depressing.

An analysis published in the New England Journal of Medicine suggests that studies of antidepressants that had positive results were more likely to be published in medical journals compared with those that had negative or questionable results.

Are you claiming that this is an evidence of bias? You do understand that this is the same argument global warming denialists use about climate change papers. Why do you want to perpetuate this frame?

The question is, why were the negative results rejected? What were the complaints by the review board? Is there a pattern there, and if so is it justified? Unless you look at this, this is a content-free post.

Anti-depressants and other pharmaceutical drugs literally ruined my life. I was on them since childhood and only recently stopped taking them after my doctor kept changing them around and adding new ones with increasing frequency. I was sleepless, agitated, etc. on these drugs and the doctor kept adding new ones to combat the side effects of the others. It has taken my brain almost a year to slowly recover and start to get my personality back. Looking back, it was a huge mistake to have believed in the bullshit. You get on one of these drugs and you end up on five more due to crazy side effects while Big Pharma keeps getting the BIG $$$$

Keep in mind, these doctors get huge kickbacks and they don't even understand how these drugs truly affect the brain. Especially long term.

Ever wonder what Britney Spears is on? Funny how she keeps testing positive only for pharmaceutical drugs.

we need a REAL FDA...

in a somewhat related item (our health):

Justices to Hear Cigarette, Drug Cases
Washington Post - 9 hours ago
By Robert Barnes The Supreme Court yesterday agreed to decide whether tobacco companies can be sued in state courts for deceptive advertising of "light" cigarettes and if drugmakers should be protected from some patient lawsuits.
Supreme Court Grants Appeal By Philip Morris in Lights Case Wall Street Journal
Supreme Court to consider shield for drug, cigarette firms Los Angeles Times

gee, i wonder what will come of this?

This is good news for Tom Cruise and the rest of the Scientologists who reject psychiatry. KSW!

Zoloft Nation. No wonder no one gets out in the streets and brings it to the leaders anymore.

-GSD

gg @ 10:

"An analysis published in the New England Journal of Medicine suggests that studies of antidepressants that had positive results were more likely to be published in medical journals compared with those that had negative or questionable results."

Um, keep in mind this analysis doesn't necessarily imply any conspiracy. Journals are peer-reviewed by other researchers, which means that the 'negative' and 'questionable' results may have been deemed flawed for valid scientific reasons.

To put it another way, using my field of physics, I'm sure a study would show that 99% of all published papers on quantum mechanics confirm the theory at this stage, while a significant number of papers (mostly by crackpots) that claim to 'disprove' the theory don't get accepted. This isn't a 'conspiracy', it's reality: quantum mechanics is a valid theory, and the only way to 'find' a major hole is to make mistakes.

That isn't to say that it can't be a conspiracy concerning antidepressants, but that the information given doesn't automatically prove that it is...

He's right, insofar as that is concerned. Scientific peer review at its best chooses evidence based on methodology that is consistent. Whether the theory matches up with reality...... Scientists are human, including doctors. Mistakes happen.

Has nothing to do with journal Funding. Everything to do with who the reviewers are on the studies.

Life without drugs is looking better and better. I guess I should stop.

Just Say No @ 5:

I think vrk should have read your post.

Dutch Delight @ 4:

This is not new, good thing they are researching it further.

No it's not new. Things have been happening like this for years. Perhaps in this country since Industry became a real live person and had the rights of a person.

Untill we put industry under the the government and under us as citizens we will have sometimes needless items put out only to enrich Industry.

Do you all think that these compounds need to go out to everyone who has seen a commercial then hasselled her or his Doctor. The Doctors can't control it and the Drug companies won't control it so our government must. Take commercials off the air, it was illeagel in America untill the Reagan years to advertise a medicine. That's a good start. Who do you think pays for those ads? I think there are only one or two other nations in the industrialized nations that allows ads in the market place for the ultimate consumer for drugs. we should be like an industrialized once in a while, thats what we were once.

The findings showed that 94 percent of all published trials appeared to have positive results, while FDA reviews determined that 51 percent of all trials, both published and unpublished, had positive outcomes.

Oh great. So antidepressants have a ~50/50 chance of working... heads it works, tails it makes things worse. I'd rather take my chances to Vegas, thank you very much.

Anti-depressants? Hmmm...no surprise really. Doctors have always pushed miracle drugs thanks to some nice kickbacks from the pharmaceutical companies. I had a doctor years ago that always gave away any "new" cough syrups as the latest "miracle"....lol...they usually did squat, but that never stopped him!

Walker @ 3:

The question is, why were the negative results rejected? What were the complaints by the review board? Is there a pattern there, and if so is it justified? Unless you look at this, this is a content-free post.

one must always report unfavourable results. that's how science works! having a hypothesis shot down in the face of indisputable data is part of the process of discovery. you aren't allowed to report only the findings that agree with your hypothesis!

my guess is: money is at work here, and it is subverting science.

It's a little hard to believe that half the data qualified as outliers. That would be more laughable than the Laffer curve. Drug companies have been falsifying data for over twenty five years. Fucking worthless Red Ink Ronnie is responsible for this. Deregulation hit the FDA to the point where they think the ONLY dangerous drugs are pot, acid and mushrooms. Everything else is A-OK, as long as Merck, Pfizer and SmithKlineFrenchBeechamGlaxoWelcome get their dividends fo' d' massa.

Steven Dubovsky MD (THE mood disorder expert in the u.s.) has said the following: "We don't know how these drugs work, it's like kicking a television. They work temporarily and then new combinations must be tried".

From the time my son was in kindergarden I was PRESSURED to put my son on a course of, first Ritalin (every parent conference through 4th grade, the school psychologist said HIS daughter did great on it), then they said he should be on antidepressants until he went on to middle school.
I NEVER GAVE IN. My son was fine at home. Never had a problem concentrating or had temper problems or other behavior problems AT HOME. But he grew to resist GOING TO SCHOOL because of these assholes who thought nothing of prescribing psychiatric drugs to young children and teenagers. Many of my son's friends did take these drugs and MOST had violent episodes and thoughts of suicide.
One of my son's friends was on both Prozac and Acutane (for acne). He actually said to me one day, "If you knew the kind of thoughts I have you wouldn't let me in your house". Today at age 20 he shows he has MISSED DEVELOPMENTAL STEPS, is socially undeveloped, cannot maintain friendships nor has ever gone out with a girl. He's a good-looking robust guy who runs from relationships and just doesn't know how to relate to other people, and spends ALL of his free time at the computer.

Well, fortunately my son has never had to take any of these POPULAR drugs. But the schools made both of us feel like shit losers for not doing so. He just turned 20, attends college and has had a successful relationship just short of two years and is sought out for friendships. Sure, he's had his problems and rebellions, but they are human and not DRUG INDUCED.

This makes me want to start drinking and smoking again.

unanimous wrote: "one must always report unfavourable results. that’s how science works! having a hypothesis shot down in the face of indisputable data is part of the process of discovery. you aren’t allowed to report only the findings that agree with your hypothesis!"

Not if the 'unfavorable' results are done using poor methodology. That's why there is a peer-review process. Plenty of utter nonsense and shoddy research is submitted to the journals. Peer-review is present to filter out research that is demonstrably poor.

Without further information, the NEJM article's observations could be applied to almost any scientific result. As a (hypothetical) for instance, "100% of published astronomy suggests that the Earth is not the center of the universe, as opposed to 90% of the total number of articles written." (The other 10% being biblical geocentrists.) Would such an observation represent a conspiracy against the geocentrists, or just an observation by the referees that their work is nonsense?

Again, this doesn't mean there isn't something fishy going on in the case of antidepressants, but it also doesn't mean there is.

Matthew @ 16:

That really is to bad. I do have a question though, do any of you know if the drug Aderall, which is prescribed commonly for ADHD, is an anti depressant? If not, have any of you heard about it, use it, know people who use it? I am curious about this drug and the post kind of sort of gave me a chance to toss the question out there.

