January 18, 2008 12:45 PM
Go Huckabee!
If Thompson doesn't win this one will Lady MacCheney throw in the towel? And Mike really didn't mean anything meant by this:
“You don’t like people from outside the state coming in and telling you what to do with your flag,” Mr. Huckabee, a former governor of Arkansas, told supporters in Myrtle Beach, according to The Associated Press.
“In fact,” he said, “if somebody came to Arkansas and told us what to do with our flag, we’d tell them what to do with the pole; that’s what we’d do.”
He feels that the Confederate flag is a private matter for SC and nobody should be shocked by what it stands for...Or something...
I hate to say it, but I kinda agree. I mean, I could care less about the southern "heritage", but the government shouldn't be interfering with the 1st amendment (although they have done so for politically correct reasons before).
That said, the huckster is scary. Although his version of sweet home alabama ain't bad.
B
The Confederate flag had all but disappeared from view, until the civil rights movement took hold. It's classic backlash, but why would anyone expect Huckabee to know anything about that!
BAC
Even more troubling: Huckabee Wants to Replace Social Security With ‘Loaves and Fish’ Program
Isn't " I love your flag" code for "I hate those darkies"?
I do think this race, supported by corporate idiots, will once again, give us another 4 years of national decay.
How bad does it have to get for people to realize that our country is broken?
Even more troubling is the long range plans.
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/261.html
stolen from tapped: "the flag is just as much a symbol of lawlessness in defense of apartheid as treason in defense of slavery."
Bored: I suppose that if the local German club in your town wanted to fly the Swastika as part of their "heritage", you would have no trouble with that either?
"stars and bars" pops up once in a while out here on the range... and I could care less what kind of sticker (or rag) people want to hang in their pick-up trucks...
But you better BY-GOD NOT hang that flag over a State House or governor's mansion... where public money is involved. Lincoln and a lot of boys in Blue DIED over that fight more than a hundred years ago. HISTORY tells us THE south LOST THE WAR... and therefore LOST THE RIGHT TO DISPLAY THAT FLAG IN AN OFFICIAL CAPACITY ON A PUBLIC BUILDING.
AP calls Nevada for willard the flip flopper.
More delegates than SC.
Man this global warming is fantastic.
http://sirocco.accuweather.com/iwxpage/adc/popup/iws2_430.jpg
L.A. Confidential @ 10:
http://sirocco.accuweather.com/iwxpage/adc/popup/iws3_430.jpg
L.A. Confidential @ 11:
Gore sure has been quiet lately.
Lady MacCheney.
With her hubby working for Clinton it puts a whole new spin on the Odd Couple.
Cowboy Bob from Austin @ 8:
Exactly and well stated.
Dan Savage had a good quote on Bill Maher last night about this controversy. To paraphrase, Savage noted that Huckabee doesn't think it's OK to for people outside the state to tell South Carolinians what to so with their flags, but it's OK for out-of-staters to tell Massachusetts what to do with their fags. They bused in Southerners by the bus load to protest same-sex marriage in Massachusetts. Huck Fuckabee.
L.A. Confidential @ 12:
Has anyone ever explained to you the difference between climate and weather? What does this have to do with Huckabee?
Not Fuck Huck! I Like Mike! He will destroy the Reagen Republican coalition like no other. Rove managed to get the Christian right to vote for corporatists. Now the Christian right has one of their own true believers. What's that I hear? The Republican Party splintering.
Marcus Aurelius @ 16:
God's responsible and Huck talks to him?
There is a very simple test that proves what the rebel flag has come to represent. Place a large rebel flag decal in your rear car window then drive the back streets of any large city in the United States. The slower you drive, the sooner the answer will be provided.
L.A. Confidential @ 13:
Where have you been??? These two have been polar opposites politically FOREVER. They met and fell in love as adversaries on the campaign trail ions ago. I find it fascinating and inspirational that two so vocal and opinionated (with a healthy dose of arrogance) personalities can have such a successful marriage, raise children together, and not change who they are fundamentally as people.
They both love this country and respect the other's intelligence and opinion no matter how virulently they disagree on issues. I think we can learn something from them on this account.
Maxson @ 15:
Love it,...awesome! Gotta keep calling 'em on their hypocrisy...
Freakin' Christianists! let's love one another until they refuse to live in our little box, and then we'll demonize them. Huck wants to change the Constitution to make sure we follow along.
