January 17, 2008 01:15 PM
Bush didn't push his permanent tax cuts too hard...
So, how did you spend that 300.00 rebate check you got from long ago? I doubt individuals will give it back to the economy. The reason---Bills, bills, bills.... Anyway, all you economists please comment on the Bush economy speech...
Kevin Drum picks up on the tax cut point and says:
Bernanke is saying, as clearly as he can, that a temporary economic downturn shouldn't be used as a cynical excuse to pass new long-term tax cuts or to make existing tax cuts permanent. Not only would that have no effect on the economy right now, but it would likely make future economic problems even more intractable.
12 figures added to the national debt to help the economy that was destroyed from lack of regulation of the lending industry
These con-twits are too stupid to realize that their tax cuts for corporations/rich are what got us here in the first place...their solution? Do it again!
They are talking a 145 Billion dollar "economic stimulus" package. That would result in around $500 going to the average Joe. If it is temporary, it would mean that on next years tax forms, you would have to claim it, at which time they'll get it back. It also means that these guys have thrown their hands up in the air and basically said "Look, we lowered Corporate taxes immensely and gave the upper 1% big tax breaks as well, and you just have to be patient and watch these trickle down economics at work". Afterwards, they broke out in uncontrollable laughter, and all went down to the local $1000/plate diner, and had a burger and beer.
My $300 dollar rebate went right back to the local PUBLIC school district for a brand new bus and school fee. Hmmm.
Tax cuts? You mean the $ billions they printed to hand out, raising inflation?
The real way to put money in my pocket is to make my dollar go further. Tax cuts just deflated my money.
Ummm, I'm no economist, but isn't paying your bills putting money back into the economy?
By the way, for some reason, my wife and I never got our 300$. We got about 400$ between the two of us. Both of us work and pay taxes - and we're over the poverty line. Did anyone on here actually get 300$? If everyone here did, we got screwed and I can handle that. But if no one actually got the 300$, it's time to stop repeating that lie too. (We can put it next to "the surge is working" and "Bush won in 2000 and 2004".)
What Bernanke isn't saying, but he should, is that a regressive tax structure is bad for the economy. So, tax cuts for the wealthy (a la Bush 2001) allow the wealthy to consolidate wealth but do not encourage growth in the economy.
What about increasing the funding for the GI bill?
I never received the $300 myself and at the time was quite pissed as I was under the poverty level.Anyone care to venture a guess as to who this new rebate is going to go to?
My rebate check went straight to paying bills (and I had to resist wiping my ass with it and sending it back).
Bush is treating the economy the same way he's treating the war in Iraq. He's absolutely DESPERATE to put off the day of reckoning until he's out of office.
it's funny watching the american economy implode. just wait until you wake up to the hyperinflation that's coming from a devalued dollar and all time historically high commodity prices.
it won't matter diddly squat what Bush proposes then.
submit your criminals to justice....before it's too late.
I bought a dog. The only good thing GWB ever did for me.
Is the cost of Iraq still 275 million per day?
Yes it is.
That money goes right to the military-industrial profiteers.
"Tax cuts" = "distraction"
We are on the financial ship named the Titanic, and George W. Bush and company jumped into their fortunate lifeboats first. It's a pity that there aren't enough lifeboats for everybody, so to everybody else: Enjoy your swim...and try to stay afloat.
Bernakie said that taking the country further into crippling debt might be bad? In the words of Gunnery Sgt. Hartman, "Well... No shit."
When the lock box was busted open and we had a big party at the expense of future generations, I was a destitute college student. I got $26, which I spent on oatmeal and cans of tuna.
As I asked in a previous thread... The government has the will and the means to borrow infinite quantities of money and spend it.
Why does the government need to tax us at all?
What do our taxes amount to? A raindrop in an ocean?
I wonder how much they spent on the letter they sent me to tell me that I was not going to receive my $300 tax rebate. The government used my money to tell me that I was f*cked. Talk about insult to injury. $300....hmmmmm... that might be enough to play with my self for a few hours, other than that, its pointless. Instead of sending Americans $300 each, let's try... I dunno... getting some of those homeless vets that dont exsit (snark) off of the streets.
Bush=terrosist
If I remember, the rebate was merely an early tax refund -- the one you usually get after you file on April 15th at 11:55 p.m. There were tax cuts, and so most people had "overpayed" and got the money early. It was based on the size of your tax cut and the number of dependents.
Bushed! @ 16:
Yeah, it was essentially what Bush I did. He gave us a check, then asked for it back at tax time.
I think the repubs pushed bush to shut the hell up about tax cuts right now because if he raised hell about it, it would look bad on the party. If he got into a pissing match right now with the house and senate, it would look like he was wasting time while the economy continues to bleed. He'll be back with his bs once this immediate emergency has cooled a it.
I have a suggestion of something to do with this new "windfall" of money. If you can afford to, give some of it to your favorite candidates campaign.
Bush is basically taking money out of our future that will have to eventually be paid back by us. Wouldn't it be easier for him to write a big check to wal mart, then wal mart could report higher profits than expected and the economy would chug along? Bernanke said yesterday he hopes people don't spend this money to pay against their credit card debt. He wants them to purchase something.
The Chairman of the Fed usually spends half his time being a shill for big business, so I was surprised yesterday when Bernnke testified that when it comes to stimulating the economy "you get the biggest bang for your buck by putting the money in the hands of the middle and lower income earners." and not parroting the stupid 'trickle down' voodoo economics that the plutocrats are always advocating.
