Lou Dobbs: E-Machines Threatening Democracy
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Just days away from the South Carolina primary, Lou Dobbs warns about the dangers of electronic voting systems. Um, Lou? Where were you in 2004? 2000?
The reality is, because no one thinks -- we're focusing on this, the issue is that these machines are not reliable to the degree they should be and with a paper trail, verified paper system. There is -- at least you're protecting the integrity of the system so you have a recount. People must understand, you can't have a recount without that.
Welcome to our world, Lou. Just shows you that the netroots have been ahead of the curve and it's the MSM that must catch up. On a related note--not that it will assuage those who want to believe otherwise--NH's Democratic primary recount has ended and they've found very few errors and the results remained basically the same.
Transcripts below the fold:
DOBBS: The South Carolina democratic primary is now less than three days away. Incredibly, the state of South Carolina plans to use the same electronic voting machines that mall functioned last Saturday in the republican primary. Voters were forced to use scraps of paper to cast their ballots. South Carolina election officials, well they continue to defend that electronic voting system of theirs but as Kitty Pilgrim now reports, an increasing number of states are giving up on electronic voting and ensuring the integrity of their state's votes.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Colorado legislators today agreed to dump touch screen voting and go back to paper for the election.
GOV. BILL RITTER (D), COLORADO: It ensures a paper trail. It minimizes the possibility of technology failures that have caused Election Day problems in the past in Colorado.
PILGRIM: The agreement requires legislation but has bipartisan report.
ALICE MADDEN, COLORADO GENERAL ASSEMBLY: My kids tell me retro is in. So I guess going back to the old fashioned retro way of voting is what we're looking at. Sometimes just because something is old- fashioned doesn't mean it's wrong.
PILGRIM: But in South Carolina a different story. Burned once with malfunctioning machines in last Saturday's republican primary, the state is still going to use the touch screen machines without a paper trail in this Saturday's democratic primary. South Carolina uses the same electronic machines that lost 18,000 votes in the Sarasota County, Florida congressional race in 2006. It's the same machine experts say flipped votes in Texas, Indiana, Pennsylvania, Florida and South Carolina also in that year.
JOHN BONIFAZ, VOTERACTION.ORG: It's time to investigate these companies that have been marketing a defective product across the United States, to hold them accountable for doing that and to have just dicks all across the country, recoup millions of dollars of taxpayer money spent on this defective product.
PILGRIM: Florida will use paperless voting in its upcoming January 29th primary. Five other states, Delaware, Georgia, Kansas, New Jersey and Tennessee will either use all paperless or mostly paperless touch screen voting on Super Tuesday February 5th.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: There's really no excuse for states to cling to the electronic voting systems. A bill in congress will pay for the change for a more secure paper ballot system if the states want to change back. It's clear Colorado made a tough decision but one that will look very support on Election Day. Lou?
DOBBS: And very responsible. The reality is, because no one thinks -- we're focusing on this, the issue is that these machines are not reliable to the degree they should be and with a paper trail, verified paper system. There is -- at least you're protecting the integrity of the system so you have a recount. People must understand, you can't have a recount without that.
Immunity for the telecomms coming.
Fourteen Defining Characteristics of Fascism
#14. Fraudulent elections.
Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating and disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.
Earth to Lou...
He's a bit slow....
Lou is just getting his word in so that he can look like he gives a shit. Finally weighing in with the truth when it is too late to do anything? Thanks, Lou, for trying to have your cake and eat it, too.
If he stays on the story, then maybe I will believe that he has come around, but not one minute before and certainly not right now.
"threatening"??? How about already destroyed.
Terrible @ 5:
Like fixing the lock on the safe after everything has been stolen.
Scott Horton has Six Questions for Mark Crispin Miller, Author of ‘Fooled Again’
And he just now notices the threat?
We have had this issue ever since Bush ran for president and his brothers control Die Bold and the elections.
This is a preview of the coming conservative dispute of the 2008 election result. No matter whom the Dem candidate is, if he or she wins, the conservatives will immediately attempt to de-legitimize the new president by claiming ballot fraud.
Guaranteed.
I agree, if he stays on the story until people get involved, then he's doing a good thing. But knowing Lou, he's just up to his old demagoguery.
Lou's an ass.
I heard him last night calling down the "free-marketeers" of the world and asking "where are they now?" with such distain and yet Naomi Klein states in "The Shock Doctrine" that he was fawning ("embarrassing" is the word I think she uses) all over Friedman (Rest In Chaos) when he had him on his show.
Don't expect a lick of consistency from Daddy Warbucks.
