corporations to destroy before we fight for our national heritage and identity?"
L.A. Confidential @ 18:
In which case they are immediately put into the 'this one is just hungry, and doesn't have incredibly high value to this organization' pile of resumes.
bob @ 17:
This ought to be the politically correct way of saying it.
I can't convey how nauseated I am over the subjects of religion, evangelicals, Jesus "Biblical values" in a political dialog, as is done in this clip.
Nobody dares to say, CUT THE CRAP and get on with the real issues.
Well on the thug side, their boy Mitt couldn't get the christy people behind them. Tsk, Tsk. If you're going to shore up that whole fundie crowd, you're nominee needs to believe in the same Jeebus they do. (And not the one who walked among the Indians).
What else could they do but go for the Baptist preacher?
What was that thing Grover Norquist said about government and a bathtub? Well, the thug party's breaking down into chunks that'll just about go down that drain. Good job.
Time is right to use this fragmentation within the GOP to eliminate both parties. If anyone doubts that the correct candidate may come along with an independent bid, and get the majority of votes..... Those of us that feel no connection to a "party" may get a chance to be a part of the 6 or 10 likely parties are in this country. Greens might make up about 20% of this country, and could then influence the government in such a way as to never be ignored again. Evangelists can get their 10% and affect legislation to the degree they are important.
Do you think reality might be a bit more prevalent if the sickening politicians listen to their voters rather than imagine what we want? In essence, politico's that are talking about what they intend to do would have some importance. That would be interesting considering how today, most ignore the wishes of a supermajority of americans. a supermajority folks. We can vote to add constitutional amendments for the things we want our government to provide for us. Health care, tax rates, wars started by presidents for personal gain..... one would seem out of place if real people lived in a real democracy.
It is time to make politicians appear for what they are, parasites. None have done anything for you and I in 7 years. How do you feel?
Albatross @ 22:
You might want to look at these things as being the same. Today, conservative MEANS corporatist, religious dominationist, fascistic. Liberal MEANS freedom and democracy. So, the liberal/conservative split is just the same. I stand PROUDLY on the side of Harry Bridges, Richard Dawkins and Al Gore. I'm not anti-capitalist, hell, I'm a business owner myself. But I don't have the right to abuse my employees and cheat my customers because the baby jesus or the fairytale free market told me to.
And I'm with Albatross.
I watched Ron Paul on Bill Moyers last night.
Basically what he said is Religion should NOT be the litmus test of a Candidate. It shouldn't even be an issue in these elections. Paul said he's a Christian but he doesn't wear it on his sleeve, and faith is best cultivated in the privacy on ones home or church. Not in the halls of government.
In general he suggested the Religious emphasis in this campaign is beyond ridiculous. Totally Unconstitutional.
Fascinating interview.
I wonder if Huckabee can stick to his populism?
Lollimom @ 24:
I agree and reccomend to everyone they watch Sam Harris: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3YOIImOoYM
I promise that...most of you will love this guy if you haven't heard of him yet.
If I wrote this song it would've been about the GOPs current situation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqE6ghPucxU
You wanna see Huck's problem with the GOP? Try the base...check this out...
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/5430078.html
(From the delicious Lucinanne.com...these people are one smidgen above the freepers. BTW, what DO the freepers say about Huck?)
L.A. Confidential @ 29:
If people want to know what Religion a candidate is fine. But they should leave it at that.
Thats the bottom line.
Lollimom @ 24:
There has simply been no more destructive force in history than "belief". I just don't give a shit what you believe. To believe means to not know. If you know something, you don't have to believe it. You know it. Belief implies non-rationality. By definition, a "leap of faith" requires spanning an unknown chasm, without KNOWING what the consequences or rewards might be. Sometimes this is the right thing to do. Nothing in this world is 100%. But to LIVE by constant leaps of faith, true or not, is to be subject to the wind. The reason world knowledge has progressed so rapidly since 1750 or so is PRECISELY because of the abandonment of belief in the unseen to actually LOOKING at things and finding that they most often have origins or motivations that are specifically not cause by some supernatural sky fairy. Do we know what happened at the precise origin of the time-space continuum? NO. Are we likely to ever know this? NO. The fact remains, here we are. Entertain us.
L.A. Confidential @ 29:
Fuck Ron Paul. His belief is in fairytale free market pixiedust.
Huck has that look: 'What am I doing here?'...oh...to play the bass, got it now.
wisedup @ 37:
Fucking Huckster almost makes me want to give up playing the bass.
Please call Huckabee by his proper alias, The HuckUp: Throw up and fuck up, two great tastes together.
mudkitty @ 33:
Religion should be KEPT OUT OF the public school system. Thats why there are Religious Schools.
Get a third or fourth job so you can afford to send your kid to a Religious Academy or Christian School if thats so important.
Otherwise have you kids say their Prayer's at home before they go to school! Kids go to school to learn 7 hours a day. That gives them 17 hours a day outside of school to dedicate to religion, faith, whatever you prefer to call it.
bob @ 36:
I never said I agree with everything he proposes. I'm talking about the Religious Dogma issue.