But anybody who knows his head from a hole in the ground knows that if you want to stimulate the economy, you give money back to the middle and lower income earners because THEY SPEND IT LOCALLY! Giving billions of dollars back to the top 1% income earners does NOTHING for the American economy, because THEY INVEST IT IN EMERGING MARKETS, and NOT in Americs. Yes, Junior, by all means lets keep the tax cuts for the middle and lower income earners, or even increase them, but we're not giving any more SOCIALISM FOR THE RICH to your country club buddies!
Bush has SPENT like a crank hoe in a crack house
now he wants us to SPENDIT ALL on his crappy check
where the fucken jobs.......................
pissed off patricia @ 18:
They want him to shut up about giving something for the people. In the meantime, Nancy Pelosi is helping the Republicans draft a corporate giveaway bill that includes a 25% cut in corporate taxes.
How is the new oil subsidy bill coming? I heard at the beginning of the month that they packed it with lots of money for Exxon and other oil corporations. I'm thinking the deal went through, as they said on the news that gasoline prices are coming down.
They need to come down a lot to cover the 50 cent gasoline tax that is being levied to cover the oil subsidy.
If we have to pay taxes on this money, can we just send the check back and tell them we don't want it? Just curious.
Yea, government subsidized weed.
pissed off patricia @ 22:
That might be considered "un-american".
(I hope the coffee hasn't run out and we can all sense the "snark" that I left out.)
Bush has DESTOYED the EOCNOMY
fact
crank hoe economics
spend spend spend
pissed off patricia @ 22:
Yeah you can. Sign the back, and send it to me. I'll email you my address.
Regardless of what Bernake says, Bush and Cheney aren't listening.
I did not cash the check because I did not agree with the fool then .... so my conscious is clear.
mcrown @ 24:
So if we don't take the check, we don't support the troops and the terrorist win?
Oh my!
My $300 went straight into my magical $300 property tax increase. Unfortunately, every year since, the property tax is still up, but no more $300 dollar checks.
If you listened closely to Forrest Chimps plan and Schumers presser they said it's specifically geared towards "middle class americans"...My take on Schumer is he's as much of a snake as the lot of them,,,
First...just who the foulke are these "middle people that are to being given free money dropped out of helicopters"....
Second..."what income ranges constitute middle income households ? 30 k 50k 100 k 250k "
Third...What about those who are borderline poverty or already in poverty that pay little or no taxes...what about retiree's ? We are just gonna let those most in need take the pipe ?
Fourth...with taxes due April 15th...how the hell are they gonna implement something retroactive for 2007 ? Current Tax Software already sold would be useless. Thus no one will file on time.
Fifth..given the way congress works and repugs obstruct, I give the passage of this a snow balls chance in hell of getting through in time for 07.
Sixth..wtf good is $ 800 dollars and is that going to be considered taxable income in 2008 ? Also, since chimpys last freebate, the dollar has fallen 30 % effectively making this air drop more like $ 560. Thats about 3 months of gas money "pre tax"
the $300 tax rebate check was hush money.
Weaseldog @ 26:
But you have to promise wal mart won't see a cent of it. :)
Give it to the baby jesus and tell him I sent ya. Maybe he'll finally stop crying.
Dain Brammaged @ 30:
Ours went up $ 1500 dollars or 35 % based on housing bubble assessments from the 2006 peak.
The sad fact is that the country we know as America is rapidly turning into nothig more than a hollow shell sitting on a toxic waste dump no matter how much spin comes out of Washington. We sit on an aging infrastrucure of rusted out antiques we used to call our factories. Our dollar has fallen to such extremes, that even now, western european countries are showing interest in building factories here because it would be more profitable for them to do so, but that will take years. Government and it's dizzying number of lobbyists on behalf of every industry section from cars to oil have held back innovation that could have created millions of new jobs in areas of alterative energy because it would have hurt their bottom lines for their share holders and now we a brought to the point of financial ruin, because we have elected leaders who would rather leave the problems we have for the next generation. The problem with that concept is that politicians have been doing this for many generations.
This all comes down to the definition of insanity. We as a people keep electing these same self centered morons who sold their souls to the highest bidder year after year and we always think or at least are told, it will be better this time, and this time never happens. Will we ever learn? At the rate things are going, I doubt there will be anyone left to care unless we decide as one people ( to steal a line from a great movie ) we're mad as hell, and we're not going to take it anymore. What we need is real leadership and real solutions to the problems we face and all I have seen so far is nothing but a lot of psycho babble from each candidate from each party. Yeah, they all have a plan. You know what? Let us in on it because the water level just started to reach the lido deck and the ship is just about ready to go under.
What we have to do NOW, is to let those elected to office know that the time is long past that you start doing the peoples business rather than that of the highest bidder. Spring is coming and when it gets a bit warmer, there should be a march on Washington the likes of which this country has never seen in its history so as to send a very clear message that when the government is broken, our Constitution says we can dismantle it and start over again. That is the message we should be sending and all can start by getting off our asses and write to each of your elected officials. If they think you don't care, then you will get what you deserve. When they take notice, I can assure you things will change. They bank on the belief that a dumbed down society stuck in a cesspoole of apathy is more pliable. It's time to start pushing back....BIG TIME!
Well if it's based on expected refund checks, then I should expect a bill rather than a check.
Andy @ 34:
Mine went up just over 300, too.
It will be interesting to see how local governments fare when house appraisals fall thousands of dollars this fall. The housing "bubble" isn't just bad for consumers: It removes tax revenues from your local governments.
Dominos. Always playing dominos.
