Good news, bad news on the economy
The good news is, the often-confused president seems aware that the economy is facing serious challenges.
President Bush, in a marked shift from his usual upbeat economic assessments, conceded here on Monday that the nation faces “economic challenges” due to rising oil prices, the home mortgage crisis and a weakening job market.
“We cannot take growth for granted,” Mr. Bush said in a speech to a group of business leaders in which he acknowledged that “recent economic indicators have become increasingly mixed.”
The bad news is what the White House wants to do about it.
When the economy was (sorta, kinda) strong, it showed that tax cuts work, and so we needed to make the Bush tax cuts permanent. Now the economy is falling off a cliff — although according to the White House, nobody is predicting a recession (I seem to know an awful lot of nobodies) — and you know what that means: we’d better make the Bush tax cuts permanent.
The perfect Republican economy"I got mine the hell with you"
Man, if they could cut taxes on the rich into the negatives, we'd grow like millions of percent and be successful beyond belief! I saw it once from some dude talking about a 'curve' drawn on the back of a napkin!
tjb @ 1:
Nah, thatisthe Libertarian ideal Economy.
Republican economies are more like: "I got mine, now gimme yours sucker..."
but what happened to all those great "McJobs?"
But hey, look on the bright side of things:
Wages of the average worker in the U.K. are now higher than the average American for the first time since the 19TH CENTURY.
The nation is deep, deep debt to Chinese banks. We're spending ourselves into a hole with dumbass wars (and looking like war criminals doing it). Our currency is a joke as the fed prints new treasury bills, expecting us to believe the dollar has the same value, in a shell game akin to selling you the fiction that Coca-Cola is as valuable as crude oil. My savings are becoming worthless, so I'm induced to borrow and spend on credit like there's no tomorrow, and I'm not going to blink because your kids and future generations are gonna pick up the tab. Fat chance, with their $50,000 college degrees they'll be lucky if they even have a chance to score a manufacturing job, 'cos we're sending those offshore. Tough shit kids, you'll be moaning and I'll be dead. And just remember, the real problem with America today is that some slimeball racist plant donated $100 to Ron Paul's campaign. Keep fiddling while Rome burns...
below_me @ 4:
Great, we can all go "manufacture" hamburgers! That's the Republican dream!
WOoooooHOoooooo! A recession! Maybe.... if we're lucky........we'll have a depression...WOOooooooooHOOooooooooo Tax cuts for everybody!(just not you lowlifes on the bottom)....letum eat dirt.
How to look stooopid-- Permanent tax cuts for the filthy rich as a cure for the second great depression...
Lowering taxes with a burgeoning deficit is like quitting your job when you discover the excess of your credit card debt.
Bush economics =The Stone Age
Why we keep looking to a guy who ran every business he ever helmed into the dirt for leadership on our nation's economy is beyond me.
Although the market ended Monday up 30.21, shortly after Bush made his statement, it dropped sharply into negative territory.
By the end of bushco, the national debt will be 10 trillion. Interest on ten trillion? a mere 500 billion at preferred rate.
I think I’m going to change my name to lucky, and take a vacation.
My life is a full house. Aces and kings.
Kiss, kiss, kiss. Dance, dance, dance.
I guess I’m living a charmed life.
I could stuff my pockets full of ten dollar bills.
But then what would I do with all these twenties?
Lets go to the beach and go swimming.
I guess I’m living a charmed life.
This piece is wrong on both counts. The Bush tax cuts only put greater funds into the pockets of the upper 2% of tax payers. That's why people like Warren Buffet pays less in tax on his billions than his secretary that makes considerably less.
The second observation is also incorrect as todays headlines on Bloomberg as stated by analyists at Merrill came out this morning that we are already in a recession which actually began in the fourth quarter of 2007 when employmnet took a nose dive with no end in sight.
Inflation continues to rise because the Fed keeps pumping more and more worthless dollars into the system and as a further indication of inflation, both gold and silver are going through the roof. Just this morning gold rose over $16 an ounce and is within striking distance of $900 per ounce. Just four years ago it was down at $250 an ounce and there isn't any better a barometer for inflation than the rising price of gold. The economy is going into the tank, the the Bush administration has done nothing to help the middle class what's left of it while lining the pockets of the rich.
Did anyone mention how the hell we are going to pay the debt this dumbf*ck administration has handed to us?
Tax Cuts!? So we'll continue to have deficits, leading to printing more money, which leads to inflation and even weaker dollar, which leads to further increased in the cost of oil, which leads to further recession.
Oh great.
Nothing like jettisoning the parachute in the middle of the fall.
I'm predicting a recession.
Mike Donnelly
Chief Economist, PBP
So is David Rosenberg of Merrill Lynch, and very surprisingly the usually optomistic Dick Berner of Morgan Stanley, Northern Trust, Camilli Economics and a handful of others. The minority yes, but pretty good company in my book.
off topic/ I guess Huckabee was on Letterman and was asked the question."Do you think the candidates are running for Love of Country,because the feel they are doing this for the best interest of the Country?".......his response .........The House is big......//Now.......This was on Morning Joe this morning....and Joe Scarburro started laughing and saying "that's what I love about this guy"....Not Funny Joe...........that was a serious question......and this is a serious election.............what a miserable fuck he is.
Let's make it simple:
If the tax cuts promote growth and contribute to a sound economy, then the current economic situation shows the cuts aren't working, and should not be made permanent.
If the economy is tanking for some other reason, it shows the tax cuts do not adequately inoculate the economy, and they should not be made permanent.
The fed reserve is loaning moneyto US not the Chinese. Congress will never talk about it, You your mother brother and sisters will all be put in slave camps to repay the debt unless we declare bankrupty and end the racketeering that everyone knows is loan sharking.
