CIA Chief Officially Admits Use Of Torture, Names Detainees
By Logan Murphy Tuesday Feb 05, 2008 5:39pm
CBS:
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CIA Director Michael Hayden publicly confirmed Tuesday for the first time the names of three suspected al Qaeda terrorists who were subjected to a particularly harsh interrogation technique known as waterboarding, and why.
"We used it against these three detainees because of the circumstances at the time," Hayden said during a Senate hearing. "There was the belief that additional catastrophic attacks against the homeland were inevitable. And we had limited knowledge about al Qaeda and its workings. Those two realities have changed."
Hayden said that Khalid Sheik Mohammed - the purported mastermind of the 9/11 terrorist attacks on the United States - and Abu Zubayda and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri were subject to the harsh interrogations in 2002 and 2003. Waterboarding is an interrogation technique that critics call torture. Read on...
Senator Dick Durbin has called on the Department of Justice to open a criminal investigation , but in a press conference today, Deputy White House Press Secretary Tony Fratto said the U.S. would consider waterboarding again under the right circumstances. And the ACLU has demanded an independent investigation, since the DoJ investigating themselves is a questionable proposition. Contact your representatives in the House and Senate and tell them how you feel about it.
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I'm shocked, shocked
We don't torture...President Gas said so!
Wow...we had to go back to the Salem Witch Hunts to figure out how to deal with....what?
What progress.
Only used it 3 times ? YEH RIGHT, also the waterboarding is nothing compared to what they've been doing, i like it how they make it ALL about waterboarding, what about raping suspects with foreign objects etc ?
Abu Zubayda was schizophrenic.
One other thing Hayden said yesterday was that both military people and contractors did these interrogations. When pinned down a little he said probably more were done by contractors than military.
So are these blackwater dudes who have been doing this and if not, who are the contractors with?
I thought water boarding was illegal, period. By outright admitting it, doesn't someone have a legal case? If they are indeed waterboarding, what other torture might they be doing? I doubt it stopped there.
Harsh interrogations at Miniluv!
Yes, in regards to waterboarding, we finally know who, where, when, why, and what we got from it.
But there is more to the story, per the following link to a credible MSM source:
http://www.sptimes.com/2007/12/09/Worldandnation/Lawmakers_aware_of_wa.s...
Not only were key congressional leaders briefed on the use of these tactics, but some even wondered if we should push harder.
The bottom line is:
- the use of waterboarding was debatable when first proposed.
- key congressional leaders were briefed about the tactic.
- waterboarding was put into extremely limited practice.
- upon further discussion/debate it has been deemed to be torture.
- the USA does not torture, so waterboarding has been declared illegal.
In my view it's senseless for people to continue stirring this pot. A poor judgment was made under duress, but it was subsequently reversed before a huge amount of damage was done. Let's learn from it and move on...
Yep. Anytime you think you may have some traction in attacking Bush on any issue, he just brazens it out and pisses on you. No matter what else Bush may believe in, he is never going to let anyone get anything over him. A spoiled, petulant frat rat whether playing pick-up basketball or dealing with the future of the world. No one plays Georgie Bush.
Now, who's going to have the nerve to do something about this?
“There was the belief that additional catastrophic attacks against the homeland were inevitable. And we had limited knowledge about al Qaeda and its workings. Those two realities have changed.”
The homeland?! Where have I heard that term before?... that's right Nazi Germany.
For crissake people!!! WTF??
We're the new nazi's GET USED TO IT.
preemptive wars, foreign occupations, torture ? .... all favored by the 3rd reich.
peaceful easy feeling @ 7:
What evidence can anyone cite that shows we learn from these mistakes? (I won't bore you with the list of things that we supposedly learned from.)
How did we ever get here?