Thanks...

www.HyerStandard.com

It's not an AD, it helps with tiredness and concentration. I know many overachieving college students who use it recreationally.

bob@34, good for you, man. Even good, intelligent doctors are on autopilot including our own, a personal friend for 33 years. I avoid going unless there is no other choice.
A CLIENT of mine, a young doctor with Kaiser called me after she had surgery and was panic-stricken and disassociating. "What's happening to me!".....
She was given post-op a newer antibiotic taken only once a day (starts with a "Z"). I told her to read the product flier and sure enough her experience was a "possible" side effect.

Well friends, her experience is way commonplace. Just trust YOURSELF. The FDA is NOT your friend.

The European figured this out a while ago. They did not allow SSRI's (Zoloft, Prozac, etc) to be prescribed to children under 18. Then they raised it to 25. Now they are considering 30. I think the trend here states pretty clearly that they shouldn't be used at all unless in a clinical setting. I can tell you from personal experience and watching friends and family that they do not do what they claim.

Oh and did you know that most all of the school, mall shooters in the last 20 years were on one type of SSRI or another?

dguller @ 36:

If you actually read the NEJM article, the authors do not say that the drugs do not work.

First, they actually say that repeated meta-analyses have demonstrated that they are all better than placebo (p. 259), but that the DEGREE of superiority has been inflated by the published literature, which exaggerates the effect size.

Second, if you look at the table on page 257, then you see that some antidepressants have little or no FDA-reported negative results (e.g. escitalopram, duloxetine, prozac, paxil CR, and effexor XR).

Third, the antidepressants that have the most conflicting results are never used as first-line medications (e.g. wellbutrin and mirtazapine), and their lesser efficacy is one of the main reasons. The first-line medications, with the exception of zoloft, actually come across quite well, with around an artificial 10% increase in effect size in the published literature.

This just shows the importance of actually reading research articles intelligently and not mindlessly reading sensationalizing headlines. These medications are very helpful for millions of people, and although the prescribing practices of some physicians and business practices of some corporations are highly suspect, the research speaks for itself.

Anti depressants are a sham. When Zoloft first came out, it was stated that it would only have to be used for 9 to 12 months, then the chemical imbalance would be corrected. Then it became you have to use this the rest of your life if you want to be happy.

We are being lied to by the pharmaceutical companies and the FDA and you will believe anything they tell you.

I think everyone needs to take one of each of the pharmaceuticals that are advertised on television every day for the rest of their lives in order to stay alive and be happy.

curtilingus @ 43:

dguller @ 36:

Anti depressants are a sham. When Zoloft first came out, it was stated that it would only have to be used for 9 to 12 months, then the chemical imbalance would be corrected. Then it became you have to use this the rest of your life if you want to be happy.

We are being lied to by the pharmaceutical companies and the FDA and you will believe anything they tell you.

The current guidelines state that antidepressants should be used for around one year for the first major depressive episode, and then slowly discontinued. If there are multiple major depressive episodes, then there is a high chance of relapse, and so people have to be on them for longer. Those are typically people who have a vulnerability to mood disorders whether through a positive family history or other factors. Just as there are some people who have pain symptoms that are relieved with a temporary use of analgesics, and then stopped, there are others who have chronic pain that require more long-standing use.

There's no need to be paranoid about all of this. There is evidence to look at and interpret appropriately. Yes, we have been lied to by corporations -- often -- but we have been lied to by anyone and everyone from time to time. The important point is to use your intellect, examine the evidence in a rational and not emotional fashion, and make a decision that is defensible.

Ghost Hacked @ 48:

Stick to pot.

I was on anti-depressants. Turns out I needed to change things in my life. Like taking control of it, and getting rid of bad influences around me. They did help short term. But only you are going to fix yourself long term.

Exactly. Antidepressants are not designed to solve all of life's problems for people who are depressed. Often, they have serious work to do with a psychotherapist or other trained professionals to help unlearn negative and destructive thoughts and behaviors that usually have contributed to their depression.

Medications are useful for people who have moderate to severe depression, because they are unable to do the work to help themselves until their mood has improved to a certain extent. That is why for severe depression, evidence shows that the best treatment is a combination of antidepressants and psychotherapy, and that for mild depression, psychotherapy is often enough.

The problem is that physicians are very busy and trained psychotherapists are in short supply, and so it becomes easy to prescribe a pill for all mood symptoms. This is inappropriate, and not what the evidence demands.

Medical Marijuana

The Drug War isn't about stopping drugs or drug use, it's about making sure all the drugs come from the right people. Always has been.

Even though it is less toxic to your body than water, the FDA classifies Cannabis as a Schedule 1 narcotic, the most dangerous class of drugs. They even include Hemp in this classification at the same time they note that hemp cannot be even be used as a drug.

There are many types and varieties of cannabis, each with their own medical benefit.

Cannabis Sativa varieties are used effectively by many patients with depression and bi-polar disorder. The "lazy stoner" phenomenon is a result of Prohibition, that limits the supply of Sativa varieties, and floods the market with Indica strains, that are good for Insomnia and muscle pain.

Currently, other countries like Israel, Spain, and the UK, have taken the lead on Cannabis research and developing new medicines from it. Israel uses it to treat their soldiers with PTSD, while the UK's GW Pharmecuticals has made a natural, non synthetic, oral spray to treat MS, and is currently testing their new diet drug made from cannabis. (anti-munchies)

But, don't take my word for it, do your own research and listen to what the Doc at GW has to say about potCannabis:

"The cannabis plant has 70 different cannabinoids in it and each has a different affect on the body," GW Managing Director Justin Gover told Reuters in a telephone interview.
"Some can stimulate your appetite, and some in the same plant can suppress your appetite. It is amazing both scientifically and commercially," he said.

http://www.obesitydiscussion.com/forums/diet-pills/cannabis-drug-may-hel...

Since the human body has it's own Endo-Cannabinoid system, Cannabis, should be regulated as a nutritional supplement, with citizens allowed to grow their own.

crazytown @ 50:

dguller@44, you said:
"Interesting. Do you know what doses they were on? For how long? What their compliance with medications was? Was there co-morbid substance abuse that interfered with the medications’ effectiveness? Did they have psychological problems before they started medications?
I guess what I’m trying to say is that there are so many confounding variables in what you’re describing that it is dogmatic to isolate just one factor as causative. Also, millions of people who are appropriately prescribed antidepressants are not sociopaths."

The most profound of curative agents: HUMAN WARMTH.

Absolutely. Empathy and compassion are essential to any therapeutic relationship with or without medications. Studies have shown that people who do not feel a close attachment and underlying trust and respect with their physician (or therapist or other healer) will often do worse than those who do feel that. It some how enhances the placebo effect as well as improves compliance with whatever the treatment is.

This drugged nation. Some of the illegal stuff is probably less harmful.

And to elaborate on our mis-guided "health care" - This just in:
Clowns scare kids

Anti-depressants are the clowns of medicine.

Recent study shows that consistent exercise is much more effective at treating depression than any modern anti depressants.

Paxil was prescribed to treat social anxiety disorder (otherwise known as being shy)

There is a black box warning on the medications you are defending stating that its use may CAUSE suicidal thoughts (which can be thoughts of murdering people as well).

It's worth listening to the europeans, and people who have taken the anti depressants. These things are dangerous and the last people who will tell you will be your doctor, pharmacist, and government.

Knockemstiff @ 52:

Serzone and Wellbutrin every day for 5 years now. I don't like them and I don't trust them.
I lose my disability insurance if I don't follow doctors orders. I don't have a life.

I hear you knockem. The people on this blog need to understand how these drug affect people. It is like an emotional limiter. Never too high, never too low or sad. It takes away your orgasm, it can keep you from properly grieving the loss a loved one.

These are a chemically induced emotional lobotomy. No one has any idea what there long term use will bring and we are bringing so many people into this experiment it scares me. What if the worst side effects are yet to be discovered?

hey... why no post? test...

curtilingus @ 58:

Knockemstiff @ 52:

Serzone and Wellbutrin every day for 5 years now. I don't like them and I don't trust them.
I lose my disability insurance if I don't follow doctors orders. I don't have a life.

