It will serve our government right to be placed on such a list, since our spineless, now Democratic-led Congress failed to do something about this Administration when they had the chance.

If Nancy Pelosi leaves impeachment on the table, John Conyers gets to hold hearings, officials get held accountable and somebody goes to jail for torturing prisoners and not being able to define waterboarding as torture.

Legacy, my ass. What will the next President do to restore good-faith among global leaders and clean up America's reputation?

For this reason, Pelosi needs to be stripped of her Speaker position. Forget making history, she's contributing to FUBARing this country with her non-actions, and slamming other Congressional members who remember they represent US, the people.

Reid needs to go as well for the same reasons. Chris Dodd needs to replace him as Majority Leader, and Pelosi can be replaced by any member of Congress with a spine.

Do you have the Countdown clip of Keith talking about Bill Clinton in Vegas and Mitt getting angry? I heard it was at the beginning of last night's show.

Thanks!

Well, at least he proved Fox and Friends wrong in their claim he runs MSNBC, because if he had that much clout, Kucinich would be included in the debates.

Sometimes you can't bite the hand that signs your paycheck - although if Olbermann gets tired of covering up enough shyt, he might decide he has enough cheddar and a fan following to tell the brass to "F--- Off".

How many of us work for bosses who FUBAR but you can't afford to tell them that because to do so would leave you joining the ranks of the UNEMPLOYED?

What a disgrace.

Isn't torture a capital crime in this country? We could legally send everyone associated with torturing prisoners - from the top to the bottom - to the firing squad for this.

Let's get the ball rolling on this and execute us some fascists!

From the first three entries in this segment.

Ya ever get that feeling that there are folks here who would like you to believe that they are good old boys demos, who are really great big old RePUGs telling what they think needs to happen to the demo leadership in Washington.

I have the same feelings a couple of times, but gave it up when I figured there is no action about to be taken and my histrionics will not change it any quicker.

My feeling and I know it is my feeling is if you are a demo and you have this feeling with Miss Nancy or Henry the Slugger is get over it.

If your a rePUG, I understand how you have to say something for your condition so just project on, I understand how you guys have to blame others for the conditions we live in now.

Who cares what Keith Olbermann says or does anymore. After MSNBC's shameful behavior in the Kucinich matter, I am boycotting that disgusting organization, and I encourage others to do the same.

P.S. Olbermann can act like the champion of "truth, justice and the American way," all he wants in his "Special Comments," but the fact is, his paymaster's behavior gives the lie to everything he says. If he had any REAL principles, he would have done something to prevent the network from doing what it did to Kucinich (or at least, he would have "specially" commented on what they did). Keith is a corporate toady, just like everyone he villifies.

Will Canada change it's policy on extraditing draft dodgers and deserters now?

I hope that every short sighted jackass that supported the torturing of other human beings is fucking PROUD to see us on a short list with Syria and Iran.<<<<<<

The low level sociopaths who advocate and support torture aren't going to care what Canada thinks. Canadians are WANNABEE NOT AMERICANS. USA! US! USA! SUPPORT THE TROOPS! till they get home, that is. Then let em sleep under a bridge while waiting for Bill-O to get them set up.

sorry , --no dennis --no keith. I am done with all things nbc.
i wont even watch clips on c&l.

say no to big media

This is a sad commentary of what our country has become. I love this country, but Bush and Co. have totally destroyed our reputation and credibility. The next election is the most important in our lifetime. I hope we don't screw it up. Sigh!

O/T sort of-
Can someone please tell me why we haven't seen a HUGE C&L headline and clip of B.O.'s praise yesterday of RONALD REAGAN?!!!!!!???

Unbelievable. I really am beginning to wonder if the side banner ad on the right side of the page here is having an impact on editorial content of C&L. Tell me it ain't so, John! This Obama blunder is just an enormously stupid comment, and shows a lack of historical perspective.

The government of Canada is hardly a monolithic enterprise. The head of the RCMP made a bad call. It cost him his reputation and his job.

THE GOP PLAYBOOK..... how to get cheap labor and anything else you want:

1) do whatever you want (kill indians, steal land, slavery, jap camps, torture, attack iraq)

2) take whatever you want

3) wait 20 years and say you are sorry... but don't give anything back...