YAY!
Thank you, thank you, thank you, Nicole Belle!
We were watching this as a family last night and just after Keith said " . . . labeling Huckabee a Christian socialist because his economic policies fall somewhere to the left of screw the poor. . . " (which garnered laughter among us all) was a request to play it again . . . which we did and then what followed was a political discussion with my 15 year old, 21 year old, my husband and myself until 1am (thanks Keith, it was great)
I was so hoping C&L would put this up!
Thank you, Nicole Belle!
A lot of terms are being tossed around to describe the babbling Baptist minister, like 'Populist', 'Concerned Conservative', 'Compassionate Socialist', but what he has revealed himself to be, is a CrazyChristianEvangeilcalHoly-RollerFundamentalist Communist.
Which is a bit of a departure for the republican party, that the old-line fascist money-grubbing 'Damn the Poor', 'Reinstate Slavery', leaders of the party are finding difficult to swallow.
Could this foretell a revolution of the Super-Rich against the Poor? Follow the trends in the arming of yachts, and installation of Air-to-Ground missiles on G-5's, and private Airbus A380's, to determine our fate.
Janet @ 16:
Yeah I heard that too and love it!
bob @ 27:
bob @ 35:
Amen, I to have a small business and believe the same set of principlas, I treat my customers the way I would like to be treated. This means that I or you will never become rich, overconsumptive a-holes like most people in my industry (remodeling/cabinet shop).
Those disenfranchised common men always seem to vote for the GOP, though, don't they, regardless of who the standard bearer is.
Seams we are holding out to a sliver of hope, that a break from the industrial military complex, big bank control, Carlisle Group, rich and powerful etc. will actually happen and thus make America better. Don’t think it will happen. Pawns are pawns. I find it very hard to believe that any of these candidates has or will have “free will” or can effect TRUE change.
Think the French Revolution and then you have something. Whoever wins this election, either honestly (not) or by fair election will pander to the rich and powerful. We serfs, economic slaves, religious savants and patriotic gullible idiots will continue in our bondage and suffer consciously or not (live on SUVs and soccer Moms!)… Do you think the rich and powerful give a shit when they can get up and move anywhere on earth and still live the life of privilege and comfort? 4000 dead American Soldiers, mortgage crisis, job exportation is a piss in the pond, no sweat off their back…
Other than a true Revolution, my goal is to weed thru the shit and provide for myself a comfortable and sustainable retirement, if that is still possible in this Country. I guess you could call that a cop out. Maybe the Muslim suicide bombers don’t have it all wrong, other than the religious fanaticism. At least they are doing something (I DO NOT SUPPORT SUICIDE BOMBING).
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of
the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to
drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a
parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can
always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have
to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for
lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials
Do you really think this political process will produce any fundamental changes? Lip service is free.
Have I become so satirical and conspiratal that I have become numb and pathetic?
I have gotten to the point that I do not believe my own ears.
Isn't Huckster the guy who wants to replace income taxes with a federal sales tax?
I'm not seeing the populism there.
Can someone tell me why wealthy people are always villified? Just because someone is not poor does not mean we don't care. I grew up in a middle class home in a small mill town in northern Vermont and am now quite wealthy, due to my own personal investing in the stock market and real estate. as well as the corporation I founded and run. I want to protect my money. Yet, I also support entirely with my own money 42 kids in an orphanage in Nepal. I contribute to a refugee relief program and a food bank in my home town in Vermont, I volunteer, and my corporation employs and provides insurance and livelihood to more than 200 people. I don't need to apologize for my wealth, and I'm a proud fiscal conservative Republican who believes, as most Republicans, that government needs to stay out of my business, that government is nothing more than a big, badly managed corporation and that free enterprise always can do it better. I in no way "screw the poor", and I am proud that 200 people I employ earn good incomes and have medical care and can provide for their families from my corporation. I disagree with Huckabeee on both his religious fundamentalism and the fact he will be more of a big spender of our hard earned money whch the average american pays in taxes.
The repug owned and operated MSM will do to Huck what they did/are doing to Edwards.....they will point their cameras and commentary away from the Huckster and toward their last, best hope. They will hold their collective noses and vote for the known, but still manageable war-monger McCain. Caveat: Being seen in the company of Lieberman will make this strategy doubly difficult for them.
L.A. Confidential @ 41:
the "free market" and all its literature IS religious dogma. Bullshit belief in something that is either unprovable or DEMONSTRABLY untrue. Fuck Ron Paul. Period.
I have the same problem with Huckabee I have with Bush.
'God' sucked their brains out, and in exchange gave them the ability to fake sincerity, intelligence, and comprehension, all while babbling platitudes and fantasies and figments from the 'good book', and stealing, pillaging, and waging war on 'infidels', meaning all others.