Dennis Kucinich is weighing in on the Election problems in our society... http://www.bradblog.com/?p=5598
We need to do something about these problems. http://pol.moveon.org/paper2008
So now the REPUBLICANS are bitching about the voting machines ?
McCain must be leading the GOP polls.
Never been a fan of Dou Lobbs.
He didn't associate this issue with illegal immigration. i'm perplexed. this is Dobbs right?
Lou Dobbs is ahead of the curve in some ways the "netroots" aren't.
Um...Nicole, with all do respect, where is C&L on the NH recount? It's finished huh? How many counties were counted? Were the unused ballots counted?
The Netroots that are ahead of the curve are http://bradblog.com/ and http://www.blackboxvoting.org/ which I notice that you didn't bother linking to.
As Brad and Bev have shown with their investigative work, the problem isn't just the DRE's, paper votes are also meaningless if there isn't a secure chain of custody. With all the history of election tampering in America®, from Joe Kennedy to Karl Rove, believing that we have anything close to Election Integrity is the tinfoil hat theory.
If you haven't yet, check out Bev's photo essay and comments about what they have been witnessing in NH. It is posted at both Bradblog and BlackBoxVoting.
StirFry @ 16:
Rudy Gu911ani will connect it to Sept 11, so serve is held.
Hey ease up. Apparently Lou gets his news via Pony Express. It takes longer when you are waiting for the news to arrive from a guy on horseback.
Like Dobbs or not, at the very least the important issue of election integrity and security is being discussed, on a MSM show no less. This is a step in the right direction, so I'd like to look at this as a good thing, in spite of my pessimism and paranoia.
more at my blog...
"I am committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president." -- Wally O'Dell - Diebold President - August 14, 2003. And what state did Bush need to win the election in 2004? If you don't know, you betta ax somebody!!!! (by the way, Wally the terrible resigned in December '05 after he did what he promised)
While I am wondering where Lou was in 2004, I see that question as being moot now. The fact that he's talking about it now is a good thing, and it should be encouraged. You have to realize that it's only in the last couple of years the Republican propaganda machine overextended itself, and made itself obvious. Lou's doing the right thing now, it would be smart to work with him. Less QQ more pew pew.
equilibrio @ 18:
Equilibrio, I have this exact conversation with some commenter every single day. C&L is not the be all and end all of liberal blogs. We have a niche that we do very well and that's what we focus on. Why would we attempt to do something not as well as has been covered on other blogs? I never claimed that WE were doing the investigation of it. But we linked to Bradblog and BBV many, many times. Without doing an actual audit, I can't confirm this but I'd wager that we linked them as much if not more than the other top tier blogs.
Out of curiosity, is it your habit to go to Bev at BBV or Brad at his blog and ask why they don't do more media criticism? We all have our specialties.
Well, if anybody thinks the elections have not been rigged for the last several years, they are delusional. If the next election is "close", that will be all the proof you need.
Our elections were privatized, they are rigged, and nothing is going to change that until the corporations that did the stealing are decimated.
And by the way, Democracy was killed when Bush and Cheney seized ownership of the White House.
''Florida will use paperless ballots''
Giuliani wins Florida confirmed
IMO, Lou is concerned this year, and didn't speak up in 2000 or 2004, because it is now the GOP who will be in the "apparently received fewer votes" column.
In a true Democracy, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.
I think as a New Yorker this is my last non-electronic voting cycle.
Yeah I wish Lou would focus on this issue as much as he does the immigration issue. The voting boxes affect me much more than illegal immigration at this point. We'll see.
Actually Dobs has spoken out about this issue a lot and for a very long time. Unfortunately it gets lost to a lot of folks because of his over emphasis of the immigration issue, which by any standard has become the "third rail" of American politics.
Hey, at least this is a small opening
like a sphincter.
Retrogrouch @ 10:
B I N G O
I didn't have time to scan through all of his transcripts but Dobbs has done whole shows on e-voting as far back as 2004. His transcripts only go back to 2003.
LOU DOBBS TONIGHT
Interview With Ohio Governor Bob Taft; Is Electronic Voting a Risk to Democracy?
Aired March 2, 2004 - 18:00 ET
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0403/02/ldt.00.html
I agree with most everything on this website but the Dobbs bashing is a little ridiculous! If anyone has tuned into his show for more than 5 minutes, instead of ingesting 30 second sound bytes to support their own bias, you would see that he is not quite so easy to dismiss as a blow hard than you may like to beleive. He has been on top of a lot of issues concerning the middle class and I applaud him in speaking up for the middle class over and over.