4) rinse and repeat

------- dont worry, god will forgive you

espo @ 26:

Martskers @ 15:

Who cares what Keith Olbermann says or does anymore. After MSNBC's shameful behavior in the Kucinich matter, I am boycotting that disgusting organization, and I encourage others to do the same.

P.S. Olbermann can act like the champion of "truth, justice and the American way," all he wants in his "Special Comments," but the fact is, his paymaster's behavior gives the lie to everything he says. If he had any REAL principles, he would have done something to prevent the network from doing what it did to Kucinich (or at least, he would have "specially" commented on what they did). Keith is a corporate toady, just like everyone he villifies.

agreed. no dennis, no keith

For you maybe, but since I don't know your motives and won't know on the net. I just gotta figure out if your for Dennis or if you are a someone who doesn't like Keith.

So do you feel that folks watch CNN or FAUX news instead? or is OK if we watch Tucker or Crossfire?

Ian McGarrett @ 27:

The government of Canada is hardly a monolithic enterprise. The head of the RCMP made a bad call. It cost him his reputation and his job.

When you work for criminals, then obeying your conscience and the law will get you in hot water.

We are going to create an iCity iOn iA iShining iHill.

Hey America...

pointing index & middle finger at eyes,
pointing index & middle finger at America,
pointing index & middle finger at eyes,
pointing index & middle finger at America

Canada.

What a proud legacy Bush and Cheney will leave this country with.

Who said they were leaving? That fence around the White House is the only thing standing between BushCo and serious prosecution. What incentive do they have to "leave?" Who's gonna make them leave if they don't want to? He's the Unitary, remember? This is a time of (fabricated) war, and he can do as he pleases. Bush has already thumbed his nose at most aspects of the Constitution. He's signed an order granting him extraordinary powers in a national emergency. Now all he needs is the emergency. I can't imagine that anyone believes he's not going to take that next step.

To quote Kenobi: You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.

The truth is, it is our fault. After 911, we were complacement and so was the press. I, for one, believed Bush when he talked about WMDs. Only shortly after I realized we were conned. The fact that he won in 2004 still amazes me. We reap what we sow.

below_me @ 2:

keith you earned yourself the worst person in the world Wednesday night. You didn't mention a single thing about your bosses barring kucinich...

you complain billdo does murdochs dirty work.... well you did GE's dirty work.

shame on you keith.

Finally, This is the first mention I've read of this. Even though Mr. Olberman is prolly the best champion for the little guy on the MSM we have he should not get a pass on this issue. Just because some ones on "our side" is no reason to let some thing like this slide. Keith could at least make a mention of his remiss in not addressing this travesty of democracy and fairness. The people deserve better.

The U.S. also made its way onto the list of countries where surveillance is endemic (compiled by a British group and Privacy International).

And I take 'America does not torture' with the same seriousness as 'The SEC says there is no case' - it was clear to anyone who chose to listen that Bush was a weasel and a liar who has never been held accountable for anything he's done in life.

Bending the topic a little, it should be mentioned that Maher Arar was awarded a zillion dollars for his troubles which seems to be the only way that the U.S. will ever get the message. It should also be mentioned that Mr Arar, proven innocent, is still not allowed into America even though I'm sure he doesn't have thoughts of ever touching his foot onto that sorely blemished soil again.

I will continue to watch Keith Olbermann, he tells the truth, wheather anyone likes it or not. I will NOT blame him for the flat tire I got last week,WW I,WW II, or black holes in space.

Weaseldog @ 17:

Will Canada change it's policy on extraditing draft dodgers and deserters now?

Good question.
I'm one of the supporters for sanctuary to any and all trying to escape the world war that the shrub co. crime syndicate is committing against the entire planet.
We have always provided it in the past but now that the fat bastard toady posing as our prime minister got the word from his lord and master in the US suddenly anyone trying to get away from the war is a criminal.

Fuck I HATE that worthless cocksucker harper. May he die of an embolism on the toilet.