The biggest joke politcians play on the public is when they say they are going to lower taxes. Yes they get into office like bloomberg did in NY and lowered taxes. But everything else went up. Subway, bridge tolls, real estate taxes. parking. Everything. Happens everytime. We want all the services but we don't want to pay taxes. where is all this money gonna come from. people have to start being adults about this. You want stuff, you have to pay for stuff. So when a politician says the he will lower taxes I know he's bullsh**ting me. Happens everytime.
It's Voodoo Economics redux. As #8 Vance stated, If you made less than $8000 your're not going to see any rebate at all. If your income is slightly more than that, you might see a modest rebate. Guess who gets the most benefit of this rebate? Think hard. The wealthy, of course. What is needed are dramatic changes in our economic policy. Not these stop-gap measures that only benefit the wealthy. No matter who the next president is, Bush-o-nomics has got to end. The Tax cuts for the very rich are what got the country into this mess in the first place.
This check isn't to help poor people or old people. Washington doesn't give a damn about those people. This is to get money moving around in the market. Right now most of us aren't shopping and whopping it up. We are watching the money we have and trying very hard to spend it wisely. They are hoping, with this check, we'll go out and do what they have been doing for the past seven years, spend it like drunken sailors. I won't!
From what I remember the last time these checks were advances. They were deducted from any refund you were entitled to at the end of the year. So big fricken deal we can by a Nintendo Wii this month. Just seems like we can do alot better maybe build a bridge that doesn't fall in the water. Have some rational trade policies that encourage investment in America not Asia. Then again I don't get a 150 million dollar parachute like the rock star at these financial institutions that have raped and pillaged our economy
Samson- @ 32:
So we don't bitch that 50% of the Bush tax cuts went to people making over $250K/year. That's like 3% of the population.
I'll sit on any rebate check, thank you Herr Boosh. I won't spend a dime of it just to spite you, you obnoxious prick.
Lollimom @ 37:
We live in a small home and our second installment was "more" than the whole prior years taxes. We went to an appeal seminar and there were people who's tax bills almost doubled. Normally 25 people show up at these appeals. The room probably had 500 or 600 people there.
The state rep was in the room and when they introduced him I thought he was gonna need an escort out.
My point is..$ 800 dollars in the big scheme of things is an insult. I'd much rather have the country back. My 3 year olds grandkids are gonna be paying for this sheet.
Look, here's the skinny: when banks and financial companies do not know the amount of debt being carried because of declining assets re sub prime loans whatever the Fed does is irrelevant. It is a matter of rising liabilities against declining assets.
Each month the carrying of mortgages increases as values lessen. Merrill started out with a $9 billion loss estimate then it went to $12 billion at last count it reached $14 billion?? The same with Citibank and every commercial loan company.
So the Fed has no idea where to start. It is putting its financial fingers in the dike and the dam is breaking.
This administration has broke the bank.
Tax breaks? Tax relief? The entire system needs to be revamped. Duh!!
MBrillson
$800 will be enough to retain the attorney I need to represent me before the IRS.
if you want to !need too invest you money wisely! buy lots and lots of pretzels!!!! and ship them to the bastard at 1600 penn ave washington! your country will appreciate your decishion!
Weaseldog @ 46:
For debts occurred as a result of Republican policies, jobloss as my industry went to India...
ImpeachBushNowwww @ 25:
It looks as though Bush has fulfilled his grandfathers dream involving right-wing American businessmen. The coup ....
http://www.atlanticfreepress.com/content/view/2049/1/
Galbraith's account of 1929 is something to keep in mind over the coming weeks...
http://www.bullnotbull.com/bull/node/52
In other news....
Skyrocketing opium production and oil prices because of Bush's occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article3345186.ece
Che's Lounge @ 42:
yup, that would be it.
Lollimom @ 37:
Not so sure what you're getting at. Generally, property tax rates are set at the time a house is built, and then again when a town/city does a periodic municipality wide reassessment of all properties. If it is set when prices are high, it stays that way until the next reassessment and will drop or rise toreflect then current markey conditions. Regardless of your assessed value, the municipality still needs the same amount of money so your rate will just go opposite the assessed value after a municipality wide reassessment.
It's typically the change in budget that drives the amount you pay up or down.
For giggles and shits, I wonder what would happen if BushCo. had to pay us outa his own pocket? It would be funny to see his reaction. He fucked us so he should pay the child support.
ConcernedCanuck @ 3:
that is the best observation I've read about this. Weigh in some more. I know there are still a few big pictures I'm missing. Clearly it's a terrible idea, but I think there is an even worse idea in there. The getting the money back and pushing permanent tax breaks feels like the sound of someone unzipping, but not the hard lesson to follow, before they royally screw America.
Sigh @ 51:
Correct, ours resets every three years. We just happened to be assessed at or near the bubble's peak in 2006 and the whole townships RE taxes went up huge. In 3 years median property values rose 35 % from the last assessment according to the villages statistics. I do disagree that they will "drop" taxes if properties fall. That question was raised in the Q & A and the whole room laughed. Many people there had lived in homes for 30 years and never had their property taxes fall, only go up or stay flat.
Forget the $300, I want one of them pallet-full of $100 bills the Iraqis get periodically.
Now that'd be sweet.
Different Anonymous @ 55:
Now you're thinkin'!
Che's Lounge @ 42:
Yes, and the 'death tax' (aka the 'estate tax') only applied to about 3000 families in a country of 300 000 000. Yet, the Republicans spent half their time talking about that, and most of their voters swallowed it hook line and sinker. As if some homeless veteran living in a cardboard box is going to have the IRS hock the box after he's dead to pay the 'death tax.' I can't believe people were dumb enough to fall for that weapon of mass deception.
