One can deride Huckabee without 'scorning people for their faith'
In his latest NYT column, Nicholas Kristof returns to a subject he’s covered before: the unwarranted deriding of evangelicals.
At a New York or Los Angeles cocktail party, few would dare make a pejorative comment about Barack Obama’s race or Hillary Clinton’s sex. Yet it would be easy to get away with deriding Mike Huckabee’s religious faith.
Liberals believe deeply in tolerance and over the last century have led the battles against prejudices of all kinds, but we have a blind spot about Christian evangelicals. They constitute one of the few minorities that, on the American coasts or university campuses, it remains fashionable to mock.
Scorning people for their faith is intrinsically repugnant, and in this case it also betrays a profound misunderstanding of how far evangelicals have moved over the last decade.
I can appreciate Kristof’s point, but this is unpersuasive. First, the Huckabee comparison is flawed. Judging Clinton on her gender is ridiculous. Judging Obama on race and ethnicity is offensive. But when Kristof hears people disparaging Huckabee at cocktail parties, I suspect he’s hearing people mocking Huckabee’s ideas — which deserve to be fair game in the midst of a presidential campaign.
After all, the former Arkansas governor has been pretty far out there on the fringe. He rejects modern biology. He thinks wives should "submit graciously" to their husbands. He’s equated homosexuality with bestiality. He’s publicly endorsed “quarantining” AIDS patients; he’s boasted that God is directly helping his presidential campaign; and he’s said that if a man and a woman live together outside of marriage, they’re engaging in a “demeaning ... alternate lifestyle.”
And if the intelligentsia ridicule these beliefs, they’re guilty of “intolerance” and “scorn” for the faithful? It’s the moral equivalent of racism and misogyny? I don’t think so.
Yeah, we've seen how well theocracies have worked in other societies.....................
I don't understand why politians always pander to the religious nut cases. There are far more reality-based folks in the United States than the far right religious loonies. I'm waiting eagerly for the Rapture to come and take these bozos away!
People must keep their religion out of politics.
George Bush said God wanted him to go to war.
one can...but why not???
many try to say..."oh my faith is important to me!!" "it's my rock!"
BS!
it's a fairy tale drawn by man's ego maniacal self love!!!
"how could something as important as me be finite?"
"we are made in his image!" hahaha you know a human wrote those words!!
you can't be a progressive, a true progressive, unless you throw the chains of the first consumerism...religion
the link above says it all!
Right, we liberals are know for being tolerant. In this case we are not willing to tolerate the intolerance that goes along with evangelical Christianity.Many of us, gays like myself, are looked straight in the face every day by Republicans and told "you don't belong," "you don't deserve human rights," if not "you're intrinsicly disorded."
Ok. So the last one is the catholics. I just don't get it - how can you look someone in they eye and tell them God messed up when he created you. Or even that God didn't create you that way, you're messing with Her.
Bla. Republicans.
I don't give a damn about his religion, it's his beliefs that are off the wall. Okay that and anyone who would want that bizarre looking Chuck Norris in every picture with him, tells me he's a total nut case.
You don't get to choose if you are born male or female. You don't get to choose your race. You do get to choose what to believe and not to believe. Huck chose to believe some crazy shit and for that reason, his beliefs are fair game for discussion.
I am sympathetic to all, even those with self-imposed neurobioligical and psychological afflictions, such as substance addictions, irrational belief systems, etc. When those afflicted start imposing their irrational ideas on others is when liberalism needs to asserts itself. Plurality causes Americans to be united.
Demonic raisins, I rebuke you!
pissed off patricia @ 5:
Religion, beliefs, same difference.
I totally agree, it's silly to equate Huckabee's religious extremism with race or gender. Huckabee wants his particular religion shoved in everyone's face. Obama isn't running on a platform of, "black people deserve more rights than white people", and the same goes for Hillary Clinton and women. Huckabee is fair game.
What I don't understand is that we've reached a point where it's socially acceptable to denounce racial supremacy and groups that support it (such as the KKK), but when one denounces sectarian supremacy and groups that support it (such as the conservative evangelical Christians) it's considered "intolerance" by idiots like Kristof. Sectarian supremacy is just as much of a threat to our personal freedom as racial supremacy, and both should be derided equally.
The 'faithful' are deserving of every bit of it. Theocratic, brain dead, god fobbers who think the world should work according to a ridiculous morality play from 2000 years ago deserve every ounce of ridicule you can drum up for them. Deliberate ignorance is not admirable and should be discouraged if not openly disdained where ever it is found.
Practice that two faced shit in your six flags over jebus crystal circus tent but keep it the hell out of normal society.
Any time one of these rutting jebus lovers gets uppity about not getting the respect they think they deserve just start talking loudly about all the money that is lost by not taxing the churches. Watch 'em run.
The problem is that so many of the Huckster's ideas are based on his religion. And if we aren't allowed to criticize his religion, we aren't allowed to criticize his positions on issues. One of the central tenets of Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion" is that we should be able to question someone else's religion, especially when it impacts us.
And, to be fair, I also criticize Obama's religiosity. While he's better than the alternatives, I still don't feel that he'll represent me or other non-believers. Such is life as a minority.
If you don't let others hate, then you are accused of hating the haters.
To deride huckaloogy, wouldn't one first have to be riding him?
I can quit him.
Seems like a slam dunk conclusion, that is when one overlooks the subtleties.
Funny how people like Kristof criticize those who are intolerant towards intolerance. Rather than criticizing the intolerance itself. I guess as long as your intolerant beliefs are politically correct, than they're okey-dokey.
The ideas you list are all worthy of ridicule and mockery. What complicates it for Nicholas Kristof may be that the source for these looney ideas is the bible. So to mock the ideas, is to mock the bible, is to mock evangelicals.
People Who Don't Want Their Beliefs Laughed at Shouldn't Have Such Funny Beliefs.
"Intelligent Design" Helping Stupid People Feel Smart Since 1987
JESUS SAVES....You From Thinking For Yourself
Too Stupid to Understand Science? Try Religion.
Intelligent Design Makes My Monkey Cry
I remember once back in the 80's (big Moral Majority daze), this guy tried to convert me on the bus. I said, "No thanks, my gods are good enough for me."
They also don't like that I seem to know more of church history than they do. I'm no expert, but I can list various heresies and church councils.