Unfortunately being on the short list for torturing will have no effect on the Republican base. They have sold out to: The end justifies the means. The end is national security, so the means is anything goes. If they were really religious, they would realize how evil this is. But you can't expect everything.

P.D. @ 41:

The truth is, it is our fault. After 911, we were complacement and so was the press. I, for one, believed Bush when he talked about WMDs. Only shortly after I realized we were conned. The fact that he won in 2004 still amazes me. We reap what we sow.

I wasn't a fan during the campaign. Shortly after the China spy plane incident, I made the prediction - based on my perceptions of W's character - that we'd have a domestic terrorist incident within six months, and be at war within a year. If you count the truck driver who crashed his vehicle into California's state capitol building, I was right (otherwise I was three months off).

It is time for "WE THE PEOPLE" to wake up to what's happening to our democracy.

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/263.html

Wow, another first for our scumbag President and his boss Dick Cheney. This mis-Administration is responsible for so many firsts. All of them BAD. This is so Bizarro Land. This should make me nail spittin', sputterin' mad (as my Father would have said). I can't say I really am. More disappointment than anything else. No one should be surprised really. Think about it, the previous Congress allowed Habeas Corpus to be suspended and torture to be legislated and WE, as a people, are treated like potential terrorists...in that we are spied on, on a regular basis. That is just a fraction of the indignation that the nation has suffered under these pigs. As it has been said before and as we all know, it will take decades for our country to repair the unforgivable damage this CRIMINAL Administration has to us both domestically and internationally. It's official, we are no better than Iran, China, Syria or any other country that violated human rights on a regular basis.

How is it these Madmen were allowed to continue for TWO terms? Why is it that they are not being held accountable?

So, according to Swift, if )1 torture was effective in gaining information, and 2) the practice did not alienate our allies, it would be acceptable for the U.S. to continue the practice.

Is anything wrong with this picture?

MargeAggedon @ 4:

The government of Canada is completely complicit in the arrest, illegal deportation and torture of Maher Arar and Omar Khadr. The reason the US went on the watch list is due to the backlash created by these two cases. This is why Canadian troops no longer have a mandate to hand over any prisoner taken in Afghanistan to US troops and why they are now on the 'watch list'.
Hopefully the abuses will end once we get rid of the fat bastard shrub co. employee pretending to be our prime minister.

You said it! Steve with the minority government could be out of a job very soon... depending on how the people vote.

Billy Pilgrim @ 61:

So, according to Swift, if )1 torture was effective in gaining information, and 2) the practice did not alienate our allies, it would be acceptable for the U.S. to continue the practice.

Is anything wrong with this picture?

Yes, thanks for noticing. No mention that it is illegal to torture or immoral. Only mentioned that it is just bad for our reputation. That is the military company line. Mullen said the exact same thing, nearly word for word, when he stated that Gtmo should be closed. It is all about how we look and not about what we are...which is torturers.

earl @ 22:

Blue Buddha @ 14:

Wow. Even our closest ally hates us. Way to go, Bush.

Seen this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztBGS74ZVpI

Yeah... great, huh?

MargeAggedon @ 54:

doggedly @ 40:

Weaseldog @ 17:

Will Canada change it's policy on extraditing draft dodgers and deserters now?

No but we just might change our policy on exporting OIL.

HA! Not unless Canada is looking to become an american colony.

Given the current state and committments of U.S. military, I would suggest you lower your voice...

Billy Pilgrim @ 61:

So, according to Swift, if )1 torture was effective in gaining information, and 2) the practice did not alienate our allies, it would be acceptable for the U.S. to continue the practice.

Is anything wrong with this picture?

1. Name anyone who opposes torture who has argued that it doesn't provide info from the tortured person. The point is, as McCain has stated repeatedly, that it is unreliable, and therefore USELESS info.

2. I assume you meant to type "IF the practice...etc". C'mon, that's a childish point. He obviously was stating just one of many reasons why torture is wrong and stupid to do. He clearly wasn't saying that it would be OK if that one reason wasn't true.