I hear you knockem. The people on this blog need to understand how these drug affect people. It is like an emotional limiter. Never too high, never too low or sad. It takes away your orgasm, it can keep you from properly grieving the loss a loved one.

These are a chemically induced emotional lobotomy. No one has any idea what there long term use will bring and we are bringing so many people into this experiment it scares me. What if the worst side effects are yet to be discovered?

Serazone and Seraquil are also known to cause strokes.

lost in the netherland, i suppose...

my story: all at about the same time, my marriage ended, lost my dad - from emphysema - and knew i had to make a FINAL attempt to quit smoking... so i was on the welbutrin for 8-10 months (i forget) in '01-02...
oh, and there was that september thing... (i don't know how i didn't pick up the cigs again then)...

quitting smoking was the hardest thing i've ever done... welbutrin is the same as zoloft, the smoking cessation program drug...
i had no adverse or other side effects, but was glad to get off it when i did... it worked, for me...

I jumped off of my SSRI (selective seratonin reuptake inhibitor) about 3-4 months ago and

a) felt my proper sex drive return
b) have had thoughts of self-inflicted harm *vanish*
c) can't perceive any real difference in how I perceive the outside world

Obviously I'm a sample of just 1 person, but it shows that the most commonly prescribed drugs (being SSRI) don't work for everybody. On the other hand, there's this other horse pill I'm still taking called Bupropion and that one definitely helps lift me out of my doldrums.

It's your body and brain at stake. Whatever you do, don't let a general practitioner prescribe these kinds of drugs to you. See a counselor, figure out if a drug regimen is something you truly need, and take it from there. Had I done this in the first place, I would have gone from depression to normalcy in far less time.

welbutrin is the same as zoloft, the smoking cessation program drug…

No, Zoloft is an SSRI. Wellbutrin is the brand name for Bupropion, which is a completely different class of drug. See my post number 65 above.

welbutrin is the same as zoloft, the smoking cessation program drug…

There are two kinds of addiction; psychological and physiological. Psychologically speaking, it's easy to convince a depressed person to take a magic pill to make it all better. At least, that was my story.

The physiological come-down from my SSRI was horrible. Imagine 8 weeks of constant dizziness and so much weird pressure in your head that you can literally hear your eyes move around in your head. Ugh.

curtilingus @ 66:

Try Valium instead. Use it short term and you will be the same person after you stop.

Anyone else notice that the old school pharmaceuticals are better and safer? Cost less and do not have to "build up to a certain level" in your system. And it its obvious. They are not a pill you want to take for the rest of your life.

Please don't tell me they are addicting. The pharmaceuticals that have replaced them are recommended to be taken for ever. How much more addicting can you get than that?

Benzodiazepam, if you DO become addicted is dangerous to quit cold turkey. The convulsions have been known to cause spinal trauma and even death. Much worse than heroin. Having said that, Valium and Xanax CAN be useful for panic attacks and other acute disturbances. Using it as a daily regimen is fucking DANGEROUS.

crazytown @ 57:

dguller @ 53:

crazytown @ 50:

dguller@44, you said:
"Interesting. Do you know what doses they were on? For how long? What their compliance with medications was? Was there co-morbid substance abuse that interfered with the medications’ effectiveness? Did they have psychological problems before they started medications?
I guess what I’m trying to say is that there are so many confounding variables in what you’re describing that it is dogmatic to isolate just one factor as causative. Also, millions of people who are appropriately prescribed antidepressants are not sociopaths."

The most profound of curative agents: HUMAN WARMTH.

Absolutely. Empathy and compassion are essential to any therapeutic relationship with or without medications. Studies have shown that people who do not feel a close attachment and underlying trust and respect with their physician (or therapist or other healer) will often do worse than those who do feel that. It some how enhances the placebo effect as well as improves compliance with whatever the treatment is.

Now wait. Was your last sentence a clever sarcasm? I hope so!

Not at all. The placebo effect is not fake and should always be taken into consideration whatever therapeutic intervention is considered.

http://www.madinamerica.com/Mad%20In%20America/Home.html
Mad in America

TomR @ 67:

welbutrin is the same as zoloft, the smoking cessation program drug…

No, Zoloft is an SSRI. Wellbutrin is the brand name for Bupropion, which is a completely different class of drug. See my post number 65 above.

you are correct...
i was mistaken... the same drug that was advertized as a smoking cessation drug is/was ZYBAN...

jackpine savage @ 70:

When i was young i really enjoyed LSD. When i grew up, it turned out that i had the same issues with clinical depression that more than half of my family has had. (Now, i don't know, maybe the dosing made it worse.) Anyway, on two separate occasions i was convinced to go on a course of SSRI medication (Zoloft because it worked for my mother). The first time, i was in a bad way. It felt like i was tripping, but i couldn't be sure. I straightened out and went off the meds.

A few years later, i was in therapy...not in the worst way, but losing control of the situation and self-aware enough to see that. We decided to give Zoloft a try one more time. I monitored myself very closely. I told the therapist that from my long experience with LSD, i would describe Zoloft as the first hour or so of a trip...where things are moving from normal to abnormal. She told me i was crazy; i told her that i already knew that...it was why i was talking to her and taking the friggin' Zoloft.

Since my family's answer to any question has always been, "Look it up." That's what i did. As it turns out, the receptors affected by both LSD and SSRI's are the same. My conclusion is that the family of SSRI's are roughly equivalent to taking a very small dosage of LSD, every day. Is that good? I don't know. I don't mess with any of that stuff anymore, i figured out that adjusting my life to my brain was far more effective than adjusting my brain to my life.

I always knew acid was the answer, maaaaaannnnn. Someone I know experimented with SSRIs and mushrooms TOGETHER. Yikes. He got pretty out there in Zenville for a while. He came back though. Good thing I gave those things up YEARS ago. But, like you, I decided to arrange my life to suit my brain, rather than muck up my brain for what? The chance to live like an unfeeling zombie? No thanks. I'll deal with the mood swings and apologize to my friends in advance. Most of them understand.

rusty b. shakleford @ 75:

what a sad, crazy pathetic string we have going here. anti depresents have literally changed people's lives because FACT: they WORK. True depression isn't cause by the fact that you hate your job or you're in a bad relationship or your fat or all three. Clinical depression is caused by a chronic chemical imbalance in your brain.

Just like diabetics have to take insulin because their bodies require it. Well, maybe we should just tell them to buck up and stop being such pathetic weaklings. Change your life and stop using insulin!

Pathetic.

Well type one diabetes can be cured by a vegan diet and type two diabetes if caught early enough can reduce and or eliminate one's need for insulin. There are other approaches to diabetes management.

As far as depression goes, do you really think such a large segment of the population needs to be on anti psychotics? And what about the EU banning SSRI's to persons under 18 first, then 25. Are they all just mis guided and listening to hearsay?

Once again. These drugs may work for few. But they should be used in a clinical setting, with a small segment of the population for a generation an they should not be advertised as a product that will make you socially acceptable.

Well type one diabetes can be cured by a vegan diet and type two diabetes if caught early enough can reduce and or eliminate one’s need for insulin.

Um, no. Type two diabetes can be lessened by the use of a vegan diet, but type one requires insulin.

You just don’t get it. They work SOMETIMES. When they DON’T work, the consequences are often VERY serious. Fuck yer pathetic and raise you a you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about.

The same could be said for any medication. All the scare-mongering I've been reading here, however, is designed to tell people that they're doomed if they even consider taking anti-depressants, which is extremely irresponsible and what is 'pathetic'.

gg @ 82:

Well type one diabetes can be cured by a vegan diet and type two diabetes if caught early enough can reduce and or eliminate one’s need for insulin.

Um, no. Type two diabetes can be lessened by the use of a vegan diet, but type one requires insulin.

You just don’t get it. They work SOMETIMES. When they DON’T work, the consequences are often VERY serious. Fuck yer pathetic and raise you a you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about.

The same could be said for any medication. All the scare-mongering I've been reading here, however, is designed to tell people that they're doomed if they even consider taking anti-depressants, which is extremely irresponsible and what is 'pathetic'.