I am surprised at how many folks here are quick to assume Dobbs is a republican. He is an independent and is always encouraging his viewers to challenge the status quo and register independant as well. He has also been talking about electronic voting problems since 2004 easily. Look it up.
Of all people, this crowd should know things aren't as black & white as some would like you to believe.
By the way, my two favorite commentators are Keith Olberman and Lou Dobbs. They may not agree on immigration but they have a lot more in common than you apparently know.
That is FALSE that there were very few errors in the New Hampshire primary! Go to www.bradblog.com and www.blackboxvoting.org and check it out. In fact, brad blog has a post on how WMUR isn't reporting the errors!
MikeL @ 23:
Actually, he's only talking about it now to lay the groundwork so the repigs will be able to contest the results of the '08 elections. That's assuming that there will be any elections that is. Personally, I'm expecting a major turrist strike between in Aug & Oct '08 and a declaration of martial law.
threatening democracy?
what democracy?
we live in a land where votes are not counted, miscounted, where there is voter caging and the purge of vote lists.
but, anyhoo, last i checked we are living in a corporatocracy, where we are given the illusion of control, as we vote for certain candidates, etc. then, go figure, our elected leaders go about governing on the behalf of corporations.
My husband and I are regular viewers of Lou Dobbs every night. I must say in all honesty, Lou has been talking about your voting machines for a long long time now, just not as recently until this issue came up again. You can thank him for speaking about it again, but he has done the same and often a while ago.
Went to Brad Blog and checked out the latest and it seems that C&L's characterization of the NH recount as over and error-free is not at all the case. There are significant errors that are still unexplained, and most of the state's votes were never recounted.
And, Nicole, I think the reason some commenters get so riled up about the subject is that it goes to the core of our democracy. If voting doesn't work, who cares about media criticism? In fact, it might be argued that we should be criticizing media daily for not covering this travesty. Either way, the dismissive tone of the sentence you posted about the NH recount only serves to reinforce the mainstream narrative that there is nothing to worry about here. C&L should be doing anything but reinforcing mainstream narratives, IMO.
For profit election system, there's bound to be corruption in that. You don't have to watch the documented Princeton video evidence to realize that.
2000, 2004, 2006 Diebold, ESS, etc.....
What do they all have in common? Large contributions to GOP. In return, elections are delivered.
The idiotic contention that it will 'cost too much' to put paper trails in place...go to Diebold's site...see what else they make (psst....pay at the pumps, ATMs, etc)...and what do those products always ask after you make a 'transaction'????? Yep...a receipt.
If you want to bill someone for that....I suggest you start with the RNC & GOP, and then let those same corps pick up the cost for their 'faulty' product...call it a warranty replacement/recall. ;)
Are software engineers like me, still conspiracy nuts for not trusting computers?
here is Lou Dobbs over 1 yr ago on electronic voting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5C_vO1u730
[deleted--the rule of posting civilly extends to our contributers too. You may debate the substance of the post, but not attack the contributer personally.]
Big Dan @ 36:
If you don't report it, it didn't happen, right?
her is Lou Dobbs 2 weeks ago on electronic voting machines http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=261IlYmisyE
Planet B @ 40:
Welcome to our world, Lou. Just shows you that the netroots have been ahead of the curve and it’s the MSM that must catch up. <sarcasm>On a related note–not that it will assuage those who want to believe otherwise–NH’s Democratic primary recount has ended and they’ve found very few errors and the results remained basically the same.</sarcasm>
Notice the sentence before points out that MSM are just now following the lead of the blogs. With some media still claiming there's no problem (like WMUR, ABC affiliate). That's how I read it.
"On a related note–not that it will assuage those who want to believe otherwise–NH’s Democratic primary recount has ended and they’ve found very few errors and the results remained basically the same."
Jesus, WHAT?
• The SecState admitted that he had NO IDEA where the memory cards from the tabulators were. He gives them to Diebold, and they do whatever they want with them. He is required to secure those memory cards for TWENTY-TWO MONTHS, and he didn't secure them for ten minutes.
• One hundred voters voted for Obama, and their votes disappeared when they went through the tabulator.
• Error rates of up to TEN PERCENT (acceptable is 1% or a fraction) were recorded in the differential between the machine tabulations and the hand count.
• The boxes the ballots were stored in and delivered in were NOT sealed, many showed signs of having been split open with razor blades and then resealed, many of them were crushed or with the lids askew.
• The SecState refused any examination of the voter rollbooks (to determine if the vote-counts matched the number of voters).
• The R recount, which was paid for in full and therefore will be a recount of all ballots (and not the sample granted Kucinich), started TODAY.