The dog knows.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUWaffZCjhI
Chimpeach.
peaceful easy feeling @ 7:
Think that would work for me if I robbed a bank? I could just say I used poor judgment and I was under duress since I needed some money. Then I could give back the money and learn from my mistake and move on. Don't think it works that way when you break the law
The real question is how many cases of torture were outsourced. They would be off the books of course.To paraphrase Bill Clinton they would say, under oath, "I did not torture..(fill in the blank)
At the end of World War 2 war crimes trials were held in Japan. Soldiers were convicted of war crimes for waterboarding Allied POW's.
Can someone please tell me what the difference is between what happened then and what the us goverment is doing now? To me this is the ultimate hypocracy
Ugh, "the homeland." Can't we just call it "the country" or "our country"?
The information the United States government received after they used torture amounted to nothing at all substantial. This fact has also been documented. None of the people tortured by the United States has led to any useful information at all, which has been more than documented.
right on! @ 9:
Ask Richard, his hair was on fire, Clark, if he knew anything about how al Qaeda worked.
Ask Condi why the hell didn't she pay attention to him when he tried and tried to tell her the biggest thing she needed to think about was an al Qaeda attack.
I call bullshit on Hayden.
'The chief of intelligence for Al-Qaeda in Iraq today defended the organization's policy of torturing American detainees.
'"Considering that one million Iraqis have died since the US invasion, we feared that more catastrophic attacks were planned", he said. "And anyway, they did it to us. What goes around comes around. So there."'
Support the troops. Arrest a Republican today.
Bottom Line: Republicans will lie and spin anything even when its obvious they have broken the law.
I wonder how many people actually trust the government and what they are being told. Where is that poll?
Bush the Liar @ 21:
Probably about as many as support bush today.
So now that we know this what are the Judiciary Committees of the House and Senate going to do? If this isn't impeachable, I don't know what is.
Someone tell my why did we work so hard for a Democratic majority if they won't hold Bush accountable?
JTM @ 11:
How naive can you be? 3 cases of water boarding my @$$. Our government is so damn corrupt it's pitiful. I'm waiting for the day when they start pulling books off the shelves because they might "poison" our minds.
I would like to move on right now without Bush and Cheney. If this is our future, where are my drugs? They passed them out in George Orwell's 1984.
pissed off patricia @ 19:
...everybody say yeah!
Yeah (that's esme-my-hair-is-still-on-fire seconding patricia :)
Mike the Canuck @ 16:
There is no difference and I agree with you that it is the ultimate hypocracy. Now, what do we do?
"We do not torture"
Bush lie # 3,474.
File charges now. File charges now. I repeat. File charges now.
The pattern is clear. We don't tap phones without a court order. We tap phones without a court order. We don't torture. We tortured.
File charges now.
bush just considers it torture if he interrupted from getting intoxicated every night and that
the business of the United States interferes with his bedtime at 9pm.........
I really, really dislike the term Homeland.
It is so totalitarian sounding isn't it?
What a crock. First like many have stated...Bush said "We don't torture...".
Then this crap. Like just because time has gone by it is less of a crime?
It is all such BS. It was 'thier' False Flag Operation to begin with...
I will consider ourselves very fortunate to have Presidential Elections this November.
What other BS False Flag Operation are 'they' cooking up to get us under Marshall Law?
You all KNOW we have 600 FEMA Camps...right?
Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P-hvPJPTi4
pissed off patricia @ 5:
Not Blackwater. Not at least in the case of Abu Ghraib. There it was CACI International and Titan. And not only were they never held accountable. They got rewarded new contracts.
There is only one thing in the world that should make us tolerate water-boarding and that would be ... if we do it to bush and cheney ... naw, then we should be lowering ourselves to just below the whale shit level of the bush administration..
War Crimes trials start TOMORROW!
pissed off patricia @ 5:
That's easy. They work for MOSSAD.
This isn't actually about "critics," but rather that waterboarding is designated as torture and illegal under international law, including the Geneva Convention. This framing makes it sound as if this is open for debate or just a matter of opinion.
>Ugh, “the homeland.” Can’t we just call it “the country” or “our country”?