They also hate it when you compare the Gospels to Grecian Dionysian thespian structure.
God is helping hockaloogy's campaign?
I didn't know He was Arte Johnson.
Of course a lot of them probably think thespianism is hot girl on girl action.
I'll tell you why liberals scorn evangelicals. Its not because of their specific beliefs, in this case Christianity, but rather its because evangelicals seemingly want the country and everyone in it to be evangelicals too. To compare evangelicalism to race or gender is stupid. Women don't want to pass laws to make everyone behave like women, black people don't want to pass laws to make everyone act like black people. Evangelicals however approach politics not as a mechanism to keep steady the ship of state by the best policy, but as a mechanism to make the country evangelical. It is creepy. We mock them out of fear. Is there any doubt that if this country turns overtly fascist, evangelicals won't be at the head of it?
I believe in tolerance right up to the point where someone is trying to ram their religious agenda down my throat. At that point, I become resistant. We're not hiring a "pastor in chief", we're electing a President who serves all American... including the ones who don't believe in magical beings in the sky.
Huckabee and his ilk can suck it.
Perhaps the Evangelical Industry should spend more time denouncing the kooks within their ranks starting with faith healers..............oh, wait, they all do that........never mind.
If Huckabee can talk about his religion, why can't anyone one else? He opened up the subject for discussion himself.
To Peaceful at comment 8, I have beliefs but I am not religious. My beliefs have nothing to do with any religion. There are also religious people who do not believe like Huckabee. I sincerely believe that religion and beliefs can be different. I believe that McCain is nuts, and that is not based on any religion, just common sense.
Hi, Patrica. You must have been watching the Scar show this morning. When I saw the interview with Huck and Chuck, it reminded me of a couple of yokels right out of the 1940s Orzarks. Their comedy routine did make me chukle a little.
ysbaddaden @ 19:
lol
Really? They hate that? I would have thought their reaction would be "Duh? Wha?" sorta like mine.
If Obama's mission was to turn everyone black, I'd have a problem with that.
If Hillary ran around insisting that the Founder Fathers were all women, I'd have a problem that, too.
When Huckster says stuff like this:
"I believe it's a lot easier to change the Constitution than it would be to change the word of the living god. And that's what we need to do -- to amend the Constitution so it's in God's standards rather than try to change God's standards so it lines up with some contemporary view."
...well, color me intolerant.
I have a blind spot for people who prey on human suffering, who take the widow's mite and put it toward their private jet, who use religion as a tax shelter, who snuff out the intellectual curiosity of their youth, who when someone asks for bread is given a stone, who uses their pulpit to persuade a congregation to vote against their own interests, who thinks fossils are the devil's handiwork.
To equate the above wretchedness with race and gender is lazy and stupid.
as soon as the evangelicals made their religious views indistinguishible from their political goals they made those religious views fair game in the political arena.
too bad for them.
Gender and race can't be changed, at least not without a lot of surgery!
Ideas, superstitions, thoughts that when enacted may bring harm to society these things can be changed by good arguments. The far right religious segment of the US population is moving in a very dangerous path. History has shown that governments based on religious principals DO NOT WORK, at least not for the benefit of the general population. In today's events we can see the failures of theocratic governments- hell it is in the news everyday. The American government has been scaring the US population with stories about how bad this situation is; having religious dictums with the power of government control life within a society.
This system of government has been rejected for hundreds of years and now the super superstitious are trying to wrest control of the government and make a society that lives up to the tenets of what they perceive 'god' wants.
Well in the past the Christian god wanted - slavery -stoning - human sacrifice
the subjugation of women and the list goes on and on and on.............don't even think that time has cured these unenlightened ideologies, time has done no such thing, listen to what the Huckabee's say on Sunday morning TV and listen to what he says and has said.........time, a good education, and a free society has done nothing to make these people operate their lives with the realm of common sense. A truly scary time in US politics and the religious right are the scariest of all the contenders.
jack foster @ 26:
I did watch it and I kept staring at Chuck. He was sitting there like he was dead and just propped up for the show. I became embarrassed for both of them for having to be in each others company. Freak show for sure.
When someone wants to make their choices my laws, you're darn right I'm going to have something to say about it.
Mel @ 29:
Well Said!
Yeah, those people who believe Jesus rose from the dead, every last one of them brain dead, weak, ignorant, superstitious, backwards.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0702/voices.html
Gee, once again some upper class ideologue makes some noise about how those OTHER pointy-headed in-tie-LEK-shuls are being unfair to religion, all in the VAIN hopes that somehow this will make him a TRU POPULIST among "the people".
Lame. This is what passes for getting out there with us common folk by Kristof types.
"you're all evil, sinful unrepentant bastardizations of God' true intent for humanity. You beieve in evolution and letting homosexuals practice their perversion in our homes & schools & our theatres where they charge too much for parking. OUR way is the only way. The only way to live in this world AND THE NEXT! GIVE IN TO OUR WILL! SUBJUGATE YOURSELVES BEFORE GOD!!!!'...and by extension, me and those of us who are among his favorites! REPEEEEENNNNT!!!"
"shut up, stupid."
" *gasp* Don't you DARE oppress me! Freedom of relgions! FREEDOM OF RELIIIIIIGIOOOOOONNNNN!!!"
Now, having gotten THAT outta my system, the irony of all the intolerant comments about people being intolerant of Huckabee's & Evangelical's intolerant (and intolerable) world view is not lost on me.
I will respect anyones religion as long as it doesn't give them an excuse to harm someone else. When you think about it religion has been used as an excuse by a lot of people to do a lot of harm.
There are people who do some very good things as a result of what they believe in the bible but sadly they are overshadowed by the lunatics with the lunatic agenda.
Pandagon had an entry a few weeks ago about the unbridled ego that most 'evangelicals' appear to suffer with.
The idea that they and what they think are more important than what anyone else thinks is important. That 'they', and only people 'like them' are going to 'survive and transcend' mortal death to be eternally saved.
It kind of makes 'religion' seem like a mental illness...
"Sectarian supremacy"? When you have 'religious' people actively planning for the 'coming of jesus' who is going to 'rapture' and 'save for eternity' his followers and they actively support and condone acts of aggression and think that this 'god' is going to save the planet from the pollution, wars and crime and that anything that they say is to be taken at face value then YES, HELL YES their views NEED to be derided and put in the light of the warped, unevolved, ego maniacal simpletons that they are!