And while we're on the subject of 'hook, line, and sinker,' do you think that a fish that's about to swallow a worm, and end up in a frying pan as a result of it looks on the worm as HIS version of the Republican $300 tax rebate? I've always wondered about this.
Old Billy @ 6:
..no, it's not putting it back into the economy--for most folks (those in credit card debt up to their eyeballs) the money's already been spent, and this only goes to paying down a very small fraction of their existing debt.
I did get the $300 last time--it also went to existing debt....
Someone help me with this one:
Isn't using that $300 refund to pay for bill... a stimulus to the economy? I'm missing something here.
So let's say in 09 I am entitled to a refund from the IRS for $1000.00, If the govt. sends me a check in a couple of months for $500.00, will they then deduct that $500.00 dollars from the refund I'm entitled to in O9? Forgive me if I sound stupid, I'm just trying to figure this all out.
Paul @ 59:
I think they want you to buy something with the money so that there will be goods leaving the shelves. I had to preface that with "I think" because I just don't know for sure. Paying on your credit card, like someone said, is paying for something that left the shelf some time ago.
Check out the comments at WaPo – overwhelmingly placing blame on the Bush regime with few cheerleaders willing to defend him and when they do it's their typical, cheap worn-out rhetoric.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/18/AR200801...
Paul @ 59:
No, under the fiat system, it just cancels out part of your debt.
pissed off patricia @ 60:
That is how Bush I did it.
I think though that this will apply to taxes we file in 2009. they don't want this to influence this year's election in a negative manner.
jr @ 1:
Well said.
Does anyone honestly believe that if those numbers under taxes on your bi-monthly paycheck suddenly vanish that they'd be able to buy whatever they want or that the social programs that allow people to progress in society without becoming part of the crime rate will still be there if we keep cutting taxes without a shred of forethought?
I'd love to pass a law that states tax cuts can not be made unless the elected members of The American Representative Government (including President and Congress) take an equal percentage out of their annual salary and their pension as well.
I'd like to see these bastards make tax cuts when their own well being is on the line then.
They should do here, what they should have done in Iraq a long time ago. Put people to work building, in our case, aging infrastructure. That would create jobs, fix all the shit that is falling apart and stimulate the economy.
Had they done that in Iraq, the people would have had jobs, making money and have their lives back in better shape than they are now. Should have let the Iraqis do what useless contractors were incapable of doing and still haven't done.
Paul @ 59:
Not if the cost of that short-sighted and short-term stimulus does nothing to increase the salary of existing paychecks in the long run and especially if that cost takes away from social programs that would otherwise create greater social and economic desperation (not depression, desperation) which in turn can only feed the crime rates of this country.
Anytime the conservative retards would like to pretend they know jackshit about economics beyond the reach of their own fat asses, you just let me know.
Weaseldog @ 63:
Oh yeah, I remember that! First, a tax rebate one year, and then you had to subtract that amount from any refund for the next year, or add it into your gross income to tax your prepaid tax money. What a scam THAT was!
This is such a house of cards...BS myth
The 'contention' that the uber wealthy in this country will take their 'enormous tax break' and reinvest it into the economy...
Clue: They're not buying US stock, they're not opening businesses in the US, they're not investing the way you think....
If they're buying....its Gold, Silver, Real Estate (like the cliche...its the only thing they're not making more of)
Or they've converted their holdings to a Euro or Pound Sterling standard
That's something you'll never hear about from the right wingnuts, pseudo-economists out there...
Makes too much sense, doesn't it? To put people back to work fixing our collapsing infrastructure - which is desperatley needed. But the neo-cons are not interested in long term revitalization of this country. Just short-term,quick buck, and greed.
If I remember correctly, and there's no guarantee of that, but weren't those "tax cuts" just advances on our tax refunds? I mean, you still had to pay taxes that year, but if you had money coming back to you anyway, you just got it early?
Anyway, any "tax cut on loan" would only go to feather the oil and gas companies' nest some more, wouldn't it? With gas still at $3 a gallon, that's mighty expensive fuel. But look on the bright side, gas prices should be coming down in a few months in time for the Nov. Election.
The United States public debt, commonly called the national debt, or U.S. government debt, is the amount of money owed by the United States federal government to creditors who hold U.S. Debt Instruments. As of December 19, 2007, the total U.S. federal debt held by the public was roughly $5 trillion.[1]
This does not include the money owed by states, corporations, or individuals, nor does it include the money owed to Social Security beneficiaries in the future. If intragovernment debt obligations are included, the debt figure rises to roughly $9 trillion.[2] If unfunded Medicaid, Social Security, etc. promises are added, this figure rises to a total of $59.1 trillion.
pissed off patricia @ 65:
POP, that's sounds too much like the Marshall plan that rebuilt Germany and Japan after WWII, and we all know that that didn't work. Did it? ;) Besides the Neocons/Free Marketeers wanted desperately to prove that the free market works without a government to regulate it. IMHO they have failed miserably and made America less safe in the process.
L.A. Confidential @ 71:
So $300?
Think Indentured Servitude
Hey, Sigh, here's where it gets us. Our property taxes jumped that year in proportion to the cuts made by the Bush Administration to Federal support in education, transportation,etc. (basically whatever the Federal government gives to every state.) A normal jump would have been $20 or $30 bucks. Since we have no state income tax, the county has no choice but to raise property taxes to cover the short fall. This hits twice as hard because most of the income earned in Davidson County (Nashville) 'lives' in the surrounding counties.
It was snot a rebate, it was a refund advance. I had to pay it back during tax time because i owed.