• This black Republican was charged SIXTY THOUSAND DOLLARS to arguably recount his forty-four statewide votes. A frontrunner would have been charged $2000 total.
• The SecState violated NH law by forcing him to pay these monies up front, before granting the recount. NH law requires only the payment of the $2000 up front, with a promissory note (as done in most states, except when they are trying to block recounts).
And so on. Nicole, completely shocked you took the NH SecState's "nothing to see here, move along" LIE as fact. Don't tell us the 'blogosphere' is ahead of the curve, when in fact BRADBLOG and actual voting-rights groups like Blackboxvoting.org are ahead of the curve, and most of the major blogs can't figure out whether to dismiss the recounters and auditors the first day after the election, or a week later when the SecState tells them to go back to sleep.
I'm surprised the topic of election machines is broadcast at all, Dobbs or no Dobbs. The other night, I didnt expect his call for financial market regulation either. Necessary stuff regardless of the messenger
Also, Lou Dobbs doesn't address his OWN e-vote series, and instead goes along with the force-fed media stories "comeback kid", "why were the exit polls wrong?", and "why did the media get it wrong?"...instead of "could the count have been wrong?" using his own e-vote series as proof that the machines miscount AND are proven to be easily/untraceably compromised!
Maybe the Illelegal aliens are responsible for this!!!!
salt @ 44:
Get your own blog if you don't like it. I am so sick of people criticizing what C&L chooses to post. No one forces you here, and you certainly don't need to read (or comment) on every fucking thread posted.
Stuff a sock in it.
The REPUBLICAN who railroaded e-vote machines down our unsuspecting throats, Bob Ney, now sits in jail! He authored HAVA (Help America Vote Act...can you say Clear Skies Initiative?).
the following...is cut-n-paste from here
http://www.businessandmedia.org/printer/2006/20061115142856.aspx
For five months prior to the 2006 election, CNN’s “Lou Dobbs Tonight” featured a nightly “Democracy at Risk” segment all about the dangers of electronic voting machines. Dobbs also had an hour-long special by the same name that aired multiple times beginning on Oct. 29, 2006. In the special, Dobbs and reporter Kitty Pilgrim talked about the hacking potential of many different electronic voting machines, glitches, and about foreign ownership of American voting machines, by none other than Hugo Chavez.
I call bullshit on Nicole Bell!
[I call it on your incivility toward Nicole-Sitemonitor]
And then Lou Dobbs turns his back ON HIS OWN SERIES "Democracy At Risk"!!! And says, "Why were the exit polls wrong?" and "Why did we get it wrong?" YOU DIDN'T GET IT WRONG! And WMUR reports, "Things went fine with e-voting in New Hampshire" to whitewash it!
Donating money to and supporting Bush/Cheney...where else?
Dobbs is a tool.
Slashdot has been commenting on blackbox.org and Deiblod starting in 2003. This crap didn't start in 2006.
greg palast anyone?!?!?!
he's been talking about this since 2000...even b4 those elections i think.
Dobbs is a nasty little prick. But, on this count, he is working for the truth, going to show that even Hitler loved opera.
Planet B @ 65:
Yeah, that would be great if it was framed as constructive criticism instead of just being an ass. There were plenty of commenters (whom I didn't reply to) who were appropriate. This guy started out his criticsim by saying it was lame to write about Lou Dobb's at all b/c no one cared and then went into a personal attack on the poster. Sorry, I call bullshit when I see it, too. Comment on the content all you want, not the poster.
Paul in LA @ 64:
Dobbs working for truth, or working the Republican spin as Retrogrouch @ 10: noted:
Did Dobbs start noticing the problem when it was recognized that Republicans were going to loose big in 2006?
I want a do-over in new hampshire after they revert back to paper ballots.
Pete @ 33:
I firmly believe that that is true, IF they can't get the 'Diebold Bounce' and win by 1%.
All I got to say about this is...paper, paper, paper... If I try to say more and really elaborate, I'll be writing for screen after screen and end up at the same place in the end... Papertrail! It ain't magic and it ain't perfect but it's a damned sight more reliable then electronic voting with its' multiple downsides... Besides I've ranted on this crap repeatedly when a thread about it came up since the whole scheme smacked the public upside the head after the 2000 election theft. This scam was suppose to be the big deal fix for that Florida meltdown... It was a 'fix' alright. Oh yea, just to stir the kettle, I ain't no Dobbs basher... He's OK, not perfect but OK in my book. He may beat the immigration thing into the ground, but he raises a lot of other issues as well, and brings them to the attention of the public as someone in the MSM should, while most dwell on Britney's skivvies and Pam's boobs and Lilo's latest boozefest....JD
jack damage @ 69:
Those are PEOPLE, with families and often small children.
