Mukasey's testimony shocks the conscience
By John Amato Wednesday Jan 30, 2008 4:30pm
We can thank Dianne Feinstein for this outrageous performance by the new Attorney General Michael Mukasey.
Mukasey responded that it was "not simply a relative issue," but there "is a statute where it is a relative issue," he added, citing the Detainee Treatment Act. That law engages the "shocks the conscience" standard, he explained, and you have to "balance the value of doing something against the cost of doing it." What does "cost" mean, Biden wanted to know.
Mukasey said that was the wrong word. "I mean the heinousness of doing it, the cruelty of doing it, balanced against the value.... balanced against the information you might get." Information "that couldn't be used to save lives," he explained, would be of less value.
Here we go again. WTF does he mean by balancing value to balancing cost when it comes to torture and in the field---is there a little red book that gives them guidelines? Why bother splitting the difference? Digby explains:
It's really hard for me to believe that someone who used to be a federal judge can blow that sophistry in a congressional hearing with a straight face. If you don't know what they know, then you can't know in advance if what they know might save lives, right?
I honestly don't know why everybody's so hung up on waterboarding specifically at this point. If this is their legal understanding, then they can use the rack, they can break arms and legs and they can pull teeth out with a pair of pliers. There is no logical difference between any of that and waterboarding if the only moral and legal guideline is that "it might be used to save lives."
Bush and Co. have turned their party into the party of torture. McCain and Romney are standing by their man also, so they get mucho kudos from Cheney.. It's quite sickening....
Login or Register to post comments.
Did Dianne Feinstein learn anything from 7 years of BUSH and the GOP
NOTHING...Bush nor his staffers CAN NOT BE TRUSTED
Dianne Feinstein will face the same fate as TRADER JOE LIBERMAN
the BUSH KISS of death
next election
FACT
Diane's END OF DAYS should come when the good people of california KICK HER ASS OUT OF OFFICE ..... if they could possibly try to remember that she is REPUBLICAN LITE
in a clearly educated state such as Kalifornia... it is amazing that they have been "fooled" into Daine, and Arnold.....
IF THE DEMS WOULD GET OUT OF THEIR SPAS AND DOWN TO THE VOTING BOOTH, THIS COULD BE FIXED VERY SOON..
OF COURSE JUST AROUND ELECTION TIME EACH WILL DO SOME LIBERAL SIDED THING...
DEMOCRATS OF CALIFORNIA... PLEASE TRY TO KEEP YOUR MEMORIES ALIVE... WE NEED TO GET A LITTLE MORE LIBERAL
I just want this administration out. I can't take it anymore. Between the scandals and incompetant asses in main stream media. Bush and his cabal are going to slink out of every criminal investigations. It makes me want to stop watching the news. I thought it would be a good thing to be informed but it just seems so hopeless.
That Mukasey's predecessor isn't sitting in front of a judge shocks the conscience.
Now wait wrong word. It pisses the conscience off.
They knew who the man was when they let him have the position. He did the same shuck and jive, and they let him in. Fuck 'em all.
I absolutely can't stand the simple grammatical errors on this site. It completely downgrades the professionalism. Am I along on this issue, seriously? Here's a tip for the bloggers:
THERE - This is used in sentences like "There are problems ..." or "Look over there!"
THEIR - This denotes possession, as in "Mine" or "Yours" or "Theirs." Use it in a sentence: "Their weapons are wet."
THEY'RE - This is a contraction for "THEY ARE."
Let's use them all in a sentence now so the C&L bloggers catch on: "Their weapons don't work and they're tired of fighting insurgents over there so we don't fight them over here."
[Thanks for the ticket, Officer Grammarian-Sitemonitor]
"Like the sad, impotent Roman Senate which existed only to lend its imprimatur to the Emperor's conduct, the Congress' only choices are -- as it did yesterday -- to plead for "re-consideration," and then, when it's not forthcoming, either do nothing or endorse the President's behavior."