It is impossible economically to cut taxes when you are trillions, not billions, but TRILLIONS in debt. The rich corporate puppets are sucking the treasury and taxpayer dry. China isn't going to finance this debt forever. If their economy tanks, then what? Most of the world has been living on credit since the "glory" years of Clintonism, where it didn't matter if you had collateral, here's a piece of paper. Well, paper is meaningless, and even electronic transactions need cash eventually. The world is set up perfectly for a global recession, and not one of the politicians running for Prez has any intention/idea of what to do about it. Not one.
Mike Donnelly @ 17:
Liars and thieves always stick together, but just some of the headlines out today on Bloomberg were. 1. Citi Bank has to take another 16 billion in write downs for Q4 of 2007 on top of the already 11 billion they have already written down last year and other banks are in the same boat.
2. The chief economist for Merrill says we're already in a recession and if things continue as they are, say we will be in a depression by 2009. Their even prediciting that Obama will win, but will only last one term because so many will be pissed with the economy. More bad news, KB Homes says there is no end in sight as to how bad the housing sector will get this year and we still won't see the worst in forclosures until the mid portion to end of this year.
The good news is it's been 60 degrees here in Chicago for the last 2 days, in the middle of January.... With thunderstorms and tornadoes across the midwest. That global warming though, what a crock of shit...
Don't worry be happy, just close your eyes and repeat after me: Believe in Obama and the message of change, and everything will be allright"! The American people are soon to be in a heap of trouble. This time the Dems did it to themselves, you cannot blame Republicans for the mess you will soon be getting yourselves into!
So Jethro down at the trailer park has maxed out both his credit cards and can't make his payments. He knows the answer to his problems is to get a higher credit line on both, and use one to pay off the other. Then he can go buy a bigger TV to watch Fox News!
Oh Please! Watching these talking heads going on how things aren't that bad is a joke. Since when have they ever lived the life the someone who is middle class? I saw Bush's speech yesterday and he delivered squat! Many homes in my area are selling for a song. Thanks George for the great economy!
Morning POP,
No, no one seems to want to talk about the steroid enhanced, meth-binge of a national debt Dumbass is leaving us with, how to pay it, or the fact that we have been borrowing from the Chinese and the Saudis just to make the interest payments on it, so now we owe them too.
The ass who said he'd run the gov. like a corporation has done just that. Unfortunately he chose the Enron model, inclu. all the scum at the top stealing everything they can for themselves and getting it safely hid overseas.
I think Dems are livng a fantasy they don't want disturbed, where a new Bill Clinton will sweep in and bring us back a surplus in 4 years - but this ain't 1992 anymore. This crew hasn't just left a breathtaking deficit, they've dismantled the system and even as we contemplate the future, they're stuffing their pockets with whatever is still left and covering their trails.
Back when the Cold War was on the news would always make a big deal out of fallen communist leaders being charged with "crimes against the people". What a wierd thing to charge someone with, I thought back then. Not anymore. We a have a criminal gang of murdering looters and plunderers and if that charge ever fit any group of American politicians, this group is it.
This week the Supreme's are deliberating about lethal injections. They should do it with their very own treasonous little murderer in mind.
This has gone beyond impeachment, maybe that's why Pelosi doesn't want to start down that trail. Maybe they know that if it all ever came out, civil criminal charges would have to filed and we would have to find out if we really are all subject to the same laws.
That ain't gona happen.
Can we survive another year of these people?
Hi rooth :)
Can't say that I disagree with you about any of what you said. I watched bush yesterday talking about the economy and he basically said nothing except keep taxes low. The son of a bitch should drive around most neighborhoods in the US. He would see houses that are to be auctioned off, houses for sale and houses just sitting empty as the grass grows up around them. I don't know what the hell he uses to forecast the state of the economy but the old toy eight ball doesn't cut it.
When times are good: Cut taxes (mostly on the rich) because we can afford it
When times are bad: Cut taxes (mostly on the rich) to "stimulate" the economy
Do the math. A 10% cut in taxes requires an 11% growth in the economy just to break even.
This of course assumes that all of the 11% growth will be taxable revenues.
mudshark @ 7:
No income, no taxes?
Financing more tax cuts and endless war by borrowing from China. Did Harvard give him that "vision" when it gave him an MBA?
John. A.........Time to start the countdown clock to the worst administration in US history. Only 378 days left for this crap to end. Hopefully we'll be able to hang on. Get the clock going!
Everyone please remember that the real tax burden on Americans has done NOTHING BUT INCREASE since Bush took office in 2000, because the Republicans have spent far, far more than any tax cuts could ever even potentially deliver.
It's not that the "tax cuts" help the economy argument is incorrect per se, but the Republicans are using it in a context where it makes absolutely no sense!
The Republicans have been bigger taxers than the Democrats since 2000 at LEAST, and anyone who says otherwise is an ignorant liar.
There's no tax cut at all if you have to borrow money to pay for it!
Shadowgm @ 19:
The tax cuts aren't really the problem.
The core of the problem is over production of money through borrowing and low interest rates, while manufacturing remains stagnant.
It is a losing proposition to invest in infrastructure and people, when the money supply grows a lot faster than production. The smart money reinvests in multiply layered levels of derivative debt instruments. This is why the economy consists of computers trading money back and forth.
The only real profits are in trying to catch money as the gov borrows and spends, or investing in bad debts, then letting the taxpayer bail you out with a hefty margin so you can buy another yacht made in a foreign country.
So increasing quantities of money are sloshing around in computers, but isn't making it to the people. There is no reason to invest in people. They can't turn profits fast enough to keep up with inflation.
And the undercurrent of all of this is a worldwide oil production plateau. Even though the population and money supply worldwide keeps growing, the quantity of energy to power production is fixed. So per capita, production is in decline.
So we have a rapidly increasing money supply chasing a declining quantity of goods and services.
P.D. @ 26:
In our area, a developer is giving away a free car with each new home sale. They say the market is good, that this is just a sales promotion.