Compassionate Conservatism...didn't another presidential candidate say he cared about the poor and would use his belief in Christ to funnel money into faith-based initiatives to aid the poor.? I seem to recall similar rhetoric from George W. Bush in 2000. How did that work out?
kerr @ 49:
John Edwards was raised poor and is now wealthy because he fought for the poor and the republicans villify him. If you are looking for sympathy, perhaps you should look at your own party.
Gorgei @ 31:
Great video. He lays out things I have been talking about for years. Fuck moderates. They are wishy washy enablers of increasing levels of abuse. It is NOT "moderate" or reasonable to accept faith in the baby Jesus over faith in Cthulu or Zeus or the Big Rock Candy Mountain.
the rapture bunnies need to kick wall street out of their party
kerr @ 49:
"rich people" are not always vilified. The rich who are vilified are mainly recipients of inherited wealth, the wingnut welfare system, etc. When a republican attacks John Edwards for being rich, he is disingenuous. Period. They use OUR rhetorical forms with false content. See?
kerr @ 49:
Sir Kerr, Obviously you believe in the concept of "noblese oblige", or a sense of obligation toward helping those less fortunate than yourself. You were doing fine until you stated that "free enterprise can always do it better". I don't want Blackwater protecting me for profit, thanks. I prefer service based upon a love of country, thanks. And where's the first place the "Free Marketers" go when their greed gets them into trouble? Can you say "Rate Cut" and "Government Bailout"?. Bring OUR troops home and let Blackwater stay in the Middle East in the employ of the TRUE perpetrators of this war...OIL Companies.
mchpp @ 47:
Sorry missed this in my triad...
Anyone given any thought about the economic war we are in with China now? Think about it, weak dollar means less value for what China produces and buys (oil and gold). Have you paid any attention to the rapidly growing Chinese military? Evan Japan has deployed anti ICBM missiles… Do you hear any talk about the economic and military situation with China on the big media? Iran, North Korea and Pakistan are small potatoes when it comes to REAL American national security.
Thanks if you read this...
Huckabilly is one of those fellows who converses with God. Guess what God is going to tell him, care for the needy, house the poor, feed the downtrodden. All values republicans despise. Couldn't happen to a more deserving bunch!! LMAO!!
Worse or is it best, Huckabilly doesn't know dick about sucking up to the Wall street pig men who run the country.
Lindy
Like I have said before, Huckabee is not the chosen one sent from the Death Star. Giuliani was supposed to be the one chosen by the masters.
Florida, mark this down, it will be rigged. Giuliani will win big big in Florida's Caucus and it will be rigged because the masters have demanded it.
Democracy LOL, Huckabee is too honest for the GOP. The GOP cannot stand honnest candidates.
kerr @ 49:
Why are wealthy people vilified? Are you so out-of-touch with reality and with the little people that you don't get it? Do you pay the same percentage of taxes that we lowly lower/middle-class peasants pay? How about Social Security taxes: Do you enjoy that cap on your taxes?
Let's start with "fair trade" laws, and how the wealthy corporations/individuals got government to drop import taxes on cheap goods from overseas, thus putting USA-made goods in the grossest of gross disadvantages. That's called "fair" by corporations: They get cheap goods and slave labor overseas, import it here, and pay ZERO penalties.
Let's mention no-bid government contracts.
Let's mention NAFTA (thank you, Bill Clinton). You call that fair, too, when it harms the lower/middle class in the USA and does nothing for the lower classes of Mexico? Who makes out in this "fair" game? Corporations.
I could go on and on, but your blather about being God to 42 orphans doesn't ring true, as well as your blather about being God to refugees and food banks. You as a corporation are analogous to God...okay, point taken, and dismissed.
bob @ 27:
That's a bit of a Humpty-Dumpty argument: will Liberal mean what it means, or will we change it so it means something else?
My point is that many of us and the MSM in particular are used to Democrat=Liberal=certain policies and Republican=Conservative=other policies.
But that battle is 90 degrees off of what's happening. Right now the Corporatists are disassembling our sociopolitical infrastructure, with everything from the sledgehammer of society-wide surveillance to the scalpel of Presidential signing statements to the acid of rationalized torture.
These people care not regarding liberal versus conservative - they want control of the whole thing.
That's why Populists (traditionally Democrats) and Constitutional Conservatives (traditionally Republicans) must come together. We can't keep saying "Fuck the Republicans" because that's oldthink: there are corporatist Democrats, and there are Populist Republicans.
And we can't use the term "Conservative" because real-live conservatives are our allies in this venture. Neo-conservatives, corporatists, fascists, those are all applicable terms for the creatures of ANY party or NO party who choose to advance the interests of the powerful, wealthy authoritarians over the hertiage and character of our nation.
It's Populists and Conservatives versus Corporatists as far as I'm concerned. Labeling things otherwise simply confuses the issue.
(Oh, and I'm a business owner and my name is Bob too, so we have a lot in common.)
Can a VP have a third and fourth go? They'd need Dick Cheney still for protecting the corporate interests against another evangelist/born again fool.
When are the blogs and national media going to talk about Huckabee's Handmaid's Tale?