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/01/31/mukasey/index.html
Message to congress: Impeach, and imprison, you god damn spineless bastards!
Well that's one asking questions, 300 million to go ......
Ken Brosky @ 5:
Yes you are alone on this issue.
Why is this post here? We inhabit this cozy little world where we express shock and dismay at tactics used by the real people on the front lines who have to make real decisions in real time regarding issues of the utmost gravity. I don't give a rat's ass if one of these fanatics is water boarded if it saves even one American life. Wake up assholes, we are at war.
He deserved to be derided and ridiculed in public during his testimony. Even Specter and Grassley looked like they were so disgusted, yet, somehow, feel that they are powerless in this silly game.
They are not powerless. Subpoenas. Impeachment. Investigation. Challenge the signing statements to the Supreme Court (How would those "strict Constructionists " come down on these issues.
Simply disgusting.
Nevermind all that, BACK TO THE QUESTION....is it agains the law or not..we all know it IS, now it's time for YOU to do you job and admit it, or RESIGN....NEXT.
Mukasey is well-known on K-street as the man who can throw darts everywhere but dead center. He is an expert at his field, Bush chose wisely in nominating him for AG.
clark @ 10:
You are deluded.
We are in several bullshit/fake/fucked up wars.
Iraq, Terror, Drugs etc......
perhaps we could give first hand experiences of all these
forms to bush/cheney and mukasey and the rest of the bush
administration and then maybe they will give a definition of what
torture is. nothing like real-life experiences, now is there?
Ken Brosky @ 5:
Are you a long what?
don't forget SCHUMER.....he's just as much of an idiot.
clark @ 10:
That same excuse has been used by Hitler, Stalin and many other opressive regimes throughout history.
Ken Brosky @ 5:
wft is up your butt. so there are errors. there are errors in all those
elitist mags you read too. we will all be watching for one of yours.
Clark, you authoritarians are just so damned thick-headed.
We have been able to CREDIBLY be the leaders of the free world precisely because we do not tolerate this cowardly, immoral, illegal, inhuman, inhumane, and useless crap.
We are supposed to be the good guys. You know, when people accuse liberals of "hating America," we don't hate America, we just are disgusted by people who think this is acceptable behavior for humans. It is not. It has not been for centuries. The fact that other people do it doesn't make it right. The fact that occasionally we MIGHT get useful information doesn't make it right, either.
As John Dean said on Countdown last night, Nixon on his worst days would never allow what passes for reasonable behavior in this administration to go on. Ever. (I paraphrased.)
Cheers,
So, to what degree and whether or not to torture is considered on a case by case basis, but dammit, let's continue to have strict sentencing guidelines for those arrested for drug possession. Let's make sure that our paid torturers have more flexibility than our judges and courts!!!
Everyone blames the Bush admin and Repubs - and rightly so.
But what about the Dems? They sign off on this BS on a regular basis. Progressives/liberals have little representation.
When is the DNC going to stop funding and endorsing Republican clones? Not that most of the non-Repub clones have any backbone whatsoever, which certainly compounds the problem. Everything from the primary system to their inane strategy of giving in to the Rpublicans on everythig so they don't look weak on defense is an absurd strategy.
Ya know how I know that it 's and absurd strategy? Because nothing's been accomplished ont he big issues:
We're still in the war (where are the dems that can hold up war funding? No where to be seen) and we still have executive hegemony where the exec spies on us, tortures whom they want and suspend Habeas Corpus - w/o consequence.
We need stop slavishly supporting these idiots just becasue they have a "D" after their name, and maybe the DNC will get the picture.
how do you judge what you MIGHT get? You are either a morally bankrupt torturer or you are not.
cmhmd @ 20:
thank you for being more articulate than i could ever hope to be.
Joe Biden likes to hear himself talk. I wish he asked more pointed questions and used the art of silence a little more effectively.