I believe that King Bush the 1st had the best name for the current Republican economic plan.
Voodoo economics. It's like taking Mastercard to pay off Visa.
P.D. @ 26:
Remember the price of milk and gasoline in 2000?
The Bush-Con-Rove Economy is about in as good a shape as Nazi Germany was as the Americans and Russians were closing in on Berlin. Reminds me of the film Downfall (Der Untergang) where Hitler is spending his final days in complete denial that the war is lost and the shit is going to hit the fan no matter what he dreams up.
The U.S. dollar fell against 15 of 16 currencies last night.
When Bush took office, the U.S. dollar was worth CND$1.51. Two greenbacks bought you three loonies. Today, the currencies are at par, and your purchasing power has significantly weakened.
The price of oil is skyrocketing, not simply because of supply & demand, but mostly because of the collapse of the dollar.
It only makes sense that when you print more paper currency, it's like adding water to your whisky - it dilutes it - it means you're getting weak piss whisky - it means you get less bang for your buck.
All of these are forms of taxation. When the fed prints and circulates more paper currency, they are taking money out of your pocket and savings accounts.
That's a taxation.
Sadly, a "wacko" "fringe lunatic" "kook" Republican presidential candidate is the only person concerned about this sad stae of affairs.
Supply Side Economics was, is, and always will be a Hooverist failure
L.A. Confidential @ 39:
Bush convenes Plunge Protection Team
http://tinyurl.com/36h9ez
bmw 528 @ 37:
Voodoo Economics has been tried before, during the last great period of GOP dominance, the 1920's. Historian John D. Hicks wrote in Republican Ascendency 1921-1933 (1960) that
"As later events seemed to prove, money poured in at the top of the economic system tended to stay there, whereas money poured in at the bottom tended to rise through all levels of business and to strengthen the economy as a whole."
pissed off patricia @ 29:
"Well, it's hard for you, when you live here, to see all the good things that are happening, but Laura and I, we swing by every few weeks or so, and see progress."
-- George Bubble-U Bush
All of these are forms of taxation. When the fed prints and circulates more paper currency, they are taking money out of your pocket and savings accounts.
Exactly! The Republicans have done nothing but increase the price of living for Americans since they took office.
And don't think for a second they aren't making money of these anti-American policies!
The neocons are gangsters and crooks, nothing else.
sincerely, a pissed-off conservative.
L.A. Confidential @ 42:
That is scary.
And to the "Where's mine" question, I have a feeling most of us aren't getting a meaningful windfall out of this. It will probably be like Bush I when he pretended to give us $500 back in taxes, then asked for it back at tax time.
Weaseldog @ 46:
that would make sense, they'll probably just change the tax schedule so we'll be fooled into paying less through the year, only to have to make it up when we file.
Weaseldog @ 46:
The key to understanding what is happening.
"We face a version of Keynes's "extreme liquidity preference" in the 1930s - banks are hoarding money, and the main credit arteries of the financial system remain blocked after five months."
Shadowgm @ 44:
George, that's because you wear blinders and Laura wears those fashionable rose colored glasses.
Now when you boast about home ownership being the highest ever in the US you can also boast more people are losing those homes than ever before. The town where I live has given a contract to a local lawn service to mow the lawns of the many empty homes that are sitting here basically rotting away. I guess you could call that progress for the lawn service.
Miles Togo @ 32:
HMMMM! You should ask the guy who took those test for him.
Just announced that pending home sales have fallen another 2.6% and yet the Dow goes up 71 points. Talk about denial. To the Wall Street, it's still just the name of a river in Egypt.
Weaseldog @ 38:
myiq2xu @ 30:
It all comes back to what real GDP growth is in the economy. A real average annual growth rate of 2% versus 4% means the tax base doubles in 36 years instead of 18 years (using the rule of 72) - the major factor in determining how an economy absorbs a tax cut or a tax increase for that matter. Not all tax cuts are created equal. An increase in the tax break for educattion loans for example has a much more positive effect on GDP growth than say a business tax break for offshoring.
The reason tax breaks for the rich don't work well, is there's not much impetus or incentive to make sure the money goes into productive imputs. Tax policy is still completely intertwined with with class warfare. Someday we'll get closer to better tax policy that maximizes the economy. Democrats are much closer to getting this as it stands now.
L.A. Confidential @ 48:
Low interest, coupled with stagnant production must lead to this outcome. The banks have no incentive to make loans for investments, as they won't pay off.
Investors can't get a return on investments in people and infrastructure, that will outpace inflation. The banks make more money lending to each other.
When production is stagnant or in decline, the money supply must stop growing or shrink.
And that is impossible in a debt based monetary system. Our system is designed to boom and bust.
Weaseldog, How I yearn for those days. Peace(somewhat), low gas prices, low energy prices. Yet, when you hear the right-wingers they thought it was awlful! Another reason why anything Republican is not to be trusted.
unfrozencaveman @ 53:
If we're really at peak oil now, and it certainly looks that way from worldwide production profiles, then our economy is as good as it'll ever be, right now. It will never again be better.
Same/same. In 2000, Bush campaigned on a promise to cut taxes, because there was such a surplus in the budget/the economy was in such good shape. Before he actually took office, the surplus disappeared and he quickly responded, by saying we HAD to cut taxes, the economy was in dire straits and we needed it.
I've heard the definition of insanity was doing the same thing and expecting different results, but what do you call doing the same thing, for entirely different and mutually exclusive reasons?
silly phil @ 40:
If the next administration is able to clean up the business climate, the low dollar is going to be a very helpful tailwind. Investment would pour in and exports would continue to surge. On the other hand, the fierce competition for key commodities like oil will continue and its going to be a tough fight to keep prices under control. A fight I fear we may lose.