He's a pig.
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/
It's naive, if not silly, to buy the notion that the paper ballots in NH were not tampered with during the ten or so days that Diebold and the DLC Hillary-friendly governor had to fix the recount, just as they fixed the election results.
Evidence that the paper ballots could have been, and almost certainly were, altered to match the Diebold machines is at the BlackBoxVoting website.
In any state with Diebold machines, the governor and his board of elections have control not only of the votes, but of the recount. That's unless law enforcement empounds the paper ballots as the polls close.
Until states are forced to dump the Diebold machines, elections are subject to whoever controls the board of elections. Last time I looked, that wasn't us.
Even if you get rid of electronic voting you will never have a system as good as that in the UK.
All that will happen is crooked republicans will stuff ballots marked republican into the boxes on their way to the counting areas. Thousands and thousands of them.
Republicans are
A Crooked
B Liars
C Paedophiles
D War Mongers (though not themselves doing the fighting)
E Closet Homos
F ALL OF THE ABOVE.
F is the correct answer by the way.
Ah, well! Um... Good morning, Rip Van Dobbs!
Russ Mason UK @ 72:
When we have legal elections (and the electoral college doesn't get in the way) we at least elect our executive directly, as opposed to by the legislature as in the UK.
rbrooks @ 71:
There is ZERO EVIDENCE of any sort of rigging by Clinton.
In the tiny sample recounted, all the Dems got the same unexplained boost (about 10-15%) of votes tabulated but not cast.
Paul @ 73:
Its more like good morning Nicole! (I'm not here to defend Dobbs) but he has been covering electronic voting machines for a while...
Nicole Belle's first four sentences...
""Just days away from the South Carolina primary, Lou Dobbs warns about the dangers of electronic voting systems. Um, Lou? Where were you in 2004? 2000?""
and..""Welcome to our world, Lou. Just shows you that the netroots have been ahead of the curve and it’s the MSM that must catch up.""
are very misleading!
Dobbs has covered this electronic machine stuff for a while...
Everyone should makes plans now to be out of town on election day. Then submit an absentee ballot. Its the only paper trail you're gonna get. It won't matter though. The fix is in. A winner has already been chosen by the corporations. You might be allowed to pretend to vote this year, if you're all real good. And even if by some miricle they're actually counted, you still lose. They got to select the field you think you are choosing from.
HDon @ 78:
Holy shit!!! thats the best idea ever!! you are my hero for the day! (I never thought of that)! I wanna do it just for myself...for my records.
could someone do that? (from inside the U.S.)...or do you have to be out of the country to sumit an absentee ballot?
Stop it. You will be deleted on the spot if I see this again---John Amato
HDon @ 78:
That depends on your state.
Absentee ballots are COMMONLY thrown out.
If you vote in person, you have the opportunity to observe illegal or improper activity. Eyes and ears, protecting the rights of others. An absentee ballot gives you nothing, and they would LOVE for people to switch to absenteeism on every count.
good for Colorado - notice that the governor is a dem.
I wonder if the states that are continuing to use paperless voting might change their tune if they were threatened with the state's votes being totally disqualified if a candidate filed for a recount.
I love C&L. Nicole is the messenger, C&L allows me to agree or disagree, even with the messenger. Thoes of you who are perfect,or who have the perfect blog, please cast the first stone? My history is that I liked some of Dobbs,but got burned out on the border mess. I honored his reporting of all the jobs going overseas. I don't remember a big deal about the 2 elections America got screwed out of on his show,which should have been #1 in my book. He works for cnn, which has shown a bias for republicans.
Clytemnestra @ 82:
The SecState of NH is also a Dem, and he has failed miserably to perform his duties. And I have to say that Colorado is not going down the straight and narrow, but fudging and trying to have it both ways. The R SecState of CO has announced:
"All Voting Systems by ES&S Completely Decertified; DRE Touch-Screens from Sequoia Banned; Optical-Scan Paper Systems by Hart InterCivic Banned; All Systems by Diebold/Premier Conditionally ALLOWED for Use!"
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=5451
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=5556
milquetoast @ 77:
Not in 2000 or 2004. Good for him that he did it in 2006. He's still catching up with the netroots.
Lou Dobbs is a tool of the corporate media machine. If he picks up on this meme, it's to serve their ends, no matter how much he believes to be or sounds as if he is "thinking for himself."