Speaking as a lefty great grandson of a confederate soldier, my reaction is mixed. Simply as abstract art, the Buddhist swastika and the stars and bars are quite pretty. It's obviously the historical associations that cause trouble; indeed, are these days employed to cause trouble. My ancestor didn't go to war to defend slavery, but to defend his homeland from a northern invasion. The poor white southerners' economic interest was against slavery, whether they knew it or not, just as those Carolina textile workers are hurt by foreign sweatshop labor. Let's not forget this war to end slavery (perhaps the greatest evil in US history), was not framed as such until Lincoln made it so after Gettysburg. He was fighting to hold together the Union. Apart from some activists, the North had no love for the negro. I learned that long after the war, when I moved to Boston in 1976. Let's not pretend this was all black and white, if you'll forgive that metaphor in this context. Look to Iraq for a more recent example of national defense against invasion framed by propaganda as sheer evil doing.
My ancestor fought and suffered under that flag to defend his homeland, and merits honor for doing so. I don't doubt he was terribly racist, like most of his culture, and that of the northern soldiers. That doesn't seem to me to be sufficient reason to deny or denigrate what he did, by banning that flag. That said, I think it's also deplorable our worst social elements have appropriated that symbol to celebrate their hatred. Let's ignore them, deny them that chain yanking power, and wait for them all to die away. They lost. Let's move on to other issues.
A fellow in our nation once said "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Thomas Jefferson, I Believe. He wasn't talking about only "politically correct" statements.
Last time I checked, this was still SUPPOSED to be a "free country". I hate George Bush, his war, and his whole lying cheating slimy crew, but I WILL maintain that I have the right to hang whatever piece of cloth I want to, anywhere on my property, and if you don't like it, or believe that it "stands" for something you don't happen to like, TOO BAD! The downside of freedom is that there will always be somebody saying or doing something you don't happen to like. Live with it.
Too bad Huckleberry is driving down the road to the trailer park these days.
Makes him less likely to fuck things up in a serious way later in the thug death march. He'll be as tiny as Guiliani soon. Guess he'll have to leave the heavy crazy lifting to Mitt and his magical underwear.
Marcus Aurelius @ 16:
1. Yes I know the difference between climatic and weather science and theory.
2. I could care less about Huck he's not worth my time.
Bonus Answer #3. Staying completely on TOPIC is for robots.
Many a free black and Slave died side by side with white troops proudly defending that flag and their homeland from Northern invasion.
It ain't no Yankee's business.
Renegade Mom @ 20:
Actually they are living proof it is all about maintaining the Status Quo at whatever cost is necessary.
Sounds like it's about time to grease the cannon wheels on the old town green, and to float "Old Ironsides" out into the harbor for sea trials. We gotta finish the job for Honest Abe. This just might be the jobs program we need here at home to turn the economy around for the middle class and the poor. Let's give Huck and his minions a one way ticket to the Promised Land!
Donaldd @ 26:
LOL!!! Many a free black and slave died defending the stars and bars?? No, No, don't take my chains off. Whip me, whip me. Who's gonna pick Massa's crops and rape my sister?? Yankee go home!
Huck will show them how to party Leviticus style
" I find it fascinating and inspirational that two so vocal and opinionated (with a healthy dose of arrogance) personalities can have such a successful marriage, raise children together, and not change who they are fundamentally as people."
It convinces me that neither one of them actually holds the positions they claim to and both are totally unprincipled. How could one "fall in love" with someone whose view of the world is completely repugnant to you? It's one thing to have differences of opinion, married people don't agree on everything. But their professed world outlooks are mortal enemies.
And what do they tell their children?
Black people are inferior. No, they're not!
Of course, you can play with Fernando. No,Latins are dirty and probably here illegally!
Recycle the newspaper! Don't bother!
What on earth can they talk about?
There is NO WAY I could even be attracted to a racist, homophobic, war-mongering, xenophobic, kisser of Bush ass. And I wouldn't expect one to find me the least bit appealing.
What phonies.
Bored,
The issue is apparently important enough to conservatives in South Carolina that candidates for President campaigning in their state should express their views of the matter.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that the federal government remove, or direct the state of South Carolina to remove the flag. Well, maybe there are a couple of people who think that should happen, maybe even a couple on here. But mostly, it's about how you feel about whether the state ought to be flying that flag on its Capitol grounds.
The point is, the issue is important for South Carolina conservatives, and of course, for black people in South Carolina. Candidates should say how they feel about it, if they are campaigning in that state. Huckabee's rhetoric is shameless, since the idea that the feds would force South Carolina to lower the flag seems pretty far-fetched. He riles up the crowd by showing tacit support, but doesn't say what he thinks about the flag being flown in that manner.