Ken Brosky:
I know!!!!! Their are douchebags like this all over the internet! There grammar sucks, and I can barely understand them. There driving me crazy enough to write pointless blog entries to criticize there behavior!
Another good clip from this testimony was Sen. Edward Kennedy asking Mukasey if he would consider it torture if someone waterboarded him. That was funny and a great direct question that worked. I saw it on CNN or MSNBC (once of course) and haven't seen it since.
Steve @ 22:
You know, I'm not what would be described in this blog as a progressive. I am a party loyalist and have worked within the system to try to make my party better, but I have to agree with your points. The Dems are shit-scared to vote against funding the war lest they be called "weak on defense" by the Rethugs. In the meantime, the Rethugs lie, cheat, steal, subvert the Constitution, and destroy the environment, and they don't give a rat's ass what we Dems think or say about it. Dem's need to follow their principles and quit worrying about what the thugs will say. They'll say what they want anyway, whether it's true or not.
Actually, I think it's terrific that Mukasey doesn't consider waterboarding illegal. So let's grab him, tie him down, and pour water into his nose and mouth until he thinks he's drowning. Then we'll let him go. And he won't call the cops on us, will he? Cause what we did, while not very nice, wasn't illegal.
Yellow Elephant Safari @ 16:
Ouch!
Liberalista:
i think the thing that pisses me off is that it doesn't even work! It's not like capitulating to the Repubs on these issues has won them any power they their (Hi Ken!) willing to use, and a vast majority of the country wants out anyway! Who are they pandering to !?! The MINORITY? It boggles my mind from a moral and a strategic POV.
Obviously crimes have been and are being committed in this current administration. Major crimes, war crimes, crimes against the Constitution and on and on.
But let us not fool ourselves. They are all being done with the votes of Democrats to back them up. The Democrats are "going along to get along". There has to be a logical reason the Democrats have been in lockstep with these crimes for all these years beginning with signing off on The Patriot Act without ever having read it, right on up to Pelosi keeping impeachment "off the table" when she and all the other Democrats (including Obama and Clinton) are well aware that there have been grounds for Bush and Cheney's impeachment for years.
Something stinks...big time. And the saddest thing of all is we don't even have any Woodward and Bernstein's anymore. They've all turned into Stepford journalists. [Deleted. This is not a thread about him. Don't think of trying to turn it in to one. Thanks-Sitemonitor]
Even whistle blowers like Sybil Edmonds are shut up! After spending hours in secret sessions with members of the House and Senate Intelligence Committees PROVING criminality at the highest levels, what happened? States Secret Privilege.
Which is why it is meaningless who we vote for in November. I'm not merely being cynical here! Why on Earth would we think one single substantial change will be made to restore our rights that have been legislated away by DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS!!? And don't get me started on the way our voting has been taken over by private corporations who use computers that are hackable and the count is done in total secrecy.
While watching this circus yesterday, I heard Mukasey refer to this administration's governing as a 'regime'. I have a question.........is that an appropriate reference to a supposed democratic form of government?
Thanks.
Abbybwood:
I agree with most of what you say - especially re: the press. They have become useless - and just when we need them to light a fire under the dem legislators the most.
It's easy to justify when you're not the one on the meat hook. You know these disgusting vermin wouldn't last six seconds in captivity. They'd hand out the password to shrub's personal diary if a foreign captor looked at them sideways.
I say if you want to use torture you call it what it is and then you're only allowed to use techniques that have been tried on your children first.
Perfect choice of words for this thread's headline--"shocks the conscience".
McCain + Romney are standing by "they're" man. How nice for them. (Sorry Ken--many don't have a wonderful grasp of grammar or spelling yet are quite knowledgeable and have a lot to contribute.)