The whole 'religious' game is incredible. You have 'faith' that covers everything like a blanket of ignorance. You have 'faith' that Bush knows what he's doing and by his labling himself with the 'man of god' moniker and wrapping himself in layers of 'prayer' and 'religious' language he deserves support? Hell, Hitler wrapped himself in patriotism and religion and look what that got the world.
Lets call religion what it is: A tool for controlling the masses and it works quite well. It will be interesting when the 'jihad' that Bush and his military/industrial/religious henchmen have been planning starts here in America. Why else 'christianize' the military and train them in combat situations in cities. Last I knew Baghdad didn't have much in the way of large buildings left. And insure that there is an almost religious zeal for gun ownership? Insure that everyone has a gun and a cause to use it...
Religion throughout history has been a largely negative force. Wars over 'religion' have resulted in the slaughter of more people than any other cause. Why do you think that there was a 'separation of church and state' put in the founding documents of this nation? If people can't see the need for it then they will probably end up dying because of it.
No one expected the American inquisition...
As for the other things that wooden headed religiosts believe, evolution is fact (everything evolves, except for you), the earth is just a planet (round too) is a fact, a single asteroid or comet could wipe us off the map is a fact, pollution is using up this planet at alarming rates is a fact, the planet will get to the point of not supporting human life is a fact, that some diety is going to come out of the sky and save a select group of people is just pure fiction and the sign of a mental illness.
If you want peace and security and a clean environment, work for it now because some nonexistant diety isn't going to come and clean it up for you and if you don't start soon (as in RIGHT NOW) there won'e be anything left to save.
ysbaddaden @ 19:
Myself, I like to remind the RC's about all the horror and injustice that the church has continually perpetrated. The Inquisition is a good one. The obvious and easy one is the abuse of little boys by the pedos in robes. More recently the rape and abuse of nuns by priests in places like Somalia and Ethiopia. Was it taken care of? You bet. Not a word of it anywhere.
Oh and did you hear ratzi the nazi's latest edict? Apparently he's going into the demon busting business. Says it's time to start "confronting satan" so he's revving up his new exorcist teams to go flush the world of satan's little helpers.
I imagine them reciting prayers while all the priests around them start to burst into flames.
Bush gets away with pretending to be a Christian because no one will question it.
I’m waiting eagerly for the Rapture to come and take these bozos away!
Me, too, and I'm a Christian. But people like Mike Huckabee are piss-poor representatives of everything Jesus Himself, stood for. They forget God is a God of free will and of CHOICE. If He'd wanted robotic worship, He'd created robots.
Instead, He created human beings like you and me.
Besides, when people like Huckabee get "raptured", we get all their stuff. ;-)
peaceful easy feeling @ 35:
Yes they are.
The fact that a 'scientist' has a religion means and proves nothing. Except perhaps that a PhD does not remove delusional thinking.
pissed off patricia @ 32:
Norris has had so much plastic surgery he can't move. Chuck is your typical Republican Hollywood type. They totally and completely suck at acting. And comedy.
pissed off patricia @ 38:
Yes, and that harm can be physical, mental, or social. Organized religion is stocked full of these harms.
I can guarantee you that Christian evangelicals would be the first to deride me for my Atheism and judge me for it. That is their choice, for like their beliefs i have chosen mine.
Religion is the original bully pulpit.
When "nearer my lord to thee" becomes "nearer to God than thee" religion becomes tribal and the sheep follows the shepherd.
Well isn't that the pot calling the kettle black. Most evangelicals I know are intolerant of anyone not exactly like them. Exactly why I left organized religion, huge bunch of hypocrites and weekend christians.
I love to hit them with this one:
"please explain to me if you are pro-life can you possibly be pro-war which is the antithesis of pro-life."
They all sputter and talk circles....
Norris has had so much plastic surgery he can’t move. Chuck is your typical Republican Hollywood type. They totally and completely suck at acting. And comedy.
That explains Ah-nold for sure, but what about Bruce Willis and Gary Sinise? They've sure been quiet...
And the whole state of California is split, thanks to Maria Shriver hopping on board the Obama bandwagon, while Ah-nold is showing love for McCain. Pass the Popcorn...
Nicholas is being a pandering asshat. Religious belief is a choice. Sex and ethnicity are not. People's choices are open to scrutiny and criticism. Huckabee's beliefs propose that the origin of our existance, why we are here and what we're supposed to be doing has already been figured out. It's a done deal. There is no room for improvement of the base knowledge, only individual improvement to capitulate to that base knowledge. It's a big fat lie and if anything religious beliefs should be mocked more.
That's because normal people don't distinguish evangelicals from muslim gihadists, and rightly so~
This is not a difficult one. Kristoff's analogy is not parallel. Women belong in American politics. Blacks belong in American politics. Religion does not and our constitution clearly prohibits it. No one is criticizing Obma for bringing Blackness into politics or Clinton for brining in Femininity..they have though been criticized for being a woman or black. The Huckster is being criticized not for the prediction that he might bring his religion into office but on the basis of having done so in the past: Dumond.
One man claims he sees and talks to God. The other man claims he never saw or talked to God. One man is a liar. Guess which one?
Huck's own intolerance of other religions is really becoming an issue as of late. His frequent swipes at Romney's faith should have been the topic of Kristof's article. Huck keeps repeating comments that imply Romney has "new found" religion, as if Romney is not a real Christian. I don't care if Huck or Romney are "real" Christians, but the intolerance of Huck is what really gets to me.
I remember when Sinad O'Connor tore up that picture of the Pope on Saturday Night Live 20 years ago which effectively ended her career. People were outraged. Yet the church has carte blanche throughout history to demonize and denounce women, blacks, interracial marriage, gays, people who didn't subscribe to a particualar religion, atheists, etc....yet no one dare take on the church or question religion! Well I will. Religion is myth. Taken on by those to ignorant to think for themselves who willingly allow the preacher and the politician to drive wedges between them and their fellow man for profit, control and power. Huckabee is part of the problem. He's an ignorant back water perpetuating the myth at best, or a charlatan using religion for political gain and power at worst. Religion is for the simple and weak minded. No one will be truly free until this form of slavery is eradicated from the planet.