This was written by the editor of the Arkansas Times...a must read if you want to know more about "populist" Huckabee:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/11/13/huckabee/index1.html
Huckabee insists he's not one of those harsh, punitive, "angry" conservatives, but again, there are witnesses who might say otherwise if anyone's interested.
Ask the retarded Fort Smith teenager, raped by her stepfather, who sought Medicaid funding for an abortion as federal law required. Huckabee stood in the hospital door, at least figuratively, to prevent state funding. Ask the gay people belittled by his cracks about "Adam and Steve." Ask the scientists who've seen evolution virtually disappear from the textbooks and classrooms of Arkansas with his administration's acquiescence.
Social issues alone should give moderates pause. He championed a law in Arkansas making it harder to get a divorce, the so-called covenant marriage law that has been widely ignored except when he and his wife recommitted in a Valentine's Day publicity stunt held in a 17,000-seat arena.
Huckabee's administration worked hard and unapologetically to prevent gay people from being foster parents. He avidly supported the state amendment that bans gay marriage as well as civil unions and bans any equal treatment under the law -- such as in health insurance coverage -- for same-sex partners. He professed opposition to alcohol and gambling, but he allowed passage of legislation that made it easier for restaurants to obtain private-club mixed-drink permits in dry counties. Over the angry objection of the church lobby, he sped final action on a bill to allow video poker at the state's racetracks, an act followed not long afterward by a $10,000 campaign contribution from the owner of the state's biggest race track, at Oaklawn Park in Hot Springs.
When you get down to basics, the only problem the GOP has with Huckabee is that he exists.
Get one of Lee Atwood's descendants to plant some dope on him, and have him busted by the D.C. cops, just before a gang war breaks out between the illegal aliens in the Mexican Mafia and the police, and have Huckabee assassinated.
Simple for a good republican 'fixer'.
Ain't no problem can't be solved.
a tax cut allows my corporation to save thousands in capital gains taxes and hire more employees,.If that tax cut saves a single mother $40, that is a good thing. Lower taxes allow more spending, saving, and investing which helps the economy — that means all of us.
Real conservatives have always supported low taxes and low spending.
We are nine trillion dollars in debt as a nation. Our mounting government debt endangers the financial future of our children and grandchildren. If we don’t cut spending now, higher taxes and economic disaster will be in their future — and yours.
Amd countries like China and Saudi Arabia, it is their banks who are financing a lot of our debt. which means we are in some ways beholden to them. Is this what you want?
I agree with you. Lollimom. We need to use the power of our pocket book to force companies to keep their workers in the USA, to provide jobs here. And that means also forcing our government to stop subsidizing many of those countries, as they are doing by making huge loans to countries like China, a country with a horrific human rights record. Or stop us from buying oil from countries like Saudi Arabia, which still does not allow women the right to vote or drive and hangs women for adultery. We are buying their oil to drive our cars. We as a people need to stand up in protest.
I am lucky. I have been able to keep my company here in the usa without outsourcing our manufacturing (of exercise equipment) to south asia or Mexico. But if i were not given more tax incentives, I would not be able to afford to do so.
I'm not a "god" for doing good causes. My point about volunteering and giving donations and supporting orphanages (or however any of us choose to give back) is that i got that money through hard work and investing my own money. If I had more of it through less taxes, I would have more to spend in the way I see fit, not in the way my government tells me to. I don't want big government on my back. That's my point of view, and I respect yours.
Albatross @ 63:
All republican business owners are named 'Bob'. It's a common contraction of 'Boob'.
Thank you, Bob! you expressed it eloquently. I, too, am a constitutional conservative. And i'm not a bad guy! in fact, I'm a woman!
Albatross @ 63:
I see your point, Bob, but conservatism at it's core is oligarchic or plutarchic, certainly aristocratic in its view. Democracy, to be DEMOcracy can not be aristocratic in nature. Noblesse Oblige was honored mostly in its breach. Jefferson, I believe, once said, "speak to me no more of confidence in men, but bind them with the chains of the constitution." Trust but verify. Regulate and protect from fraud as well as overt violence. This is a nation of laws constructed by the representatives of the people. That "conservatives" can use the forms of democracy and obfuscate issues to create a more authoritarian society for YOU and freedom to freeboot and be bigoted for THEM, simply means we must be vigilant to THEIR mendacity, NOT be more like them. When you catch the flies with honey, you don't make friends with them, do you? They (the conservatives) are disingenuous to a fault. There monolithic view makes them think EVERYONE has that monolithic view even in opposition. We of the left are NOT monolithic by nature. And that is the split. Monolith vs Multilith. We are tolerant of them because they by definition are a subset of Multilith. They are NOT tolerant of us because we are NOT a subset of Monolith. They must RULE over us so our multi-ness doesn't contamintate their mono-ness. They are Borg. They are the Hierophant. We threaten their oneness. The label doesn't matter. The form doesn't matter. The content remains the same.
Kerr, I don't think the rich are always vilified. I think the Bush mis-Administration should be vilified for putting the interests of corporations and the wealthiest of the wealthy in this country above all other segments of the population.