Bah!! More word games and semantics... They (as in those folks over there in D.C. and not over their or over they're.. There! Happy oscifur gammerian??)... Anyway, back to the rant.. Them thar folks over yonder need to just kick the mofo out, get rid of him... He's almost as worthless as Alberto fuckupsuckup!!!... Probably more so since since he was picked by Bush to clean up and coverup better after the last lamebrain, and then rubberstamped thru the process by dems who ought to damn well know better by now since they've just spent the last seven years being Bush's personal cell block type beyotches..Ahh to hell with it.. I'm with bit NOLA on this.. fuck em all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maaabeee, just maaaybe we'll get a REAL USAG after numbnuts and his crew leave next january. But I really wouldn't bet the farm on it juusst yet..............JD
Digby says:
“I honestly don’t know why everybody’s so hung up on waterboarding specifically at this point. If this is their legal understanding, then they can use the rack, they can break arms and legs and they can pull teeth out with a pair of pliers.”
How do we know they aren’t employing the other means as well? We don’t know. No one will tell us. We won’t know for certain until it is WE who are undergoing interrogation.
It's not complicated ::
tor·ture (tôr“ch…r) n. 1.a. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion. b. An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain. 2. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense. 3. Something causing severe pain or anguish. --tor·ture tr.v. tor·tured, tor·tur·ing, tor·tures. 1. To subject (a person or an animal) to torture. 2. To bring great physical or mental pain upon (another). See Synonyms at afflict. 3. To twist or turn abnormally; distort: torture a rule to make it fit a case. [Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin tort¿ra, from Latin tortus, past participle of torqu¶re, to twist. See TORTUOUS.] --tor“tur·er n.
It's wrong!
It's against the Law!
It's immoral!
It's apparently a republican thing.
I mean, I'm just sayin'.
In the thick of it... from time to time. It occurs. Impeach these molatav cocktails and speak the Truth.
The Senate accepted double-talk and obfuscation from Mukasey during the confirmation process. Now that he's confirmed why should they expect anything different from him? The fools.
Thanks for posing this. I was hoping you would. Important stuff.
RayC @ 9:
Yes you are alone and however you cut the fucking mustard their or there is not wtf we are talking about, who gives a shit about grammar when our own country, the country I swore an oath to protect when I was in the Navy is eviscerating people on a daily basis like they were going to the store to buy a carton of mild, committing crimes of outrageous hubris calling it a war on terror and the casualties collateral damage. I don't like to snark, but my man you went way past the boundaries of acceptable with that comment.
kclaf @ 33:
shooting from the hip I would say that was a very poor choice of words, among the many he uttered, to use in a supposedly democratic country but it is an apt description of this administration because we all know that the thrust of their political philosophy has nothing to to do with democracy and everything to do with total control of all of us, if you doubt me look around.
Their arguments must always revolve around the same inane and immoral conclusion, that the ends justify the means. What else is there? The subject of the morality of torture has been explored by every civilization that recorded their debates on the issue, and it always comes down to whether you choose to be civilized, or not.
Michael Mukasey has chosen to side with those who have decided to be uncivilized thugs. He is no better than he claims our "enemies" are. At this point we are forced to admit that there is no difference between our morality and al Qaida's. They kill, we kill. They torture, we torture.
What differentiates the Michael Mukaseys from the Osama bin Ladens? Style points? Is Mukasey prettier?
Notice how all the torture defenders wind up sounding like Mafia lawyers?
Ken Brosky says:
"I absolutely can’t stand the simple grammatical errors on this site. It completely downgrades the professionalism. Am I along on this issue, seriously?"
Do you mean "alone" instead of "along"?
It is obvious that the committee has given Mr. Mukasey a pass. It is also obvious that someone had coached him on what he might or might not say. Yes, they are free independent thinkers, aren't they?
I saw the testimony, too. Obviously he's on a short leash. I'd like to know more about him. But he's better than the last one - at least he doesn't smirk when he says he can't recall. I sort of had the feeling there were some undercurrents of communication going on. Did anyone else catch that?