And 'waterboarding' what it is: "Attempted murder" (by drowning)
"But I only did it 3 times ... and I was drunk ... at a party....honest"
So, since waterboarding is considered torture and therefore a war crime under the Geneva Conventions, what's the excuse now for not sending Bush and Cheney to The Hague for trial?
Every civilian in Iraq has been tortured.
mam @ 38:
The US is not a signatory on the ICC treaty.
Gerry @ 35:
I love it when people bring up international law. You do know that international law only applies to people in other countries, right? That's why we call it "international." If it applied to Americans, it would be domestic law.
JTM @ 41:
This will have repercussions that the right and other torture supporters won't/can't perceive.
Bush the Liar @ 21:
Its not just exclusive to republicans.
Nonbeliever asks:
"Someone tell my why did we work so hard for a Democratic majority if they won’t hold Bush accountable?"
Because we are f'ing fools and suckers. To quote W.C. Fields, "Never give a sucker an even break."
Proof that we are fools and suckers? Practically every single person I've seen post here at C&L are falling for the Dems B.S. .....AGAIN!!!!
NOTHING WILL CHANGE WITH McCAIN, CLINTON OR OBAMA. PERIOD. Endless war on terrorism, the economy in the shitter, no "meaningful" health care reform (the military industrial complex gets all the LOVE), the continuation of legislating our civil rights away, spying, torture, no habeus corpus and on and f'ing on.
If there was ANY possibility that we could vote for anyone other than who "THEY" choose (we ALL witnessed the obvious media blackout of "certain" candidates), voting would be outlawed. Of course, with the corporate controlled computerized voting machines, they've basically outlawed voting now too! When the people have no control of the voting process or the counting, there IS no election!! Which is why we will have Clinton and McCain in the end. Matters not a bit who we "elect". Duh. None of them can be trusted with the Constitution (which you notice is NEVER mentioned).
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/123/374489576_392aa3e96a_o.jpg
What ? Another attack on the "homeland" ? Keep an eye on Chimp and Dick and crew. The usual suspects.
Abbybwood @ 45:
BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T.
Name ANYTHING you personally did to elect a new Democrat in 2006. No one has yet been able to mention anything.
earl @ 36:
This whole new "Language of the Republicans" that uses terms like "Homeland" & "Patriot Act" (as if that were patriotic to amend our rights) is the shits.
Old Dood @ 30:
Thanks for the link... it's chillingly frightening. Again I ask... WTF??? and yes, homeland does sound very totalitarian, especially in the proverbial land of the free... home of the brave.
A country gone awry.
I totally think Hayden's lying about them just torturing three guys. that sure is convenient that the only 3 guys they tortured all happened to be terrorists and not innocent people like at abu ghraib.
this is such BS.
Colbert had a funny thing last night on Mukasey and what a hypocrit he is for his answers on torture.
http://factbeat.com/get_story.php?id=215
Can Bush & Co. be prosecuted after they leave office?
andy @ 10:
Sig Heil!
MN USA @ 52:
There is no statute of limitations on warcrimes. However, they can be pardoned.
Treason cannot be pardoned, and arguably the pardon of a co-conspirator is not a legal pardon.
He doesn't know what "inevitable" means, viz "impossible to avoid." WTF.
right on! @ 49:
GREAT Link!! Thanks for that. I had heard of this before but never actually saw anything about it other that on-line jabber. This is really the kind of thing we need to be on gaurd about .. All the signs are here, next the brown shirts and then they'll fire up these camps for the "un-patriotic".
Ok so let's see...
The US doesn't 'rendition' people and hold them indefinitely in secret prisons.
But then as it turns out... it does.
The US doesn't torture people.
But as it turns out that's only because they refuse to use the term 'torture' in describing their 'interrogation' techniques.
Eventually one or two of those involved misstep and admit that it might be torture.
So apparently the US does torture.
But it's ok because it was only three people and it was for a good reason. Of course they can't tell you what that might have been.