The commercials that advertise these chemicals are scare mongering, overstate the effectiveness, understate the side effects. To swallow their line without questioning it is extremely irresponsible. Why the hell should 10% of the population be on a chemical that wasn't around twenty years ago for a diseases that didn't exist 100 years ago?

How are your restless legs feeling?

hey! i forgot:

http://www.overdosedamerica.com/

gg @ 82:

Well type one diabetes can be cured by a vegan diet and type two diabetes if caught early enough can reduce and or eliminate one’s need for insulin.

Um, no. Type two diabetes can be lessened by the use of a vegan diet, but type one requires insulin.

You just don’t get it. They work SOMETIMES. When they DON’T work, the consequences are often VERY serious. Fuck yer pathetic and raise you a you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about.

The same could be said for any medication. All the scare-mongering I've been reading here, however, is designed to tell people that they're doomed if they even consider taking anti-depressants, which is extremely irresponsible and what is 'pathetic'.

My family's "family business" is medicine. My father was an anesthesiologist. His father was a surgeon, as was his father. My father's brother was a pharmacologist. My mother was a biologist who went into psychology. My mother's brother was a pathologist. Her father was a pharmaceutical salesman. I was the oldest son, and I was taught medicine, and especially the use of dangerous drugs at a young age. For certain reasons, mostly having to do with lies I KNEW fucking well were being told by the pharmaceutical companies, I became a musician and school teacher instead of a doctor. But unless you are a medical professional, I guarantee you I have FORGOTTEN more about drugs than you will ever know. The evidence for the efficacious use of psychotropic drugs is RIDDLED with failures. Pharmaceutical companies are EXACTLY like tobacco companies in their refusal to allow facts that contradict them to enter in. The argument was made above that this is the same argument global warming deniers use. The difference is that a climate scientist might be making tens of thousands a year trying to collect some data. A pharmaceutical executive makes tens of MILLIONS a year, dependent on what really amounts to a big shell game. The life expectancy hasn't increased much in the last 40 years, and in the US, it has actually declined slightly since then. If miracle drugs were working, how come this is? I don't have the answer, but I'm guessing (actually, I know full well from personal experience) that it's all a shell game. There have been no seriously important advances in medicine since the fifties. Oh, yeah, some diseases have been beaten back, but misuse has made antibiotics no longer the magic drug they were. ALL drugs will be misused this way. No exceptions. There are no miracles. Eat right, sleep, exercise, socialize, work. These are the elements of a happy life. SOME drugs work for SOME people SOME times. When psychotropics go bad they go bad in a BIG way. You aren't "doomed" if you consider them. Some people ARE helped by them for a while. But none have lasting positive effects. NONE.

I was going through a particularly rough time and sought the help of a psychiatrist.
Worst mistake of my life. After the first session he put me on antidepressants...throughout the course of therapy he kept changing them as well.
I resisted being on them, I needed some help getting through what I was going through, but psychiatrists don't care about what you're going through, all they want to do is
write their scripts.

The outcome of all of this is that I now cannot get health insurance. No insurance company will underwrite me because I have a history of antidepressant use. I have been without insurance now for almost 3 years. I have applied to every single company in my state, but each time they find out about the pills, I get rejected.

I haven't been on any antidepressants in years, I haven't seen a shrink in years (will never see a shrink again. Ever.)

This ordeal has really turned my thinking about the whole mental health care system in this country. Not to mention the health insurance business.

There are so many categories of people who cannot get any insurance. I used to think that the only people that couldn't get coverage were the ones who couldn't pay for it.

I can pay the premiums but just because some stupid doctor who refused to listen to me couldn't help himself from scribbling out the prescriptions, I cannot get health insurance.

I wish I knew where to turn.

jackpine savage @ 70:

When i was young i really enjoyed LSD...

A few years later, i was in therapy... I told the therapist that from my long experience with LSD, i would describe Zoloft as the first hour or so of a trip...where things are moving from normal to abnormal. She told me i was crazy;...

I can almost guarantee that your therapist has not ever done LSD and is logically unqualified to make any valid assessment of a comparison you might make to your past personal experiences.

The same argument can be made for cannabis usage. If a physician’s only knowledge of the effects of cannabis usage comes from government sponsored “studies” or “Reefer Madness” viewings, they can hardly be considered qualified experts on the subject.

Many people do not experience the exact same side effects of any drug. I for example, usually find it more difficult to get to sleep if under the influence of cannabis. My mind is far too active to allow me to sleep. The giddiness that some people experience from alcohol is absent in many others – personally, I find the effects of alcohol very depressing.

So, the acceptance of a “one size fits all” attitude is ludicrous for most any drug. Physicians need to listen to each patient individually and prescribe accordingly, instead of trying to dictate to the patient how this drug or that drug will make them feel - or assume the effectiveness of any drug will match the results of a study on any particular subset of patients.

My father was an anesthesiologist. His father was a surgeon, as was his father. My father’s brother was a pharmacologist. My mother was a biologist who went into psychology. My mother’s brother was a pathologist. Her father was a pharmaceutical salesman. I was the oldest son, and I was taught medicine, and especially the use of dangerous drugs at a young age. For certain reasons, mostly having to do with lies I KNEW fucking well were being told by the pharmaceutical companies, I became a musician and school teacher instead of a doctor. But unless you are a medical professional, I guarantee you I have FORGOTTEN more about drugs than you will ever know. The evidence for the efficacious use of psychotropic drugs is RIDDLED with failures.

Ah, a musician and school teacher is an expert on medication! My Dad worked in credit reporting, but I don't claim to be an expert in the field because of it. Also, again, you've got no actual evidence to back up your assertions! Here's a tip: don't use your credentials as 'proof' of your assertions unless you actually have some.

I agree with you gg.

Here's a link to the EU's banning of issuing anti depressants to children with their reasons why.

http://www.pharmacychoice.com/News/article.cfm?Article_ID=2076

Here is a link where pfizer admitting promoting anti depressants it knew were dangerous.

http://www.ahrp.org/infomail/04/05/16.php

Zoloft reduces bone density in women.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/07/11/arts/snvital.php

gg @ 94:

My father was an anesthesiologist. His father was a surgeon, as was his father. My father’s brother was a pharmacologist. My mother was a biologist who went into psychology. My mother’s brother was a pathologist. Her father was a pharmaceutical salesman. I was the oldest son, and I was taught medicine, and especially the use of dangerous drugs at a young age. For certain reasons, mostly having to do with lies I KNEW fucking well were being told by the pharmaceutical companies, I became a musician and school teacher instead of a doctor. But unless you are a medical professional, I guarantee you I have FORGOTTEN more about drugs than you will ever know. The evidence for the efficacious use of psychotropic drugs is RIDDLED with failures.

Ah, a musician and school teacher is an expert on medication! My Dad worked in credit reporting, but I don't claim to be an expert in the field because of it. Also, again, you've got no actual evidence to back up your assertions! Here's a tip: don't use your credentials as 'proof' of your assertions unless you actually have some.

Screw you dude. I still guarantee I know more about drugs than you. What the fuck are YOUR qualifications. I didn't say I was an expert, I said I was a VERY educated layman. I went to college and studied science, and stuff and had a childhood education in drugs that you simply can't imagine. CREDIT REPORTING???????? Let me tell you how it works. Pay your bills, your credit goes up. Don't pay your bills and your credit goes down. That's it. Period. DRUG COMPANIES LIE TO SELL THEIR PRODUCTS. Don't you fucking know that? Yes, the life expectancy went from about 45 to 72 between 1900 and 1965. It has NOT increased since then. The main causes of the increase were, in no particular order, INDOOR PLUMBING, understanding of the actions of microbes in the cause of the bulk of epidemiological disease, lessened infant mortality, more accurate surgical procedures for some disorders and antibiotics. My father was a doctor for 45 years. At the end of his life, he told me that of all the surgeries he had been involved in, VERY few ever saved a life. Actually the word he used was rarely.