Welcome and Bienvenue to the Dark Ages Americana. The Statutes on torture are clear and unequivocal, and leave no justification ever, for any such "enhanced interrogations". This lying old BushBitch is there to say what he is currently saying: an endless projectile vomit of obfuscations, insane evasions, imaginary equivocations, and outright lies that claim the laws (US & INT'L) allow torture "if...." some circumstance is present, or "there might be..." some unknown good in the result, implying that the law sometimes permits the end to justify the horrific means. IT DOES NOT! This senile ghoul was approved by the groveling Senate, and vouched for by bootlicking Vichy Whore Democrats, who pretended to believe the current REGIME of gangsters would appoint anyone dedicated to upholding the Law, to the post of Attorney General! Every citizen of this country should be camped in their Congress Persons' offices, demanding the impeachment of this incompetent atrocity of a human. He has impeached himself, with his demonic testimony today, and any other time he's opened his lying mouth on this question. Torture is illegal. By his testimony, he betrays the fact that the junta is worried about the gallows, and has decided upon the simple solution of stonewalling all legal process with another neocon mole, who won't prosecute them, and will "reinterpret" the law to make their crimes legitimate acts of State.
Have you had enough yet? Or shall we wait for the mutilated corpses of our children, our troops, to come back to us, tortured to death, by captors who learned all they needed to know, from US.
And yet we have little useless weasels like Bob Mulholland working for the California Democratic Party kissing up to Feinstein, and condemning those of us trying to censor Feinstein.
My "Thank You" note:
Senators Feinstein and Schumer,
I hope that your heart is swelling with pride after yesterday's pathetic performance by Attorney General Mukasey before the Senate Judiciary Committe on January 30, 2008. Your previous capitulation on his nomination has now born fruit in the ongoing banality of evil that is the Bush Administration.
I hope you take pride of ownership in AG Mukasey's wonderfully delivered Nuremberg Defense regarding state sanctioned torture. Congratulations!
weldon @ 17:
That's what shocks my conscience. He normally isn't an idiot.
I was watching that testimony live and was screaming.
Talcott @ 14:
Yeah I am deluded and people didn't fly planes into the World Trade Center and Pentagon. Who's deluded?
I would like to hear Feinstein and Schumer answer whether they would have liked someone with Mukasey's equivocation regarding torture to have been in charge of Jewish interrogations at Auschwitz.
Joe O. @ 18:
I really wish the pacifist whiners would at least shut up while the one's who grew their stones actually do what is needed to maintain liberty and freedom for the rest of us.
clark @ 56:
Jack Bauer? Is that you?
dadams @ 24:
You should read a little history princess. We have had covert actions working to preserve our liberty and freedoms ever since the nation was formed. You think we didn't "finesses" information out of enemy combatants in either of the World Wars? I personally threw more than one VC out of a helicopter in Viet Nam to "entice" their cohorts to divulge information such as troop strenght and attack time tables. We who actually tasted the blood figured out talking nice didn't work.
If you haven't got the stomach for what it takes, why not sit back, pour a frappacino or whatever you dolls like to sip, and let the men do the dirty work? .
Is anyone surprised?
Look, Mukasey HAS to dodge and weave here.
IF he said, Yes, waterboarding IS Torture AND illegal under the treaties
the US signed, he basically would be saying: Senior Members of the Cabinet
ordered Felonies performed
Feinstien and the rest of them are also complicit, because the intelligence
committee, R and D, we're all briefed on this.
And, the point is, stall stall stall...
Cause, Bush is issuing a blanket pardon/immunity from prosecution
on his way out of office.
It stinks, but that is what is all going to come out of this.
Its time we cut through the BS and PC and acknowledge the obvious fact that this is first and foremost an AIPAC/JEWISH issue! Mukasey, Feinstein, Schumer, Lieberman, Horowitz, Kristol, Podhoretz etc, etc. Its time we stop pussyfooting around this major issue for fear of being labeled anti-Semitic.