If I were, in fact, wealthy you bet that I would take advantage of every single advantage and tax loophole I could.
bob @ 70:
Excellent post, bob! Take a bow!
I, too, am a business man. My first investment was to hire a K-street lobbyist. He secured a government contract for me to build some stuff to sell to the government for some secret program. The contract was for $100M, and I agreed to contribute $1.5M to the political campaigns of the Congressfolk responsible for securing the contract, plus hiring one of their mistresses for $250K/year, as my assistant.
I employed a Senator's wife who had a secret s clearance to travel to China to find a company who could make this stuff, and she got a good supplier at an excellent price, $2M for the whole lot. Her cut was 10% of the profit, or $9.65M. This left me with a gross profit of $80.85M, before administrative expenses, and enabled me to buy a membership in the president's 'High Flying Eagle Club', which entitled me to order pizza in for my overnight stays in Lincoln's old bedroom.
And, not incidentally, earned me another contract for some more secret stuff for the CIA, for $3.5B. I made a profit of $2.98B on that deal. I am still waiting for my secret clearance, which seems to be held up on some technicality of a mail-fraud and bribery case I pleaded guilty to a couple of years ago, so I don't know what the 'stuff' was in my contracts, but it sure made me some bucks.
I'm almost ready to buy me another Senator and a couple more representatives, and expand my business to Lichtenstein and the Caribbean.
I'm gonna build a home in Thailand to support some of the bastards I and my pol friends have fathered there in the past couple of years, it'll look good on my resume, and be a helluva tax deduction, if I ever file a return.
A Christian who cares about poor people? Hmm, isn't that what Jesus did? If you catch of clip of the song that band with Huckabee on bass played at New England College, it was "Fortunate Son" by Creedence Clearwater Revival. That is a quite angry song about how the rich and powerful rattle their sabers for war, but then don't send their sons to fight, leaving it to the poor sons to do so. It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no Senator's son. Hmm, I have a feeling that song choice was deliberate, and a clever dig at Willard Romney as well. It may also have been an unintentional dig at George W. Bush, who is the son of the rich and powerful and the grandson of a Senator.
I hate to sound so grimm...but these "evangelicals" scare the ba-jesus out of me. As an Agnostic I study theology(and think it was nessecary for human evolution of society, but no longer needed) and these American Christians mix alot of Jingoism and Nationalism into their identity. If any of you have seen clips from Jesus Camp you know where I am coming from and what I am talking about. They make video games that outline killing non-Chrisitans when a disaster takes place. If another 9/11 or worse takes place...these cuckoo's will think it's the end and try to pull off an international Jonestown or Waco. I don't think most Christians are like this, but alot of American Chrisitians make me nervous!!!
bob @ 35:
Well said. The only thing I would add is that some people claim to "know" something because they believe it. They bridge this logical gap by saying, "I know it in my heart" (as opposed to my mind). We call these people Bush Administration Officials.
Like Andy K said @72, nice comment @70, Bob.
I had to laugh at the "Did Populism Win and America Lose?" false choice-smear by Fox News. When has populism ever been bad for a country? Maybe it's possible to cherry-pick a few examples over history, but that line really seems to betray the whole Fox News, rich conservative agenda. Poor and middle class social conservatives are useful tools for rich and powerful social conservatives, as long as they vote the way they want them to. But heaven forbid they get uppity and vote some other way! "Did Populism Win and America Lose?" What could be worse for the country than average citizens having their say? ;-)
Question Blog @ 6:
Huckabee probably is Old Earth Creationist. Why? He didn't outright state that Man's wisdom is Wrong and God's Wisdom is BetterTM. One thing my YEC friends don't lack, and that I wish my evolution-accepting friends had is cojones.
Evagelicals suddenly care about the poor because there are millions of faith-based dollars at stake. Gays are good for getting out the vote but it's faith based dollars that get's you church buzz. Church buzz gets you followers and followers get you into mega-church land....oh, and somewhere in there you get a really nice car. Religion; brought to you by the federal government.
Yes, the GOP has created a little monster with the religious right. They courted them for their votes, duped them with to Bush (a faux evangelical). Guess they've grown up, realized they were duped, and now that they have a political voice are making demands and not towing the party line. Poor GOP. I think they've also started to realize what a big fat phoney Rush Limpbrain as well.
bubba @ 79:
AMEN!!!!LOL
Wyoming's rogue Republican primary? Huckabee? Whaaa.....
God help me this may be the ONLY time I say this: Go Ron Paul!
If Wyoming votes for anyone BUT Ron Paul by 20% then it just isn't the same state I've known for the past 30 years. You want God, move to Utah. You want guns, stay in Wyoming. It's supposedly a "libertarian" state (no corporate or personal income tax, "hunting holidays", etc.). Neither of them particularly like gays, but then none of the Republican candidates do either.
Nicole Belle: I just checked CNN. They are projecting it as a win for....MITT ROMNEY, who will pick up 6 delegates. I'm gobsmacked about it myself.