Doctors are people. They make mistakes. When doctors make mistakes people die, so they try to make as few as possible, most of them are ethical and good people. But pharmaceutical salesmen are just that SALESMEN. They sell what they have using SALES techniques, NOT scientific information. I have WATCHED my uncle sell drugs to physicians who simply BELIEVED him. No research, they just believed him. My father, his BROTHER would not buy the same drug from him because he read the research. The drug was eventually pulled as too deadly to use (it was an anesthetic whose name I can't recall. Dad's dead so I can't ask him). Doctors, due to the ego stroking they all get from a young age, are VERY susceptible to sales pitches. They use drugs ALL THE TIME that they know NOTHING about except what the salesman told them. Don't believe me? Well, tough shit. Drugs are DANGEROUS friends. SOMETIMES they help. But go ahead, live with the consequences.

jr @ 99:

we need to ban drug company advertising and we need public financing of campaigns

I agree. Its ironic the drug companies have driven up the cost of advertising so much that candidates can barely afford to buy a decent spot.

That should help keep the people in power that support the pharmaceutical companies.

curtilingus @ 97:

Here's some evidence from tyhe second link above.

"Today's consumer protection lawsuit was filed in Superior Court in downtown Los Angeles (case number BC318871). The suit details Pfizer's actions and omissions that downplayed Zoloft's risks and exaggerate Zoloft's alleged benefits. Pfizer did so, the complaint alleges, by suppressing evidence concerning: (1) Zoloft's lack of efficacy compared to placebos in treating conditions for which Zoloft is prescribed; (2) Zoloft's propensity to induce withdrawal and dependency; (3) the risk of increased suicidal and violent impulses in adult, child and adolescent Zoloft users; and (4) Zoloft's causing other side effects such as convulsions and psychosis."

From a lawsuit in 2004. Pfizer plead guilty.

Stop defending them.

I wonder if more people have died by listening to lay relatives and friends giving them "medical" advice to oppose their physician's instructions compared to those who actually followed their doctor's instructions. I know that many medical complaints that I saw in the emergency room were due to patients who were not taking their medications properly or at all compared to those who were following their treatments properly.

The REAL CRIME is that DRUGS have been SUBSTITUTED for SOLVING THE DEPRESSION.

Yes .. depression USUALLY originates in UNRESOLVED CRISES ..

Like grief, or abandonment, or ..

And .. believe it or not .. counselling, self-analysis, the whole panoply of NON-DRUG THERAPIES WORK.

That's the REAL tragedy -- substituting drugs for solving the problem.

Of course, BIG PHARMA wouldn't be making a profit from people's misery, and that would violate their "code of ethics" ..

dguller @ 105:

curtilingus @ 97:

Here's some evidence from tyhe second link above.

"Today's consumer protection lawsuit was filed in Superior Court in downtown Los Angeles (case number BC318871). The suit details Pfizer's actions and omissions that downplayed Zoloft's risks and exaggerate Zoloft's alleged benefits. Pfizer did so, the complaint alleges, by suppressing evidence concerning: (1) Zoloft's lack of efficacy compared to placebos in treating conditions for which Zoloft is prescribed; (2) Zoloft's propensity to induce withdrawal and dependency; (3) the risk of increased suicidal and violent impulses in adult, child and adolescent Zoloft users; and (4) Zoloft's causing other side effects such as convulsions and psychosis."

From a lawsuit in 2004. Pfizer plead guilty.

Stop defending them.

I wonder if more people have died by listening to lay relatives and friends giving them "medical" advice to oppose their physician's instructions compared to those who actually followed their doctor's instructions. I know that many medical complaints that I saw in the emergency room were due to patients who were not taking their medications properly or at all compared to those who were following their treatments properly.

Gee, We all 'wonder'. Is wonder a scientific term? Which medications are you talking about? Were they medications for diabetes or blood thinners or did they have a medicine cabinet bulging and overflowing with a confusing and disgusting array of medications, some needed, many not needed at all with side-effects they ignored or were told to ignore or were just ignored so they stopped taking certain medications???
HUH?

You're losing your Professional tone and sounding more and more like a mere mortal who doesn't know shit.
I'll go with Bob@101 and his views any day of the week before buying your disintegrating arguments.

I'm not sure where to start with this. #110 - we give physicians too much power? What doesn't that mean? I'm a physician. I explain to each of my patients that I'm their adviser. They can do what they want.

One study means nothing. You have to look at the body of literature. What does the body of literature say?

Americans want something to make them feel better. We want to feel better now not in 3 months. What would you expect a family MD to do when a patient want him/her to give them something to make them feel better? So the physician says no - once, twice even 3 times. That physician will be blamed for being cold and callous. The patient will go to another physician until he/she gets something. This is a fact. It happens every day.

ecthompson @ 111:

I'm not sure where to start with this. #110 - we give physicians too much power? What doesn't that mean? I'm a physician. I explain to each of my patients that I'm their adviser. They can do what they want.

One study means nothing. You have to look at the body of literature. What does the body of literature say?

Americans want something to make them feel better. We want to feel better now not in 3 months. What would you expect a family MD to do when a patient want him/her to give them something to make them feel better? So the physician says no - once, twice even 3 times. That physician will be blamed for being cold and callous. The patient will go to another physician until he/she gets something. This is a fact. It happens every day.

Doctor, better cold and callous than do what you know is wrong. The cause of the patient trying to tell YOU what to prescribe is the advertising of drugs on television. I'm sure you are aware of more drugs than I that have been pushed by the pharmaceutical companies, with doctor after doctor believing the Abbot rep, because why would he lie? Those drugs turn out to be disasters. I don't know the stats on percentage of placebo effect "cures" but there are enough of them to suggest that some medicines have less efficacy than touted. Leeching comes to mind. I don't know your specialty and don't question that you know more in general about medicine than I, but as a fairly well educated layman, I KNOW that these new psychotropics have performed poorly enough to raise SERIOUS questions. And I personally know an internist group that dispenses psychotropics based on ONLY their understanding of internal medicine with no special training in brain chemistry or psychiatry. They BELIEVED the pharmaceutical companies when they told them that Seroquel or Depakote or Zoloft or Prozac had no negative side effects, as the anecdotes of violence and suicide mounted. Are you old enough to remember when you could buy benzedrine over the counter? It was an anti-histamine, given to children by pediatricians. Today, you can go to prison for life for TAKING amphetamine while pregnant. Anyway, first, cause no harm and I hope all your patients live past 80 due to your diligence in their care.

ISN'T I mean ISN'T

ecthompson @ 111:

I'm not sure where to start with this. #110 - we give physicians too much power? What doesn't that mean? I'm a physician. I explain to each of my patients that I'm their adviser. They can do what they want.

One study means nothing. You have to look at the body of literature. What does the body of literature say?

Americans want something to make them feel better. We want to feel better now not in 3 months. What would you expect a family MD to do when a patient want him/her to give them something to make them feel better? So the physician says no - once, twice even 3 times. That physician will be blamed for being cold and callous. The patient will go to another physician until he/she gets something. This is a fact. It happens every day.

Thanks for the other side of the societal coin. So you would be correct in telling them a given drug is questionable and therefore won't dispense it, and do it cheerfully!
I doubt you would actually permanently lose patients as you might fear.

bob @ 73:

curtilingus @ 66:

Try Valium instead. Use it short term and you will be the same person after you stop.

Anyone else notice that the old school pharmaceuticals are better and safer? Cost less and do not have to "build up to a certain level" in your system. And it its obvious. They are not a pill you want to take for the rest of your life.

Please don't tell me they are addicting. The pharmaceuticals that have replaced them are recommended to be taken for ever. How much more addicting can you get than that?

Benzodiazepam, if you DO become addicted is dangerous to quit cold turkey. The convulsions have been known to cause spinal trauma and even death. Much worse than heroin. Having said that, Valium and Xanax CAN be useful for panic attacks and other acute disturbances. Using it as a daily regimen is fucking DANGEROUS.

As both a former user of prescribed Valium and Xanax for severe anxiety, and a former heroin addict, I can tell you with the utmost certainty, you're full of shit.