Take a damn stand and start discussing the DIRECT ISSUE or we really are screwed. Quit being afraid of being labeled anti-Semitic and start speaking up.
Sorry, but SOMEBODY needed to say it -- the truth may not be PC, but it is the truth non-the-less.
"I don't think that's what I'm saying..." What a ridiculous thing to say. It implies that he doesn't know what he himself is saying.
Mukasey's application of moral relativity to the question of what constitutes a shock to the conscience - ie it would be okay to torture if we seek to gather information with respect to the location of an atomic bomb poised to go off - but what if we got it wrong. What if we had bad information? What if we are just torturing some poor schmuck who was in the wrong place at the wrong time? Which seems to be the case with most of our Gitmo detainees.
rastignac @ 55:
They would have collaborated with the Nazis.
I guess I don't understand what the point is in all this testifying and investigating that's going on in the House and in the Senate. Why are our representatives spending their time in this way? Is it just to get the information for historical purposes? Is it to get clarification on exactly how America is descending into a state of greater and greater aggression and oppression? Is it so they can make video mash-ups for entertainment and enlightenment? What's the point, since the vast majority of them are holding to the stance that impeachment would create more problems than it would solve?
Just as they have to listen to people like Mukasey explain to them things like at what point waterboarding leaves the realm of being an interrogation technique and becomes torture, how long will we have to listen to them explain to us how the Bush/Cheney administration has not yet reached the point of impeachment?
This is getting to be kinda like being in labor for years! It's waaayyy past time to get the baby outta there!
clark @ 54:
Yes, who is deluded indeed?
So, in your non-deluded state, when do you suggest the United States invades Saudi Arabia? Looks like they did plenty of damage without having WMD's. Wait, was that why we invaded Iraq? Because NOT having WMD's was why they were so dangerous? Sorry, you will have to bear with me in my delusional state...
mukasey was the judge in the case in which larry "pull it" silverstein was awarded $$$ for two separate 9/11 attacks.
see why the fascist neocons made him the go-to attorney general?
TOOL OF THE MAN.
and a shoo-in for hell, i'm guessing...
Ian McGarrett @ 62:
Thats the IRONY -- they're ALL Jews! Even Jewish Alan Dershowitz actually said torture indeed works because, look how well it worked for the NAZIS...
"There are some who claim that torture is a nonissue because it never works--it only produces false information. This is simply not true, as evidenced by the many decent members of the French Resistance who, under Nazi torture, disclosed the locations of their closest friends and relatives."
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010832
weldon @ 17:
Exactly, we will not forget Chuckie
Something about Mukasey's revised statement is very chilling:
"I mean the heinousness of doing it, the cruelty of doing it, balanced against the value…. balanced against the information you might get.” Information “that couldn’t be used to save lives."
Since you can't evaluate the information until after the torture, doesn't that imply you have to torture on faith? If you don't get information that warrants torture do you keep going until you get something that "balances" ?
On reflection I think I finally understand what the Bush Administration means by "faith based initiative"
Clark,
I'm glad to see that your type of "philosphy" has been rejected by every moral and religious philosphy on the planet. Except, of course for radical muslims, jews and even a dwindling number of Christianist Republicans.
Scientist and philosopher Max Planck said, "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it"
The world, I hope, will see the dying off of your philisophical brethren and America once again becomes the shining city on the hill that its founders envisioned. And just in case you don't get it, we will achieve that by being the moral leaders of the world once again, not by being jack-assed cowboys with the most money and the most guns.
Cheers,
cmh@cmhughesmd.com @ 70:
Just to keep it clear, I meant radical jews as in the ones Christianne Amanpour profiled in her "God's Warriors" special on CNN.
Cheers,
.
.
.
No. Bush and Co. have turned America into a country that tortures.
Most non-Americans do not make the distinction that you have made here. And it's time Americans start realizing that.
.
.
.
It's just the difference between a deontological or consequentialist approach to the issue.