And to navyswan, go back and watch the whole thing again. In pointing out the legal parsing that isn't happening in Europe in Canada, he clearly is stating that it IS illegal.

lazloman @ 72:

A sad day indeed when the US is linked with countries such as Iran and Syria on the torture scale. Whoever becomes president has an obligation to clean up this country's name. Bring back the America that everyone looks to for the positive. It seems that since 9/11, we have become a country of terrified, thumb sucking children lashing out and anything and everything that looks scary. We need to become the compassionate nation that cares about people, not one where our leader does saber dances in chop squares while begging for oil.

The problem is, since the Bush Administration has lied and destroyed evidence, even if the next president immediately declares the previous administration's policies to be morally bankrupt and reprehensible, nobody will care. The damage has been done.

Who's going to believe a country that conducted secret renditions and played word games over torture?

Praedor Atrebates @ 74:

Will Canada change it’s policy on extraditing draft dodgers and deserters now?

You know, that is an interesting question. I daresay that the placing of the US on a list of torturing nations gives deserters, etc, a Canadian-made defense to prevent their extradition. How can the Canadian government justify extraditing someone to a nation that tortures people?

I was just going to say that! So, this is actually very good news for us, when the draft is reinstated and we need to flee to Canada.

Frank @ 75:

Praedor Atrebates @ 74:

Will Canada change it’s policy on extraditing draft dodgers and deserters now?

You know, that is an interesting question. I daresay that the placing of the US on a list of torturing nations gives deserters, etc, a Canadian-made defense to prevent their extradition. How can the Canadian government justify extraditing someone to a nation that tortures people?

I was just going to say that! So, this is actually very good news for us, when the draft is reinstated and we need to flee to Canada.

Canada provided refuge for those seeking asylum from the insanity of the Vietnam war -- and, of course, the proto-neocons screamed and squawked to high heaven about how Canada was our enemy. Oddly, it was Canada, and the British Empire that squawked and screamed at the U.S. when, during the Crimean War, we offered refuge from Canadians fleeing conscription.

The point is, the imperialist of today may be the refuge of tomorrow and the refuge of yesterday may become the scourge of decent and civilized nations today.

The truth is that Canada is right.

America has gone completely mad. The enemy is at the helm and has been for a long long time.

The funny thing about this crooked administration is that the head monkey is so incredibly stupid that he allowed his Flying Monkeys to pull back the curtain and expose the Wizard of Oz.

The world at large knows the truth and as Americans one by one quit bloviating over their self importance are awakening to the fact that we are a rogue nation. Not the light on the hill. We are the MONSTER afoot in the world.

America is a rogue nation. There is no simpler truth.

So when oh when are we going to get rid of the CIA?

When our country falls?

Can we THEN build a new nation without them?

Shadowgm @ 82:

clumberfeet @ 80:

Lt. Cmdr. Charles Swift needs to be convicted of wife beating because he refused to let inspectors see the tapes he made while beating his wife.
He'll probably use the same old excuse, There are no tapes or WMD's or nuclear weapons.

What are you talking about?

I'm talking about fabricated accusations that require proving a negative to deny.

A couple of points about this. First, the "watch list" was a training exercise designed to make people think about what the watch list means. It was not an "operational document" -- or so Foreign Affairs is now saying.

Secondly, the point was made correctly above that most Canadians love Americans, as long as they are in groups of not more than three. It's when they act collectively that they tend to horrify and disgust. (It is a mark of the depths to which US reputation has sunk that even life-long Conservatives who abhor everything that former Liberal Prime Minister Jean Chretien ever did, said or thought in his life will grudgingly admit that he was right to keep us out of the Iraq war this time. I am one of those conservatives, and it galls me to admit that Chretien was right about anything. But he was that time.)

Thirdly, Canadian law (not policy) has never changed on draft dodgers. One of the requirements for extradition is that the offence alleged must also be a crime under Canadian law. Since Canada has not had any form of a military draft since conscription during WW II, there is no legal way to extradite draft dodgers to the US. The problem is that the current deserters are all volunteers. Desertion is an offence under the National Defence Act in Canada, so they get sent back to face trial.