I am far from being an economist. We were discussing the economic situation over here in "ts,ts,ts"-kind of fashion. To me and my friends it didn't sound too good and most were predicting a slump. Afte some research it looks to me as if it is going to be a very hard landing and Americans better watch out who is going to be their next President.
Old Billy @ 6:
If your buying gas with your money, it's not going back into the economy, just Exxon and other rich companies. The local gas stations get very little of the cost. I had to close a small retail store and a friend had to close a small restaurant, because people around here have no extra money for that kind of thing after filling their cars. Also small business pay more taxes (by percent) than the large corporations.
I got no $$$ last time.
Samson- @ 33:
Was so you wouldn't complain about the dividend tax cut.
i remember the 360 something check i got. it was like eating gall to cash it.
my daughter got nothing, my elderly mom and father in law got nothing as did (or didn't) my disabled brother in law.
my husband says he asked the working class republicans he knows how they spent the big bucks that they got paid for their votes. i told him to remind them that 360. is not a lot but don't worry cause the really rich got $24,000. (which they won't even notice by the way.)
Lewis Black has all of the answers we need.
Lewis in '08
weldon @ 11:
-----------------------------------
i woke up to my 401k losing 13,000 dollars in a few weeks...all the funds available for me to switch too are also pouring money out the wrong direction.
Bernanke is saying, as clearly as he can, that a temporary economic downturn shouldn’t be used as a cynical excuse to pass new long-term tax cuts or to make existing tax cuts permanent. Not only would that have no effect on the economy right now, but it would likely make future economic problems even more intractable.
Wow, that's long statement. My republican head is spinning...... Me no comprendo. Me don't understand. Say it in sim-pel ing-lish plea-she !!!
jen8933 @ 83:
Your 401k financed the purchase of holdings, of mortgage packages.
This video explains where your 401k money went.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ_qK4g6ntM
The speech by Bernanke was indeed his way of saying that a tax cut would be unwise.
OK. So Bernanke says its unwise. Since when is Bernanke knowledgable about economics?
When Paul confronted him about the dangers of printing money out thin air, all he said was the he is under orders from Congress to "stablilize the price level". But neither he, nor any Fed chairman before him, has any that it is impossible to know where we are in the cycle they themselves created. In other words, I would NOT take the advice of Bernanke to be anything but propaganda.
You have to convince yourself that these people simply cannot be trusted. Trustworthy, honest and moral people don't make it to the top of American politics, ESPECIALLY those in the government finance dept. Power is the only thing they care about, no matter WHAT they say about having a healthy economy, because a healthy economy can be had if it left alone to function without these destructive "stimulus packages".
The translation for these "stimulus packages", is to print and/or spend MORE money. The market is literally SCREAMING that it needs a gigantic correction. The longer the government delays this correction, by printing more and spending more to patch up the wound, the worse the NEXT recession will get, requiring even MORE "stimulus". We have been experiencing more frequent recessions in the economy in the last 20 years or so, and they are getting closer if you look at it...
1926, 1971, 1981, 1987, 1991, 1997, 2000, 2005
The market (all of the aggregate voluntary transactions) is suffocating and needs air. The air it needs is OPEN SPACE. The economy is dying slowly folks, I hate to say this because it is so sad, but our society has been warned of this by free market economists for over 150 years. They were and are constantly ridiculed, laughed at, and ignored. But you know what? They have a 100% prediction success rate. Lots of people like to think that 1929 was a surprise, much like 1987. But free market people know how the world works.
Oh, and by the way, some may say "so what? just keep printing and spending our way out of this thing."
The logical end point of this process (as we are getting ever closer to), is the complete breakdown of the US dollar, and hence CATASTROPHE on a MASSIVE scale.
Those who chastise the free market all the time (and everyone else) are going to feel what it feels like NOT to have a market. THEN we will start over and hopefully everyone will start saying
NEVER AGAIN
Never again will we as a nation leave it up to a small group of people to determine how much money is in the economy.
This is another thing Bernake mentioned a couple of times in his speech yesterday. Sure, you can give out another tax rebate, but its most likely going to be spent paying bills.
The Awol- AssCLOWN,of America shares is retarted wisdom again.This sorry pos-wants you to know he will help you in times of need.Wake the fuck up you 32% dum-asses who still support this little silver spoon feed little bitch.FUCK-bush &* so called coward shithead vp.Please for the love of god ,kill yourself .
I have some ideas for an economic stimulus package....not sure if it will work, so please let me know.
1) The war stops and the troops come home.
2) There is no federal taxes taken out for anyone in 2008 and 2009
3) 6 months into 2008 and 2009, with the money saved from no more war, each family receives a $5,000 tax rebate
4) Any pork barrel additives to bills are automatically pulled out and the representative who includes them automatically forfeits their office and cannot run for re-election for 20 years.
5) For 2008 and 2009, 50% of exec bonus money is distributed equally among all who work for that company. After those two years, if the company continues its positive earnings, the execs receive a third year of not having federal taxes taken out of their personal earnings.
Well, ......anyhow,.........it's just a thought. :)
you are doing a heck of a job Bushie!
-from papi bush-
Weaseldog @ 85:
--------------------------------
actually mine was/is tied to low priced stocks not real estate or loans or such.
a big sink hole sinks all boats?
jen8933 @ 91:
And yes, that is true. Everything is connected. If your foot is tied to the anchor, when the anchor goes down, you follow.
jen8933 @ 91:
Think of all of the businesses that depended on new home construction either directly or indirectly. And with that the shopping money from easy loans. New cars, blenders, computers...