Wow. You're right. 91% reporting...
Romney___73%
Thompson_18%
Hunter____9%
Giuliani__0%
Huckabee__0%
McCain____0%
Paul______0%
Figures. Lot of imports in that state in the last 10 years from Texas, Oklahoma, and uber-wealthy California. I guess I get Thompson or Hunter for those people as well. But 73% for Mitt, ZERO for Paul? Wow. They should be embarrassed.
Glad I left. Libertarians I can at least have some respect for. And I dislike the good ol' boys that voted for Thompson, but it makes sense. But "Double Gitmo" flip-flopper? Must be the reagan hair. 9% to a Californian big government chicken-hawk? Sad days, even for the guys on the other side.
CD @ 30:
If there's one thing I have learned the last 12 years or so, it's to never, ever, ever, ever trust a Republican.
Thanks for talking him up, he will need all the independent and Democrat votes he can get. Huckabee will win because his appeal is straight in the middle. It's a formula Democrats would have won with, but were unwilling to do because they did not want to give up their social liberal base.
You must be kidding. The Dems gave up their "liberal" base a long time ago.
In any case, if Huckabee is truly a populist and he becomes a problem for the powers that be in the GOP, there's always what I call the Cheney "nuclear" option, playing out the following scenario:
Say, perhaps, that Huckabee makes a strong showing through "Super Tuesday," and poses a serious threat of clinching the nomination. Shortly thereafter, Vice President Dick Cheney suddenly develops serious heart problems and has to resign. Presented with the opportunity of picking a new VP and a still compliant Democratic Senate, Dubya picks Rudy Guliani, or perhaps Mitt Romney, who suddenly becomes the heir apparent and the Republican front runner, overtaking Huckabee in a media-inspired frenzy.
Of course, if that doesn't work, there's always a black bag over the head and a swim in cement underwear in the Potomac... ;-)
kerr @ 67:
Lowering taxes on the rich improves things inside the US for that single mother? NO
See this is where the past few years proves you wrong, the rich take their tax cut and invest or spend it outside the US.
Give the poor and the middle class a larger tax cut than the rich and require the rich to pay their fair share (which they are not now) and that money will be saves, reinvested and spent inside the US.
YOu will create jobs because you are making more money - not burdening the working poor and middle class because you are not paying your fair share.
BTW that $40 "fair" and "compassionate" tax cut didn't even give that single mother a weeks worth of groceries.
NO president has ever cut taxes while the nation has been at war. You have your low taxes and you have your war, and our country is trillions of dollars in debt.
Get a grip, we will have to have higher taxes to pay for the mess your party gave us.
And I bet you are unwilling to pay higher taxes to get us back to a surplus, refitting our military, paying for veterans healthcare and doing all those things that are necessary.
Who got us in to this trouble that risks our children and their children's future. It certainly wasn't a democrat. We had a surplus befor Bush (how many times did you vote for him?)
So yes let's cut off spending now because YOUR party put us into this mess.
When are you going to hold your party responsible? (You who have benefitted the most from Republican policies that favor the rich and screw everyone else)
When are you loudly and consistantly going to call for these people to be held responsible - even if it means they go to the hague.
My guess is never.
NO but it is what YOU wanted every single fucking time you voted for Bush or a Republican congressperson or senator, didn't protest what they were doing just raked in the cash.
Don't blame us or rope us into a problem your party and YOU by being a Republican, and never demanding that your party actually do OVERSIGHT have created.
We've known about this for years. We warned people. We were made fun of by YOUR side, called naive, stupid, and worse.
This is where you make NO sense, we are making hugh loans to China who we in turn owe trillions of dollars to? Did you actually read what you wrote and see a contradiction?
BTW who gave China MFN status in the first place ? -- hint it was our current president's daddy. . . who'd have guessed, another republican
Oh heere is the typical republican bait and switch ... we're beholding to Saudi Arabia (Carter warned us about that- but your side won't listen) and what about those poor Saudi women, what are we going to do for them?
those are separate issues
What about those tax incentives Reagan did away with for developing alternative fuels? Or is he still you guy's hero.
Why don't you are a republican stand up and call out the pushing back of higher cafe standards. The technology already exists today and is used in Europe. YOur rich buddies aren't done raking in the $$$$$ for oil yet though.
Why aren't we doing more to push solar and wind .. oh yeah, oil companies and rich republicans don't make money on that.
Has Halliburton given you a call yet?
bet if more poeple could afford to buy your goods or had the time to use them instead of needing a second job to pay for things they needed, you wouldn't need those tax encentives.
Exercise equipment -- a luxury item, what is the average income range of the people who buy your product.
.
kerr @ 67:
BTW Kerr, in case you didn't know, war is NOT a low spending item.
Probably shouldn't tell the Repugnicants if they haven't figured it out, HuckThin's sales tax wet-dream makes their estate tax campaign look like a flat-chested virgin--excuse my Republican-values language.