MargeAggedon @ 43:
You're of course entitled to your opinion, but your comment proves nothing beyond your own obvious biases.
My very own ilk are evangelical Jew hating Israel loving schizophrenics.
That's right.
They hate Jews.
And they love Israel.
This is a formula rooted deeply in insanity. That's the evangelical "base".
When evangelicals like Huckabee stop trying to enshrine their religious beliefs in laws binding on the rest of us, maybe I'll be more receptive to arguments like Kristof's. As it is, I see nothing wrong with treating evangelicals with exactly the same withering contempt with which they're content to treat everybody else. The fact that one is tolerant means that he or she believes others should be allowed to voice their ideas without fear of reprisal, not that those ideas should be immune from criticism. I'm tired of fringe-dwelling conservatives mangling the language in their self-serving attempts to equate "liberal" and "tolerant" with "doormat." It's an attempt on their part to preempt criticism of their views because they know that in the free marketplace of ideas, they're peddling an inferior product.
Ruthless People @ 55:
Well said! I remember that SNL. Sinead was my baby back then. 3 Babies such a beautiful song. And you are absolutely on the money about hypocrisy. But I think Sinead just stopped writing/singing music for the masses.
John W @ 58:
The same goes for people who equate pacifism with "passivism." I am non violent. I am not a lamb.
40 MargeAggedon
I find it more effective in kicking them in the testaments.
Inquisitions they're less likely to listen to as being only Catholic and before their little sect.
Actually the inquisition was at it's worse (after they exterminated entire towns in Southern France to get rid of the Albigensians and their various spin-offs) in areas where Catholics and Protestants lived closer together. That would be areas like the German states and Switzerland. Citiees that were more uniformly Catholic like Spain and Italy had less problems.
Calvinist Protestants were incredibly violent in suppression. And technically the Protestant Oliver Cromwell started a whole war over the issue, even though King Charles was also Protestant. The Cromwellian army shocked the world when they beheaded King Chuck. Shades of Khaled Sheikh Mohammed here.
If you believe the Earth is 6,000 years old and that is what we should teach in schools, you deserve to be mocked. If some mental disease called faith makes you believe that, you should be pitied and the faith itself should be mocked.
You should not be a candidate for President of the USA if you are batshit crazy.
Ba'al @ 62:
I thought that was a requirement.
Let me get this straight: liberals shouldn't ridicule things that are truly ridiculous?
Ridicule is a powerful weapon. Ridiculing racism has made public expressions of racism, which were commonplace 50 years ago, publicly unacceptable.
Sorry, Mr. Kristof, but I intend to go right on ridiculing racism, bigotry, homophobia, authoritarianism, stupidity, warmongering, etc. etc. And I will not be deterred by the fact that most of these negative qualities come all wrapped up in the guise of religion or are supposedly demanded by somebody's Imaginary Friend, or must be practiced because of some idiotic book somebody wrote thousands of years ago.
Voltaire once observed, "Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
In fact, for most people other than psychopaths, that's the only way you CAN get them to commit atrocities.
Organized religions typically have a political facet. The high priests of various sects hope to control the behavior of the population by affecting the mores and laws of the states in which they function. Right wing churches are more malevolent in superimposing their judgments on the population. The tyrranical Muslim mullahs are an example of it abroad, and the evangelicals and conservative Christians and Jews are an example of it here. To the extent they want to impose their will on our laws, they should always be fair game in the world of politics.
Whine all you want, sex is not a choice; race is not a choice; religion is. I have no sympathy for those who sanctimoniously shroud themselves in religion while demanding dominance on the national political scene.
MargeAggedon @ 43:
Even though this thread is about hockaloogy, what about all those conservates trying to claim and hold against Obama a supposed Muslim upbringing? Is that not obvious prejudice.
Interesting thing about the resurrection, that no one speaks of, is that in three testaments Jesus was given vinegar to drink on the cross. Usually that's taught as a taunt by the Jewish crowd. But the Jews actually brewed a wine vinegar from mandrake that is called morion. The Jewish priest Josephus described the cultivation of mandrake. It had anesthesiac qualities. Whoever gave the vinegar to Jesus (real name if he lived at all Yeshua Ben Joseph), was trying to relieve his suffering.
Funny thing about morion is it can cause a cataleptic swoon. People would be taken down presumed dead, and revive later. Presumably after the shock of crucifixion they would die later. Could this be the real story of the resurrection and the ascension?
To me, Huckabee is no different than the Bin Ladens or Ayatollahs of the world. They always claim that "we are fighting them other there so we don't have to fight them here". Well, with people like Huckabee, we are fighting them over here. Huckabee is just another extremist that goes by a different religion but he is an extremist none the less.
Race and gender cannot be undone (well, except people do try to undo their gender...).
Faith is an assemblage of ideas in the head and - like a lot of ideas espoused by William Kristol - they often take a self-serving, mean, intolerant form.
When that happens, scorn is appropriate. Anger is appropriate. Hostility is appropriate.
We need to forcefully stand up against any faith that condones these kinds of intolerant statements:
“I think the radical view is to say that we’re going to change the definition of marriage so that it can mean two men, two women, a man and three women, a man and a child, a man and animal."
Mike Huckabee is spreading hate. The sooner he is out of the race, the better.
Actually one important question no one has asked hockaloogy is his stance on Dominionism, Dominion Theology, Christian Reconstructionism, Theocratic Dominionism, and Theonomy.
Some are so extreme they would put abortion providers and their patients to death, as well as homosexuals and witches (self-proclaimed and otherwise?)
Those they see as cults also include Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Seven Day Adventists and Unitarians.
Maybe like that one guy in Afghanistan people can be put to death for mocking the faith.
ysbaddaden @ 66:
Considering that there are others who literally pulled their mythos out of a hat I'd give it a very good chance of being closer to the truth if any of it actually ever happened at all.
Funny because liberals are guilty of this as well when talking about Muslims. Islamophobia nonsense stuff.
Anyway religion is a choice, a set of ideas, etc. It's nothing like race or gender which are innate.
Seperation of Church and State....jim jones,jim bakker,pat roberson and on and on.
ysbaddaden @ 61:
The catholics are the biggest group in my area. I'm completely surrounded by them and was unfortunately raised in their bizarre little cult so it is they I choose as the main target for my scorn. My husband's family are all southern xians making them too easy. Like fish in a barrel. They open their mouths and do all the work for me.