The issue is, do candidates think the state of South Carolina should keep the flag up, or take it down. The symbolism of the issue is important enough to take a stand on. But the issue is not about infringing on free speech. It's about using ours to say that South Carolina ought not fly that flag on the statehouse grounds.
Just because the feds won't force South Carolina to do one thing or another with their flags, that doesn't mean that candidates should be only silent or supportive, because it's an important human issue.
Donaldd @ 26:
The North invaded Africa?
capnmike @ 23:
You have the right to do that.BUT. Others have the right to think You iggerent. So,you'll just have to live with That.
(disclaimer : i'm german.) your civil war started out as a tariff conflict und evolved into a secession movement. whenever people state that "Lincoln freed the slaves" they forget to add that this edict involved only the slaves of the south, not that of the north. it was an economical sanction.
p.s. : hitler ripped the nazi "Hakenkreuz" symbol off the buddhist swastika, but it's not the same, it's the mirror image. so display the buddhist swastika all you want. ^^ if you need to know what people think about the nazi symbol, ask a Hell's Angel. they don't display it anymore after their german chapter asked them not to.
Gee, using the metaphor of sticking a flag pole up somebody's rectum is imagery any good Christian pastor like Huck would use. Huck is a freak. A useful and amusing freak at this point, but I would definitely leave the U.S. if he became president.
I think Americans need to stop acting like the civil war was all about flags. You can't censor a national flag just because the country in question practiced slavery. And it IS a national flag, of a nation founded on a variety of principles. But none of them was "fuck the darkies." The Confederate States wasn't a country that set out to be malicious or greedy at the expense of another race. It's just that one of the issues they faced was the potential abolition of slavery. And if you think the North abolished slavery because they were just plain nicer to black people than their southern counterparts, you are sadly mistaken. No-one fought the war because they thought black people deserved a right to equality and liberty.
You can't look at the confederate flag and think it has any more of a tarnished history than the one so proudly flown from every government building in America today. Let them have their flag. Modern racist bigots won't be against using the other one to represent their cause if they have to. Now, how about we look at an issue that's actually remotely important?
Mattastic,
I think it's fair to say that the North was not the angelic savior of the slaves that they are sometimes made out to be.
I also think it's fair to say that legions of confederate soldiers were probably fighting because they saw themselves as defending their homelands.
BUT, the "powers to be" in the South were clearly fighting to preserve the institution of slavery, since slavery was so important to the Southern economy. You can take a peak at Mississippi's official statement of secession, for evidence of this, if you like.
Mattastic @ 37:
The North forced them into defending their being "malicious or greedy at the expense of another race."
well, it took me a little while to make certain what huckabee was actually trying to tell the voters what intended use he was recommending for their confederate flag, but after carefully parsing his comments here it is:
"In fact,” he said, “if somebody came to Arkansas and told us what to do with our flag, we’d tell them what to do with the pole; that’s what we’d do.”
==
"i suggest that we tell people who come to arkansas, and south carolina just how wonderful we've found our flags can be for those of the enema fetish alternative lifestyle"
Amazing.
The continued bigotry from Northerners towards Southerners is still astounding. The civil war, and the resulting split of the country (digested down to the Confederate Flag) boiled down to political favoritism and industry. Slavery was a horrible part of the history, but it's nonsensical to think that the institution of slavery would have remained in the confederacy. There were plenty of opponents of slavery in the confederate government and the confederacy would have abolished it as it modernized.
Basically, the Stars and Bars mean more to the people who aren't narrow minded and bigoted about "Southerners". It's funny how often times the same people who don't think the government should be involved in things like "Flag Burning" and "Gay Marriage" think that the status of the confederate flag should be an issue for the federal government to consider.
Bored @ 1:
The will of the majority should not be a tool of oppression for the minority.
Do you think that Black South Carolinians wanted to retain this symbok of "heritage"?
And , yes, the CSA flag is a symbol of heritage. But it is a heritage of slavery, misery and hate.
Want to read something really scary about Huckabee? Read this Salon article.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2008/01/18/huckabee/
“In fact,” he said, “if somebody came to Arkansas and told us what to do with our flag, we’d tell them what to do with the pole; that’s what we’d do.”
That deals with the pole, sir, but what about the flag? When some damned Yankee says the confederate flag isn't fit to wipe their Yankee ass, will you be saying "Oh yes it is!"