What I faxed to one of my respresentatives today:
Friday, January 18, 2008
The Honorable Claire McCaskill
717 Hart Senate Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20510-2505
RE: Responsible Fiscal Stimulus Package to Avert a Recession
Dear Sen. McCaskill:
It is of paramount importance that concern over a possible recession not be used to justify fiscally irresponsible measures in response to political pressures or ideological fixations that would exacerbate the nation’s already serious long-term fiscal problems without providing cost-effective short-run stimulus.
As former Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers has said, to be effective stimulus measures must meet three basic tests: they must be timely, targeted, and temporary.
Responsible measure would include temporary extensions of unemployment benefits, aid to state governments (to help them avoid cutting programs or raising taxes during a recession), temporary increases in food stamp benefits, and tax rebates to low- and moderate-income households. These proposals would quickly direct funds to individuals and institutions most in need, and most likely to spend them.
Research has shown that reductions in corporate income tax rates are ineffective as a stimulus. Businesses base their hiring and firing decisions (and their decisions on purchasing raw materials) primarily on expectations about their ability to sell their goods and services — i.e., on customer demand — rather than on how much cash they have on hand.
A recent Goldman-Sachs analysis made this very point, noting that “companies don’t spend money just because it’s there to spend. To justify outlays for new projects, the expected returns have to exceed the costs, and that usually requires growth in demand strong enough to put pressure on existing resources.”
In fact, a temporary corporate rate cut would actually discourage new investment and production while in effect, since it would reduce the value of the deductions that companies claim when they invest, pay wages, or make other purchases. For example, a $1,000 deduction is worth $350 at the current 35% corporate tax rate. (A firm’s taxes are reduced by $350 — 35% x $1,000 — for each $1,000 deduction taken.) But the same deduction would be worth only $300 at a 30% corporate tax rate. Thus, businesses would have an incentive to delay investments and purchases that result in deductions until the corporate rate reverted to 35%.
In troubled economic times, I trust you’ll be responsible in protecting your constituents’ interests.
Respectfully,
Do with this "rebate" what I did with the last and will do with the next: Save it, folks; you're gonna need it!
It was a $300 bribe? Shit! All my husband, two kids and I got was $170...WTF? We were robbed!
That $300 tax cut was worse than a bribe, Dana. It effectively bought people's votes with their own money. That has been George Bush's M.O. -- buy what you want using other people's money.
Anyway, I can't see that the present rebate will do much good. The government will be borrowing money it doesn't have so that you can pay bills with money you don't have. As I see it, only the banks really make out on the deal. In the end, the taxpayers will have to repay the government's borrowing, with interest.
The Gulf States now have more than $2 trillion in foreign assets - most of it in dollars. The United States, by contrast, has only about $80 billion worth of foreign reserves.
Mr. Sheik. Can we borrow some of our money?
Tax cuts in themselves are always a good thing, because any form of tax cuts ultimately benefits the consumer (wage earner).
However, this is only half the story. If these tax cuts are not accompanied by an equal decrease in government spending, then the result will be more debt if they borrow, inflation if the government prints the difference, or the necessity of higher taxes in the future.
Reagen made the mistake of making huge tax cuts at the same time as he increased spending, and we all know how THAT turned out...
Here's whats going to happen, Dubya will pass his ridiculous tax cuts for the wealthy with the blessing of the subserviet 'please dont hurt me' Democratic Congress (watch 'The West Wing' for the reference) and it will hold off the recession...
until 2009, in which case the recession will be blamed, not on Dubya, but on whatever Democratics president is in office
before you freeze interest rates on the people who got suckered into arm's, how about providing a place to live for all the homeless. the situation they're in is much more critical than bailing out the people who bought more house than they could afford, with a mortgage they should have read.
"For decades, we have piled deficit upon deficit, mortgaging our future and our children's future for the temporary convenience of the present. To continue this long trend is to guarantee tremendous social, cultural, political, and economic upheavals.
You and I, as individuals, can, by borrowing, live beyond our means, but for only a limited period of time. Why, then, should we think that collectively, as a nation, we are not bound by that same limitation? " - Ronald Reagan, Jan 20, 1981
Too bad Reagan didn't practice what he preached, but eventually, the economy grew enough to keep pace with the increase of the deficit under Reagan. Remember back near the end of the Clinton years, when it was projected that the deficit would be eliminated. President Bush fixed that "problem" now didn't he, with tax cuts for the wealthy financed by borrowing, and waging war in Iraq, financed by borrowing. Kind of reminds me of the 1960s, where borrowing to finance the war in Vietnam ballooned the deficit, leading to the stagflation of the 1970s.
This stimulus package is intended to prime the pump, so to speak, but I'm not sure that it will do any more than provide a temporary alleviation of the symptoms of GOP fiscal irresponsibility. So long as the root causes aren't addressed, it will merely postpone a day of reckoning in grappling with the deficits. We can't afford to spend 1 out of 2 dollars on the world's budget for defense in order to be the world's policeman. We can't afford this expensive war on drugs. We can't afford wars of choice like Iraq. And we certainly can't afford $750B/year trade deficits, year after year. We can't afford a corporate welfare version of health care instead of the single-payer version used by 29 out of the 30 western nations that have universal health care. I noted the corporate media wants to keep Kucinich out of the debates, to keep his two big issues, free trade and single payer health care below the radar scope. We can't afford politicians corrupted by corporate lobbyists any more either. I think the corruption of our current crop of politicians is greater than any time in recent history.
Nope, not hearing anything that addresses the deficit spending that has gotten us into this mess, I don't see us getting out of this any time soon. Americans had it made with Clinton's fiscal responsibility, and the hope it would continue under Gore, and threw it all away. The bill for all of this is coming due.