Ya know, it really doesn't matter to me WHAT his religion is. If he HAS a religion it deserves scorn and ridicule. Anyone who bases their world view and interaction on a superstition based "belief" system instead of the reality based universe has made a willful break with reality. In his case a PSYCHOTIC break with reality. And in his and SOOOOO many of the UUUberchristofacist believing crowd they are perfectly comfortable and willing, nay EAGER to suspend the civil rights of individuals that don't fit their "beliefs" mold of how one should live or love or SCREW! So YES, I have NOTHING but scorn ans derision, even ridicule for the clowns and meat-puppets who turn their brains off and insert superstitious based nonsense instead of reason and logic. Gee, do I sound intolerant of zombies? My bad.
Race and gender are not choices. Religion is. So is how you apply or manifest it. You absolutely can be judged on that, especially when you foist your interpretation of your beliefs on others.
Bill Maher said it best, albeit about radical Islam:
"Liberals -- Don't be so tolerant that you tolerate intolerance."
Same applies here.
Why is it that these people (i.e., "Christian" evangelicals) can call me every name under the sun yet any criticism of their beliefs is taken as "scorn for their faith"? And besides, what is wrong with that?
Is it wrong to have scorn for a "faith" that labels gay and lesbian people as evil and seeks to make them permanently second-class citizens in their own country?
Is it wrong to have scorn for a "faith" that claims to follow the teachings of the "Prince of Peace" yet rallies around a corrupt leader and his illegal war in which hundreds of thousands of innocent people have died and continue to suffer every day?
It is wrong to have scorn for a "faith" that not only doesn't believe in basic scientific principles and goes further by actually campaigning to have their mythology taught as fact alongside real science?
It is wrong to have scorn for a "faith" that seeks to overthrow our secular government and Constitution and replace it with a theocracy based upon their own narrow interpretation of scripture?
I have tremendous scorn for the beliefs of fundamentalist "Christians", yet I do respect their right to believe in whatever religion they choose - even if it seems silly to me. I do this while knowing that they wouldn't do the same for me and my ideas.
When people who dont know I'm Jewish hear me criticize Israel, I get accused of being anti-semitic. I tell them "I'm not anti-semitic, I'm just anti-apartheid." Political application of your religious beliefs is always fair game, so is illegality in the name of religion. Catholic priests -- finally -- didn't escape diddling kids, did they?
Jeff @ 76:
Bill Maher needs to read this.
FOX is State Sponsored TV @ 57:
Dont worry, the Jews hate them back. :-)
www.jewsonfirst.com or the Babylonian Talmud.
Let's see - Obama's dad was black, and there's nothing he can do about that. Hillary was born XX, and there is nothing she can do about that. Huckabee believes that his imaginary friend invented the universe. BWAHAHAHAAAAA. What an idiot. Sorry, but Huckabee made a choice in believing these fairytales from ancient goat herders. I feel perfectly justified in mocking and laughing AT Huckabee and any other dope who buys into that nonsense.
I'm shrinking...shrinking...s-h-r-i-n-k-i-n-g....
Apparently, Kristof thinks deriding the resisdents of NY and LA for what they theoretically MIGHT say at a party is OK.
They constitute one of the few minorities that, on the American coasts or university campuses, it remains fashionable to mock.
Scorning people for their faith is intrinsically repugnant, and in this case it also betrays a profound misunderstanding of how far evangelicals have moved over the last decade.
Oh... you mean like Gays right? Yes the poor persecuted evangelicals with all that free faith based initiative money, and the conservative assholes in SCOTUS and the President who has bent over backwards to kiss their asses.
Poor persecuted evangelicals. It must be so hard in those gulags we've put them in and the ghettos they're forced to live in.
Screw the evangelicals. They're the ones that got us into this mess in the first place.
This will be one of Huckabee's hallmarks I bet if he is elected President. I'm sure it will be great fun for the whole family!
Joan of Arc - Recanting and burning scene
http://youtube.com/watch?v=w5EIsrZuczk&feature=related
For most people (children), religion is NOT a choice. It's imposed on them by their parents. By the time the children are old enough to make a choice, their brain has been scrubbed clean by their parents. This is the case for many, not all. But I will argue that religion is, almost every time, not a choice.
Religion isn't necessary. If Huckabee believes in whacko things, he should be completely humiliated about it. Picked on, laughed at. But by NO means should be be respected for it. I'm not a terribly smart person. There are many, many highly intelligent religious people. But those same people are fools on that subject.
*shrug* I agree with Mr Kristof.
A few months ago, several liberal MBs and blogs I visit had a high old time ridiculing a site that marketed "modest swimwear" for young girls of faith, presumedly Christain evangelicals. And that ridicule spilled over to the appearance of the children wearing the swimwear. I thought "oh swell, now we're mocking CHILDREN for how they look and dress?".
I've also been amazed at the NYT's editorial board's inconsistency in not agreeing that the pro-choice mantra of "their bodies, their choice" should also apply to some evangelicals' desire to not be vaccinated (although that may have more to do with Big Pharma's ads).
Disagree all you want with their public policies (I sure do), but don't become what you hate.
Just doing my ditty:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCCR2huE2m8
it's one thing to be a person of faith...it's an entirely different thing to be a right wing neocon christofacist......the decent people of faith just sat there and kept their mouths shut while the right wingnuts spewed their bs....they could have spoken out but no.....they just sat their and kept their mouths shut...until very recently(and even then.....their numbers are very small)...all the more reason to keep church and state separate.All I have too say is Keep your faith out of my Govt.....and we'll get along just fine.
"Disagree all you want with their public policies (I sure do), but don’t become what you hate."
This is a very good comment, and I agree with what you say. To make fun of Huckabee about his looks and then blame his looks on his religion would be stupid. Just like the children in the swimwear should not be made fun of based on their appearance. Not to mention the probable fact that their parents are making them do the ads.
Huckabee revolves so much of his policies around religion. It's fair game to make fun of his religion and the fact that he holds it so close.
Just look how intolerant evangelicals are of liberals.
Liberals believe that religions should be tolerant of each other, but liberalism is also the process of challenging and reforming the dominant, conservative belief system.