Palooka @ 41:
How long would you be willing to be a slave to another man while waiting for the forces of modernity to free you? A month? A year? The lifetime of the child you would never see again?
Your beloved confederate flag is a symbol of a time when my people could be bought and sold. Don't claim bigotry as the reason for my hatred of your symbols.
Palooka @ 41:
Nobody is taking away your confederate flags, or even intends to. As for the right to burn it, it has no feelings or inherent worth. Unlike the constitution and its protection of homosexuals, which the southern lunatic fringe cares less for (then the cloth of the flag).
Palooka,
What amazes me is how you could overlook the fact that the candidates (of either party) are not proposing that the federal government forcibly remove the flag, but rather people consider it an important enough issue for candidates to express their views on.
When looking for a President, people often wonder about their values, and this issue is one where the candidates can express their values about an issue important to many South Carolina residents.
If this isn't specific enough for you, the people who are opposed to the Federal Government getting involved in Flag Burning or Gay Marriage are not necessarily proposing the forced removal of the any flags. I bet you could get many left-of-center candidates to say that they personally oppose flag burning, but don't think the government should prevent it. Surely you see the comparison...
erm, actually, many slave-owners in the south *had* already abolished slavery ... out of business reasons. you see, slaves have rights. they are not free, but they have the right to food, shelter, and medicine, even if they're too young or too old to work. but if you set them free, you only have to pay them for actual work and you can bill them (and their young and their old) for food, shelter, medicine ... ain't capitalism great ?
If he's so anti-gay how come he knows about our thing for flag-poles?
I have no problem with the Stars and Bars being flown on private property. However, the CSA was defeated and flying its flag from a government building is a problem. It's illegal in Germany to fly the swastika anywhere, but were it not, can you imagine the outrage if it were flown over a school or post office in Bavaria?
I truly hope Huckabee is nominated by the Repubs. It would fracture the party like nothing else. Even Limberger is having a cow about the possibility. LOL
yellow dog @ 50:
Amen. If Americans have not been dumbed down enough to elect him in the general election, then I agree completely. But that is a very big IF.
Otay @ 46:
i don't believe that the south really has any poorer understanding of the first amendment issue vs. the flag burning issue than the northern states.
neither truely realizes where the power of the flag derives from, which is the constitution, and that the flag symbolizes the rights, liberties, and freedoms that our people have so struggled for over the last 2 plus centuries that flow from that constitution.
no constitution no flag.
the flag is not our most important binding symbol, our constiution is.
For the vast majority of Southerners, the Confederate flag has NOTHING to do with racism--just as the Civil War was not about slavery, but about states' rights. (REmember, Lincoln said he wouldn't free any slaves if that would save the Union, or he'd free them all--his goal was unity, NOT the end of slavery. That was a political move.)
Many of us Southerners believe that the Civil War was the end of the "United" States because it established the federal as the only sovereign power (despite the rights given to the STATES by our Constitution). So many of us see the Confederate flag as a symbol of an era when states had a say in the "United" States.
Anybody who complains about the Confederate flag should be freaking out about the thousands of Mexicans who rally in support of open immigration while waving MEXICAN flags. At least the Confederate flag once flew over a portion of this nation.
Still, Huckabee is even worse for America that Dubya. Huckabee is more ignorant, more religious, and less competent than Dubya. Huckabee is a Christofascist and must be blocked from any higher office.
fuckabee is just another gop reichwingbastard like bush/cheney who will do anything
to get into office and then will FUCK EVERYONE over for his religious views.
his image of god needs to get flushed down the toilet.
Should I be surprised that a preacher or pastor or whatever would tell someone what to do with the pole. Sounds kinky to me.
Mary Matalin bore children?
I'd like my fellow southerners to take a breath here and ease off on the Confederate flag issue. In the beginning world of the colonial South, slavery was a global condition of people, as was indenture, and freedom. The South's wealth was bound up in land, agriculture and slaves. That this was not racist in the beginning is attested to by the number of free blacks, a small few of whom numbered among the largest slave owners. Over time, and as the modern world emerged, slavery became viewed for what it was, one race exploiting another, backed up by law and violence. The South's response was to turn slavery into a race-based condition not a social one. Obvious examples were the efforts to re-enslave or drive out any free blacks in the South: It is a fact that free, slave-owing blacks were run out of South Carolina. It is true that Confederate soldiers and Southern people struggled with honor and sacrifice, but our cause was not just. In losing the war, South Carolina, and the other southern states re-entered the union by becoming members of the Federal Government against whom we fought. Flying
Confederate flags over public buildings under the conditions of reentry is equivalent to treason. Flying Confederate flags by private people is a question for each individual. If it were up to me and a license could be had on it, the right to fly the Confederate flag would be restricted to descendants of soldiers or govenment officials and its use regulated by decisions of the descendants.