In case you didn't infer it from my earlier post, the positioning of Huckthin as the Wallfart Wonder makes me sick. Even if his brand of populism should be branded with the empty yellow smiley of Wallfart, I can't fathom this obsession with having politicians would be great to have a beer (Milwaukee's best/Schaeffer/Puke) with...but who wouldn't dream of having a beer with you because they've been born again. Please tell me Dumya hasn't permanently replaced competency with the keep the press corps entertained version of The American Idle
It is no surprise that the GOP is against a so-called populist candidate. The GOP is a hierarchical, top-down, centrally directed beast. That is its nature, because it is populated almost exclusively by members who are constitutionally disposed toward right-wing authoritarianism as salient features of their basic personalities. Their ideal is a pyramid which supports a topmost teir of elites. The sole and exclusive function of each succeeding lower teir is to support all those above it. They have no other reason for existence.
A populist movement, be it driven by religious influences or even fanatic advocates for the severe totalitarianism, is intolerate to the GOP, because it attempts to turn the pyramid upside down. If successful, such a movement would at very least turn the elites into servants. That prospect , is anethema to any domineering authoritarian.
The conservative impulse is much driven by fear and a craving for safety. What is feared is the unknown, the other, the one not like "us". That fear becomes manifest amongst conservatives as a reverence for uniformity and conformity. Their craving for safety is made manifest in a resistance to anything that represents change. New ideas, especially ideas that might require serious thought are never welcomed. The drive to preserve the safety of the known, and the safe, must eventually produce a community-wide, near-mindless kind of inertia, which death spirals down into uniformity of thought, belief and behavior. Safety in sameness. When those who are fearful by bent of basic personality unite, the conservative community is the result. And, control becomes a thing beloved.
The pyramid, as a symbol or as a hierarchical model of society, is a thing of stability and safety to the conservative soul. Anything that threatens to upset or turn the pyramid on its point is a thing straight out out of a night terror to the elites at the pyramid's topmost tier.
You can be sure that the elites in the GOP are deeply troubled by Huckabee. Even though he is an ultra-rightwing nutcase from the perspective of a progressive liberal, the GOPer elites will see him as an intolerable leftwing threat.
It's going to get interesting.
clytemnestra, we have had many wars under democrats, as well. you also are under the assumption that being conservative means being pro war, and that is simply not true.many conservatives like myself are against war. Ron Paul is against the war! He's also libertarian and wants the government out of his face (as do I). i am against PREEMPTIVE WARS. not all wars are wrong. Going into Afghanistan was not wrong, and our administration should have realized the Taliban and Islamic fundamentalists would eventually try to destable Pakistan, as well. All Bush's energies were focused on Iraq, while Al Quaeda was based in Afghanistan and the northern border region of Pakistan, where Osama Bin Laden is probably hiding. and Saudi Arabia, where most of the 9/11 hijackers came from, has been virtually ignored. why? OIL. Unless we as Americans cut back on our thirst for middle eastern oil, then countries like Saudi Arabia, who still behead women for committing adultery, will get off scot free.
I take the tax breaks i get and reinvest them.that's how i run my company which manufactures exercise equipment and employs 200 people in a small vermont town. that's how most wealthy people (like myself) got wealthy. I didn't start off wealthy, by the way. No Paris Hilton here! But I invested what I earned. So, by the way, did John Edwards. He made millions representing women whose children were born with cerebral palsy, claiming that it was in some way the fault of the doctors, even though most research says cerebral palsy is a genetic defect and not related to the childbirth itself. Does anyone bother to mention that Edwards is a very rich man? Yes, he is a populist. But so am I. I just believe the way to go about it is not for the government to spend more of my hard earned money. In fact, although I don't support Ron Paul, I do support the fair tax, which would abolish the IRS altogether. Talk about a populist viewpoint. And, gosh, I'm a conservative!
If you want fair, think the "fair tax". It has its problems, but in my view, is the fairest idea of all. Get rid of the income tax entirely and institute the fair tax.
as for war, not all conservatives are supportive of the war (at least not preemptive wars). I wish people would understand that. Being conservative does not mean being callous and uncaring! i'm a fiscal conservative and socially more liberal. However, I think that governments never can do it as well as private enterprise. What is a government but a big, badly managed, overblown corporation? and i don't want the government in my business telling me how to spend my hard earned money, or how to live my life. I'm a libertarian in that sense. i also support 200 hundred employees, paying them fair wages and giving them health insurance and have managed to keep my company here in vermont and not outsoure our manufacturing to mexico.
Finally, as for war, we have been paying for a huge, overblown military for years now, under Democrats as well as Republians.that's nothing new. I'm opposed to premptive wars,not war. if Bush had gone into Afghanistan or,god forbid, Saudi Arabia (where most of the 9/11 bombers came from), we might not be in the mess we are in now.
they will swiftboat butt fackabee
kerr @ 92:
Yes, but NONE of them cut taxes and then expected to finance the war.
So where have you been in protesting the war? In standing up at peace vigils, going to camp Cassey, in writing letters upon letters, in standing up and saying your a conservative against the war ... or were you just going to let the Democrats take the slings and arrows for the past 6 years?