The second half of this little revelation will tell us that whoops! it seems the number may have been considerably more than three.
Cue the bobblehead brigade to tell us why it's all good.
The same president who put firecrackers up the asses of small animals as a child for fun has now made it standard operation procedure to use torture which has always been deemed unlawful and criminal. Go figure. Dubya is a criminal thug.
MargeAggedon @ 57:
Exactly what I was thinking. Oh but nobody remembers we were lied to.
I've absolutely hated our past few Press Secs, they assume we're idiots.
To Paul in LA:
"Name ANYTHING you personally did to elect a new Democrat in 2006. No one has yet been able to mention anything."
I will admit that all I did in 2006 was to vote for the incumbent Democrat in my district in L.A. But I DID do something in 1992. I actually ran against this particular individual in an open primary. With no money. I came in 3rd out of 7. So at least I tried.
It is damn near impossible to run for Congress anywhere unless you are personally rich or have rich backers. And even if you DO win, especially if you are an Independent, you will have next to no say as to Committee assignments, seniority or having a chance at getting any meaningful legislation out of committee.
My feeling at this time is that the only way to stop the Neocon agenda (which obviously the Democrats have "caught"...just check how they've all voted!), is for individuals such as yourself and any number of people posting on this thread right here, to head down to the Registrar of Voters and get all the papers in order to file as a candidate running as an Independent for Congress for every seat in the House and for whatever Senate seats are up for election.
It's a damn near impossible game to play in many states, especially when you want to challenge an incumbent within the two majors. But I do believe that filing as an Independent would simply be a matter of raising about a thousand bucks then getting a hundred (or however many you need) voter registration forms and going to the local DMV or supermarket or mall and get as many individuals to register as Independents then ask them to sign your papers.
You file everything on time, and before you know it you will be deluged with invitations to attend luncheons, debates, candidate forums etc. If you have some savvy friends/family members then you try to raise the $30k (or whatever it is these days) to do one mass mailing in the district. Suit up and show up for all the debates, look sharp, and surround yourself with people who can help you do the necessary research on "the issues", create a great brochure (preferably with a union bug), have a cool, interactive website etc.
If we could do this nationally with activists such as those on this thread, (especially if we could run on the same slate of issues), there would be a very good chance of succeeding at two things. One, it would get the attention of the establishment that we are ready to stop being mere spectators in the current political scene and two we might get enough people elected by splitting the vote away from the Dems and Repubs to win and at least STOP THE NEOCON AGENDA THAT APPEARS TO BE THE AGENDA OF THE ENTIRE CONGRESS. (Nancy Pelosi on impeachment: "It is OFF the table.")
Anyhow, just some thoughts. It's not that big of a deal when you think about it. Only about 500 seats total are up for grabs in November. Filing deadlines for Independents in most states I believe would be sometime in March. Think about it Paul. Which snake is representing you right now in L.A.?
Can't wait for "homeland" to leave the vernacular. Every time I hear a Republican use it the hair on the back of my neck stands up just a little bit, and I get flashes of "V for Vendetta" and the SS pounding on my door.
MargeAggedon @ 57:
I haven't heard everything that Hayden said, but I haven't heard anything about it being "only" these three people. Was that ever said? I highly doubt that it was since these guys usually know how to walk carefully around the truth.
Abbybwood @ 60:
And there you have it. It's a MYTH.
Waterboarding. It almost sounds like wake boarding or some other fun water sport.
Call things by their proper names, in this case, it's DROWNING PEOPLE...almost.
Abbybwood @ 60 "My feeling at this time is that the only way to stop the Neocon agenda (which obviously the Democrats have "caught"...just check how they've all voted!),"
Those loyal have remained loyal. That it is otherwise is the other myth you are selling.
"individuals such as yourself...file as a candidate running as an Independent for Congress"
I am a lifelong Democrat, and a Nancy Pelosi Democrat at that.
"(Nancy Pelosi on impeachment: "It is OFF the table.")"