A Gift from the Banks to You
Federal Debt-Yearly Interest Payment
1960 $ 284,000,000,000 $ 9,000,000,000
1980 $ 930,000,000,000 $ 75,000,000,000
2000 $5,674,000,000,000 $362,000,000,000
2004 $7,379,000,000,000 $322,000,000,000
2005 $7,932,000,000,000 $352,000,000,000
2006 $8,507,000,000,000 $405,872,109,315
2007 $9,007,653,372,262 $429,977,998,108
L.A. Confidential @ 59:
2007
Federal Debt-Yearly
$9,007,653,372,262
Interest Payment
$429,977,998,108
Sany @ 24:
Nice try, Sany. Busholini and his "economic policies" are what have wreaked havoc. Not Bill Clinton. And what's this "mess you will soon be getting yourselves into!"?? Soon? WTF are you smoking?
Weaseldog @ 56:
Visions of the future are often gloomy because of incorrectly projecting a current reality into some distant future. Never underestimate a society's ability to overcome their present challenges.
Oh, now I get it. Preznit Cokehead is saying our economy is "strong, solid" at the same time economists are saying his economy is ass-raped... because Lil' Georgie has declared today "Opposite Day!" Silly little Boy George.
Dr. Acula @ 61:
I guess when you're neck deep in your own cesspool, you can still fear that someone will come along and push you under.
Hey, uh, Tranny? Your Boy George is the one who's fucking up the economy as we speak. Trying to say Democrats did this shows you are completely clueless, incompetent, or retarded. NO COUNTRY IN THE HISTORY OF THE PLANET HAS CUT TAXES WHILE AT WAR. ZERO. Your Boy George has NO IDEA WHAT THE FUCK HE'S DOING, and this job was WAY over his head.
Tax cuts are not a bad thing, no reason to give the federal government anymore money. The real problem is the spending and monetary policy. I seriously don't think any of you believe that the problems people in the middle class like us are facing are going to be fixed by RAISING taxes and the American people losing more of their income.
unfrozencaveman @ 62:
The Bush/GOP method is to make projections based on the rosiest economic scenarios when cutting taxes.
Shoaib Qadri @ 66:
Number 3, "The Pseudo-Sympathetic 'One-Of-You' Troll." Nice try, jackass. No, you raise taxes on the richest 1% of this country that has been given tax cuts for for almost seven years now while the rest of the economy crumbles. THINK, MCFLY. WE'RE NOT STUPID.
unfrozencaveman @ 62:
The argument that we can keep increasing consumption of resources forever, is actually projecting the current reality into the future.
Arguing that on a finite planet you can't can't consume infinite resources is bucking the trend.
So you have it backwards.
If you accept that the volume of oil in the Earth doesn't exceed infinity, that it is finite, then you must accept the theory of Peak Oil, which argues that if you keep pumping more and more oil every year, eventually, the curve must reverse and as it runs out, you'll pump less every year.
So if you accept that the mass of oil in the Earth is finite and doesn't come from an alternate space time continuum where it exceeds the mass of our universe, then you believe in Peak Oil.
If Peak Oil is true and oil is not infinite, then we're left arguing about the timing.
The timing appears to be now. Every nation in the world is having production problems and oil discoveries have been in constant decline since the late 1960s.
This is something though, that can be denied forever. Anything that makes us uncomfortable can be ignored or rerationalized.
unfrozencaveman @ 53:
When part of those tax breaks go to expanding markets overseas or tax sheltered corporate shell companies in places like Bermuda, the American Economy loses any benefit that may have been promised by the BushCo LLC.
The Bush and GOP method has been to THROW ALL THE TAXPAYER MONEY IN THE GARBAGE. Doesn't matter if they didn't cut taxes they would throw the money away into stupid projects like Iraq/Afghanistan/Pakistan/Israel/Saudia Arabia.
Bush The Cokehead Yankee @ 68:
Lol what the hell are you talking about? Psuedo-Sympathetic troll?
I personally want lower taxes for EVERYONE. Poor/middle class/Rich, whoever. Because our government doesn't know how to spend money. Raising taxes won't do a thing if congress spends it the same way genius.
Shoaib Qadri @ 72:
Oh, it's CONGRESS' fault. Gee, I'm so silly. See, I thought it was Cokehead Bush who was stomping around like a pissy little 7-year-old girl every time Congress sent him something he didn't like. What are you, straight out of "1984?" Bush is the little bitch who told Congress exactly who should get what money, and that'd he'd veto anything else. Gee, sounds like "The Decider" is deciding how the money is spent. Jesus, are you a paid troll?
Nixon drives up the Federal Debt........Carter raises taxes to bring down the debt.
Reagan/Bush drive up the Federal Debt...........Clinton raises taxes to bring down the debt.
Bush drives up the Federal Debt...............You see a patern developing?
Bush The Cokehead Yankee @ 73:
Of course its Congress's fault because they make the bills to CONTINUE spending billions of dollars overseas. Why the hell did they give him more money for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? Bush AND Congress are both at fault for our situation today. Grow up
Radically Moderate @ 74:
pattern
Good news, Fox News Style:
http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/article/solid-opening-wall-street_427...
Recovery: Coming back 0.7% after DROPPING 12%.
What a recovery!
Weaseldog @ 69:
There is no shortage of energy on earth or in the universe. Just becuase it's impossible to harnass much of that energy today does not mean it will be impossible tomorrow. Technological breakthroughs often come unexpectedly. The resources of the earth are indeed finite, but matter is neither created nor destroyed, only altered. Resources that are considered junk today will one day have productive purposes.
Shoaib Qadri @ 71:
If Bush and the GOP had taxed to pay for their wasteful spending they would have been voted out office in 2004. Taxes are what keeps government accountable to the people. Because Bush continued his tax cuts, he was able to get re-elected and continue using his government credit card.
Shadowgm @ 19:
------------------
The law of cycles. The business cycle has not been repealed, nor will it be.