I can't help thinking that we are being treated like unruly children that are being handed a lollipop hoping it will quiet us down. It's chicken feed, pure and simple. I watched the Sec. of Commerce and some other guy after the scumbag Preznit did his speech. I don't pretend to understand economics but it all sounded like double-talk to me. He said that manufacturing jobs in the U.S. numbered at five hundred million, the same as it was in the 50's or 60's....now that can't be good, can it? He was acting like it was the best news ever! On top of all the smoke these guys were blowing, they fidgeting around like they had ants in their boxers. Now that's a sure sign someone is lying. The next sound you hear will be the bottom falling out of the economy. Stock up on the ex lax kids....I think there is going to be a lot of people eating a lot of government cheese and stale bread. I'm glad my house is paid for. At least I'll be able to eat it under my own roof.
Actually they're(?) not stupid, there is an architect behind this plan(that's very easy to see)! To find out 'who', we need to ask ourselves one question, "who stand to profit from this?"
me @ 10:
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Which is exactly what Greenspan did. The housing bubble burst just as he left office.
He now blames anyone but himself for the credit bubble he created.
David Hill @ 100:
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Wasn't the 2001 recession called the Bush recession, even though the recession was locked in stone before Bush took office? Political partisans want to have it both ways.
Both political parties really need to knock it off.
Drew @ 99:
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Folks, here is the thing. Nothing works and everything works. A cycle ends every economic plan anyone has ever thought up. Every boom ends in a bust. PERIOD.
The average economic expansion runs 8 years or so. The Reagan/Bush expansion ran from 1983 to 1990. The Bush/Clinton expansion was a record at 10 years. The expansion was ending as clInton was leaving office. In fact, at the beginning of January, 2001, Greenspan made an emergency rate cut of 1/2%. The economic expansion would not have continued, even had Clinton been re-elected.
To stimulate the economy in 2008, cpongress is abandoning pay-go. In other words they are going to run deficits to pay for the stimulous. Why? BECAUSE DEBT EXPANSION GROWS THE ECONOMY.
Debt is good when it expands and bad when it contracts. It was a debt bubble which failed in 1930. When that bubble was growing it was called the roaring 20's. As the debt bubble was growing in the 1990's , it was called the roaring 90's.
You are attacking deficits, when households and businesses have been running on deficit financing for decades.
I would guess that except for the housing bubble and government deficits this decade, we would have in been deflation after the stock bubble burst.
The day of reckoning has been put off. It is still coming and no one wants to face it.
We need a recession, not a stimulous package. That is the blunt truth. We take the medicine now, or we take it later. There is no avoiding it.
Hoover/Roosevelt. The Great Depression lasted all the way through the decade of the 1930's.
dmhlt @ 94:
I have one for you, too. Just because the government writes me a check, does not mean i will spend it as a consumer. That is a false assumption as well.
" He’s absolutely DESPERATE to put off the day of reckoning until he’s out of office. —————
Which is exactly what Greenspan did. The housing bubble burst just as he left office. He now blames anyone but himself for the credit bubble he created. "
I think there is one additional aspect to the housing bubble that needs to be discussed. Yes, the low interest rates made mortgages more affordable, which created demand for housing, which drove up the prices. But the low interest rates isn't the only thing that happened here. Lenders were making loans with little or no money down, or interest only loans and then repackaging a portfolio of these loans into "mortgage backed securities" which were then given a grade AAA grade by the rating companies. These securities were then sold at a profit, because of this AAA grading, and that is where I think perhaps an element of fraud came into play. Because lenders, due to the grade of AAA was able to sell these portfolios, they were then able in turn make more loans. If the bundled securities has been correctly graded, the enterprise would have been less profitable, and less sub prime loans would have been made. This grading of the mortgage securities was the enabler of the sub prime loans.
But don't expect an administration, who currently looks for immunity for its criminal co-conspirators in the wiretapping felonies to be investigating any criminal malfeasance regarding the grading of these mortgage securities.
I thought this tidbit was interesting:
The Panic Starts
By Jim Sinclair
1-18-8
There is no doubt the Fed and the PPT [Plunge Protection Team] are meeting right now. A drop of over 300 points on the Dow after the Chairman of the Federal Reserve speaks publicly presages a 1000 point break in the Dow Jones Industrial Average coming quite quickly, if not tomorrow.
Unless the equity markets can be calmed, a panic is about to happen, making the statement "This is it" a horrible reality.
If the equity markets cannot be calmed then:
Recognize this is the Formula happening like everything else much sooner and much bigger in its implications than anticipated. Gold will rise to $1650 as an almost immediate effect of what will be done to attempt to fend off a total panic starting to take place in general equities, therein threatening to be followed by all credit markets of all kinds. The funds and hotshot short term traders in gold shares will be killed by the upward explosion of the gold price about to occur.
The PPT and the Fed will step out of gold's way because gold is one of the tools used in 1930 by Roosevelt and in 2000 by Bush. It will be used again now on the upside. Gold is the only insurance there is against what all this means because a panic in equities will blow the financial system, already coming apart, to smithereens. All country funds would shut down on any further investments in "at the wall" financial institutions. The rollover in credit and default derivatives would exceed the entire foreign debt of the USA. The rest of the $450 trillion dollar mountain of derivatives would start a disintegration like nothing you have every seen in your lifetime.