I stopped taking both Xanax and Valium cold turkey, after almost three years of daily use with only mild side effects. Much later, I ended up using heroin to self medicate my severe anxiety.

For you to say Benzodiazapams are on par with heroin addiction, shows you have no experience with either. And as such should refrain from giving advice that is pulled out of thin air.

The reason they don't prescribe Valium or Xanax anymore is simple-they can charge more for their psychotropics. The patent ran out long ago for Valium, so it's now cheap as hell.

The excuse that Benzo's are addicting is bullshit, because the psychotropic drugs can't be stopped on a dime either. If the patient does stop cold turkey, they will have a severe freak-out and most likely end up in a mental ward (which happened to me twice, the first time was when I stopped taking Paxil and the second time was with Serazone). That sounds like addiction to me.

And the fact that most patients prescribed psychotropic drugs take them for years, and in fact may have take them forever. If that isn't addiction, I don't know what is.

Juba @ 119:

bob @ 73:

curtilingus @ 66:

Try Valium instead. Use it short term and you will be the same person after you stop.

Anyone else notice that the old school pharmaceuticals are better and safer? Cost less and do not have to "build up to a certain level" in your system. And it its obvious. They are not a pill you want to take for the rest of your life.

Please don't tell me they are addicting. The pharmaceuticals that have replaced them are recommended to be taken for ever. How much more addicting can you get than that?

Benzodiazepam, if you DO become addicted is dangerous to quit cold turkey. The convulsions have been known to cause spinal trauma and even death. Much worse than heroin. Having said that, Valium and Xanax CAN be useful for panic attacks and other acute disturbances. Using it as a daily regimen is fucking DANGEROUS.

As both a former user of prescribed Valium and Xanax for severe anxiety, and a former heroin addict, I can tell you with the utmost certainty, you're full of shit.

I stopped taking both Xanax and Valium cold turkey, after almost three years of daily use with only mild side effects. Much later, I ended up using heroin to self medicate my severe anxiety.

For you to say Benzodiazapams are on par with heroin addiction, shows you have no experience with either. And as such should refrain from giving advice that is pulled out of thin air.

The reason they don't prescribe Valium or Xanax anymore is simple-they can charge more for their psychotropics. The patent ran out long ago for Valium, so it's now cheap as hell.

The excuse that Benzo's are addicting is bullshit, because the psychotropic drugs can't be stopped on a dime either. If the patient does stop cold turkey, they will have a severe freak-out and most likely end up in a mental ward (which happened to me twice, the first time was when I stopped taking Paxil and the second time was with Serazone). That sounds like addiction to me.

And the fact that most patients prescribed psychotropic drugs take them for years, and in fact may have take them forever. If that isn't addiction, I don't know what is.

I do know lots of junkies and xanax users. Being a musician, drugs are an occupational hazard. I would never make less of the difficulty of kicking heroin, but I've seen people detox from it and certainly wouldn't want to myself, no fun. And you are right about the cheapness and patent loss and all of that. But benzos ARE addicting and a heavy habit CAN cause convulsions on cessation. I KNOW someone who died from it. I'm not saying it's universal, I just said it CAN happen and be careful. My point, further was that the NEW generation of psychotropics can cause VERY serious consequences on abrupt cessation. My suggestion was that people inform themselves of the potential consequences of ANY psychotropic drug they are going to use, regardless of how small the percentage is of the negative. What if the percentage of dead or enfeebled includes YOU?

Juba @ 119:

bob @ 73:

curtilingus @ 66:

Try Valium instead. Use it short term and you will be the same person after you stop.

Anyone else notice that the old school pharmaceuticals are better and safer? Cost less and do not have to "build up to a certain level" in your system. And it its obvious. They are not a pill you want to take for the rest of your life.

Please don't tell me they are addicting. The pharmaceuticals that have replaced them are recommended to be taken for ever. How much more addicting can you get than that?

Benzodiazepam, if you DO become addicted is dangerous to quit cold turkey. The convulsions have been known to cause spinal trauma and even death. Much worse than heroin. Having said that, Valium and Xanax CAN be useful for panic attacks and other acute disturbances. Using it as a daily regimen is fucking DANGEROUS.

As both a former user of prescribed Valium and Xanax for severe anxiety, and a former heroin addict, I can tell you with the utmost certainty, you're full of shit.

I stopped taking both Xanax and Valium cold turkey, after almost three years of daily use with only mild side effects. Much later, I ended up using heroin to self medicate my severe anxiety.

For you to say Benzodiazapams are on par with heroin addiction, shows you have no experience with either. And as such should refrain from giving advice that is pulled out of thin air.

The reason they don't prescribe Valium or Xanax anymore is simple-they can charge more for their psychotropics. The patent ran out long ago for Valium, so it's now cheap as hell.

The excuse that Benzo's are addicting is bullshit, because the psychotropic drugs can't be stopped on a dime either. If the patient does stop cold turkey, they will have a severe freak-out and most likely end up in a mental ward (which happened to me twice, the first time was when I stopped taking Paxil and the second time was with Serazone). That sounds like addiction to me.

And the fact that most patients prescribed psychotropic drugs take them for years, and in fact may have take them forever. If that isn't addiction, I don't know what is.

First off, I'm sorry to hear about your experiences. Second, it's "benzodiazepines" and "Serzone", diazepam is the compound name for valium and Serzone has gone the way of pondimun (thank god). Sorry for being picky but if you're going to make a strong argument, it should be accurate. As far as stopping on a dime, you've got that right! When I stopped taking Zoloft because of the side effects I spent the next week or so with the sensation of moving/motion while perfectly still. It sucked to be certain and it bothered me a lot, but then weeks after subtly slipped back into zombie-despair mode where I was before ever encountering an SSRI. If I'm an addict, so be it. It's better than living with a cloud over me and the hopelessness and despair which that particular cloud brings.

bilhelm-X @ 123:

Juba @ 119:

bob @ 73:

curtilingus @ 66:

Benzodiazepam, if you DO become addicted is dangerous to quit cold turkey. The convulsions have been known to cause spinal trauma and even death. Much worse than heroin. Having said that, Valium and Xanax CAN be useful for panic attacks and other acute disturbances. Using it as a daily regimen is fucking DANGEROUS.

As both a former user of prescribed Valium and Xanax for severe anxiety, and a former heroin addict, I can tell you with the utmost certainty, you're full of shit.

I stopped taking both Xanax and Valium cold turkey, after almost three years of daily use with only mild side effects. Much later, I ended up using heroin to self medicate my severe anxiety.

For you to say Benzodiazapams are on par with heroin addiction, shows you have no experience with either. And as such should refrain from giving advice that is pulled out of thin air.

The reason they don't prescribe Valium or Xanax anymore is simple-they can charge more for their psychotropics. The patent ran out long ago for Valium, so it's now cheap as hell.

The excuse that Benzo's are addicting is bullshit, because the psychotropic drugs can't be stopped on a dime either. If the patient does stop cold turkey, they will have a severe freak-out and most likely end up in a mental ward (which happened to me twice, the first time was when I stopped taking Paxil and the second time was with Serazone). That sounds like addiction to me.

And the fact that most patients prescribed psychotropic drugs take them for years, and in fact may have take them forever. If that isn't addiction, I don't know what is.

First off, I'm sorry to hear about your experiences. Second, it's "benzodiazepines" and "Serzone", diazepam is the compound name for valium and Serzone has gone the way of pondimun (thank god). Sorry for being picky but if you're going to make a strong argument, it should be accurate. As far as stopping on a dime, you've got that right! When I stopped taking Zoloft because of the side effects I spent the next week or so with the sensation of moving/motion while perfectly still. It sucked to be certain and it bothered me a lot, but then weeks after subtly slipped back into zombie-despair mode where I was before ever encountering an SSRI. If I'm an addict, so be it. It's better than living with a cloud over me and the hopelessness and despair which that particular cloud brings.