If tax cuts promote a sound economy, further tax cuts should be made in order promote to return to a sound economy.
The economy is not sound due to a record credit bubble that had been building since the mid 1990's, resulting in a stock, then housing bubble.
As in the 1930's, that bubble must burst and deflate.
Markus @ 79:
borrow,borrow,borrow..........spend,spend,spend.
Shadowgm @ 19:
Dang, that's what I wanted to say.
Markus @ 79:
The problem, however, remains the wasteful spending. That needs to be #1 priority in being stopped.
Radically Moderate @ 76:
-------------------
It is called a cycle. Inflation and deflation create a cycle. Burst housing bubbles are deflationary.
Actually there is a way that tax cuts can boost the economy...give them to the middle class. Rich people spend a much smaller percentage of their income in the marketplace than the middle class. An extra few hundred or few thousand per middle class taxpayer would make the economy hum.
Tax breaks don't work for the poor either as they don't pay much in taxes to begin with but a kickback to them has the biggest positive effect on the economy since they spend 100% of their income in the marketplace.
Just my opinion but I'm stickin' with it.
unfrozencaveman @ 78:
Ok, the crisis is now. It is today, this very moment. Give me a date to pin on my calendar. How about March 17th, 2008?
So what if in some far distant future, our problems of today will be solved? What good is that? So what if the current energy crisis is solved a million years from now?
Is the faith that after we're dead, that someone will find a solution a good reason to do nothing now?
I've heard folks all my life talk about what they'd do if the won the lottery. And chances are good that if they bought a ticket every time, then over a million years they'd win.
And humanity already won the lottery. We lucked into a huge bonanza of oil and we've squandered it.
You left out a point about resources being altered. They are altered in the service of entropy. That is an important point. Every alteration consumes energy. That energy cannot be infinitely reused. That notion is perpetual motion.
Our economy must consume more energy every year or go bust. We're flat lining now. The problem is here and now. What is your immediate solution right now?
pissed off patricia @ 14:
Sorry to have to give you the bad news, but the national debt will NEVER be paid off. There is now more monetized debt than there is actually currency in the world, so if the United States ever actually paid the debt off, there would be no more dollars in circulation.
Look up the phrase, "Fractional Reserve Banking", and open your eyes.
The recent sub-prime bailout did nothing more than over-inflate the currency.
In a perfect world, not ruled by greed, when the Fed increases the amount of money in circulation, or "loosens" the money supply, the government is supposed to provide tax cuts to the "demand- side". This is because, during an inflationary period, the corporations and the banks see the benefits of the added money FIRST, BEFORE inflation catches up. The "demand-side" will see the money LAST, in the form of loans, AFTER the inflation kicks in. The last President to try and do this correctly was President Kennedy in 1963, when he got the Congress to give tax breaks to the poor.
Conversely, during a DEFLATIONARY period, where the Fed is trying to contract, or "tighten" the money supply, tax breaks for the "supply-side" are in order, because during a deflationary period, wages go up, but the price of goods go DOWN.
What we have gotten instead, is a situation where the Central bank has taken steps to loosen the money supply, while the government has ALSO given tax cuts to the SUPPLY-SIDE!?!?
The situation is now getting out of control. Because of the massive increase in currency, the dollar has lost 50% of it's buying power in the past FIVE YEARS!
At the rate we're going, in another fity years, we'll be buying a loaf of bread for a thousand dollars! But it's ok, because your average wage will probably be $10,000 an HOUR!
Fiat currency is dangerous because inevitably the people in charge can't resist the urge to over-inflate the money supply. While the money is inflating, times SEEM to be good. But it is only staving off the inevitably "bust" that MUST occur in fiat money systems.
Ron Paul wants to peg our dollar to something of intrinsic value, so that politicians don't have the power to devalue our currency. Sure, he TALKS about the gold standard, but he has said that he only uses gold as an example. Any metallic-based currency will retain more value than mere paper currency.
Think about it.
Ron Paul 2008.
GMFORD @ 82:
But it is illogical. If the tax cuts promoted a sound economy, repealing them will harm the economy.
Sany @ 24:
Wow, a Democrat hasn't yet been elected and youse guys are already blaming the current cluster fuck --that your guy left us BTW-- on the incoming administration?
I thought you guys were the party of "personal responsibility" and "compassion." Yet at the slightest chance you guys always manage to squeeze the blame for your fuck ups on everyone but your own damn asses, and you guys seem to not give up until you have fucked things up pretty bad for the rest of us.
I guess in terms of "personal responsibility" and "compassion" youse were all full of manure, eh?
Jesus tap dancing christ on a pogo stick, I mean Bush still has 1 year to go, and the GOPbots are already blaming the incumbent administration. It has to be a new record low... just whenever I think you guys can sink any deeper. There go the likes of you proving me wrong, and making sure that yes indeed you guys can sink much lower.
Fuck the lot of you...
unfrozencaveman @ 78:
Can't have it both ways ... either there's no shortage, or we have finite resources.
Even the stars are going to grow cold and die, as they consume the lighter elements in their makeup. When they reach iron, they can no longer sustain the reactions in the same manner.
Believing in some fantasy last-minute technological breakthrough that will save our collective arses isn't exactly sound policy, nor does it disprove the concept of peak oil.
Certain resources are considered junk because fuel must be consumed for work to be possible - that's true of engines that run on gasoline/oil, furnaces that burn coal, and even humans, as we consume food to sustain our level of activity. What you seem to be arguing is that there's magic junk - we can run cars off biodiesel, or furnaces off some other combustible, or consume energy drinks and food-replacement crap like Ensure.
Our energy infrastructure is based on profit. A technological breakthrough is going to have to bust that model to have a chance.
GMFORD @ 85:
James @ 87:
Nobel Prize Winning Chemist, Frederick Soddy, suggested that tying the money supply to energy production would keep the money supply stable in relation to production.