If you want your beliefs to be exempted from criticism, you have to keep them private. If you express them publically, they become political opinions and are fair game.
It's fashionable to mock evangelicals because most of the time they tend to be assholes.
saying religion has no place in politics is not nearly the same as saying a woman/african american shouldnt be president. what a horrible comparison.
I guess the real question is:
Are backwards-thinking, intolerant evangelicals born that way, or is it a choice?
"DON'T TREAD ON ME."
"Liberals believe that religions should be tolerant of each other..."
This is true, but some religions cannot, by their very core meaning, be tolerant of each other. This is especially true for the Islamic faith. It's dangerous. It's not tolerant of anything not following the Koran.
Seriously, just write about about it. Draw a cartoon about it.
Born Again.
If HRC was a woman by choice, a born-again woman, or BO a born-again african american, I could see the comparison...
you mean ideology is not innate?
;)
Actually, I think people SHOULD be scorned for their faith. Just look at the history of religion for the past 3000 years. Think Dark Age, Inquisition, murdering abortion doctors, and on and on and on. You've got faith? I'm scorning . . . big time.
"Are backwards-thinking, intolerant evangelicals born that way, or is it a choice?"
Some are born again that way.
@NYhippie
Who said anythong about hate? This is about getting these sorry people out of our business. Smoke another one, dude. Go ponder yourself into a corner why don'tcha~
Evangelicals are the ones who seek out others to judge them and spread hate. Not me. It is always about their hypocrisy, so this there will always be a double standard because frankly our judgment is better than theirs since it is based here in reality. This is at the heart of all these posts.
Who's having all these cocktail parties? I've lived in California all my life and the only alcohol-themed parties I've ever attended were keggers.
His point about Huckabee's fundamentalism being off-limits is ludicrous, for reasons already explained by other posters-- so I'll just mention a form of bigotry that's much more widely accepted than mocking evangelicals:
Southern bigotry. We've got a President who feels comfortable going onto national television and deriding his opponent for being a "northeastern liberal", for being from Massachusetts, etc. *That* is some bigotry that needs to go, and yet is totally accepted-- not at some "cocktail party", but right out in the open.
Let's ditch that crap before we start crying for the bigoted religious lunatics.
I don't like posting a 'me too' comments, but this one bears repeating, over and over again:
RACE AND GENDER ARE NOT A CHOICE. RELIGION IS.
Anyone who doesn't understand that is not qualified to comment on any of them.
Scy @ 98:
I agree. That so called nice religious person that was rising to that position usually ends up being less nice once in power and their God(s) that they say they speak to usually become more tyrantical and more sadistic as time goes along.
seems a good deal of this comes down to that fact that gender and race are NOT matters of choice; one's faith is.
when we watch someone intentionally choosing magical beliefs, abandoning reason for fairy tales, and then waxing not just condescending but downright hypocritical, it's a bit difficult to take them seriously in any kid of debate or discussion.
for us thinking reality based libruhls, it's so easy to see that distinction.
but then, huckabee and his ilk have chosen not to make such rational observations.
Fighting hatred with hatred accomplishes very little except to perpetuate the fighting. Its not about winning. Its about teaching our society a better path based on reason, consideration and respect for the practially infinity ways we can choose to live our lives.
I do think that is often missed by most folks and has once again been missed on this site.
CBS' 60 Minutes had a section about mormons last night - they all look alike, like they came off an assembly line. That is how they are taught to conform - things they can't do and things they must do.
Basically the same thing applies to all god-based religions, except for the sacred undergarmets, that is mormonistic.
Apalling that some believe that. That explains Orrin Hatch.
ooh, spooky; anonymoo and i were making the same point at the same time.
pretty cool
FOX is State Sponsored TV @ 100:
And they'll think that their judgement is better because it's based on faith and divinely directed.
And that's just fine - there's plenty of room in my world for folks with both attitudes. And we can argue and spar about how those attitudes should translate into public policy. And where we agree we can join forces and where we disagree we can do it with respect and tolerance.
That's all I'm sayin'....
"Fighting hatred with hatred accomplishes very little except to perpetuate the fighting."
I haven't said anything about hating. Huckabee's religion is stupid. The fact that someone thinks it's wrong to ridicule Huckabee because of his religion is also stupid.
Religions give safe haven to hate. That should not be tolerated. Why, tell me why, would you want to tolerate that?
Yes, but, they started it. We would never know about hate-filled evangelicals if they had stayed out of our business.
Hippies certainly don't seek to change evangelicals the way evangelicals do the rest of us.
Your tolerance is indeed tolerating intolerance.
"RACE AND GENDER ARE NOT A CHOICE. RELIGION IS."
You must also include other qualities, such as sexual orientation, national origin, disabilities - if not self inflicted.
not to mention all the speculation they spread.......I would consider that....."Bearing False Witness"...that's one of those commandments.hypocrits
Dale @ 99:
HA HA!
Race and gender are two things you cannot control about yourself. You can control your religious beliefs, and as such, one can make value judgments based on your belief in a sky fairy.
As an atheist, I refuse to vote (let's pretend for a moment that voting actually matters) for anyone who doesn't think critically enough to respect the gains science has made in the last 100+ years. That doesn't mean I will never vote for a theist, though. If the candidate matches up well with me and shows an open mind to everything including science, that's fine.
Huckabee is on a whole 'nother planet. He is a religious fanatic cone cuckoo. And I have no doubt in my mind that if he defies the odds and wins the '08 Presidency, he'd do everything in his power to turn this into a Christian nation.
When those Republicans raised their hands at the debate and admitted to not believing in evolution, I just completely lost my respect for their opinions.
There are just some beliefs that do not deserve respect. Evolution has essentially been proven as fact, yet for some reason, our under-educated American masses and God-fearing and God-pandering politicians continue to deny these realities. And theistic belief can mesh with belief in evolution, you just can't be a strict adherent to the Bible and believe that every word in it is inerrant.
I'm puzzled that Kristof, who has spent time covering China (he authored 'China Wakes' with his wife, Sheryl WuDunn), can't see the parallels with the evangelicals wanting their view of God plastered everywhere. Insisting on school prayer and the Ten Commandments in classrooms, courthouses, and other public displays isn't far removed from Communist China and everyone marching about with their Little Red Book.