Because attempting to convict with 25 votes in the Senate is political suicide.
"Think about it Paul. Which snake is representing you right now in L.A.?"
My representative is loyal Democrat Diane Watson, who supports IMMEDIATE withdrawal from Iraq, and IMMEDIATE impeachment of both B & C. She also supports Speaker Pelosi, because the problem is in the Senate, not the House.
The fastest way to admit independents to Congress is to pass Instant Runoff Voting nationwide (at the state level). I support that.
From what I've read online (and no I don't remember the sources) the US agencies have been torturing for longer than Bush has been in office. Why the surprise? Phone your representatives? Think they don't know? Think if they cared, they would have stopped it by now? Come on. They DON'T CARE! Oh they'll mutter how horrified they are, but they all know it happens and has for a long, long time.
Why are we so f*cking obsessed with having the higher ups admit it's torture? We know it's torture. When it's done to THEM, it's torture. We've been torturing since Vietnam, and probably longer. Don't be such assinine idiots!
Watch any movie based on Vietnam....Heaven and Earth is a good example, and you'll see what we are responsible for. Our military/CIA have been torturing as long as there has been an opportunity. Damn, I'm tired of this dialogue.
It's torture. We know it's torture. We DO IT!! We HAVE DONE IT!! We do NOT abide by the Geneva Convention. We NEVER HAVE abided by the Geneva Convention. Wake up and smell the roses.
If for some weird ass reason you think "we are above that sort of thing", you are one naiive idiot. I saw it first hand in Vietnam. We DID cut off ears, shove balls in their mouths, toss them out of helicopters. You think we didn't? I have a bridge I'd like to sell you in Brooklyn.
Tens of THOUSANDS of detainees (kidnap victims) have been tortured, extreme renditioned to hellholes that Bushco has as allies.
The US admitted using white phosphorus on Fallujans, which is a crime against humanity. Shock & Awe was a crime against humanity. The whole airbase installation exercise in Iraq is GENOCIDE, and as such includes everything from torture to the destruction of culture on a grand scale.
Three cases of 'waterboarding'-- figure in the TORTURE being endured/to be endured by a half-million U.S. vets -- one of the biggest crimes in history.
HulksHeroes @ 67:
That is untrue. You can find no major Geneva Conventions violations during the Second World War. Since that time the Pentagon has been nearly out-of-control.
We have several laws against torture -- the Geneva Conventions Article 3 restrictions are just one example.
ConcernedCanuck @ 66:
You're an outsider in any case. Your role as a negator of the value of political activism is quite obvious. What makes you not a troll?
Spreading negativity to hinder the actions of others, and doing NOTHING yourself. What clownishness.
I protest again today in an hour. I have protested thousands of hours in my lifetime, and 650+ since 2002. A lot of us are FIGHTERS, and yeah, these historical forces are wicked hard to oppose. What we really need is some Canadian who can't wait to rush in and tell us that it's a waste of time to work against those forces. And the only thing that bothers me is the PRETENSE that you're doing us a favor or are on the side of the truth.
Come on down and face off on the racists and warmongers with the street protesters some time. We'll find you a sign.
MrHooper @ 62:
And then make sure that no one dare use the word "LIE" when referring to their "careful side stepping" of the truth.
Paul in LA @ 69:
Paul, the US and it's allies bombed civilians. Repeatedly during WW2. THAT is against Geneva Conventions. The US bombed civilian targets in Haiti, Vietnam, El Salvadore, Iraq, etc, etc......all against Geneva conventions....they are called "soft targets" and yes, the US and her allies have bombed em all even during WW2.
Paul in LA @ 70:
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Still don't belong to ONE party, and ignore everything it does. That makes me a troll? Nope. It makes whoever does that, idiotic. Last time I checked, the C&L rules does not state that only American opinions are allowed, or is this a new rule? And people like you have the nerve to ask "why do they hate us?"