Finally, speaking as a 22 year lawyer and a 24 year officer in the CF, CHARLIE SWIFT IS MY HERO!! The fatal miscalculation that the Bushies made was to regard the JAGs as lawyers in uniform. They are military (or naval) officers with law degrees. In other words, they are *officers* with a specialty in law, rather than lawyers specializing in military law. Swift himself has said that everything he did in the Hamdan case was exactly based on what they taught him at Annapolis.

Jim

I applaud Canada's move. I am so proud of them, for this act and for their cummulative behavior on the international scene for the last generation.

There is more to this than meets the eye. And, Canada's act is pregnant with potential.

Today, we have government through applied sociopathy. It is a thing devoid of conscience or any real, demonstrable trace of morally principled underpinnings. America is now the world's only rogue nation of significance. The reins of control are in the hands of either the morally crippled and depraved who are enabled by the morally craven. We have become the world's epicenter of injustice, from which emanates endless ripples of cruelty, shame, atrocity and evil. Our leaders are people of limitless mendacity, made insane by their unbridled lust for power and wealth. Of those who should be opposing them, in Congress, in the courts and in the press and media, few actually do. The rest have thrown in their lot with the leaders and have become complicit, actively collaborating enablers. Between the leaders and the enablers, they have committed or enabled the commission of every crime known to the mind of man and God upon a hapless world.

We are now ruled by clinically definable sociopaths, borderline psychopaths and psychopaths. A salient feature among such disordered adult personalities is that they never reform, are never rehabilitated. Self constitutes their supreme and sole objective reality. Selfish indulgence of the impulse toward absolute selfishness is the only activity in life that makes any sense at all to them. At the visceral gut level, all others lack objective reality - even those whom they profess to love or those whom they call friends. In fact, they love only themselves and they do not form bonds of true friendship with anybody. In consequence, all others are reduced to mere things which are lacking in essential consequence, which are mere objects in the environment to be manipulated as suits untroubled whim or fancy. No other, outside of self, matters.

The outcome of this is a mind and being that is incapable of truly experiencing the moderating influences of either empathy or shame, because both of these attributes of developed humanity are unavailable to them. They exist only as incomprehensible abstractions. Their rare displays of empathy or shame are never more than affectation, are always performed for an audience and are always intended to manipulate. If any emotion at all is involved in such play-acting, it is only self-pity. Nonetheless, it is vital that these types of personalites become masters at affecting the pretenses of humanity, because they are all, at their core, predators. As regards acts of predation within human society, Human predators cannot succeed in their predation if they are incompetents at extracting trust from the unsuspecting. Trust is the lure that enables betrayal of trust. Trusts are extracted only so that they can be betrayed at that critical moment which renders the act of predation successful. The point of predation is ever more, and ever greater, acts of predation.

All of the above leads in only one direction. If given unlimited means and opportunity, a combination of circumstances which could be defined as the power to act without restraint, these disordered personalities are capable of committing limitless amounts of harm, and doing so with an utterly untroubled mind. They will commit a lifetime of serial acts of predation, without cessation, so long as means and opportunity exist. They never stop of their own accord. Limitations on behavior never come from within. Limitations are always, without exception, externally imposed.

These are the types of people who are in control of our government. They are unresponsive to the Sovereign Will of the People. They believe themselves to be so secure in their grasp of power, that they no longer feel any need to waste their predator's energy affecting false and manipulative pretensions of any sort as part of efforts to control and hold power over their subjects. In their minds, we have been passified and made incapable of threatening their hold on power.

But the international community is a different story. Here, their designs can still be thwarted, because our grasp on power at the global level is far from complete. Maintaining credible pretenses is still vital.

Their dark dreams can be ruined in a few ways. the process can be initiated by piercing the predator's pretenses. When a human predatorwho lacks absolute power is known as the predator, he can no longer extract trust from potential prey. The inability to extract trust from potential prey begins the process of failing as a predator. There is nothing that a human predator - the sociopath, the borderline psychopath or the psychopath - fears more than being broadly exposed and truthfully named by others who are of consequence. Effectively, this is what Canada has just done. The Canadians have publicly pierced the pretense. They have named the game. The Canadians are others who are of consequence.