It's all a puzzle, and I really don't give a damn if I can't spell a given drug's trade name or know the exact chemical formulation. That's why God invented the PDR. That it's working for you is GREAT. I hope it works for you forever. Experience says it very well might not, so prepare yourself for Mr. Toad's Wild Ride if it turns sour on you. And KNOW that the pharmaceutical companies DO NOT know why some of these drugs "work" and will tell you so. And sometimes the doctor's pharm rep is a nincompoop. And sometimes, so is the doctor. And that is WITHOUT bad intent. Bad intent ups the ante further. I do hope your life is smooth and you experience what you want. Good luck.

ecthompson @ 111:

I'm not sure where to start with this. #110 - we give physicians too much power? What doesn't that mean? I'm a physician. I explain to each of my patients that I'm their adviser. They can do what they want.

One study means nothing. You have to look at the body of literature. What does the body of literature say?

Americans want something to make them feel better. We want to feel better now not in 3 months. What would you expect a family MD to do when a patient want him/her to give them something to make them feel better? So the physician says no - once, twice even 3 times. That physician will be blamed for being cold and callous. The patient will go to another physician until he/she gets something. This is a fact. It happens every day.

What I mean, Doctor, is that too many people put doctors on pedestals, and after enough time most doctors start believing they belong there.

You are correct that a huge part of our population wants the quick fix. They want the pill to make it better and 'now' is not quick enough.

They don't want to exercise or eat properly. They want the pill to fix it.

Well, it's up to you as the physician to educate them. If they go to a new doctor to get their pills,what do you care? Let them.

My internist is one of those rare docs who spends time to listen, never gives you the bum's rush and doesn't scribble on his pad for pills unless they are absolutely necessary.
Sometimes I think he'd rather cut off his right arm than prescribe drugs. He was TOTALLY against all the drugs that my ex shrink was prescribing for me. I was too...and I never wanted the pills that this guy was prescribing for me. I didn't need them.

But...I am guilty of putting him on that pedestal. I know better now...I've learned a lot.

Actually doc...you are WAY more than your patients' advisor. I find that tone completely arrogant and lacking in all compassion. Afterall, YOU are the one who went to medical school. We did not. We need to trust in your expertise.

We also need to be aware and be partners in our care, but you are waaaaaaay more than just an advisor. If that were true, I could go out and write myself a prescription for whatever ailed me just on your 'advice'.

Doctors need to be the ones to take the first step in stepping down off the pedestal.
You are not just advisor...you should be our partner and be able to give sage wisdom.

crazytown @ 109:

dguller @ 105:

curtilingus @ 97:

Here's some evidence from tyhe second link above.

"Today's consumer protection lawsuit was filed in Superior Court in downtown Los Angeles (case number BC318871). The suit details Pfizer's actions and omissions that downplayed Zoloft's risks and exaggerate Zoloft's alleged benefits. Pfizer did so, the complaint alleges, by suppressing evidence concerning: (1) Zoloft's lack of efficacy compared to placebos in treating conditions for which Zoloft is prescribed; (2) Zoloft's propensity to induce withdrawal and dependency; (3) the risk of increased suicidal and violent impulses in adult, child and adolescent Zoloft users; and (4) Zoloft's causing other side effects such as convulsions and psychosis."

From a lawsuit in 2004. Pfizer plead guilty.

Stop defending them.

I wonder if more people have died by listening to lay relatives and friends giving them "medical" advice to oppose their physician's instructions compared to those who actually followed their doctor's instructions. I know that many medical complaints that I saw in the emergency room were due to patients who were not taking their medications properly or at all compared to those who were following their treatments properly.

Gee, We all 'wonder'. Is wonder a scientific term? Which medications are you talking about? Were they medications for diabetes or blood thinners or did they have a medicine cabinet bulging and overflowing with a confusing and disgusting array of medications, some needed, many not needed at all with side-effects they ignored or were told to ignore or were just ignored so they stopped taking certain medications???
HUH?

You're losing your Professional tone and sounding more and more like a mere mortal who doesn't know shit.
I'll go with Bob@101 and his views any day of the week before buying your disintegrating arguments.

What I was trying to convey was the fact that often laypeople who have no training in being able to critically appraise the scientific literature rely upon sensationalized reports by the media. They then feel sufficiently authorized to pass judgment upon complex issues that can have serious effects upon people's lives. That can be dangerous, and I have made patients in the emergency room who have taken such advice and ended up seriously ill.

Before you begin with the obvious rebuttal that I feel that the powerful elites who control the information should be the absolute authorities upon their respective subjects and that the unwashed masses should keep silent and obey, there are many examples in history where the authorities were incorrect and amateur laypeople were correct. I think that there should be a measure of balance, and that one should accept neither extreme but use one's intellect and judgment to make a decision about the matter.

I think that when it comes to the scientific literature, there are complex issues of design methodology and statistical analysis that are often above my head, and I defer to colleagues who know more about them. I think that everyone should take a deep breath and examine the evidence according to established standards, and the truth will manifest itself.

crazytown @ 130:

dguller@128, the only thing you didn't mention was patient input. that is very telling.

I thought it was sufficiently obvious that when I mentioned my personal experience with those medications, it was according to what my patients told me about their helpful and harmful effects. I apologize if that was unclear, but I do not believe in the paternalistic model of medicine, but rather in a more cooperative model where the physician and the patient work together in a collaborative fashion to arrive at a biopsychosocial treatment plan that will work for that individual patient. I greatly rely upon my patients' feedback, because they know the intricacies of their lives far better than I can.

I also think that it is very telling that you apply my posts to a rather harsh standard of exactness. Although I welcome such scrutiny as valuable feedback for my own growth, I think that it would be best if emotions were left out of this debate, because they can distort our perceptions and impair our logic and reason. I have no malicious agenda and am not some covert agent of evil pharmaceutical companies, and so perhaps the "personal warmth" that you exalted as the ultimate healing balm in post 50 should be more manifest in your behavior on this post, or perhaps some hypocrisy may be wondered about.

Just play with yourself. That always makes me feel better.

My god, this thread has turned into a bulletin board for logical fallacies, personal attacks, and complete BS it seems.

Here's the reality of it, from my perspective.

As far as antidepressants go. Some people will say they almost were killed by them. Some people will say that they saved their lives. Some people will say that depression isn't a "real" disease. Others will counter that yes, it is a physical illness like diabetes, etc.

So:
Some people are harmed by the drugs.
Some people are helped by the drugs.
Lots of people are given the drugs who don't really need them.
Some people actually do.

The problem isn't all of us whiners out here who want a "magic pill". To say that to someone who is clinically depressed - to imply that they're simply just not trying hard enough and are too lazy to do the work - is counterproductive, cruel, and incorrect. Similarly, to think that the drugs are wonderful, lovely, and something that should be put into the water supply for everyone who feels kinda sad - is just as incorrect.

The real problem isn't necessarily the advent of SSRI's ( or SSNRI's which are the ones with the more severe physical withdrawal effects) - but rather several facets of our current health care system.

1. Drug advertising is absolutely out of hand. To watch TV, you'd think everyone who is having a bad day needs a drug. OR everyone who can't sleep, feels twitchy legs.... etc. etc.... This contributes to ...

2. Regardless of the intentions of the medical professionals who treat people - in the system, we are "customers" not "patients". As long as the health care system is set up like it currently is - that won't change. Because of this, People go to the doctor with a problem. They are often paying to be there, so they expect a solution, right? Well, this causes the over-prescription of SO many drugs. Someone comes in with a upper respiratory virus.... they expect to get something from the doctor they're paying to see! So they get an antibiotic "just in case" the viral infection leads to a bacterial one - when an antibiotic won't do *squat* for the viral infection. This contributes to overuse of antibiotics and the growing resistance of bugs to them now. Similarly, someone who probably is suffering from an adjustment disorder, or a mild mood lowering, and could probably do with counseling for it - goes to the doctor (often a GP) and asks for the drug!.... what is the doctor going to say to their "customer" that they're being pressured to keep happy? what do you think? They could say "you need to get some therapy", but......