A republican AG whose first loyalty is to the Bush family crime syndicate. I'm shocked! Completely stunned! Who would-a thunk it?
clark @ 10:
Dear Clark,
Actually we're in the midst of an occupation having already won the war (remember Mission Accomplished?) but I won't quibble with that part of your diatribe. Yes our soldiers are on a battlefield and if captured they are subject to the same acts of torture that we are now employing to gather intel. Of course if the United States doesn't torture that in no way prevents the opposition from not torturing our soldiers. But, the United States as the sole remaining Superpower and land of the free has always stood above the so called inhuman states of the world. How can we go to other countries and lecture them on humanity, compassion, and treating people with respect when we ourselves don't do it? So please, the next time an American soldier is captured and tortured keep your mouths shut because we have set the precedence. We ourselves do it and condone it so why shouldn't those heathens do it as well?
I'm retired military and at one time I considered myself a conservative. That was before this country was taken over and corrupted by the neocons that installed Bush as their puppet dictator. We invaded a soverign nation under false pretenses and to date have commited what I would consider genocide. I'm embarrassed by what this country has become solely because of what we could be instead of what we are now. This country is still a wonderful nation but bit by bit it is being eroded by the Bush ideology and unless drastic steps are taken the country we leave to our children won't be the same country I was born and raised in. So as you spout off about us liberals being assholes and reminding us that we are at war, step back and think what it is like on a battlefield fighting for something that is and always will be a lie.
Finally, it isn't that Bush turned the Republican party in to the party of torture. It is that Bush turned this country and its citizens into torturers by proxy.
Steve @ 26:
Yeh - dildo for me to?
Oh yeah, and to Clark@54, you say "I personally threw more than one VC out of a helicopter in Viet Nam to “entice” their cohorts to divulge information such as troop strenght and attack time tables. We who actually tasted the blood figured out talking nice didn’t work." I am not American so I may not get the picture but, how did that go for you?
"Senator" is a ceremonial title. We live in a monarchy.
clark @ 58:
Well this comment is the single most disgusting thing I have ever read in my life. Perhaps in your deluded bloodlust you may have missed the WWII Intel Specialists who determined early in the war that torture didn't work and found better ways to gather the intelligence needed to save the lives of Americans soldiers. Perhaps you've missed how the Eastern Block countries found techniques to gather information that were far superior to the CIA and DOD and none of those entailed torturing their subjects.
I'm a Vet that did the dirty work and never had to resort to bloodlust and throwing people out of helicopters like you Rambo. War isn't pretty and the no enemy is ever "nice" (not even us at times I'll give you that). By your definition we should resort to the same tactics as the Nazis because they did it too? If this is true then Clark, how do we differentiate between the good guys and the bad guys?
I don't consider you a troll because after 23 years in the military I know that guys like you are out there. That's why I hate to hear that all of our soldiers are hero's (though a vast majority are so don't trip off on that statement). Because like any profession there are the good ones, the bad ones, the brave ones, the cowards, the hard working ones, the lazy ones and everyone inbetween all the labels. There is dirty work in the military, but there should never be a place for people that torture another human being, even if it saves a life. One day it may be you being tortured and and that's bad because the bad guys are doing it right? I'll never understand that rationale and never will.
Finally, how many people from how many countries died on 9/11 (remember it wasn't just Americans in those towers)? How many American, Allies, and Iraqi civilians have died since Bush gave the order to invade the wrong country? Now, how many of the enemy have died since we invaded? In a war and occupation without uniforms and countries how do you know who the enemy is and how do you know when you've won? The War on Terror, The Never Ending War...
clark @ 56:
So... Terrorists engage in acts to cause fear to defeat their opponents. You, Clark agree to allow the American government to behave in un-American ways in order to prevent further terrorist attacks. Conclusion? The terrorists are winning because of cowards like you. You'd trade the greatness of what it means to be an American, what America stands for because you're afraid of another terrorist attack.