That may have worked once, but now the US is an energy importer. Our money would just drain away.
Tying to gold will likely have a similar effect.
Our problem is that we import more than we export. so long as we do this, we must inflate to keep dollars circulating in the US.
Ron.j @ 84:
I agree, my point was that the Repugs constantly harp on Dems for raising taxes, however if the Repugs were better stewards of Government the Dems would not have to raise taxes.
Radically Moderate @ 93:
Yeah it sounds like a kid complaining that he has to clean his room when mom's in the house, but Dad just get's drunk and let's him trash the whole house.
Ron.j @ 88:
Then where's the sound economy?
James @ 87:
1928 called and they want to tell you how gold standards do squat with respect to speculation and inflation. Please, enough with the bullshit libertarian gold backed currency crap.
At least be consistent, if the debt is too large for the monetary supply to be used to pay it. How on earth are you going to back that monetary supply when there is not enough precious metals in this solar system to back up the current volume of dollars that this economy is worth.
Just a quick note; when taking advice, make sure you take it from some one who knows what the hell he or she is talking about. And Ron Paul is most definitively taking waaay too many cues from the Austrian school of whackos-r-us.
To ease the job shortage Prez Bush has ordered all fueling staions to rehire laid off pump attendents This will provide 100,000 jobs country wide but will put fuel prices over the 4.50 mark. A trade off thats seems resonable as long as everybody walks to work from now on.
Two things to repeat over and over:
1. While Democrats may like to "tax and spend," Republicans love to borrow and spend.
2. Repeating the same behavior over and over and expecting a different outcome is what defines neurosis. Economy soaring? Cut taxes, sayeth the GOP. Economy faltering? Cut taxes, sayeth the GOP. I'll say this: They sure know how to stay on message. Which is another way of saying: They're frakking bull-headed and unreasoning.
They are also one-trick ponies. It's time to stop being taken in by their trickery, and to put the ponies out to pasture.
I gotta better idea! Lets make bushs prison stay permanent.
signd, nobody
The Dude @ 96:
The only short term fix is a crash and burn. There really is no long term fix. when Bush came into office, there are enough dollars to buy 8 planet Earths. Now there is probably enough to buy 16 planet Earths.
If they were all circulating, gasoline would probably be over $100/gallon, while wages stagnate.
Wages go up with inflation when production rises. When you have inflation and dropping production, wages stagnate and unemployment rises.
Necadawg Says @ 97:
Put a sarcasm note on these will'ya?!
With Bush in office, there's no way to tell what is a sick joke and what is reality.
Money as Debt
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5626660107307878596
These tax-cutters fail to mention who will pay for all of this stuff, like $billions for the war.
Isn't it ironic that all of these tax-cutters rack up record deficit budgets
Since 1975 there were 9 record deficit budgets (75, 82, 83, 84, 85, 90, 91, 03 and 04), the 4 highest belong to Bush I (2) and Bush II (2), Ford owns 1 and Reagan owns the rest.
Currently we have Huckabee claiming to have reduced taxes when in fact, as Factcheck.org points out "More to the point, we're weary of pointing out that Huckabee's tenure as governor actually resulted in a $505.1 million net increase in taxes." [read]
Giuliani claims to have lowered taxes, whereas what he really did was lower taxes but increase other revenues [read]
Not one of these clowns has any idea who will reduce the national debt, and how to bring up the value of the dollar which has lost about 50% of it's value
ronhohn @ 103:
And its ridiculous that so far out of all the presidental candidates only ONE(Ron Paul) is even talking about it. This should be a priority issue.
Every single analyst out there is predicting a recession, even the happy-go-lucky-sunshine-permabulls are admitting it. The only disagreement is how long it will last (the permabulls say only several months, for example). You're right: everybody is a lot of nobodies.
Shadowgm @ 90:
This does sum up the Republican paradigm doesn't it?
"Party now, our grandkids will clean up the mess."
There's never a good reason to act rationally because some savior in the far distant future is going clean our planet, refill the oil reservoirs and wipe our bottoms with disposable wipes.
The borrow and waste mentality, seems so childlike, and yet it is the model for our entire civilization.
The Dude @ 96:
Totally dude. The status quo works perfectly. Best solution ever is to print more money and start more wars. That's a sane and serious policy. OTOH that Ron Paul is a nutty fruitcake. Hell, he even thinks your privacy and rights are worth protecting, too. Total whackjob.
Weaseldog @ 86:
I believe in Peak oil - we're extracting about as much petroleum as we ever will - but we will plateau for several decades probably. In an enviroment of rising demand, prices will continue to trend higher, but we wont see $200 oil tomorrow. There's still plenty of time to change course. Eventually governments will get involved in bankrolling energy alternatives - its either that or start wars.
Just look at nuclear energy that went from unknown to viability in a very short time. True nuclear energy has major shortcomings, but there is still tremendous potential to harness energy at the quantum level, and yes for all intense and purposes it is limitless.
Radically Moderate @ 74:
Ding Ding Ding. We have a winner.
He did it bigger and fatter and is going to throw in some wars as well (paying Sunni mitilia now to freeze the war until Dems get in). Oh and he is going to run with Billions instread of millions.
"But mister president, you've been in office for over 7 years now and most of that time with a rubberstamp Republican congress. The American people are not stupid enough to believe that this latest bad news on the economy is Bill Clinton and the Democrats fault.....but then again, they did give you a second term so let's try it and see what happens"
unfrozencaveman @ 108:
It's easier to fight wars. We've been doing it for most of human history.
I'd like nothing more than to see the U.S. develop the Next Big Thing in energy, stamp 'Made in USA' all over it, and market it globally to undercut the oil shieks. But I also realize this is not something that's going to happen for years, if at all.
Nuclear energy is hardly what I'd call 'viable' - it's fission, as opposed to fusion, and I don't know that stockpiling nuclear waste is a sensible alternative to filling our skies with particulate matter and greenhouse gases.