Consumer demand would slam shut. The auto industry might as well go into liquidation this coming Monday, avoiding the June 2008 rush. The US dollar would burn a hole in the floor going directly to .5200 or lower. As the dollar disintegrates gold would rocket to and through $1650 in days. The markets for general equities would all have to institute total trading halts every 100 points on the downside for 30 minutes each. All commercial call loans would be called. All debtors one day late on any payment, lacking grace period, would be liquidated. All debtors over one day of the grace period would be liquidated. It is clearly visible to anyone with eyes or a mind to think that the PPT has lost all semblance of control in the equity markets and will soon in all remaining markets. The commercial paper credit market which is almost dead will die totally. Should no emergency action take place soon, you will see an old fashioned panic of the 1929 variety. Just as emotional fools sell gold and gold shares, be assured that more emotional general equity fools will unload and bring the averages down more than ever in history in one day.
Recognize this is the Formula happening like everything else much sooner and much bigger in its implications than anticipated. Emergency action will be all splash and theatrics but truthfully the cat is out of the bag. It buys some time but corrects nothing. It makes the Formula 100% correct. There now must be EMERGENCY ACTION because the Chairman of the Fed has BOMBED OUT PUBLICLY and a PANIC is about to occur. Expect EMERGENCY ACTION in days, not weeks.
If you have not protected yourself, you may only have days to do so now.
http://jsmineset.com/
Economy? Wasn't bushie just kissing some hairy saudi guy? (I know, he'll say he was too drunk on oil to remember...)
Though I do love how whenever some rich friends want a free loan, they'll squeeze bushie for another tax cut we all know they're going to get. Tee hee hee.
How about reasonable usury fees. There's a loan with a 99.1% interest rate! Sold to desperate people by Gary Coleman, whom no one should trust in the first place. And both Bill Clinton and GWB helped put the laws in position to make this happen.
Hey you three (John is there) if you care about the economy so conveniently, why don't you tell us a timetable for forcing all banks and loan companies to bring loan rates within a reasonable rate (that us, no higher than 25% unless you're a loan shark) as soon as your foot gets into office.
Oh, I know who is PACing your lunch.
Just remember who actually votes you in.
Or out.
Mine will be confiscated and turned over to Edfund to pay back the student loan I defaulted on, which not even bankruptcy can discharge.
I want my rebate in Euros.
As my wife and I did with our last rebate (we gave it to progressive / liberal candidates), PLEASE GIVE ANY REBATE, IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT, TO SOMEONE OR SOMETHING THAT MATTERS. PLEASE.
We absolutely cannot afford anymore of this.
I gave my $300 to John Kerry's campaign in '04, and I plan on doing something similar with whatever he hands out now.
I was in Tampa with my son and 2 granddaughters when those "refund" checks came out. My son, who was supporting me and his daughters, received a check for $1.00. Yes, ONE DOLLAR. That is not a typo. His brother-in-law, who was also living with him, who is not married and has no dependents, received the full $300.00. But what he didn't KNOW until I told him, as it had been announced on the news, and everyone ignored it, was that come tax time that refund was deducted from the refund they WOULD HAVE received. He, of course, didn't believe he would have to "pay it back" in January, or, February until the time came and he did.
This kind of "fix" may help when it happens, but hurts later.
Similar to Tim @115, my $300 eventually ended up going in large part to Kerry, and the rest to Feingold, Move-On and the ACLU.
If this happens again, my economic stimulus goes to whatever political candidate promises to put an end to corporate abuse and bring the Bush Crime Family to justice.
Should we start a pledge fund?
OK, I'll weigh in as one of the (few?) Paulite conservatives who like this site because of it's stand on the war (which conservatives of my bent opposed before almost any Dems did) and other Republican stupidity over the past seven years. I'm embarrassed to say I voted for Bush in 2000. But he is without a doubt in my mind the worst President in history.
Let me tell you how things really work. I invest for a living. The tax cuts passed in 2003 are the ONLY good thing that has occurred on Bush's watch. And they weren't the product of his administration, they came from Bill Thomas and others in Congress. What is being proposed now is a redux of Bush's 2001 cuts which were "putting money in people's pockets" Keynesian crap and had no positive effect on the economy. These will have no positive effect either, and will only fuel more inflation. That's why the market tanked this week -- we saw Bernanke, Paulson, Bush etc. abandoning the push for making the cuts permanent (in effect a tax increase). The cost of capital will rise, stocks will fall, inflation will rise. Yada, yada, yada.
With Bush and his boy favoring Keynesian solutions, we have no real conservatives left in government. The Dems will take over, and probably be not much better. The economy will tank. Obama or Hillary will be like Jimmy Carter, inheriting a mess and making it worse. But, like Carter, it won't be all their fault.
The problems in our economy don't come from having taxes to low, they come from lousy Fed policy over the past decade and a lack of regulation in the real estate market. I think we need regulation here -- just as we have the SEC in the securities market, we need a REMC (Real Estate & Mortgage Commission) to regulate the real estate market. Yes, that's right, a conservative advocating for more regulation. The best thing to come out of the Depression was the SEC, which made our markets more trustworthy and therefore more efficient.
Because of Bush's incompetence and guilt by association, conservatives (both in name and true ones like me) will have to spend our time in the wilderness. Things are gonna get ugly. Get prepared.
Who is John Galt?
What I want to know is whether that check is an IOU to China or are we just at the point of printing money for domestic consumption these days?
If it's a bribe to elect McCain or the Huck-ster, it better be more than $300. A lot more to make up for eight years of Bush.
Just wondering, Do we get a $800.00 rebate check this year???
i think that we should be getting the refund in the next couple months....but as the others have said we will pay that back in the next tax year....absolutely ridiculous...i need all my money to pay my bills and get myself out of debt...how helpful is it that they are just giving me my money in advance and then taking it away?? makes no sense.......
so my question is if i dont claim this check and i dont spend it will i then have to pay it back??
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