ConcernedCanuck @ 73:
Forgot to ask. Doesn't Pelosi have something for you to shovel right now?
HulksHeroes @ 67:
Thanks for the confirmation. Yes, we, the only super-power, are the new Nazis. And who would have seen this coming? (Probably not Condi Rice.) Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
We need international institutions like the UN and the ICC.
We have tortured ("harsh interrogation," my ass) many, many people (way more than 3) with waterboarding, stress positions, hypothermia, sexual humiliation, etc. IN ADDITION TO STARTING AN UNNECESSARY WAR TO PROMOTE EMPIRE AND KILLING OVER 1 MILLION CIVILIANS.
FUCK.
What is wrong with our congress? We are on the wrong track, and if we can't turn this thing around, lets at least stop proceeding with this shit.
The security of Der Faderland is no excuse.
Paul in LA @ 69:
Paul, what about the firebombing of Tokyo? I thought deliberately targeting the civilian population with incendiaries was a war crime.
In his documentary, The Fog of War, McNamara talks about a conversation with Lemay, in which they conclude that they would be charged with War Crimes because of the Tokyo firebombing IF the US lost.
But, but...we don't torture! I heard that from Busholini himself.
So now we admit it, we tortured people. Terrorist or now, why am I not seeing people going to prison? Oh yea thats right they fired all of the attorneys who might do that...
Paul in LA @ 69:
You obviously don't do any reading. Just finished a book on the life of Stephan something-or-other, a young journalist killed in that pitiful excuse of a war, the Vietnam War. Read that one and you'll see enough examples of crimes we committed in direct violation of the Geneva Convention in Vietnam.
Naill Fergusson's "The War of the Worlds", multiple examples of attrocities committed by American forces all throughout history, but certainly during the first and second world wars....gas, prisoner executing, etc, etc.
I get so upset at people who stick their heads in the sand and murmur "everything is fine, everything is fine", instead of facing what reality is and dealing with it.
This "greatest nation in the world" is just a bullshit slogan. It's what we have, but far from 'greatest" status. Shameful might be a better descriptor. Look at our meddling in Central and South America. We are responsible for more torturing and murder/mutilation/rape and plunder than you can even imagine.
Ignoramouses! Go to sleep now.
HulksHeroes @ 78:
We definitely abided by the Geneva Convention in Somalia.
Paul in LA @ 65:
Paul, you seem like an intelligent person and I respect a lot of what you have to say, like your support of Instant Runoff Voting, but I can't respect you Party Branding. IMO that's one of the major reasons why we're in this mess and the major thing preventing IRV from being implemented.
Paul in LA @ 68:
The only way it could be "political suicide" to Impeach Bush/Cheney after "one of the biggest crimes in history" is if Nancy is a criminal too.
Paul in LA @ 70:
OK, where are you at? I live in LA and have my own signs. I think we would have an interesting dialog, and we might even learn something from one another.
Off the Net and into the Streets. I like it.
He's lying of course. If they wanted to know who was behind the attacks, all they had to do was waterboard Cheney, Feith, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz. Talk about distracting the public. That is, those who are fool enough to be distracted.
Bill Clinton told some 9-11 truthers in NH that they "were nuts", that it was just the 19 Arabs. Waterboard him.
As far as I can figure, "the homeland" must refer to our 50 states...in the newspeak. The "country" on the other hand, will soon consist of the entire North American continent (including Canada and Mexico) but our 50 states will from now on be referred to as "the homeland". Welcome to the 21st century!