I have no idea what you're talking about with 'quantum energy' - matter/antimatter? Where's the framework to create and deliver it? How will it be applied at the consumer level, and how will the cost of development affect the cost to the customer?
"Effectively limitless" is a buzzphrase, and I'm automatically skeptical. See Weaseldog's note about entropy - the universe is going to go dark and cold.
this morning i heard laura ingraham honestly say that this election is about finding someone to lead us out of this economic mess
i would like to congratulate her on being the first wingnut to acknowledge that the economy sux
but shit...its repug policies and this fucking occupation that have got us where we are at
elect another repug and watch the depression to come
unfrozencaveman @ 108:
I really doubt that we'll flat line for decades. I doubt the plateau will make it to 2010. But that's my opinion based on guesstimates from imperfect information. We won't really know until we see it in the rear view mirror.
Nuclear energy isn't viable. It is only working now, because the defense industry subsidizes the fuel production. As oil prices rise, so will the price of nuclear energy. The world only has 40 years of uranium left. There isn't enough being produced now because of tight supplies of natural gas and thus sulfuric acid to process the ore. India is even now forced to ration their fuel. Soon other nations will have to use less fuel.
As to thorium, it will face the same fuel processing bottlenecks. I'm not aware that anyone has actually built a commercial reactor for it, so there will be learning curve and long lead time if these go anywhere.
As to quantum level energy, I'm aware of many of the ideas on that. But they all need some sort of magic 'what if' technology that gets around the energy bump. Richard Feynman published a paper that disproves these magical theories, and his paper still stands, all these decades later.
Finally, the US is becoming anti-science. The Republicans killed the superconducting super collider. Now they are killing evolution education. We're entering a new dark age. If an exotic energy source is discovered and harnessed, it won't be the US that pioneers it.
In declining civilizations one of the hallmarks is lowering education, and reversion to a belief in magic over reason. This appears to be happening worldwide. The great scientific breakthroughs occurred when energy was cheap and civilization on the rise.
Bu$h wouldn't know reality if it jumped up and bit him on the ass. Time for that straight jacket and a lovely padded room.
Gene Simmons for President and Donald Trump for Vice President!
WAKE UP! The United States is in a depression.
What else do you call; record unemployment, record home foreclosures, gas tripling in price, housing doubling in price, and the u.s. dollar worth less than the Canadian loonie?
It sure took some people a long time to realize chimpinomics doesn't work.
The really dumb ones are still in denial.
Let's see, Reagain 81-89, Bush 89-93, Clinton 93-2001, Bush 01-09. Republicans=20 years, Dems, 8. Now if the Republicans REALLY believed in tax cuts, why am I paying more taxes today than ever before? That includes local and state in which the Republicans have had control for about the same times too. Whenever I hear a Republican bitch about tax cuts, I ask "sounds good to me, so where the hell are they anyway?" If anyone out there STILL BELIEVES that Republicans are for lower taxes, spending and smaller government, I have some oceanfront property for sale in Arizona. I sounds real good, but the TRUTH will enslave you.
uncle joe mccarthy @ 112:
Fair enuff, but knowing Laura, she'll probably say Clinton was the guy that initiated the downturn, that 9/11 crippled the economy, that the Dem congress has only made matters worse, and that we need a fiscal conservative Republican president to correct the course and undo the damage of the Democrat-Al Qaeda nexus.
This stuff writes itself.
The really dumb ones are still in denial.
You have to be really, really, really dumb to think that borrowing more money to make the interest payments on your debts is going to work.
Espescially at a NATIONAL LEVEL.
prunes @ 119:
People who use their MasterCard to borrow money to pay off the debt and interest on their Visa card, and vice-versa, repeat cycle, ad nauseum, soon discover collection agencies banging on the door and bankruptcy to follow.
If adults with Grade 10 educations are expected to know this, why can't the government???
In the past it may have been easier to start a war But this clown's war is burning that precious juice at the rate of 3.3 million gallons a day X over 1500+ days. Not going to get any easier in the future.
No to making the tax-cuts permanent.
*
Just some facts and articles...
According to the renewable resource data center, every day the earth receives more solar energy than the entire earth's 6 billion inhabitants would consume in 27 years.
With that in mind, here is some nice bedtime reading about "peak oil"
http://tinyurl.com/adve5
Map of land area required to replace total primary energy supply with electricity from solar cells (the black dots)
http://tinyurl.com/27zevr
Large Solar Array Project
http://tinyurl.com/2d2qvp
U.S. Energy usage by sector
http://tinyurl.com/2y4u2s
Israeli Energy Tower design
http://tinyurl.com/2ofwu6
THE company to watch - Palo Alto's NanoSolar
Video:
http://tinyurl.com/2g8ma9
Article:
http://tinyurl.com/2v2ptc
Google produces 30% of its electricity requirements from solar.
Watch Google's solar energy production in real time:
http://tinyurl.com/ywx7bn
GM's Volt electric car
http://tinyurl.com/yqgb58
Magenn Wind Power - 10KW electricity for about a 10K investment
http://tinyurl.com/2x45ow
Comparison of candidates on climate and energy issues :
http://tinyurl.com/yt7vsl
tjb @ 121:
I know I repeated it already but I think its really important to note that its not just the Iraq/Afghanistan wars that are a huge waste of money, but nearly every single other piece of foreign spending. Why give Pakistan, Saudia Arabia, Israel, and others BILLIONS of dollars? Why continue to throw money away in more and more US bases in nearly half of the damn countries in the world. Its nonsensical and has been going on for a long time whether it was democrat or republican presidents in charge.
I had hoped this new democratic congress would bring some change but their failure at trying to control Bush and the democratic presidental candidate frontrunners refusal to commit to immediate withdrawal from Iraq makes me wonder how different the two parties really are.