Me, I'm a patriot. That means I stand up for what America stands for no matter how big a threat is pointed at me. That's kinda what being a patriot is all about. It ain't about lapel flag pins and yellow ribbons.
Also lets be clear when you say "...while the one's who grew their stones actually do what is needed...", are you referring to the majority of the president's administration who went out of their way to avoid combat for a war they claimed to support back in the 60's? Just curious.
clark @ 54:
So who's the enemy in your war?
clark @ 58:
Your a dinosaur
Human's will learn how to go beyond war.
I ask, anybody who agrees with waterboarding -- where is the line that you won't cross? Lets face it, some of these "terrorists" die under interrogation -- did they die because they were actually innocent and had no information to give and wouldn't lie to save themselves from the abuse?
You realize we're now openly arguing whether torture is OK. We've already crossed the lines of media censorship and lying, free speech zones, domestic wiretapping and eavesdropping, naked x-rays -- soon we'll have our internal passports, etc, etc.
Opinions about 9/11 aside, even if the official story of 9/11 is entirely true -- it really wasn't a terrorist success... it was actually a giant government FAILURE. Terrorism has increased 1000% since we declared war on it -- and even still your more likely to get struck by lightning than die in a terrorist attack.
When I think of the United States, I tend to use the Star Trek analogy. For a fictional show, I think it perfectly represented what most Americans would consider ideal values and diplomacy. Capt Picard would never order someone to be "waterboarded" for information and they most certainly wouldn't preemptively attack another civilization. Capt Picard or crew members could occasionally be tortured by the "bad guys", but the Enterprise crew would NEVER cross that line themselves.
Then of course there was the Prime Directive...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Directive
clark @ 58:
LOL, that is the beauty of the internet... sometimes it is better than the movies, at least the shit that some people makes up is far more entertaining that all the generic trite coming out of Hollywood these days.
clark @ 10:
... actually only congress can declare war. It seems that I am not the only one who failed to notice a declaration of war having been issued in the past six or seven years, unless they really kept it on the down low.
So, we are technically not at war... thus the asshole is you.
I find it ironic, who it is usually some lazy lard asses suburbanite who wouldn't know the "frontline" if it jumped over his gated community and bite him in the ass.
They're using value to describe their torture. There is none.
So there you have it, America. A full confession. We torture people. Balanced against the possible "yield", torture is acceptable.
This begs the questions: How do we know, pre-torture, that a detainee has the information? If he/she doesn't, then we've tortured an innocent person. How do we know the information gotten was good information? We don't. Information gotten by torture is unbelievable, unreliable, and generally useless. Statistically, not only is it possible that a completely innocent person has been tortured IN OUR NAME, but guaranteed.
In lawless times, good people SHOULD be behind bars. All free persons in America are now officially criminals. Some are damn proud of it, too.
I can't wait until Bush-Cheney and all their flunkies are gone.
I am so ashamed of this country. I am equally ashamed of my citizenship.
Waterboarding comes AFTER this....
Strip search of woman (the VICTIM) by Sheriff's Deputies called outrageous
http://www.wkyc.com/video/player.aspx?aid=53707&bw=
Just imagine if she was a suspected terrorist.
It's not often that you see someone proudly claim to be a war criminal:
"I personally threw more than one VC out of a helicopter in Viet Nam to “entice” their cohorts to divulge information."
Did you get much information out of the guy you threw out of the plane. The guys left on the plane would likely tell you anything you want to here.Given how successful your strategy was in winning that war (oops) you might want to rethink your position. By the way, if the guy you didn't question but just threw out of the plane didn't know anything wasn't that just murder. The Pentagon has vehemently denied that any such incident ever took place and there is no statute of limitation on war criminals. Attention site monitors: you might want to give this persons personal information to some responsible journalists, perhaps even the authorities. Many human rights groups would doubtless be interested in this confession. Of course he is probably just a lying blowhard but you can never tell, maybe he is an actual murderer.
Login or Register to post comments.