The Biblical aphorism, 'Judge not, lest ye be judged in the same measure,' is the lesson to be learned here. Evangelicals and uber-Christians want the privilege of judging us according to our lifestyles and beliefs (or, rather, the fact that we seem to be living happy and productive lives without drinking the kool-aid), but when that comes back around in their faces, we're evil, bad, horrible, intolerant people.
lll @ 107:
Oh wow...cosmic!
Ahlyssah @ 92:
They attempt to be assholier than thou.
"There are just some beliefs that do not deserve respect. Evolution has essentially been proven as fact, yet for some reason, our under-educated American masses and God-fearing and God-pandering politicians continue to deny these realities. And theistic belief can mesh with belief in evolution, you just can’t be a strict adherent to the Bible and believe that every word in it is inerrant."
Nice comment. There are beliefs that do not deserve respect. I must know, though: Are there any candidates this year that you would vote for? I was excited about Howard Dean a few years ago because he announced his candidacy at a Unitarian church. But even Dean, before the end of his run, felt the pressures of the religious masses and began showing up at churches. I was saddened by that.
huckabee is part of the fucking reichwingnut neocon religious crazies.
he and his far-right group are fascists.....bottomline
it they want to discuss intolerance, then they need direct that
one-sided conversationmonologue in the mirrow.get a life and stop sucking jesus koolaid.
A sizable group of adults in this country believes that "God did it" is a scientific theory and the world is 6000 years old.
That's ignorance. Plain and simple. Of course, it's bigoted for an agnostic or atheist to come out and call an uneducated, anti-intellectual hick "stupid hick".
That's why we should settle for "God told me you're a stupid hick". That way, when the flat-earthers whine, we can accuse them of “religious intolerance”.
But even then, I doubt the flat-earthers would be able to make the distinction between ridiculing someone's views because they are moronic, and ridiculing someone's views because they insist on invoking the almighty with every waking breath.
Wankers.
Who sez there's no new job developments?
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/02/04/vinci.vatican.exorcist...
Let's compare ...
Here's what JFK said about religion and politics:
I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute--where no Catholic prelate would tell the President (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishoners for whom to vote..."
Here's Huck:
“I believe it’s a lot easier to change the Constitution than it would be to change the word of the living god. And that’s what we need to do — to amend the Constitution so it’s in God’s standards rather than try to change God’s standards so it lines up with some contemporary view.”
Now imagine Huckster at his inauguration, with his hand on the Bible, swearing to uphold the Constitution.
Anyone who doesn't see what's wrong with that picture is being willfully naive.
If "Liberals believe deeply in tolerance," why are they, and repbulicans, trying to take our free speech and other rights away?
I think Huckabees 'faith is what makes him a dangerous man. Even more so than George Bush. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against faith, it's organized religion that bothers me. Having faith in God and giving God credit where credit is due is one thing. It's another to use faith to fulfill political or personal agendas. Power, money or political clout. George Bush merely used God and pretending to be 'born again' to gain the trust of the country. After that trust was gained we got the Patriot Act, suspension of Habeas Corpus, unwarranted wiretaps and legalized torture. Can you imagine a guy who lived organized religion as a preacher in the most powerful (cough, cough) office in the land?
Is it just me, or does Kristof praise the evangelicals but does only does it in broad terms with no specifics? For example, he says how helpful they are with the AIDS crisis, but he doesn't specify what exactly they do in regards to AIDS and how their so-called benefits translates to numbers. Just wondering...
Anonymoo @ 102:
This is an odd meme to find throughout this thread.
What does choice have to do with this discussion?
It reminds me of the anti-gay argument: Being gay is not like being black or being a woman. Being black is not a choice. Being a woman is not a choice. But being gay, or at least acting on one's homosexual impulses is a choice. So it's completely valid to be against gay people.
Now, of course, being gay is not a choice. But even if it were, what difference would it make? Whether a state of belief or being is a choice, it seems to me, has nothing to do with whether that state is normatively good or a valid topic for consideration when electing a president.
Aside from the fact that it might be hasty to assert that we can choose our beliefs any more than we can choose our sexual orientation, think of the myriad weird implications of the argument:
If Huckabee's beliefs were not chosen by him, would they suddenly demand respect?
If human beings could choose to be black or choose to be female, would choosing to be either one be wrong?
If a paranoid schizophrenic were to run for the presidency on a platform of defeating the galactic mollusks intent on eating our brains deserve serious consideration because he had not chosen to suffer his psychiatric affliction?
Huckabee's religion warrants scrutiny on its own merits. We don't (or shouldn't) criticize black people for being black because there is nothing wrong with being black, and there is nothing relevant about being black when it comes to picking a president. Same goes for being female, gay, transgendered, short, bald, disabled, etc.
Is there something wrong with being an Evangelical Christian? Morally wrong? No, though I would agree with many people here that all religious faith is delusional, and ultimately pernicoius. But certainly plenty of Evangelical Christians are splendid people. My hostility toward faith does not translate to hostility toward people of faith. Kristof seems not to understand the distinction.
Is Huckabee's religion relevant to his campaign for the presidency? To the extent that it will influence his actions as president, absolutely! Not to mention that Huckabee himself has offered his religion as a reason to vote for him. The man's theocratic ambitions are only slightly more veiled than Randall Terry's, and his speeches have embraced antidisestablishmentarianism. (Ever think you'd actually see that word used?)
Did Huckabee choose to be an Evangelical Christian? Heh, I'm sure there are philosophers on both sides of that academic question. But for purposes of his running for president, I couldn't care less.
"Having faith in God and giving God credit where credit is due is one thing."
Giving god credit for anything, no matter how small, shows ignorance, no matter how small.
It just goes to show that there are only two regular op-ed writers for the Times that are not complete and utter morons. (three if you count frank rich).
Deriding someone over their religion is very different than deriding someone over race/gender. Last time I checked you don't get to choose your race or gender. If I choose to believe in Santa Claus and wanted enact enact naughty and nice laws because Santa told me I should do that. I would expect to get derided and chided quite publicly. Why is this any different?
Cat Atomic @ 101:
Ain't like ya'll Yankees are immune to that, what with tarring all Southerners with the Klan-Christofascist-Lynching smear. But of course, Southerners like me cannot be anything but racist, since after all, Christianity=racist-foam-at-the-mouth-fnorders.