3. There is an incredible lack of mental health resources in this country. Most insurance plans won't cover more than 10 or 12 therapy sessions total. Then... that's it. Beyond that, people are looking at anywhere from $50 to $100 a session. For a LOT of people, that's just out of reach. Perhaps you could talk to a social worker, if you qualify, but social workers are qualified to deal with problems arising from social issues - not psychological ones. People don't have access to a good psychotherapist or counselor..... but know that something just isn't right.... they see the commercial.... and ask a GP for the drug. BAM, we have....

4. Complete saturation of the market with the drugs, because so many people are taking them that shouldn't be. Because of this, though, the drug companies are making a ton of money, and therefore competing companies are coming up with "me too" drugs for the same problem. Then they put those advertisements in the middle of "Lost", and ...well... here we go again.

The problem with antidepressants is that too many people are taking them, who shouldn't be, and too many people are taking them without the proper physician supervision that they should have. This leads to a LOT of problems, and a culture that says "everyone take them" and a counterculture that says "Nobody should take them! They're evil!" - which harms everyone by either making people who don't need them, want them, or by scaring off the people who really DO need them from taking them.

It's kind of sad to see this at C&L. There have been some valid points lost in the ad hominems, regarding the criticism of journal entry acceptance, and whether or not the implied accusations of the article are intellectually honest. It was even more sad to come read the comments. I don't know if anyone will read down this far, but .. meh... i had to throw it out there.

IMO, yes, there are always problems with pharmaceuticals. These are valid points to be addressed. True as well is that there are great benefits to pharmaceuticals, often. I just feel as if a great deal of the problems we see with a lot of things like over use of antidepressants wouldn't be changed if we could just get our entire health care / mental health care system in this country sorted out to something that is humane and rational. (and completely accessible by all) If only we could stop culturally acting like consumers in EVERY part of our lives, and finally have businesses (or health care providers) stop treating us as only consumers.

Karrie @ 135:

My god, this thread has turned into a bulletin board for logical fallacies, personal attacks, and complete BS it seems.

Here's the reality of it, from my perspective.

As far as antidepressants go. Some people will say they almost were killed by them. Some people will say that they saved their lives. Some people will say that depression isn't a "real" disease. Others will counter that yes, it is a physical illness like diabetes, etc.

So:
Some people are harmed by the drugs.
Some people are helped by the drugs.
Lots of people are given the drugs who don't really need them.
Some people actually do.

The problem isn't all of us whiners out here who want a "magic pill". To say that to someone who is clinically depressed - to imply that they're simply just not trying hard enough and are too lazy to do the work - is counterproductive, cruel, and incorrect. Similarly, to think that the drugs are wonderful, lovely, and something that should be put into the water supply for everyone who feels kinda sad - is just as incorrect.

The real problem isn't necessarily the advent of SSRI's ( or SSNRI's which are the ones with the more severe physical withdrawal effects) - but rather several facets of our current health care system.

1. Drug advertising is absolutely out of hand. To watch TV, you'd think everyone who is having a bad day needs a drug. OR everyone who can't sleep, feels twitchy legs.... etc. etc.... This contributes to ...

2. Regardless of the intentions of the medical professionals who treat people - in the system, we are "customers" not "patients". As long as the health care system is set up like it currently is - that won't change. Because of this, People go to the doctor with a problem. They are often paying to be there, so they expect a solution, right? Well, this causes the over-prescription of SO many drugs. Someone comes in with a upper respiratory virus.... they expect to get something from the doctor they're paying to see! So they get an antibiotic "just in case" the viral infection leads to a bacterial one - when an antibiotic won't do *squat* for the viral infection. This contributes to overuse of antibiotics and the growing resistance of bugs to them now. Similarly, someone who probably is suffering from an adjustment disorder, or a mild mood lowering, and could probably do with counseling for it - goes to the doctor (often a GP) and asks for the drug!.... what is the doctor going to say to their "customer" that they're being pressured to keep happy? what do you think? They could say "you need to get some therapy", but......

3. There is an incredible lack of mental health resources in this country. Most insurance plans won't cover more than 10 or 12 therapy sessions total. Then... that's it. Beyond that, people are looking at anywhere from $50 to $100 a session. For a LOT of people, that's just out of reach. Perhaps you could talk to a social worker, if you qualify, but social workers are qualified to deal with problems arising from social issues - not psychological ones. People don't have access to a good psychotherapist or counselor..... but know that something just isn't right.... they see the commercial.... and ask a GP for the drug. BAM, we have....

4. Complete saturation of the market with the drugs, because so many people are taking them that shouldn't be. Because of this, though, the drug companies are making a ton of money, and therefore competing companies are coming up with "me too" drugs for the same problem. Then they put those advertisements in the middle of "Lost", and ...well... here we go again.

The problem with antidepressants is that too many people are taking them, who shouldn't be, and too many people are taking them without the proper physician supervision that they should have. This leads to a LOT of problems, and a culture that says "everyone take them" and a counterculture that says "Nobody should take them! They're evil!" - which harms everyone by either making people who don't need them, want them, or by scaring off the people who really DO need them from taking them.

It's kind of sad to see this at C&L. There have been some valid points lost in the ad hominems, regarding the criticism of journal entry acceptance, and whether or not the implied accusations of the article are intellectually honest. It was even more sad to come read the comments. I don't know if anyone will read down this far, but .. meh... i had to throw it out there.

IMO, yes, there are always problems with pharmaceuticals. These are valid points to be addressed. True as well is that there are great benefits to pharmaceuticals, often. I just feel as if a great deal of the problems we see with a lot of things like over use of antidepressants wouldn't be changed if we could just get our entire health care / mental health care system in this country sorted out to something that is humane and rational. (and completely accessible by all) If only we could stop culturally acting like consumers in EVERY part of our lives, and finally have businesses (or health care providers) stop treating us as only consumers.

Excellent points.

I will try to be brief.

This has applied to the local doc down the street all the way up to our biggest medical university campus in Chicago. When the docs prescribe, they do not recommend ANY other therapy for the REAL issue. This seems to be the demise of the un-healthy American. We have been so conditioned for the INSTANT whatever. We treat the symptoms of the problem, but not the problem itself. Essentially its like getting an oil change on your car when what it needs is the more personal labor-intensive valve job.

QUOTE: Steven Dubovsky MD (THE mood disorder expert in the u.s.) “We don’t know how these drugs work, it’s like kicking a television. They work temporarily and then new combinations must be tried”.

In my own personal experiences...there are people that may have needed some sort of drug at one point, but they never took it a step further, therefore they remain in a state of poor mental health. The labels on almost all the drugs as well as the inserts say that these drugs are to be used TEMPORARILY! 6-8 months! I know people that have been on for 8-10 years! Over-prescribed? You betcha! The drug made for treating quick term problems is prescribed for long term use. The brain adapts like it always does to ANY outside influence.

There is no one problem here. Conspiracy of the FDA and others? Absolutely. Money has ALWAYS corrupted. There are plenty of GAG orders to people who have already filed their lawsiuts. Why keep it quiet? Secrets are never good. Especially when it is about healthcare. Make your own decision. Educate yourself.

I'll use a personal experience to illustrate. I'll close with this. As discussed on the 3rd hole of a golf course... My buddy was recently prescribed an antidepressant for his newly developed anxiety disorder. He complained of heart palipitations, anxiety, tremmor, sleeplessness, anger, etc. Doc never asked any questions...just said "Here you go!" But, my friend did not mention to the doc that he was chugging 6-8 RED-BULL/MONSTER energy drinks a day then drinking booze to get himself to sleep at night. Like taking coke and heroin. I told him to quit the drinks (read the can, 2 per day limit.) and the meds before they had effect.... Whalla! He's all better. I have heard MANY stories like this.

So identify the problem in this particular scenario...

There is no communication and it could have been recipy for disaster. The Doc assumes the Drug is harmless and assumes my friend is doing health practices. My friend assumes the Doc has been educated on ALL the effects of the drug and assumes the energy drinks are harmless. Everyone ASSUMES everything is healthy! And who do we ALL look to for that information? Food and Drug Administration.

I could go on for hours but I have to go to work like a good slave. Haha. Good luck to you all.

Brian

you want to meet some people hurt by these drugs?
www.paxilprogress.com