Lou Dobbs has indeed been reporting on this issue as far back as 2004 and that is as far back as his transcripts on-line go. Below is a link to the 2004 show transcript.
Electronic Voting: The Catastrophe that Wasn't
After election, media silent on left-wing claims of Diebold-Bush conspiracy.
By Julia A. Seymour
Business & Media Institute
11/15/2006 2:30:56 PM
http://www.businessandmedia.org/printer/2006/20061115142856.aspx
LOU DOBBS TONIGHT
Interview With Ohio Governor Bob Taft; Is Electronic Voting a Risk to Democracy?
Aired March 2, 2004 - 18:00 ET
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0403/02/ldt.00.html
Okay... Nicole made a mistake and SO WHAT? That wasn't the main point of her post!
The main point is the warning that these machines were the same ones that blew away 18,000 votes in Sarasota in 2004, Flipped votes in six states in 2004, were just banned in Colorado, made a fiasco of the Republican primary in SC, and what is worse????
These are the machines that are going to be used in the Democratic Primary and the General Election by South Carolina!
Now you can just here the uproar coming from the SC Dem primary results all ready... but while it is too late there to do anything, It may be possible to do something on a Federal level before the General Election where it will count big time!
So let's just get our panties out of a twist, tone down the rhetoric and leave Nicole alone. By and large she does a very good job, so nuff said!
Stop attacking Nicole. I won't put up with it anymore...
Can we start calling him Ron Burgundy, since this proves he'll read anything that's put in front of him?
Lou Dobbs: wrong about most things, late on the rest.
Well, no shit, Lou. Nice to see you finally popped your head outta your ass. Only took you 8 years.
It , is , WAY , TOO , LATE , 2 do ANYTHING about this short of Revolution .
GOOD job Dems !
bughunter @ 85:
And he's a very snug and annoying tool at that. Would love to see more dirt dug up on this guy.
I would like to apologize to John and Nicole for any breach of protocol.
Did he blame "illegal aliens" for the problem. Fucking asshole.
Paul in L.A.;
Paul, the man is for legal immigration as am I. His rants on the subject are about illegal immigration or undocumented border crossing or whatever phrase works for you.. Families and kids or not, this is something that effects us all and the economy in a negative way and should be stopped. It punks us all out including the people waiting in line to come here the legal way from all over the world... If you want to hold Dobbs accountable for bringing it up and calling him a pig over it, then you really need to save some of your anger for the real perps in this mess..
That would be corporate America who desires it, the Bush administration who helps facilitate it, and last but not least the leadership of Mexico itself who encourages its citizens to do this thing of crossing into America without going thru the proper channels. Then there is the whole south of the border drug trade who thrives on it. The various details of which is its own sordid can-o-worms.......
For my money, the real pigs other than the above mentioned institutions are the cyotees and other faciltator middlemen who charge thousands of dollars to the unfortunates caught up in this mess, dirt poor from all over, not just Mexico, and with no prospects in their own country. Then hold them and their families back in wherever litterally for ransom.. Forcing the men to give most of whatever they are earning; taking our jobs for dirt wages driving down wages for all of us, back to them, A situation which make these people with wives and children for all practical purposes indentured servants to criminals and slave labor for corporate America.. Then there's the issue of women, mostly forced into some kind of sweatshop work if they're lucky.. Otherwise it's forced prostitution...again with most of the money going either to the pimp or into the pockets of the criminals who got them....
So yea, Paul like I said, if you want to give Dobbs hell over all this, save a little back for these other fucks who are really responsible for this mess.....I gotta go now, but if you want to continue chatting with me on this subject, I'll check this thread later......JD
jack damage @ 90:
His "rants" is a nice way to describe LYING ABOUT LEPROSY, Jack.
There are many greater bastards than someone who REPORTS that poor immigrants carry feared diseases and endanger the community, but that's plenty for me to punch him in the mouth if I ever see him. He has harmed children by the thousands, the coward.
“UNCOUNTED, The New Math Of American Elections”
http://www.uncountedthemovie.com/about-the-film.html
http://www.aria-aperta.org/AriaAperta/UNCOUNTEDdetails.html
Guys, E-Machines is a great ready-made computer company...
Let's not drag their name through the mud.
"not that it will assuage those who want to believe otherwise" (You know like we are "conspiracy theorists" with tin foil hats.)
It could have been worded without the "want to".
I don't think the election integrity people "want to " believe all votes are not being counted or are being miscounted but they are seeing mistakes and most are computer programmers themselves. I think they would love to proven wrong.
Lou kicks ass! Glad to see Lou standing up for us again!