Take the log out of your eye before removing the plank from ours.
Note- I am an evolution-accepting, aint-fundie, pro-tolerance Christian. I'm also a Southerner. Judge not lest you be judged.
General_Rennenkampf @ 131:
I'm all that minus one god. And I appreciate your type, but I don't get the god part.
General_Rennenkampf @ 130:
Ahhhh, check me if I'm wrong on this, and I say this as one who was BORN in Texas, The Klan, christofacist-lynchin thingy IS KINDA LIKE A SOUTHERN THING!!! How come alllll them thar UUUUberchristofacists like Pig Robertson and Donny WILDman and all the rest of those closet butt pounders are from places like Tuplo Mississippi or Apalachicola Florida?
General_Rennenkampf @ 130:
Indeed, the regional prejudices go both ways.
It also remains standard practice on liberal blogs' commentary section to mock people whose appearance or behavior does not conform to what society expects of their sex. (Few threads, if any, about Ann Coulter do not mock her for her perceived transgendered status.)
There are bigotries against rich people, people with mental diseases, etc.
Not only are Evangelicals not the last remaining minority to suffer slurs, but we are all prone to acting on our prejudices now and then.
Mmmm... Flat earthers.
secularhumanizinevoluter @ 133:
The point was not that people not from the south are the ones who are actually members of the KKK or like organizations (though I imagine some of them are). The point was that not everyone who lives in the south is a bigot. To think that all southernors are bigots is itself bigotry.
Most organized "faiths" deserve to be scorned. "If you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way". And if you insist others believe likewise, don't be surprised when push comes to shove.
"Judging Clinton on her gender is ridiculous. Judging Obama on race and ethnicity is offensive."
Why isn't judging Clinton on her gender offensive & Obama on his race/ethnicity ridiculous? Ridiculous = offensive? Not quite. Not even close. Unfortunately, misogyny is still just "ridiculous" so it's okay to laugh when a McCain supporter asks McCain how they can stop the bitch. "Bitch" is just a "ridiculous" word that's not "offensive?"
For evangelical politicians, it isn't even about "God"... it's about intolerance, power and control.
"traditional values" or "family values" = intolerance of gays, minorities, immigrants, other religions
Their power base lies in the homophobes, jingoists, racists, and religionists.
LPD @ 138:
I think you're reading a little too much into Steve Benen's choosing not to repeat himself. I am sure that he would readily agree that each is both ridiculous and offensive.
The entire foundation of Christianity is based on violence and power.
The Christian God raped an innocent, virgin, married, woman and gave her a bastard son named Jesus.
And Christians want to dictate "proper" relationships.
Or they point out their moral superiority via the message of Sodom and Gomorroh while conveniently leaving out the end of the story. After God destroys two entire cities and kills Lot's wife, Lot, god's protected one, goes on to get drunk and screw both his daughters.
And Christians want to dictate "proper" relationships.
Let's make a deal; keep your religion out of our bedrooms, out of our government, and out of our public schools and we won't have sex in your churches. You, of course, still will in all your glorious hypocrisy.
130 General_Rennenkampf
Actually the quote goes, "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"
Matthew 7:3
"God is my favorite fictional character."
Homer
NYhippie @ 108:
Oh come on. There is no room on this planet for some of the ideas that evangelical "Christians" have. All gays should burn in hell? That is an idea worth having, eh?
I am sick and fucking tired of respecting religious beliefs. We don't have to. I don't and won't tolerate some monkeyball idea that the world was created in 7 days and is 6.000 years old. I will not tolerate the idea that a woman cannot choose to terminate a pregnancy she does not want.
We have tolerated the fuckos for too long. They sure as hell do not tolerate nor respect any view that differs from theirs. Can you hand on heart say that Huckabee has some good ideas worth listening to? I love that in America, anyone can run for President, no matter how fucked up he or she is. However, for us to tolerate someone who's beliefs contradict the very law our country was founded on, as they say here in Britain, pull the other one mate.
Oh yeah, lest we forget
Praise Bob!
me_over_here @ 143:
Nicely put.
greg white @ 141:
They leave out a lot more than the end. When the unruly mob requests that Lot turn over his heavenly visitors so that they might rape them, Lot offers them his daughters to rape instead.
Adam was made from dirt. Eve (depending on which chapter of the Bible you're reading) was made from Adam. So Eve is Adam's clone. How's that for incest?
And speaking of incest, how exactly did Adam and Eve go about populating the world? Of her named children, they're all male. Did they sleep with their mom? Or did Adam and Eve have all sorts of kiddie who reproduced with one another?
Hee hee. I have an actual deal to make with all the "creationism deserves equal time in public schools" folks. I'll go along with it if every church that receives faith-based-initiative funding gives evolution equal time in its sermons and Sunday schools.
Three issues here.
First, beliefs are choices, race and gender are not.
The second issue is the inferences that can be drawn based upon race, gender, and beliefs.
Inferences about a person's mental capabilities, leadership capabilities and character based upon race and gender have been shown to be wrong repeatedly. Inferences such as these are not factually supported and are evidence of racial and sexual prejudice.
Inferences about a person's mental capabilities, leadership capabilities and character based upon beliefs can be valid. Most people would suspect a candidate that said the constitution should be modified because they believe in elves.
Finally, the root issue is not about the beliefs that Huckabee chooses to live by, the root issue here is whether Huckabee gets to choose the beliefs that I live by and I choose no.
The color of a black man's skin doesn't necessarily cause him to do things like rail against making condoms available in high schools and trying to outlaw abortion all while driving around in a car with a "can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em" bumper sticker and trying to keep a straight face.
Femininity has yet to cause any women that I know to make attempts at removing evolution from science classes or attempt to add creationism cloaked in non-science called Intelligent Design to the curriculum in public schools.
I have yet to meet the fundamentalist christian who understands why doing those things mentioned above is wrong.
When they stop scorning me for my preference for reality based government and deriding me for my atheism, I will consider no longer scorning them for their faith.
beerm @ 147:
I still don't understand what that has to do with anything.
Dale @ 118:
No. If you held a gun to my head and ordered me to pick one, I'd probably go for John Edwards.
Sucks for us Americans that this country is run not by politicians but by the business interests that control them. Voting is meaningless until this changes.
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