Canada's act is sure to spread. As more and more countries pierce this regime's public pretenses, through the simple act of naming the game, they can find a unity. From within that unity they will discover - or remember - that they have the ability to impose external limitations upon the power to act on those who are themselves incapable of summoning self-imposed limitations. This begins a process of externally imposed isolation. Through the imposition of sanctions, or by widely ostracizing our govenment or by whatever the means, others of consequence can, despite our power, remove both means and opportunites to commit acts of predation and harm in the global community. This is how the process of bringing irredeemable rogue nations into compliance with minimum norms of acceptable behavior begins.

Mexico and EU nations need to adopt Canada's example.

.

R E M E M B E R:

Congress entertains the notion that enhanced interrogations which include degrading treatment, waterboarding and mental anguish isn't "TORTURE" while choosing to not acknowledge the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions that outline and forbid these exact forms of enhanced interrogations that call this ... TORTURE.

It is Congress who entertains the idea of TORTURE being legal.
It is the CIA who defends it's use.

.

Alot of people keep crying about poor Dennis Kucinich, Ron Paul, Mike Gravel. They blame big corporations and MSM for there guys not taken seriously. All these guys are on the fringe of there partys. Most all people who vote know who these guys are and what they stand for. The fact of the matter is, that most people who call themselves dems or repugs are not going to vote for someone who is not mainstream party folks. These guys never had a chance winning as a dem or repug. The media knows this is true, no matter how much their supporters want to believe otherwise. Getting upset and not watching msnbc, cnn, abc ect, ect is a waste of time. If any of these people were really serious about being president, they would have started years ago trying to rally their supporters to a third party instead of running as dems or repugs. Why would the MSM take them seriously when they really aren't serious themselves.

Not watching KO because of the Kucinich thing?

Why not the Supreme Court thing?
Why not any of the other 500 stories the MSM doesn't cover.

Look, I know everyone's pissed about Dennis being booted but grow up, guys. Not attacking your superiors is not being a "toady", it's keeping your damn job.

You want to get pissed, get pissed at all the other networks not criticizing MSNBC for what they did. I know we all love to watch him do it, but Keith can't fight all our battles. I'm still proud of him for giving a voice to the dissenters.

diamondmc @ 91:

Alot of people keep crying about poor Dennis Kucinich, Ron Paul, Mike Gravel. They blame big corporations and MSM for there guys not taken seriously. All these guys are on the fringe of there partys. Most all people who vote know who these guys are and what they stand for. The fact of the matter is, that most people who call themselves dems or repugs are not going to vote for someone who is not mainstream party folks. These guys never had a chance winning as a dem or repug. The media knows this is true, no matter how much their supporters want to believe otherwise. Getting upset and not watching msnbc, cnn, abc ect, ect is a waste of time. If any of these people were really serious about being president, they would have started years ago trying to rally their supporters to a third party instead of running as dems or repugs. Why would the MSM take them seriously when they really aren't serious themselves.

I see what you're trying to say, but who decides? Who chooses who's "mainstream" enough to run? This is the BS that John Edwards is having to fight through.

THIS is exactly the problem with our current two party system.

How can Swift make a claim that "It(torture) doesn't work. You have no idea as to it's credibility....You have forced the information out. You have no idea whether it was true or not."

If you interrogate someone and they say, "bad guys x and y are at location z", you can pretty easily verify if what they said was true or not. Granted, not all information is so easily verified, but the point of any such measure is to gain information that you can attempt to verify. It's not like they're going to let the guy go before they at least try to verify the information.
Does that excuse torture on moral grounds? That's up to you. But I'm much more likely to listen to someone who argues against torture on moral grounds, rather than on its effectiveness. I'm pretty sure that it works a lot of the time.

Comicstrips can be so truthful sometimes: http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html?uc_full_date=20080117

True North @ 86:

Thank you from Canada

I appreciate reading posts like these - if only to reassure myself that there are still lots of rational, moral, good Americans who are paying attention and give a damn.

And - despite GE owned/influenced NSNBC's despicable affront top public discourse in Kucinich/debate affair, you have to admit that Oberman (and even Abrams in his weird way) are almost the only game in town right now - other than /Stewart/Colbert/Moyers. They deserve support - and need it to survive.

You make so much sense, are you sure your from Canada?