Torture and the Twilight of Empire: From Algiers to Baghdad, Human Rights and Crimes against Humanity By Marnia Lazreg
Bibliographic Data: Hardcover, 320 Pages, Princeton University Press, December 2007
Author: Lazreg, Marnia
List Price: $29.95
Status: In Print
ISBN: 069113135X
Description: "This book interprets torture not as an incidental if frequent characteristic of neocolonial conflict, but as one of its major elements. Using the Algerian war as a case study, Lazreg argues that to the French forces the psychological and political significance of their policy of torture was far greater than its operational significance. Her work is certainly pertinent to the present."--Peter Paret, Institute for Advanced Study
"The premise of this book is excellent. Lazreg seeks to link the extensive use of torture to the demise of empire by means of two case studies, France in Algeria and the United States in Iraq. Her analysis is a theoretical psychohistory in which she uses her archival research to extrapolate on the psychology that motivates the torturer and to theorize about state terror."--Patricia Lorcin, University of Minnesota
One always has to parse the Republican word-perverters and spin-merchants.
Hayden said that the CIA has stopped using waterboarding, and besides the CIA only did it to three suspects years ago. The Pentagon has said it doesn't waterboard. So, too, has the FBI denied waterboarding.
Hmmmm, what's missing from these statements?
Oh, no mention is made of whether or not private contract security firms are still waterboarding suspects at some of these secret overseas locations. And what about secret rendition of suspects to countries that torture?
In other words, all the Bush administration officials had done is outsource waterboarding to non-governmental "lawless" corporations and foreign governments, with the waterboarding of suspects still being done at the behest of the culture of corruption Bush administration...while the the propagandists in the Bush administration narrowly state that the CIA no longers does waterboarding.
Waterboarding is Torture.
What most people are not getting is that this goes to the very heart of the events of 9/11.
The confessions for 9/11 by these three that went into the 9/11 (C)Omission Report were taken as gold. However, anybody who knows anything about torture knows that the person getting tortured isn't going to say the truth - they'll say what the interrogator wants them to say, just to stop the torture.
Between the bin Laden "confession video" and the fact Mohammed's "confession" came from waterboarding, it's all bullshit.
What the F*** is it with these treasonous bastards??? It's called the United States of America NOT the homeland you scum sucking America hating POS!!! They just can't give up their Nazi ways can they!
Why can't we have decent journalism? What is up with this statement:
Waterboarding is an interrogation technique that critics call torture.--CBS
Oh, just the critics? Of what? Torture or the Bush administration? So, only "critics" see what has been defined as torture for centuries torture? Do any of the people care about international law, human rights, Geneva, etc???
Impeachment!
Impeachment!
Impeachment!
Nothing will change without Impeachment! The military/national security state will continue to torture in the next administration unless impeachment takes place now.
equilibrio @ 81I can't respect you[r] Party Branding. IMO that's one of the major reasons why we're in this mess and the major thing preventing IRV from being implemented."
Those are totally different issues. Most Progressives, and that includes Speaker Pelosi, support IRV. The open primary in CA is a result of Dem party support. IRV is one of the best ways to expand the electorate on the DTS side. Naturally, the party itself would be inclined against such, but that's more than just the Progressive side.
"The only way it could be "political suicide" to Impeach Bush/Cheney after "one of the biggest crimes in history" is if Nancy is a criminal too."
That's an asinine statement. With 25 votes Yea for conviction during a coup, running it up the flagpole just to make you happy was not a good idea.
Find ONE Republican Senator who supports impeachment (and no, Arlen Spector's romance with his own illusions doesn't count). Find Republicans in the public who are protesting their officials. Find the FBI investigating and indicting these criminals for their many crimes. Find the JD supporting Congressional subpoenas, including the subpoena of the RNC for vote caging (the reason Gonzales and Rove resigned).
You cannot, and the reason behind your failure to find that is the same reason behind Speaker Pelosi's refusal to slap the tiger in the hope that it will look stunned and go away.
HulksHeroes @ 79:
A reference to Fergusson's tract is not a factual offering. As a columnist for the Tribune's Liesangeles Times, he did not endear himself. As a historian, he is fond of fantasy. You extended my statement to include the first world war, and you also included Vietnam, because you do not have any actual factual offering for large-scale Geneva Convention violations during WWII.
Fergusson also supported the Iraq Invasion. No thanks, I'll get history from less scurrilous sources.
Lord have mercy.