Ron Paul is only a libertarian on the campaign trail, his voting record says something else entirely.
How green is your factory?
I noticed last night you use "tax breaks" and "tax incentives" interchangeably. They are not the same thing. Pick one.
And CP being totally genetic. . . really? so doctors should go back to using forcepts in delivery?
So you're saying that the rich don't take their money and invest it over seas? That they are so pure that they reinvest it only in the US? So why are there all those "american" companies who have their addresses in the Cayman Islands?
You may but that doesn't mean that all rich people do.
Yes, so was FDR, what of it?
There you go confusing fair tax with fair share. You benefit the most from this country and so do your children. You should pay your fair share.
You as a single entity may not be, but having a Republican government (which is what you have not addressed, what have you done, if anything to hold those you held in power for 6 years with no oversight) bring back a Robber Barron nation is not caring and it is callous.
Yes and blackwater runs a war better than the US Military, that privatizing military hospitals has increased the level of care, that privatizing health care so that people make more money on how much care is denied works out so well for the populous, and on and one and on
See there's your problem, government is NOT a corporation and cannot be run like one.
Good for you. But the government is already in your business by telling you to have fire exits and fir suppression equipment in your factory, by dictating fair hiring and how long a work day is, etc. etc. etc.
You may be a wonderful employer it doesn't mean all are. In fact a friend of mine, because of unsafe working conditions and lack of lighting (which the employees went to the employer about) fell from the top of a fork lift in the warehouse and his employers have been refusing to pay for his disability, etc.
And before you give the Republican line of he should have quit and gone somewhere else - when the economy suck and you have a family to feed you take any job you can get -- he's actually a computer IT person.
Bush was right to go into Afghanistan and wrong to take us to Iraq. We are paying more for Blackwater then we would have just making sure we had a large enough force to do the job correctly in the first place.
I guess you were upset when Clinton sent us intro Kosovo. When our government actually worked.
But you still haven't said that your party is responsible or that what you've done in the past 7 years to stand up to your party.
This depiction of Huckabee as a champion for the poor and downtrodden would be most moving if it did not come with so many caveats. Huckabee makes no bones that his concern lies only with Christians, preferably white, and if you fall outside of that circle in any way then you are not worth his spit. He has little to no interest in wooing women, gays, or people of other faiths, and is campaigning primarily on the promise of being a Christian president who will be taking the country "back for Christ". This means that he has no interest or intention of representing or looking out for the basic human rights of more than one-third of the population of this country. That is one of the scariest things I have ever heard and yet it either goes unaddressed or is diluted amongst a bunch of garbage about where he stands on fiscal issues. He honestly and unapologetically believes that women are second class citizens in comparison to men. He doesn't seem to believe that gays should have any rights period, much less equality, and their behavior should be criminalized. He pitches 90% of his rhetoric squarely at Evangelical Christians and seems to feel that the approximately 25-million agnostic/atheists, 6-million Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc., born and raised in the US are some kind of mutant breed that do not need any consideration unless they convert and become his brand of Christian. Whenever a law inconveniences him, he waves it aside because apparently so long as he is convinced that he is a tool of the Lord, nothing else matters, including the lives of those his decision ends or shatters. His foreign policy knowledge is even more remedial than that of the current resident of the White House and he hopes to prevent our schools from teaching anything that may be remotely controversial to his strict Christian outlook, which means the number of successful US workers in the science industries will plummet to nil and we fall further behind on the world stage. Not only that but am I the only one concerned that one of his biggest devotees is Tim LeHaye of the rapture-ready, Left Behind series, who froth at the mouth to instigate anything that will bring on the end of the world. Is Huckabee a man that I would trust meeting with foreign leaders of divergent religious backgrounds or, even more frightening, trust with a nuclear arsenal? Hell, NO.
So yes, while it is amusing to see high-powered Republicans having their asses bitten by the monster that they created, let's not laugh too much because this Monster has a real shot at the White House, which spells bad news for anyone who isn't an Evangelical Christian. And let's be serious, with the Evangelical churches compelling them, the rank-and-file sheep, especially across the South and the Midwest, are more than willing to throw their vote to Huckabee because they have been conditioned to believe that issues like equal rights, the Iraq War, health care, global warming, etc., are inconsequential when you have a man willing to take back the country by any means possible "for Christ". Or should we say Huckabee's Evangelical Christian version of him. In fact, I don't see any way that he could be discredited in the eyes of these voters unless someone catches him on camera snorting coke off the naked backside of a male hooker while on an altar. E.J. Dionne's view that the right-wing Evangelical Christians don't per se want a theocracy is almost laughable in its naivete. They have admittedly been scheming, plotting and infiltrating various departments of the government for decades waiting for the right candidate to come along to set up just such a theocracy and they have never cared who knew it because no one took them as a serious threat until recently. At the opening of this campaign, they were loud and clear about splitting from the Repub Party unless they got their theocratic, biblical-inspired candidate and Huckabee is just the one.
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