P.S. Democrats are against illegal immigration. If you aliens don't like it you should be with the republican party. Their corporate buddies are the ones that want to exploit you as slaves in our country at the expense of our jobs.
Shag @ 89:
No, this particular problem is one of the few that illegal aliens are not responsible for. But there sure as hell the culprit of alot of other problems we have in this country.
Are all of you anti-Dobbs people illegal aliens? I don't know where you all come from (unless it's Mexico). I don't know any democrats personally that are for open borders and illegal immigration.
Of course he says this NOW. The next election is very likely to result in a Democratic victory. We can't have that, can we? So now is when the conservative pundits start railing about voter fraud, voting machines, etc. It's just like the way they keep bringing up Bill Clinton's supposed moral yuckiness, but conveniently ignore or explain away the much greater perversions of their own kind. Believe me, if the country weren't chomping at the bit to oust their slimy kind, they'd never bring this subject up. In fact, they'd excoriate anyone who even SUGGESTED that voting machines might derail the process.
Planet B @ 40:
Hell, why trust Brad, you can check out the states page and do the math. They only completed one county and the largest precinct had an over vote of like 10% when audited. As a matter of fact a majority of precincts did have errors. To top it off, New Hampshire's Secretary of State, Bill Gardner, then told the media that Kusinich "satisfied at the integrity of the recount." When in a letter sent to the SOS and published said ""significant variances" existed.
What gives??? I'm losing my respect for this web site.
teknikAL @ 98:
Don't fall off your free barstool.
ok, i watch dobbs. he was on this long before 2004 and 2005. watch his show first
The Rethugs are like having a wife with no credit limit on a credit card. You the taxpayer will be responsible because you married the C***. Are only mistake was being born in America. How do we get a divorce when were not allowed to get on a plane. Mexico jails people who enter thier country and holds them for ransom.
Are the Democrats choosing Hillary because she has the moral integrity to stop an unjust war and to hold war criminals responsible for leading America into war based on lies and deception? Are they choosing Hillary because she defends the US Constitution from usurpation by executive power? Are they choosing her because she is public-spirited instead of personally ambitious?
No. The Democrats are choosing Hillary because of gender and race. Despite all the efforts of Democratic activist groups, the majority of Democratic voters are more concerned with race and gender issues than with their country's reputation and their civil liberties.
If elected president, Hillary will bring no more change than did the Democratic congressional majority elected in 2006.
Obama might not bring any change either. But he is the only candidate in the running who has expressed concern over Israel's mistreatment of the Palestinians and who voted against the Iraq invasion. Clearly, he is a better bet for change than Hillary. However, Democrats are more attuned to race and gender issues than to war crimes and loss of civil liberties.
FULL ARTICLE HERE:
http://counterpunch.org/roberts01242008.html
everything you need to know about hillary clinton and her "health care" plan:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9L50shyUoQU
and about that slum lord tony rezko:
http://www.drudgereport.com/flash1.htm
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Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
No one knows how the Diebold electronic voting machines programmed by Republican operatives with proprietary software will count the votes.
If it hasn't become a stolen affair, the American presidency has become a family affair, one that is passed from a Bush to a Clinton to a Bush and back to a Clinton. The interest groups are satisfied, and nothing of importance changes.
(DEFINITELY HOW HILLARY WON N.H.)
FULL ARTICLE HERE:
http://counterpunch.org/roberts01242008.html
2fargone @ 103:
The latest Zogby poll blows your narrative to bits. Race is more a factor in Obama's camp but he also has lead in women voters. Edwards surging with AA voters.
.
.
SC: Edwards +6, Obama -5, Hillary even
Obama -- 38%
Clinton -- 25%
Edwards -21%
Undecided7%
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1434
first of all, lou has been reporting about this as long as ive been watching, and ive been watching since before the run up to the war.. so all you fuqs can stfu hating lou. it seems to me that those who talk bad about lou have nevr watched lou, therefore should have no opinion, or at least not speak about something you dont know! period.
Paul in L.A.
Interesting response.... given what I actually outlined, I'll let it stand on its own. I don't know much about Dobbs lying about leprosy, but you go ahead and punch his teeth out if you see him if this particular issue tics you off that much..
As for me, I will still reserve my ire and punches in the teeth for the coyotes who brought the undocumented person or persons from some other nation into America without going thru proper channels...probably stuffed like sardines into an 18 wheeler with a hidden compartment. Though in their case, given their proclivities, the chances of a fistfight is nill if I had that opportunity.. Probably would have to resort to just putting a cap up their asses.. But be that as it may, I will direct my anger whatever form it takes at them.