Moonglum @ 123:
Thanks. I've been all over this topic since 1998.
Here's a good one.
http://www.dieoff.com/
Cool, since the crisis is kicking in now, let's switch over to solar on Saturday. Is that good for you?
I love all the great solutions that are going to come in the unspecified future. I wonder if I'll live to see them?
There's a dirty joke about potential and reality. Dad is explaining to his son...
The son asks his mom if she'd sleep with Sean Connery for a dollar. She says she won't, because she loves his father. He asks if she'd sleep with him for a million dollars and she says yes.
He asks his sister the same questions with Brad Pitt. He get's similar answers.
Dad asks him what he learned. The says I learned that potentially, we're sitting on a two million dollar investment. But in actuality Mom and Sis are....
These future imaginings are great. they have potiential if at some unspecified date they are scaled up and have a good EROEI. But the problem is hurting us now. We need to go back in time and implement them. So our potential is good. Our reality grows worse every day.
Then once these solutions are put in place, they have to support a world population that will grow to infinity. so they have to be scalable to infinity. The planet has to be scalable to infinity. If you can't do this, you're only postponing the problem.
If you look at population growth alongside energy growth, you'll see that populations boom when energy does. This is no accident. With cheap abundant energy, comes cheap abundant food and medical services. So if you create an energy boom, a population boom will occur with it, until the system is stretched to the limit again.
since last Friday (3 bushiness days) the market correction/recession has wiped out all the earnings profits from the whole of the year of 2007!!!
Bush speaks, markets tank.
Heckuvajob duhbya, now STFU!
fear it!!!
Bush says he's watching economy closely
Contra Costa Times, CA - 14 minutes ago
WASHINGTON—President Bush said Tuesday that he is watching very carefully to see if the struggling US economy needs a short-term boost from the federal ...
http://origin.contracostatimes.com/nationandworld/ci_7913110
uh-oh bushies...time to flee the sinking ship...like rats off the Titanic.
White House being ordered to Provide info on the millions of missing emails.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/01/08/white-house-being-forced-to-pro...
Trittydi @ 122:
Tax Cuts? Tax cuts? Are they going to cut the taxes on my cigarettes and alcohol? If this keeps up I'm gonna need LOTS of cigarettes and alcohol.
#127
Every time I read or hear 'Bush said ....' I shudder and think "What the hell does he know about anything?"
Everything he has ever touched turned to crap.
Shadowgm @ 95:
----------------
Simple. All cycles end. The Clinton era boom was ending, the last year he was in office. The stock bubble had burst in March 2000 and the economy went into recession in 2001.
The economy went into recession after the FED raised interest rates to 6.5%. The economy is going into recession now, after the FED has raised rates to 5.25%.
There has been a credit bubble building since 1995. The same kind of credit bubble that built in the 1920's. Despite the 100 dollar oil, we are looking at deflation from defaulting credit. Today there was a rumor that Countrywide was going to file for bankruptcy.
The stock dumped.
Raising taxes or cutting taxes, all economic cycles come to an end. The Clinton era boom could no more continue on than the current economic expansion.
All booms end in a bust. THE bust was staved off by Greenspan's creation of a housing bubble. That bubble has now burst and likely with it, the credit bubble.
FreedomOfInformationAct @ 126:
------------------
Won't do you any good. The market is going down due to the 5.25% FED interest rate, which burst the housing bubble. In 2000, when Clinton spoke after mid March, the market was tanking.
The FED was raising the rate to 6.5%.
The following Web page is taken from Obama’s Church... I didn’t see anything there for white people or other races of people. Strictly for blacks only.. Will Obama be for blacks only. Check out his church’s web site at tucc.org you will be greeted with African Drums. You must check it out yourself at tucc.org.
THE CENTER FOR AFRICAN BIBLICAL STUDIES
THE MISSION
1. In obedience to our Lord’s command, “Go ye therefore and teach all nations…” God’s under-shepherd and our senior pastor, the Rev. Dr. Jeremiah a. Wright, Jr., proclaimed a TEN-POINT VISION for this family of God. At the center of this God inspired vision is the revelation (and responsibility) for leading this congregation, and “whosoever will” to become grounded in God’s Word…to be a BIBLE-BASED CHURCH! To this end, Pastor Wright teaches and trains others to be facilitators of this mission.
THE MINISTRY
The Center for African Biblical Studies is AFRICAN-CENTERED...
seeking to implement and promote Bible Study from an African perspective.
WHY AFRICAN?
Because…“We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian...our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and we remain “true to our native land”, the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation; and we constantly affirm our trust in God through the cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black community.”
Let's just paraphrase Obama's church and render their actual statements using the word WHITE where they use the word BLACK, and Europe, or European, for Africa, or African, and see if it sounds just a tad - well- exclusionary. ( How's that for PC wordsmithing?)
1. "Our congregation is Unashamedly White and Unapologetically Christian. Our roots are in the white religious experience. We are European people, and remain true to our native land, the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. We affirm God through a white worship service and ministries which address the white community. Among other things, we are committed to a non negotiable commitment to Europe and historical education of European people. Click here to read talking points for the church and the White Value System."
Yeah , that sounds really great- if you're Robert Byrd or David Duke. Obama has played the race card to get elected from a black district, and that makes him unfit to be president. That is also why I hope he gets the Dem nomination. He is LESS unfit than Hillary, and she has a better chance of getting elected if she got the nomination. Ergo, she is a more dangerous Dem.
The Dems can spin like a windmill, but Obama is either a bigot- or plays one on Sunday. You can't have it both ways Obama--you can't play the race card to get elected from your District and then run from it in a national election. The part that pisses me off is that the media give him a pass because of the double standard in this country when it comes to racism. If a white candidate belonged to an exclusionary church like this, his campaign would never get off the ground.
I hope you will pass this on the liberal media will not touch this with a 10 foot pole!
jimmy @ 133:
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