The flag of traitors.
The South killed far more Americans than terrorists ever will.
Looks like we missed one, asshole.
Sorry folks, I was away, but I wanted to respond to a few things:
Clevenative@7:
Bored: I suppose that if the local German club in your town wanted to fly the Swastika as part of their “heritage”, you would have no trouble with that either?
Of course I would have a problem w/it, but paraphrasing Voltaire, I would defend to the death their right to (fly) it. Same w/Nazis marching on Skokie, etc. If losers want to make noise, fine. I do not fear their symbolism, because my rationality is far more powerful, and I have confidence that my thoughts and perspectives are better than theirs and will win in any open marketplace of ideas.
Shannon@42:
The will of the majority should not be a tool of oppression for the minority.
Do you think that Black South Carolinians wanted to retain this symbok of “heritage”?
And , yes, the CSA flag is a symbol of heritage. But it is a heritage of slavery, misery and hate.
I would argue that the flag has multiple symbolism and meanings depending on who sees it. Yeah, I don't think it's appropriate to be flown by governments because it's so highly offensive to many people- but a state speaks for its citizens and has to be more careful in what it endorses. I'm more responding to the notion that non-governmental INDIVIDUALS should be somehow blocked from displaying it- in advance. I am only saying for the right of whomever wants to fly it that they be allowed to do so, even though it IS very offensive to some, in much the way I would argue that very offensive speech (as in words) should also always be permitted to be spoken.
Jay J@32
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that the federal government remove, or direct the state of South Carolina to remove the flag. Well, maybe there are a couple of people who think that should happen, maybe even a couple on here. But mostly, it’s about how you feel about whether the state ought to be flying that flag on its Capitol grounds.
Point well-taken. But yeah, I do think some people are actually talking about banning the flag, etc. It is illegal, for example, to display a burning cross on your own property in VA. While obviously this is a heinous, racist symbol with a despicable past in history as a tool of intimidation, I think the Supreme Court's ruling that ANY symbol (or form of speech) can be banned as a prima facie threat or form of intimidation outside of context is not a good thing. (is any burning crossed object illegal to display?) You could start applying this logic to the confederate flag and lots of other historical symbols, and although I understand the visceral repulsiveness of such symbols, I just don't think America should go down that road...
B
Hi Bored,
Your point is well taken as well.
I count myself as someone who would oppose forcible removal of that flag by the federal government. I think, legally speaking, it is an issue for the residents of South Carolina to work out.
But I feel compelled to add: I think they should take the flag down.
"we’d tell them what to do with the pole; that’s what we’d do.”
The Huckster
Where is this commandment in the Bible.
I say we HANG THE HUCK AND THE CHUCK FROM A POLE.
STARS AND BARS SHOULD RUN OVER BY A CAR.
I left out something.STARS AND BARS SHOULD BE RUN OVER BY A CAR.
Huckabee,take that pole and stick it IN YOUR ASSHOLE.
I GOT YOUR SOUTHERN PRIDE RIGHT HERE,HUCKABEE.
I hope your daughter,sticks a LARGE BLACK POLE IN HER HOLE. Then nine months later,OUT COMES A BLACK BABY, OUT OF HER HOLE.
Feel free to hang the Confederate Flag on your private property, but before you place it on a public building not dedicated to Confederate history or the Civil War think to yourself; would you be happy if you woke up the next morning and found that someone had hung Nazi Germany's flag over the nearest courthouse? Would you want your kids to say allegiance to the flag of the Soviet Union? And even if you think that the Confederate flag is an exception to that, then at least have the decency to hold the issue to a referendum vote in South Carolina and let the people decide whether or not that flag belongs on publicly-owned properties.
Why don't they just fly a white flag and be done with it? It's at least a slightly more universal code for surrender -- plus, ya know, it's white...
RE: Huckabee’s rhetoric is shameless, since the idea that the feds would force South Carolina to lower the flag seems pretty far-fetched.
BS. Huck is right! did you watch Bill Maher friday? All those people from california acting like the flag only represents racism. yeah maybe to them out there in california. to huckabee and other people from the south it represents something else. Huck is not a racist. Also Bill Maher calling people 'fags' is offensive...huckabee never saying the word fag shows that Maher is the one being the asshole.
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