And I will save my hatred for the existance of this issue for the Corporate CEO's, amoral politicals and others who are benefitting from this sordid mess. They are the ones behind it, and they are the ones who could bring it to a close... if they wanted to. But they don't. And as result, you and I and every citizen of this nation as well as the unfortunates from Mexico and other nations who are rendered as little more than cattle are exploited.
And just as a medical note. Can't speak to leprosy, I have been led to believe as a medical condition it is mostly under control and only at a certain stage can it be transmitted, but I know this. One danger in all this illegal migrating is the fact that any one of these exploited people could in fact bring a serious contagious desease into this nation via this illegal method of entry and noone would know it or even have a clue until many people began to fall ill and die... And that too, affects all of us and is yet another reason to stand against illegal migrations of people from one nation to another, be it America from Mexico or any nations population to any other nation outside channels..
something to think about if you want to dwell on leprosy as a factor in why you dislike Dobbs..................JD
Hell, I bet Hugo Chavez has less cheating than here in Uncle Sam Land!!
The bastards!!
Lindy
jack damage @ 108:
LOVE how you support the disease-fearmongering.
Bush's war has brought diseases to the US that we will suffer for generations (such as flesh-eating bacterias that otherwise weren't here).
The poor crossing our borders are SEASONAL workers. By blocking the border, all that has occured is that those workers are stuck here. Destroying the N. Mexican economy with NAFTA pushed them here as well. There has NEVER been a terrorist attack from those persons, though gangs are an issue. And there would be no health danger, except that caused by Lou Dobbs and others who want to deny health care to the poor.
Meanwhile, Bush approves allowing every semitruck in Mexico to come across the entire US without inspection.
Ok, one more post on this.. It is after all a dead thread and I seriously doubt you are anyone will read it anyway, but here's the thing Paul in L.A. I ain't in support of any desease fear-mongering or whatever. I am not aware of the Dobb's broadcast in which Dobb's made this leprosy statement to which your anger refers to.. What I do know is that contagious deseases are dangerous and can kill... And that illegal migrations are one method of transmission from one nation to another. That's just a fact. And it ain't the only way for desease to spread.. I get that...
Your referring to the poor coming here as seasonal workers has nothing to do with it as a health inplication in and of itself. Anyone can bring desease into America from another region. But allowing people to migrate willy-nilly without the kind of checking that occurs by going thru proper immegration channels is just begging for health trouble. The fact that you imply they never brought desease into America before is not neccessarily anything either one of us can prove or disprove. But even allowing you the benefit of the doubt on that statement, that paradigm of poor just coming here to do seasonal work is also not necessarily relevant or true in the here and now even IF that WAS the way it was back in the day.
But your comment about these poor coming here to do seasonal work does go to the heart of the debate about illegally migrating people from other nations driving down the wages for everyone here in the here and now. Truth is, in fact, it is and was the dirty little secret that was convenient to overlook for decades till it hit home with off-shoring which was also a by-product of nafta which you have raised in your post.
As regards your comment about nafta specifically? I am not in disagreement on that. I think nafta sucks and is/was the politicians contribution to this mess at the behest of corporate America. We are, I suspect, in agreement on our views of nafta. And on Mexican truckers free rein to drive our roads? I have never been in favor of that either... There are so many things wrong about that and so much negative potential from this as to be frankly to numerous to go into on a dead thread..
For what its worth, I believe based on your last comment about this, we are probably in agreement in our views of this b.s. as well... Foreign truckers driving our roads now freely, is just another braindead gift from the Bush administration... And yes, Bush's war will bring home that desease you mentioned and many others including war derived mental illness in our troops. He and Dick Cheney with a handful of other assholes are ruining our society and culture and I have never had any use for any of them or their damnable war..
For what its worth, I suspect we are in agreement on that as well.. For the most part I suspect we are in agreement on many many things... And on those subjects we are not in agreement on, such as the details of this immigration scandal or whether or not Lou Dobbs is the first persons ass to kick over someone else like Cheney or Bush or some drugrunnner or some labor exploiting CEO?... We're just gonna have to agree to disagree and move on... I know I'm going to after this final post.. But I do hope we can discuss the issues of the day again in the future...
Though some don't like you, I find you an interesting poster even when I'm in disagreement with you... I suspect I'm not a lot of peoples fav poster either...regards; JD
Lou Dobbs has been talking about the privatized mess that is our election "system" since 2006.
Search BradBlog.com.
although I've turned lou off, he has been one of the only people in the press that have consistently addressed the issue...
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