It's chimpy's world and he can fuck it up anyway he wants. How many times can the ACLU get kicked in its teeth before they call a spade a spade?
Waterboarding is definitely TORTURE. How dare these dumbasses compare waterboarding to getting water bubbles up their noses.
This is all the evidence the ACLU needs to throw these arrogant law breakers under the jail.
Geneva convention covers things like treatment of sick and wounded solider forces, prisoners of war, and civilians in a war zone. The later wasn't adopted until 1949.
The issue here is treatment of prisoners of war. Which U.S. is calling them criminals. But by not bringing them into the U.S. it's justified not to permit them due process.
There were atrocities committed by U.S. forces in prior conflicts. My Lai is probably the best known example. Difference now is the Bush administration is trying to rationalize and defend those acts.
Your government is evil.
max
peaceful easy feeling @ 7:
Silly, silly!
Geneva Conventions numbers 3 and 4 sealed that deal A.LONG.TIME.AGO!
This issue was argued and vindicated when we prosecuted the Japanese following the Hague trials at Nuremberg. Our Senate ratified BOTH Convention terms, thus making the use of torture and inhumane treatment of prisoners of war/military conflict, a Constitutional Law to boot! We then Court Martialed one of our own service men during the Vietnam War/military conflict for the very act of "WATERBOARDING".
Precedent has been set, ALREADY!
Investigate - Impeach - Indite - Imprison!
.
so you say. Then even the act of holding a prisoner could be considered inhumane. Lots of things are inhumane if you ponder and linger on the subject for to long. Could there have been a variance under special circumstances? Dont know and neither do I. I cannot sympathize with someone who is most definitely associating with extremists without permission or authorization. Sorry. Your arguments are persausive though. And that means all of your arguments. We need to be hard and you are right coerced confessions are no good, but coereced info can be a great contribution. Reinforced with actual person to person contact after you have names. Get the leads then pursue the proof that yes, they are planning to kill us.
MAX @ 97:
I'll second that!
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I did not see Saddam Hussien's name on the list...!??
You would have thought that torturing Saddam to find out where the ticking WMD in Iraq was. Like a priority for Bush's so called WMD proof.
Bangkok Bob @ 56:
So true. If you 'liked' that link then click on my name.
Listen and view the interviews there. Read the 'What's New' section.
Check out the info also on the Minot AFB Nuke BS.
Why has THAT disappeared out of the MSM?
No effin way our Military could make that 'mistake' with all of it's so-called 'Fail Safes' in place.
I am not a Conspiracy Theorist. I am a Realist.
To many 'things' have happened to be 'Theory' anymore.
We are being lied to on so many levels it is staggering.
Paul in LA @ 40:
Damn Straight. The U.S. doesn't sign shit. We can do whatever the hell we want. It's called Freedom baby!
The use of the term "homeland" is highly offensive to me. It's a code word for some serious Nazi shit is coming your way.
We're a rogue nation with no regard for human rights or justice.
How do you like yourself NOW, America.
"Waterboarding is an interrogation technique that critics call torture"
Critics such as the UN, virtually every other western country etc., We, the Dutch used it in the 16th and 17th century on deserters on VOC ships before keelhauling them , it was used by the Inquisition during middle ages... You would not want to be known as America, Land of the Torturers, now would you?
Besides one could also call waterboarding forced drowning; it sais so much more about what is being done to the patient...
Gee, "danger to the homeland". Remind you of anyone in the 30's in Germany talking about the "homeland"? The people are nothing but fascist terrorist themselves. We signed the Geneva Convention but, never mind, the nazi's of the republiCON party have spoken.
It was called the Fatherland by Hitler, but I always felt queasy about how Homeland sounded similar. We could have stuck w/the original name, Civil Defense, but man, that is soo yesterday!
When we ratify a treaty, it becomes the law of OUR land.
Torture. Suspension of Habeas. Preemptive (conquering) war. Who is it that has the Medieval mindset, exactly??
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